This is quickly turning into a Shia vs Sunni debate....

Assassin said:

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This is quickly turning into a Shia vs Sunni debate....

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LOL. It really doesn't have to be this way, but they are making it so it has to. 90% of the debate is spent on redirecting Roman Catholics back to relevance and keeping them honest. If cowboys didn't have to lasso every stray cow back to the herd, a cattle drive would be so quick and easy.

FLBear5630 said:

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And you are the Cowboy?

You are dead out wrong and keep playing gotcha games.

Since you are 100% right on all of these issues and are apparently ennlighted with the truth. You should enjoy heaven and have the best seat. Maybe even be brought in consultation with God on what he really meant. Afterall, you know...

I am actually starting to believe Purgatory can be defined as talking with you. Keep going, this is all time served.

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Why do you Roman Catholics believe that attacking me personally will somehow invalidate my argument and make my questions go away?

You've conspicuously avoided the question as well. Care to give an actual answer, instead of wasting time with your ad hominems, so we can have an actual discussion? None of this "we've given you an answer, blah, blah" nonsense. NO, you haven't. Only ONE of you was brave enough to answer it directly. DallasBear went on his diatribe, only to go away having chickened out on the question as well. So what say you?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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Did I miss something here? Why is Mr. Sola Scriptura hanging on the very word of Augustine all of a sudden?

Is the argument here that Augustine didn't believe in the real presence?

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Thank you. Sola scriptura is true, so I'm happy to be called that.

If you haven't gathered that I have proven that Augustine does not believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence, then you are either in denial or you have zero comprehension.

And how is sola scriptura not true? We know that Scripture is infallible. What other source of authority is infallible?

The pope? Don't make me laugh. Do we even need to debate this?
The College of Cardinals? How can they be, when they select anti-christ popes?
The bishops? Clearly not.
The priests? Do I even need to say anything?

The "magisterium" and church councils? Which magisterium and councils? There's no agreement over which councils are ecumenical, and thus valid, and councils have been accepted, rejected, and then accepted again. Councils have made icon veneration mandatory - when it is completely absent in Scripture and the early church, and even in the early church it was universally condemned. Councils did not agree as to the canon of Scripture. The Council of Trent anathematized the canons of Athanasius, Jerome, and the majority of fathers, theologians, scholars from the time of Jerome up until the time of the Reformation.

So what other source other than Scripture do you hold as infallible? If you can't argue for another, then even YOU have to agree with sola scriptura.

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Augustine's views on the real presence are subject to debate, and perhaps not completely on top of Catholic teaching when using selective quotes, but the totality of his teachings make it possible to reconcile his teachings that you quote with the Catholic magisterium in a way that Sam has patiently tried to explain to you.

However, the opposite not true. It is impossible to reconcile your interpretation of some of Augustine's statements with the totality of his teachings.

He calls the Eucharist a sacrament in which one thing is seen but another understood (sacraments are not figurative or symbolic).

Augustine instructs that the Eucharist is to be adored before consuming it, even going so far as to say failure to adore the Eucharist would constitute a sin (if it is symbolic. or figurative, we have bigger problems here).

Augustine teaches that when you hear what is on the altar referred to as "the Body of Christ" the faithful are to respond with "Amen".

Augustine refers to a martyred deacon as one who administered the "sacred" chalice of Christ's blood.

Augustine teaches that failure to remain in spiritual communion with the church while taking the Eucharist serves as testimony against those who partake in the Eucharist.

So, to be clear, are you accepting Augustine as an authority on the topic of the Eucharist or not?

Your selective understanding of the Catechism is equally limited.

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Ok, let's go over this again, since you guys are having REAL trouble with this.

Do you, or do you not agree, that the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the Eucharist bread is the same body as what the disciples saw in front of them in the Last supper (what they see), and that the Eucharist wine is the same blood of Jesus that was shed on the cross?

Yes or no?

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I answered your post. So please, answer my question and then I'll answer your question:

Do you recognize Augustine as an authority on the Eucharist?

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No, you did NOT answer the question.

If your answer is yes, then Augustine definitively did NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of Real Presence. Do you honestly not see that??

I do not recognize Augustine as an infallible authority on anything, much less the Eucharist. But your Church's argument is that Augustine believed in your Real Presence view. I showed that he did not.

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I didn't ask if you recognize Augustine as an infalible authority on the Eucharist. I asked if you recognize him as an authority on the Eucharist.

I don't understand why it is so hard to answer such a simple question. So, let's try one more time:

Do you recognize a Augustine as an authority on the Eucharist?

This is a simple question. I don't understand why it is so hard for you to answer.

Folks, what does it tell you about BTD and his theology that he is unwilling to answer such a simple question? Will anyone step up to speak for BTD? Is anyone willing to answer such a simple question about Augustine?

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If he's not an infallible authority, then does any other authority you're thinking of matter with regard to the point of this debate? We certainly aren't arguing whether Augustine was an authority on the Eucharist for his particular congregation, or for the Roman Catholic Church, are we?

And even if we are, I think I've clearly shown that Augustine did not believe in the RC view on the Real Presence, so if he's an authority for the RC church, why do you not listen to him?

Now answer MY question. You avoided it. It's a very simple question. Will anyone step up for DallasBear, as he won't speak up?

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I don't understand why you are avoiding such a simple and straightforward question. I just want you to be honest with us.

I've already got a reply typed out to your other stuff once you answer my straight forward question.

Do you recognize Augustine as an authority on the Eucharist? Yes or no?

I really don't understand what is so hard about such a straight forward question.

Folks what does it tell us that BTD can't be honest with us about such an easy question? Clearly I have won the argument and he is trying to go back to his already defeated positions. [I'll avoid the rest of his nastiness].

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Are you so stupid as to see that my answer is that I don't see him as an infallible authority, and therefore not a meaningful authority at all? If you want to qualify what you mean by "authority", then do so.

And NO, you did NOT answer my question. Folks, let me repeat my question for DallasBear since he obviously is trying to avoid it:

Do you, or do you not agree, that the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the Eucharist bread is the same body as what the disciples saw in front of them in the Last supper (what they see), and that the Eucharist wine is the same blood of Jesus that was shed on the cross?

Yes or no?

Straight up cut and paste of the question above that you neglected to answer, and then went on a tirade about how I don't answer questions, when I clearly did.

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C. I promised a serious answer, so here you go:

1. We know that Jesus lost followers over his teaching that they would need to eat his flesh and drink his blood. Seems like an odd thing for Jesus to lose followers over if he wasn't being literal. But reasonable minds can disagree, I suppose.

2. The next question is what do you believe the apostles consumed at The Last Supper after Jesus consecrated the bread and wine? CCC 1376, which you selectively emphasized, has an introductory that establishes what Catholic teaching is saying (again, you should read and comprehend the totality instead of playing your silly gotcha games). CCC 1376: Jesus himself said it was his Body and the covenant was in his blood. [Totality Alert:] Catholic teaching recognizes The Last Supper as the first Mass. Consequently, what 1376 is telling you is that God, through the Holy Spirit, using his priests, consecrates the communion wafers and wine into the same thing that Christ consecrated the bread and wine into at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less. [Totality Alert] What is not seen physically is understood spiritually (Augustine). In whatever form Jesus was present in the consecrated bread and wine at The Last Supper (we believe the substance of his real presence was there) is how he is present in the Mass I attended this morning and any other time Catholics have celebrated the Mass culminating in the Liturgy of the Eucharist. So, do I believe that the apostles consumed his real body in the consecrated bread and wine at The Last Supper? Yes, Jesus said as much. I also believe that is exactly the sacrifice that is offered at the Mass.

So answer for yourself what you believe the apostles consumed at The Last Supper. Your answer to that issue will tell you what you believe you are consuming when you take communion in 2026.

3. As for Augustine,

a. that he calls the communion a sacrament tells you that he does not believe it is symbolic or figurative. I know, you reject the idea of sacraments, but labeling it a sacrament confers that Augustine believes something divine and holy is in the communion. Otherwise there is no universe in which he would call it a sacrament.

b. That he instructs adoration (worship) of the Eucharist because he is worshipping the body of the Jesus, and even suggests it is a sin not to adore it prior to consuming it, screams that he believes there is something holy and divine in the Eucharist. If he truly believes the Eucharist is symbolic and figurative, then he is engaging in something sinister. Note, you accuse of us or worshipping Mary even though we tell you Marian devotions are (i) veneration and (ii) not required by the Church.

Here Augustine is teaching something much deeper than veneration should occur and that it is required. If he believes it is figurative or symbolic, well, I can't wait to hear what label you have for him.

c. Augustine's reference of a martyred deacon as an administrator of the "sacred" chalice of Christ's blood is obviously telling you he sees the Eucharist as divine. To refer to the chalice as sacred could only be done if he believes what the vessel carries is divine.

d. Teaching spiritual damnation for failure to be in communion with the church (lower case "c" just for you, but, obviously we believe it is the "Church" he is referring to) while partaking in communion self-evidently express the divine nature of the Eucharist. I hope you don't need an explanation for that.

There is more from Augustine, but this is enough for now. The original point remains: Sam has patiently tried to harmonize the Augustine quotes you have selectively emphasized with the totality of Augustine's teachings and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Perhaps you disagree with Sam, but reasonable minds can get to where Sam is.

What cannot be done is harmonization of your interpretation that Augustine viewed the Eucharist as symbolic and figurative with the totality of Augustine's teachings (let alone the Magisterium). So, either Augustine was sloppy, lazy, insincere or you are misunderstanding him.

Given that you don't even recognize him as a meaningful authority (your words), I'm not sure why you are trying to argue what any of his teachings truly, actually mean other than engaging in some game where you hope to score cheap points by taking things out of their complete context and then pretending you don't understand when people like Sam patiently explain it to you.

Also, FYI, the Catholic Church does not recognize doctors of Church as infallible. Tremendous guides, generally very good on theology, but still susceptible to error.

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Look - all I'm asking is if your answer to my question is "yes", or "no". Here it is, yet again:

Do you, or do you not agree, that the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the Eucharist bread is the same body as what the disciples saw in front of them in the Last supper (what they see), and that the Eucharist wine is the same blood of Jesus that was shed on the cross?

Yes or no? This is a simple question. It means what it's asking. You're a disciple LOOKING at Jesus during the Last Supper. Is the Roman Catholic view that the body you see is the same body that is in the Eucharist, or is it not?

If you think this question is misleading, or invalid, then EXPLAIN., So far, in everything you've written you've not answered the question, nor have you explained why the question is invalid. I want an answer, not a sermon on

I can answer all your items, each one above later, because I want to address the theological argument of the Eucharist after this. I just want to know if the above is an accurate statement about the Roman Catholic view of the Eucharist. Can you at least do that?

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You proved yourself incapable of giving a yes or no answer so you have no standing to demand one. My long post above answers your question fairly, sincerely and honestly.

I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less. That is my understanding of Catholic teaching.

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Ok, so you're chickening out of the question. Several of your Catholic brethren did the same.

As far your "answer" here - does "same exact consecrated bread and wine" mean that the bread IS the same body that Jesus disciples could see, and is the wine the same blood that was shed on the cross?

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You are just trying to bring up already defeated arguments. Your question has been answered. I can't understand it for you.

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Umm, no it hasn't. Your "answer" didn't address my question at all.

Why won't you just answer it? In the 15 posts or so that you've made so far, you think you could've spared just one to actually answer the question. I even asked you a follow up to one of your "answers" (which didn't answer the question):

Does "same exact consecrated bread and wine" that you referred to in your answer mean that the bread IS the same body that Jesus disciples could see, and is the wine the same blood that was shed on the cross?

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The question has been answered multiple times, mostly by Sam. I point you to Augustine: what cannot be understood physically is understood by spiritual faith. I also point you to the Catholic Church that teaches the Eucharist to be one of central mysteries of the faith (also called a sacred mystery) because the real presence of Jesus Christ (body, blood, soul and divinity) is there in the appearance of bread and wine.

We believe the same was true at The Last Supper.

You want a material explanation subject to the laws of nature when it is a metaphysical event not bound by the laws of nature as you and I understand them.

You want reason to explain that which is a spiritual mystery. You ask for the impossible. I would have thought you would have understood it after 15 pages in this thread and countless other threads, but here we are.

Assassin said:

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This is quickly turning into a Shia vs Sunni debate....

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Yeah, when someone argues in bad faith sometimes you need to reflect his style back at him in hopes he can be shaken to change.

DallasBear9902Look - all I'm asking is if your answer to my question is "yes", or "no". Here it is, yet again: said:

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Quote:

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Do you, or do you not agree, that the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the Eucharist bread is the same body as what the disciples saw in front of them in the Last supper (what they see), and that the Eucharist wine is the same blood of Jesus that was shed on the cross?

Yes or no? This is a simple question. It means what it's asking. You're a disciple LOOKING at Jesus during the Last Supper. Is the Roman Catholic view that the body you see is the same body that is in the Eucharist, or is it not?

If you think this question is misleading, or invalid, then EXPLAIN., So far, in everything you've written you've not answered the question, nor have you explained why the question is invalid. I want an answer, not a sermon on

I can answer all your items, each one above later, because I want to address the theological argument of the Eucharist after this. I just want to know if the above is an accurate statement about the Roman Catholic view of the Eucharist. Can you at least do that?

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You proved yourself incapable of giving a yes or no answer so you have no standing to demand one. My long post above answers your question fairly, sincerely and honestly.

I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less. That is my understanding of Catholic teaching.

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Ok, so you're chickening out of the question. Several of your Catholic brethren did the same.

As far your "answer" here - does "same exact consecrated bread and wine" mean that the bread IS the same body that Jesus disciples could see, and is the wine the same blood that was shed on the cross?

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You are just trying to bring up already defeated arguments. Your question has been answered. I can't understand it for you.

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Umm, no it hasn't. Your "answer" didn't address my question at all.

Why won't you just answer it? In the 15 posts or so that you've made so far, you think you could've spared just one to actually answer the question. I even asked you a follow up to one of your "answers" (which didn't answer the question):

Does "same exact consecrated bread and wine" that you referred to in your answer mean that the bread IS the same body that Jesus disciples could see, and is the wine the same blood that was shed on the cross?

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The question has been answered multiple times, mostly by Sam. I point you to Augustine: what cannot be understood physically is understood by spiritual faith. I also point you to the Catholic Church that teaches the Eucharist to be one of central mysteries of the faith (also called a sacred mystery) because the real presence of Jesus Christ (body, blood, soul and divinity) is there in the appearance of bread and wine.

We believe the same was true at The Last Supper.

You want a material explanation subject to the laws of nature when it is a metaphysical event not bound by the laws of nature as you and I understand them.

You want reason to explain that which is a spiritual mystery. You ask for the impossible. I would have thought you would have understood it after 15 pages in this thread and countless other threads, but here we are.

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No, Sam expressly avoided answering the question. If you disagree, then point to exactly where he answered the following question:

"Do you, or do you not agree, that the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the Eucharist bread is the same body as what the disciples saw in front of them in the Last supper (what they see), and that the Eucharist wine is the same blood of Jesus that was shed on the cross? Yes or no?"

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? The question is straightforward and specific, unlike your "authority" question. Can you finally just give me your answer?

DallasBear9902 said:

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Assassin said:

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This is quickly turning into a Shia vs Sunni debate....

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Yeah, when someone argues in bad faith sometimes you need to reflect his style back at him in hopes he can be shaken to change.

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Folks, this is what DallasBear is saying is the same:

Asking: "Is Augustine an authority on the Eucharist"?

...and asking: "Do you, or do you not agree, that the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the Eucharist bread is the same body as what the disciples saw in front of them in the Last supper (what they see), and that the Eucharist wine is the same blood of Jesus that was shed on the cross? Yes or no?"

Obviously, the first question needs to be qualified. Authority for whom? Authority in what way - authority to interpret it, or an authority to administer it in church? Infallible authority, or fallible authority? Therefore, a qualified answer is perfectly valid, since the asker of the question didn't specify.

The second question is pretty specific. It's not asking simply if the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the bread and wine are the body and blood of Jesus. That would be a question analagous to the first question - it all depends on what you mean by it. Rather, the question is asking to hone in on exactly what one means, with specifics - is it the same body that the disciples were looking right at with their own eyes, and the same blood that was shed on the cross? This is a question that can be answered directly.

Anyway, this is just a public service announcement for how to make accurate comparisons. It's obvious that at least one of you simply doesn't understand.

Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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DallasBear9902Look - all I'm asking is if your answer to my question is "yes", or "no". Here it is, yet again: said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Do you, or do you not agree, that the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the Eucharist bread is the same body as what the disciples saw in front of them in the Last supper (what they see), and that the Eucharist wine is the same blood of Jesus that was shed on the cross?

Yes or no? This is a simple question. It means what it's asking. You're a disciple LOOKING at Jesus during the Last Supper. Is the Roman Catholic view that the body you see is the same body that is in the Eucharist, or is it not?

If you think this question is misleading, or invalid, then EXPLAIN., So far, in everything you've written you've not answered the question, nor have you explained why the question is invalid. I want an answer, not a sermon on

I can answer all your items, each one above later, because I want to address the theological argument of the Eucharist after this. I just want to know if the above is an accurate statement about the Roman Catholic view of the Eucharist. Can you at least do that?

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You proved yourself incapable of giving a yes or no answer so you have no standing to demand one. My long post above answers your question fairly, sincerely and honestly.

I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less. That is my understanding of Catholic teaching.

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Ok, so you're chickening out of the question. Several of your Catholic brethren did the same.

As far your "answer" here - does "same exact consecrated bread and wine" mean that the bread IS the same body that Jesus disciples could see, and is the wine the same blood that was shed on the cross?

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You are just trying to bring up already defeated arguments. Your question has been answered. I can't understand it for you.

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Umm, no it hasn't. Your "answer" didn't address my question at all.

Why won't you just answer it? In the 15 posts or so that you've made so far, you think you could've spared just one to actually answer the question. I even asked you a follow up to one of your "answers" (which didn't answer the question):

Does "same exact consecrated bread and wine" that you referred to in your answer mean that the bread IS the same body that Jesus disciples could see, and is the wine the same blood that was shed on the cross?

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The question has been answered multiple times, mostly by Sam. I point you to Augustine: what cannot be understood physically is understood by spiritual faith. I also point you to the Catholic Church that teaches the Eucharist to be one of central mysteries of the faith (also called a sacred mystery) because the real presence of Jesus Christ (body, blood, soul and divinity) is there in the appearance of bread and wine.

We believe the same was true at The Last Supper.

You want a material explanation subject to the laws of nature when it is a metaphysical event not bound by the laws of nature as you and I understand them.

You want reason to explain that which is a spiritual mystery. You ask for the impossible. I would have thought you would have understood it after 15 pages in this thread and countless other threads, but here we are.

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No, Sam expressly avoided answering the question. If you disagree, then point to exactly where he answered the following question:

"Do you, or do you not agree, that the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the Eucharist bread is the same body as what the disciples saw in front of them in the Last supper (what they see), and that the Eucharist wine is the same blood of Jesus that was shed on the cross? Yes or no?"

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? The question is straightforward and specific, unlike your "authority" question. Can you finally just give me your answer?

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Folks, this is a man (I think, by his own standards he argues like a fourth grader) who refuses to answer yes no questions, instead choosing to add his own qualifiers, but then demands that everybody else answer his narrowly crafted questions in an effort to play weird gotcha games as if matters of faith could be reduced to reason in some quasi-court of law.

Even worse, when his questions are answered, he pretends not to understand (again, might be a fourth grader).

So, he has asked: do we believe the consecrated Eucharist is the same body as the Apostles saw in front of them in The Last Supper?

I have said multiple times in this thread that yes! The Catholic Church teaches and we believe the consecrated Eucharist results in us consuming the same thing the Apostles consumed at The Last Supper. An event we recognize as the very first Mass. Nothing more and nothing less.

Yet he claims his questions are unanswered. Presumably, the majority of us are educated men and women reading this and you can see for yourself his bad faith.

Folks, what does that say about him that he acts in such bad faith? What does it say about him that he wants reason and the human mind to control over mysteries of faith? He may be able to fool himself. But he isn't fooling the rest of us.

FLBear5630 said:

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Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

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I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

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I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

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Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.

But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.

See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.

DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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DallasBear9902Look - all I'm asking is if your answer to my question is "yes", or "no". Here it is, yet again: said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Do you, or do you not agree, that the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the Eucharist bread is the same body as what the disciples saw in front of them in the Last supper (what they see), and that the Eucharist wine is the same blood of Jesus that was shed on the cross?

Yes or no? This is a simple question. It means what it's asking. You're a disciple LOOKING at Jesus during the Last Supper. Is the Roman Catholic view that the body you see is the same body that is in the Eucharist, or is it not?

If you think this question is misleading, or invalid, then EXPLAIN., So far, in everything you've written you've not answered the question, nor have you explained why the question is invalid. I want an answer, not a sermon on

I can answer all your items, each one above later, because I want to address the theological argument of the Eucharist after this. I just want to know if the above is an accurate statement about the Roman Catholic view of the Eucharist. Can you at least do that?

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You proved yourself incapable of giving a yes or no answer so you have no standing to demand one. My long post above answers your question fairly, sincerely and honestly.

I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less. That is my understanding of Catholic teaching.

---

Ok, so you're chickening out of the question. Several of your Catholic brethren did the same.

As far your "answer" here - does "same exact consecrated bread and wine" mean that the bread IS the same body that Jesus disciples could see, and is the wine the same blood that was shed on the cross?

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You are just trying to bring up already defeated arguments. Your question has been answered. I can't understand it for you.

---

Umm, no it hasn't. Your "answer" didn't address my question at all.

Why won't you just answer it? In the 15 posts or so that you've made so far, you think you could've spared just one to actually answer the question. I even asked you a follow up to one of your "answers" (which didn't answer the question):

Does "same exact consecrated bread and wine" that you referred to in your answer mean that the bread IS the same body that Jesus disciples could see, and is the wine the same blood that was shed on the cross?

---

The question has been answered multiple times, mostly by Sam. I point you to Augustine: what cannot be understood physically is understood by spiritual faith. I also point you to the Catholic Church that teaches the Eucharist to be one of central mysteries of the faith (also called a sacred mystery) because the real presence of Jesus Christ (body, blood, soul and divinity) is there in the appearance of bread and wine.

We believe the same was true at The Last Supper.

You want a material explanation subject to the laws of nature when it is a metaphysical event not bound by the laws of nature as you and I understand them.

You want reason to explain that which is a spiritual mystery. You ask for the impossible. I would have thought you would have understood it after 15 pages in this thread and countless other threads, but here we are.

---

No, Sam expressly avoided answering the question. If you disagree, then point to exactly where he answered the following question:

"Do you, or do you not agree, that the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the Eucharist bread is the same body as what the disciples saw in front of them in the Last supper (what they see), and that the Eucharist wine is the same blood of Jesus that was shed on the cross? Yes or no?"

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? The question is straightforward and specific, unlike your "authority" question. Can you finally just give me your answer?

---

So, he has asked: do we believe the consecrated Eucharist is the same body as the Apostles saw in front of them in The Last Supper?

I have said multiple times in this thread that yes!

---

THANK YOU!!

Now, point to exactly where you answered this question. From what I remember, you only answered that Roman Catholics believe the Eucharist bread and wine are consecrated into "exactly what the bread and wine was consecrated into during the Last Supper" or mostly to that effect. That is NOT answering the question. Which is why I had to follow that up with "Does 'same exact consecrated bread and wine' that you referred to in your answer mean that the bread IS the same body that Jesus disciples could see, and is the wine the same blood that was shed on the cross?

And you didn't answer that one as well.

But you finally have here, and I will address your answer in another post.

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

---

I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

---

Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.

But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.

See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.

---

It isn't "lying" because as I've clearly explained, you answering my question thusly:

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

.... clearly does NOT answer whether you are saying the bread is the same body as what the disciples were seeing, and the same blood as was shed on the cross.

If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

---

I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

---

Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.

But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.

See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.

---

It isn't "lying" because as I've clearly explained, you answering my question thusly:

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

.... clearly does NOT answer whether you are saying the bread is the same body as what the disciples were seeing, and the same blood as was shed on the cross.

If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

---

Again, you are asking for a material explanation for a metaphysical event. A sacred mystery of the faith.

CCC 1381. You quoted Augustine as saying that what could not be seen physically is understood spiritually. Your question cannot be answered by the senses but is answered by faith. A faith you don't share. Which is fine, it is your right and prerogative.

You are doing that thing where you don't want to take in the totality of what the Church teaches but instead want to play gotcha games with excerpts devoid of context. You will not receive a natural explanation for a metaphysical mystery of faith. That is fine by me. I've also told you that you don't need to believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe or St. Juan Diego's tilma. Metaphysical event.

But stop pretending like you haven't been given good faith explanations and answers to your questions simply because you refuse to accept them or, worse, because it fails to fall into some trap you think you have set.

You are unable to explain precisely, in terms that reconcile with the material world, how Jesus became incarnate of the Blessed Virgin. It is a sacred mystery that is a matter of faith. Your inability to explain it in no way undermines your belief in it or disproves it. Same thing here.

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

---

I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

---

Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.

But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.

See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.

---

It isn't "lying" because as I've clearly explained, you answering my question thusly:

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

.... clearly does NOT answer whether you are saying the bread is the same body as what the disciples were seeing, and the same blood as was shed on the cross.

If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

---

Again, you are asking for a material explanation for a metaphysical event. A sacred mystery of the faith.

CCC 1381. You quoted Augustine as saying that what could not be seen physically is understood spiritually. Your question cannot be answered by the senses but is answered by faith. A faith you don't share. Which is fine, it is your right and prerogative.

You are doing that thing where you don't want to take in the totality of what the Church teaches but instead want to play gotcha games with excerpts devoid of context. You will not receive a natural explanation for a metaphysical mystery of faith. That is fine by me. I've also told you that you don't need to believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe or St. Juan Diego's tilma. Metaphysical event.

But stop pretending like you haven't been given good faith explanations and answers to your questions simply because you refuse to accept them or, worse, because it fails to fall into some trap you think you have set.

You are unable to explain precisely, in terms that reconcile with the material world, how Jesus became incarnate of the Blessed Virgin. It is a sacred mystery that is a matter of faith. Your inability to explain it in no way undermines your belief in it or disproves it. Same thing here.

---

All I was asking was whether you agreed or did not agree with the statement I provided. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason I didn't accept your "answers" was because they didn't answer the question. I challenged your to point out where Sam answered the question, and you failed. I challenged you to provided exactly where YOU answered the question, and you failed. if you can't understand that your "answer"

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

... does NOT answer the question, then you have a comprehension. problem. I just don't know what else to say. You either get this or you don't. And if you have a problem with comprehension like that, I think this discussion with you ain't gonna be too productive. But I'll try anyway.

Much of this arguement falls on the greek translation interpretation


The phrase "this is my body" is the translation of the Greek phrases
(touto estin to sma mou) in Matthew 26:26, Mark
14:22, and Luke 22:19 literally, "this is the body of me" and
(touto mou estin to sma) in 1 Corinthians 11:24
literally, "this of me is the body."
A rather technical argument has been made to support more
"substantial" views of the nature of the Eucharist by Catholic, Eastern
Orthodox, and Lutheran authors based on this language against the
more "symbolic" understanding of the Supper. The argument is that
as the demonstrative "this," (touto) is a demonstrative neuter
singular; it cannot refer to the term "bread" (artos), which is
masculine, but rather the noun "body" (sma), which is neuter. As
a result of this and the fact that it is coupled with the verb (eimi) "to
be," Christ, according to some commentators, is teaching that the bread literally becomes the body of Jesus, with an alternative translation: "this [new entity] is the body of me," something at first blush problematic for
Protestant theology, which does not hold to a transformation of the
"substance" of the bread and water during the celebration of the Supper.
It is correct that the referent for the demonstrative "this" is "body."

However, it would be problematic to read much into such grammar. In
Greek grammar, there is an "interpretive ," wherein the verb ,
often in conjunction with (touto) or (ti), has the definition of
"meaning" or "[this] means."
Two notable instances of such can be seen in Matthew 27:46 and
Luke 18:36:
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice,
saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is [ (tout'
estin)] to say, My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?
(Matthew 27:46)
And hearing the multitude pass by, he asked what it meant
[ (ei touto)]. (Luke 18:36)
A symbolic meaning of "this is my body" can still be retained,
notwithstanding claims to the contrary. Furthermore, taking "is" in
a literalistic manner would result in some problems if one were to be
consistent in approach to the verb . For instance, in Luke 22:20, both
"cup" [ (potrion)] and the demonstrative are singular neuters.
However, in theologies that hold to a "substantial" ("bodily") view of
the nature of the Real Presence, it is not the cup but the contents thereof
(i.e., the wine) that is transformed into the blood of Christ. Of course,
just as "this is my body" is a literary device (the interpretative ) and
should not be taken in a literalistic fashion, neither should "this cup"
be interpreted as being the [blood of] the new covenant; in reality, it
too, is a literary device (synecdoche), all of which are harmonious with protestant theology of the Lord's Supper.

Avoiding what? Augustine believed in the real presence. Source Augustinian Order he founded.
Here is an article on it.

https://chnetwork.org/2010/03/16/st-augustines-belief-in-the-real-presence/
Pretty straight forward. Done.

You disagree, imagine that! Noted.

Next....

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

---

I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

---

Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.

But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.

See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.

---

It isn't "lying" because as I've clearly explained, you answering my question thusly:

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

.... clearly does NOT answer whether you are saying the bread is the same body as what the disciples were seeing, and the same blood as was shed on the cross.

If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

---

Again, you are asking for a material explanation for a metaphysical event. A sacred mystery of the faith.

CCC 1381. You quoted Augustine as saying that what could not be seen physically is understood spiritually. Your question cannot be answered by the senses but is answered by faith. A faith you don't share. Which is fine, it is your right and prerogative.

You are doing that thing where you don't want to take in the totality of what the Church teaches but instead want to play gotcha games with excerpts devoid of context. You will not receive a natural explanation for a metaphysical mystery of faith. That is fine by me. I've also told you that you don't need to believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe or St. Juan Diego's tilma. Metaphysical event.

But stop pretending like you haven't been given good faith explanations and answers to your questions simply because you refuse to accept them or, worse, because it fails to fall into some trap you think you have set.

You are unable to explain precisely, in terms that reconcile with the material world, how Jesus became incarnate of the Blessed Virgin. It is a sacred mystery that is a matter of faith. Your inability to explain it in no way undermines your belief in it or disproves it. Same thing here.

---

All I was asking was whether you agreed or did not agree with the statement I provided. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason I didn't accept your "answers" was because they didn't answer the question. I challenged your to point out where Sam answered the question, and you failed. I challenged you to provided exactly where YOU answered the question, and you failed. if you can't understand that your "answer"

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

... does NOT answer the question, then you have a comprehension. problem. I just don't know what else to say. You either get this or you don't. And if you have a problem with comprehension like that, I think this discussion with you ain't gonna be too productive. But I'll try anyway.

---

Is there some law of the universe of which am I unaware of that states your questions must be answered precisely in the manner you want so as to direct the conversation in precisely in the direction you want it to go? Can you please provide a citation?

The questions have been answered. You don't accept the answers because you find them unsatisfactory for whatever reason. You admit as much yourself. Fine, all within your prerogative.

More important, you have taken offense to me posting your style. Perhaps a lesson in there for someone exercising some self-reflection….

FLBear5630 said:

---

Avoiding what? Augustine believed in the real presence. Source Augustinian Order he founded.
Here is an article on it.

https://chnetwork.org/2010/03/16/st-augustines-belief-in-the-real-presence/
Pretty straight forward. Done.

You disagree, imagine that! Noted.

Next....

---

Still avoiding the question.

So, Catholics, what does it tell you that many of you can't answer the question?

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

---

I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

---

Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.

But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.

See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.

---

It isn't "lying" because as I've clearly explained, you answering my question thusly:

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

.... clearly does NOT answer whether you are saying the bread is the same body as what the disciples were seeing, and the same blood as was shed on the cross.

If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

---

Again, you are asking for a material explanation for a metaphysical event. A sacred mystery of the faith.

CCC 1381. You quoted Augustine as saying that what could not be seen physically is understood spiritually. Your question cannot be answered by the senses but is answered by faith. A faith you don't share. Which is fine, it is your right and prerogative.

You are doing that thing where you don't want to take in the totality of what the Church teaches but instead want to play gotcha games with excerpts devoid of context. You will not receive a natural explanation for a metaphysical mystery of faith. That is fine by me. I've also told you that you don't need to believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe or St. Juan Diego's tilma. Metaphysical event.

But stop pretending like you haven't been given good faith explanations and answers to your questions simply because you refuse to accept them or, worse, because it fails to fall into some trap you think you have set.

You are unable to explain precisely, in terms that reconcile with the material world, how Jesus became incarnate of the Blessed Virgin. It is a sacred mystery that is a matter of faith. Your inability to explain it in no way undermines your belief in it or disproves it. Same thing here.

---

All I was asking was whether you agreed or did not agree with the statement I provided. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason I didn't accept your "answers" was because they didn't answer the question. I challenged your to point out where Sam answered the question, and you failed. I challenged you to provided exactly where YOU answered the question, and you failed. if you can't understand that your "answer"

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

... does NOT answer the question, then you have a comprehension. problem. I just don't know what else to say. You either get this or you don't. And if you have a problem with comprehension like that, I think this discussion with you ain't gonna be too productive. But I'll try anyway.

---

Is there some law of the universe of which am I unaware of that states your questions must be answered precisely in the manner you want so as to direct the conversation in precisely in the direction you want it to go? Can you please provide a citation?

The questions have been answered. You don't accept the answers because you find them unsatisfactory for whatever reason. You admit as much yourself. Fine, all within your prerogative.

More important, you have taken offense to me posting your style. Perhaps a lesson in there for someone exercising some self-reflection….

---

So, here's why I asked that question.

You: The Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the bread IS the same body the disciples see, and the wine IS the same blood that was sacrificed on the cross. (You affirmed this)

Augustine: "Understand what I have said spiritually. You are NOT going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed."

Therefore, Augustine did NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.

Point proven.

Thank you.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

---

I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

---

Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.

But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.

See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.

---

It isn't "lying" because as I've clearly explained, you answering my question thusly:

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

.... clearly does NOT answer whether you are saying the bread is the same body as what the disciples were seeing, and the same blood as was shed on the cross.

If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

---

Again, you are asking for a material explanation for a metaphysical event. A sacred mystery of the faith.

CCC 1381. You quoted Augustine as saying that what could not be seen physically is understood spiritually. Your question cannot be answered by the senses but is answered by faith. A faith you don't share. Which is fine, it is your right and prerogative.

You are doing that thing where you don't want to take in the totality of what the Church teaches but instead want to play gotcha games with excerpts devoid of context. You will not receive a natural explanation for a metaphysical mystery of faith. That is fine by me. I've also told you that you don't need to believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe or St. Juan Diego's tilma. Metaphysical event.

But stop pretending like you haven't been given good faith explanations and answers to your questions simply because you refuse to accept them or, worse, because it fails to fall into some trap you think you have set.

You are unable to explain precisely, in terms that reconcile with the material world, how Jesus became incarnate of the Blessed Virgin. It is a sacred mystery that is a matter of faith. Your inability to explain it in no way undermines your belief in it or disproves it. Same thing here.

---

All I was asking was whether you agreed or did not agree with the statement I provided. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason I didn't accept your "answers" was because they didn't answer the question. I challenged your to point out where Sam answered the question, and you failed. I challenged you to provided exactly where YOU answered the question, and you failed. if you can't understand that your "answer"

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

... does NOT answer the question, then you have a comprehension. problem. I just don't know what else to say. You either get this or you don't. And if you have a problem with comprehension like that, I think this discussion with you ain't gonna be too productive. But I'll try anyway.

---

Is there some law of the universe of which am I unaware of that states your questions must be answered precisely in the manner you want so as to direct the conversation in precisely in the direction you want it to go? Can you please provide a citation?

The questions have been answered. You don't accept the answers because you find them unsatisfactory for whatever reason. You admit as much yourself. Fine, all within your prerogative.

More important, you have taken offense to me posting your style. Perhaps a lesson in there for someone exercising some self-reflection….

---

So, here's why I asked that question.

You: The Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the bread IS the same body the disciples see, and the wine IS the same blood that was sacrificed on the cross. (You affirmed this)

Augustine: "Understand what I have said spiritually. You are NOT going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed."

Therefore, Augustine did NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.

Point proven.

Thank you.

---

Please provide full quote or source. One sentence does not make a theological arguement.

FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

---

I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

---

Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.

But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.

See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.

---

It isn't "lying" because as I've clearly explained, you answering my question thusly:

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

.... clearly does NOT answer whether you are saying the bread is the same body as what the disciples were seeing, and the same blood as was shed on the cross.

If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

---

Again, you are asking for a material explanation for a metaphysical event. A sacred mystery of the faith.

CCC 1381. You quoted Augustine as saying that what could not be seen physically is understood spiritually. Your question cannot be answered by the senses but is answered by faith. A faith you don't share. Which is fine, it is your right and prerogative.

You are doing that thing where you don't want to take in the totality of what the Church teaches but instead want to play gotcha games with excerpts devoid of context. You will not receive a natural explanation for a metaphysical mystery of faith. That is fine by me. I've also told you that you don't need to believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe or St. Juan Diego's tilma. Metaphysical event.

But stop pretending like you haven't been given good faith explanations and answers to your questions simply because you refuse to accept them or, worse, because it fails to fall into some trap you think you have set.

You are unable to explain precisely, in terms that reconcile with the material world, how Jesus became incarnate of the Blessed Virgin. It is a sacred mystery that is a matter of faith. Your inability to explain it in no way undermines your belief in it or disproves it. Same thing here.

---

All I was asking was whether you agreed or did not agree with the statement I provided. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason I didn't accept your "answers" was because they didn't answer the question. I challenged your to point out where Sam answered the question, and you failed. I challenged you to provided exactly where YOU answered the question, and you failed. if you can't understand that your "answer"

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

... does NOT answer the question, then you have a comprehension. problem. I just don't know what else to say. You either get this or you don't. And if you have a problem with comprehension like that, I think this discussion with you ain't gonna be too productive. But I'll try anyway.

---

Is there some law of the universe of which am I unaware of that states your questions must be answered precisely in the manner you want so as to direct the conversation in precisely in the direction you want it to go? Can you please provide a citation?

The questions have been answered. You don't accept the answers because you find them unsatisfactory for whatever reason. You admit as much yourself. Fine, all within your prerogative.

More important, you have taken offense to me posting your style. Perhaps a lesson in there for someone exercising some self-reflection….

---

So, here's why I asked that question.

You: The Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the bread IS the same body the disciples see, and the wine IS the same blood that was sacrificed on the cross. (You affirmed this)

Augustine: "Understand what I have said spiritually. You are NOT going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed."

Therefore, Augustine did NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.

Point proven.

Thank you.

---

Please provide full quote or source. One sentence does not make a theological arguement.

---

You've literally been given the whole quote at least times or more already. Just goes to show you aren't reading anything, you're just reacting.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

---

I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

---

Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.

But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.

See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.

---

It isn't "lying" because as I've clearly explained, you answering my question thusly:

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

.... clearly does NOT answer whether you are saying the bread is the same body as what the disciples were seeing, and the same blood as was shed on the cross.

If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

---

Again, you are asking for a material explanation for a metaphysical event. A sacred mystery of the faith.

CCC 1381. You quoted Augustine as saying that what could not be seen physically is understood spiritually. Your question cannot be answered by the senses but is answered by faith. A faith you don't share. Which is fine, it is your right and prerogative.

You are doing that thing where you don't want to take in the totality of what the Church teaches but instead want to play gotcha games with excerpts devoid of context. You will not receive a natural explanation for a metaphysical mystery of faith. That is fine by me. I've also told you that you don't need to believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe or St. Juan Diego's tilma. Metaphysical event.

But stop pretending like you haven't been given good faith explanations and answers to your questions simply because you refuse to accept them or, worse, because it fails to fall into some trap you think you have set.

You are unable to explain precisely, in terms that reconcile with the material world, how Jesus became incarnate of the Blessed Virgin. It is a sacred mystery that is a matter of faith. Your inability to explain it in no way undermines your belief in it or disproves it. Same thing here.

---

All I was asking was whether you agreed or did not agree with the statement I provided. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason I didn't accept your "answers" was because they didn't answer the question. I challenged your to point out where Sam answered the question, and you failed. I challenged you to provided exactly where YOU answered the question, and you failed. if you can't understand that your "answer"

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

... does NOT answer the question, then you have a comprehension. problem. I just don't know what else to say. You either get this or you don't. And if you have a problem with comprehension like that, I think this discussion with you ain't gonna be too productive. But I'll try anyway.

---

Is there some law of the universe of which am I unaware of that states your questions must be answered precisely in the manner you want so as to direct the conversation in precisely in the direction you want it to go? Can you please provide a citation?

The questions have been answered. You don't accept the answers because you find them unsatisfactory for whatever reason. You admit as much yourself. Fine, all within your prerogative.

More important, you have taken offense to me posting your style. Perhaps a lesson in there for someone exercising some self-reflection….

---

So, here's why I asked that question.

You: The Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the bread IS the same body the disciples see, and the wine IS the same blood that was sacrificed on the cross. (You affirmed this)

Augustine: "Understand what I have said spiritually. You are NOT going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed."

Therefore, Augustine did NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.

Point proven.

Thank you.

---

Brother, we all know why you asked the question. Here's why you didn't catch the answer. There's a difference between the mortal body crucified on the cross and the risen body in heaven, yet they are the same body.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

---

I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

---

Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.

But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.

See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.

---

It isn't "lying" because as I've clearly explained, you answering my question thusly:

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

.... clearly does NOT answer whether you are saying the bread is the same body as what the disciples were seeing, and the same blood as was shed on the cross.

If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

---

Again, you are asking for a material explanation for a metaphysical event. A sacred mystery of the faith.

CCC 1381. You quoted Augustine as saying that what could not be seen physically is understood spiritually. Your question cannot be answered by the senses but is answered by faith. A faith you don't share. Which is fine, it is your right and prerogative.

You are doing that thing where you don't want to take in the totality of what the Church teaches but instead want to play gotcha games with excerpts devoid of context. You will not receive a natural explanation for a metaphysical mystery of faith. That is fine by me. I've also told you that you don't need to believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe or St. Juan Diego's tilma. Metaphysical event.

But stop pretending like you haven't been given good faith explanations and answers to your questions simply because you refuse to accept them or, worse, because it fails to fall into some trap you think you have set.

You are unable to explain precisely, in terms that reconcile with the material world, how Jesus became incarnate of the Blessed Virgin. It is a sacred mystery that is a matter of faith. Your inability to explain it in no way undermines your belief in it or disproves it. Same thing here.

---

All I was asking was whether you agreed or did not agree with the statement I provided. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason I didn't accept your "answers" was because they didn't answer the question. I challenged your to point out where Sam answered the question, and you failed. I challenged you to provided exactly where YOU answered the question, and you failed. if you can't understand that your "answer"

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

... does NOT answer the question, then you have a comprehension. problem. I just don't know what else to say. You either get this or you don't. And if you have a problem with comprehension like that, I think this discussion with you ain't gonna be too productive. But I'll try anyway.

---

Is there some law of the universe of which am I unaware of that states your questions must be answered precisely in the manner you want so as to direct the conversation in precisely in the direction you want it to go? Can you please provide a citation?

The questions have been answered. You don't accept the answers because you find them unsatisfactory for whatever reason. You admit as much yourself. Fine, all within your prerogative.

More important, you have taken offense to me posting your style. Perhaps a lesson in there for someone exercising some self-reflection….

---

So, here's why I asked that question.

You: The Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the bread IS the same body the disciples see, and the wine IS the same blood that was sacrificed on the cross. (You affirmed this)

Augustine: "Understand what I have said spiritually. You are NOT going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed."

Therefore, Augustine did NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.

Point proven.

Thank you.

---

Let me paraphrase you: "I don't believe this Doctor of your Church is any kind of authority on the topic, I don't believe what he believes or what you believe, but let me tell you exactly what it means. Check mate, Roman Catholics."

You are taking that quote out of context. You have been provided numerous other quotes from Augustine that present a much more nuanced view that can be harmonized with what Sam is representing to be Catholic teaching. A man of good will would engage that instead of trying to tell others what they really believe.

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

---

I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

---

Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.

But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.

See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.

---

It isn't "lying" because as I've clearly explained, you answering my question thusly:

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

.... clearly does NOT answer whether you are saying the bread is the same body as what the disciples were seeing, and the same blood as was shed on the cross.

If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

---

Again, you are asking for a material explanation for a metaphysical event. A sacred mystery of the faith.

CCC 1381. You quoted Augustine as saying that what could not be seen physically is understood spiritually. Your question cannot be answered by the senses but is answered by faith. A faith you don't share. Which is fine, it is your right and prerogative.

You are doing that thing where you don't want to take in the totality of what the Church teaches but instead want to play gotcha games with excerpts devoid of context. You will not receive a natural explanation for a metaphysical mystery of faith. That is fine by me. I've also told you that you don't need to believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe or St. Juan Diego's tilma. Metaphysical event.

But stop pretending like you haven't been given good faith explanations and answers to your questions simply because you refuse to accept them or, worse, because it fails to fall into some trap you think you have set.

You are unable to explain precisely, in terms that reconcile with the material world, how Jesus became incarnate of the Blessed Virgin. It is a sacred mystery that is a matter of faith. Your inability to explain it in no way undermines your belief in it or disproves it. Same thing here.

---

All I was asking was whether you agreed or did not agree with the statement I provided. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason I didn't accept your "answers" was because they didn't answer the question. I challenged your to point out where Sam answered the question, and you failed. I challenged you to provided exactly where YOU answered the question, and you failed. if you can't understand that your "answer"

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

... does NOT answer the question, then you have a comprehension. problem. I just don't know what else to say. You either get this or you don't. And if you have a problem with comprehension like that, I think this discussion with you ain't gonna be too productive. But I'll try anyway.

---

Is there some law of the universe of which am I unaware of that states your questions must be answered precisely in the manner you want so as to direct the conversation in precisely in the direction you want it to go? Can you please provide a citation?

The questions have been answered. You don't accept the answers because you find them unsatisfactory for whatever reason. You admit as much yourself. Fine, all within your prerogative.

More important, you have taken offense to me posting your style. Perhaps a lesson in there for someone exercising some self-reflection….

---

So, here's why I asked that question.

You: The Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the bread IS the same body the disciples see, and the wine IS the same blood that was sacrificed on the cross. (You affirmed this)

Augustine: "Understand what I have said spiritually. You are NOT going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed."

Therefore, Augustine did NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.

Point proven.

Thank you.

---

Brother, we all know why you asked the question. Here's why you didn't catch the answer. There's a difference between the mortal body crucified on the cross and the risen body in heaven, yet they are the same body.

---

What's that got to do with the fact that Augustine didn't believe the Eucharist bread and wine were the same body and blood that the disciples saw and would be shed on the cross? You seem to be conflating two different arguments.

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

---

I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

---

Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.

But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.

See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.

---

It isn't "lying" because as I've clearly explained, you answering my question thusly:

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

.... clearly does NOT answer whether you are saying the bread is the same body as what the disciples were seeing, and the same blood as was shed on the cross.

If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

---

Again, you are asking for a material explanation for a metaphysical event. A sacred mystery of the faith.

CCC 1381. You quoted Augustine as saying that what could not be seen physically is understood spiritually. Your question cannot be answered by the senses but is answered by faith. A faith you don't share. Which is fine, it is your right and prerogative.

You are doing that thing where you don't want to take in the totality of what the Church teaches but instead want to play gotcha games with excerpts devoid of context. You will not receive a natural explanation for a metaphysical mystery of faith. That is fine by me. I've also told you that you don't need to believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe or St. Juan Diego's tilma. Metaphysical event.

But stop pretending like you haven't been given good faith explanations and answers to your questions simply because you refuse to accept them or, worse, because it fails to fall into some trap you think you have set.

You are unable to explain precisely, in terms that reconcile with the material world, how Jesus became incarnate of the Blessed Virgin. It is a sacred mystery that is a matter of faith. Your inability to explain it in no way undermines your belief in it or disproves it. Same thing here.

---

All I was asking was whether you agreed or did not agree with the statement I provided. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason I didn't accept your "answers" was because they didn't answer the question. I challenged your to point out where Sam answered the question, and you failed. I challenged you to provided exactly where YOU answered the question, and you failed. if you can't understand that your "answer"

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

... does NOT answer the question, then you have a comprehension. problem. I just don't know what else to say. You either get this or you don't. And if you have a problem with comprehension like that, I think this discussion with you ain't gonna be too productive. But I'll try anyway.

---

Is there some law of the universe of which am I unaware of that states your questions must be answered precisely in the manner you want so as to direct the conversation in precisely in the direction you want it to go? Can you please provide a citation?

The questions have been answered. You don't accept the answers because you find them unsatisfactory for whatever reason. You admit as much yourself. Fine, all within your prerogative.

More important, you have taken offense to me posting your style. Perhaps a lesson in there for someone exercising some self-reflection….

---

So, here's why I asked that question.

You: The Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the bread IS the same body the disciples see, and the wine IS the same blood that was sacrificed on the cross. (You affirmed this)

Augustine: "Understand what I have said spiritually. You are NOT going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed."

Therefore, Augustine did NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.

Point proven.

Thank you.

---

There's a difference between the mortal body crucified on the cross and the risen body in heaven, yet they are the same body.

---

based on scripture, yes, they are the same body

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

---

I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

---

Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.

But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.

See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.

---

It isn't "lying" because as I've clearly explained, you answering my question thusly:

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

.... clearly does NOT answer whether you are saying the bread is the same body as what the disciples were seeing, and the same blood as was shed on the cross.

If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

---

Again, you are asking for a material explanation for a metaphysical event. A sacred mystery of the faith.

CCC 1381. You quoted Augustine as saying that what could not be seen physically is understood spiritually. Your question cannot be answered by the senses but is answered by faith. A faith you don't share. Which is fine, it is your right and prerogative.

You are doing that thing where you don't want to take in the totality of what the Church teaches but instead want to play gotcha games with excerpts devoid of context. You will not receive a natural explanation for a metaphysical mystery of faith. That is fine by me. I've also told you that you don't need to believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe or St. Juan Diego's tilma. Metaphysical event.

But stop pretending like you haven't been given good faith explanations and answers to your questions simply because you refuse to accept them or, worse, because it fails to fall into some trap you think you have set.

You are unable to explain precisely, in terms that reconcile with the material world, how Jesus became incarnate of the Blessed Virgin. It is a sacred mystery that is a matter of faith. Your inability to explain it in no way undermines your belief in it or disproves it. Same thing here.

---

All I was asking was whether you agreed or did not agree with the statement I provided. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason I didn't accept your "answers" was because they didn't answer the question. I challenged your to point out where Sam answered the question, and you failed. I challenged you to provided exactly where YOU answered the question, and you failed. if you can't understand that your "answer"

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

... does NOT answer the question, then you have a comprehension. problem. I just don't know what else to say. You either get this or you don't. And if you have a problem with comprehension like that, I think this discussion with you ain't gonna be too productive. But I'll try anyway.

---

Is there some law of the universe of which am I unaware of that states your questions must be answered precisely in the manner you want so as to direct the conversation in precisely in the direction you want it to go? Can you please provide a citation?

The questions have been answered. You don't accept the answers because you find them unsatisfactory for whatever reason. You admit as much yourself. Fine, all within your prerogative.

More important, you have taken offense to me posting your style. Perhaps a lesson in there for someone exercising some self-reflection….

---

So, here's why I asked that question.

You: The Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the bread IS the same body the disciples see, and the wine IS the same blood that was sacrificed on the cross. (You affirmed this)

Augustine: "Understand what I have said spiritually. You are NOT going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed."

Therefore, Augustine did NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.

Point proven.

Thank you.

---

Let me paraphrase you: "I don't believe this Doctor of your Church is any kind of authority on the topic, I don't believe what he believes or what you believe, but let me tell you exactly what it means. Check mate, Roman Catholics."

You are taking that quote out of context. You have been provided numerous other quotes from Augustine that present a much more nuanced view that can be harmonized with what Sam is representing to be Catholic teaching. A man of good will would engage that instead of trying to tell others what they really believe.

---

That quote is not out of context. The "context" argument is a pathetic attempt to dishonestly weasle out of what's clearly being said. Augustine disagrees with your church, therefore "it's out of context!"

I'd love to hear your explanation how it's out of context, though. Here's the whole quote (again), in context:

"What seemed difficult to them was his saying, "Unless a man eat my flesh, he will not have eternal life." They understood it foolishly. They thought in a carnal way and supposed that the Lord was going to cut off some pieces of this body and give the pieces to them. And they said, "This is a hard saying." They were the ones who were hard, not the saying. For the twelve disciples remained with him, and when the others left, they pointed out to him that those who had been scandalized by what he had said had left. But he instructed them and said to them, "It is the spirit which gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and life." Understand what I have said spiritually. You are not going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed. I have given you a sacrament. Understood spiritually, it will give you life. Although it must be celebrated visibly yet it should be understood invisibly."

- Augustine, Translated by J.E. Tweed. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 8. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1888.)


How can this quote be taken to mean anything but that Augustine did not believe that the eating of Jesus' flesh and drinking of his blood was going to be in the literal, physical sense? He clearly says it is a SPIRITUAL eating. The sacrament he is referring to is the Eucharist, and it is to be celebrated visibly, but "understood spiritually". This is clearly NOT the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

---

I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

---

Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.

But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.

See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.

---

It isn't "lying" because as I've clearly explained, you answering my question thusly:

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

.... clearly does NOT answer whether you are saying the bread is the same body as what the disciples were seeing, and the same blood as was shed on the cross.

If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

---

Again, you are asking for a material explanation for a metaphysical event. A sacred mystery of the faith.

CCC 1381. You quoted Augustine as saying that what could not be seen physically is understood spiritually. Your question cannot be answered by the senses but is answered by faith. A faith you don't share. Which is fine, it is your right and prerogative.

You are doing that thing where you don't want to take in the totality of what the Church teaches but instead want to play gotcha games with excerpts devoid of context. You will not receive a natural explanation for a metaphysical mystery of faith. That is fine by me. I've also told you that you don't need to believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe or St. Juan Diego's tilma. Metaphysical event.

But stop pretending like you haven't been given good faith explanations and answers to your questions simply because you refuse to accept them or, worse, because it fails to fall into some trap you think you have set.

You are unable to explain precisely, in terms that reconcile with the material world, how Jesus became incarnate of the Blessed Virgin. It is a sacred mystery that is a matter of faith. Your inability to explain it in no way undermines your belief in it or disproves it. Same thing here.

---

All I was asking was whether you agreed or did not agree with the statement I provided. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason I didn't accept your "answers" was because they didn't answer the question. I challenged your to point out where Sam answered the question, and you failed. I challenged you to provided exactly where YOU answered the question, and you failed. if you can't understand that your "answer"

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

... does NOT answer the question, then you have a comprehension. problem. I just don't know what else to say. You either get this or you don't. And if you have a problem with comprehension like that, I think this discussion with you ain't gonna be too productive. But I'll try anyway.

---

Is there some law of the universe of which am I unaware of that states your questions must be answered precisely in the manner you want so as to direct the conversation in precisely in the direction you want it to go? Can you please provide a citation?

The questions have been answered. You don't accept the answers because you find them unsatisfactory for whatever reason. You admit as much yourself. Fine, all within your prerogative.

More important, you have taken offense to me posting your style. Perhaps a lesson in there for someone exercising some self-reflection….

---

So, here's why I asked that question.

You: The Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the bread IS the same body the disciples see, and the wine IS the same blood that was sacrificed on the cross. (You affirmed this)

Augustine: "Understand what I have said spiritually. You are NOT going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed."

Therefore, Augustine did NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.

Point proven.

Thank you.

---

There's a difference between the mortal body crucified on the cross and the risen body in heaven, yet they are the same body.

---

based on scripture, yes, they are the same body

---

Not the same body in the sense that it wasn't Jesus' resurrected, glorified body that hung on the cross.

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

---

I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

---

Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.

But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.

See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.

---

It isn't "lying" because as I've clearly explained, you answering my question thusly:

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

.... clearly does NOT answer whether you are saying the bread is the same body as what the disciples were seeing, and the same blood as was shed on the cross.

If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

---

Again, you are asking for a material explanation for a metaphysical event. A sacred mystery of the faith.

CCC 1381. You quoted Augustine as saying that what could not be seen physically is understood spiritually. Your question cannot be answered by the senses but is answered by faith. A faith you don't share. Which is fine, it is your right and prerogative.

You are doing that thing where you don't want to take in the totality of what the Church teaches but instead want to play gotcha games with excerpts devoid of context. You will not receive a natural explanation for a metaphysical mystery of faith. That is fine by me. I've also told you that you don't need to believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe or St. Juan Diego's tilma. Metaphysical event.

But stop pretending like you haven't been given good faith explanations and answers to your questions simply because you refuse to accept them or, worse, because it fails to fall into some trap you think you have set.

You are unable to explain precisely, in terms that reconcile with the material world, how Jesus became incarnate of the Blessed Virgin. It is a sacred mystery that is a matter of faith. Your inability to explain it in no way undermines your belief in it or disproves it. Same thing here.

---

All I was asking was whether you agreed or did not agree with the statement I provided. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason I didn't accept your "answers" was because they didn't answer the question. I challenged your to point out where Sam answered the question, and you failed. I challenged you to provided exactly where YOU answered the question, and you failed. if you can't understand that your "answer"

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

... does NOT answer the question, then you have a comprehension. problem. I just don't know what else to say. You either get this or you don't. And if you have a problem with comprehension like that, I think this discussion with you ain't gonna be too productive. But I'll try anyway.

---

Is there some law of the universe of which am I unaware of that states your questions must be answered precisely in the manner you want so as to direct the conversation in precisely in the direction you want it to go? Can you please provide a citation?

The questions have been answered. You don't accept the answers because you find them unsatisfactory for whatever reason. You admit as much yourself. Fine, all within your prerogative.

More important, you have taken offense to me posting your style. Perhaps a lesson in there for someone exercising some self-reflection….

---

So, here's why I asked that question.

You: The Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the bread IS the same body the disciples see, and the wine IS the same blood that was sacrificed on the cross. (You affirmed this)

Augustine: "Understand what I have said spiritually. You are NOT going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed."

Therefore, Augustine did NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.

Point proven.

Thank you.

---

Let me paraphrase you: "I don't believe this Doctor of your Church is any kind of authority on the topic, I don't believe what he believes or what you believe, but let me tell you exactly what it means. Check mate, Roman Catholics."

---

Man, you really are not that bright. If this is supposed to be some sort of "gotcha", you are seriously confused. One does not have to believe in Augustine's authority to know that he is YOUR authority, and to know what he was talking about based on his writings.

The "check mate" is that what Augustine said DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS what you yourself affirmed was the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence. You seriously are so clueless, you can't even comprehend that you've lost the debate. What they say is true - winning an argument against a smart person is really difficult... but winning an argument against an idiot is impossible.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

---

I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

---

Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.

But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.

See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.

---

It isn't "lying" because as I've clearly explained, you answering my question thusly:

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

.... clearly does NOT answer whether you are saying the bread is the same body as what the disciples were seeing, and the same blood as was shed on the cross.

If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

---

Again, you are asking for a material explanation for a metaphysical event. A sacred mystery of the faith.

CCC 1381. You quoted Augustine as saying that what could not be seen physically is understood spiritually. Your question cannot be answered by the senses but is answered by faith. A faith you don't share. Which is fine, it is your right and prerogative.

You are doing that thing where you don't want to take in the totality of what the Church teaches but instead want to play gotcha games with excerpts devoid of context. You will not receive a natural explanation for a metaphysical mystery of faith. That is fine by me. I've also told you that you don't need to believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe or St. Juan Diego's tilma. Metaphysical event.

But stop pretending like you haven't been given good faith explanations and answers to your questions simply because you refuse to accept them or, worse, because it fails to fall into some trap you think you have set.

You are unable to explain precisely, in terms that reconcile with the material world, how Jesus became incarnate of the Blessed Virgin. It is a sacred mystery that is a matter of faith. Your inability to explain it in no way undermines your belief in it or disproves it. Same thing here.

---

All I was asking was whether you agreed or did not agree with the statement I provided. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason I didn't accept your "answers" was because they didn't answer the question. I challenged your to point out where Sam answered the question, and you failed. I challenged you to provided exactly where YOU answered the question, and you failed. if you can't understand that your "answer"

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

... does NOT answer the question, then you have a comprehension. problem. I just don't know what else to say. You either get this or you don't. And if you have a problem with comprehension like that, I think this discussion with you ain't gonna be too productive. But I'll try anyway.

---

Is there some law of the universe of which am I unaware of that states your questions must be answered precisely in the manner you want so as to direct the conversation in precisely in the direction you want it to go? Can you please provide a citation?

The questions have been answered. You don't accept the answers because you find them unsatisfactory for whatever reason. You admit as much yourself. Fine, all within your prerogative.

More important, you have taken offense to me posting your style. Perhaps a lesson in there for someone exercising some self-reflection….

---

So, here's why I asked that question.

You: The Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the bread IS the same body the disciples see, and the wine IS the same blood that was sacrificed on the cross. (You affirmed this)

Augustine: "Understand what I have said spiritually. You are NOT going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed."

Therefore, Augustine did NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.

Point proven.

Thank you.

---

Please provide full quote or source. One sentence does not make a theological arguement.

---

You've literally been given the whole quote at least times or more already. Just goes to show you aren't reading anything, you're just reacting.

---

You won't give it because you know you are playing games.

"Understand what I have said spiritually. You are not to eat this body which you see, nor to drink that blood which they who crucify me will pour out. I have commended to you a certain sacrament; spiritually understood, it will quicken you. Though it is needful that it be visibly celebrated, it must be spiritually understood."


The original text was intended for those that took John 6 literally, eating human flesh. As said, numerous times.

Augustine explained the Sacrament. Clearly, you fall into the category of not understanding the Sacrament. Augustine's quote is consistent with what Sam and a host of Catholics have explained to you numerous times. You are playing games. We do not disrespect your religion like this. Your behavior is disrespectful and malicious, definitely not Christian. Maybe you should go back to the beginning and ask yourself why you do this and whose glory are you serving.

Your next move will be to come back with a question for us or article written by some Parish Priest and ask "Do you agree"...

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

---

I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

---

Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.

But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.

See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.

---

It isn't "lying" because as I've clearly explained, you answering my question thusly:

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

.... clearly does NOT answer whether you are saying the bread is the same body as what the disciples were seeing, and the same blood as was shed on the cross.

If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

---

Again, you are asking for a material explanation for a metaphysical event. A sacred mystery of the faith.

CCC 1381. You quoted Augustine as saying that what could not be seen physically is understood spiritually. Your question cannot be answered by the senses but is answered by faith. A faith you don't share. Which is fine, it is your right and prerogative.

You are doing that thing where you don't want to take in the totality of what the Church teaches but instead want to play gotcha games with excerpts devoid of context. You will not receive a natural explanation for a metaphysical mystery of faith. That is fine by me. I've also told you that you don't need to believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe or St. Juan Diego's tilma. Metaphysical event.

But stop pretending like you haven't been given good faith explanations and answers to your questions simply because you refuse to accept them or, worse, because it fails to fall into some trap you think you have set.

You are unable to explain precisely, in terms that reconcile with the material world, how Jesus became incarnate of the Blessed Virgin. It is a sacred mystery that is a matter of faith. Your inability to explain it in no way undermines your belief in it or disproves it. Same thing here.

---

All I was asking was whether you agreed or did not agree with the statement I provided. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason I didn't accept your "answers" was because they didn't answer the question. I challenged your to point out where Sam answered the question, and you failed. I challenged you to provided exactly where YOU answered the question, and you failed. if you can't understand that your "answer"

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

... does NOT answer the question, then you have a comprehension. problem. I just don't know what else to say. You either get this or you don't. And if you have a problem with comprehension like that, I think this discussion with you ain't gonna be too productive. But I'll try anyway.

---

Is there some law of the universe of which am I unaware of that states your questions must be answered precisely in the manner you want so as to direct the conversation in precisely in the direction you want it to go? Can you please provide a citation?

The questions have been answered. You don't accept the answers because you find them unsatisfactory for whatever reason. You admit as much yourself. Fine, all within your prerogative.

More important, you have taken offense to me posting your style. Perhaps a lesson in there for someone exercising some self-reflection….

---

So, here's why I asked that question.

You: The Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the bread IS the same body the disciples see, and the wine IS the same blood that was sacrificed on the cross. (You affirmed this)

Augustine: "Understand what I have said spiritually. You are NOT going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed."

Therefore, Augustine did NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.

Point proven.

Thank you.

---

There's a difference between the mortal body crucified on the cross and the risen body in heaven, yet they are the same body.

---

based on scripture, yes, they are the same body

---

Not the same body in the sense that it wasn't Jesus' resurrected, glorified body that hung on the cross.

---

it wasnt? The glorified body had the pierced hands and side.. scripture states these things when Jesus is talking to Thomas and there was no body left in the tomb

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

---

I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

---

Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.

But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.

See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.

---

It isn't "lying" because as I've clearly explained, you answering my question thusly:

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

.... clearly does NOT answer whether you are saying the bread is the same body as what the disciples were seeing, and the same blood as was shed on the cross.

If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

---

Again, you are asking for a material explanation for a metaphysical event. A sacred mystery of the faith.

CCC 1381. You quoted Augustine as saying that what could not be seen physically is understood spiritually. Your question cannot be answered by the senses but is answered by faith. A faith you don't share. Which is fine, it is your right and prerogative.

You are doing that thing where you don't want to take in the totality of what the Church teaches but instead want to play gotcha games with excerpts devoid of context. You will not receive a natural explanation for a metaphysical mystery of faith. That is fine by me. I've also told you that you don't need to believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe or St. Juan Diego's tilma. Metaphysical event.

But stop pretending like you haven't been given good faith explanations and answers to your questions simply because you refuse to accept them or, worse, because it fails to fall into some trap you think you have set.

You are unable to explain precisely, in terms that reconcile with the material world, how Jesus became incarnate of the Blessed Virgin. It is a sacred mystery that is a matter of faith. Your inability to explain it in no way undermines your belief in it or disproves it. Same thing here.

---

All I was asking was whether you agreed or did not agree with the statement I provided. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason I didn't accept your "answers" was because they didn't answer the question. I challenged your to point out where Sam answered the question, and you failed. I challenged you to provided exactly where YOU answered the question, and you failed. if you can't understand that your "answer"

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

... does NOT answer the question, then you have a comprehension. problem. I just don't know what else to say. You either get this or you don't. And if you have a problem with comprehension like that, I think this discussion with you ain't gonna be too productive. But I'll try anyway.

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Is there some law of the universe of which am I unaware of that states your questions must be answered precisely in the manner you want so as to direct the conversation in precisely in the direction you want it to go? Can you please provide a citation?

The questions have been answered. You don't accept the answers because you find them unsatisfactory for whatever reason. You admit as much yourself. Fine, all within your prerogative.

More important, you have taken offense to me posting your style. Perhaps a lesson in there for someone exercising some self-reflection….

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So, here's why I asked that question.

You: The Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the bread IS the same body the disciples see, and the wine IS the same blood that was sacrificed on the cross. (You affirmed this)

Augustine: "Understand what I have said spiritually. You are NOT going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed."

Therefore, Augustine did NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.

Point proven.

Thank you.

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Please provide full quote or source. One sentence does not make a theological arguement.

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You've literally been given the whole quote at least times or more already. Just goes to show you aren't reading anything, you're just reacting.

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You won't give it because you know you are playing games.

"Understand what I have said spiritually. You are not to eat this body which you see, nor to drink that blood which they who crucify me will pour out. I have commended to you a certain sacrament; spiritually understood, it will quicken you. Though it is needful that it be visibly celebrated, it must be spiritually understood."


The original text was intended for those that took John 6 literally, eating human flesh. As said, numerous times.

Augustine explained the Sacrament. Clearly, you fall into the category of not understanding the Sacrament. Augustine's quote is consistent with what Sam and a host of Catholics have explained to you numerous times. You are playing games. We do not disrespect your religion like this. Your behavior is disrespectful and malicious, definitely not Christian. Maybe you should go back to the beginning and ask yourself why you do this and whose glory are you serving.

Your next move will be to come back with a question for us or article written by some Parish Priest and ask "Do you agree"...

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If you can't understand that Augustine clearly contradicts your church's stated view on the Real Presence, and that is clearly shown in my argument, then you're either in denial, you're lying, or you're just not that bright.

4th and Inches said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

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I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

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Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.

But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.

See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.

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It isn't "lying" because as I've clearly explained, you answering my question thusly:

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

.... clearly does NOT answer whether you are saying the bread is the same body as what the disciples were seeing, and the same blood as was shed on the cross.

If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

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Again, you are asking for a material explanation for a metaphysical event. A sacred mystery of the faith.

CCC 1381. You quoted Augustine as saying that what could not be seen physically is understood spiritually. Your question cannot be answered by the senses but is answered by faith. A faith you don't share. Which is fine, it is your right and prerogative.

You are doing that thing where you don't want to take in the totality of what the Church teaches but instead want to play gotcha games with excerpts devoid of context. You will not receive a natural explanation for a metaphysical mystery of faith. That is fine by me. I've also told you that you don't need to believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe or St. Juan Diego's tilma. Metaphysical event.

But stop pretending like you haven't been given good faith explanations and answers to your questions simply because you refuse to accept them or, worse, because it fails to fall into some trap you think you have set.

You are unable to explain precisely, in terms that reconcile with the material world, how Jesus became incarnate of the Blessed Virgin. It is a sacred mystery that is a matter of faith. Your inability to explain it in no way undermines your belief in it or disproves it. Same thing here.

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All I was asking was whether you agreed or did not agree with the statement I provided. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason I didn't accept your "answers" was because they didn't answer the question. I challenged your to point out where Sam answered the question, and you failed. I challenged you to provided exactly where YOU answered the question, and you failed. if you can't understand that your "answer"

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

... does NOT answer the question, then you have a comprehension. problem. I just don't know what else to say. You either get this or you don't. And if you have a problem with comprehension like that, I think this discussion with you ain't gonna be too productive. But I'll try anyway.

---

Is there some law of the universe of which am I unaware of that states your questions must be answered precisely in the manner you want so as to direct the conversation in precisely in the direction you want it to go? Can you please provide a citation?

The questions have been answered. You don't accept the answers because you find them unsatisfactory for whatever reason. You admit as much yourself. Fine, all within your prerogative.

More important, you have taken offense to me posting your style. Perhaps a lesson in there for someone exercising some self-reflection….

---

So, here's why I asked that question.

You: The Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the bread IS the same body the disciples see, and the wine IS the same blood that was sacrificed on the cross. (You affirmed this)

Augustine: "Understand what I have said spiritually. You are NOT going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed."

Therefore, Augustine did NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.

Point proven.

Thank you.

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There's a difference between the mortal body crucified on the cross and the risen body in heaven, yet they are the same body.

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based on scripture, yes, they are the same body

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Not the same body in the sense that it wasn't Jesus' resurrected, glorified body that hung on the cross.

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it wasnt? The glorified body had the pierced hands and side.. scripture states these things when Jesus is talking to Thomas and there was no body left in the tomb

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So Jesus' resurrected, glorified body was crucified on the cross?

Keep in mind that Jesus' body when Thomas felt his wounds was before Jesus had ascended to heaven and was glorified.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.

Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.

You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.

Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...

Get it?

---

I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.

So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.

It's clear that you're avoiding it.

---

Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.

But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.

See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.

---

It isn't "lying" because as I've clearly explained, you answering my question thusly:

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

.... clearly does NOT answer whether you are saying the bread is the same body as what the disciples were seeing, and the same blood as was shed on the cross.

If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

---

Again, you are asking for a material explanation for a metaphysical event. A sacred mystery of the faith.

CCC 1381. You quoted Augustine as saying that what could not be seen physically is understood spiritually. Your question cannot be answered by the senses but is answered by faith. A faith you don't share. Which is fine, it is your right and prerogative.

You are doing that thing where you don't want to take in the totality of what the Church teaches but instead want to play gotcha games with excerpts devoid of context. You will not receive a natural explanation for a metaphysical mystery of faith. That is fine by me. I've also told you that you don't need to believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe or St. Juan Diego's tilma. Metaphysical event.

But stop pretending like you haven't been given good faith explanations and answers to your questions simply because you refuse to accept them or, worse, because it fails to fall into some trap you think you have set.

You are unable to explain precisely, in terms that reconcile with the material world, how Jesus became incarnate of the Blessed Virgin. It is a sacred mystery that is a matter of faith. Your inability to explain it in no way undermines your belief in it or disproves it. Same thing here.

---

All I was asking was whether you agreed or did not agree with the statement I provided. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason I didn't accept your "answers" was because they didn't answer the question. I challenged your to point out where Sam answered the question, and you failed. I challenged you to provided exactly where YOU answered the question, and you failed. if you can't understand that your "answer"

"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"

... does NOT answer the question, then you have a comprehension. problem. I just don't know what else to say. You either get this or you don't. And if you have a problem with comprehension like that, I think this discussion with you ain't gonna be too productive. But I'll try anyway.

---

Is there some law of the universe of which am I unaware of that states your questions must be answered precisely in the manner you want so as to direct the conversation in precisely in the direction you want it to go? Can you please provide a citation?

The questions have been answered. You don't accept the answers because you find them unsatisfactory for whatever reason. You admit as much yourself. Fine, all within your prerogative.

More important, you have taken offense to me posting your style. Perhaps a lesson in there for someone exercising some self-reflection….

---

So, here's why I asked that question.

You: The Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the bread IS the same body the disciples see, and the wine IS the same blood that was sacrificed on the cross. (You affirmed this)

Augustine: "Understand what I have said spiritually. You are NOT going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed."

Therefore, Augustine did NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.

Point proven.

Thank you.

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Let me paraphrase you: "I don't believe this Doctor of your Church is any kind of authority on the topic, I don't believe what he believes or what you believe, but let me tell you exactly what it means. Check mate, Roman Catholics."

You are taking that quote out of context. You have been provided numerous other quotes from Augustine that present a much more nuanced view that can be harmonized with what Sam is representing to be Catholic teaching. A man of good will would engage that instead of trying to tell others what they really believe.

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That quote is not out of context. The "context" argument is a pathetic attempt to dishonestly weasle out of what's clearly being said. Augustine disagrees with your church, therefore "it's out of context!"

I'd love to hear your explanation how it's out of context, though. Here's the whole quote (again), in context:

"What seemed difficult to them was his saying, "Unless a man eat my flesh, he will not have eternal life." They understood it foolishly. They thought in a carnal way and supposed that the Lord was going to cut off some pieces of this body and give the pieces to them. And they said, "This is a hard saying." They were the ones who were hard, not the saying. For the twelve disciples remained with him, and when the others left, they pointed out to him that those who had been scandalized by what he had said had left. But he instructed them and said to them, "It is the spirit which gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and life." Understand what I have said spiritually. You are not going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed. I have given you a sacrament. Understood spiritually, it will give you life. Although it must be celebrated visibly yet it should be understood invisibly."

- Augustine, Translated by J.E. Tweed. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 8. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1888.)


How can this quote be taken to mean anything but that Augustine did not believe that the eating of Jesus' flesh and drinking of his blood was going to be in the literal, physical sense? He clearly says it is a SPIRITUAL eating. The sacrament he is referring to is the Eucharist, and it is to be celebrated visibly, but "understood spiritually". This is clearly NOT the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.

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LOL, the entire intro to the "full version" you are quoting shows you are still doing it out of context. You're just being lazy. Augustine is trying to make sense of what it means to worship the footstool of the Lord and to worship the Earth. Here is the lead in to what you quoted:

In another passage of the Scriptures it is said, The heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool. Isaiah 66:1 Does he then bid us worship the earth, since in another passage it is said, that it is God's footstool? How then shall we worship the earth, when the Scripture says openly, You shall worship the Lord your God? Deuteronomy 6:13 Yet here it says, fall down before His footstool: and, explaining to us what His footstool is, it says, The earth is My footstool. I am in doubt; I fear to worship the earth, lest He who made the heaven and the earth condemn me; again, I fear not to worship the footstool of my Lord, because the Psalm bids me, fall down before His footstool. I ask, what is His footstool? And the Scripture tells me, the earth is My footstool. In hesitation I turn unto Christ, since I am herein seeking Himself: and I discover how the earth may be worshipped without impiety, how His footstool may be worshipped without impiety. For He took upon Him earth from earth; because flesh is from earth, and He received flesh from the flesh of Mary. And because He walked here in very flesh, and gave that very flesh to us to eat for our salvation; and no one eats that flesh, unless he has first worshipped: we have found out in what sense such a footstool of our Lord's may be worshipped, and not only that we sin not in worshipping it, but that we sin in not worshipping.

He is talking about the worship of the Eucharist, the flesh of the Lord that came from the Earth.

Also Augustine:

"I had promised those of you who have just been baptized a sermon to explain the sacrament of the Lord's table, which you can see right now, and which you shared in last night. You ought to know what you have received, what you are about to receive, what you ought to receive every day. That bread which you can see on the altar, sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ.2 That cup, or rather what the cup contains, sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ. It was by means of these things that the Lord Christ wished to present us with his body and blood, which he shed for our sake for the forgiveness of sins. If you receive them well, you are yourselves what you receive." Sermon 227

"For what you see is simply bread and a cup - this is the information your eyes report. But your faith demands far subtler insight: the bread is Christ's body, the cup is Christ's blood." Sermon 272

There is much more if you actually want to study it yourself.