Johnny Bear said:
Sweden took more proportionate actions such as utilizing social distancing, but they didn't "lockdown" and nuke their economy. So far I'm not hearing anything about people dropping dead in the streets from Covid in Sweden as if the Bubonic Plague has set in.
Somehow I think they've been the smart ones in this particular case.
Per capita cases in Sweden are not far from Norway's or Denmark's. Sweden even has more density than Norway, but far less than Denmark. The Swedish epidemiologist consultant said in his now famous interview that the thing Sweden was too slow with was locking down their nursing homes. Their nursing homes are rather large compared to their neighbors as well. That could (not sure) explain the difference in the deaths per million.Booray said:Johnny Bear said:
Sweden took more proportionate actions such as utilizing social distancing, but they didn't "lockdown" and nuke their economy. So far I'm not hearing anything about people dropping dead in the streets from Covid in Sweden as if the Bubonic Plague has set in.
Somehow I think they've been the smart ones in this particular case.
Sweden's Covid numbers are multiples of the other Scandinavian countries. That only proves that restrictions save lives, not that the cost of savings those lives was worth it. But I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that the "Swedes got it right."
I think I covered a possible cause of higher deaths in Sweden with the nursing homes. Looking at what happened here in the US and in Italy, it seems a very likely candidate. We just don't know for sure.Booray said:
Sweden's serious cases (even per capita) and deaths are significantly more than its Scandinavian neighbors. Its per capita total cases are also higher but not at near the ratio. You wonder about how the "non-serious" cases are being counted.
Anything?DAC said:
Anything would be better than crashing our economy like we have done
We'll never know.Oldbear83 said:
Were the lock downs necessary?
Did they overwhelm their hospitals?Booray said:Johnny Bear said:
Sweden took more proportionate actions such as utilizing social distancing, but they didn't "lockdown" and nuke their economy. So far I'm not hearing anything about people dropping dead in the streets from Covid in Sweden as if the Bubonic Plague has set in.
Somehow I think they've been the smart ones in this particular case.
Sweden's Covid numbers are multiples of the other Scandinavian countries. That only proves that restrictions save lives, not that the cost of savings those lives was worth it. But I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that the "Swedes got it right."
We already do.Midnight Rider said:We'll never know.Oldbear83 said:
Were the lock downs necessary?
DAC said:
Anything would be better than crashing our economy like we have done
The StudyQuote:
Start at the 2:10 mark - the study suggests that the fatality rate is in the ballpark of seasonal influenza. He was invlolved in the Santa Clara County study. Hell it's only 3 minutes watch the whole clip.
Quote:
Each square represents an individual: grey are uninfected but susceptible to infection; yellow are infected in the latent period and not yet infectious; red are infected and infectious; black are either deceased or recovered; and light blue are isolated by community screening policies. Colored blocks represented communities: all communities start as grey; blue have past the monitoring period and are confirmed unexposed; yellow have no active infections but are still being monitored; and red have active and infectious cases. After the outbreak is recognized, community screening is put in place. At first there are a lot of red communities, but, as containment goes into effect, red zones become surrounded by yellow and begin to contract until every community is blue, or cleared.
Quote:
Scientists in Tacoma believe they've found a way to track COVID-19, and the answer lies in the sewer system.
Earlier this month, researchers at biotech nonprofit RAIN Incubator were given permission to test samples of raw sludge at Tacoma's Central Wastewater Treatment Plant for the virus.
So far, they've tested about 40 samples at their lab in downtown Tacoma, and sure enough COVID-19 was there.
"We found it," said David Hirschberg, founder of RAIN Incubator. "So Tacoma tests positive for it. It doesn't mean it's infectious it's likely not. But it means it's in our system."
I'd like to try a different path. We might come out aheadPartyBear said:DAC said:
Anything would be better than crashing our economy like we have done
The economy was crashing before there was a single shelter in place order. Not being prepared for the virus is what crashed the economy. The shelter in place orders are better longer term for the economy than having the virus come back quickly and shut it down for a longer term than otherwise.
Eastern Europe's populations largely dictate their success. When Abilene or Waco would be major population centers in your country, you're not likely to be hit as hard as those with significantly higher population densities, like the countries found in Western Europe. That makes Germany the true shining star in this. Their success is striking all things considered.EatMoreSalmon said:I think I covered a possible cause of higher deaths in Sweden with the nursing homes. Looking at what happened here in the US and in Italy, it seems a very likely candidate. We just don't know for sure.Booray said:
Sweden's serious cases (even per capita) and deaths are significantly more than its Scandinavian neighbors. Its per capita total cases are also higher but not at near the ratio. You wonder about how the "non-serious" cases are being counted.
In any rate, all those numbers are quite low for each country compared to their European neighbors. Germany and Eastern Europe are also doing well. It is Western Europe and the US that have the high numbers.
bear2be2 said:Eastern Europe's populations largely dictate their success. When Abilene or Waco would be major population centers in your country, you're not likely to be hit as hard as those with significantly higher population densities, like the countries found in Western Europe. That makes Germany the true shining star in this. Their success is striking all things considered.EatMoreSalmon said:I think I covered a possible cause of higher deaths in Sweden with the nursing homes. Looking at what happened here in the US and in Italy, it seems a very likely candidate. We just don't know for sure.Booray said:
Sweden's serious cases (even per capita) and deaths are significantly more than its Scandinavian neighbors. Its per capita total cases are also higher but not at near the ratio. You wonder about how the "non-serious" cases are being counted.
In any rate, all those numbers are quite low for each country compared to their European neighbors. Germany and Eastern Europe are also doing well. It is Western Europe and the US that have the high numbers.
As for Sweden in particular, I think it's important to acknowledge that they can take gambles that countries with larger populations can't for the reasons listed above. They lost 185 people today -- their most since this pandemic hit. That doesn't sound like much, but as a proportion of their population, that equates to almost 6,000 people in the US. If we were to lose that many in one day, it would be our largest single-day COVID death total by more than 3,000.
Tell that to your compadres who keep using Sweden as an example of what the United States should be doing.Bearitto said:bear2be2 said:Eastern Europe's populations largely dictate their success. When Abilene or Waco would be major population centers in your country, you're not likely to be hit as hard as those with significantly higher population densities, like the countries found in Western Europe. That makes Germany the true shining star in this. Their success is striking all things considered.EatMoreSalmon said:I think I covered a possible cause of higher deaths in Sweden with the nursing homes. Looking at what happened here in the US and in Italy, it seems a very likely candidate. We just don't know for sure.Booray said:
Sweden's serious cases (even per capita) and deaths are significantly more than its Scandinavian neighbors. Its per capita total cases are also higher but not at near the ratio. You wonder about how the "non-serious" cases are being counted.
In any rate, all those numbers are quite low for each country compared to their European neighbors. Germany and Eastern Europe are also doing well. It is Western Europe and the US that have the high numbers.
As for Sweden in particular, I think it's important to acknowledge that they can take gambles that countries with larger populations can't for the reasons listed above. They lost 185 people today -- their most since this pandemic hit. That doesn't sound like much, but as a proportion of their population, that equates to almost 6,000 people in the US. If we were to lose that many in one day, it would be our largest single-day COVID death total by more than 3,000.
This statement is why we need better education in basic logic in the US. The US is not comparable to a single European country. The US is comparable to Europe as a whole. We have 50 states, multiple regions, remarkable geographic, cultural and economic diversity and extraordinarily varied population densities. To compare the US, as a country to any one European country is simply stupid. But it's been the bread and butter of the fear mongers since this all began.
bear2be2 said:Tell that to your compadres who keep using Sweden as an example of what the United States should be doing.Bearitto said:bear2be2 said:Eastern Europe's populations largely dictate their success. When Abilene or Waco would be major population centers in your country, you're not likely to be hit as hard as those with significantly higher population densities, like the countries found in Western Europe. That makes Germany the true shining star in this. Their success is striking all things considered.EatMoreSalmon said:I think I covered a possible cause of higher deaths in Sweden with the nursing homes. Looking at what happened here in the US and in Italy, it seems a very likely candidate. We just don't know for sure.Booray said:
Sweden's serious cases (even per capita) and deaths are significantly more than its Scandinavian neighbors. Its per capita total cases are also higher but not at near the ratio. You wonder about how the "non-serious" cases are being counted.
In any rate, all those numbers are quite low for each country compared to their European neighbors. Germany and Eastern Europe are also doing well. It is Western Europe and the US that have the high numbers.
As for Sweden in particular, I think it's important to acknowledge that they can take gambles that countries with larger populations can't for the reasons listed above. They lost 185 people today -- their most since this pandemic hit. That doesn't sound like much, but as a proportion of their population, that equates to almost 6,000 people in the US. If we were to lose that many in one day, it would be our largest single-day COVID death total by more than 3,000.
This statement is why we need better education in basic logic in the US. The US is not comparable to a single European country. The US is comparable to Europe as a whole. We have 50 states, multiple regions, remarkable geographic, cultural and economic diversity and extraordinarily varied population densities. To compare the US, as a country to any one European country is simply stupid. But it's been the bread and butter of the fear mongers since this all began.
And Europe has a population more than twice that of the United States with a higher population density by almost 35 percent. So, no, the US is not comparable to Europe as a whole.
The point, which you clearly missed, was that it is precisely the differences in population and population density that allow a country like Sweden to take the risk it has without fear of absolute disaster. The proportional comparison was merely an illustration to show those who hold Sweden up as a success story what that country is actually losing in relation to its population and why such a gamble would carry significantly higher risk for a country with the United States' population.Bearitto said:bear2be2 said:Tell that to your compadres who keep using Sweden as an example of what the United States should be doing.Bearitto said:bear2be2 said:Eastern Europe's populations largely dictate their success. When Abilene or Waco would be major population centers in your country, you're not likely to be hit as hard as those with significantly higher population densities, like the countries found in Western Europe. That makes Germany the true shining star in this. Their success is striking all things considered.EatMoreSalmon said:I think I covered a possible cause of higher deaths in Sweden with the nursing homes. Looking at what happened here in the US and in Italy, it seems a very likely candidate. We just don't know for sure.Booray said:
Sweden's serious cases (even per capita) and deaths are significantly more than its Scandinavian neighbors. Its per capita total cases are also higher but not at near the ratio. You wonder about how the "non-serious" cases are being counted.
In any rate, all those numbers are quite low for each country compared to their European neighbors. Germany and Eastern Europe are also doing well. It is Western Europe and the US that have the high numbers.
As for Sweden in particular, I think it's important to acknowledge that they can take gambles that countries with larger populations can't for the reasons listed above. They lost 185 people today -- their most since this pandemic hit. That doesn't sound like much, but as a proportion of their population, that equates to almost 6,000 people in the US. If we were to lose that many in one day, it would be our largest single-day COVID death total by more than 3,000.
This statement is why we need better education in basic logic in the US. The US is not comparable to a single European country. The US is comparable to Europe as a whole. We have 50 states, multiple regions, remarkable geographic, cultural and economic diversity and extraordinarily varied population densities. To compare the US, as a country to any one European country is simply stupid. But it's been the bread and butter of the fear mongers since this all began.
And Europe has a population more than twice that of the United States with a higher population density by almost 35 percent. So, no, the US is not comparable to Europe as a whole.
Using Sweden as a sample (n) to determine what impacts of house arrest v no house arrest is valid. Trying to stupidly apply direct proportionality to single day mortality rates is all together different. It's time for you to sit down.
Why? Why not compare them to Italy, Spain, France and the UK? Sweden may or may not have a good plan, but I have yet to see a valid reason to limit their success or failure comparison to contiguous countries only.bear2be2 said:The point, which you clearly missed, was that it is precisely the differences in population and population density that allow a country like Sweden to take the risk it has without fear of absolute disaster. The proportional comparison was merely an illustration to show those who hold Sweden up as a success story what that country is actually losing in relation to its population and why such a gamble would carry significantly higher risk for a country with the United States' population.Bearitto said:bear2be2 said:Tell that to your compadres who keep using Sweden as an example of what the United States should be doing.Bearitto said:bear2be2 said:Eastern Europe's populations largely dictate their success. When Abilene or Waco would be major population centers in your country, you're not likely to be hit as hard as those with significantly higher population densities, like the countries found in Western Europe. That makes Germany the true shining star in this. Their success is striking all things considered.EatMoreSalmon said:I think I covered a possible cause of higher deaths in Sweden with the nursing homes. Looking at what happened here in the US and in Italy, it seems a very likely candidate. We just don't know for sure.Booray said:
Sweden's serious cases (even per capita) and deaths are significantly more than its Scandinavian neighbors. Its per capita total cases are also higher but not at near the ratio. You wonder about how the "non-serious" cases are being counted.
In any rate, all those numbers are quite low for each country compared to their European neighbors. Germany and Eastern Europe are also doing well. It is Western Europe and the US that have the high numbers.
As for Sweden in particular, I think it's important to acknowledge that they can take gambles that countries with larger populations can't for the reasons listed above. They lost 185 people today -- their most since this pandemic hit. That doesn't sound like much, but as a proportion of their population, that equates to almost 6,000 people in the US. If we were to lose that many in one day, it would be our largest single-day COVID death total by more than 3,000.
This statement is why we need better education in basic logic in the US. The US is not comparable to a single European country. The US is comparable to Europe as a whole. We have 50 states, multiple regions, remarkable geographic, cultural and economic diversity and extraordinarily varied population densities. To compare the US, as a country to any one European country is simply stupid. But it's been the bread and butter of the fear mongers since this all began.
And Europe has a population more than twice that of the United States with a higher population density by almost 35 percent. So, no, the US is not comparable to Europe as a whole.
Using Sweden as a sample (n) to determine what impacts of house arrest v no house arrest is valid. Trying to stupidly apply direct proportionality to single day mortality rates is all together different. It's time for you to sit down.
If Sweden's plan really blows up, they lose maybe 10,000 people. That same proportion would equal close to 330,000 in the United States. As it stands currently, Sweden's death toll is more than 20 percent higher than the United States' when you equalize the two populations. And that's with just three cities that would rank among the United States' top 150 in population.
Again, that's just an illustration to put Sweden's response so far into a package that's more easily understood/digested by Americans.
The best comparisons for actually judging Sweden's response are against that country's Scandinavian neighbors. And Sweden's death toll towers over those on both an aggregate and per million basis.
Assuming the math coming out of, say, China and Russia, is honest and complete.Canada2017 said:
45,343 C-19 deaths in the United States
Most deaths of any country in the world
Jacques Strap said:Why? Why not compare them to Italy, Spain, France and the UK? Sweden may or may not have a good plan, but I have yet to see a valid reason to limit their success or failure comparison to contiguous countries only.bear2be2 said:The point, which you clearly missed, was that it is precisely the differences in population and population density that allow a country like Sweden to take the risk it has without fear of absolute disaster. The proportional comparison was merely an illustration to show those who hold Sweden up as a success story what that country is actually losing in relation to its population and why such a gamble would carry significantly higher risk for a country with the United States' population.Bearitto said:bear2be2 said:Tell that to your compadres who keep using Sweden as an example of what the United States should be doing.Bearitto said:bear2be2 said:Eastern Europe's populations largely dictate their success. When Abilene or Waco would be major population centers in your country, you're not likely to be hit as hard as those with significantly higher population densities, like the countries found in Western Europe. That makes Germany the true shining star in this. Their success is striking all things considered.EatMoreSalmon said:I think I covered a possible cause of higher deaths in Sweden with the nursing homes. Looking at what happened here in the US and in Italy, it seems a very likely candidate. We just don't know for sure.Booray said:
Sweden's serious cases (even per capita) and deaths are significantly more than its Scandinavian neighbors. Its per capita total cases are also higher but not at near the ratio. You wonder about how the "non-serious" cases are being counted.
In any rate, all those numbers are quite low for each country compared to their European neighbors. Germany and Eastern Europe are also doing well. It is Western Europe and the US that have the high numbers.
As for Sweden in particular, I think it's important to acknowledge that they can take gambles that countries with larger populations can't for the reasons listed above. They lost 185 people today -- their most since this pandemic hit. That doesn't sound like much, but as a proportion of their population, that equates to almost 6,000 people in the US. If we were to lose that many in one day, it would be our largest single-day COVID death total by more than 3,000.
This statement is why we need better education in basic logic in the US. The US is not comparable to a single European country. The US is comparable to Europe as a whole. We have 50 states, multiple regions, remarkable geographic, cultural and economic diversity and extraordinarily varied population densities. To compare the US, as a country to any one European country is simply stupid. But it's been the bread and butter of the fear mongers since this all began.
And Europe has a population more than twice that of the United States with a higher population density by almost 35 percent. So, no, the US is not comparable to Europe as a whole.
Using Sweden as a sample (n) to determine what impacts of house arrest v no house arrest is valid. Trying to stupidly apply direct proportionality to single day mortality rates is all together different. It's time for you to sit down.
If Sweden's plan really blows up, they lose maybe 10,000 people. That same proportion would equal close to 330,000 in the United States. As it stands currently, Sweden's death toll is more than 20 percent higher than the United States' when you equalize the two populations. And that's with just three cities that would rank among the United States' top 150 in population.
Again, that's just an illustration to put Sweden's response so far into a package that's more easily understood/digested by Americans.
The best comparisons for actually judging Sweden's response are against that country's Scandinavian neighbors. And Sweden's death toll towers over those on both an aggregate and per million basis.
They are the closest thing we have to a control group, so I am watching them closely and don't understand why everyone is so eager to label them a failure when it isn't even halftime yet in the game.
He also fails to mention that the USA has, what the third largest population in the world? The death rate wouldn't even be in the top 10.Oldbear83 said:Assuming the math coming out of, say, China and Russia, is honest and complete.Canada2017 said:
45,343 C-19 deaths in the United States
Most deaths of any country in the world
Maybe not everything just yet. Yes, we need to get business going, but with prudent actions and listening to all stakeholders.HashTag said:He also fails to mention that the USA has, what the third largest population in the world? The death rate wouldn't even be in the top 10.Oldbear83 said:Assuming the math coming out of, say, China and Russia, is honest and complete.Canada2017 said:
45,343 C-19 deaths in the United States
Most deaths of any country in the world
Time to stop living in fear and open everything back up.
Our economy was "crashing" before all of this Covid insanity?? In what world is an economy with historically low unemployment across all demographics including job growth regularly exceeding expectations along with a stock market scaring 30,000 (just to name a few things among consistently great economic news) considered to be "crashing"?? If that's a "crashing" economy then I hope and pray we can get back to "crashing" like that ASAP.PartyBear said:DAC said:
Anything would be better than crashing our economy like we have done
The economy was crashing before there was a single shelter in place order. Not being prepared for the virus is what crashed the economy. The shelter in place orders are better longer term for the economy than having the virus come back quickly and shut it down for a longer term than otherwise.
