Sam Lowry said:
"Real, true, and actual."
If you have to troll your way through this, what does that say about your beliefs?
Just admit you're wrong, sheesh.
Pope Leo is one of the Catholic Church's biggest problems
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Last: 18 min ago by BusyTarpDuster2017
If you have to troll your way through this, what does that say about your beliefs?
Just admit you're wrong, sheesh.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:
"Real, true, and actual."
If you have to troll your way through this, what does that say about your beliefs?
Just admit you're wrong, sheesh.
You're right. Who am I, of all people, to tell you what I believe?
Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:
"Real, true, and actual."
If you have to troll your way through this, what does that say about your beliefs?
Just admit you're wrong, sheesh.
You're right.
Thank you.
Would any other (honest) Roman Catholic like to engage my argument?
Any takers, who wants to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
Sic 'em Bears and Go Birds
BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
Sic 'em Bears and Go Birds
BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
I submit to Rome.
Sic 'em Bears and Go Birds
BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
I submit to Rome.
Which means what, regarding what I asked?
Are you afraid to have this discussion? Is that why you're being evasive?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
I submit to Rome.
Which means what, regarding what I asked?
Are you afraid to have this discussion? Is that why you're being evasive?
Lmao, what do you think it means?
Your reading comprehension is poor. No wonder you misinterpreted Augustine's writings!
Sic 'em Bears and Go Birds
BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
I submit to Rome.
Which means what, regarding what I asked?
Are you afraid to have this discussion? Is that why you're being evasive?
Lmao, what do you think it means?
Your reading comprehension is poor. No wonder you misinterpreted Augustine's writings!
What I think it means is not what I asked. I asked what YOU think that means.specifically in regard to the question I asked: do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross? You say you "submit to Rome". Does that mean you acknowledge all that to be true?
Apparently, it was your reading comprehension that failed there, wasn't it?
Coke Bear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
1) Anyone who does not believe in transubstantiation can't be a Roman Catholic, and by not being Roman Catholic they are anathematized.
2) Any Roman Catholic who denies transubstantiation is anathematized.
3) An anathema, by the Roman Catholic Church's own definition, is complete separation from God.
You acknowledged all these things are true, even though you specifically argued that "anathemas don't exist anymore". Why you can't have the humility and honesty to acknowledge what transpired above, that you had to go against what you had just argued and admit what I said was true, I don't know. That's your issue, not mine.
You are very hung up on a Canonical penalty that it no longer enforced.
We're going round and round.
Let's back up. Please provide me what you think Catholic definition of the Real Presence and Transubstantiation.
I'll go first using the Catechism of the Catholic Church
Real Presence
1374 The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend." In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained." "This presence is called 'real' - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be 'real' too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."
Transubstantiation
1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."
TLDR;
Real Presence is the fact that Jesus is fully present (body, blood, soul, divinity) in the Eucharist
Transubstantiation is the explanation of how this occurs: the substance of bread/wine changes into Christ's body/blood, while appearances remain.
I'm struggling to determine why you are so hung up on "anathema" and "Transubstantiation."
CokeBear, care to enter the discussion? What do you say? Is the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" that the Eucharist bread becomes the same body that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same body that was sacrificed on the cross? Based on what you said above, it seems like your Church is saying "yes". Is that correct?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
I submit to Rome.
Which means what, regarding what I asked?
Are you afraid to have this discussion? Is that why you're being evasive?
Lmao, what do you think it means?
Your reading comprehension is poor. No wonder you misinterpreted Augustine's writings!
What I think it means is not what I asked. I asked what YOU think that means.specifically in regard to the question I asked: do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross? You say you "submit to Rome". Does that mean you acknowledge all that to be true?
Apparently, it was your reading comprehension that failed there, wasn't it?
It's the weekend, no one has time to hold your hand through another theological debate. You know the view of the Church, and you know (most) Catholics submit to that view.
Here's what my home Parish thinks about the Eucharist. And fun fact, this church has been maintained by Augustine Friars since 1796, in fact it's the oldest permanent establishment of the Augustinian Order in The United States.
https://www.st-augustinechurch.com/eucharist
Sic 'em Bears and Go Birds
BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
I submit to Rome.
Which means what, regarding what I asked?
Are you afraid to have this discussion? Is that why you're being evasive?
Lmao, what do you think it means?
Your reading comprehension is poor. No wonder you misinterpreted Augustine's writings!
What I think it means is not what I asked. I asked what YOU think that means.specifically in regard to the question I asked: do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross? You say you "submit to Rome". Does that mean you acknowledge all that to be true?
Apparently, it was your reading comprehension that failed there, wasn't it?
It's the weekend, no one has time to hold your hand through another theological debate. You know the view of the Church, and you know (most) Catholics submit to that view.
Here's what my home Parish thinks about the Eucharist. And fun fact, this church has been maintained by Augustine Friars since 1796, in fact it's the oldest permanent establishment of the Augustinian Order in The United States.
https://www.st-augustinechurch.com/eucharist
Ok, let's try it this way: I'm going to assert that the answer to my question is YES. You fully acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" in the Eucharist is that the bread and wine become the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood of Jesus that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper when Jesus said "This is my body", the same flesh and blood that were crucified on the cross.
Am I correct on my assertion? Simple yes or no.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
I submit to Rome.
Which means what, regarding what I asked?
Are you afraid to have this discussion? Is that why you're being evasive?
Lmao, what do you think it means?
Your reading comprehension is poor. No wonder you misinterpreted Augustine's writings!
What I think it means is not what I asked. I asked what YOU think that means.specifically in regard to the question I asked: do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross? You say you "submit to Rome". Does that mean you acknowledge all that to be true?
Apparently, it was your reading comprehension that failed there, wasn't it?
It's the weekend, no one has time to hold your hand through another theological debate. You know the view of the Church, and you know (most) Catholics submit to that view.
Here's what my home Parish thinks about the Eucharist. And fun fact, this church has been maintained by Augustine Friars since 1796, in fact it's the oldest permanent establishment of the Augustinian Order in The United States.
https://www.st-augustinechurch.com/eucharist
Ok, let's try it this way: I'm going to assert that the answer to my question is YES. You fully acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" in the Eucharist is that the bread and wine become the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood of Jesus that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper when Jesus said "This is my body", the same flesh and blood that were crucified on the cross.
Am I correct on my assertion? Simple yes or no.
Yep. The substance of the bread and wine transform into the body and blood, but remain under the appearance of bread and wine.
Sic 'em Bears and Go Birds
BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
I submit to Rome.
Which means what, regarding what I asked?
Are you afraid to have this discussion? Is that why you're being evasive?
Lmao, what do you think it means?
Your reading comprehension is poor. No wonder you misinterpreted Augustine's writings!
What I think it means is not what I asked. I asked what YOU think that means.specifically in regard to the question I asked: do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross? You say you "submit to Rome". Does that mean you acknowledge all that to be true?
Apparently, it was your reading comprehension that failed there, wasn't it?
It's the weekend, no one has time to hold your hand through another theological debate. You know the view of the Church, and you know (most) Catholics submit to that view.
Here's what my home Parish thinks about the Eucharist. And fun fact, this church has been maintained by Augustine Friars since 1796, in fact it's the oldest permanent establishment of the Augustinian Order in The United States.
https://www.st-augustinechurch.com/eucharist
Ok, let's try it this way: I'm going to assert that the answer to my question is YES. You fully acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" in the Eucharist is that the bread and wine become the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood of Jesus that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper when Jesus said "This is my body", the same flesh and blood that were crucified on the cross.
Am I correct on my assertion? Simple yes or no.
Yep. The substance of the bread and wine transform into the body and blood, but remain under the appearance of bread and wine.
Okay. Now read Augustine's words:
"What seemed difficult to them was his saying, "Unless a man eat my flesh, he will not have eternal life." They understood it foolishly. They thought in a carnal way and supposed that the Lord was going to cut off some pieces of this body and give the pieces to them. And they said, "This is a hard saying." They were the ones who were hard, not the saying. For the twelve disciples remained with him, and when the others left, they pointed out to him that those who had been scandalized by what he had said had left. But he instructed them and said to them, "It is the spirit which gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and life." Understand what I have said spiritually. You are not going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed. I have given you a sacrament. Understood spiritually, it will give you life. Although it must be celebrated visibly yet it should be understood invisibly." Translated by J.E. Tweed. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 8. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1888.)
Note the bold part. Augustine clearly believes that the body that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper, and the body and blood that were crucified on the cross, is NOT what is eaten in the Eucharist. Therefore, Augustine does NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence".
End of debate. Right?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
I submit to Rome.
Which means what, regarding what I asked?
Are you afraid to have this discussion? Is that why you're being evasive?
Lmao, what do you think it means?
Your reading comprehension is poor. No wonder you misinterpreted Augustine's writings!
What I think it means is not what I asked. I asked what YOU think that means.specifically in regard to the question I asked: do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross? You say you "submit to Rome". Does that mean you acknowledge all that to be true?
Apparently, it was your reading comprehension that failed there, wasn't it?
It's the weekend, no one has time to hold your hand through another theological debate. You know the view of the Church, and you know (most) Catholics submit to that view.
Here's what my home Parish thinks about the Eucharist. And fun fact, this church has been maintained by Augustine Friars since 1796, in fact it's the oldest permanent establishment of the Augustinian Order in The United States.
https://www.st-augustinechurch.com/eucharist
Ok, let's try it this way: I'm going to assert that the answer to my question is YES. You fully acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" in the Eucharist is that the bread and wine become the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood of Jesus that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper when Jesus said "This is my body", the same flesh and blood that were crucified on the cross.
Am I correct on my assertion? Simple yes or no.
Yep. The substance of the bread and wine transform into the body and blood, but remain under the appearance of bread and wine.
Okay. Now read Augustine's words:
"What seemed difficult to them was his saying, "Unless a man eat my flesh, he will not have eternal life." They understood it foolishly. They thought in a carnal way and supposed that the Lord was going to cut off some pieces of this body and give the pieces to them. And they said, "This is a hard saying." They were the ones who were hard, not the saying. For the twelve disciples remained with him, and when the others left, they pointed out to him that those who had been scandalized by what he had said had left. But he instructed them and said to them, "It is the spirit which gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and life." Understand what I have said spiritually. You are not going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed. I have given you a sacrament. Understood spiritually, it will give you life. Although it must be celebrated visibly yet it should be understood invisibly." Translated by J.E. Tweed. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 8. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1888.)
Note the bold part. Augustine clearly believes that the body that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper, and the body and blood that were crucified on the cross, is NOT what is eaten in the Eucharist. Therefore, Augustine does NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence".
End of debate. Right?
Nope. This quote is addressing physical cannibalism; some people thought early Christian's were eating actual flesh. Augustine wanted to prevent a misunderstanding so he explained how Christ was present in the Eucharist.
Sic 'em Bears and Go Birds
BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
I submit to Rome.
Which means what, regarding what I asked?
Are you afraid to have this discussion? Is that why you're being evasive?
Lmao, what do you think it means?
Your reading comprehension is poor. No wonder you misinterpreted Augustine's writings!
What I think it means is not what I asked. I asked what YOU think that means.specifically in regard to the question I asked: do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross? You say you "submit to Rome". Does that mean you acknowledge all that to be true?
Apparently, it was your reading comprehension that failed there, wasn't it?
It's the weekend, no one has time to hold your hand through another theological debate. You know the view of the Church, and you know (most) Catholics submit to that view.
Here's what my home Parish thinks about the Eucharist. And fun fact, this church has been maintained by Augustine Friars since 1796, in fact it's the oldest permanent establishment of the Augustinian Order in The United States.
https://www.st-augustinechurch.com/eucharist
Ok, let's try it this way: I'm going to assert that the answer to my question is YES. You fully acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" in the Eucharist is that the bread and wine become the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood of Jesus that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper when Jesus said "This is my body", the same flesh and blood that were crucified on the cross.
Am I correct on my assertion? Simple yes or no.
Yep. The substance of the bread and wine transform into the body and blood, but remain under the appearance of bread and wine.
Okay. Now read Augustine's words:
"What seemed difficult to them was his saying, "Unless a man eat my flesh, he will not have eternal life." They understood it foolishly. They thought in a carnal way and supposed that the Lord was going to cut off some pieces of this body and give the pieces to them. And they said, "This is a hard saying." They were the ones who were hard, not the saying. For the twelve disciples remained with him, and when the others left, they pointed out to him that those who had been scandalized by what he had said had left. But he instructed them and said to them, "It is the spirit which gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and life." Understand what I have said spiritually. You are not going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed. I have given you a sacrament. Understood spiritually, it will give you life. Although it must be celebrated visibly yet it should be understood invisibly." Translated by J.E. Tweed. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 8. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1888.)
Note the bold part. Augustine clearly believes that the body that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper, and the body and blood that were crucified on the cross, is NOT what is eaten in the Eucharist. Therefore, Augustine does NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence".
End of debate. Right?
Nope. This quote is addressing physical cannibalism; some people thought early Christian's were eating actual flesh. Augustine wanted to prevent a misunderstanding so he explained how Christ was present in the Eucharist.
See? You're brainwashed.
Let's go through this with baby steps:
1. The Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" is that the Eucharist bread is the same body that they see, and the wine is the same blood that was shed on the cross.
2. Augustine EXPLICITLY states that you are NOT going to eat the body that you see, and you are NOT going to drink the blood that is shed on the cross.
Agreed?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
I submit to Rome.
Which means what, regarding what I asked?
Are you afraid to have this discussion? Is that why you're being evasive?
Lmao, what do you think it means?
Your reading comprehension is poor. No wonder you misinterpreted Augustine's writings!
What I think it means is not what I asked. I asked what YOU think that means.specifically in regard to the question I asked: do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross? You say you "submit to Rome". Does that mean you acknowledge all that to be true?
Apparently, it was your reading comprehension that failed there, wasn't it?
It's the weekend, no one has time to hold your hand through another theological debate. You know the view of the Church, and you know (most) Catholics submit to that view.
Here's what my home Parish thinks about the Eucharist. And fun fact, this church has been maintained by Augustine Friars since 1796, in fact it's the oldest permanent establishment of the Augustinian Order in The United States.
https://www.st-augustinechurch.com/eucharist
Ok, let's try it this way: I'm going to assert that the answer to my question is YES. You fully acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" in the Eucharist is that the bread and wine become the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood of Jesus that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper when Jesus said "This is my body", the same flesh and blood that were crucified on the cross.
Am I correct on my assertion? Simple yes or no.
Yep. The substance of the bread and wine transform into the body and blood, but remain under the appearance of bread and wine.
Okay. Now read Augustine's words:
"What seemed difficult to them was his saying, "Unless a man eat my flesh, he will not have eternal life." They understood it foolishly. They thought in a carnal way and supposed that the Lord was going to cut off some pieces of this body and give the pieces to them. And they said, "This is a hard saying." They were the ones who were hard, not the saying. For the twelve disciples remained with him, and when the others left, they pointed out to him that those who had been scandalized by what he had said had left. But he instructed them and said to them, "It is the spirit which gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and life." Understand what I have said spiritually. You are not going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed. I have given you a sacrament. Understood spiritually, it will give you life. Although it must be celebrated visibly yet it should be understood invisibly." Translated by J.E. Tweed. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 8. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1888.)
Note the bold part. Augustine clearly believes that the body that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper, and the body and blood that were crucified on the cross, is NOT what is eaten in the Eucharist. Therefore, Augustine does NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence".
End of debate. Right?
Nope. This quote is addressing physical cannibalism; some people thought early Christian's were eating actual flesh. Augustine wanted to prevent a misunderstanding so he explained how Christ was present in the Eucharist.
See? You're brainwashed.
Let's go through this with baby steps:
1. The Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" is that the Eucharist bread is the same body that they see, and the wine is the same blood that was shed on the cross.
2. Augustine EXPLICITLY states that you are NOT going to eat the body that you see, and you are NOT going to drink the blood that is shed on the cross.
Agreed?
I would also be confused if I didn't understand the context. But you're willfully ignorant.
The idea of Real Presence became more precise from Augustine to Transubstantiation. He said you won't eat human flesh but he believed Christ was active in the Eucharist. His view of the Eucharist is consistent of Church teaching. It's fairly simple. It's truly astonishing you haven't grasped it yet.
Sic 'em Bears and Go Birds
BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
I submit to Rome.
Which means what, regarding what I asked?
Are you afraid to have this discussion? Is that why you're being evasive?
Lmao, what do you think it means?
Your reading comprehension is poor. No wonder you misinterpreted Augustine's writings!
What I think it means is not what I asked. I asked what YOU think that means.specifically in regard to the question I asked: do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross? You say you "submit to Rome". Does that mean you acknowledge all that to be true?
Apparently, it was your reading comprehension that failed there, wasn't it?
It's the weekend, no one has time to hold your hand through another theological debate. You know the view of the Church, and you know (most) Catholics submit to that view.
Here's what my home Parish thinks about the Eucharist. And fun fact, this church has been maintained by Augustine Friars since 1796, in fact it's the oldest permanent establishment of the Augustinian Order in The United States.
https://www.st-augustinechurch.com/eucharist
Ok, let's try it this way: I'm going to assert that the answer to my question is YES. You fully acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" in the Eucharist is that the bread and wine become the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood of Jesus that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper when Jesus said "This is my body", the same flesh and blood that were crucified on the cross.
Am I correct on my assertion? Simple yes or no.
Yep. The substance of the bread and wine transform into the body and blood, but remain under the appearance of bread and wine.
Okay. Now read Augustine's words:
"What seemed difficult to them was his saying, "Unless a man eat my flesh, he will not have eternal life." They understood it foolishly. They thought in a carnal way and supposed that the Lord was going to cut off some pieces of this body and give the pieces to them. And they said, "This is a hard saying." They were the ones who were hard, not the saying. For the twelve disciples remained with him, and when the others left, they pointed out to him that those who had been scandalized by what he had said had left. But he instructed them and said to them, "It is the spirit which gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and life." Understand what I have said spiritually. You are not going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed. I have given you a sacrament. Understood spiritually, it will give you life. Although it must be celebrated visibly yet it should be understood invisibly." Translated by J.E. Tweed. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 8. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1888.)
Note the bold part. Augustine clearly believes that the body that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper, and the body and blood that were crucified on the cross, is NOT what is eaten in the Eucharist. Therefore, Augustine does NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence".
End of debate. Right?
Nope. This quote is addressing physical cannibalism; some people thought early Christian's were eating actual flesh. Augustine wanted to prevent a misunderstanding so he explained how Christ was present in the Eucharist.
See? You're brainwashed.
Let's go through this with baby steps:
1. The Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" is that the Eucharist bread is the same body that they see, and the wine is the same blood that was shed on the cross.
2. Augustine EXPLICITLY states that you are NOT going to eat the body that you see, and you are NOT going to drink the blood that is shed on the cross.
Agreed?
I would also be confused if I didn't understand the context. But you're willfully ignorant.
The idea of Real Presence became more precise from Augustine to Transubstantiation. He said you won't eat human flesh but he believed Christ was active in the Eucharist. His view of the Eucharist is consistent of Church teaching. It's fairly simple. It's truly astonishing you haven't grasped it yet.
I've given you the ENTIRE context of that quote.
I'm just asking for an answer to my question - do you agree with those baby steps I gave?
I mean….super simple
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
I submit to Rome.
Which means what, regarding what I asked?
Are you afraid to have this discussion? Is that why you're being evasive?
Lmao, what do you think it means?
Your reading comprehension is poor. No wonder you misinterpreted Augustine's writings!
What I think it means is not what I asked. I asked what YOU think that means.specifically in regard to the question I asked: do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross? You say you "submit to Rome". Does that mean you acknowledge all that to be true?
Apparently, it was your reading comprehension that failed there, wasn't it?
It's the weekend, no one has time to hold your hand through another theological debate. You know the view of the Church, and you know (most) Catholics submit to that view.
Here's what my home Parish thinks about the Eucharist. And fun fact, this church has been maintained by Augustine Friars since 1796, in fact it's the oldest permanent establishment of the Augustinian Order in The United States.
https://www.st-augustinechurch.com/eucharist
Ok, let's try it this way: I'm going to assert that the answer to my question is YES. You fully acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" in the Eucharist is that the bread and wine become the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood of Jesus that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper when Jesus said "This is my body", the same flesh and blood that were crucified on the cross.
Am I correct on my assertion? Simple yes or no.
Yep. The substance of the bread and wine transform into the body and blood, but remain under the appearance of bread and wine.
Okay. Now read Augustine's words:
"What seemed difficult to them was his saying, "Unless a man eat my flesh, he will not have eternal life." They understood it foolishly. They thought in a carnal way and supposed that the Lord was going to cut off some pieces of this body and give the pieces to them. And they said, "This is a hard saying." They were the ones who were hard, not the saying. For the twelve disciples remained with him, and when the others left, they pointed out to him that those who had been scandalized by what he had said had left. But he instructed them and said to them, "It is the spirit which gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and life." Understand what I have said spiritually. You are not going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed. I have given you a sacrament. Understood spiritually, it will give you life. Although it must be celebrated visibly yet it should be understood invisibly." Translated by J.E. Tweed. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 8. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1888.)
Note the bold part. Augustine clearly believes that the body that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper, and the body and blood that were crucified on the cross, is NOT what is eaten in the Eucharist. Therefore, Augustine does NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence".
End of debate. Right?
Nope. This quote is addressing physical cannibalism; some people thought early Christian's were eating actual flesh. Augustine wanted to prevent a misunderstanding so he explained how Christ was present in the Eucharist.
See? You're brainwashed.
Let's go through this with baby steps:
1. The Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" is that the Eucharist bread is the same body that they see, and the wine is the same blood that was shed on the cross.
2. Augustine EXPLICITLY states that you are NOT going to eat the body that you see, and you are NOT going to drink the blood that is shed on the cross.
Agreed?
I would also be confused if I didn't understand the context. But you're willfully ignorant.
The idea of Real Presence became more precise from Augustine to Transubstantiation. He said you won't eat human flesh but he believed Christ was active in the Eucharist. His view of the Eucharist is consistent of Church teaching. It's fairly simple. It's truly astonishing you haven't grasped it yet.
I've given you the ENTIRE context of that quote.
I'm just asking for an answer to my question - do you agree with those baby steps I gave?
No. I gave YOU the baby steps. You ignored it as usual, as your hate for Catholicism has blinded you.
Sic 'em Bears and Go Birds
Pretty sure I just heard a deep heavy sigh from the Holy Ghost.
BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
I submit to Rome.
Which means what, regarding what I asked?
Are you afraid to have this discussion? Is that why you're being evasive?
Lmao, what do you think it means?
Your reading comprehension is poor. No wonder you misinterpreted Augustine's writings!
What I think it means is not what I asked. I asked what YOU think that means.specifically in regard to the question I asked: do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross? You say you "submit to Rome". Does that mean you acknowledge all that to be true?
Apparently, it was your reading comprehension that failed there, wasn't it?
It's the weekend, no one has time to hold your hand through another theological debate. You know the view of the Church, and you know (most) Catholics submit to that view.
Here's what my home Parish thinks about the Eucharist. And fun fact, this church has been maintained by Augustine Friars since 1796, in fact it's the oldest permanent establishment of the Augustinian Order in The United States.
https://www.st-augustinechurch.com/eucharist
Ok, let's try it this way: I'm going to assert that the answer to my question is YES. You fully acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" in the Eucharist is that the bread and wine become the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood of Jesus that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper when Jesus said "This is my body", the same flesh and blood that were crucified on the cross.
Am I correct on my assertion? Simple yes or no.
Yep. The substance of the bread and wine transform into the body and blood, but remain under the appearance of bread and wine.
Okay. Now read Augustine's words:
"What seemed difficult to them was his saying, "Unless a man eat my flesh, he will not have eternal life." They understood it foolishly. They thought in a carnal way and supposed that the Lord was going to cut off some pieces of this body and give the pieces to them. And they said, "This is a hard saying." They were the ones who were hard, not the saying. For the twelve disciples remained with him, and when the others left, they pointed out to him that those who had been scandalized by what he had said had left. But he instructed them and said to them, "It is the spirit which gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and life." Understand what I have said spiritually. You are not going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed. I have given you a sacrament. Understood spiritually, it will give you life. Although it must be celebrated visibly yet it should be understood invisibly." Translated by J.E. Tweed. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 8. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1888.)
Note the bold part. Augustine clearly believes that the body that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper, and the body and blood that were crucified on the cross, is NOT what is eaten in the Eucharist. Therefore, Augustine does NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence".
End of debate. Right?
Nope. This quote is addressing physical cannibalism; some people thought early Christian's were eating actual flesh. Augustine wanted to prevent a misunderstanding so he explained how Christ was present in the Eucharist.
See? You're brainwashed.
Let's go through this with baby steps:
1. The Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" is that the Eucharist bread is the same body that they see, and the wine is the same blood that was shed on the cross.
2. Augustine EXPLICITLY states that you are NOT going to eat the body that you see, and you are NOT going to drink the blood that is shed on the cross.
Agreed?
I would also be confused if I didn't understand the context. But you're willfully ignorant.
The idea of Real Presence became more precise from Augustine to Transubstantiation. He said you won't eat human flesh but he believed Christ was active in the Eucharist. His view of the Eucharist is consistent of Church teaching. It's fairly simple. It's truly astonishing you haven't grasped it yet.
I've given you the ENTIRE context of that quote.
I'm just asking for an answer to my question - do you agree with those baby steps I gave?
No. I gave YOU the baby steps. You ignored it as usual, as your hate for Catholicism has blinded you.
If you keep going on like this, people know that it means you know you're wrong.
I'll be waiting for you to answer my question, when you finally decide to just be honest.
Okay, so Sam and BigGame didn't want to be honest.
How about the other Roman Catholics reading this? FLBear? Freedom? Coke? Any others? Will you engage my argument?
How about the other Roman Catholics reading this? FLBear? Freedom? Coke? Any others? Will you engage my argument?
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
I submit to Rome.
Which means what, regarding what I asked?
Are you afraid to have this discussion? Is that why you're being evasive?
Lmao, what do you think it means?
Your reading comprehension is poor. No wonder you misinterpreted Augustine's writings!
What I think it means is not what I asked. I asked what YOU think that means.specifically in regard to the question I asked: do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross? You say you "submit to Rome". Does that mean you acknowledge all that to be true?
Apparently, it was your reading comprehension that failed there, wasn't it?
It's the weekend, no one has time to hold your hand through another theological debate. You know the view of the Church, and you know (most) Catholics submit to that view.
Here's what my home Parish thinks about the Eucharist. And fun fact, this church has been maintained by Augustine Friars since 1796, in fact it's the oldest permanent establishment of the Augustinian Order in The United States.
https://www.st-augustinechurch.com/eucharist
Ok, let's try it this way: I'm going to assert that the answer to my question is YES. You fully acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" in the Eucharist is that the bread and wine become the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood of Jesus that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper when Jesus said "This is my body", the same flesh and blood that were crucified on the cross.
Am I correct on my assertion? Simple yes or no.
Yep. The substance of the bread and wine transform into the body and blood, but remain under the appearance of bread and wine.
Okay. Now read Augustine's words:
"What seemed difficult to them was his saying, "Unless a man eat my flesh, he will not have eternal life." They understood it foolishly. They thought in a carnal way and supposed that the Lord was going to cut off some pieces of this body and give the pieces to them. And they said, "This is a hard saying." They were the ones who were hard, not the saying. For the twelve disciples remained with him, and when the others left, they pointed out to him that those who had been scandalized by what he had said had left. But he instructed them and said to them, "It is the spirit which gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and life." Understand what I have said spiritually. You are not going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed. I have given you a sacrament. Understood spiritually, it will give you life. Although it must be celebrated visibly yet it should be understood invisibly." Translated by J.E. Tweed. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 8. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1888.)
Note the bold part. Augustine clearly believes that the body that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper, and the body and blood that were crucified on the cross, is NOT what is eaten in the Eucharist. Therefore, Augustine does NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence".
End of debate. Right?
Nope. This quote is addressing physical cannibalism; some people thought early Christian's were eating actual flesh. Augustine wanted to prevent a misunderstanding so he explained how Christ was present in the Eucharist.
See? You're brainwashed.
Let's go through this with baby steps:
1. The Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" is that the Eucharist bread is the same body that they see, and the wine is the same blood that was shed on the cross.
2. Augustine EXPLICITLY states that you are NOT going to eat the body that you see, and you are NOT going to drink the blood that is shed on the cross.
Agreed?
I would also be confused if I didn't understand the context. But you're willfully ignorant.
The idea of Real Presence became more precise from Augustine to Transubstantiation. He said you won't eat human flesh but he believed Christ was active in the Eucharist. His view of the Eucharist is consistent of Church teaching. It's fairly simple. It's truly astonishing you haven't grasped it yet.
I've given you the ENTIRE context of that quote.
I'm just asking for an answer to my question - do you agree with those baby steps I gave?
No. I gave YOU the baby steps. You ignored it as usual, as your hate for Catholicism has blinded you.
If you keep going on like this, people know that it means you know you're wrong.
I'll be waiting for you to answer my question, when you finally decide to just be honest.
It would be impressive if these were original thoughts but we know you're just regurgitating the usual anti-Catholic tropes from Reddit. You fail to examine the whole context and completely ignore whatever the other side brings up. That doesn't make you right, it makes you an ass. That's why no one responds to you. You're not curious and you don't want to engage in thoughtful debate, it appears your only goal is to deny and hinder the Real Presence of the Eucharist. I shall pray for you.
Sic 'em Bears and Go Birds
BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
I submit to Rome.
Which means what, regarding what I asked?
Are you afraid to have this discussion? Is that why you're being evasive?
Lmao, what do you think it means?
Your reading comprehension is poor. No wonder you misinterpreted Augustine's writings!
What I think it means is not what I asked. I asked what YOU think that means.specifically in regard to the question I asked: do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross? You say you "submit to Rome". Does that mean you acknowledge all that to be true?
Apparently, it was your reading comprehension that failed there, wasn't it?
It's the weekend, no one has time to hold your hand through another theological debate. You know the view of the Church, and you know (most) Catholics submit to that view.
Here's what my home Parish thinks about the Eucharist. And fun fact, this church has been maintained by Augustine Friars since 1796, in fact it's the oldest permanent establishment of the Augustinian Order in The United States.
https://www.st-augustinechurch.com/eucharist
Ok, let's try it this way: I'm going to assert that the answer to my question is YES. You fully acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" in the Eucharist is that the bread and wine become the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood of Jesus that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper when Jesus said "This is my body", the same flesh and blood that were crucified on the cross.
Am I correct on my assertion? Simple yes or no.
Yep. The substance of the bread and wine transform into the body and blood, but remain under the appearance of bread and wine.
Okay. Now read Augustine's words:
"What seemed difficult to them was his saying, "Unless a man eat my flesh, he will not have eternal life." They understood it foolishly. They thought in a carnal way and supposed that the Lord was going to cut off some pieces of this body and give the pieces to them. And they said, "This is a hard saying." They were the ones who were hard, not the saying. For the twelve disciples remained with him, and when the others left, they pointed out to him that those who had been scandalized by what he had said had left. But he instructed them and said to them, "It is the spirit which gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and life." Understand what I have said spiritually. You are not going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed. I have given you a sacrament. Understood spiritually, it will give you life. Although it must be celebrated visibly yet it should be understood invisibly." Translated by J.E. Tweed. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 8. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1888.)
Note the bold part. Augustine clearly believes that the body that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper, and the body and blood that were crucified on the cross, is NOT what is eaten in the Eucharist. Therefore, Augustine does NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence".
End of debate. Right?
Nope. This quote is addressing physical cannibalism; some people thought early Christian's were eating actual flesh. Augustine wanted to prevent a misunderstanding so he explained how Christ was present in the Eucharist.
See? You're brainwashed.
Let's go through this with baby steps:
1. The Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" is that the Eucharist bread is the same body that they see, and the wine is the same blood that was shed on the cross.
2. Augustine EXPLICITLY states that you are NOT going to eat the body that you see, and you are NOT going to drink the blood that is shed on the cross.
Agreed?
I would also be confused if I didn't understand the context. But you're willfully ignorant.
The idea of Real Presence became more precise from Augustine to Transubstantiation. He said you won't eat human flesh but he believed Christ was active in the Eucharist. His view of the Eucharist is consistent of Church teaching. It's fairly simple. It's truly astonishing you haven't grasped it yet.
I've given you the ENTIRE context of that quote.
I'm just asking for an answer to my question - do you agree with those baby steps I gave?
No. I gave YOU the baby steps. You ignored it as usual, as your hate for Catholicism has blinded you.
If you keep going on like this, people know that it means you know you're wrong.
I'll be waiting for you to answer my question, when you finally decide to just be honest.
It would be impressive if these were original thoughts but we know you're just regurgitating the usual anti-Catholic tropes from Reddit. You fail to examine the whole context and completely ignore whatever the other side brings up. That doesn't make you right, it makes you an ass. That's why no one responds to you. You're not curious and you don't want to engage in thoughtful debate, it appears your only goal is to deny and hinder the Real Presence of the Eucharist. I shall pray for you.
You're just reacting badly like this because you know you're wrong. That's why you won't answer my questions. I just wish you'd be honest with yourself and just admit that what I'm saying is true.
BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
I submit to Rome.
Which means what, regarding what I asked?
Are you afraid to have this discussion? Is that why you're being evasive?
Lmao, what do you think it means?
Your reading comprehension is poor. No wonder you misinterpreted Augustine's writings!
What I think it means is not what I asked. I asked what YOU think that means.specifically in regard to the question I asked: do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross? You say you "submit to Rome". Does that mean you acknowledge all that to be true?
Apparently, it was your reading comprehension that failed there, wasn't it?
It's the weekend, no one has time to hold your hand through another theological debate. You know the view of the Church, and you know (most) Catholics submit to that view.
Here's what my home Parish thinks about the Eucharist. And fun fact, this church has been maintained by Augustine Friars since 1796, in fact it's the oldest permanent establishment of the Augustinian Order in The United States.
https://www.st-augustinechurch.com/eucharist
Ok, let's try it this way: I'm going to assert that the answer to my question is YES. You fully acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" in the Eucharist is that the bread and wine become the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood of Jesus that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper when Jesus said "This is my body", the same flesh and blood that were crucified on the cross.
Am I correct on my assertion? Simple yes or no.
Yep. The substance of the bread and wine transform into the body and blood, but remain under the appearance of bread and wine.
Okay. Now read Augustine's words:
"What seemed difficult to them was his saying, "Unless a man eat my flesh, he will not have eternal life." They understood it foolishly. They thought in a carnal way and supposed that the Lord was going to cut off some pieces of this body and give the pieces to them. And they said, "This is a hard saying." They were the ones who were hard, not the saying. For the twelve disciples remained with him, and when the others left, they pointed out to him that those who had been scandalized by what he had said had left. But he instructed them and said to them, "It is the spirit which gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and life." Understand what I have said spiritually. You are not going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed. I have given you a sacrament. Understood spiritually, it will give you life. Although it must be celebrated visibly yet it should be understood invisibly." Translated by J.E. Tweed. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 8. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1888.)
Note the bold part. Augustine clearly believes that the body that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper, and the body and blood that were crucified on the cross, is NOT what is eaten in the Eucharist. Therefore, Augustine does NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence".
End of debate. Right?
Nope. This quote is addressing physical cannibalism; some people thought early Christian's were eating actual flesh. Augustine wanted to prevent a misunderstanding so he explained how Christ was present in the Eucharist.
Honestly, this discussion is more profitable if it is had in the context of whether there is a physical change in the elements or a metaphysical change. If the Roman Catholic teaching is that there is a physical change, then all the criticism of the doctrine of transubstantiation is correct (and easily disproven in any biochemistry lab). If it is only a metaphysical change, then it brings Roman Catholic teaching into line with Lutheran and Orthodox understandings of the matter.
Realitybites said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
I submit to Rome.
Which means what, regarding what I asked?
Are you afraid to have this discussion? Is that why you're being evasive?
Lmao, what do you think it means?
Your reading comprehension is poor. No wonder you misinterpreted Augustine's writings!
What I think it means is not what I asked. I asked what YOU think that means.specifically in regard to the question I asked: do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross? You say you "submit to Rome". Does that mean you acknowledge all that to be true?
Apparently, it was your reading comprehension that failed there, wasn't it?
It's the weekend, no one has time to hold your hand through another theological debate. You know the view of the Church, and you know (most) Catholics submit to that view.
Here's what my home Parish thinks about the Eucharist. And fun fact, this church has been maintained by Augustine Friars since 1796, in fact it's the oldest permanent establishment of the Augustinian Order in The United States.
https://www.st-augustinechurch.com/eucharist
Ok, let's try it this way: I'm going to assert that the answer to my question is YES. You fully acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" in the Eucharist is that the bread and wine become the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood of Jesus that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper when Jesus said "This is my body", the same flesh and blood that were crucified on the cross.
Am I correct on my assertion? Simple yes or no.
Yep. The substance of the bread and wine transform into the body and blood, but remain under the appearance of bread and wine.
Okay. Now read Augustine's words:
"What seemed difficult to them was his saying, "Unless a man eat my flesh, he will not have eternal life." They understood it foolishly. They thought in a carnal way and supposed that the Lord was going to cut off some pieces of this body and give the pieces to them. And they said, "This is a hard saying." They were the ones who were hard, not the saying. For the twelve disciples remained with him, and when the others left, they pointed out to him that those who had been scandalized by what he had said had left. But he instructed them and said to them, "It is the spirit which gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and life." Understand what I have said spiritually. You are not going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed. I have given you a sacrament. Understood spiritually, it will give you life. Although it must be celebrated visibly yet it should be understood invisibly." Translated by J.E. Tweed. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 8. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1888.)
Note the bold part. Augustine clearly believes that the body that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper, and the body and blood that were crucified on the cross, is NOT what is eaten in the Eucharist. Therefore, Augustine does NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence".
End of debate. Right?
Nope. This quote is addressing physical cannibalism; some people thought early Christian's were eating actual flesh. Augustine wanted to prevent a misunderstanding so he explained how Christ was present in the Eucharist.
Honestly, this discussion is more profitable if it is had in the context of whether there is a physical change in the elements or a metaphysical change. If the Roman Catholic teaching is that there is a physical change, then all the criticism of the doctrine of transubstantiation is correct (and easily disproven in any biochemistry lab). If it is only a metaphysical change, then it brings Roman Catholic teaching into line with Lutheran and Orthodox understandings of the matter.
This discussion would be more profitable if people would be honest and come to the table with a heart of seeking the truth, instead of defending one's tribe at all costs.
Oldbear83 said:
Pretty sure I just heard a deep heavy sigh from the Holy Ghost.
Pretty familiar with that sound, are you?
Realitybites said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
I submit to Rome.
Which means what, regarding what I asked?
Are you afraid to have this discussion? Is that why you're being evasive?
Lmao, what do you think it means?
Your reading comprehension is poor. No wonder you misinterpreted Augustine's writings!
What I think it means is not what I asked. I asked what YOU think that means.specifically in regard to the question I asked: do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross? You say you "submit to Rome". Does that mean you acknowledge all that to be true?
Apparently, it was your reading comprehension that failed there, wasn't it?
It's the weekend, no one has time to hold your hand through another theological debate. You know the view of the Church, and you know (most) Catholics submit to that view.
Here's what my home Parish thinks about the Eucharist. And fun fact, this church has been maintained by Augustine Friars since 1796, in fact it's the oldest permanent establishment of the Augustinian Order in The United States.
https://www.st-augustinechurch.com/eucharist
Ok, let's try it this way: I'm going to assert that the answer to my question is YES. You fully acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" in the Eucharist is that the bread and wine become the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood of Jesus that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper when Jesus said "This is my body", the same flesh and blood that were crucified on the cross.
Am I correct on my assertion? Simple yes or no.
Yep. The substance of the bread and wine transform into the body and blood, but remain under the appearance of bread and wine.
Okay. Now read Augustine's words:
"What seemed difficult to them was his saying, "Unless a man eat my flesh, he will not have eternal life." They understood it foolishly. They thought in a carnal way and supposed that the Lord was going to cut off some pieces of this body and give the pieces to them. And they said, "This is a hard saying." They were the ones who were hard, not the saying. For the twelve disciples remained with him, and when the others left, they pointed out to him that those who had been scandalized by what he had said had left. But he instructed them and said to them, "It is the spirit which gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and life." Understand what I have said spiritually. You are not going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed. I have given you a sacrament. Understood spiritually, it will give you life. Although it must be celebrated visibly yet it should be understood invisibly." Translated by J.E. Tweed. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 8. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1888.)
Note the bold part. Augustine clearly believes that the body that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper, and the body and blood that were crucified on the cross, is NOT what is eaten in the Eucharist. Therefore, Augustine does NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence".
End of debate. Right?
Nope. This quote is addressing physical cannibalism; some people thought early Christian's were eating actual flesh. Augustine wanted to prevent a misunderstanding so he explained how Christ was present in the Eucharist.
Honestly, this discussion is more profitable if it is had in the context of whether there is a physical change in the elements or a metaphysical change. If the Roman Catholic teaching is that there is a physical change, then all the criticism of the doctrine of transubstantiation is correct (and easily disproven in any biochemistry lab). If it is only a metaphysical change, then it brings Roman Catholic teaching into line with Lutheran and Orthodox understandings of the matter.
We believe in a physical change into literal body and blood, however the accidents (color, taste, smell) remain the same. This is a miracle/mystery called Transubstantiation. This idea was formalized in the 13th century. One millennia after Augustine.
Girolamo Fracastoro proposed Contagion Theory in the 16th century. Germ Theory was proposed in the 19th century. Girolamo understood how diseases spread but did not know what germs were. He was 300 years early.
Augustine believed in the Church view of Real Presence, but he didn't have the idea of Transubstantiation to aide his understanding.
Sic 'em Bears and Go Birds
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Oldbear83 said:
Pretty sure I just heard a deep heavy sigh from the Holy Ghost.
Pretty familiar with that sound, are you?
Sometimes, but this time it was not about me. I expect that one causes quite a few of those sighs but never hears them because he is obsessed with his own voice.
Oldbear83 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Oldbear83 said:
Pretty sure I just heard a deep heavy sigh from the Holy Ghost.
Pretty familiar with that sound, are you?
Sometimes, but this time it was not about me. I expect that one causes quite a few of those sighs but never hears them because he is obsessed with his own voice.
Why do you characterize what I've argued in the thread as being "obsessed with my own voice"? I genuinely want to know why you seem to always hate me for arguing for what is true, and why you're ALWAYS judging my heart, and my motives for what I argue, instead of the argument itself. You say NOTHING about the arument, you contribute NOTHING to the argument, you just sit back, high on your throne, and dole out judgements on me. Let me guess - I'm being a "Pharisee" for speaking out for the truth, right?
It's a guaranteed reaction from you. It's like you can't help it - I argue for the truth successfully, and there you always are, ready to attack me for being "arrogant", a "Pharisee", etc. It's what your spirit drives you to do. It truly is uncanny.
BigGameBaylorBear said:Realitybites said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:BigGameBaylorBear said:
Any takers who want to entertain the village idiot this weekend?
I already did. Haven't you been reading the past 3 pages?
How about you? Do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross?
Yes, or no?
Oh yeah, that sounds about right. Good stuff.
So that's a yes? You agree that is the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence?
I submit to Rome.
Which means what, regarding what I asked?
Are you afraid to have this discussion? Is that why you're being evasive?
Lmao, what do you think it means?
Your reading comprehension is poor. No wonder you misinterpreted Augustine's writings!
What I think it means is not what I asked. I asked what YOU think that means.specifically in regard to the question I asked: do you acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" involves the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood that the disciples were looking at in the Last Supper, the same flesh and blood that was sacrificed on the cross? You say you "submit to Rome". Does that mean you acknowledge all that to be true?
Apparently, it was your reading comprehension that failed there, wasn't it?
It's the weekend, no one has time to hold your hand through another theological debate. You know the view of the Church, and you know (most) Catholics submit to that view.
Here's what my home Parish thinks about the Eucharist. And fun fact, this church has been maintained by Augustine Friars since 1796, in fact it's the oldest permanent establishment of the Augustinian Order in The United States.
https://www.st-augustinechurch.com/eucharist
Ok, let's try it this way: I'm going to assert that the answer to my question is YES. You fully acknowledge that the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence" in the Eucharist is that the bread and wine become the actual, literal, physical flesh and blood of Jesus, the same flesh and blood of Jesus that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper when Jesus said "This is my body", the same flesh and blood that were crucified on the cross.
Am I correct on my assertion? Simple yes or no.
Yep. The substance of the bread and wine transform into the body and blood, but remain under the appearance of bread and wine.
Okay. Now read Augustine's words:
"What seemed difficult to them was his saying, "Unless a man eat my flesh, he will not have eternal life." They understood it foolishly. They thought in a carnal way and supposed that the Lord was going to cut off some pieces of this body and give the pieces to them. And they said, "This is a hard saying." They were the ones who were hard, not the saying. For the twelve disciples remained with him, and when the others left, they pointed out to him that those who had been scandalized by what he had said had left. But he instructed them and said to them, "It is the spirit which gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and life." Understand what I have said spiritually. You are not going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed. I have given you a sacrament. Understood spiritually, it will give you life. Although it must be celebrated visibly yet it should be understood invisibly." Translated by J.E. Tweed. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 8. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1888.)
Note the bold part. Augustine clearly believes that the body that the disciples were looking at during the Last Supper, and the body and blood that were crucified on the cross, is NOT what is eaten in the Eucharist. Therefore, Augustine does NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the "Real Presence".
End of debate. Right?
Nope. This quote is addressing physical cannibalism; some people thought early Christian's were eating actual flesh. Augustine wanted to prevent a misunderstanding so he explained how Christ was present in the Eucharist.
Honestly, this discussion is more profitable if it is had in the context of whether there is a physical change in the elements or a metaphysical change. If the Roman Catholic teaching is that there is a physical change, then all the criticism of the doctrine of transubstantiation is correct (and easily disproven in any biochemistry lab). If it is only a metaphysical change, then it brings Roman Catholic teaching into line with Lutheran and Orthodox understandings of the matter.
We believe in a physical change into literal body and blood, however the accidents (color, taste, smell) remain the same. This is a miracle/mystery called Transubstantiation. This idea was formalized in the 13th century. One millennia after Augustine.
Girolamo Fracastoro proposed Contagion Theory in the 16th century. Germ Theory was proposed in the 19th century. Girolamo understood how diseases spread but did not know what germs were. He was 300 years early.
Augustine believed in the Church view of Real Presence, but he didn't have the idea of Transubstantiation to aide his understanding.
To make your germ theory analogy apply to the Augustine situation, it would have to be like this: Girolamo believes in Contagion theory, but he specifically states that he does not believe it is due to some kind of physical structure invading the body; rather, he believes it is something in the spirit world. Then when Germ Theory gets proposed, showing that it is indeed due to a physical structure in the body, i.e. germs, it would be totally incorrect to say that this new theory is in line or consistent with what Girolamo believed. It actually shows him to be wrong.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Oldbear83 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Oldbear83 said:
Pretty sure I just heard a deep heavy sigh from the Holy Ghost.
Pretty familiar with that sound, are you?
Sometimes, but this time it was not about me. I expect that one causes quite a few of those sighs but never hears them because he is obsessed with his own voice.
Why do you characterize what I've argued in the thread as being "obsessed with my own voice"? I genuinely want to know why you seem to always hate me for arguing for what is true, and why you're ALWAYS judging my heart, and my motives for what I argue, instead of the argument itself. You say NOTHING about the arument, you contribute NOTHING to the argument, you just sit back, high on your throne, and dole out judgements on me. Let me guess - I'm being a "Pharisee" for speaking out for the truth, right?
It's a guaranteed reaction from you. It's like you can't help it - I argue for the truth successfully, and there you always are, ready to attack me for being "arrogant", a "Pharisee", etc. It's what your spirit drives you to do. It truly is uncanny.
I named no one.