Baylor Chapel and False Teaching

3,707 Views | 150 Replies | Last: 8 min ago by JXL
Forest Bueller_bf
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3rd String Kicker said:

Below is a post from a Baylor employee who is also the wife of a longtime local southern Baptist pastor. I trust what she says about her friend. Some of you need to stop the rush to judgement that is all-too-regular in our society.


A friend of mine, Kaitlin Curtice, spoke this week at Baylor's chapel service. I have been so excited about her coming to this campus, I looked forward to seeing her face so I could just talk to another Native Christian who understands what I go through we aren't rare, I just don't have any here in Waco. My time with her was treasured and I look forward to seeing her again.

I watched her live and she did such a great job speaking. I am grateful to the chapel staff at Baylor for giving a platform to a female Native Christian. I don't think you know how uncommon that is. She shared excerpts from her book that is coming out in May (her story) and she prayed poetic prayers from her first book, Glory Happening. She spoke on some of the same Native concerns you will find on my feed or I vocalize if asked. As I have experienced in my DM's and conversations, Nativeness being talked about is not always appreciated. In fact many times my words are dismissed or defenses are raised so quickly it reveals they weren't listening to me, just hearing me. The terms and words Native Americans use are not always preferred by the majority. I/we know this, yet I/we still keep sharing.

Kaitlin's personal story and prayers were promoted to social media and the local media as "weird, to me" "non-Christian" and "pagan."

The space many Native Christians navigate is often misunderstood and too often brings out the worst of fragility or racism, by other Christians. I have experienced it and I am watching it happen this week to Kaitlin, on a large scale. I saw the ignorance of a student go so far as to lie about a prayer from a Christian and called a sister in Christ a pagan. I watched a news outlet take this student and his political group's word as fact and air a story about how a prayer to "Mother Mystery" was prayed at Baylor. I watched a local pastor, previous regent, back that story up with he "knows Baylor will do the right thing" (????). Clearly these people didn't bother to watch/rewatch the service, nor did the media.

I am emotionally watching online as a sister in Christ and Native American is called the worst of things, and the atrocities our people have experienced have become memes and hate filled messages toward her. So hateful her husband is having to filter her social media platforms. TOWARD A SISTER IN CHRIST. Christians.we are called to be better than this.

The student that has made this outcry misheard the very first line and while he focused on 'this must be pagan,' he missed a beautiful prayer to God. The opening line in the "controversial" prayer that Kaitlin read is "Oh God of Mystery".in chapel she said "Oh Mystery" -- not Mother Mystery. << she may have assumed in a Christian chapel service she could say Oh Mystery (God would be assumed). She may have assumed since she it had been already stated she was a Christian that it would be assumed she's speaking to God, not to a god. The words below that have been described as pagan by so many online, have become a re-focus for me to this week.

Oh God of mystery,
If we have tried to place you in a box,
break it.
No mold can hold you.
We search the surface of the earth
to understand you,
because we are your imprint.
But we cannot understand.
Only the kind glimpses
you give us can suffice.
And indeed they are everything we need.
Teach us to look out to your bigness.
to fall freely into your Holy Abyss,
into your depths,
where we see more glimpses of Kingdom things.
It's safe and good there,
and it is where we long to be.
Bring us to you,
the One who is
not here or there,
not this or that.
We do not even understand
how we long for you,
how we burn in our bones
for your presence.
It is simply our need.
Pull us closer still.
Amen.


As almost always, I usually wait back to say anything because the full truth isn't usually out right away. If this is indeed her prayer, I don't see anything wrong with it, I've been in several different denominations, and this isn't much different from some of the more creative prayers I've heard.

I hope she believes in the Christ, someone on here, a more reasonable poster, said they thought she may not believe in His deity. Hopefully that isn't the case, but this prayer is fine.
JXL
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Didn't Paul say something about praying to The Mystery?

For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

(Acts 17:23ff)
quash
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

If it were called "mosque" I would would be shocked to hear Protestant theology.

It is called "chapel" I'm shocked to hear something outside of Protestant theology.

Is I stated earlier, if speakers are brought in from other faiths for the purpose of educating, then have that as part of the intro.

ie... Today, we are bringing in Elijah Nelson to speak to you about the LDS church.

Learning about other faiths can be helpful in how we work together as well as how we minister to others.

Baylor should not bring in other faiths cloaked as Christianity when that is not what it is.
I had a Mormon Spanish prof. The Dean of Music was a Jew.
LIB,MR BEARS
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quash said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

If it were called "mosque" I would would be shocked to hear Protestant theology.

It is called "chapel" I'm shocked to hear something outside of Protestant theology.

Is I stated earlier, if speakers are brought in from other faiths for the purpose of educating, then have that as part of the intro.

ie... Today, we are bringing in Elijah Nelson to speak to you about the LDS church.

Learning about other faiths can be helpful in how we work together as well as how we minister to others.

Baylor should not bring in other faiths cloaked as Christianity when that is not what it is.
I had a Mormon Spanish prof. The Dean of Music was a Jew.
I had an English prof that was an Aggie. None of those things have anything to do with chapel
sombear
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Ok, I watched the lecture. Sincere observations, not trying to be cruel or judgmental.
* One of the more unoriginal college lectures you'll see.
* White men, oil, America, capitalism, "toxic patriarchy (undefined)," all bad . . . very bad . . . everything that is wrong with the world.
* All was right in the world before we murdered Native Americans and shipped in slaves. (She ignores of course that Native Americans raped, murdered, and enslaved each other in unimaginable cruelty - children (born and unborn) often were fair game. Same goes for Africans, they enslaved each other and sold each other into slavery around the world. Slavery existed for centuries before. Always evil (to say the least) but we did not start it. The world has been a brutal place, with plenty of evil everywhere.)
* You could hear that same lecture hundreds of times each day in college classrooms everywhere.
* I don't think she once mentioned Jesus, Salvation, Christianity, or the Bible - could have missed one, but certainly none of it (or anything close) was part of her theme.
* On video, I did not see an incident. She remained composed throughout.
* If BU knew the material and approved it, I truly wonder why. How does it further the aim of Chapel? For that matter, what was original or redeeming about it any way? Students can turn on MSNBC any time and hear the same thing, and probably better articulated on MSNBC.
* I am Cherokee. Georgia Blue Ridge Mountain Cherokee.
BaylorFTW
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Aliceinbubbleland said:

@BaylorFTW

Are these folks doomed in your opinion?


The bible says we all have sinned and are in need of a Savior. It also says if you draw near to God, he will draw near to you. Even if they never heard of Jesus, they would still have an awareness of God through their conscience and being a part of God's Creation. It is true there are some people in Heaven who never heard of the name Jesus such as those living before Jesus was born. I believe God judges people based on what they know. And I don't know what these folks knew or whether they sought out God.

However, if someone were to tell me that I belong to another faith and am a good person, why do I need Jesus? Or the other alternative is where they might say you think that everyone who doesn't think like you is going to Hell.

I would ask them 2 questions that Greg Koukl recommends:
1. Do you think that people who have done wrong should be punished?
2. Have you ever done anything wrong?

Most people including myself would say yes to both questions. And that would be real bad news for us because we would have to acknowledge that we earned Hell for our transgression against God.

But the good news is Jesus knew we could not pay such a debt so instead he acts as a pardon for our transgressions against God. This gesture by Jesus is what allows us to go to Heaven as he effectively pays our fine. This is why Jesus is the only way b/c he is the only one who solved the problem. God becomes a man so he can take the guilt upon himself so that we can be forgiven.

Notice it would not matter how great a person I was or all the good deeds I had done. Just as that would not work in our court system, my good deeds would not allow me to be deemed not guilty for say a murder charge or some other crime I committed. I would still be responsible for the wrong that I chose to do.

So based on this knowledge I would encourage all people to follow Jesus because I want them to go to Heaven.
ShooterTX
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sombear said:

Ok, I watched the lecture. Sincere observations, not trying to be cruel or judgmental.
* One of the more unoriginal college lectures you'll see.
* White men, oil, America, capitalism, "toxic patriarchy (undefined)," all bad . . . very bad . . . everything that is wrong with the world.
* All was right in the world before we murdered Native Americans and shipped in slaves. (She ignores of course that Native Americans raped, murdered, and enslaved each other in unimaginable cruelty - children (born and unborn) often were fair game. Same goes for Africans, they enslaved each other and sold each other into slavery around the world. Slavery existed for centuries before. Always evil (to say the least) but we did not start it. The world has been a brutal place, with plenty of evil everywhere.)
* You could hear that same lecture hundreds of times each day in college classrooms everywhere.
* I don't think she once mentioned Jesus, Salvation, Christianity, or the Bible - could have missed one, but certainly none of it (or anything close) was part of her theme.
* On video, I did not see an incident. She remained composed throughout.
* If BU knew the material and approved it, I truly wonder why. How does it further the aim of Chapel? For that matter, what was original or redeeming about it any way? Students can turn on MSNBC any time and hear the same thing, and probably better articulated on MSNBC.
* I am Cherokee. Georgia Blue Ridge Mountain Cherokee.

Pretty good summation, but you forgot colonization... she mentioned it alot and how it is super-duper evil.

And don't forget that slavery still exists today, but not in America.

Yeah... she never mentioned Jesus, the Bible or pretty much anything that could be considered theology at all. She did mention a Native American creation story, and how we can learn important lessons from it...so yeah... totally appropriate for a Baptist Chapel service.

Just to review: She prayed to "Mystery" twice, talked alot about connecting & learning from nature, never once mentioned Jesus or a Savior or Messiah or any other name for him, never referenced the Bible,... yet we are to agree that she is a Christian and a theologian of some kind.
sombear
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ShooterTX said:

sombear said:

Ok, I watched the lecture. Sincere observations, not trying to be cruel or judgmental.
* One of the more unoriginal college lectures you'll see.
* White men, oil, America, capitalism, "toxic patriarchy (undefined)," all bad . . . very bad . . . everything that is wrong with the world.
* All was right in the world before we murdered Native Americans and shipped in slaves. (She ignores of course that Native Americans raped, murdered, and enslaved each other in unimaginable cruelty - children (born and unborn) often were fair game. Same goes for Africans, they enslaved each other and sold each other into slavery around the world. Slavery existed for centuries before. Always evil (to say the least) but we did not start it. The world has been a brutal place, with plenty of evil everywhere.)
* You could hear that same lecture hundreds of times each day in college classrooms everywhere.
* I don't think she once mentioned Jesus, Salvation, Christianity, or the Bible - could have missed one, but certainly none of it (or anything close) was part of her theme.
* On video, I did not see an incident. She remained composed throughout.
* If BU knew the material and approved it, I truly wonder why. How does it further the aim of Chapel? For that matter, what was original or redeeming about it any way? Students can turn on MSNBC any time and hear the same thing, and probably better articulated on MSNBC.
* I am Cherokee. Georgia Blue Ridge Mountain Cherokee.

Pretty good summation, but you forgot colonization... she mentioned it alot and how it is super-duper evil.

And don't forget that slavery still exists today, but not in America.

Yeah... she never mentioned Jesus, the Bible or pretty much anything that could be considered theology at all. She did mention a Native American creation story, and how we can learn important lessons from it...so yeah... totally appropriate for a Baptist Chapel service.

Just to review: She prayed to "Mystery" twice, talked alot about connecting & learning from nature, never once mentioned Jesus or a Savior or Messiah or any other name for him, never referenced the Bible,... yet we are to agree that she is a Christian and a theologian of some kind.


Good points. As for the C word, I omitted it because I could not figure what she meant by it separate and sort from all the things she said were the problem - white men, capitalism, etc.
BaylorFTW
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Well, it looks like Kaitlin is enjoying the controversy and her notoriety. She changed her Twitter title to Kaitlin *probably pagan* Curtice.

She also made this tweet today:

"Mother Nature, she's the daughter of God and the source of all protection."
-- @BuffySteMarie



But even more interesting, is there appears to be some damage control going on by Baylor. Kaitlin is now claiming that Baylor Chapel threw her under the bus. She claims they knew what she was going to talk about and she did not veer off topic. This veer off topic language is what Baylor used in a letter they sent out to parents regarding the incident.



sombear
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BaylorFTW said:

Well, it looks like Kaitlin is enjoying the controversy and her notoriety. She changed her Twitter title to Kaitlin *probably pagan* Curtice.

She also made this tweet today:

"Mother Nature, she's the daughter of God and the source of all protection."
-- @BuffySteMarie



But even more interesting, is there appears to be some damage control going on by Baylor. Kaitlin is now claiming that Baylor Chapel threw her under the bus. She claims they knew what she was going to talk about and she did not veer off topic. This veer off topic language is what Baylor used in a letter they sent out to parents regarding the incident.






Classy ... she's now disparaging the university that invited (and paid) her to speak, so that she can sell more books. I don't think even Mother Nature would approve .... Hopefully moving forward, BU will do a better job screening potential speakers.
JXL
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BaylorFTW said:

Well, it looks like Kaitlin is enjoying the controversy and her notoriety. She changed her Twitter title to Kaitlin *probably pagan* Curtice.

She also made this tweet today:

"Mother Nature, she's the daughter of God and the source of all protection."
-- @BuffySteMarie








This should put an end to any lingering idea that she is in some sense a Christian.
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