historian said:

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Aberzombie1892 said:

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BUBBFAN said:

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Crazy. My Freshman year at a state university in Texas the tuition was $50 a semester hour. Went up to $75 before I graduated.

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Oddly enough, tuition was literally $0 at virtually all institutions across the US prior to the 1960s. It's funny because some people honestly don't know that, and it generally shows when they engage conversations about how bad it is now.

https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/free-college-was-once-the-norm-all-over-america/

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Nothing is free. Somebody always pays. Curious that you link to a socialist web site although not totally unexpected given the title of the piece. But propaganda usually is not authoritative.

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According to Baylor history, it cost $8-$15 per term to attend Baylor in 1847.

boognish_bear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Aberzombie1892 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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boognish_bear said:

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Cost of Attendance includes tuition, room and board, book fees, and meal plan.

It's insane the inflation that's been seen in college tuition the last 20 or so years.

Cost of Attendance (COA) of Texas FBS Schools pic.twitter.com/kxs8ohKYo8

— Texas Football Life (@txfblife) January 7, 2023

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Total waste of money for most everyone attending

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ut-Austin at $29,000 is the only deal on the list.

And this is with me hating that school with every fiber of my being.

But that price for a very highly ranked state school and in the very expensive Austin metro market is a good deal.

The rest are down right laughable....over $35,000 a year for any of the Texas private schools is a joke....and I can not even imagine anyone paying that price for Texas State or UTSA (both should cost about 15K all in).

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The numbers include things like housing and food (which I think wasn't necessary), so it makes the schools all look a bit more expensive than they actually are.

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sure.

But that is why my still point stands.

$29,000 all in for ut-austin is a good deal....even if I don't like ut.

68K for Baylor or 70k for TCU is a joke. And the same for SMU and the others.

A decent all in price at Baylor (tuition, meals, & housing) should be $35,000-$40,000.

For instance my wife and I pay $1100 in monthly payments for a decent size house. We pay $300 a week for groceries for 3 kids. So lets say Baylor needs to charge that same amount for housing and meals for each student (they don't)...basically around $27,600 a year in housing and meals. That means they are still charging $40,400 for just tuition.

Its ridiculously expensive for a school in Waco Texas.

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That graph tells the story. Out of control tuition inflation and rising healthcare costs are taking a hatchet to the middle and upper middle class.

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And what do tuition & health care have in common? Increased government control. The more Govt is involved in anything, the more that costs. Somebody has to pay for all the parasitic bureaucrats to keep records & drive up costs with stupid rules & regulations!

boognish_bear said:

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The 2 years at community college before finishing at a 4 year is the best financial choice. You just miss out on the fun college freshman experience though. Some of my favorite memories were from freshman year at BU.

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One of my favorite parts of every football game is the running of the Baylor Line. There are other unique experiences for freshmen but that is one of the best.

No Quarterback said:

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I can tell you that a lot of the kids taking on debt to be at Baylor are under the impression that they are going to walk into whatever business with their freshly printed degree and walk out with a solid job. That is far from the reality from many young alumni that I have interacted with. There are a couple programs like accounting where a Baylor degree is pretty well respected, but for most jobs, it's just a box that is being checked unless you have some sort of connection

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That's pretty much true everywhere. It's also one reason Aggies are so faithful: Aggie grads often can get jobs right after graduation, especially in engineering & other tech fields.

EatMoreSalmon said:

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historian said:

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Aberzombie1892 said:

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BUBBFAN said:

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Crazy. My Freshman year at a state university in Texas the tuition was $50 a semester hour. Went up to $75 before I graduated.

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Oddly enough, tuition was literally $0 at virtually all institutions across the US prior to the 1960s. It's funny because some people honestly don't know that, and it generally shows when they engage conversations about how bad it is now.

https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/free-college-was-once-the-norm-all-over-america/

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Nothing is free. Somebody always pays. Curious that you link to a socialist web site although not totally unexpected given the title of the piece. But propaganda usually is not authoritative.

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According to Baylor history, it cost $8-$15 per term to attend Baylor in 1847.

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The cost of living was vastly different then. Such comparisons are basically meaningless without a cost of living or similar adjustment.

historian said:

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EatMoreSalmon said:

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historian said:

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Aberzombie1892 said:

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BUBBFAN said:

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Crazy. My Freshman year at a state university in Texas the tuition was $50 a semester hour. Went up to $75 before I graduated.

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Oddly enough, tuition was literally $0 at virtually all institutions across the US prior to the 1960s. It's funny because some people honestly don't know that, and it generally shows when they engage conversations about how bad it is now.

https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/free-college-was-once-the-norm-all-over-america/

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Nothing is free. Somebody always pays. Curious that you link to a socialist web site although not totally unexpected given the title of the piece. But propaganda usually is not authoritative.

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According to Baylor history, it cost $8-$15 per term to attend Baylor in 1847.

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The cost of living was vastly different then. Such comparisons are basically meaningless without a cost of living or similar adjustment.

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It does show it wasn't by any means free.

Depending on where you look, that range in today's dollars is anywhere from $540 - $1620 per term. One also has to look at the average wages then as well as the average percent of income households spent on basic living - food, clothing, shelter.

The nature of going to college was also much, much different back then. This cultural phenomenon of 'everybody needs to go to college because you don't want to spend your life digging ditches' was not really a thing in the mid-19th century. College was a very much an aristocratic endeavor. Society was largely agricultural, and the industrial revolution was starting to kick off where people without a degree could move to the big city and get a reasonable factory job that could support a family. nowadays, it's becoming where you need that degree to check the box that will allow you to get a middle class job.

I think a 4 year college model will slowly start to fade away in the future.

It seems like for most careers much of what you learn in college doesn't directly translate to what you do in your job day to day. Employers/companies will train and teach you and you will learn more on the job as you advance in your career.

I think at some point in the future going through 4 years of college will become an unnecessary step for a successful path for many professional careers.

https://hbr.org/2021/08/you-dont-need-a-college-degree-to-land-a-great-job

"There was more demand for jobs than there were openings, and to be a competitive candidate, you needed a degree to demonstrate your competence.

Today, however, the tables have turned.

Now, companies need more workers than workers need jobs. Instead of weeding people out, businesses are tasked with figuring out how to bring new talent in, and removing the college degree requirement has been an effective way to do so.

Plainly put, not having a college degree should not diminish your chances of securing a good job. This is good news for many young people entering the workforce."

boognish_bear said:

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I think a 4 year college model will slowly start to fade away in the future.

It seems like for most careers much of what you learn in college doesn't directly translate to what you do in your job day to day. Employers/companies will train and teach you and you will learn more on the job as you advance in your career.

I think at some point in the future going through 4 years of college will become an unnecessary step for a successful path for many professional careers.

https://hbr.org/2021/08/you-dont-need-a-college-degree-to-land-a-great-job

"There was more demand for jobs than there were openings, and to be a competitive candidate, you needed a degree to demonstrate your competence.

Today, however, the tables have turned.

Now, companies need more workers than workers need jobs. Instead of weeding people out, businesses are tasked with figuring out how to bring new talent in, and removing the college degree requirement has been an effective way to do so.

Plainly put, not having a college degree should not diminish your chances of securing a good job. This is good news for many young people entering the workforce."

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The key is to focus on who actually gets the job and not the minimum requirement of the job postings, as a growing amount of employers are dropping the degree requirements from their posting but they are still predominantly hiring college graduates.

Aberzombie1892 said:

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boognish_bear said:

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I think a 4 year college model will slowly start to fade away in the future.

It seems like for most careers much of what you learn in college doesn't directly translate to what you do in your job day to day. Employers/companies will train and teach you and you will learn more on the job as you advance in your career.

I think at some point in the future going through 4 years of college will become an unnecessary step for a successful path for many professional careers.

https://hbr.org/2021/08/you-dont-need-a-college-degree-to-land-a-great-job

"There was more demand for jobs than there were openings, and to be a competitive candidate, you needed a degree to demonstrate your competence.

Today, however, the tables have turned.

Now, companies need more workers than workers need jobs. Instead of weeding people out, businesses are tasked with figuring out how to bring new talent in, and removing the college degree requirement has been an effective way to do so.

Plainly put, not having a college degree should not diminish your chances of securing a good job. This is good news for many young people entering the workforce."

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The key is to focus on who actually gets the job and not the minimum requirement of the job postings, as a growing amount of employers are dropping the degree requirements from their posting but they are still predominantly hiring college graduates.

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That is certainly true now....but I'm talking 25+ years from now. I'm just wondering if we are headed on trajectory where a 4 year degree will become less and less a necessity for professional jobs.

https://www.computerworld.com/article/3669412/companies-move-to-drop-college-degree-requirements-for-new-hires-focus-on-skills.html

"For example, tech bootcamp graduates, including coding bootcamps, report quickly finding full-time jobs, a quick return on their educatioanl investment, higher salaries, and better STEM career opportunities. That's according to a recent survey of 3,800 US graduates of university bootcamps by US tech education platform company 2U and Gallup.

CompTIA's study called out former IBM CEO Virginia Rometty for noting, "cloud, cybersecurity, financial operations and many healthcare jobs can all begin without a four-year degree, and many applicants may choose to get more education later on." "

boykin_spaniel said:

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Growing numbers, specifically young men, are not going to college. With costs like these no wonder. As long as they're getting apprenticeships or something more power to them. Will definitely be the end of some schools, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Some economists worry though that these kids are just staying in their parents basements which would be bad.

The tv show The Wire breaks down economic strata very well. For people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps they first need boots and straps. For many college is not becoming a way to pull yourself up but a mechanism to keep you down. People with expensive PHD's make less than a construction foreman with a GED. Why pay all that money then? Go swing a hammer.

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They aren't.. not at any higher rate than previous. The debate has been increasing though over the last decade and I'm sure it will start to ramp up. The numbers are something like 60/40 now in aggregate at universities in the US. That creates all types of concerning future social dynamic problems.

Companies got comfortable for the last 30 yrs with easy policy and ample labor supply. We are heading into a more structurally tight labor environment. They will have to anti up on training and recruiting while reducing the baseline qualifications to make it happen. I could see the wild college degree with 5+ yrs experience prereqs start to fall off some of the more entry level type positions.

And as you said the more specialized active labor work requirements will have to be met with more apprenticeships and training programs.

Fre3dombear said:

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The issue is most everyone is getting a degree that has zero chance of paying off in 10-20 years. Most people don't work in field of their degree. So can make arguments about networking at college xyz etc

That said, media has convinced them "with a degree, you're educated". Nah

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Its something wild like 70%+. The US job matching and filling is a highly inefficient mkt. Probably the most inefficient of any of the mkts we have.

Aberzombie1892 said:

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boognish_bear said:

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I think a 4 year college model will slowly start to fade away in the future.

It seems like for most careers much of what you learn in college doesn't directly translate to what you do in your job day to day. Employers/companies will train and teach you and you will learn more on the job as you advance in your career.

I think at some point in the future going through 4 years of college will become an unnecessary step for a successful path for many professional careers.

https://hbr.org/2021/08/you-dont-need-a-college-degree-to-land-a-great-job

"There was more demand for jobs than there were openings, and to be a competitive candidate, you needed a degree to demonstrate your competence.

Today, however, the tables have turned.

Now, companies need more workers than workers need jobs. Instead of weeding people out, businesses are tasked with figuring out how to bring new talent in, and removing the college degree requirement has been an effective way to do so.

Plainly put, not having a college degree should not diminish your chances of securing a good job. This is good news for many young people entering the workforce."

---

The key is to focus on who actually gets the job and not the minimum requirement of the job postings, as a growing amount of employers are dropping the degree requirements from their posting but they are still predominantly hiring college graduates.

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True.. but over time more and more will be filled with folks that don't meet all of these. It is an early indicator. Anecdotally I've heard (up until the last 6 months that have been a little slower/stagnant) that some companies have "reached" a bit more on hires which is a good thing in my view. First steps.

Quinton said:

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Aberzombie1892 said:

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boognish_bear said:

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I think a 4 year college model will slowly start to fade away in the future.

It seems like for most careers much of what you learn in college doesn't directly translate to what you do in your job day to day. Employers/companies will train and teach you and you will learn more on the job as you advance in your career.

I think at some point in the future going through 4 years of college will become an unnecessary step for a successful path for many professional careers.

https://hbr.org/2021/08/you-dont-need-a-college-degree-to-land-a-great-job

"There was more demand for jobs than there were openings, and to be a competitive candidate, you needed a degree to demonstrate your competence.

Today, however, the tables have turned.

Now, companies need more workers than workers need jobs. Instead of weeding people out, businesses are tasked with figuring out how to bring new talent in, and removing the college degree requirement has been an effective way to do so.

Plainly put, not having a college degree should not diminish your chances of securing a good job. This is good news for many young people entering the workforce."

---

The key is to focus on who actually gets the job and not the minimum requirement of the job postings, as a growing amount of employers are dropping the degree requirements from their posting but they are still predominantly hiring college graduates.

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True.. but over time more and more will be filled with folks that don't meet all of these. It is an early indicator. Anecdotally I've heard (up until the last 6 months that have been a little slower/stagnant) that some companies have "reached" a bit more on hires which is a good thing in my view. First steps.

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There is simply too much competition (i.e. other candidates with degrees), consolidation (i.e. companies merging and the associated redundancy), and restriction (i.e. collapsing of the middle class) for that to change in a meaningful way in the near future (15+ years). Sure, there is the example of some bootcamp graduates having success, but there are also a range of lawsuits indicating that such bootcamps may not be what they say they are.* Even if we presume that they are what they say they are, the majority of the higher paying occupations all either require a degree of some form or the vast majority of those employed with medium/larger employers hold a degree (i.e. nursing, law, medicine, aviation, Information technology, engineering, architecture, etc.).


*New lawsuit alleges online programming boot camp is fooling students (yahoo.com)

Aberzombie1892 said:

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Quinton said:

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Aberzombie1892 said:

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boognish_bear said:

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I think a 4 year college model will slowly start to fade away in the future.

It seems like for most careers much of what you learn in college doesn't directly translate to what you do in your job day to day. Employers/companies will train and teach you and you will learn more on the job as you advance in your career.

I think at some point in the future going through 4 years of college will become an unnecessary step for a successful path for many professional careers.

https://hbr.org/2021/08/you-dont-need-a-college-degree-to-land-a-great-job

"There was more demand for jobs than there were openings, and to be a competitive candidate, you needed a degree to demonstrate your competence.

Today, however, the tables have turned.

Now, companies need more workers than workers need jobs. Instead of weeding people out, businesses are tasked with figuring out how to bring new talent in, and removing the college degree requirement has been an effective way to do so.

Plainly put, not having a college degree should not diminish your chances of securing a good job. This is good news for many young people entering the workforce."

---

The key is to focus on who actually gets the job and not the minimum requirement of the job postings, as a growing amount of employers are dropping the degree requirements from their posting but they are still predominantly hiring college graduates.

---

True.. but over time more and more will be filled with folks that don't meet all of these. It is an early indicator. Anecdotally I've heard (up until the last 6 months that have been a little slower/stagnant) that some companies have "reached" a bit more on hires which is a good thing in my view. First steps.

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There is simply too much competition (i.e. other candidates with degrees), consolidation (i.e. companies merging and the associated redundancy), and restriction (i.e. collapsing of the middle class) for that to change in a meaningful way in the near future (15+ years). Sure, there is the example of some bootcamp graduates having success, but there are also a range of lawsuits indicating that such bootcamps may not be what they say they are.* Even if we presume that they are what they say they are, the majority of the higher paying occupations all either require a degree of some form or the vast majority of those employed with medium/larger employers hold a degree (i.e. nursing, law, medicine, aviation, Information technology, engineering, architecture, etc.).


*New lawsuit alleges online programming boot camp is fooling students (yahoo.com)

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You're forecasting out too far. We just entered a structural shortage in the last few years. First time in several decades. Nobody will be able to tell how it will play out but we do have parallels from history to go from.

The first few yrs of this structure shift was underway and then Covid happened so there are all sorts of oddities and distortions. If anything it could accelerate it. But the trend will remain. Trends just like in any area begin slowly and then ramp up and really run as you get farther along.

Im not arguing against a college degree as the gap in earnings has widened. But there will be some shifts in the requirements or barriers to entry particularly at entry level professional work. Investing in training and development has plummeted since the 90s and accelerated after 08'. If the country rejects contd growth in workers from other countries there is nowhere to fill the gap. You will see more reaching than before during decent times.

Now when hires are limited due to real weakness.. the candidate with the degree will probably be available to fill positions. Mid and Mid/lower companies are not going to be able to have their pick of pristine candidates that they did in the late 2000s. The "top tier" companies are more likely to be able to do what you are describing. But that is a small segment of the eco and not that relevant to normal citizens and grads in the job mkt.

Quinton said:

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Aberzombie1892 said:

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Quinton said:

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Aberzombie1892 said:

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boognish_bear said:

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I think a 4 year college model will slowly start to fade away in the future.

It seems like for most careers much of what you learn in college doesn't directly translate to what you do in your job day to day. Employers/companies will train and teach you and you will learn more on the job as you advance in your career.

I think at some point in the future going through 4 years of college will become an unnecessary step for a successful path for many professional careers.

https://hbr.org/2021/08/you-dont-need-a-college-degree-to-land-a-great-job

"There was more demand for jobs than there were openings, and to be a competitive candidate, you needed a degree to demonstrate your competence.

Today, however, the tables have turned.

Now, companies need more workers than workers need jobs. Instead of weeding people out, businesses are tasked with figuring out how to bring new talent in, and removing the college degree requirement has been an effective way to do so.

Plainly put, not having a college degree should not diminish your chances of securing a good job. This is good news for many young people entering the workforce."

---

The key is to focus on who actually gets the job and not the minimum requirement of the job postings, as a growing amount of employers are dropping the degree requirements from their posting but they are still predominantly hiring college graduates.

---

True.. but over time more and more will be filled with folks that don't meet all of these. It is an early indicator. Anecdotally I've heard (up until the last 6 months that have been a little slower/stagnant) that some companies have "reached" a bit more on hires which is a good thing in my view. First steps.

---

There is simply too much competition (i.e. other candidates with degrees), consolidation (i.e. companies merging and the associated redundancy), and restriction (i.e. collapsing of the middle class) for that to change in a meaningful way in the near future (15+ years). Sure, there is the example of some bootcamp graduates having success, but there are also a range of lawsuits indicating that such bootcamps may not be what they say they are.* Even if we presume that they are what they say they are, the majority of the higher paying occupations all either require a degree of some form or the vast majority of those employed with medium/larger employers hold a degree (i.e. nursing, law, medicine, aviation, Information technology, engineering, architecture, etc.).


*New lawsuit alleges online programming boot camp is fooling students (yahoo.com)

---

You're forecasting out too far. We just entered a structural shortage in the last few years. First time in several decades. Nobody will be able to tell how it will play out but we do have parallels from history to go from.

The first few yrs of this structure shift was underway and then Covid happened so there are all sorts of oddities and distortions. If anything it could accelerate it. But the trend will remain. Trends just like in any area begin slowly and then ramp up and really run as you get farther along.

Im not arguing against a college degree as the gap in earnings has widened. But there will be some shifts in the requirements or barriers to entry particularly at entry level professional work. Investing in training and development has plummeted since the 90s and accelerated after 08'. If the country rejects contd growth in workers from other countries there is nowhere to fill the gap. You will see more reaching than before during decent times.

Now when hires are limited due to real weakness.. the candidate with the degree will probably be available to fill positions. Mid and Mid/lower companies are not going to be able to have their pick of pristine candidates that they did in the late 2000s. The "top tier" companies are more likely to be able to do what you are describing. But that is a small segment of the eco and not that relevant to normal citizens and grads in the job mkt.

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Anything is possible, but the main issue with discussing this topic is that the impact of the dropping of the degree requirement is largely hypothetical in the sense that employers are still predominantly hiring people with degrees for roles that have required a degree for the last 10-20 years. This means that while there may be a benefit to "officially" dropping the degree requirement, but there is not any data available supporting that doing so (1) has had a meaningful positive impact at a macro level or (2) resulted in many more people getting jobs who would not have otherwise gotten those jobs.