DallasBear9902 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:DallasBear9902 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:DallasBear9902 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:DallasBear9902 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:DallasBear9902 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:FLBear5630 said:
Because it is fun and you provide a target rich environment.
Seriously, because you are told answers over and over that you don't want to accept. We Catholics are supposed to accept your information as accurate and correct, but you do not provide the same courtesy. That is not a good trait. Many on here explain at nauseum why Catholics believe what they believe, but you know more. So, it is not an informational thing, it is a personality thing. Hence, the personal attacks.
You do not agree with the Catholic Church, you and several million others, great. Don't join. Go to whatever group you form or do believe in. More power to you. Nobody is going to make you go to a Catholic Church and do anything.
Got questions, we will answer our understanding and if it is not enough link you to others with better understanding. Learn as much as you like, don't tell us we are wrong and you are right. This isn't Math, nobody really knows what comes next just faith in it is close to what we believe. Best we can do at the end of the day. And us Catholics try to do better...
Get it?
I don't accept your "answers" that you've told me "over and over" because they are NOT answering the question.
So I'm asking a very specific question to focus you onto the peritnent issue. A question that is still unanswered by you.
It's clear that you're avoiding it.
Don't accept it. That is your prerogative.
But stop lying and saying it hasn't been answered. It has been answered, you just don't accept the answer.
See folks, he admits the question has been answered. He just refuses to accept the answer because it is not what he wants.
It isn't "lying" because as I've clearly explained, you answering my question thusly:
"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"
.... clearly does NOT answer whether you are saying the bread is the same body as what the disciples were seeing, and the same blood as was shed on the cross.
If you can't see this, then there's nothing I can do to help you.
Again, you are asking for a material explanation for a metaphysical event. A sacred mystery of the faith.
CCC 1381. You quoted Augustine as saying that what could not be seen physically is understood spiritually. Your question cannot be answered by the senses but is answered by faith. A faith you don't share. Which is fine, it is your right and prerogative.
You are doing that thing where you don't want to take in the totality of what the Church teaches but instead want to play gotcha games with excerpts devoid of context. You will not receive a natural explanation for a metaphysical mystery of faith. That is fine by me. I've also told you that you don't need to believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe or St. Juan Diego's tilma. Metaphysical event.
But stop pretending like you haven't been given good faith explanations and answers to your questions simply because you refuse to accept them or, worse, because it fails to fall into some trap you think you have set.
You are unable to explain precisely, in terms that reconcile with the material world, how Jesus became incarnate of the Blessed Virgin. It is a sacred mystery that is a matter of faith. Your inability to explain it in no way undermines your belief in it or disproves it. Same thing here.
All I was asking was whether you agreed or did not agree with the statement I provided. Nothing more, nothing less.
The reason I didn't accept your "answers" was because they didn't answer the question. I challenged your to point out where Sam answered the question, and you failed. I challenged you to provided exactly where YOU answered the question, and you failed. if you can't understand that your "answer"
"I believe the Liturgy of Eucharist culminates in the same exact consecrated bread and wine as occurred at The Last Supper. Nothing more and nothing less"
... does NOT answer the question, then you have a comprehension. problem. I just don't know what else to say. You either get this or you don't. And if you have a problem with comprehension like that, I think this discussion with you ain't gonna be too productive. But I'll try anyway.
Is there some law of the universe of which am I unaware of that states your questions must be answered precisely in the manner you want so as to direct the conversation in precisely in the direction you want it to go? Can you please provide a citation?
The questions have been answered. You don't accept the answers because you find them unsatisfactory for whatever reason. You admit as much yourself. Fine, all within your prerogative.
More important, you have taken offense to me posting your style. Perhaps a lesson in there for someone exercising some self-reflection….
So, here's why I asked that question.
You: The Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence is that the bread IS the same body the disciples see, and the wine IS the same blood that was sacrificed on the cross. (You affirmed this)
Augustine: "Understand what I have said spiritually. You are NOT going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed."
Therefore, Augustine did NOT believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.
Point proven.
Thank you.
Let me paraphrase you: "I don't believe this Doctor of your Church is any kind of authority on the topic, I don't believe what he believes or what you believe, but let me tell you exactly what it means. Check mate, Roman Catholics."
You are taking that quote out of context. You have been provided numerous other quotes from Augustine that present a much more nuanced view that can be harmonized with what Sam is representing to be Catholic teaching. A man of good will would engage that instead of trying to tell others what they really believe.
That quote is not out of context. The "context" argument is a pathetic attempt to dishonestly weasle out of what's clearly being said. Augustine disagrees with your church, therefore "it's out of context!"
I'd love to hear your explanation how it's out of context, though. Here's the whole quote (again), in context:
"What seemed difficult to them was his saying, "Unless a man eat my flesh, he will not have eternal life." They understood it foolishly. They thought in a carnal way and supposed that the Lord was going to cut off some pieces of this body and give the pieces to them. And they said, "This is a hard saying." They were the ones who were hard, not the saying. For the twelve disciples remained with him, and when the others left, they pointed out to him that those who had been scandalized by what he had said had left. But he instructed them and said to them, "It is the spirit which gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit and life." Understand what I have said spiritually. You are not going to eat this body which you see. Nor are you going to drink the blood which those who crucify me are going to shed. I have given you a sacrament. Understood spiritually, it will give you life. Although it must be celebrated visibly yet it should be understood invisibly."
- Augustine, Translated by J.E. Tweed. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 8. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1888.)
How can this quote be taken to mean anything but that Augustine did not believe that the eating of Jesus' flesh and drinking of his blood was going to be in the literal, physical sense? He clearly says it is a SPIRITUAL eating. The sacrament he is referring to is the Eucharist, and it is to be celebrated visibly, but "understood spiritually". This is clearly NOT the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.
LOL, the entire intro to the "full version" you are quoting shows you are still doing it out of context. You're just being lazy. Augustine is trying to make sense of what it means to worship the footstool of the Lord and to worship the Earth. Here is the lead in to what you quoted:
In another passage of the Scriptures it is said, The heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool. Isaiah 66:1 Does he then bid us worship the earth, since in another passage it is said, that it is God's footstool? How then shall we worship the earth, when the Scripture says openly, You shall worship the Lord your God? Deuteronomy 6:13 Yet here it says, fall down before His footstool: and, explaining to us what His footstool is, it says, The earth is My footstool. I am in doubt; I fear to worship the earth, lest He who made the heaven and the earth condemn me; again, I fear not to worship the footstool of my Lord, because the Psalm bids me, fall down before His footstool. I ask, what is His footstool? And the Scripture tells me, the earth is My footstool. In hesitation I turn unto Christ, since I am herein seeking Himself: and I discover how the earth may be worshipped without impiety, how His footstool may be worshipped without impiety. For He took upon Him earth from earth; because flesh is from earth, and He received flesh from the flesh of Mary. And because He walked here in very flesh, and gave that very flesh to us to eat for our salvation; and no one eats that flesh, unless he has first worshipped: we have found out in what sense such a footstool of our Lord's may be worshipped, and not only that we sin not in worshipping it, but that we sin in not worshipping.
He is talking about the worship of the Eucharist, the flesh of the Lord that came from the Earth.
Also Augustine:
"I had promised those of you who have just been baptized a sermon to explain the sacrament of the Lord's table, which you can see right now, and which you shared in last night. You ought to know what you have received, what you are about to receive, what you ought to receive every day. That bread which you can see on the altar, sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ.2 That cup, or rather what the cup contains, sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ. It was by means of these things that the Lord Christ wished to present us with his body and blood, which he shed for our sake for the forgiveness of sins. If you receive them well, you are yourselves what you receive." Sermon 227
"For what you see is simply bread and a cup - this is the information your eyes report. But your faith demands far subtler insight: the bread is Christ's body, the cup is Christ's blood." Sermon 272
There is much more if you actually want to study it yourself.
All of it supports what this Board, the Vatican, and the Augustinian Order have all said. You are wrong, Augustine believed in the real presence of christ in the eucharist, the sacrament. Done...
Maybe you should go through Catholic instructions and join. You seem obsessed with Catholicism, really looks like the Holy Spirit is working on you to join the OG of denominations.
