vanillabryce said:

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Agreed. But who do you add if the existence of your conference is at stake like many have postulated?

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That's complicated. During the Big 12 expansion process, the staff on Baylor's 247 forum indicated that several P5 conference teams contacted the Big 12 about possibly joining, however, unfortunately, it's impossible to comment further on that without jumping into a wide range of hypotheticals and doing so would mean little without knowing which P5s were interested in the Big 12. That being said, it's worthwhile to note that P5s were interested in potentially joining the Big 12 and that that interest may have played a role in the Big 12 choosing to not expand in 2016 (i.e. long term planning).

Assuming that the Big 12 cannot expand with a P5 and chooses to expand by 2 anyway, the options with the most positives with the least negatives to the existing members of the conference would be Cincinnati and Temple. They may raise eyebrows, but they have the following benefits:
1. 2 top 10 FBS recruiting states
2. 2 top 30 MSA's by population
3. 2 top 36 tv markets
4. 2 programs:
- with 300,000+ living alumni each
- with total enrollments between 39,000-46,000
- that can sustain good basketball
- that can sustain good football
- that do not need to recruit Texas in order to be competitive
- that have acceptable academics
- that have the potential to positively impact the chances of a Big 12 network in the future (if the conference wants it)

At the outset, yes, Temple would become the #3 FBS in PA, but there is little doubt that it could pass Pittsburgh in the in-state hierarchy if given the opportunity to do so, and being the #2 program in the state of PA carries more significance than being the #2 program in CO or UT or the #6 program in TX (if the Big 12 expanded in TX).

Which Big XII expansion process do you mean? The 2011/12 one or the 2016 revisit of the issue? If it was 2011/12 one that would be odd to pick TCU and WVU over P5s at that time. Likewise I suppose it sounds even more odd to say no to P5s and choose to stay at 10 in 16.

PartyBear said:

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Which Big XII expansion process do you mean? The 2011/12 one or the 2016 revisit of the issue? If it was 2011/12 one that would be odd to pick TCU and WVU over P5s at that time. Likewise I suppose it sounds even more odd to say no to P5s and choose to stay at 10 in 16.

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The 2016 one. It's unclear which P5s they were and what they wanted without diving deep into hypotheticals, but they may have had certain requests or offered to join around the time of the next Big 12 contract.

Aberzombie1892 said:

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PartyBear said:

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Which Big XII expansion process do you mean? The 2011/12 one or the 2016 revisit of the issue? If it was 2011/12 one that would be odd to pick TCU and WVU over P5s at that time. Likewise I suppose it sounds even more odd to say no to P5s and choose to stay at 10 in 16.

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The 2016 one. It's unclear which P5s they were and what they wanted without diving deep into hypotheticals, but they may have had certain requests or offered to join around the time of the next Big 12 contract.

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That is interesting to hear. Perhaps there is hope then for expansion and survival in a few years when the current TV deal is up.

I'm of the view still that the XII needs to look eastward if it is going to expand. I think even Cincinatti is more strategic than several of the Pac schools. It is only worth going west if you go all the way west and can get at least 2 of the P5 California schools,

S11 said:

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Temple is a no go. Budget issues, tiny fanbase, and very little attention. Honestly it's like adding UNT or Rice- technically in a big market but low interest and budget.

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I suppose we can agree to disagree, but comparing Temple to U of North Texas and Rice is a little extreme since adding those teams would hurt the conference in terms of recruiting and national relevance and adding Temple, even in a worst case scenario, would not.

Adding any team that doesn't bring in new recruiting grounds - regardless of any other variables - hurts Baylor, Texas Tech, Oklahoma State, Kansas State, WVU and to a slightly lesser extent, TCU. If the Big 12 was seriously considering expansion and was limited to the G5, what two other programs could bring in significant new recruiting grounds, have the potential to become truly relevant in a P5 in both basketball/football, have decent academics and have decent enrollments?

Recruiting is why the SEC dominates, and it has 5 of the top 10 states in its footprint (with 2 more in the top 15) - TX (5 total P5s), LA (1), AL (2), GA (2), and FL (3)* are all ranked in the top 10 for the FBS talent they graduate. What other states are in the top 10? PA (2 P5s) and OH (1 P5), and, looking at the other states in the top 10 (Virginia, North Carolina, and California), there is no other state in the top 10 that the Big 12 could expand into if it was expanding with only G5s plus BYU/Army.

*http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2697990-ranking-the-10-states-with-the-most-talent-in-college-football-right-now#slide0
*https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2016/8/23/12607342/recruits-states-rankings

S11 said:

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Aberzombie1892 said:

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S11 said:

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Temple is a no go. Budget issues, tiny fanbase, and very little attention. Honestly it's like adding UNT or Rice- technically in a big market but low interest and budget.

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I suppose we can agree to disagree, but comparing Temple to U of North Texas and Rice is a little extreme since adding those teams would hurt the conference in terms of recruiting and national relevance and adding Temple, even in a worst case scenario, would not.

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I was using an extreme example to stress a point. Their draw is tiny which limits the other benefits. It's like a league without a TX team adding the two I mentioned.

Quote:

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Adding any team that doesn't bring in new recruiting grounds - regardless of any other variables - hurts Baylor, Texas Tech, Oklahoma State, Kansas State, WVU and to a slightly lesser extent, TCU.

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I'm all for adding new recruiting grounds unless it's an existing P5 or BYU where the tv valuation is simply gonna be higher than AAC or MWC targets.

Quote:

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If the Big 12 was seriously considering expansion and was limited to the G5, what two other programs could bring in significant new recruiting grounds, have the potential to become truly relevant in a P5 in both basketball/football, have decent academics and have decent enrollments?

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Hoops isn't going to determine anything. A committed ad can make a good hire and be decent, see TCU's previously dead program since joining. Besides the Big12 is the top RPI league annually so we don't NEED hoops strength in an addition- it's more of a "nice to have" trait.

Quote:

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Recruiting is why the SEC dominates, and it has 5 of the top 10 states in its footprint (with 2 more in the top 15) - TX (5 total P5s), LA (1), AL (2), GA (2), and FL (3)* are all ranked in the top 10 for the FBS talent they graduate. What other states are in the top 10? PA (2 P5s) and OH (1 P5), and, looking at the other states in the top 10 (Virginia, North Carolina, and California), there is no other state in the top 10 that the Big 12 could expand into if it was expanding with only G5s plus BYU/Army.

*http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2697990-ranking-the-10-states-with-the-most-talent-in-college-football-right-now#slide0
*https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2016/8/23/12607342/recruits-states-rankings

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Adding less value to hoops means that the following make far more sense than Temple in no particular order...

UCF
USF
Cincinnati
Tulane
Memphis
San Diego St
Boise St (Great tv brand compensates for recruiting)
BYU (Great tv brand compensates for recruiting)
UConn (tv draw in hoops and media market compensates for recruiting drain)

Might even be able to argue East Carolina due to facilities, budget, and tidewater recruits up and down the coast of VA, NC, SC.

Temple is way down the list.

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There appears to be a misunderstanding here. Of course a P5 is preferable - although not the Arizona, Colorado, and Utah schools - but there isn't enough information publicly available in order to determine who is in play on that front unless one wants to throw darts at a board.

Of course hoops is secondary, and that is why the emphasis is on football recruiting, which is an area where the Big 12 generally isn't as competitive as it otherwise could be if it had new recruiting grounds added. Honestly, the Big 12 has done well considering it primarily recruits one state that it does not have exclusive access to, but the addition of two new states would be huge. What is important is that the Big 12 does not expand by adding programs that do not add new notable recruiting ground, and that why programs outside the states in the top 10 for recruiting should generally be avoided.

Bear15 said:

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VideoBear said:

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I can't envision Washington and Oregon being left out in the cold. So if we were to try to grab ASU, UA and the Cali schools, TV Networks would probably try to stop it.

Unfortunately, I think a more likely outcome will be a new conference being formed with the strongest members from each, which could leave us out.

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"Could?" We'd be done.

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Most likely, yes. But... Texas would never agree to go unless they had at least some sense of a position of power in the new league. The CA and AZ schools will all have common interests and vote together. Texas would want as many schools around them that will vote with them as possible. I think that is our only shot at getting in if that happens.

Still unlikely any of this happens...

Memphis, Cinn, UCF, UH

ESPN and Fox have spoken and they strongly recommended that the Big12 do not add them.

Wisely the Big12 listened to them. So if you suggest any of those teams, you need a reason why something has changed.

CU feels culturally aligned with the Pac - Corn not so much with the Big10

The Big12 is in a very good position money-wise. A solid #3 ahead of the ACC and Pac . The Big12 & Pac's TV deals both expire in 2024 - I would not expect much until then or just prior

Cincy, UCF, Memphis, and UH as a whole is a horrible 4 pack to add to get to 14. Cincy however alone is a quality addition to the XII especially with at least one other P5 school for reasons already stated. In addition it gives WV a nearby partner and in fact restores an historic opponent for WV going back to the old Eastern independent days . Cincy would actually add more individually to the XII than over half the Pac schools would individually.

I previously heard rumors of WVU blackballing Cincy as the recruiting overlaps.

Cincy was 4-8 with an average home attendance of 27K

PartyBear said:

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Cincy, UCF, Memphis, and UH as a whole is a horrible 4 pack to add to get to 14. Cincy however alone is a quality addition to the XII especially with at least one other P5 school for reasons already stated. In addition it gives WV a nearby partner and in fact restores an historic opponent for WV going back to the old Eastern independent days . Cincy would actually add more individually to the XII than over half the Pac schools would individually.

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This. Houston and Memphis would hurt the conference more than help it. Cincinnati would be huge, and, while Temple makes sense on paper, there at legimate arguments against it.

Don't need four. Just add one or two teams, and don't create divisions. Divisions in college football conferences are a mockery that usually do far more harm than good. Just have the two top teams play each other, each has a list of every-year rivalries, and the rest rotate. That's a system that will work.

Bulking up with lesser schools just adds water to the soup and creates far more potential for division, bickering and instability. It would be worse off than ever before. Keep it centralized, reasonably geographical and competitive. Don't allow a situation where a really weak division drags the league down and makes the title game a dumpster fire.

Keyser Soze said:

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I previously heard rumors of WVU blackballing Cincy as the recruiting overlaps.

Cincy was 4-8 with an average home attendance of 27K

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Cincy is a non-starter. There's absolutely no reason to consider them.

Dia del DougO said:

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Don't need four. Just add one or two teams, and don't create divisions. Divisions in college football conferences are a mockery that usually do far more harm than good. Just have the two top teams play each other, each has a list of every-year rivalries, and the rest rotate. That's a system that will work.

Bulking up with lesser schools just adds water to the soup and creates far more potential for division, bickering and instability. It would be worse off than ever before. Keep it centralized, reasonably geographical and competitive. Don't allow a situation where a really weak division drags the league down and makes the title game a dumpster fire.

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I highly doubt Baylor will be in any of these discussions in 2023 or 2024. Just too much reputation damage and too little $$ draw. Winning football will not create a spot at the table. JMO

Makes sense that UT gets to call the shots in our conf

Gust Avrakotos said:

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Most of you idiots that are rejoicing in the Pac 12's failures are the same morons that continually say that conference strength doesn't matter, bowl wins are irrelevant and also continually root against our top teams when they are playing in the playoffs or in post season tournaments.

This article proves that the Pac 12 is scared ****less about conference perception because the perception of strength and cohesiveness within your conference is everything. Playoff appearances do freaking matter and I'm thrilled OU made it. As long as we keep putting teams in the playoff, the Big XII will be perceived as one of the top conferences.

While we were out f'n losing to Liberty, OU was paving their way to the Rose Bowl and should have beaten Georgia. Thank goodness they made it or that freaking article would have been written about our conference.

It's completely laughable that some of you don't get it.

Gust

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Wha? Can you re-explain butl slower? I was happy but moronically

Russell Gym said:

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Dia del DougO said:

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Don't need four. Just add one or two teams, and don't create divisions. Divisions in college football conferences are a mockery that usually do far more harm than good. Just have the two top teams play each other, each has a list of every-year rivalries, and the rest rotate. That's a system that will work.

Bulking up with lesser schools just adds water to the soup and creates far more potential for division, bickering and instability. It would be worse off than ever before. Keep it centralized, reasonably geographical and competitive. Don't allow a situation where a really weak division drags the league down and makes the title game a dumpster fire.

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I highly doubt Baylor will be in any of these discussions in 2023 or 2024. Just too much reputation damage and too little $$ draw. Winning football will not create a spot at the table. JMO

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We'll have the nicest stadium in the MWC.

The creditors can't repo McLane Stadium...can they???

BUbearinARK said:

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Gust Avrakotos said:

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Most of you idiots that are rejoicing in the Pac 12's failures are the same morons that continually say that conference strength doesn't matter, bowl wins are irrelevant and also continually root against our top teams when they are playing in the playoffs or in post season tournaments.

This article proves that the Pac 12 is scared ****less about conference perception because the perception of strength and cohesiveness within your conference is everything. Playoff appearances do freaking matter and I'm thrilled OU made it. As long as we keep putting teams in the playoff, the Big XII will be perceived as one of the top conferences.

While we were out f'n losing to Liberty, OU was paving their way to the Rose Bowl and should have beaten Georgia. Thank goodness they made it or that freaking article would have been written about our conference.

It's completely laughable that some of you don't get it.

Gust

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Wha? Can you re-explain butl slower? I was happy but moronically

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No because you still wouldn't get it. Come Dec you will still choose to root against OU if they make the playoff because you think that the only thing that matters is Jersey beating Abilene Christian.

Sorry

Gust Avrakotos said:

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BUbearinARK said:

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Gust Avrakotos said:

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Most of you idiots that are rejoicing in the Pac 12's failures are the same morons that continually say that conference strength doesn't matter, bowl wins are irrelevant and also continually root against our top teams when they are playing in the playoffs or in post season tournaments.

This article proves that the Pac 12 is scared ****less about conference perception because the perception of strength and cohesiveness within your conference is everything. Playoff appearances do freaking matter and I'm thrilled OU made it. As long as we keep putting teams in the playoff, the Big XII will be perceived as one of the top conferences.

While we were out f'n losing to Liberty, OU was paving their way to the Rose Bowl and should have beaten Georgia. Thank goodness they made it or that freaking article would have been written about our conference.

It's completely laughable that some of you don't get it.

Gust

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Wha? Can you re-explain butl slower? I was happy but moronically

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No because you still wouldn't get it. Come Dec you will still choose to root against OU if they make the playoff because you think that the only thing that matters is Jersey beating Abilene Christian.

Sorry

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Dang. I dreamt that very thing last night. Woke up mutturing "you got this Matty, virtue wins!" hate it that you get me.

BUbearinARK said:

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Gust Avrakotos said:

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BUbearinARK said:

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Gust Avrakotos said:

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Most of you idiots that are rejoicing in the Pac 12's failures are the same morons that continually say that conference strength doesn't matter, bowl wins are irrelevant and also continually root against our top teams when they are playing in the playoffs or in post season tournaments.

This article proves that the Pac 12 is scared ****less about conference perception because the perception of strength and cohesiveness within your conference is everything. Playoff appearances do freaking matter and I'm thrilled OU made it. As long as we keep putting teams in the playoff, the Big XII will be perceived as one of the top conferences.

While we were out f'n losing to Liberty, OU was paving their way to the Rose Bowl and should have beaten Georgia. Thank goodness they made it or that freaking article would have been written about our conference.

It's completely laughable that some of you don't get it.

Gust

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Wha? Can you re-explain butl slower? I was happy but moronically

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No because you still wouldn't get it. Come Dec you will still choose to root against OU if they make the playoff because you think that the only thing that matters is Jersey beating Abilene Christian.

Sorry

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Dang. I dreamt that very thing last night. Woke up mutturing "you got this Matty, virtue wins!" hate it that you get me.

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I'm sure it's frustrating. But know that you aren't alone. The combination code for the lock for most users on this board is 1...2...3...4

Russell Gym said:

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Dia del DougO said:

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Don't need four. Just add one or two teams, and don't create divisions. Divisions in college football conferences are a mockery that usually do far more harm than good. Just have the two top teams play each other, each has a list of every-year rivalries, and the rest rotate. That's a system that will work.

Bulking up with lesser schools just adds water to the soup and creates far more potential for division, bickering and instability. It would be worse off than ever before. Keep it centralized, reasonably geographical and competitive. Don't allow a situation where a really weak division drags the league down and makes the title game a dumpster fire.

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I highly doubt Baylor will be in any of these discussions in 2023 or 2024. Just too much reputation damage and too little $$ draw. Winning football will not create a spot at the table. JMO

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Scandal hurts but losing to Liberty and 1-11 makes it near impossible. Sports forget scandals more quickly than pathetic play on the field.

Hopefully the Mara's come calling.

Especially when there are people like yourself who dwell on it incessantly.

Keyser Soze said:

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Especially when there are people like yourself who dwell on it incessantly.

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The question is, if the Big 12 imploded when it's contract ended and all of the other P5s expanded by 2, would Baylor be picked up by anyone else?

Virtually certainly not.

Shame on me for focusing on results, Keyser.

I just can't bring myself to hand out orange slices and fruit by the foot for effort. We have enough people like yourself that will come in behind me and put a band aid and some bactine on it. I balance out your tolerance for mediocrity.

Aberzombie1892 said:

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Keyser Soze said:

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Especially when there are people like yourself who dwell on it incessantly.

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The question is, if the Big 12 imploded when it's contract ended and all of the other P5s expanded by 2, would Baylor be picked up by anyone else?

Virtually certainly not.

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Not with liberty and 1-11. So our only choice is to pull for OU and hope we can be in the top 3 of conferences.

Unfortunately, these so called " I hate conference pride" imbeciles on this board aren't smart enough to understand that.

Gust Avrakotos said:

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Shame on me for focusing on results, Keyser.

I just can't bring myself to hand out orange slices and fruit by the foot for effort. We have enough people like yourself that will come in behind me and put a band aid and some bactine on it. I balance out your tolerance for mediocrity.

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I was all for firing Kevin Steele .... didn't see the value of bringing up the UNLV game daily then or 1-11 today, key word there is daily .... no one is forgetting

Keyser Soze said:

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Gust Avrakotos said:

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Shame on me for focusing on results, Keyser.

I just can't bring myself to hand out orange slices and fruit by the foot for effort. We have enough people like yourself that will come in behind me and put a band aid and some bactine on it. I balance out your tolerance for mediocrity.

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I was all for firing Kevin Steele .... didn't see the value of bringing up the UNLV game daily then or 1-11 today, key word there is daily .... no one is forgetting

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Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

Aberzombie1892 said:

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Keyser Soze said:

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Especially when there are people like yourself who dwell on it incessantly.

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The question is, if the Big 12 imploded when it's contract ended and all of the other P5s expanded by 2, would Baylor be picked up by anyone else?

Virtually certainly not.

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Agree strongly with that, don't think one season in one sport will move the needle much one way or the other.

Also not part of the Eeyore crowd that thinks Big12 implosion is a given.

Keyser Soze said:

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Aberzombie1892 said:

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Keyser Soze said:

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Especially when there are people like yourself who dwell on it incessantly.

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The question is, if the Big 12 imploded when it's contract ended and all of the other P5s expanded by 2, would Baylor be picked up by anyone else?

Virtually certainly not.

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Agree strongly with that, don't think one season in one sport will move the needle much one way or the other.

Also not part of the Eeyore crowd that thinks Big12 implosion is a given.

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The pathetic leadership of our conference and our university aren't going to do a thing (proactively) about the implosion of the conference whether it is factual or not. So hoping for OU to win might not be a bad idea. Our fans don't seem to get that.

I agree with you there Gus - OU winning would do a lot.

So would Texas looking like a real blue blood rather than a historic blue blood. The National perception is better with a top 10 Texas & OU.

On a side note - really hard for me not to enjoy a little Texas fail time to time.

Teams will be chosen in realignment for $$ reasons, nothing more. If a financial blue-blood is not winning, it will still make the cut.

Once the exclusive club is set, some of those teams will have to lose, it's just math. Everyone can't be 11-2 in an exclusive league of blue-bloods. But they can still bring in TV $$.