Gameday Thread: No. 17 Baylor Looks For Revenge against No. 8 TCU in Big 12 Tourney Final

Well my guess is she generally plays better than this and I just caught her on a day when she didn't have it. Who knows.

Your eyes didn't deceive you. She has a ton of positive attributes but her main weakness displayed throughout the year has been physical hand strength (holding on to the ball). And TCU used that to their advantage on both plays. But the other poster is correct, without her scoring and soft touch (two of her strengths) we basically aren't close enough to have a shot to win.

Big12Fan2024 said:

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We played them 3 times. They beat us 3 times. We're a good team. They are just a tad better.

Let's get Littlepage-Buggs back and see what we can do in the NCAAs.

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Yep 0-3 is a solid indication. We are good but man I wish we had the same quality players we used to have.

THE THING I LIKE THE MOST ABOUT THIS YEARS TEAM....IT IS THE LAST YEAR I HAVE TO PUT UP WITH JADA WALKER AND ALL OF HER OFF BALANCE LOW PERCENTAGE LAYUP ATTEMPTS.

LTBear19 said:

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If we get the ball again down by 2, I like setting up for a 3 on that possession. If we hit that and finally take the lead, I think it stuns TCU and might be what gets us across the finish line.

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Well, that would have called for the coach calling one of her remaining 3 timeouts to settle the troops down and set up said play.

Obviously, that didn't happen.

Johnny Bear said:

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This game was lost in the first half. You can't let a team with 14 TO's walk into the locker room up by double digits no matter who they are.

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That and the coach playing it too safe and pulling Vonleh out for the remainder of the 2nd quarter when she picked up her 2nd foul.

That was when TCU went on their run and made it to where we had to claw and scratch the rest of the way just to get back in the game.

When you are constantly fighting an uphill battle, you tend to run out of gas later in the game.

There's a new sheriff in town , mark Campbell and he owns niki….

There's nothing to support this. TCU beat BU with DLB.

Guitarbiscuit said:

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Well my guess is she generally plays better than this and I just caught her on a day when she didn't have it. Who knows.

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I agree

Guitarbiscuit said:

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Big12Fan2024 said:

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We played them 3 times. They beat us 3 times. We're a good team. They are just a tad better.

Let's get Littlepage-Buggs back and see what we can do in the NCAAs.

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Yep 0-3 is a solid indication. We are good but man I wish we had the same quality players we used to have.

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We probably would have won at least one of the last two with a healthy Buggs. Just saying

IowaBear said:

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There's nothing to support this. TCU beat BU with DLB.

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Yes, there isn't. But the feeling probably comes from the infamous "eye test". Baylor when they played TCU the first time was not initially playing at the same defensive intensity at which they have been playing the last 5 or six weeks. And that ramped up intensity didn't show it self until well into the third quarter of that game where we cut the lead from 22 or so to a one-possession game by near the end. Buggs was there for that ramped up defense that made it a close game after being down by 22.

So, it reasons that the last two games with TCU could certainly have played out differently. Would it have resulted in a win or two? Impossible to know, only speculation. Point being that the defensive intensity of the latter part of that first game and what we have been playing mostly since against the best opponents caused us to outscore TCU by almost 20 points in the last parts of the first game when we ramped up our defensive intensity. The last two games we played without Buggs and could not match the effectiveness of our defense we saw at the end of the first game.

How many minutes in this game were we able to play a lineup that had spent adequate time together on the court? Because of fouls we were juggling who the five were on the court, even going to Vonleh and Abraham out there together. Why so many fouls? I think some of it was desire to be intent on defense (in the player's heads) because of likely frustration from poor shooting on the offensive end. I also would think that some of it also comes from an affect of playing two straight games where they had to go everything possible to get to today's game. You can call it laziness, lack of focus, or whatever you want to call it, but I think because of the fatigue it resulted in fouls not normally made. And then with that we are having to juggle the 5 on court all game breaking up any semblance of consistency.

That would also be operating under the assumption TCU hasn't improved. I was there today and that's the best defensive team BU has played.
There's just simply no way in hell anyone can say with a straight face that BU wins with DLB as there's data to show otherwise. It's always silly to use that as an excuse imo. Reality is TCU is simply better. And the gap is incredibly small

IowaBear said:

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That would also be operating under the assumption TCU hasn't improved. I was there today and that's the best defensive team BU has played.
There's just simply no way in hell anyone can say with a straight face that BU wins with DLB as there's data to show otherwise. It's always silly to use that as an excuse imo. Reality is TCU is simply better. And the gap is incredibly small

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Don't disagree with you. Too bad we can't get a "what if" game. Having her there is going to affect a lot. Whether that "a lot" means a better outcome no way to know what her presence (or anyone's for that matter) does to affecting other things....just like one changed play affects everything else that happens after it.

Agree with your last two statements, but in reality the only thing we know for sure is they are better when we don't have an all-conference player on the court. What would TCU be if Conner wasn't there? I think you have to put more weight on the previous two games versus the one that happened 6 weeks ago. Is that the only data on which you are relying -- the January game. Happy to hear other supporting data to support your opinion that TCU would still be unquestionably better with both teams at full strength.

It seems if you are of a mind that the gap is incredibly small wouldn't the presence of Buggs make any difference at all? If it would not then I don't think the gap is as small as you state.

oldbear69 said:

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Frogs won 1 conf game 2 urs ago … look what a recruiting coach can do …we recruit bricklayers not elite 3 pt snipers ..

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yes, when you get a masculine 6'7" female BB player it can improve your team and add HVL in there too !

Wonder how much they paid those 2 studs ?

We lost the first game against TcU on a last second 3 point attempt by Sarah.

And we lost this last game on a last second 3 point attempt by Vonleh ..

As bad as we played we still gutted out a good effort and the shots did not fall ..

They is the way the cookie crumbles sometimes. I hate cookie crumbles too !

SirBearALot said:

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oldbear69 said:

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Frogs won 1 conf game 2 urs ago … look what a recruiting coach can do …we recruit bricklayers not elite 3 pt snipers ..

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yes, when you get a masculine 6'7" female BB player it can improve your team and add HVL in there too !

Wonder how much they paid those 2 studs ?

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I googled that question and found HVL got about $700k and Prince got about $340k. No idea how accurate that info is.

SirBearALot said:

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We lost the first game against TcU on a last second 3 point attempt by Sarah.

And we lost this last game on a last second 3 point attempt by Vonleh ..

As bad as we played we still gutted out a good effort and the shots did not fall ..

They is the way the cookie crumbles sometimes. I hate cookie crumbles too !

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Still trying to figure out how you spend a whole time out drawing up a last second 3 where Vonleh somehow ends up having to take the shot (she'd only taken something like 13 3-pointers all season, according to the announcers).

Granted, Vonleh bailed the team out all game long, again, but she would not have been who I wanted to take that shot.

Also trying to understand why Walker was on the bench for those final 10 seconds (seeing she made one of our clutch 3's in the OT against OSU on Saturday).

I would have trusted her to make that shot before anyone else we had on the floor.

And some people get up in arms on here when coaching decisions are questioned.

I'll say this again: As a coach, it's your job to put your team in the best position to win. Once you do that, THEN it comes down to player execution.

Self Made Bear said:

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I think Vonleh taking the 3 was the designed play.

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It was. Frogs perimeter D was very good. Vonleh was going to be the cleanest look…IMO.
She has a descent 3 point shot.

With 10 seconds left and needing a 3, all you can really hope for is a good look against TCU's stout defense.
Yaya had a good look on a step-back 3 a week ago at home to tie it. Vonley had a very good look yesterday to tie it.

My guess is Vonleh took the shot because she was the only one getting open. That might have been the plan of the Frogette's D.

IowaBear said:

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TCU also doesn't have Maddie Scherr (All SEC) who was supposed to be apart of their team this year. That's my basic point. You roll with who you got. Injuries happen to everyone unfortunately. Read this Am that Texas and LSU playerd last night and LSU was down 2 All American players. KSU is down Ayoka Lee, ISU is down a transfer who would have played a huge role. SC lost the Watkins girl who plays a huge role. I could go on and on. It's just disingenuous imo to keep seeing people guarantee Bu wins with DLB when we have an actual data point saying otherwise.

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I hope you realize that it was not me guaranteeing anything. And of course you play with what you have. We haven't had Jana all season. But you seem to be saying two different things that seem to me to be inconsistent. The first is that the teams are extremely close to each other as they have existed up through yesterday (without Buggs), but also that having Buggs in the last two games, especially being so close, would not have made a difference. I am just not seeing how you balance those two statements.

IMO, we are not as close to TCU this year as it seems you think. But we have basically had a shot in the final minute of all three games which would have tied the game. So, from that perspective we are close with what we had on the court in all three games, although the first game we had to come back from 22 or so down. It seems had the Buggs injury not have occurred that the last two games would have been affected in a positive way towards us. If not, then it seems we are saying Buggs would have had no effect on the last two games with TCU. Yes, we lost with her in January, but we were not playing the kind of defense when we started that game as we have played in the last month or so.

I think our strength is the team total and because of that we have been able to keep the games close, but have never shown in any of them that we have dependable shooters that can match those of TCU or the rebounding ability they possess. And despite the opinion of a few, I think the coaching staff should be credited with juggling the lineup due to the limitations faced due to injuries and foul trouble to be able to keep these games close. I don't think you can match up individual players from the two teams without coming up with the definitive conclusion that TCU is better and by more than your description of being extremely close.

historian said:

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My guess is Vonleh took the shot because she was the only one getting open. That might have been the plan of the Frogette's D.

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I am sure the TCU D was not expecting what transpired and our coaches knew it.

If you watched the timeout closely on TV if you were not at the game you could see CNC drawing up the play on the play board. I specifically saw her draw the line from near the basket to outside the arc. There was no drawing after that. It was definitely designed for Vonleh to take the shot. She was the only one that TCU was going to allow to move to get an uncontested look. TCU was going to have 5 guarding 4. I think it was a case here where you have to give the staff credit for recognizing how the situation was going to develop and planning against it.

You also have to remember that TCU had a foul to give. If we were trying to dribble or pass around to get to one of our usual shooters and have them remotely close to being open enough to make a controlled shot, I can see a foul being committed with about 5 seconds to go. Then you have 5 seconds left on the inbounds to try to get someone open. We were not going to be able to get Andrews, Felder, or anyone else open for a decent shot when TCU knew we had to have a 3. We had only been able to get off 8 three's all game before that one, way below what we usually do. They had us covered and they certainly weren't going to give us anything on that play, except what they were not expecting.

This was not a failure on our coaches, it was IMO a pretty smart move to give us the best option to even to get someone open enough for an uncontested or controlled shot for a three. Just like every other play call in any sport. Had she made the shot, people here would have been calling it a great maneuver. I have absolutely no problem with the play as it was drawn up.

I don't agree that the Vonleh 3 attempt was a smart play. See our season stats here: https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/239


By percentage 14.3%, Vonleh was our second worst option, only better than Kyla who has not even attempted one. I think our chances would have been better trying a contested shot with someone capable of creating some space (Andrews, Matharu, Felder), rather than just crossing our fingers for someone who is very poor from the perimeter to suddenly make one.

Bone Squad said:

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I don't agree that the Vonleh 3 attempt was a smart play. See our season stats here: https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/239


By percentage 14.3%, Vonleh was our second worst option, only better than Kyla who has not even attempted one. I think our chances would have been better trying a contested shot with someone capable of creating some space (Andrews, Matharu, Felder), rather than just crossing our fingers for someone who is very poor from the perimeter to suddenly make one.

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I knew her season stats when I wrote that. We'll just have to disagree. All of those that "create space" had pretty much not been able to do so the entire game as evidenced by our only getting up 8 3-point shots through four quarters. Plus someone trying to get space could have just been fouled prior to getting to their space reducing our ability to get off any kind of shot off the next inbounds because a lot of the clock would have been eaten trying to create space. I don't believe we would have gotten anyone open enough for anything other to throw up a prayer. At least with Netty, she would see the basket clearly without anyone closing out on her. Last week Felder had to come around a screen and take the shot too quickly to have high accuracy. TCU was going to follow anyone going out there except Netty.

And in big moments some of those who normally don't take the shots do. Remember the Cardoso shot that saved South Carolina against Tennessee last year? I don't think she had even taken one during the year.

SPOT ON !!!

Bone Squad said:

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I don't agree that the Vonleh 3 attempt was a smart play. See our season stats here: https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/239


By percentage 14.3%, Vonleh was our second worst option, only better than Kyla who has not even attempted one. I think our chances would have been better trying a contested shot with someone capable of creating some space (Andrews, Matharu, Felder), rather than just crossing our fingers for someone who is very poor from the perimeter to suddenly make one.

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Am I reading that right?

All other available options were hitting at at least a 32% clip from downtown (with Jada and Felder both around 38%).

But we are applauding going with a 14% shooter?

I think her percentage from that spot is higher because the top of the arc is where she made all the 3s I remember her making but not sure how many she's attempted from other locations.