Great series, highly recommend it. Socialism at its' finest!
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HBO Series Chernobyl
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Last: 4 yr ago by historian
I watched the first episode last night. Looks promising. With most things like this I would like to know how much is "true story" and how much is dramatized for TV.
I work in an industrial setting and so far most of everything that has happened in the plant is believable even in the USA. We have laws specifically written to avoid some of the situations that have happened and they were written because someone did this at one time. Obviously, there a few things that have happened outside the industrial area and with the government response that are distinctly USSR and Communistic that we wouldn't expect to see here.
I work in an industrial setting and so far most of everything that has happened in the plant is believable even in the USA. We have laws specifically written to avoid some of the situations that have happened and they were written because someone did this at one time. Obviously, there a few things that have happened outside the industrial area and with the government response that are distinctly USSR and Communistic that we wouldn't expect to see here.
Chernobyl, in short, failed as designed. True, the graphite controls were not optimal but not unheard of or wrong. It was a perfectly functional plant with perfectly adequate safety measures. Unfortunately, deliberate human action rendered them all useless.sahen said:
I watched the first episode last night. Looks promising. With most things like this I would like to know how much is "true story" and how much is dramatized for TV.
I work in an industrial setting and so far most of everything that has happened in the plant is believable even in the USA. We have laws specifically written to avoid some of the situations that have happened and they were written because someone did this at one time. Obviously, there a few things that have happened outside the industrial area and with the government response that are distinctly USSR and Communistic that we wouldn't expect to see here.
The operators wanted to test the safety equipment (not a bad idea), so they 'simulated' a runaway reactor - one where the heat source (radioactive uranium) couldn't be controlled. The idea was not clearly communicated (apparently), so rather than 'simulate', they actually disabled the part of the reactor that moderates that heat.
As the reactor became hotter and more unstable, the appropriate alarms and warnings sounded. Again, under the impression that they were simulating, the alarms were ignored. The fail-safes designed to save the reactor started operation. They were likewise disabled as the engineers in charge thought they were still simulating.
We know how the story goes. Eventually, the reactor failed. The graphite moderation rods ignited (hard to do) and melted through the reaction container. Combined with the overpressured pipes blasting steam through the core, uranium radiation and assorted wastes shot everywhere.
Past the industrial tragedy came the political (for lack of a better word) tragedy. Even as neighboring countries documented the burning reactor and measured toxic clouds and radiation, no one on the ground wanted to acknowledge the seriousness of the situation. Industrial accidents occur either through entropy or human error all over the world. The accidents cause injury and death. However, Chernobyl is noted for its completely avoidable nature, and the frankly ongoing failure to acknowledge it and mitigate it.
This applies to countless systems within communism -Mr Tulip said:Chernobyl, in short, failed as designed. True, the graphite controls were not optimal but not unheard of or wrong. It was a perfectly functional plant with perfectly adequate safety measures. Unfortunately, deliberate human action rendered them all useless.sahen said:
I watched the first episode last night. Looks promising. With most things like this I would like to know how much is "true story" and how much is dramatized for TV.
I work in an industrial setting and so far most of everything that has happened in the plant is believable even in the USA. We have laws specifically written to avoid some of the situations that have happened and they were written because someone did this at one time. Obviously, there a few things that have happened outside the industrial area and with the government response that are distinctly USSR and Communistic that we wouldn't expect to see here.
The operators wanted to test the safety equipment (not a bad idea), so they 'simulated' a runaway reactor - one where the heat source (radioactive uranium) couldn't be controlled. The idea was not clearly communicated (apparently), so rather than 'simulate', they actually disabled the part of the reactor that moderates that heat.
As the reactor became hotter and more unstable, the appropriate alarms and warnings sounded. Again, under the impression that they were simulating, the alarms were ignored. The fail-safes designed to save the reactor started operation. They were likewise disabled as the engineers in charge thought they were still simulating.
We know how the story goes. Eventually, the reactor failed. The graphite moderation rods ignited (hard to do) and melted through the reaction container. Combined with the overpressured pipes blasting steam through the core, uranium radiation and assorted wastes shot everywhere.
Past the industrial tragedy came the political (for lack of a better word) tragedy. Even as neighboring countries documented the burning reactor and measured toxic clouds and radiation, no one on the ground wanted to acknowledge the seriousness of the situation. Industrial accidents occur either through entropy or human error all over the world. The accidents cause injury and death. However, Chernobyl is noted for its completely avoidable nature, and the frankly ongoing failure to acknowledge it and mitigate it.
That's pretty glib. The Soviets were operating under more socialist that communist principles. That's both beside and a large part of the point.
The Soviet Russia model had "central planning" as its feature. The idea was that the government, holding all the resources and all the knowledge, would be able to efficiently and intelligently know what was needed where and when, and could distribute resources and ensure proper completion accordingly. The plan was developed, then pushed to lower and lower levels of government operations as necessary.
At the bottom of it all would be a factory told to produce <x> amount of widgets in <y> days. They'd have the resources to do it, it would get done (because everyone loves doing their part), and the guy relying on those widgets could do his part when they were ready. It would all click, and Mother Russia would be a model of efficiency.
Of course, what would actually happen is that there'd be something bunged up along the way. No one wanted to be the block in the chain that failed (or at least they wouldn't want to report it), so they'd just manage as best they could. This usually led to materials being produced out of spec when raw ingredients or labor would not arrive according to plan. The producer would stretch or substitute materials in order to complete his quota.
Typically, the counterfeit parts would be discovered at a really inopportune time, like when a critical system failed.
Many countries with highly socialist governments (it's practically never an "all or nothing" proposition) operate wonderfully. In this instance, the constant authoritarian stance, featuring punishments for not achieving assigned goals, led to blame shifting and dishonesty. When information, particularly bad news, cannot freely flow to the decision makers, the data will be corrupted and the decisions will be flawed.
The Soviet Russia model had "central planning" as its feature. The idea was that the government, holding all the resources and all the knowledge, would be able to efficiently and intelligently know what was needed where and when, and could distribute resources and ensure proper completion accordingly. The plan was developed, then pushed to lower and lower levels of government operations as necessary.
At the bottom of it all would be a factory told to produce <x> amount of widgets in <y> days. They'd have the resources to do it, it would get done (because everyone loves doing their part), and the guy relying on those widgets could do his part when they were ready. It would all click, and Mother Russia would be a model of efficiency.
Of course, what would actually happen is that there'd be something bunged up along the way. No one wanted to be the block in the chain that failed (or at least they wouldn't want to report it), so they'd just manage as best they could. This usually led to materials being produced out of spec when raw ingredients or labor would not arrive according to plan. The producer would stretch or substitute materials in order to complete his quota.
Typically, the counterfeit parts would be discovered at a really inopportune time, like when a critical system failed.
Many countries with highly socialist governments (it's practically never an "all or nothing" proposition) operate wonderfully. In this instance, the constant authoritarian stance, featuring punishments for not achieving assigned goals, led to blame shifting and dishonesty. When information, particularly bad news, cannot freely flow to the decision makers, the data will be corrupted and the decisions will be flawed.
Communist / Socialist - tomayto, tomahto
Central planning fails miserably next to the market. To continue my glibness .... the USSR had many that compare to the worst of worst government employee stereotypes - little chance of advancement, little chance of termination. It was not the people, but the system.
One of my BU Eco profs spent a good deal of time studying their system. he told me a common saying there was "They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work"
Central planning fails miserably next to the market. To continue my glibness .... the USSR had many that compare to the worst of worst government employee stereotypes - little chance of advancement, little chance of termination. It was not the people, but the system.
One of my BU Eco profs spent a good deal of time studying their system. he told me a common saying there was "They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work"
Nuclear power is still the safest and most efficient mass energy producer available.
On this, we certainly agree. Humans innovate and create best with incentive. It can be the loyalty to the group, but it's usually the opportunity to improve ones lot. The USSR had neither.Keyser Soze said:
Communist / Socialist - tomayto, tomahto
Central planning fails miserably next to the market. To continue my glibness .... the USSR had many that compare to the worst of worst government employee stereotypes - little chance of advancement, little chance of termination. It was not the people, but the system.
One of my BU Eco profs spent a good deal of time studying their system. he told me a common saying there was "They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work"
I believe the USA currently does not return enough of the revenue generated by labor to the workers. I'm concerned that, coupled with the popular vote, could lead to a revolt and the establishment of the "People's Republic of America". I believe this would be disastrous! There are many pathways to avoiding this, and I'd like to see serious discussions.
My wife's minor plan at Baylor was Slavic Studies. I've often quipped that unless it's caviar or literature, "Made in USSR" was not a good thing (see positive pressure exploding TV Tubes and, well, Aeroflot). Chernobyl was an exoscale example.
(edited on the advice of the Department of Redundancy Department)
Mr Tulip said:On this, we certainly agree. Humans innovate and create best with incentive. It can be the loyalty to the group, but it's usually the opportunity to improve ones lot. The USSR had neither.Keyser Soze said:
Communist / Socialist - tomayto, tomahto
Central planning fails miserably next to the market. To continue my glibness .... the USSR had many that compare to the worst of worst government employee stereotypes - little chance of advancement, little chance of termination. It was not the people, but the system.
One of my BU Eco profs spent a good deal of time studying their system. he told me a common saying there was "They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work"
I believe the USA currently does not return enough of the revenue generated by labor to the workers. I'm concerned that, coupled with the popular vote, could lead to a revolt and the establishment of the "People's Republic of America". I believe this would be disastrous! There are many pathways to avoiding this, and I'd like to see serious discussions.
My wife's minor plan at Baylor was Slavic Studies. I've often quipped that unless it's caviar or literature, "Made in USSR" was not a good thing (see positive pressure exploding TV Tubes and, well, Aeroflot). Chernobyl was an exoscale example.
(edited on the advice of the Department of Redundancy Department)
Agree - when the government takes less of what you earned in the first place nothing has been given
Keyser Soze said:This applies to countless systems within communism -Mr Tulip said:Chernobyl, in short, failed as designed. True, the graphite controls were not optimal but not unheard of or wrong. It was a perfectly functional plant with perfectly adequate safety measures. Unfortunately, deliberate human action rendered them all useless.sahen said:
I watched the first episode last night. Looks promising. With most things like this I would like to know how much is "true story" and how much is dramatized for TV.
I work in an industrial setting and so far most of everything that has happened in the plant is believable even in the USA. We have laws specifically written to avoid some of the situations that have happened and they were written because someone did this at one time. Obviously, there a few things that have happened outside the industrial area and with the government response that are distinctly USSR and Communistic that we wouldn't expect to see here.
The operators wanted to test the safety equipment (not a bad idea), so they 'simulated' a runaway reactor - one where the heat source (radioactive uranium) couldn't be controlled. The idea was not clearly communicated (apparently), so rather than 'simulate', they actually disabled the part of the reactor that moderates that heat.
As the reactor became hotter and more unstable, the appropriate alarms and warnings sounded. Again, under the impression that they were simulating, the alarms were ignored. The fail-safes designed to save the reactor started operation. They were likewise disabled as the engineers in charge thought they were still simulating.
We know how the story goes. Eventually, the reactor failed. The graphite moderation rods ignited (hard to do) and melted through the reaction container. Combined with the overpressured pipes blasting steam through the core, uranium radiation and assorted wastes shot everywhere.
Past the industrial tragedy came the political (for lack of a better word) tragedy. Even as neighboring countries documented the burning reactor and measured toxic clouds and radiation, no one on the ground wanted to acknowledge the seriousness of the situation. Industrial accidents occur either through entropy or human error all over the world. The accidents cause injury and death. However, Chernobyl is noted for its completely avoidable nature, and the frankly ongoing failure to acknowledge it and mitigate it.
It applies to countless human organizations. Usually any managed by fear
Great series. Watched it all yesterday and today. Highly recommend.
Ummm. We're not above it to some degree. Carless workers and managers.Keyser Soze said:
This applies to countless systems within communism -
https://earther.gizmodo.com/second-houston-chemical-plant-fire-spews-thousands-of-p-1833774138
Great finale for the series. Was surprised to find out that Ulana's character was fictional. The wrap up showing the life of each character after the episode was outstanding.
Do not take a selfie at The Elephant's Foot.
Important safety tip. Thanks, Egon.
Important safety tip. Thanks, Egon.
watched the series over the past few days.
really well done. great television.
really well done. great television.
I taped this and have watched 4 of the 5 episodes thus far.
It's one of the best miniseries I've ever watched.
Blaming the failures totally on communism is disingenuous. We've had our own disasters caused by incompetence and cover-ups--the 2010 Gulf Oil spill / Deepwater Horizon explosion ranks among the top in recent memory, but the Exxon Valdez spill was also catastrophic to the Alaskan coast. The failure of various levies in New Orleans thanks to poor / non-existent maintenance / lack of funding for instrastructure maintenance and improvements is another.
Capitalism doesn't stop such disasters and cover-us from happening; it just shifts the people engaged in gaslighting, half-truths and campaigns of disinformation from government officials to corporate officials. The 2008 economic collapse was a disaster crafted by reckless gambling and horrible product construction by major players in the world's financial markets, and many of the architects of that collapse were never held accountable. Tobacco manufacturers were allowed to lie to the public about the health risks of their products for decades; the government was complicit. Opioid manufacturers have followed the same model and are about to face the same spate of lawsuits from states whose Medicaid programs have paid to address the health problems created by their products.
This series is particularly timely given its emphasis on scientists who know what's happening and what needs to be done to address the problem--and the high costs of those solutions--and government apparatchiks that make policy based on their own disinformation. Worldwide, we're doing that regarding climate change--but particularly in the U.S. The stakes are really high.
It's one of the best miniseries I've ever watched.
Blaming the failures totally on communism is disingenuous. We've had our own disasters caused by incompetence and cover-ups--the 2010 Gulf Oil spill / Deepwater Horizon explosion ranks among the top in recent memory, but the Exxon Valdez spill was also catastrophic to the Alaskan coast. The failure of various levies in New Orleans thanks to poor / non-existent maintenance / lack of funding for instrastructure maintenance and improvements is another.
Capitalism doesn't stop such disasters and cover-us from happening; it just shifts the people engaged in gaslighting, half-truths and campaigns of disinformation from government officials to corporate officials. The 2008 economic collapse was a disaster crafted by reckless gambling and horrible product construction by major players in the world's financial markets, and many of the architects of that collapse were never held accountable. Tobacco manufacturers were allowed to lie to the public about the health risks of their products for decades; the government was complicit. Opioid manufacturers have followed the same model and are about to face the same spate of lawsuits from states whose Medicaid programs have paid to address the health problems created by their products.
This series is particularly timely given its emphasis on scientists who know what's happening and what needs to be done to address the problem--and the high costs of those solutions--and government apparatchiks that make policy based on their own disinformation. Worldwide, we're doing that regarding climate change--but particularly in the U.S. The stakes are really high.
Nuclear power is a great idea--especially if you can find a way to safely dispose of the waste. Socialism in any form is a terrible idea every time it is tried.
Do We Get The Russian Version lol ?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/07/chernobyl-hbo-russian-tv-remake
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/07/chernobyl-hbo-russian-tv-remake
Naturally, the Commies will blame the U.S. for their own mistakes! America's leftists/Commies/fascists have been doing the same thing for years.Aliceinbubbleland said:
Do We Get The Russian Version lol ?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/07/chernobyl-hbo-russian-tv-remake
In the aftermath, the bureaucracy built into central planning did have everyone more concerned with shifting the blame than providing useful knowledge.
However, there's no way to pretend that sentiment is uniquely Soviet. while "socialism" is usually used incorrectly as an "all or nothing" pejorative, it takes practically no effort to locate incidences of clearly "capitalist" entities doing the exact same thing.
It's a human tendency. Strangely, we all seem to be human.
In theory, socialism is about the abolition of private property and the public ownership of the "means of production" (farms, factories, machinery, etc). All of this is done in the quest for "equality", meaning everyone is equal in every way--and also meaning socialists have no grasp on reality.
In practice, it means that government owns and controls various parts of the economy so that the people become cogs in some vast, impersonal machine, increasingly lose their liberty, and therefore become slaves. The chains don't have to be literal although some socialist states have gulags or "reeducation camps" (concentration camps).
The socialist elements in the U.S. include public ownership of education, VA hospitals, Social Security, and the welfare state--none of which are success stories. If you depend on government for food, housing, health care, education, & so on then how free are you?
At the extreme are places like Cuba, North Korea & Venezuela. All are hell-holes I don't even want to visit. The socialist "success stories" in between that Bernie & Liz like to cite (Scandinavia) label themselves capitalist and have been turning away from socialism in recent years because those socialist parts of their economies don't work.
In practice, it means that government owns and controls various parts of the economy so that the people become cogs in some vast, impersonal machine, increasingly lose their liberty, and therefore become slaves. The chains don't have to be literal although some socialist states have gulags or "reeducation camps" (concentration camps).
The socialist elements in the U.S. include public ownership of education, VA hospitals, Social Security, and the welfare state--none of which are success stories. If you depend on government for food, housing, health care, education, & so on then how free are you?
At the extreme are places like Cuba, North Korea & Venezuela. All are hell-holes I don't even want to visit. The socialist "success stories" in between that Bernie & Liz like to cite (Scandinavia) label themselves capitalist and have been turning away from socialism in recent years because those socialist parts of their economies don't work.
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