FLBear5630 said:

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LOL, you didn't show anything. You showed a few quotes on a subject you misunderstood and is clearly explained by the Augustinian Order. But, if it makes you feel better and brings you closer to God, keep telling yourself that.


As for Neuman, did you read anything else on that subject? I linked several sources. Once again, you totally misunderstood and read only one point out of his decades of writings.

But, you seem to get off on finding little quotes out of oceans of writings and latching on to those. Are you a failed Academic or Baptist Theologian? Seems like your pattern.

Neuman and Augustine are great models for you, as they both started on different paths and through scholarship learned the Church is where they belong. You are on the right path.

---

Maybe YOU didn't understand what he said? His words are pretty clear.

Don't link any sources - YOU tell me what, where, and how those sources show that he didn't believe what he said in the quote I gave. Otherwise, it says you're full of it.

And keep going with your silly retorts that I'm headed toward the false church of Roman Catholicism. It really is all you have.

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Why keep denying. You spend so much time reading about the Catholic Church and discussing it, you are a closet Catholic.

I thought at first you were attacking the Church, then it dawned on me. You are looking for validation with your fascination with the Catholic Church.

Keep going, you will get there. This is how the Holy Spirit works, it is a process. As I said, based on your argumentative nature, Jesuits would be a good group to discuss your fascination and concerns. Boston College is great, have experience there.

---

Just sitting back, watching all the cognitive dissonance yield these kinds of silly retorts, because it's all you guys have.

---

We are good. No one here brought up any questions or issues about religious dogma but you. We are trying to help you out by spending a lot of time interacting, Christian Duty to help those that are struggling with their faith, and providing source material. Only you can make the jump. There is no definitive guide to give you the slam dunk answers you seem to want, maybe that is really what faith is about.

---

Still would like to hear what you have to say about Newman's quotes, though, and what it means for sola scriptura. I noticed that you guys got real quiet after that one. I think the Augustine issue has been settled. If you still think he believed in the Real Presence, then you're just ignoring the facts in front of your face and living in your own little world.

---

Newman wrote those letters while he was an Anglican.

---

Neuman clearly had a strong view of the value of the scriptures. But, as the quote below shows, he also believed it was perfect in combination with the Church.

Let no one then take refuge and comfort in the idea that he will be what is commonly called an orthodox Protestant,I mean, that he will be just this and no more; that he will admit the doctrine of the Trinity, but not that of the Apostolic Succession,of the Atonement, but not of the Eucharist,of the influences of grace, but not of Baptism. This is an impossible position: it is shutting one eye, and looking with the other. Shut both or open both. Deny that there is any necessary doctrine in Scripture, or consent to infer indirectly from Scripture what you at present disbelieve. (Discussions and Arguments, "On the Structure of the Bible")

As Neuman himself say, one cannot look at the one quote without looking at the rest. It would be like only looking out of one eye. Very well said by the latest Doctor of the Church.

St. John Henry Newman's Profound Insights on Sacred Scripture - St. Paul Center

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Why keep denying. You spend so much time reading about the Catholic Church and discussing it, you are a closet Catholic.

I thought at first you were attacking the Church, then it dawned on me. You are looking for validation with your fascination with the Catholic Church.

Keep going, you will get there. This is how the Holy Spirit works, it is a process. As I said, based on your argumentative nature, Jesuits would be a good group to discuss your fascination and concerns. Boston College is great, have experience there.

---

Just sitting back, watching all the cognitive dissonance yield these kinds of silly retorts, because it's all you guys have.

---

We are good. No one here brought up any questions or issues about religious dogma but you. We are trying to help you out by spending a lot of time interacting, Christian Duty to help those that are struggling with their faith, and providing source material. Only you can make the jump. There is no definitive guide to give you the slam dunk answers you seem to want, maybe that is really what faith is about.

---

Still would like to hear what you have to say about Newman's quotes, though, and what it means for sola scriptura. I noticed that you guys got real quiet after that one. I think the Augustine issue has been settled. If you still think he believed in the Real Presence, then you're just ignoring the facts in front of your face and living in your own little world.

---

Newman wrote those letters while he was an Anglican.

---

Neuman clearly had a strong view of the value of the scriptures. But, as the quote below shows, he also believed it was perfect in combination with the Church.

Let no one then take refuge and comfort in the idea that he will be what is commonly called an orthodox Protestant,I mean, that he will be just this and no more; that he will admit the doctrine of the Trinity, but not that of the Apostolic Succession,of the Atonement, but not of the Eucharist,of the influences of grace, but not of Baptism. This is an impossible position: it is shutting one eye, and looking with the other. Shut both or open both. Deny that there is any necessary doctrine in Scripture, or consent to infer indirectly from Scripture what you at present disbelieve. (Discussions and Arguments, "On the Structure of the Bible")

As Neuman himself say, one cannot look at the one quote without looking at the rest. It would be like only looking out of one eye. Very well said by the latest Doctor of the Church.

St. John Henry Newman's Profound Insights on Sacred Scripture - St. Paul Center

---

That's what HE'S saying about HIS belief. The quote I gave was him saying that sola scriptura was the practice of the ancient church. THAT was the point. That sola scriptura goes back to the beginning, in contradiction to your church's claims.

I knew you'd lose focus and start arguing about what he personally believed. I was waiting for it. This puts your entire comprehension of the Augustine debate under question. A comprehension problem is exactly what I suspected.

Keep fighting.

You don't realize how silly you sound stating you proved Augustine did not believe in the real presence, don't you? Here is a link, I am sure we have given you this one before. Looking forward to you telling us it really doesn't mean what St Louis University says it does.

St. Augustine's Theology of the Eucharist - St. Paul Center

FLBear5630 said:

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Keep fighting.

You don't realize how silly you sound stating you proved Augustine did not believe in the real presence, don't you? Here is a link, I am sure we have given you this one before. Looking forward to you telling us it really doesn't mean what St Louis University says it does.

St. Augustine's Theology of the Eucharist - St. Paul Center

---

Again, don't give me a link. YOU give me the argument. It'll show whether you're even comprehending what they're arguing to begin with, and how it counters what I'm saying. I have my doubts, though.

You need to engage your brain and think through this, and not just swallow what your authorities give you, if this is going to be productive for you.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Why keep denying. You spend so much time reading about the Catholic Church and discussing it, you are a closet Catholic.

I thought at first you were attacking the Church, then it dawned on me. You are looking for validation with your fascination with the Catholic Church.

Keep going, you will get there. This is how the Holy Spirit works, it is a process. As I said, based on your argumentative nature, Jesuits would be a good group to discuss your fascination and concerns. Boston College is great, have experience there.

---

Just sitting back, watching all the cognitive dissonance yield these kinds of silly retorts, because it's all you guys have.

---

We are good. No one here brought up any questions or issues about religious dogma but you. We are trying to help you out by spending a lot of time interacting, Christian Duty to help those that are struggling with their faith, and providing source material. Only you can make the jump. There is no definitive guide to give you the slam dunk answers you seem to want, maybe that is really what faith is about.

---

Still would like to hear what you have to say about Newman's quotes, though, and what it means for sola scriptura. I noticed that you guys got real quiet after that one. I think the Augustine issue has been settled. If you still think he believed in the Real Presence, then you're just ignoring the facts in front of your face and living in your own little world.

---

Newman wrote those letters while he was an Anglican.

---

Neuman clearly had a strong view of the value of the scriptures. But, as the quote below shows, he also believed it was perfect in combination with the Church.

Let no one then take refuge and comfort in the idea that he will be what is commonly called an orthodox Protestant,I mean, that he will be just this and no more; that he will admit the doctrine of the Trinity, but not that of the Apostolic Succession,of the Atonement, but not of the Eucharist,of the influences of grace, but not of Baptism. This is an impossible position: it is shutting one eye, and looking with the other. Shut both or open both. Deny that there is any necessary doctrine in Scripture, or consent to infer indirectly from Scripture what you at present disbelieve. (Discussions and Arguments, "On the Structure of the Bible")

As Neuman himself say, one cannot look at the one quote without looking at the rest. It would be like only looking out of one eye. Very well said by the latest Doctor of the Church.

St. John Henry Newman's Profound Insights on Sacred Scripture - St. Paul Center

---

That's what HE'S saying about HIS belief. The quote I gave was him saying that sola scriptura was the practice of the ancient church. THAT was the point. That sola scriptura goes back to the beginning, in contradiction to your church's claims.

I knew you'd lose focus and start arguing about what he personally believed. I was waiting for it. This puts your entire comprehension of the Augustine debate under question. A comprehension problem is exactly what I suspected.

---

You are ridiculous. Of course we are talking about what a Doctor of the Church believes, that is their job - to teach. That is why they are made Doctors, their opinions are authoritative. They are where you go for arbitration when you have these disagreements. You don't go to some SicEm guy that says he knows more than John Henry Neuman about Catholicism and Scripture. You think we are going to defer to you???? Yeah, 50 years of reading Catholic Doctors and I am going to go to BusyTarp-guy? Forget City of God, BusyTarp guy says they got it wrong, stop reading Augustine...


Come on, you can't believe any practicing Catholic would take your word? This is fun because it makes us look stuff up and re-read stuff. Impact my faith? You can't be serious.

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Why keep denying. You spend so much time reading about the Catholic Church and discussing it, you are a closet Catholic.

I thought at first you were attacking the Church, then it dawned on me. You are looking for validation with your fascination with the Catholic Church.

Keep going, you will get there. This is how the Holy Spirit works, it is a process. As I said, based on your argumentative nature, Jesuits would be a good group to discuss your fascination and concerns. Boston College is great, have experience there.

---

Just sitting back, watching all the cognitive dissonance yield these kinds of silly retorts, because it's all you guys have.

---

We are good. No one here brought up any questions or issues about religious dogma but you. We are trying to help you out by spending a lot of time interacting, Christian Duty to help those that are struggling with their faith, and providing source material. Only you can make the jump. There is no definitive guide to give you the slam dunk answers you seem to want, maybe that is really what faith is about.

---

Still would like to hear what you have to say about Newman's quotes, though, and what it means for sola scriptura. I noticed that you guys got real quiet after that one. I think the Augustine issue has been settled. If you still think he believed in the Real Presence, then you're just ignoring the facts in front of your face and living in your own little world.

---

Newman wrote those letters while he was an Anglican.

---

Neuman clearly had a strong view of the value of the scriptures. But, as the quote below shows, he also believed it was perfect in combination with the Church.

Let no one then take refuge and comfort in the idea that he will be what is commonly called an orthodox Protestant,I mean, that he will be just this and no more; that he will admit the doctrine of the Trinity, but not that of the Apostolic Succession,of the Atonement, but not of the Eucharist,of the influences of grace, but not of Baptism. This is an impossible position: it is shutting one eye, and looking with the other. Shut both or open both. Deny that there is any necessary doctrine in Scripture, or consent to infer indirectly from Scripture what you at present disbelieve. (Discussions and Arguments, "On the Structure of the Bible")

As Neuman himself say, one cannot look at the one quote without looking at the rest. It would be like only looking out of one eye. Very well said by the latest Doctor of the Church.

St. John Henry Newman's Profound Insights on Sacred Scripture - St. Paul Center

---

That's what HE'S saying about HIS belief. The quote I gave was him saying that sola scriptura was the practice of the ancient church. THAT was the point. That sola scriptura goes back to the beginning, in contradiction to your church's claims.

I knew you'd lose focus and start arguing about what he personally believed. I was waiting for it. This puts your entire comprehension of the Augustine debate under question. A comprehension problem is exactly what I suspected.

---

You are ridiculous. Of course we are talking about what a Doctor of the Church believes, that is their job - to teach. That is why they are made Doctors, their opinions are authoritative. They are where you go for arbitration when you have these disagreements. You don't go to some SicEm guy that says he knows more than John Henry Neuman about Catholicism and Scripture. You think we are going to defer to you???? Yeah, 50 years of reading Catholic Doctors and I am going to go to BusyTarp-guy? Forget City of God, BusyTarp guy says they got it wrong, stop reading Augustine...


Come on, you can't believe any practicing Catholic would take your word? This is fun because it makes us look stuff up and re-read stuff. Impact my faith? You can't be serious.

---

Seriously, are you really this dense?

What do you think I was arguing when I provided that quote from Newman - that HE personally believed in sola scriptura? Think slowly.

Good grief.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Why keep denying. You spend so much time reading about the Catholic Church and discussing it, you are a closet Catholic.

I thought at first you were attacking the Church, then it dawned on me. You are looking for validation with your fascination with the Catholic Church.

Keep going, you will get there. This is how the Holy Spirit works, it is a process. As I said, based on your argumentative nature, Jesuits would be a good group to discuss your fascination and concerns. Boston College is great, have experience there.

---

Just sitting back, watching all the cognitive dissonance yield these kinds of silly retorts, because it's all you guys have.

---

We are good. No one here brought up any questions or issues about religious dogma but you. We are trying to help you out by spending a lot of time interacting, Christian Duty to help those that are struggling with their faith, and providing source material. Only you can make the jump. There is no definitive guide to give you the slam dunk answers you seem to want, maybe that is really what faith is about.

---

Still would like to hear what you have to say about Newman's quotes, though, and what it means for sola scriptura. I noticed that you guys got real quiet after that one. I think the Augustine issue has been settled. If you still think he believed in the Real Presence, then you're just ignoring the facts in front of your face and living in your own little world.

---

Newman wrote those letters while he was an Anglican.

---

So?

---

So he changed his mind.

Of course, he is a Doctor of the Church. You were playing gotcha until we showed it was part of a bigger philosophy. Then it was, not him personally.

Come on, you are really bad at this. You just strengthened the believes of the Catholics on here. The more we listen to your ridiculous gotcha's the more the Catholic faith rings true. Thanks.

Who is next that we don't want to know what they Personally believe? We hit Augustine, Neuman,

Want to try for Loyola? Maybe Francis? Acquinas? What did they really believe that doesn't matter?

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Why keep denying. You spend so much time reading about the Catholic Church and discussing it, you are a closet Catholic.

I thought at first you were attacking the Church, then it dawned on me. You are looking for validation with your fascination with the Catholic Church.

Keep going, you will get there. This is how the Holy Spirit works, it is a process. As I said, based on your argumentative nature, Jesuits would be a good group to discuss your fascination and concerns. Boston College is great, have experience there.

---

Just sitting back, watching all the cognitive dissonance yield these kinds of silly retorts, because it's all you guys have.

---

We are good. No one here brought up any questions or issues about religious dogma but you. We are trying to help you out by spending a lot of time interacting, Christian Duty to help those that are struggling with their faith, and providing source material. Only you can make the jump. There is no definitive guide to give you the slam dunk answers you seem to want, maybe that is really what faith is about.

---

Still would like to hear what you have to say about Newman's quotes, though, and what it means for sola scriptura. I noticed that you guys got real quiet after that one. I think the Augustine issue has been settled. If you still think he believed in the Real Presence, then you're just ignoring the facts in front of your face and living in your own little world.

---

Newman wrote those letters while he was an Anglican.

---

So?

---

So he changed his mind.

---

How do you know?

FLBear5630 said:

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Of course, he is a Doctor of the Church. You were playing gotcha until we showed it was part of a bigger philosophy. Then it was, not him personally.

Come on, you are really bad at this. You just strengthened the believes of the Catholics on here. The more we listen to your ridiculous gotcha's the more the Catholic faith rings true. Thanks.

Who is next that we don't want to know what they Personally believe? We hit Augustine, Neuman,

Want to try for Loyola? Maybe Francis? Acquinas? What did they really believe that doesn't matter?

---

Look, I'm honestly not trying to hurt you or be offensive, but I really want to have an intelligent discussion on this, and I can see it's not going to happen with you. I'm looking elsewhere.

Can a Roman Catholic address these quotes from Cardinal Newman who recently was made a Doctor of the Church, regarding sola scriptura?

"The more I read of Athanasius, Theodoret, etc., the more I see that the ancients did make the Scriptures the basis of their belief... when they met together in council, they brought the witness of tradition as a matter of fact, but when they discussed the matter in council, cleared their views, etc., proved their power, they always went to Scripture alone." - John Henry Newman, "Letter to Rev. R.H. Froude" (Aug 23, 1835), Letters and Correspondence of John Henry Newman p.113 (1890)

"All I have said is, that the Fathers all do appeal in all their controversies to Scripture as a final authority. When this occurs once only it may be an accident. When it occurs again and again uniformly, it does invest Scripture with the character of an exclusive Rule of Faith." - John Henry Newman, "Letter to F. Rogers" (Aug 31, 1837) Letters and Correspondence of John Henry Newman p. 113 (1890)


I would very much like an honest, intelligent discussion. I don't want to argue with children who just want to dodge, divert, play games, personally attack, etc. Doesn't Newman seem to be supporting the early church's belief and practice of sola scriptura?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Of course, he is a Doctor of the Church. You were playing gotcha until we showed it was part of a bigger philosophy. Then it was, not him personally.

Come on, you are really bad at this. You just strengthened the believes of the Catholics on here. The more we listen to your ridiculous gotcha's the more the Catholic faith rings true. Thanks.

Who is next that we don't want to know what they Personally believe? We hit Augustine, Neuman,

Want to try for Loyola? Maybe Francis? Acquinas? What did they really believe that doesn't matter?

---

Look, I'm honestly not trying to hurt you or be offensive, but I really want to have an intelligent discussion on this, and I can see it's not going to happen with you. I'm looking elsewhere.

---

Not fun is it?

Are you really going to talk? Or, are you going to do what you did last time.

You ask if Neuman supports, we give an answer and then you say I was waiting for you to say his personal believes.

You asked about Neuman's believes, until we provide them. Then it is something else.

Childish?

So, Roman Catholics... ANY intelligent argument?

Are the two unserious people above all that you have?

You don't want serious conversation, only agreement with you. Go back through and read all the responses, you play games why none are serious, except yours.

some of yall be really weird and hung up on religious minutia . Aren't we all pulling for the same thing? I don't get it. Love my Catholic bros and sis's. why sweat the small stuff. Yall don't have bigger fish to fry?

J.R. said:

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some of yall be really weird and hung up on religious minutia . Aren't we all pulling for the same thing? I don't get it. Love my Catholic bros and sis's. why sweat the small stuff. Yall don't have bigger fish to fry?

---

i am with JR.. fish fry tomorrow! TGIF!

J.R. said:

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some of yall be really weird and hung up on religious minutia . Aren't we all pulling for the same thing? I don't get it. Love my Catholic bros and sis's. why sweat the small stuff. Yall don't have bigger fish to fry?

---

Thanks JR

FLBear5630 said:

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You don't want serious conversation, only agreement with you. Go back through and read all the responses, you play games why none are serious, except yours.

---

I've asked you over and over and over to provide me with your argument, not just provide links. There are no games. I've confronted you with Augustine's and Newman's own words, and all you can offer are the knee-jerk "but, but, out of context!", "that's not what he said!", or "the Augustinian order agrees with me!".

Imagine my SHOCK that the Roman Catholic sources you cited agree with you!

You're just not capable of having this discussion. You've only answered with silly retorts, and you continuously invoke appeals to authority, without actually knowing and understanding the arguments of the links that you provided. How can you even know if those arguments make sense, if you're not engaging them with your own brain? You're just letting them think for you. That's the sign of someone who has fallen into a cult.

Regardless, I'm looking for Roman Catholics who are honest and who can think. I'm sorry, but from what you've demonstrated in this thread, you're just not it.

4th and Inches said:

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J.R. said:

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some of yall be really weird and hung up on religious minutia . Aren't we all pulling for the same thing? I don't get it. Love my Catholic bros and sis's. why sweat the small stuff. Yall don't have bigger fish to fry?

---

i am with JR.. fish fry tomorrow! TGIF!

---

You agree with this? Hmm....

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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J.R. said:

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some of yall be really weird and hung up on religious minutia . Aren't we all pulling for the same thing? I don't get it. Love my Catholic bros and sis's. why sweat the small stuff. Yall don't have bigger fish to fry?

---

Thanks JR

---

Umm, you may not know this, but his endorsement only makes my case stronger. A lot stronger.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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J.R. said:

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some of yall be really weird and hung up on religious minutia . Aren't we all pulling for the same thing? I don't get it. Love my Catholic bros and sis's. why sweat the small stuff. Yall don't have bigger fish to fry?

---

Thanks JR

---

Umm, you may not know this, but his endorsement only makes my case stronger. A lot stronger.

---

JR loving his neighbor proves your claim that Augustine doesn't believe in the Real Presence?

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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J.R. said:

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some of yall be really weird and hung up on religious minutia . Aren't we all pulling for the same thing? I don't get it. Love my Catholic bros and sis's. why sweat the small stuff. Yall don't have bigger fish to fry?

---

Thanks JR

---

Umm, you may not know this, but his endorsement only makes my case stronger. A lot stronger.

---

JR loving his neighbor proves your claim that Augustine doesn't believe in the Real Presence?

---

You might want to check the sort of tone and language JR commonly uses on this board.

Oldbear83 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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J.R. said:

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some of yall be really weird and hung up on religious minutia . Aren't we all pulling for the same thing? I don't get it. Love my Catholic bros and sis's. why sweat the small stuff. Yall don't have bigger fish to fry?

---

Thanks JR

---

Umm, you may not know this, but his endorsement only makes my case stronger. A lot stronger.

---

JR loving his neighbor proves your claim that Augustine doesn't believe in the Real Presence?

---

You might want to check the sort of tone and language JR commonly uses on this board.

---

JR recognizes Christians are all on the same team, BustyTarp thinks I'm going to hell because I pray a Rosary. I'm going team JR

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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J.R. said:

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some of yall be really weird and hung up on religious minutia . Aren't we all pulling for the same thing? I don't get it. Love my Catholic bros and sis's. why sweat the small stuff. Yall don't have bigger fish to fry?

---

Thanks JR

---

Umm, you may not know this, but his endorsement only makes my case stronger. A lot stronger.

---

JR loving his neighbor proves your claim that Augustine doesn't believe in the Real Presence?

---

His judgment is rather suspect, and so him seeing no problem with your views should raise red flags for you.

Oldbear83 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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J.R. said:

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some of yall be really weird and hung up on religious minutia . Aren't we all pulling for the same thing? I don't get it. Love my Catholic bros and sis's. why sweat the small stuff. Yall don't have bigger fish to fry?

---

Thanks JR

---

Umm, you may not know this, but his endorsement only makes my case stronger. A lot stronger.

---

JR loving his neighbor proves your claim that Augustine doesn't believe in the Real Presence?

---

You might want to check the sort of tone and language JR commonly uses on this board.

---

listen myopic bitter fella. Live and let live. I'm just using the trump bit of name calling and utter ridiculousness to help you Magaturds see what a clown show you are living in. Btw, I love my Buddhist brothers and Sisters here. Never met a kinder, gentler, culture of people ever. The Mercan Christian could learn a thing or two from them. Me thinks that is what Jesus would do. I'm just simple and don't have time for religious non-sense. We all gonna be surprised .

Thanks for proving my point, JR.

Roman Catholics, here's what we've established so far:

1. Augustine did not believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.

2. Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church, Cardinal Newman, admits that sola scriptura was a belief and practice of the early church.

So, the common refrain from Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians is that these Protestant views are mere recent "inventions" of the Reformation that do not trace back to the original, apostolic church. Obviously, the two items above seriously challenge, if not completely debunk, the RC and Orthodox position. Can anyone challenge this assertion?

I'm sure the issue isn't settled with Roman Catholics regarding Augustine, so this is what I would like to offer: give me the ONE statement from Augustine that you think BEST makes your case against mine. ONE at a time, please, and please provide the whole excerpt so we can look at it in context. We can go through multiple quotes, but just one at a time. I know that many of you gave me all sorts of links and quotes from Augustine that they used to argue that Augustine DID believe in the RC view of the Real Presence, but there were too many to respond to individually. But I would like to do that now, to argue my case more specifically. To recap my argument, in those quotes, Augustine was merely repeating the same figurative style when referring to the Eucharist that he said Jesus was speaking in. The belief from Roman Catholics here that he was speaking literally is the result of them reading literalism into it due to confirmation bias. We can explore that contention here and now, if anyone is game.

Regarding the Newman quote, if anyone wants to argue that Newman did NOT believe that sola scriptura was the apparent practice and belief of the ancient church, you're also welcome to try to make that argument as well. That's gonna be a hard case to make, though, since Newman was pretty clear and explicity about that, but you're welcome to try.

So any takers? Note: silly and time-wasting nonsense is not going to be answered. Serious arguments only, please.

J.R. said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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J.R. said:

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some of yall be really weird and hung up on religious minutia . Aren't we all pulling for the same thing? I don't get it. Love my Catholic bros and sis's. why sweat the small stuff. Yall don't have bigger fish to fry?

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Thanks JR

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Umm, you may not know this, but his endorsement only makes my case stronger. A lot stronger.

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JR loving his neighbor proves your claim that Augustine doesn't believe in the Real Presence?

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You might want to check the sort of tone and language JR commonly uses on this board.

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listen myopic bitter fella. Live and let live. I'm just using the trump bit of name calling and utter ridiculousness to help you Magaturds see what a clown show you are living in. Btw, I love my Buddhist brothers and Sisters here. Never met a kinder, gentler, culture of people ever. The Mercan Christian could learn a thing or two from them. Me thinks that is what Jesus would do. I'm just simple and don't have time for religious non-sense. We all gonna be surprised .

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J.R. and BigGame.... birds of a feather?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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J.R. said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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J.R. said:

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some of yall be really weird and hung up on religious minutia . Aren't we all pulling for the same thing? I don't get it. Love my Catholic bros and sis's. why sweat the small stuff. Yall don't have bigger fish to fry?

---

Thanks JR

---

Umm, you may not know this, but his endorsement only makes my case stronger. A lot stronger.

---

JR loving his neighbor proves your claim that Augustine doesn't believe in the Real Presence?

---

You might want to check the sort of tone and language JR commonly uses on this board.

---

listen myopic bitter fella. Live and let live. I'm just using the trump bit of name calling and utter ridiculousness to help you Magaturds see what a clown show you are living in. Btw, I love my Buddhist brothers and Sisters here. Never met a kinder, gentler, culture of people ever. The Mercan Christian could learn a thing or two from them. Me thinks that is what Jesus would do. I'm just simple and don't have time for religious non-sense. We all gonna be surprised .

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J.R. and BigGame.... birds of a feather?

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No that's where I differ. I treat others with dignity but I am a staunch Christian Nationalist.

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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J.R. said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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J.R. said:

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some of yall be really weird and hung up on religious minutia . Aren't we all pulling for the same thing? I don't get it. Love my Catholic bros and sis's. why sweat the small stuff. Yall don't have bigger fish to fry?

---

Thanks JR

---

Umm, you may not know this, but his endorsement only makes my case stronger. A lot stronger.

---

JR loving his neighbor proves your claim that Augustine doesn't believe in the Real Presence?

---

You might want to check the sort of tone and language JR commonly uses on this board.

---

listen myopic bitter fella. Live and let live. I'm just using the trump bit of name calling and utter ridiculousness to help you Magaturds see what a clown show you are living in. Btw, I love my Buddhist brothers and Sisters here. Never met a kinder, gentler, culture of people ever. The Mercan Christian could learn a thing or two from them. Me thinks that is what Jesus would do. I'm just simple and don't have time for religious non-sense. We all gonna be surprised .

---

J.R. and BigGame.... birds of a feather?

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No that's where I differ. I treat others with dignity but I am a staunch Christian Nationalist.

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Nah, what? Thought you were Catholic, man!

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Roman Catholics, here's what we've established so far:

1. Augustine did not believe in the Roman Catholic view of the Real Presence.

2. Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church, Cardinal Newman, admits that sola scriptura was a belief and practice of the early church.

So, the common refrain from Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians is that these Protestant views are mere recent "inventions" of the Reformation that do not trace back to the original, apostolic church. Obviously, the two items above seriously challenge, if not completely debunk, the RC and Orthodox position. Can anyone challenge this assertion?

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You might want to go back and re-read the thread. We'll wait.

Sam Lowry said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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J.R. said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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J.R. said:

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some of yall be really weird and hung up on religious minutia . Aren't we all pulling for the same thing? I don't get it. Love my Catholic bros and sis's. why sweat the small stuff. Yall don't have bigger fish to fry?

---

Thanks JR

---

Umm, you may not know this, but his endorsement only makes my case stronger. A lot stronger.

---

JR loving his neighbor proves your claim that Augustine doesn't believe in the Real Presence?

---

You might want to check the sort of tone and language JR commonly uses on this board.

---

listen myopic bitter fella. Live and let live. I'm just using the trump bit of name calling and utter ridiculousness to help you Magaturds see what a clown show you are living in. Btw, I love my Buddhist brothers and Sisters here. Never met a kinder, gentler, culture of people ever. The Mercan Christian could learn a thing or two from them. Me thinks that is what Jesus would do. I'm just simple and don't have time for religious non-sense. We all gonna be surprised .

---

J.R. and BigGame.... birds of a feather?

---

No that's where I differ. I treat others with dignity but I am a staunch Christian Nationalist.

---

Nah, what? Thought you were Catholic, man!

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It's complicated!