Gee, aren't you supposed to be one of the most Christian guys on here?GrowlTowel said:
The shooter lived in the courthouse?
Go screw yourself "preacher."
Gun Safety
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Last: 6 yr ago by Sam Lowry
Sorry but hello no Waco, you are wrong as usual and your emotions do not count as evidence.Waco1947 said:I'm sorry but no. The ball is in your court. Why aren't the current laws working?cowboycwr said:El Oso said:Exactly what. A lot happens when you buy a gun.Waco1947 said:Easy at the point of purchaseEl Oso said:Actually you are.Waco1947 said:You are begging the questionEl Oso said:Define easy.Waco1947 said:
I am wondering why existing gun laws made it so easy for the Virginia Beach shooter to obtain one.
Just because I have something does not mean I obtained it easily.
The fallacy of begging the question occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it.
I specifically questioned the truth of your statement. You assume it to be true.
I've seen no report on how he came by the gun.
Did he save up? Is he independently wealthy? How far does he live from the gun shop? Does he have a car if he lives far?
Maybe his NICS check didn't come back immediately, so he had to wait the mandatory 3 days one has to wait when that happens. (Not saying this happened because I don't know, but if it did--there goes a waiting period argument.)
So again--define easy.
1. Cost--prohibitive for many. So what's easy.
2. The form--yes, it's easy to fill out. They even give you a pen if you didn't bring one. Should we make people provide their own pens? One gun shop I use has you type your information in--maybe that's what makes it too easy.
3. But once you fill out the form--things are no longer in your hands:
a. a gun dealer can decline a sale at any time for any reason (even if the form comes back approved).
b. the ATF checks you out. Sometimes they send back a hold. If they do this, there is nothing you can do. You are not getting a gun for the next 3 days.
4. Which brings us to how does one get to the gun shop in the first place.
So again, define easy. What do you specifically know about this gun purchase that made it so easy. Keeping in mind--that I can't find anything about what happened at the shop he allegedly bought it from. And I use the word allegedly because only one media outlet is claiming he legally bought the gun.
Some good points. I would also add in
1. Some states have waiting periods after buying before you can pick up gun
2. Age requirements for buying a gun, handgun or rifle
So Waco the ball is in your hands now to explain how it is easy. Both oso and I have pointed out how it isn't easy and how the guns were bought legally several years apart.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
1. You must have missed the part where I said I didn't touch my gun. If I don't touch it, I can't shoot my dick off. I have yet to put my hand on my gun in a public setting. The existence of a gun does not equate with danger.Waco1947 said:And your response Oso?Waco1947 said:El Oso said:
So I have some questions:
1. How was I a danger to myself or others? Be specific. Don't generalize. Give me an actionable example of me and others being in danger.
"You shoot your dick off because you lose focus and accidentally shoot yourself. You are fallible."
2. I wasn't the only person armed last night. As I pointed out, there were about 12 police officers split up between traffic duty and security. Were their guns introducing danger or just mine? "All of you were introducing danger. You were surrounded by fallible human beings."
3. If just mine, what's the difference between a cop bringing a gun and a background cleared citizen bringing a gun? In Texas, LTC holders are statistically less likely to commit a crime than a police officer--by a lot. "Probably but you were in front of me I knew nothing of your background you would be a perceived danger to me. I have know way knowing of if are a licensed, trained or sane. I don't have ESP."
4. If we're both introducing danger into the situation, why doesn't your gun control argument call for the police to turn in their weapons as well? There were 6 of them (possibly more as I did not go inside) and 1 of me. The danger exponent from them had to be off the charts right? When I landed in Minneapolis, MN on Thursday morning, there were police officers walking the concourse with AR-15's slung over their shoulder, down their chest, pointed at the floor and their fingers next to the trigger. Was I really in mortal danger--or was I actually safer because I did not take my gun on this trip because I went with a bunch of anti-gun people and left my gun at home and was now adequately protected by the police in case something happened? ""'Mortal danger' is your word not mine. Again I have a certain level of faith in armed officers because of their uniforms and training. I have no reason to have faith in you if you are standing in front of me with a gun on your belt. Why should I trust a stranger?"
5. And why can't the government lead by example and turn in their weapons first? "Because it is their job to protect us not yours. You can protect your family but I have no need of your gun around me. I will take my chances with the police."
2. Your response is understandable but disagreed with. At least you seem to equate no difference with the cops and upstanding citizens.
3. It seems logical, but you missed the paragraph I devoted to how concealed my weapon was that in a crowd approaching 10,000 people, 12 of them specifically trained to spot dangerous people--not a single one of them noticed the gun.
4. You have faith in the officers because of their uniform. Me too. Shall we ask our black friends about the faith that uniform imparts? And again--I've been carrying a long time. Nobody knows. My boss is very anti-gun. I wear one to work every day and by default every time I'm in his office. He's never spotted it. The only reason I didn't take it to MN is because our return flight was identical--and you have to declare your firearm. There would be no way for him to not know.
5. Great job the government is doing in protecting me:
8.35 minutes (the average current response time in Dallas to a priority one (murders and armed and dangerous person).
Priority 2 (assaults and robberies) calls average over 22 minutes.
Priority 3 (burglaries and drugs) calls are at 67 minutes.
Priority 4 (trespassing and criminal mischief) calls are at 98.63 minutes (I could drive from my house to Baylor 8.63 minutes faster).
There were 40 murders in Dallas in May. that's more than 1 per day. One of those was 0.5 miles from my house. Several of those were in neighborhoods I drive through on the way to work or frequent while out with my family.
"Mother in law--I'm sorry your daughter and grand kids are dead. I called the cops and waited for my government to help me." I won't be making that call. I hope you won't have to.
Waco1947 said:I'm sorry but no. The ball is in your court. Why aren't the current laws working?cowboycwr said:El Oso said:Exactly what. A lot happens when you buy a gun.Waco1947 said:Easy at the point of purchaseEl Oso said:Actually you are.Waco1947 said:You are begging the questionEl Oso said:Define easy.Waco1947 said:
I am wondering why existing gun laws made it so easy for the Virginia Beach shooter to obtain one.
Just because I have something does not mean I obtained it easily.
The fallacy of begging the question occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it.
I specifically questioned the truth of your statement. You assume it to be true.
I've seen no report on how he came by the gun.
Did he save up? Is he independently wealthy? How far does he live from the gun shop? Does he have a car if he lives far?
Maybe his NICS check didn't come back immediately, so he had to wait the mandatory 3 days one has to wait when that happens. (Not saying this happened because I don't know, but if it did--there goes a waiting period argument.)
So again--define easy.
1. Cost--prohibitive for many. So what's easy.
2. The form--yes, it's easy to fill out. They even give you a pen if you didn't bring one. Should we make people provide their own pens? One gun shop I use has you type your information in--maybe that's what makes it too easy.
3. But once you fill out the form--things are no longer in your hands:
a. a gun dealer can decline a sale at any time for any reason (even if the form comes back approved).
b. the ATF checks you out. Sometimes they send back a hold. If they do this, there is nothing you can do. You are not getting a gun for the next 3 days.
4. Which brings us to how does one get to the gun shop in the first place.
So again, define easy. What do you specifically know about this gun purchase that made it so easy. Keeping in mind--that I can't find anything about what happened at the shop he allegedly bought it from. And I use the word allegedly because only one media outlet is claiming he legally bought the gun.
Some good points. I would also add in
1. Some states have waiting periods after buying before you can pick up gun
2. Age requirements for buying a gun, handgun or rifle
So Waco the ball is in your hands now to explain how it is easy. Both oso and I have pointed out how it isn't easy and how the guns were bought legally several years apart.
No it is in yours. You made a claim. Now it is time to step up and explain that.
He bought the guns legally. Years before the shooting.
So what law would you change to prevent this?
Murder is also illegal. Are you saying that law doesn't work as well?
What was so easy about the gun buying process he went through in 2016 that allowed for this shooting in 2019?
Man up and explain your claim or admit it has nothing to do with this shooting and you are just spreading lies as usual. Like your gun safety lie you spew every time and has been proven wrong.
Jinx 2 said:Gee, aren't you supposed to be one of the most Christian guys on here?GrowlTowel said:
The shooter lived in the courthouse?
Go screw yourself "preacher."
Lol. Great addition to the discussion as usual. What would you change to prevent things like this?
Oldbear83 said:Sorry but hello no Waco, you are wrong as usual and your emotions do not count as evidence.Waco1947 said:I'm sorry but no. The ball is in your court. Why aren't the current laws working?cowboycwr said:El Oso said:Exactly what. A lot happens when you buy a gun.Waco1947 said:Easy at the point of purchaseEl Oso said:Actually you are.Waco1947 said:You are begging the questionEl Oso said:Define easy.Waco1947 said:
I am wondering why existing gun laws made it so easy for the Virginia Beach shooter to obtain one.
Just because I have something does not mean I obtained it easily.
The fallacy of begging the question occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it.
I specifically questioned the truth of your statement. You assume it to be true.
I've seen no report on how he came by the gun.
Did he save up? Is he independently wealthy? How far does he live from the gun shop? Does he have a car if he lives far?
Maybe his NICS check didn't come back immediately, so he had to wait the mandatory 3 days one has to wait when that happens. (Not saying this happened because I don't know, but if it did--there goes a waiting period argument.)
So again--define easy.
1. Cost--prohibitive for many. So what's easy.
2. The form--yes, it's easy to fill out. They even give you a pen if you didn't bring one. Should we make people provide their own pens? One gun shop I use has you type your information in--maybe that's what makes it too easy.
3. But once you fill out the form--things are no longer in your hands:
a. a gun dealer can decline a sale at any time for any reason (even if the form comes back approved).
b. the ATF checks you out. Sometimes they send back a hold. If they do this, there is nothing you can do. You are not getting a gun for the next 3 days.
4. Which brings us to how does one get to the gun shop in the first place.
So again, define easy. What do you specifically know about this gun purchase that made it so easy. Keeping in mind--that I can't find anything about what happened at the shop he allegedly bought it from. And I use the word allegedly because only one media outlet is claiming he legally bought the gun.
Some good points. I would also add in
1. Some states have waiting periods after buying before you can pick up gun
2. Age requirements for buying a gun, handgun or rifle
So Waco the ball is in your hands now to explain how it is easy. Both oso and I have pointed out how it isn't easy and how the guns were bought legally several years apart.
In his world feelings are more important than facts.
Spewing talking points is easier for him than looking at the facts and proposing actual changes.
This guy bought one of the guns in 2016. 3 years before he used it. But Waco just wants to blame current laws for not working and spread the "buying a gun is too easy" lie that doesn't fit in this case.
"Why aren't the current laws working? "Waco1947 said:I'm sorry but no. The ball is in your court. Why aren't the current laws working?cowboycwr said:El Oso said:Exactly what. A lot happens when you buy a gun.Waco1947 said:Easy at the point of purchaseEl Oso said:Actually you are.Waco1947 said:You are begging the questionEl Oso said:Define easy.Waco1947 said:
I am wondering why existing gun laws made it so easy for the Virginia Beach shooter to obtain one.
Just because I have something does not mean I obtained it easily.
The fallacy of begging the question occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it.
I specifically questioned the truth of your statement. You assume it to be true.
I've seen no report on how he came by the gun.
Did he save up? Is he independently wealthy? How far does he live from the gun shop? Does he have a car if he lives far?
Maybe his NICS check didn't come back immediately, so he had to wait the mandatory 3 days one has to wait when that happens. (Not saying this happened because I don't know, but if it did--there goes a waiting period argument.)
So again--define easy.
1. Cost--prohibitive for many. So what's easy.
2. The form--yes, it's easy to fill out. They even give you a pen if you didn't bring one. Should we make people provide their own pens? One gun shop I use has you type your information in--maybe that's what makes it too easy.
3. But once you fill out the form--things are no longer in your hands:
a. a gun dealer can decline a sale at any time for any reason (even if the form comes back approved).
b. the ATF checks you out. Sometimes they send back a hold. If they do this, there is nothing you can do. You are not getting a gun for the next 3 days.
4. Which brings us to how does one get to the gun shop in the first place.
So again, define easy. What do you specifically know about this gun purchase that made it so easy. Keeping in mind--that I can't find anything about what happened at the shop he allegedly bought it from. And I use the word allegedly because only one media outlet is claiming he legally bought the gun.
Some good points. I would also add in
1. Some states have waiting periods after buying before you can pick up gun
2. Age requirements for buying a gun, handgun or rifle
So Waco the ball is in your hands now to explain how it is easy. Both oso and I have pointed out how it isn't easy and how the guns were bought legally several years apart.
That's the main thing/big question, isn't it? I suspect the roots of the problem are many and complex, so no wailing about nasty 2nd amendment supporters and the evil NRA will make much of a difference. I believe it has much to do with our inherently fallen nature and a general failure of the whole multi-culti agenda. Failure to assimilate and to form a society with commonly held instruments of unity produce a lot of friction which manifests in rage. Just my 2 cents. What's your take?
Waco1947 said:I'm sorry but no. The ball is in your court. Why aren't the current laws working?cowboycwr said:El Oso said:Exactly what. A lot happens when you buy a gun.Waco1947 said:Easy at the point of purchaseEl Oso said:Actually you are.Waco1947 said:You are begging the questionEl Oso said:Define easy.Waco1947 said:
I am wondering why existing gun laws made it so easy for the Virginia Beach shooter to obtain one.
Just because I have something does not mean I obtained it easily.
The fallacy of begging the question occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it.
I specifically questioned the truth of your statement. You assume it to be true.
I've seen no report on how he came by the gun.
Did he save up? Is he independently wealthy? How far does he live from the gun shop? Does he have a car if he lives far?
Maybe his NICS check didn't come back immediately, so he had to wait the mandatory 3 days one has to wait when that happens. (Not saying this happened because I don't know, but if it did--there goes a waiting period argument.)
So again--define easy.
1. Cost--prohibitive for many. So what's easy.
2. The form--yes, it's easy to fill out. They even give you a pen if you didn't bring one. Should we make people provide their own pens? One gun shop I use has you type your information in--maybe that's what makes it too easy.
3. But once you fill out the form--things are no longer in your hands:
a. a gun dealer can decline a sale at any time for any reason (even if the form comes back approved).
b. the ATF checks you out. Sometimes they send back a hold. If they do this, there is nothing you can do. You are not getting a gun for the next 3 days.
4. Which brings us to how does one get to the gun shop in the first place.
So again, define easy. What do you specifically know about this gun purchase that made it so easy. Keeping in mind--that I can't find anything about what happened at the shop he allegedly bought it from. And I use the word allegedly because only one media outlet is claiming he legally bought the gun.
Some good points. I would also add in
1. Some states have waiting periods after buying before you can pick up gun
2. Age requirements for buying a gun, handgun or rifle
So Waco the ball is in your hands now to explain how it is easy. Both oso and I have pointed out how it isn't easy and how the guns were bought legally several years apart.
Laws will never stop crazy from being crazy. That's why.
The biggest problem with gun laws today is that they create killing zones where armed maniacs know they can go and kill at will. The maniacs know existing laws will keep law-abiding citizens from being able to defend themselves and others in these places.
Your place of work is a legally designated kill zone.
Your local hospital is a legally designated kill zone.
Your children's school is a legally designated kill zone.
Your place of worship is a legally designated kill zone.
I think you get the idea.
Your place of work is a legally designated kill zone.
Your local hospital is a legally designated kill zone.
Your children's school is a legally designated kill zone.
Your place of worship is a legally designated kill zone.
I think you get the idea.
So you don't mind cops endangering the public with guns because it's their job to protect us, but you do have a problem with private citizens bringing guns into the home - even though you acknowledge that it's our job to protect our families? Please explain how that makes any sense.Waco1947 said:And your response Oso?Waco1947 said:El Oso said:Explain this to me one more time using this real life scenario I just experienced. It wasn't in my home, but there were thousands of people there, so in theory--it should have been a bigger problem than in my home where there are less than 10 (most of the time).Waco1947 said:
"Gun safety begins, then, not with technical fixes, but with spreading the truthful information: people who bring guns into their homes are endangering themselves and their loved ones." David Frum
Once again 11 dead
Yesterday was Richardson ISD graduation. My daughter knows some kids in the Richardson High School class of 2019 and she secured a ticket to attend. I dropped her off.
About 10:40 last night I picked her up. I was carrying a full size 9mm pistol with 17 rounds in the gun and an extra mag of 16 in my pocket. (The bullets I use are the exact same caliber and make that Richardson PD use.) The gun was concealed under my t-shirt. (All perfectly legal as long as I did not enter the venue--which I did not do or even attempt to do.)
As I waited, I took so many pictures of celebrating families, I lost count. Not a single person saw me as a scary individual. In fact, not a single person even noticed I had a gun. (Or if they did, they did not point it out to me or any of the half dozen cops milling around outside--and if they did, the cops never came and talked to me.) I take all of that to mean--not a single person knew and/or cared that a man (99% of them didn't know--I have taught a few of those kids) had a gun (that they didn't know about) standing in their midst.
I didn't touch the gun--not even to adjust it on my belt.
So I have some questions:
1. How was I a danger to myself or others? Be specific. Don't generalize. Give me an actionable example of me and others being in danger.
"You shoot your dick off because you lose focus and accidentally shoot yourself. You are fallible."
2. I wasn't the only person armed last night. As I pointed out, there were about 12 police officers split up between traffic duty and security. Were their guns introducing danger or just mine? "All of you were introducing danger. You were surrounded by fallible human beings."
3. If just mine, what's the difference between a cop bringing a gun and a background cleared citizen bringing a gun? In Texas, LTC holders are statistically less likely to commit a crime than a police officer--by a lot. "Probably but you were in front of me I knew nothing of your background you would be a perceived danger to me. I have know way knowing of if are a licensed, trained or sane. I don't have ESP."
4. If we're both introducing danger into the situation, why doesn't your gun control argument call for the police to turn in their weapons as well? There were 6 of them (possibly more as I did not go inside) and 1 of me. The danger exponent from them had to be off the charts right? When I landed in Minneapolis, MN on Thursday morning, there were police officers walking the concourse with AR-15's slung over their shoulder, down their chest, pointed at the floor and their fingers next to the trigger. Was I really in mortal danger--or was I actually safer because I did not take my gun on this trip because I went with a bunch of anti-gun people and left my gun at home and was now adequately protected by the police in case something happened? ""'Mortal danger' is your word not mine. Again I have a certain level of faith in armed officers because of their uniforms and training. I have no reason to have faith in you if you are standing in front of me with a gun on your belt. Why should I trust a stranger?"
5. And why can't the government lead by example and turn in their weapons first? "Because it is their job to protect us not yours. You can protect your family but I have no need of your gun around me. I will take my chances with the police."