EatMoreSalmon said:

---

El Oso said:

---

GrowlTowel said:

---

A student that got an A on both exams has a greater mastery of the course than the student that only got an A on the final.

---

That's not true. The student who got an A on both has consistent mastery. They both are at an A at the end when it comes to knowledge. Learning is a roller coaster. It goes up and down. Some people can stay up the whole time. Other can't, but if they end with the exact same knowledge, what does any of that matter if the final grade should reflect what the student currently knows?

---

No matter what else we'd like to think, school grades were not just designed to show mastery of a subject. Part of schooling is socialization and honing good work habits. A student that consistently shows good work and work habits will typically grade higher than one that has crappy work habits. That needs to remain in the equation if education is to complete its full purpose.

Grades also can show who catches on quicker, which could be a good metric for a future employer.

It's not just about the specific subject matter.

---

Part of schooling is socialization and honing good work habits.--yes

A student that consistently shows good work and work habits will typically grade higher than one that has crappy work habits.--not necessarily. Some students have abilities others do not have. Good work habits don't always produce results. I saw a math tutor twice a week my entire sophomore year of high school for math. I passed the content, but I definitely did not know the content. You can work your ass off and still just get by. It isn't always an indicator of success.

I also disagree that education needs to be the caste systems it has become. Yes, it is meant to develop all of these things and more, but at what cost?

Catching on quickly doesn't always indicate employment success. Valuing speed over quality is a dangerous thing for a business. Fast workers also struggle with communication, collaboration, and finding deep rooted problems. Working quickly also leads to mental fatigue and burnout. It happened at my first career. It nearly happened again when I switched to education. I think it's better to learn how to pace yourself than catch on quickly for the sake of making a good impression.

D. C. Bear said:

---

El Oso said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

I think you should be graded on what your knowledge and mastery is now, not what it was a year or semester ago.

---

Using this thought:
Midterm exam: student makes a 75. Student is struggling, but learning. Student starts coming to tutoring and attends class regularly now.
Comprehensive final exam: Student makes a 90.

What grade should this student receive in the class?
A) 83 (B) each exam is weighted equally and this is the average.
B)The students should receive an A. The final exam was comprehensive and the student shows A mastery of course material.
C)Other--you tell me

I ask because I use four essays to determine the grade in my ENGL 1301 course. What usually happens is the student starts low and then finishes with two, maybe three really well done essays. Sometimes just one (the last one). It seems under your statement, I should give the student the last grade they received in my course because that is the best they can do using all the knowledge they have gained over the semester. Should I really just use the first three as graded practices? Should I weight each essay at a higher percentage than the one before? Should I just use a straight average? What grade best represents what a student actually learned in the course?

---

Kind of depends on what was in the syllabus. Did it include the option of the comprehensive final being the course grade?

---

No. The exams are weighted the same. Although if you want, you could say this is how you would do it, which would be answer choice C. My point is there are lots of ways this grade could be calculated. Which one is most accurate? I the goal is what you know at the end, and the end was comprehensive, then why shouldn't this student receive an A. This is where they are when they leave the course. It's not always where you start. It's where you finish and what you can do with that knowledge.

---

Had a Calculus professor who allowed the final exam to be the final grade in the class if you were in class every day. It was helpful.

Given that it's where you finish, would you consider lowering someone's grade beneath what they "earned" at the end if they did worse on the comprehensive final?

---

Every system has some kind of bias, and that certainly applies to college professors.

And we see it here, as well. Everyone of us has our idea of how this should work, and while some are similar, it does not see there is one system everyone will agree is "best".

I personally think allowing a student to retake a course is reasonable, since if it were not allowed, professors might feel they should 'let' a student pass who did not deserve it but gained the professor's sympathy. And there is no guarantee the student who fails the first time will necessarily do better on a retry.

El Oso said:

---

EatMoreSalmon said:

---

El Oso said:

---

GrowlTowel said:

---

A student that got an A on both exams has a greater mastery of the course than the student that only got an A on the final.

---

That's not true. The student who got an A on both has consistent mastery. They both are at an A at the end when it comes to knowledge. Learning is a roller coaster. It goes up and down. Some people can stay up the whole time. Other can't, but if they end with the exact same knowledge, what does any of that matter if the final grade should reflect what the student currently knows?

---

No matter what else we'd like to think, school grades were not just designed to show mastery of a subject. Part of schooling is socialization and honing good work habits. A student that consistently shows good work and work habits will typically grade higher than one that has crappy work habits. That needs to remain in the equation if education is to complete its full purpose.

Grades also can show who catches on quicker, which could be a good metric for a future employer.

It's not just about the specific subject matter.

---

Part of schooling is socialization and honing good work habits.--yes

A student that consistently shows good work and work habits will typically grade higher than one that has crappy work habits.--not necessarily. Some students have abilities others do not have. Good work habits don't always produce results. I saw a math tutor twice a week my entire sophomore year of high school for math. I passed the content, but I definitely did not know the content. You can work your ass off and still just get by. It isn't always an indicator of success.

I also disagree that education needs to be the caste systems it has become. Yes, it is meant to develop all of these things and more, but at what cost?

Catching on quickly doesn't always indicate employment success. Valuing speed over quality is a dangerous thing for a business. Fast workers also struggle with communication, collaboration, and finding deep rooted problems. Working quickly also leads to mental fatigue and burnout. It happened at my first career. It nearly happened again when I switched to education. I think it's better to learn how to pace yourself than catch on quickly for the sake of making a good impression.

---

Caste system? If students get good life training by example and encouragement, and get to find out what attainable skills they are good at and not as good at, they will be fine. Unless they just absolutely don't care - which is rare. One thing we don't do a good job of is teaching that failure when trying hard may not be fun, but is just as helpful to the student in their growth. "Know thyself" has always been good advice. Strength-learning needs more attention.

I know a young woman who is very bright, but that ability to know herself has been very hard for her. She is learning the hard way post school. She is not alone.

Standards can be a real problem when misused.

Oldbear83 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

El Oso said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

I think you should be graded on what your knowledge and mastery is now, not what it was a year or semester ago.

---

Using this thought:
Midterm exam: student makes a 75. Student is struggling, but learning. Student starts coming to tutoring and attends class regularly now.
Comprehensive final exam: Student makes a 90.

What grade should this student receive in the class?
A) 83 (B) each exam is weighted equally and this is the average.
B)The students should receive an A. The final exam was comprehensive and the student shows A mastery of course material.
C)Other--you tell me

I ask because I use four essays to determine the grade in my ENGL 1301 course. What usually happens is the student starts low and then finishes with two, maybe three really well done essays. Sometimes just one (the last one). It seems under your statement, I should give the student the last grade they received in my course because that is the best they can do using all the knowledge they have gained over the semester. Should I really just use the first three as graded practices? Should I weight each essay at a higher percentage than the one before? Should I just use a straight average? What grade best represents what a student actually learned in the course?

---

Kind of depends on what was in the syllabus. Did it include the option of the comprehensive final being the course grade?

---

No. The exams are weighted the same. Although if you want, you could say this is how you would do it, which would be answer choice C. My point is there are lots of ways this grade could be calculated. Which one is most accurate? I the goal is what you know at the end, and the end was comprehensive, then why shouldn't this student receive an A. This is where they are when they leave the course. It's not always where you start. It's where you finish and what you can do with that knowledge.

---

Had a Calculus professor who allowed the final exam to be the final grade in the class if you were in class every day. It was helpful.

Given that it's where you finish, would you consider lowering someone's grade beneath what they "earned" at the end if they did worse on the comprehensive final?

---

Every system has some kind of bias, and that certainly applies to college professors.

And we see it here, as well. Everyone of us has our idea of how this should work, and while some are similar, it does not see there is one system everyone will agree is "best".

I personally think allowing a student to retake a course is reasonable, since if it were not allowed, professors might feel they should 'let' a student pass who did not deserve it but gained the professor's sympathy. And there is no guarantee the student who fails the first time will necessarily do better on a retry.

---

I don't think the issue being discussed is whether a student can retake a course. It is how the retake grading is handled.

El Oso said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Posit a better solution.

---

Across several threads, I have posited that P/F and grade forgiveness may be a better solution. There's data to support both, but you reject the data so I don't know what to tell you.

Now you are in the business world, I assume, so you could speak to whether or not college graduates are prepared. We know the data say the ones under the current system do not seem to be right now. These new systems haven't been in place four to six years yet, so we don't know their impact yet. You speculate they won't work. I'm not so sure one way or the other yet.

---

Currently, I do not hire grads, but back in the day it really did depend on the school. As much as it pains me to say, TCU grads consistently performed well. They were smart and resilient.

I think what folks in education do not understand in terms of preparing people for the "real world" is that it is not the memorization of content that matters. In fact, with AI that will become increasingly irrelevant.

What matters is the demonstrable work ethic, organization, preparedness, ability to think and synthesize information, etc. Not one really is using the content they learn in secondary school or college - what they use is their ability to learn. That's why all this softening standards in the name of "equity" is hurting everyone.

EatMoreSalmon said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

El Oso said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

El Oso said:

---

Bestweekeverr said:

---

I think you should be graded on what your knowledge and mastery is now, not what it was a year or semester ago.

---

Using this thought:
Midterm exam: student makes a 75. Student is struggling, but learning. Student starts coming to tutoring and attends class regularly now.
Comprehensive final exam: Student makes a 90.

What grade should this student receive in the class?
A) 83 (B) each exam is weighted equally and this is the average.
B)The students should receive an A. The final exam was comprehensive and the student shows A mastery of course material.
C)Other--you tell me

I ask because I use four essays to determine the grade in my ENGL 1301 course. What usually happens is the student starts low and then finishes with two, maybe three really well done essays. Sometimes just one (the last one). It seems under your statement, I should give the student the last grade they received in my course because that is the best they can do using all the knowledge they have gained over the semester. Should I really just use the first three as graded practices? Should I weight each essay at a higher percentage than the one before? Should I just use a straight average? What grade best represents what a student actually learned in the course?

---

Kind of depends on what was in the syllabus. Did it include the option of the comprehensive final being the course grade?

---

No. The exams are weighted the same. Although if you want, you could say this is how you would do it, which would be answer choice C. My point is there are lots of ways this grade could be calculated. Which one is most accurate? I the goal is what you know at the end, and the end was comprehensive, then why shouldn't this student receive an A. This is where they are when they leave the course. It's not always where you start. It's where you finish and what you can do with that knowledge.

---

Had a Calculus professor who allowed the final exam to be the final grade in the class if you were in class every day. It was helpful.

Given that it's where you finish, would you consider lowering someone's grade beneath what they "earned" at the end if they did worse on the comprehensive final?

---

Every system has some kind of bias, and that certainly applies to college professors.

And we see it here, as well. Everyone of us has our idea of how this should work, and while some are similar, it does not see there is one system everyone will agree is "best".

I personally think allowing a student to retake a course is reasonable, since if it were not allowed, professors might feel they should 'let' a student pass who did not deserve it but gained the professor's sympathy. And there is no guarantee the student who fails the first time will necessarily do better on a retry.

---

I don't think the issue being discussed is whether a student can retake a course. It is how the retake grading is handled.

---

Sorry, in my mind 'retaking a class' effectively means replacing the first result with whatever you get the second try. The retake grading is fine as long as it's no less stringent than the first.