Looks Like It Is Time To Re-Write Baylor's History & Apologize

13,516 Views | 210 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Redbrickbear
quash
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Redbrickbear said:

quash said:

"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association."
DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union."
"Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live here with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life." -Abraham Lincoln

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose or desire to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform is most favorable to that separation. Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization [outside the country]." --Abraham Lincoln

"Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: we are agreed for once---a thousand times agreed." - Abraham Lincoln

[In his personal memoirs (1891), Gen. Sherman wrote that he met with Lincoln after the March to the Sea. The president was eager to hear stories about how thousands of Southern civilians mostly women, children, the elderly and the infirm had been plundered, (sometimes raped or murdered), and rendered homeless. Crimes committed by troops against the ex-slave population were also numerous. According to Sherman, Lincoln laughed uproariously at the stories. One of Sherman's biographers (Lee Kennett, Sherman: A Soldier's Life, Harper, 2002), who otherwise writes very favorably about the general, concludes that if the Confederates had won the war then they would have been "justified in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against non-combatants."]










Lincoln changed his mind. Before he did he left a bunch of horrendous quotes behind. Good job finding them.
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
LIB,MR BEARS
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quash said:

"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association."
DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union."
ouch! That hurts worse than saying "hood".
Wrecks Quan Dough
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quash said:

Redbrickbear said:

quash said:

"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association."
DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union."
"Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live here with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life." -Abraham Lincoln

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose or desire to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform is most favorable to that separation. Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization [outside the country]." --Abraham Lincoln

"Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: we are agreed for once---a thousand times agreed." - Abraham Lincoln

[In his personal memoirs (1891), Gen. Sherman wrote that he met with Lincoln after the March to the Sea. The president was eager to hear stories about how thousands of Southern civilians mostly women, children, the elderly and the infirm had been plundered, (sometimes raped or murdered), and rendered homeless. Crimes committed by troops against the ex-slave population were also numerous. According to Sherman, Lincoln laughed uproariously at the stories. One of Sherman's biographers (Lee Kennett, Sherman: A Soldier's Life, Harper, 2002), who otherwise writes very favorably about the general, concludes that if the Confederates had won the war then they would have been "justified in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against non-combatants."]










Lincoln changed his mind. Before he did he left a bunch of horrendous quotes behind. Good job finding them.
We all do good and bad. Most folks have a lot of good to talk about. Most folks prefer to focus on the good that is left behind by most people. Except for the cancel scolds.
fadskier
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Redbrickbear said:

quash said:

"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association."
DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union."
"Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live here with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life." -Abraham Lincoln

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose or desire to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races." -Abraham Lincoln

"I tell him [Douglass] very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship." - Abraham Lincoln

"I agree... he [african americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, not in moral or intellectual endowment." - Abraham Lincoln

"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform is most favorable to that separation. Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization [outside the country]." --Abraham Lincoln

"Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: we are agreed for once---a thousand times agreed." - Abraham Lincoln

[In his personal memoirs (1891), Gen. Sherman wrote that he met with Lincoln after the March to the Sea. The president was eager to hear stories about how thousands of Southern civilians mostly women, children, the elderly and the infirm had been plundered, (sometimes raped or murdered), and rendered homeless. Crimes committed by troops against the ex-slave population were also numerous. According to Sherman, Lincoln laughed uproariously at the stories. One of Sherman's biographers (Lee Kennett, Sherman: A Soldier's Life, Harper, 2002), who otherwise writes very favorably about the general, concludes that if the Confederates had won the war then they would have been "justified in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against non-combatants."]










Shows that Lincoln was human. You're making my point. Honor him for the great he did despite his faults...
Redbrickbear
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fadskier said:

Redbrickbear said:

quash said:

"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association."
DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union."
"Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live here with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life." -Abraham Lincoln

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose or desire to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races." -Abraham Lincoln

"I tell him [Douglass] very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship." - Abraham Lincoln

"I agree... he [african americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, not in moral or intellectual endowment." - Abraham Lincoln

"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform is most favorable to that separation. Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization [outside the country]." --Abraham Lincoln

"Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: we are agreed for once---a thousand times agreed." - Abraham Lincoln

[In his personal memoirs (1891), Gen. Sherman wrote that he met with Lincoln after the March to the Sea. The president was eager to hear stories about how thousands of Southern civilians mostly women, children, the elderly and the infirm had been plundered, (sometimes raped or murdered), and rendered homeless. Crimes committed by troops against the ex-slave population were also numerous. According to Sherman, Lincoln laughed uproariously at the stories. One of Sherman's biographers (Lee Kennett, Sherman: A Soldier's Life, Harper, 2002), who otherwise writes very favorably about the general, concludes that if the Confederates had won the war then they would have been "justified in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against non-combatants."]










Shows that Lincoln was human. You're making my point. Honor him for the great he did despite his faults...


What did he do that was great? Kill 600,000 people?
fadskier
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Redbrickbear said:

fadskier said:

Redbrickbear said:

quash said:

"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association."
DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union."
"Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live here with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life." -Abraham Lincoln

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose or desire to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races." -Abraham Lincoln

"I tell him [Douglass] very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship." - Abraham Lincoln

"I agree... he [african americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, not in moral or intellectual endowment." - Abraham Lincoln

"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform is most favorable to that separation. Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization [outside the country]." --Abraham Lincoln

"Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: we are agreed for once---a thousand times agreed." - Abraham Lincoln

[In his personal memoirs (1891), Gen. Sherman wrote that he met with Lincoln after the March to the Sea. The president was eager to hear stories about how thousands of Southern civilians mostly women, children, the elderly and the infirm had been plundered, (sometimes raped or murdered), and rendered homeless. Crimes committed by troops against the ex-slave population were also numerous. According to Sherman, Lincoln laughed uproariously at the stories. One of Sherman's biographers (Lee Kennett, Sherman: A Soldier's Life, Harper, 2002), who otherwise writes very favorably about the general, concludes that if the Confederates had won the war then they would have been "justified in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against non-combatants."]










Shows that Lincoln was human. You're making my point. Honor him for the great he did despite his faults...


What did he do that was great? Kill 600,000 people?
Provided leadership in a time of difficulty. He had a hand in keeping this country together.
Booray
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Redbrickbear said:

fadskier said:

Redbrickbear said:

quash said:

"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association."
DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union."
"Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live here with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life." -Abraham Lincoln

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose or desire to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races." -Abraham Lincoln

"I tell him [Douglass] very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship." - Abraham Lincoln

"I agree... he [african americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, not in moral or intellectual endowment." - Abraham Lincoln

"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform is most favorable to that separation. Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization [outside the country]." --Abraham Lincoln

"Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: we are agreed for once---a thousand times agreed." - Abraham Lincoln

[In his personal memoirs (1891), Gen. Sherman wrote that he met with Lincoln after the March to the Sea. The president was eager to hear stories about how thousands of Southern civilians mostly women, children, the elderly and the infirm had been plundered, (sometimes raped or murdered), and rendered homeless. Crimes committed by troops against the ex-slave population were also numerous. According to Sherman, Lincoln laughed uproariously at the stories. One of Sherman's biographers (Lee Kennett, Sherman: A Soldier's Life, Harper, 2002), who otherwise writes very favorably about the general, concludes that if the Confederates had won the war then they would have been "justified in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against non-combatants."]










Shows that Lincoln was human. You're making my point. Honor him for the great he did despite his faults...


What did he do that was great? Kill 600,000 people?


You live in the most prosperous, powerful and free country that has ever existed. But for Lincoln that would not be true.
ATL Bear
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Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

fadskier said:

Redbrickbear said:

quash said:

"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association."
DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union."
"Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live here with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life." -Abraham Lincoln

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose or desire to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races." -Abraham Lincoln

"I tell him [Douglass] very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship." - Abraham Lincoln

"I agree... he [african americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, not in moral or intellectual endowment." - Abraham Lincoln

"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform is most favorable to that separation. Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization [outside the country]." --Abraham Lincoln

"Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: we are agreed for once---a thousand times agreed." - Abraham Lincoln

[In his personal memoirs (1891), Gen. Sherman wrote that he met with Lincoln after the March to the Sea. The president was eager to hear stories about how thousands of Southern civilians mostly women, children, the elderly and the infirm had been plundered, (sometimes raped or murdered), and rendered homeless. Crimes committed by troops against the ex-slave population were also numerous. According to Sherman, Lincoln laughed uproariously at the stories. One of Sherman's biographers (Lee Kennett, Sherman: A Soldier's Life, Harper, 2002), who otherwise writes very favorably about the general, concludes that if the Confederates had won the war then they would have been "justified in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against non-combatants."]










Shows that Lincoln was human. You're making my point. Honor him for the great he did despite his faults...


What did he do that was great? Kill 600,000 people?


You live in the most prosperous, powerful and free country that has ever existed. But for Lincoln that would not be true.
The selective application of this truth seems ironic given the thread topic.
Booray
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ATL Bear said:

Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

fadskier said:

Redbrickbear said:

quash said:

"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association."
DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union."
"Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live here with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life." -Abraham Lincoln

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose or desire to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races." -Abraham Lincoln

"I tell him [Douglass] very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship." - Abraham Lincoln

"I agree... he [african americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, not in moral or intellectual endowment." - Abraham Lincoln

"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform is most favorable to that separation. Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization [outside the country]." --Abraham Lincoln

"Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: we are agreed for once---a thousand times agreed." - Abraham Lincoln

[In his personal memoirs (1891), Gen. Sherman wrote that he met with Lincoln after the March to the Sea. The president was eager to hear stories about how thousands of Southern civilians mostly women, children, the elderly and the infirm had been plundered, (sometimes raped or murdered), and rendered homeless. Crimes committed by troops against the ex-slave population were also numerous. According to Sherman, Lincoln laughed uproariously at the stories. One of Sherman's biographers (Lee Kennett, Sherman: A Soldier's Life, Harper, 2002), who otherwise writes very favorably about the general, concludes that if the Confederates had won the war then they would have been "justified in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against non-combatants."]










Shows that Lincoln was human. You're making my point. Honor him for the great he did despite his faults...


What did he do that was great? Kill 600,000 people?


You live in the most prosperous, powerful and free country that has ever existed. But for Lincoln that would not be true.
The selective application of this truth seems ironic given the thread topic.


How so? I answered a question: what did Lincoln do that was so great? If you want a list of his flaws I can answer that too.

I understand you to be saying that if we are going to be historically accurate about heroes, every mention of them must acknowledge their flaws. That is not what I am arguing. If I gave that impression, I miscommunicated.

I have no issue with those that point out Lincoln's negatives. I have a big problem with those who ignore his positives. I see that as the flip side of those who would deny Judge Baylor's negatives because he founded a great school.
fadskier
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It's very easy to dismiss the negatives in our heros and difficult to acknowledge their flaws.
Doc Holliday
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Booray said:

fadskier said:

Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

Booray said:

Thee University said:

Booray said:

Thee University said:

bubbadog said:


We put up historical markers on the site of where some early school or pioneer trading post once was but won't officially mark the site of the old slave market. Every county square in my state has a monument to its Confederate veterans or war dead -- and I have no problem with that -- but there's no public monument anywhere to the 20,000 Black men from the state who joined the Union Army and fought and died for their own freedom. If taking down Confederate statues today is cancelling, you might say that much of our history got pre-cancelled generations earlier.


A very large number of Confederate monuments around this great, free country were bought and paid for by the widows, kids and grandkids of Confederate Veterans. They raised the $$$$ by collecting pennies, nickels, dimes and other donations. They were proud of their ancestors and 95%+ did not own or have any slaves. They did not march hundreds and thousands of mile on foot and horseback to allow slave owners to keep their labor pool. They did not risk their lives voluntarily so that Boss Hog could wallow around on his plantation and they come home maimed to a mud hut or at best a log cabin.

Nothing prevented blacks, browns and yellows from erecting monuments and roadside historical markers of ancestors they were/are proud of or sites they deem historical.

Today I'm certain Black Lives Matter would part with $100 million or so so get those monuments erected. Don't you think? All it takes is a little work and sacrifice!!!
Those confederate monuments are largely at courthouses and on public land throughout the South, erected in the early 20th century. You are seriously suggesting that African-Americans could have just put up Fredrick Douglas, George Washington Carver and Harriet Tubman statues at the same time?
Damn right I am!

Did they even try? They could out up monuments anywhere in the hoods nationwide so it gets maximum exposure where black folks work, play and do business.

What were they doing? Waiting for someone else to do it for them?

Today there are thousands of black millionaires across this nation fully capable of erecting these monuments. The BLM group is flush with WHITE cash. What is holding them back? Are they waiting for white guilt to kick in and let whitey pay for it.
In the 1920's, when the Confederate statues went up, African Americans were busy trying not to get lynched by the KKK. Suggesting they could have just erected statues of black heroes in public spaces is beyond stupid. The franchise was largely denied to them until the 1960's and even once they got the vote, the idea that they could get approval for what you are suggesting is also beyond stupid.

Every time I think that the some of the conservative posters on Sic'em make valid points about too much reliance on the race card, I can count on you to demonstrate how much work needs to be done.
For the record these statues were built at the exact same time Union statues were.

Starting in the 1880s and continuing all the way until the civil war's centennial in 1960.

The big building spree was in the 1920s because that was right around the time union and confederate veterans were passing away. Same reason that around the 1990s-2010s there was a huge increase in WWII memorials being built around the country as the veterans of that war started to pass on.

This attempt to link war memorials to disrespect towards african americans is spurious.

Unless you want to try and link Grand Army of the Union building statues to african americans in the North somehow.

This lie started when the Southern Poverty (scam) Law Center tried to make a connection and thus further their cause in deconstructing history and vilifying southerners. Started around 2015 when they started putting these claims on their website....vice, huffpost, and then the mainstream media picked up on the trend and used it as a excuse to tear them down.
First, you misread what I said. I said the fact that the KKK was allowed to run rampant when the statutes were being erected was a pretty good indication that African Americans would not be allowed to put up statutes of their heroes. Is that something you disagree with? Are you going to join Thee's stupidity train and assert "gee..I don't understand why Southern courthouses don't have statutes of black heroes...must be the black people's fault?"

Second, your belief that the statues had nothing to do with reminding African Americans of their proper place in the world ignores a pretty obvious rise in overt intimidation that happened simultaneously. While correlation is not causation, smoke often indicates fire.

Third, I don't have mind reading ability that stretches a century back like you so I will say that regardless of the intent of the people erecting the statues, honoring people who fought for the right to enslave other people is going to be hurtful to those who were enslaved and their descendants.

The fact that you and others cannot admit that last point proves the Baylor commission on racial justice was and is absolutely necessary.
I agree with you on all points. I can say that honoring the dead is one thing and has a place but regarding the civil war, it is a careful place that must be exercised with caution. I'msure there are many, escpecially in Texas who fought for Texas and not really the south...having said that...I do think that we need to explore what messages are sent by statues or names.

I have a very good friend who has lived in Tyler, TX all of his life. Recently, Tyler went through an issue with one of it's high schools being named Robert E Lee. Although Tyler Lee has changed its mascot from Rebels to Red Rainders and was predominately Hispanic now, there was still strong feelings on both sides.

My friend was a graduate of Lee HS and was very resistant to the change. However, he did some research and learned that Lee was erected in 1958 and was named Robert E Lee to discourage blacks from ever wanting to attend school there. He stated that having learned that, how could he not be for changing the name.

Sometime the changing of history is necessary once we find out why things were done the way they were...sometimes it means we don't have to change history.

I also understand the fear of today's cancel culture that because Judge Baylor owned slaves, his name must be erased from existance and all references cease...it scares me too.


Ditto.

I trust that Baylor will not go overboard.
Why?
SoonerFrogs
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Booray is so full of ***** Has to be a troll.
Booray
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Doc Holliday said:

Booray said:

fadskier said:

Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

Booray said:

Thee University said:

Booray said:

Thee University said:

bubbadog said:


We put up historical markers on the site of where some early school or pioneer trading post once was but won't officially mark the site of the old slave market. Every county square in my state has a monument to its Confederate veterans or war dead -- and I have no problem with that -- but there's no public monument anywhere to the 20,000 Black men from the state who joined the Union Army and fought and died for their own freedom. If taking down Confederate statues today is cancelling, you might say that much of our history got pre-cancelled generations earlier.


A very large number of Confederate monuments around this great, free country were bought and paid for by the widows, kids and grandkids of Confederate Veterans. They raised the $$$$ by collecting pennies, nickels, dimes and other donations. They were proud of their ancestors and 95%+ did not own or have any slaves. They did not march hundreds and thousands of mile on foot and horseback to allow slave owners to keep their labor pool. They did not risk their lives voluntarily so that Boss Hog could wallow around on his plantation and they come home maimed to a mud hut or at best a log cabin.

Nothing prevented blacks, browns and yellows from erecting monuments and roadside historical markers of ancestors they were/are proud of or sites they deem historical.

Today I'm certain Black Lives Matter would part with $100 million or so so get those monuments erected. Don't you think? All it takes is a little work and sacrifice!!!
Those confederate monuments are largely at courthouses and on public land throughout the South, erected in the early 20th century. You are seriously suggesting that African-Americans could have just put up Fredrick Douglas, George Washington Carver and Harriet Tubman statues at the same time?
Damn right I am!

Did they even try? They could out up monuments anywhere in the hoods nationwide so it gets maximum exposure where black folks work, play and do business.

What were they doing? Waiting for someone else to do it for them?

Today there are thousands of black millionaires across this nation fully capable of erecting these monuments. The BLM group is flush with WHITE cash. What is holding them back? Are they waiting for white guilt to kick in and let whitey pay for it.
In the 1920's, when the Confederate statues went up, African Americans were busy trying not to get lynched by the KKK. Suggesting they could have just erected statues of black heroes in public spaces is beyond stupid. The franchise was largely denied to them until the 1960's and even once they got the vote, the idea that they could get approval for what you are suggesting is also beyond stupid.

Every time I think that the some of the conservative posters on Sic'em make valid points about too much reliance on the race card, I can count on you to demonstrate how much work needs to be done.
For the record these statues were built at the exact same time Union statues were.

Starting in the 1880s and continuing all the way until the civil war's centennial in 1960.

The big building spree was in the 1920s because that was right around the time union and confederate veterans were passing away. Same reason that around the 1990s-2010s there was a huge increase in WWII memorials being built around the country as the veterans of that war started to pass on.

This attempt to link war memorials to disrespect towards african americans is spurious.

Unless you want to try and link Grand Army of the Union building statues to african americans in the North somehow.

This lie started when the Southern Poverty (scam) Law Center tried to make a connection and thus further their cause in deconstructing history and vilifying southerners. Started around 2015 when they started putting these claims on their website....vice, huffpost, and then the mainstream media picked up on the trend and used it as a excuse to tear them down.
First, you misread what I said. I said the fact that the KKK was allowed to run rampant when the statutes were being erected was a pretty good indication that African Americans would not be allowed to put up statutes of their heroes. Is that something you disagree with? Are you going to join Thee's stupidity train and assert "gee..I don't understand why Southern courthouses don't have statutes of black heroes...must be the black people's fault?"

Second, your belief that the statues had nothing to do with reminding African Americans of their proper place in the world ignores a pretty obvious rise in overt intimidation that happened simultaneously. While correlation is not causation, smoke often indicates fire.

Third, I don't have mind reading ability that stretches a century back like you so I will say that regardless of the intent of the people erecting the statues, honoring people who fought for the right to enslave other people is going to be hurtful to those who were enslaved and their descendants.

The fact that you and others cannot admit that last point proves the Baylor commission on racial justice was and is absolutely necessary.
I agree with you on all points. I can say that honoring the dead is one thing and has a place but regarding the civil war, it is a careful place that must be exercised with caution. I'msure there are many, escpecially in Texas who fought for Texas and not really the south...having said that...I do think that we need to explore what messages are sent by statues or names.

I have a very good friend who has lived in Tyler, TX all of his life. Recently, Tyler went through an issue with one of it's high schools being named Robert E Lee. Although Tyler Lee has changed its mascot from Rebels to Red Rainders and was predominately Hispanic now, there was still strong feelings on both sides.

My friend was a graduate of Lee HS and was very resistant to the change. However, he did some research and learned that Lee was erected in 1958 and was named Robert E Lee to discourage blacks from ever wanting to attend school there. He stated that having learned that, how could he not be for changing the name.

Sometime the changing of history is necessary once we find out why things were done the way they were...sometimes it means we don't have to change history.

I also understand the fear of today's cancel culture that because Judge Baylor owned slaves, his name must be erased from existance and all references cease...it scares me too.


Ditto.

I trust that Baylor will not go overboard.
Why?


Because the Regents are a group of conservatives.
Doc Holliday
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Booray said:

Doc Holliday said:

Booray said:

fadskier said:

Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

Booray said:

Thee University said:

Booray said:

Thee University said:

bubbadog said:


We put up historical markers on the site of where some early school or pioneer trading post once was but won't officially mark the site of the old slave market. Every county square in my state has a monument to its Confederate veterans or war dead -- and I have no problem with that -- but there's no public monument anywhere to the 20,000 Black men from the state who joined the Union Army and fought and died for their own freedom. If taking down Confederate statues today is cancelling, you might say that much of our history got pre-cancelled generations earlier.


A very large number of Confederate monuments around this great, free country were bought and paid for by the widows, kids and grandkids of Confederate Veterans. They raised the $$$$ by collecting pennies, nickels, dimes and other donations. They were proud of their ancestors and 95%+ did not own or have any slaves. They did not march hundreds and thousands of mile on foot and horseback to allow slave owners to keep their labor pool. They did not risk their lives voluntarily so that Boss Hog could wallow around on his plantation and they come home maimed to a mud hut or at best a log cabin.

Nothing prevented blacks, browns and yellows from erecting monuments and roadside historical markers of ancestors they were/are proud of or sites they deem historical.

Today I'm certain Black Lives Matter would part with $100 million or so so get those monuments erected. Don't you think? All it takes is a little work and sacrifice!!!
Those confederate monuments are largely at courthouses and on public land throughout the South, erected in the early 20th century. You are seriously suggesting that African-Americans could have just put up Fredrick Douglas, George Washington Carver and Harriet Tubman statues at the same time?
Damn right I am!

Did they even try? They could out up monuments anywhere in the hoods nationwide so it gets maximum exposure where black folks work, play and do business.

What were they doing? Waiting for someone else to do it for them?

Today there are thousands of black millionaires across this nation fully capable of erecting these monuments. The BLM group is flush with WHITE cash. What is holding them back? Are they waiting for white guilt to kick in and let whitey pay for it.
In the 1920's, when the Confederate statues went up, African Americans were busy trying not to get lynched by the KKK. Suggesting they could have just erected statues of black heroes in public spaces is beyond stupid. The franchise was largely denied to them until the 1960's and even once they got the vote, the idea that they could get approval for what you are suggesting is also beyond stupid.

Every time I think that the some of the conservative posters on Sic'em make valid points about too much reliance on the race card, I can count on you to demonstrate how much work needs to be done.
For the record these statues were built at the exact same time Union statues were.

Starting in the 1880s and continuing all the way until the civil war's centennial in 1960.

The big building spree was in the 1920s because that was right around the time union and confederate veterans were passing away. Same reason that around the 1990s-2010s there was a huge increase in WWII memorials being built around the country as the veterans of that war started to pass on.

This attempt to link war memorials to disrespect towards african americans is spurious.

Unless you want to try and link Grand Army of the Union building statues to african americans in the North somehow.

This lie started when the Southern Poverty (scam) Law Center tried to make a connection and thus further their cause in deconstructing history and vilifying southerners. Started around 2015 when they started putting these claims on their website....vice, huffpost, and then the mainstream media picked up on the trend and used it as a excuse to tear them down.
First, you misread what I said. I said the fact that the KKK was allowed to run rampant when the statutes were being erected was a pretty good indication that African Americans would not be allowed to put up statutes of their heroes. Is that something you disagree with? Are you going to join Thee's stupidity train and assert "gee..I don't understand why Southern courthouses don't have statutes of black heroes...must be the black people's fault?"

Second, your belief that the statues had nothing to do with reminding African Americans of their proper place in the world ignores a pretty obvious rise in overt intimidation that happened simultaneously. While correlation is not causation, smoke often indicates fire.

Third, I don't have mind reading ability that stretches a century back like you so I will say that regardless of the intent of the people erecting the statues, honoring people who fought for the right to enslave other people is going to be hurtful to those who were enslaved and their descendants.

The fact that you and others cannot admit that last point proves the Baylor commission on racial justice was and is absolutely necessary.
I agree with you on all points. I can say that honoring the dead is one thing and has a place but regarding the civil war, it is a careful place that must be exercised with caution. I'msure there are many, escpecially in Texas who fought for Texas and not really the south...having said that...I do think that we need to explore what messages are sent by statues or names.

I have a very good friend who has lived in Tyler, TX all of his life. Recently, Tyler went through an issue with one of it's high schools being named Robert E Lee. Although Tyler Lee has changed its mascot from Rebels to Red Rainders and was predominately Hispanic now, there was still strong feelings on both sides.

My friend was a graduate of Lee HS and was very resistant to the change. However, he did some research and learned that Lee was erected in 1958 and was named Robert E Lee to discourage blacks from ever wanting to attend school there. He stated that having learned that, how could he not be for changing the name.

Sometime the changing of history is necessary once we find out why things were done the way they were...sometimes it means we don't have to change history.

I also understand the fear of today's cancel culture that because Judge Baylor owned slaves, his name must be erased from existance and all references cease...it scares me too.


Ditto.

I trust that Baylor will not go overboard.
Why?


Because the Regents are a group of conservatives.
I doubt it. They hired Linda.
Booray
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Doc Holliday said:

Booray said:

Doc Holliday said:

Booray said:

fadskier said:

Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

Booray said:

Thee University said:

Booray said:

Thee University said:

bubbadog said:


We put up historical markers on the site of where some early school or pioneer trading post once was but won't officially mark the site of the old slave market. Every county square in my state has a monument to its Confederate veterans or war dead -- and I have no problem with that -- but there's no public monument anywhere to the 20,000 Black men from the state who joined the Union Army and fought and died for their own freedom. If taking down Confederate statues today is cancelling, you might say that much of our history got pre-cancelled generations earlier.


A very large number of Confederate monuments around this great, free country were bought and paid for by the widows, kids and grandkids of Confederate Veterans. They raised the $$$$ by collecting pennies, nickels, dimes and other donations. They were proud of their ancestors and 95%+ did not own or have any slaves. They did not march hundreds and thousands of mile on foot and horseback to allow slave owners to keep their labor pool. They did not risk their lives voluntarily so that Boss Hog could wallow around on his plantation and they come home maimed to a mud hut or at best a log cabin.

Nothing prevented blacks, browns and yellows from erecting monuments and roadside historical markers of ancestors they were/are proud of or sites they deem historical.

Today I'm certain Black Lives Matter would part with $100 million or so so get those monuments erected. Don't you think? All it takes is a little work and sacrifice!!!
Those confederate monuments are largely at courthouses and on public land throughout the South, erected in the early 20th century. You are seriously suggesting that African-Americans could have just put up Fredrick Douglas, George Washington Carver and Harriet Tubman statues at the same time?
Damn right I am!

Did they even try? They could out up monuments anywhere in the hoods nationwide so it gets maximum exposure where black folks work, play and do business.

What were they doing? Waiting for someone else to do it for them?

Today there are thousands of black millionaires across this nation fully capable of erecting these monuments. The BLM group is flush with WHITE cash. What is holding them back? Are they waiting for white guilt to kick in and let whitey pay for it.
In the 1920's, when the Confederate statues went up, African Americans were busy trying not to get lynched by the KKK. Suggesting they could have just erected statues of black heroes in public spaces is beyond stupid. The franchise was largely denied to them until the 1960's and even once they got the vote, the idea that they could get approval for what you are suggesting is also beyond stupid.

Every time I think that the some of the conservative posters on Sic'em make valid points about too much reliance on the race card, I can count on you to demonstrate how much work needs to be done.
For the record these statues were built at the exact same time Union statues were.

Starting in the 1880s and continuing all the way until the civil war's centennial in 1960.

The big building spree was in the 1920s because that was right around the time union and confederate veterans were passing away. Same reason that around the 1990s-2010s there was a huge increase in WWII memorials being built around the country as the veterans of that war started to pass on.

This attempt to link war memorials to disrespect towards african americans is spurious.

Unless you want to try and link Grand Army of the Union building statues to african americans in the North somehow.

This lie started when the Southern Poverty (scam) Law Center tried to make a connection and thus further their cause in deconstructing history and vilifying southerners. Started around 2015 when they started putting these claims on their website....vice, huffpost, and then the mainstream media picked up on the trend and used it as a excuse to tear them down.
First, you misread what I said. I said the fact that the KKK was allowed to run rampant when the statutes were being erected was a pretty good indication that African Americans would not be allowed to put up statutes of their heroes. Is that something you disagree with? Are you going to join Thee's stupidity train and assert "gee..I don't understand why Southern courthouses don't have statutes of black heroes...must be the black people's fault?"

Second, your belief that the statues had nothing to do with reminding African Americans of their proper place in the world ignores a pretty obvious rise in overt intimidation that happened simultaneously. While correlation is not causation, smoke often indicates fire.

Third, I don't have mind reading ability that stretches a century back like you so I will say that regardless of the intent of the people erecting the statues, honoring people who fought for the right to enslave other people is going to be hurtful to those who were enslaved and their descendants.

The fact that you and others cannot admit that last point proves the Baylor commission on racial justice was and is absolutely necessary.
I agree with you on all points. I can say that honoring the dead is one thing and has a place but regarding the civil war, it is a careful place that must be exercised with caution. I'msure there are many, escpecially in Texas who fought for Texas and not really the south...having said that...I do think that we need to explore what messages are sent by statues or names.

I have a very good friend who has lived in Tyler, TX all of his life. Recently, Tyler went through an issue with one of it's high schools being named Robert E Lee. Although Tyler Lee has changed its mascot from Rebels to Red Rainders and was predominately Hispanic now, there was still strong feelings on both sides.

My friend was a graduate of Lee HS and was very resistant to the change. However, he did some research and learned that Lee was erected in 1958 and was named Robert E Lee to discourage blacks from ever wanting to attend school there. He stated that having learned that, how could he not be for changing the name.

Sometime the changing of history is necessary once we find out why things were done the way they were...sometimes it means we don't have to change history.

I also understand the fear of today's cancel culture that because Judge Baylor owned slaves, his name must be erased from existance and all references cease...it scares me too.


Ditto.

I trust that Baylor will not go overboard.
Why?


Because the Regents are a group of conservatives.
I doubt it. They hired Linda.
Yes, Linda Livingstone is a fire-breathing radical. Geez.
Booray
How long do you want to ignore this user?
SoonerFrogs said:

Booray is so full of ***** Has to be a troll.
Right, because people who admire Abraham Lincoln are obviously doing so just to get a reaction.
fadskier
How long do you want to ignore this user?
SoonerFrogs said:

Booray is so full of ***** Has to be a troll.
What part was he full of "****?" I may diagree with im on some things, but where is he off on this?
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

fadskier said:

Redbrickbear said:

quash said:

"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association."
DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union."
"Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live here with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life." -Abraham Lincoln

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose or desire to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races." -Abraham Lincoln

"I tell him [Douglass] very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship." - Abraham Lincoln

"I agree... he [african americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, not in moral or intellectual endowment." - Abraham Lincoln

"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform is most favorable to that separation. Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization [outside the country]." --Abraham Lincoln

"Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: we are agreed for once---a thousand times agreed." - Abraham Lincoln

[In his personal memoirs (1891), Gen. Sherman wrote that he met with Lincoln after the March to the Sea. The president was eager to hear stories about how thousands of Southern civilians mostly women, children, the elderly and the infirm had been plundered, (sometimes raped or murdered), and rendered homeless. Crimes committed by troops against the ex-slave population were also numerous. According to Sherman, Lincoln laughed uproariously at the stories. One of Sherman's biographers (Lee Kennett, Sherman: A Soldier's Life, Harper, 2002), who otherwise writes very favorably about the general, concludes that if the Confederates had won the war then they would have been "justified in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against non-combatants."]










Shows that Lincoln was human. You're making my point. Honor him for the great he did despite his faults...


What did he do that was great? Kill 600,000 people?


You live in the most prosperous, powerful and free country that has ever existed. But for Lincoln that would not be true.
The United States would have continued on and been fine. From New York to Nebraska and with its capital still at D.C.

You don't think that country would have been successful? Of course it would have.

The idea that you must crush any independence movement and kill hundreds of thousands of people so that "we can be prosperous" would be the same reasons Britain would have used to prevent American independence.
fadskier
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

fadskier said:

Redbrickbear said:

quash said:

"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association."
DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union."
"Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live here with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life." -Abraham Lincoln

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose or desire to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races." -Abraham Lincoln

"I tell him [Douglass] very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship." - Abraham Lincoln

"I agree... he [african americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, not in moral or intellectual endowment." - Abraham Lincoln

"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform is most favorable to that separation. Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization [outside the country]." --Abraham Lincoln

"Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: we are agreed for once---a thousand times agreed." - Abraham Lincoln

[In his personal memoirs (1891), Gen. Sherman wrote that he met with Lincoln after the March to the Sea. The president was eager to hear stories about how thousands of Southern civilians mostly women, children, the elderly and the infirm had been plundered, (sometimes raped or murdered), and rendered homeless. Crimes committed by troops against the ex-slave population were also numerous. According to Sherman, Lincoln laughed uproariously at the stories. One of Sherman's biographers (Lee Kennett, Sherman: A Soldier's Life, Harper, 2002), who otherwise writes very favorably about the general, concludes that if the Confederates had won the war then they would have been "justified in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against non-combatants."]










Shows that Lincoln was human. You're making my point. Honor him for the great he did despite his faults...


What did he do that was great? Kill 600,000 people?


You live in the most prosperous, powerful and free country that has ever existed. But for Lincoln that would not be true.
The United States would have continued on and been fine. From New York to Nebraska and with its capital still at D.C.

You don't think that country would have been successful? Of course it would have.

The idea that you must crush any independence movement and kill hundreds of thousands of people so that "we can be prosperous" would be the same reasons Britain would have used to prevent American independence.
What are you including in the United States? Are you saying that we would peacefulyl exist as two nations? I'm curious...
Doc Holliday
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Booray said:

Doc Holliday said:

Booray said:

Doc Holliday said:

Booray said:

fadskier said:

Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

Booray said:

Thee University said:

Booray said:

Thee University said:

bubbadog said:


We put up historical markers on the site of where some early school or pioneer trading post once was but won't officially mark the site of the old slave market. Every county square in my state has a monument to its Confederate veterans or war dead -- and I have no problem with that -- but there's no public monument anywhere to the 20,000 Black men from the state who joined the Union Army and fought and died for their own freedom. If taking down Confederate statues today is cancelling, you might say that much of our history got pre-cancelled generations earlier.


A very large number of Confederate monuments around this great, free country were bought and paid for by the widows, kids and grandkids of Confederate Veterans. They raised the $$$$ by collecting pennies, nickels, dimes and other donations. They were proud of their ancestors and 95%+ did not own or have any slaves. They did not march hundreds and thousands of mile on foot and horseback to allow slave owners to keep their labor pool. They did not risk their lives voluntarily so that Boss Hog could wallow around on his plantation and they come home maimed to a mud hut or at best a log cabin.

Nothing prevented blacks, browns and yellows from erecting monuments and roadside historical markers of ancestors they were/are proud of or sites they deem historical.

Today I'm certain Black Lives Matter would part with $100 million or so so get those monuments erected. Don't you think? All it takes is a little work and sacrifice!!!
Those confederate monuments are largely at courthouses and on public land throughout the South, erected in the early 20th century. You are seriously suggesting that African-Americans could have just put up Fredrick Douglas, George Washington Carver and Harriet Tubman statues at the same time?
Damn right I am!

Did they even try? They could out up monuments anywhere in the hoods nationwide so it gets maximum exposure where black folks work, play and do business.

What were they doing? Waiting for someone else to do it for them?

Today there are thousands of black millionaires across this nation fully capable of erecting these monuments. The BLM group is flush with WHITE cash. What is holding them back? Are they waiting for white guilt to kick in and let whitey pay for it.
In the 1920's, when the Confederate statues went up, African Americans were busy trying not to get lynched by the KKK. Suggesting they could have just erected statues of black heroes in public spaces is beyond stupid. The franchise was largely denied to them until the 1960's and even once they got the vote, the idea that they could get approval for what you are suggesting is also beyond stupid.

Every time I think that the some of the conservative posters on Sic'em make valid points about too much reliance on the race card, I can count on you to demonstrate how much work needs to be done.
For the record these statues were built at the exact same time Union statues were.

Starting in the 1880s and continuing all the way until the civil war's centennial in 1960.

The big building spree was in the 1920s because that was right around the time union and confederate veterans were passing away. Same reason that around the 1990s-2010s there was a huge increase in WWII memorials being built around the country as the veterans of that war started to pass on.

This attempt to link war memorials to disrespect towards african americans is spurious.

Unless you want to try and link Grand Army of the Union building statues to african americans in the North somehow.

This lie started when the Southern Poverty (scam) Law Center tried to make a connection and thus further their cause in deconstructing history and vilifying southerners. Started around 2015 when they started putting these claims on their website....vice, huffpost, and then the mainstream media picked up on the trend and used it as a excuse to tear them down.
First, you misread what I said. I said the fact that the KKK was allowed to run rampant when the statutes were being erected was a pretty good indication that African Americans would not be allowed to put up statutes of their heroes. Is that something you disagree with? Are you going to join Thee's stupidity train and assert "gee..I don't understand why Southern courthouses don't have statutes of black heroes...must be the black people's fault?"

Second, your belief that the statues had nothing to do with reminding African Americans of their proper place in the world ignores a pretty obvious rise in overt intimidation that happened simultaneously. While correlation is not causation, smoke often indicates fire.

Third, I don't have mind reading ability that stretches a century back like you so I will say that regardless of the intent of the people erecting the statues, honoring people who fought for the right to enslave other people is going to be hurtful to those who were enslaved and their descendants.

The fact that you and others cannot admit that last point proves the Baylor commission on racial justice was and is absolutely necessary.
I agree with you on all points. I can say that honoring the dead is one thing and has a place but regarding the civil war, it is a careful place that must be exercised with caution. I'msure there are many, escpecially in Texas who fought for Texas and not really the south...having said that...I do think that we need to explore what messages are sent by statues or names.

I have a very good friend who has lived in Tyler, TX all of his life. Recently, Tyler went through an issue with one of it's high schools being named Robert E Lee. Although Tyler Lee has changed its mascot from Rebels to Red Rainders and was predominately Hispanic now, there was still strong feelings on both sides.

My friend was a graduate of Lee HS and was very resistant to the change. However, he did some research and learned that Lee was erected in 1958 and was named Robert E Lee to discourage blacks from ever wanting to attend school there. He stated that having learned that, how could he not be for changing the name.

Sometime the changing of history is necessary once we find out why things were done the way they were...sometimes it means we don't have to change history.

I also understand the fear of today's cancel culture that because Judge Baylor owned slaves, his name must be erased from existance and all references cease...it scares me too.


Ditto.

I trust that Baylor will not go overboard.
Why?


Because the Regents are a group of conservatives.
I doubt it. They hired Linda.
Yes, Linda Livingstone is a fire-breathing radical. Geez.
You don't have to be a radical to bend the knee to radicals.
Redbrickbear
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fadskier said:

Redbrickbear said:

Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

fadskier said:

Redbrickbear said:

quash said:

"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association."
DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union."
"Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live here with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life." -Abraham Lincoln

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose or desire to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races." -Abraham Lincoln

"I tell him [Douglass] very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship." - Abraham Lincoln

"I agree... he [african americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, not in moral or intellectual endowment." - Abraham Lincoln

"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform is most favorable to that separation. Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization [outside the country]." --Abraham Lincoln

"Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: we are agreed for once---a thousand times agreed." - Abraham Lincoln

[In his personal memoirs (1891), Gen. Sherman wrote that he met with Lincoln after the March to the Sea. The president was eager to hear stories about how thousands of Southern civilians mostly women, children, the elderly and the infirm had been plundered, (sometimes raped or murdered), and rendered homeless. Crimes committed by troops against the ex-slave population were also numerous. According to Sherman, Lincoln laughed uproariously at the stories. One of Sherman's biographers (Lee Kennett, Sherman: A Soldier's Life, Harper, 2002), who otherwise writes very favorably about the general, concludes that if the Confederates had won the war then they would have been "justified in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against non-combatants."]










Shows that Lincoln was human. You're making my point. Honor him for the great he did despite his faults...


What did he do that was great? Kill 600,000 people?


You live in the most prosperous, powerful and free country that has ever existed. But for Lincoln that would not be true.
The United States would have continued on and been fine. From New York to Nebraska and with its capital still at D.C.

You don't think that country would have been successful? Of course it would have.

The idea that you must crush any independence movement and kill hundreds of thousands of people so that "we can be prosperous" would be the same reasons Britain would have used to prevent American independence.
What are you including in the United States? Are you saying that we would peacefulyl exist as two nations? I'm curious...
Canada above the St Lawrence river/Great lakes. America above the Ohio and Potomac rivers. Dixie below the Ohio/Potomac rivers.

Those are three viable English speaking nation states on the North American continent.

fadskier
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

fadskier said:

Redbrickbear said:

Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

fadskier said:

Redbrickbear said:

quash said:

"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association."
DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union."
"Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live here with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life." -Abraham Lincoln

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose or desire to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races." -Abraham Lincoln

"I tell him [Douglass] very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship." - Abraham Lincoln

"I agree... he [african americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, not in moral or intellectual endowment." - Abraham Lincoln

"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform is most favorable to that separation. Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization [outside the country]." --Abraham Lincoln

"Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: we are agreed for once---a thousand times agreed." - Abraham Lincoln

[In his personal memoirs (1891), Gen. Sherman wrote that he met with Lincoln after the March to the Sea. The president was eager to hear stories about how thousands of Southern civilians mostly women, children, the elderly and the infirm had been plundered, (sometimes raped or murdered), and rendered homeless. Crimes committed by troops against the ex-slave population were also numerous. According to Sherman, Lincoln laughed uproariously at the stories. One of Sherman's biographers (Lee Kennett, Sherman: A Soldier's Life, Harper, 2002), who otherwise writes very favorably about the general, concludes that if the Confederates had won the war then they would have been "justified in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against non-combatants."]










Shows that Lincoln was human. You're making my point. Honor him for the great he did despite his faults...


What did he do that was great? Kill 600,000 people?


You live in the most prosperous, powerful and free country that has ever existed. But for Lincoln that would not be true.
The United States would have continued on and been fine. From New York to Nebraska and with its capital still at D.C.

You don't think that country would have been successful? Of course it would have.

The idea that you must crush any independence movement and kill hundreds of thousands of people so that "we can be prosperous" would be the same reasons Britain would have used to prevent American independence.
What are you including in the United States? Are you saying that we would peacefulyl exist as two nations? I'm curious...
Canada above the St Lawrence river/Great lakes. America above the Ohio and Potomac rivers. Dixie below the Ohio/Potomac rivers.

Those are three viable English speaking nation states on the North American continent.


This might need a thread all of its own...predicting what could have been...would slavery had ended? If so, when? How long would the south survive on an agrarian economic structure?

I think there is a fiction book written in early 60's that said WW one would have consolidated us back to one nation.
Redbrickbear
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fadskier said:

Redbrickbear said:

fadskier said:

Redbrickbear said:

Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

fadskier said:

Redbrickbear said:

quash said:

"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association."
DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union."
"Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live here with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life." -Abraham Lincoln

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose or desire to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races." -Abraham Lincoln

"I tell him [Douglass] very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship." - Abraham Lincoln

"I agree... he [african americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, not in moral or intellectual endowment." - Abraham Lincoln

"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform is most favorable to that separation. Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization [outside the country]." --Abraham Lincoln

"Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: we are agreed for once---a thousand times agreed." - Abraham Lincoln

[In his personal memoirs (1891), Gen. Sherman wrote that he met with Lincoln after the March to the Sea. The president was eager to hear stories about how thousands of Southern civilians mostly women, children, the elderly and the infirm had been plundered, (sometimes raped or murdered), and rendered homeless. Crimes committed by troops against the ex-slave population were also numerous. According to Sherman, Lincoln laughed uproariously at the stories. One of Sherman's biographers (Lee Kennett, Sherman: A Soldier's Life, Harper, 2002), who otherwise writes very favorably about the general, concludes that if the Confederates had won the war then they would have been "justified in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against non-combatants."]










Shows that Lincoln was human. You're making my point. Honor him for the great he did despite his faults...


What did he do that was great? Kill 600,000 people?


You live in the most prosperous, powerful and free country that has ever existed. But for Lincoln that would not be true.
The United States would have continued on and been fine. From New York to Nebraska and with its capital still at D.C.

You don't think that country would have been successful? Of course it would have.

The idea that you must crush any independence movement and kill hundreds of thousands of people so that "we can be prosperous" would be the same reasons Britain would have used to prevent American independence.
What are you including in the United States? Are you saying that we would peacefulyl exist as two nations? I'm curious...
Canada above the St Lawrence river/Great lakes. America above the Ohio and Potomac rivers. Dixie below the Ohio/Potomac rivers.

Those are three viable English speaking nation states on the North American continent.


This might need a thread all of its own...predicting what could have been...would slavery had ended? If so, when? How long would the south survive on an agrarian economic structure?

I think there is a fiction book written in early 60's that said WW one would have consolidated us back to one nation.
Very possible that might have happened.

That's another reason Lincoln's war was so horrible. It prevented peaceful separation and peaceful reuniting. Had being an independent country ended up going badly for Dixie they might have petitioned to re-enter the Union in 10-20 years depending on how things went economically.

Slavery would have ended within 20 years just like it did in Brazil. It stopped being economically viable. 90% of all slaves brought to the Western Hemisphere were taken to central and south America. Only 10% came to North America. Rio de Janeiro and its surrounding area had more slaves than the whole of the American South.

In 1872 Brazil a full 40% of the population were slaves.

In 1865 in the USA...only 10% of the population were slaves.

Yet even though Brazil had more slaves per capita and more slaves per number than the USA....it still ended slavery peacefully by the 1880s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lei_%C3%81urea

The Golden law ended slavery in Brazil: "Aside from the activities of abolitionists, there were a number of reasons for the signing of the law: slavery was no longer profitable, as the wages of European immigrants, cost less than the upkeep of slaves, and the decline in the arrival of new slaves Brazil was the last country in the Western world to abolish slavery."



Booray
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

fadskier said:

Redbrickbear said:

quash said:

"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association."
DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union."
"Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live here with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life." -Abraham Lincoln

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose or desire to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races." -Abraham Lincoln

"I tell him [Douglass] very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship." - Abraham Lincoln

"I agree... he [african americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, not in moral or intellectual endowment." - Abraham Lincoln

"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform is most favorable to that separation. Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization [outside the country]." --Abraham Lincoln

"Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: we are agreed for once---a thousand times agreed." - Abraham Lincoln

[In his personal memoirs (1891), Gen. Sherman wrote that he met with Lincoln after the March to the Sea. The president was eager to hear stories about how thousands of Southern civilians mostly women, children, the elderly and the infirm had been plundered, (sometimes raped or murdered), and rendered homeless. Crimes committed by troops against the ex-slave population were also numerous. According to Sherman, Lincoln laughed uproariously at the stories. One of Sherman's biographers (Lee Kennett, Sherman: A Soldier's Life, Harper, 2002), who otherwise writes very favorably about the general, concludes that if the Confederates had won the war then they would have been "justified in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against non-combatants."]










Shows that Lincoln was human. You're making my point. Honor him for the great he did despite his faults...


What did he do that was great? Kill 600,000 people?


You live in the most prosperous, powerful and free country that has ever existed. But for Lincoln that would not be true.
The United States would have continued on and been fine. From New York to Nebraska and with its capital still at D.C.

You don't think that country would have been successful? Of course it would have.

The idea that you must crush any independence movement and kill hundreds of thousands of people so that "we can be prosperous" would be the same reasons Britain would have used to prevent American independence.
Always cracks me up to see the Old South defenders resort to the "independence" as the purpose of their cause. Tell it to the slaves.

Nebraska has little in common with New York; eventually their interests separate. If you let the country balkanize in the way the South suggested, you end up wit the European Union. Not that bad, but also not the greatest country that ever existed. E Pluribus Unum distinguishes our republic from the other great republics; the South wanted to throw that away.
ATL Bear
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Booray said:

ATL Bear said:

Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

fadskier said:

Redbrickbear said:

quash said:

"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association."
DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union."
"Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live here with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life." -Abraham Lincoln

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose or desire to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races." -Abraham Lincoln

"I tell him [Douglass] very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship." - Abraham Lincoln

"I agree... he [african americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, not in moral or intellectual endowment." - Abraham Lincoln

"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform is most favorable to that separation. Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization [outside the country]." --Abraham Lincoln

"Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: we are agreed for once---a thousand times agreed." - Abraham Lincoln

[In his personal memoirs (1891), Gen. Sherman wrote that he met with Lincoln after the March to the Sea. The president was eager to hear stories about how thousands of Southern civilians mostly women, children, the elderly and the infirm had been plundered, (sometimes raped or murdered), and rendered homeless. Crimes committed by troops against the ex-slave population were also numerous. According to Sherman, Lincoln laughed uproariously at the stories. One of Sherman's biographers (Lee Kennett, Sherman: A Soldier's Life, Harper, 2002), who otherwise writes very favorably about the general, concludes that if the Confederates had won the war then they would have been "justified in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against non-combatants."]










Shows that Lincoln was human. You're making my point. Honor him for the great he did despite his faults...


What did he do that was great? Kill 600,000 people?


You live in the most prosperous, powerful and free country that has ever existed. But for Lincoln that would not be true.
The selective application of this truth seems ironic given the thread topic.


How so? I answered a question: what did Lincoln do that was so great? If you want a list of his flaws I can answer that too.

I understand you to be saying that if we are going to be historically accurate about heroes, every mention of them must acknowledge their flaws. That is not what I am arguing. If I gave that impression, I miscommunicated.

I have no issue with those that point out Lincoln's negatives. I have a big problem with those who ignore his positives. I see that as the flip side of those who would deny Judge Baylor's negatives because he founded a great school.

I was more focused on your first sentence than your last. There are many "but for" people in our history that could be interchanged. The question is why are we trying to eliminate or negate those "but for" people who were vital to us becoming, as you pointed out, "the most prosperous, powerful, and free country that has ever existed"? This isn't critical analysis of our history, it is the steady paradigm shift that our prosperity and power was ill-gotten and freedom is a ruse. It's the destruction and/or shaming of our past in order to comply with the new political agenda of what equity, fairness, and society should be like today and into the future.
The_barBEARian
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Nebraskans get treated like trash by New Yorkers and have zero power in this country. Many "fly over" Americans would be better off if this country balkanized.
Booray
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ATL Bear said:

Booray said:

ATL Bear said:

Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

fadskier said:

Redbrickbear said:

quash said:

"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association."
DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union."
"Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live here with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life." -Abraham Lincoln

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose or desire to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races." -Abraham Lincoln

"I tell him [Douglass] very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship." - Abraham Lincoln

"I agree... he [african americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, not in moral or intellectual endowment." - Abraham Lincoln

"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform is most favorable to that separation. Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization [outside the country]." --Abraham Lincoln

"Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: we are agreed for once---a thousand times agreed." - Abraham Lincoln

[In his personal memoirs (1891), Gen. Sherman wrote that he met with Lincoln after the March to the Sea. The president was eager to hear stories about how thousands of Southern civilians mostly women, children, the elderly and the infirm had been plundered, (sometimes raped or murdered), and rendered homeless. Crimes committed by troops against the ex-slave population were also numerous. According to Sherman, Lincoln laughed uproariously at the stories. One of Sherman's biographers (Lee Kennett, Sherman: A Soldier's Life, Harper, 2002), who otherwise writes very favorably about the general, concludes that if the Confederates had won the war then they would have been "justified in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against non-combatants."]










Shows that Lincoln was human. You're making my point. Honor him for the great he did despite his faults...


What did he do that was great? Kill 600,000 people?


You live in the most prosperous, powerful and free country that has ever existed. But for Lincoln that would not be true.
The selective application of this truth seems ironic given the thread topic.


How so? I answered a question: what did Lincoln do that was so great? If you want a list of his flaws I can answer that too.

I understand you to be saying that if we are going to be historically accurate about heroes, every mention of them must acknowledge their flaws. That is not what I am arguing. If I gave that impression, I miscommunicated.

I have no issue with those that point out Lincoln's negatives. I have a big problem with those who ignore his positives. I see that as the flip side of those who would deny Judge Baylor's negatives because he founded a great school.

I was more focused on your first sentence than your last. There are many "but for" people in our history that could be interchanged. The question is why are we trying to eliminate or negate those "but for" people who were vital to us becoming, as you pointed out, "the most prosperous, powerful, and free country that has ever existed"? This isn't critical analysis of our history, it is the steady paradigm shift that our prosperity and power was ill-gotten and freedom is a ruse. It's the destruction and/or shaming of our past in order to comply with the new political agenda of what equity, fairness, and society should be like today and into the future.
Plenty of people fall into the trap you describe; whether through lack of critical thinking skills, inability to understand other perspectives, or intentional selfish agendas. Patting myself on the back and IMHO, that group does not include me.

I should fight them as vigorously as I fight those who ignore the actual darker parts of our history. I probably don't.
Booray
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The_barBEARian said:

Nebraskans get treated like trash by New Yorkers and have zero power in this country. Many "fly over" Americans would be better off if this country balkanized.
I wondered what it is like to live in a world where everything and everyone is a caricature?
Thee University
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quash said:


Lincoln changed his mind. Before he did he left a bunch of horrendous quotes behind. Good job finding them.
Good story!

Old Abe was a politician who held up his finger to see which way the wind was blowing.

He left a lot more behind than horrendous quotes. How about 600,000 Americans sacrificed for Abe?

How about not stopping there. Let Sherman and his terrorists rape, pillage and generally burn down the South but call it "reconstruction".
Thee University
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Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

fadskier said:

Redbrickbear said:

quash said:

"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association."
DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union."
"Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live here with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life." -Abraham Lincoln

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose or desire to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races." -Abraham Lincoln

"I tell him [Douglass] very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship." - Abraham Lincoln

"I agree... he [african americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, not in moral or intellectual endowment." - Abraham Lincoln

"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform is most favorable to that separation. Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization [outside the country]." --Abraham Lincoln

"Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: we are agreed for once---a thousand times agreed." - Abraham Lincoln

[In his personal memoirs (1891), Gen. Sherman wrote that he met with Lincoln after the March to the Sea. The president was eager to hear stories about how thousands of Southern civilians mostly women, children, the elderly and the infirm had been plundered, (sometimes raped or murdered), and rendered homeless. Crimes committed by troops against the ex-slave population were also numerous. According to Sherman, Lincoln laughed uproariously at the stories. One of Sherman's biographers (Lee Kennett, Sherman: A Soldier's Life, Harper, 2002), who otherwise writes very favorably about the general, concludes that if the Confederates had won the war then they would have been "justified in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against non-combatants."]










Shows that Lincoln was human. You're making my point. Honor him for the great he did despite his faults...


What did he do that was great? Kill 600,000 people?


You live in the most prosperous, powerful and free country that has ever existed. But for Lincoln that would not be true.
The United States would have continued on and been fine. From New York to Nebraska and with its capital still at D.C.

You don't think that country would have been successful? Of course it would have.

The idea that you must crush any independence movement and kill hundreds of thousands of people so that "we can be prosperous" would be the same reasons Britain would have used to prevent American independence.
Always cracks me up to see the Old South defenders resort to the "independence" as the purpose of their cause. Tell it to the slaves.

Nebraska has little in common with New York; eventually their interests separate. If you let the country balkanize in the way the South suggested, you end up wit the European Union. Not that bad, but also not the greatest country that ever existed. E Pluribus Unum distinguishes our republic from the other great republics; the South wanted to throw that away.
It scares me to read how people like you justify mass murderer Lincoln's actions, words and outcome.

The South did not want to throw anything good away. We got tired of being screwed by the Yankees.

I hope I live long enough to see Texas successfully secede from the increasingly wicked and misled USA.
Thee University
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Redbrickbear said:


Very possible that would have happened.

That's another reason Lincoln's war was so horrible. It prevented peaceful separation and peaceful reuniting. Had being an independent country ended up going badly for Dixie they might have petitioned to re-ender the Union in 10-20 years depending on how things went economically.

Slavery would have ended within 20 years just like it did in Brazil. It stopped being economically viable. 90% of all slaves brought to the Western Hemisphere were taken to central and south America. Only 10% came to North America. Rio de Janeiro and its surrounding area had more slaves than the whole of the American South.

In 1872 Brazil a full 40% of the population were slaves.

In 1865 in the USA...only 10% of the population were slaves.

Yet even though Brazil had more slaves per capita and more slaves per number than the USA....it still ended slavery peacefully by the 1880s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lei_%C3%81urea

The Golden law ended slavery in Brazil: "Aside from the activities of abolitionists, there were a number of reasons for the signing of the law: slavery was no longer profitable, as the wages of European immigrants, cost less than the upkeep of slaves, and the decline in the arrival of new slaves Brazil was the last country in the Western world to abolish slavery."




Slavery would have ended and it would have been replaced by a far superior work force with migrant workers from Mexico and points south.
Booray
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Thee University said:

Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

fadskier said:

Redbrickbear said:

quash said:

"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association."
DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union."
"Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live here with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life." -Abraham Lincoln

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose or desire to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races." -Abraham Lincoln

"I tell him [Douglass] very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship." - Abraham Lincoln

"I agree... he [african americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, not in moral or intellectual endowment." - Abraham Lincoln

"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform is most favorable to that separation. Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization [outside the country]." --Abraham Lincoln

"Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: we are agreed for once---a thousand times agreed." - Abraham Lincoln

[In his personal memoirs (1891), Gen. Sherman wrote that he met with Lincoln after the March to the Sea. The president was eager to hear stories about how thousands of Southern civilians mostly women, children, the elderly and the infirm had been plundered, (sometimes raped or murdered), and rendered homeless. Crimes committed by troops against the ex-slave population were also numerous. According to Sherman, Lincoln laughed uproariously at the stories. One of Sherman's biographers (Lee Kennett, Sherman: A Soldier's Life, Harper, 2002), who otherwise writes very favorably about the general, concludes that if the Confederates had won the war then they would have been "justified in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against non-combatants."]










Shows that Lincoln was human. You're making my point. Honor him for the great he did despite his faults...


What did he do that was great? Kill 600,000 people?


You live in the most prosperous, powerful and free country that has ever existed. But for Lincoln that would not be true.
The United States would have continued on and been fine. From New York to Nebraska and with its capital still at D.C.

You don't think that country would have been successful? Of course it would have.

The idea that you must crush any independence movement and kill hundreds of thousands of people so that "we can be prosperous" would be the same reasons Britain would have used to prevent American independence.
Always cracks me up to see the Old South defenders resort to the "independence" as the purpose of their cause. Tell it to the slaves.

Nebraska has little in common with New York; eventually their interests separate. If you let the country balkanize in the way the South suggested, you end up wit the European Union. Not that bad, but also not the greatest country that ever existed. E Pluribus Unum distinguishes our republic from the other great republics; the South wanted to throw that away.
It scares me to read how people like you justify mass murderer Lincoln's actions, words and outcome.

The South did not want to throw anything good away. We got tired of being screwed by the Yankees.

I hope I live long enough to see Texas successfully secede from the increasingly wicked and misled USA.




Next time the room is asked to recite the pledge or rise for the national anthem, be true to your beliefs and take a knee or raise a gloved fist.
Redbrickbear
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Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

Booray said:

Redbrickbear said:

fadskier said:

Redbrickbear said:

quash said:

"She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association."
DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861

A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union."
"Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live here with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life." -Abraham Lincoln

"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality." -Abraham Lincoln

"I have no purpose or desire to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races." -Abraham Lincoln

"I tell him [Douglass] very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship." - Abraham Lincoln

"I agree... he [african americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, not in moral or intellectual endowment." - Abraham Lincoln

"I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform is most favorable to that separation. Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization [outside the country]." --Abraham Lincoln

"Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: we are agreed for once---a thousand times agreed." - Abraham Lincoln

[In his personal memoirs (1891), Gen. Sherman wrote that he met with Lincoln after the March to the Sea. The president was eager to hear stories about how thousands of Southern civilians mostly women, children, the elderly and the infirm had been plundered, (sometimes raped or murdered), and rendered homeless. Crimes committed by troops against the ex-slave population were also numerous. According to Sherman, Lincoln laughed uproariously at the stories. One of Sherman's biographers (Lee Kennett, Sherman: A Soldier's Life, Harper, 2002), who otherwise writes very favorably about the general, concludes that if the Confederates had won the war then they would have been "justified in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against non-combatants."]










Shows that Lincoln was human. You're making my point. Honor him for the great he did despite his faults...


What did he do that was great? Kill 600,000 people?


You live in the most prosperous, powerful and free country that has ever existed. But for Lincoln that would not be true.
The United States would have continued on and been fine. From New York to Nebraska and with its capital still at D.C.

You don't think that country would have been successful? Of course it would have.

The idea that you must crush any independence movement and kill hundreds of thousands of people so that "we can be prosperous" would be the same reasons Britain would have used to prevent American independence.
Always cracks me up to see the Old South defenders resort to the "independence" as the purpose of their cause. Tell it to the slaves.

Nebraska has little in common with New York; eventually their interests separate. If you let the country balkanize in the way the South suggested, you end up wit the European Union. Not that bad, but also not the greatest country that ever existed. E Pluribus Unum distinguishes our republic from the other great republics; the South wanted to throw that away.
You still have no basic argument against the independence of states except "muh slavery".

No wonder the Federal imperialists used the argument of slavery, something they fundamental were indifferent to, in so much in their war propaganda.

"The Union government goes about liberating the enemy's slaves as it would the enemy's cattle, simply to weaken them in the conflict. Their principle is not that a human being cannot justly own another, but that he cannot own him unless he is loyal to the United States Federal government. Hardly have we seen them act when even the slightest regard or kindness to these unfortunate slaves once they were taken" ~The London Spectator

The idea off secession is basic to the American constitutional system:

"To coerce a State [to remain in the Federal union] would be one of the maddest projects ever devised." -Alexander Hamilton

"Secession, in my opinion, is fundamental to the American ideal. Without the threat of the people being able to at any time to throw off the yoke of an oppressive government none of it makes any sense whatsoever."

"To deny this right [of secession] would be inconsistent with the principle on which all of our political systems are founded." - William Rawle

"It cannot in any way be misconstrued, the founding fathers all, regardless of political thought, saw each colony as independent and free republics. The arguments then made against a centralized government, made by Jefferson, have shown to be prophecies of the highest order."

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off their existing government, and form a new one that suits them better." - Abraham Lincoln



The_barBEARian
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Booray said:

The_barBEARian said:

Nebraskans get treated like trash by New Yorkers and have zero power in this country. Many "fly over" Americans would be better off if this country balkanized.
I wondered what it is like to live in a world where everything and everyone is a caricature?


You are a democrat so you should already be very familiar with it.
Wrecks Quan Dough
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The_barBEARian said:

Booray said:

The_barBEARian said:

Nebraskans get treated like trash by New Yorkers and have zero power in this country. Many "fly over" Americans would be better off if this country balkanized.
I wondered what it is like to live in a world where everything and everyone is a caricature?


You are a democrat so you should already be very familiar with it.
Right. I assume he voted for the person whose agenda was summed up as The Fundamental Transformation of America. Now that has been accomplished, in part because of his vote or both of his votes, he cannot understand why some people no longer want to remain connected to something that we do not agree with or do not recognize or be governed by people who no longer represent us but long to rule over us.
 
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