Realitybites said:

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Does the A, B, C, D or F go on a transcript? Or does P/F go on the transcript?

Now do you see the problem?

The issue with the pass/fail system is that it makes it impossible to differentiate excellence from mediocrity. The same thing goes for the national boards.

As for law school, I'm sure there are as many schemes in the training process as there are in that field in general.

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The P, and no, I don't see the problem. Show it to me in these students.
Student A: 4.0 GPA using traditional grading system all four years.
Student B: Passes all classes first year. P on transcript verifies this. Makes an A in all classes final three years. Final transcripted GPA 4.0
Both students graduate with the exact same GPA. If something is identical on the official transcript used for grad school and jobs, how was one student harmed? I work in education. I can't remember the last time someone wanted to know my GPAs. I used to not work in education for 10 years before I transferred over. Nobody asked me about my GPA there either, so just how sacred/important is this thing nobody really seems to care about after you graduate?

And I don't understand the boards comment. It's been posted several times on this thread students coming out of a pass fail college are comparable and have exceeded scores on post secondary entrance exams (GRE, MCAT, LSAT).

GRE finding: The Educational Testing Service explored data for a link between college GPA and a student's GRE score. They found a a weak direct correlation between undergraduate GPA and GRE scores. https://www.ets.org/gre/research.html If the correlation is weak, how reliable is it?

MCAT finding: Pass/fail preclinical grading is associated with improved student well-being. Studies do not demonstrate differences in United States Medical Licensing Examination (USMLE) scores after adopting pass/fail grading. We investigated the effect of preclinical grading on USMLE scores across 96 US medical schools. https://journals.stfm.org/familymedicine/2018/february/kim-2017-0081/ If a difference could not be found at 96 medical schools, does a difference even exist?

LSAT finding: This study did not examine schools that use pass/fail GPAs. Instead it explored GPAs across universities. It found that UGPA (undergraduate GPA) has become a weaker predictor of first-year law school performance. (UGPA) and LSAT scores act as largely independent variables. So if the GPA has become a weak predictor of law school success, why does it matter if the scale is A-F or P/F? Either way wouldn't it be a weak indicator.

El Oso said:

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cowboycwr said:

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So how is GPA calculated?

Does that mean GPA requirements for scholarships are going away?

For grad school, law school, nursing and medical school?

Just more watering down of the system to avoid "hurt feelings" for those that can't keep up and earn it.

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That differs from school to school, but most don't calculate it. Michigan is planning their transition for August 27 roll out. They have not released a full plan.

Maybe. Right now this is a fairly isolated thing. If it continues to gain traction, this will need to become part of the discussion.

Based on the dean of TAMU med school, I talked with two years ago, they admit based on college GPA, MCAT scores, etc. Scholarships are awarded in a similar fashion and retained at the end of year one as long as courses are passed and professors recommendations are solid.

College students will still get a GPA. In Michigan's case, it reflects sophomore through graduation. What would your GPA be if the courses you didn't want to take (core classes) were removed and only your major GPA was looked at? What if we calculated your GPA but removed your first year courses? This is somewhat similar.

I disagree on your last comment. Lots of research to support this benefits everyone. Yes, there will be kinks (scholarships) as you have noted, but those kinks are solvable.

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Freshmen in professional skill degree programs like architecture, music, music education, engineering, nursing, etc. would need to modify the pass/fail.
Having been there, I know music majors will be taking several music classes - theory, ear training, instrument/voice lessons, secondary instrument/voice class/lesson - that pass/fail would complicate their GPA in their field.
Personally, I hate to see that letter/number grades are being dumped in places because of the misuse of the grades by schools and professors (giving 80% A's for example). If grades still meant what they were designed to mean, B's wouldn't freak out so many students and grad schools. C's would mean average work. D's would mean needs improvement. F's would mean something wasn't turned in, study habits need improvement, test anxiety needs attention, deficiencies in previous classes needs addressing, or that class just isn't in the student's wheelhouse. Address those issues for students and the rest will improve. Pass/fail seems to ignore these.

P.S.
The president of a local junior college was found to be pressing professors to give better grades to students overall regardless of the work the students put out. She is no longer employed there this year.

EatMoreSalmon said:

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Freshmen in professional skill degree programs like architecture, music, music education, engineering, nursing, etc. would need to modify the pass/fail.
Having been there, I know music majors will be taking several music classes - theory, ear training, instrument/voice lessons, secondary instrument/voice class/lesson - that pass/fail would complicate their GPA in their field.

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Can you explain how it would complicate GPA? I'm not making the connection. It turns out after further investigation, a story on NBC said pass/fail will only apply to fall 2027 courses. Regular grades will begin in spring 2028. That pattern will repeat moving forward. Transfer students are excluded from this process. We're talking four, maybe five classes in total being pass fail because I imagine most freshman still take 12 to 15 hours that first semester.

So, I'm not making the connection how it complicates GPA, but I'm not in those fields. I was a poli sci major at Baylor when I started. Like most students eager to take a course in their major right out of the gate I took a poli sci class Aug-Dec. I got an A in the class. In this new scenario, that would be a P. My GPA then would have run on every class from Jan through graduation. Yes, one more A might have changed my final GPA from a 3.3 to a 3.4 (probably not, but maybe), so I don't see how this complicates it. And yes, I'm not using a major you listed because I did not do those, so I don't see the complication you say exists.

I still got a good job at graduation. I still got into grad school. It all worked out and none of it, in hindsight, seems to have been really impacted by my GPA.

And that president should have been relieved of her duties. It's okay to challenge professors to find ways to make students more successful. It's a whole other animal to say give them better grades.

El Oso said:

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EatMoreSalmon said:

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Freshmen in professional skill degree programs like architecture, music, music education, engineering, nursing, etc. would need to modify the pass/fail.
Having been there, I know music majors will be taking several music classes - theory, ear training, instrument/voice lessons, secondary instrument/voice class/lesson - that pass/fail would complicate their GPA in their field.

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Can you explain how it would complicate GPA? I'm not making the connection. It turns out after further investigation, a story on NBC said pass/fail will only apply to fall 2027 courses. Regular grades will begin in spring 2028. That pattern will repeat moving forward. Transfer students are excluded from this process. We're talking four, maybe five classes in total being pass fail because I imagine most freshman still take 12 to 15 hours that first semester.



And that president should have been relieved of her duties. It's okay to challenge professors to find ways to make students more successful. It's a whole other animal to say give them better grades.

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The complication comes in where GPA in your field of study applies. I had to take 8 classes in each of my first two semesters to satisfy requirements for my field. The hours per class were lower than if I was a liberal arts or science type of degree. Applied classes and classes (labs) attached to other classes to satisfy freshman requirements for my major. Plus the other core basic classes. Some degree plans have you taking multiple classes in your field right away. I had 5 that totaled 7 hours. It was difficult, as three of those 1 hour classes met multiple times a week.

Also, it starts now with pass/fail for only one semester. What happens after that seems to "work"?
While there is a difference between fluffing GPA like the failed JC president and going pass/fail, there doesn't seem to be a lot of difference in what they two are trying to accomplish in the end. A watered down curriculum.

El Oso said:

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The research I cited was 2022. That's post COVID. The A&M guy i met at a conference in 2024. That's pretty current.

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The 2024 was a conversation with one person at one school. Anecdotal is not evidence. So that fits what I said about "research" being of too small a size.

2022 means that is when they finished the research. But they began it before that. Any good research in any field takes years and years. Also, how big was it?

Well all I gotta say is I want the valedictorian operating on me

El loco can have the participation trophy guy

Danielsjackson114 said:

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Well all I gotta say is I want the valedictorian operating on me

El loco can have the participation trophy guy

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I have consistently stated that I would fully support Didn't Earn It if Didn't Earn It doctors only were allowed to operate on and fly planes populated by regressives.

EatMoreSalmon said:

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El Oso said:

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EatMoreSalmon said:

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Freshmen in professional skill degree programs like architecture, music, music education, engineering, nursing, etc. would need to modify the pass/fail.
Having been there, I know music majors will be taking several music classes - theory, ear training, instrument/voice lessons, secondary instrument/voice class/lesson - that pass/fail would complicate their GPA in their field.

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Can you explain how it would complicate GPA? I'm not making the connection. It turns out after further investigation, a story on NBC said pass/fail will only apply to fall 2027 courses. Regular grades will begin in spring 2028. That pattern will repeat moving forward. Transfer students are excluded from this process. We're talking four, maybe five classes in total being pass fail because I imagine most freshman still take 12 to 15 hours that first semester.



And that president should have been relieved of her duties. It's okay to challenge professors to find ways to make students more successful. It's a whole other animal to say give them better grades.

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The complication comes in where GPA in your field of study applies. I had to take 8 classes in each of my first two semesters to satisfy requirements for my field. The hours per class were lower than if I was a liberal arts or science type of degree. Applied classes and classes (labs) attached to other classes to satisfy freshman requirements for my major. Plus the other core basic classes. Some degree plans have you taking multiple classes in your field right away. I had 5 that totaled 7 hours. It was difficult, as three of those 1 hour classes met multiple times a week.

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This may need to be a degree plan decision then. And I believe it is as it currently stands at Michigan. It will only apply to students in the College of Literature, Science, and the Arts (LSA). That's about 10,400 students according to Google. That comes out to about 30% of the student body.

El Oso said:

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EatMoreSalmon said:

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El Oso said:

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EatMoreSalmon said:

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Freshmen in professional skill degree programs like architecture, music, music education, engineering, nursing, etc. would need to modify the pass/fail.
Having been there, I know music majors will be taking several music classes - theory, ear training, instrument/voice lessons, secondary instrument/voice class/lesson - that pass/fail would complicate their GPA in their field.

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Can you explain how it would complicate GPA? I'm not making the connection. It turns out after further investigation, a story on NBC said pass/fail will only apply to fall 2027 courses. Regular grades will begin in spring 2028. That pattern will repeat moving forward. Transfer students are excluded from this process. We're talking four, maybe five classes in total being pass fail because I imagine most freshman still take 12 to 15 hours that first semester.



And that president should have been relieved of her duties. It's okay to challenge professors to find ways to make students more successful. It's a whole other animal to say give them better grades.

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The complication comes in where GPA in your field of study applies. I had to take 8 classes in each of my first two semesters to satisfy requirements for my field. The hours per class were lower than if I was a liberal arts or science type of degree. Applied classes and classes (labs) attached to other classes to satisfy freshman requirements for my major. Plus the other core basic classes. Some degree plans have you taking multiple classes in your field right away. I had 5 that totaled 7 hours. It was difficult, as three of those 1 hour classes met multiple times a week.

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This may need to be a degree plan decision then. And I believe it is as it currently stands at Michigan. It will only apply to students in the College of Literature, Science, and the Arts (LSA). That's about 10,400 students according to Google. That comes out to about 30% of the student body.

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To me, it's another slippery slope to lower standards. In life there will be expectations to be met. Why protect students from that? They should have faced that plenty already in high school to learn to deal with it. It's a necessary life skill.