Central Texas Growth. - Waco

15,689 Views | 87 Replies | Last: 3 mo ago by Yogi
baylorguy09
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I read today that Temple grew the most from 2020-2023 - growing by 10,000. In that same period, Waco grew just over 4,000, Killeen by 6,000, and Belton 2,000.

I think the lack of housing inventory is hurting Waco currently. With the new development officer coming to Waco with a pretty decent track record (at least on paper), Waco should have a pretty bright future ahead.

I just moved out of Austin, currently staying in Temple with family (and also where we have lived for 23 years) to make the commute easier, but I can't wait to live full time in Waco. Temple infrastructure is behind the times and local leadership seems clueless about keeping up with the growth. The development has caused nothing but gridlock during morning/evening/weekend commutes.

With the centralized location to Austin/Dallas/Houston access, there really is no excuse to not see Waco explode with growth of people trying to escape the overpriced city life.
BaylorGuy314
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It's not housing inventory, per se. We are sitting at about 4 months of inventory. That's better (for a buyer) than it's been in a long time. The problem for Waco vs Temple/Belton is not housing but reasonably priced housing.

Temple/Belton are very developer-friendly and builder-friendly. Waco is absolutely against new construction except in the inner city. The city (and I'm painting with broad brushes here) has spent MANY tens of millions of dollars trying to encourage infill development while pushing enormous costs/hurdles/burdens on anything outside of the core. There is a strong culture against development not only in Waco but in other areas like Woodway and Lorena.

Numerous national homebuilders have come into Waco and quickly left because the Waco inspectors are little Hitlers with massive egos that want Waco to be San Francisco or Austin. Combined with impact fees, excessive inspections, slow inspection times, poor communication and delays, it just makes it unnecessarily difficult. Throw in abnormally high development costs, land costs, etc, and you end up spending more on a house in Waco than you would in Temple/Belton.

With Temple/Belton being closer to North Austin (high growth), good schools, and reasonably priced housing, I'm not surprised it's growing faster.
BaylorHistory
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Arbitrary city lines are fairly useless when looking at this and I think it's better to look at the MSA.

Waco +9,083 (Total:304,000) +3%
Temple/Killeen/Belton +25,966 (Total:501,000) +5%

It doesn't change the overall point, but I think that's the better way of looking at the stats.
CTbruin
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Measure the growth in McLennan Co., not the city.There is a lot going on outside the city.
RightRevBear
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I agree with you on the MSA in this situation but not all MSA 's are alike. Jackson, Mississippi's MSA is larger geographically than Waco and Temple-Killeen MSA's put together. Jackson's MSA covers 8 counties. Its population looks bigger than both on paper, but its population density is much lower than either.
PartyBear
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A good website is https://www.statsamerica.org. Look at the Big Radius tool.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong here but google it.
beerman
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I'm not here to argue, but how did Jackson's MSA get to 8 counties. Is every county that touches the Hinds line being counted? That's a huge stretch in my opinion.

Jackson is definitely an example, probably the best in the deep south, of what poor city management can do to create mass exodus of not only residents, but businesses from what once was a beautiful and welcoming city. I still love the area, kills me to see so many moving out to the burbs.
RightRevBear
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I could not have said it better. I lived in the Jackson area for years, and I have family still there. They can't do the simple basic functions of a city. They can't supply safe drinking water. Crime is so bad that the state expanded the capital district and hired more capitol police to serve a large portion of downtown. The judicial system there is riddled with corruption. With Jackson dying the overall population of the area is dying. There is still a flight to the suburbs, but many people are just leaving it all together.
Eleven-League Grant
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BaylorGuy314 said:

Numerous national homebuilders have come into Waco and quickly left because the Waco inspectors are little Hitlers with massive egos that want Waco to be San Francisco or Austin. Combined with impact fees, excessive inspections, slow inspection times, poor communication and delays, it just makes it unnecessarily difficult.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing that.

One of my friends has developed subdivisions in Central Texas (not nationally) and has told me the very same thing about a good sized area he developed in Waco.

As I don't do that sort of work, I wondered if he might be exaggerating or perhaps basing his statement on purely anecdotal evidence, or on an isolated incident he encountered. I guess he knew what he was talking about.

Of course, the 'little Hilters with massive egos' problem you mentioned can be found elsewhere. Even in the case where folks get involved with homeowner's associations and the like and let the 'power' go to their heads.

It's unfortunate that more folks with, shall we say, 'leveler' heads, generally have no interest at all in serving or working in government.

And no, I'm not saying there are no wise and dedicated public servants. I figured I'd better clarify that before Hell rained down on me.
RightRevBear
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BaylorGuy314 said:

It's not housing inventory, per se. We are sitting at about 4 months of inventory. That's better (for a buyer) than it's been in a long time. The problem for Waco vs Temple/Belton is not housing but reasonably priced housing.

Temple/Belton are very developer-friendly and builder-friendly. Waco is absolutely against new construction except in the inner city. The city (and I'm painting with broad brushes here) has spent MANY tens of millions of dollars trying to encourage infill development while pushing enormous costs/hurdles/burdens on anything outside of the core. There is a strong culture against development not only in Waco but in other areas like Woodway and Lorena.

Numerous national homebuilders have come into Waco and quickly left because the Waco inspectors are little Hitlers with massive egos that want Waco to be San Francisco or Austin. Combined with impact fees, excessive inspections, slow inspection times, poor communication and delays, it just makes it unnecessarily difficult. Throw in abnormally high development costs, land costs, etc, and you end up spending more on a house in Waco than you would in Temple/Belton.

With Temple/Belton being closer to North Austin (high growth), good schools, and reasonably priced housing, I'm not surprised it's growing faster.



There are several national home builder subdivisions in Waco's suburbs. Also, I really don't think it is a horrible thing for them to make them do it right. I worked construction in high school and saw a lot of shoddy workmanship. I can't tell you how many times I had to fix crappy drywall or deal with walls that weren't straight.

The work done by a lot of home builders is shoddy, especially national home builders. Here are links to articles about some of the lawsuits.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2023/09/20/homeowners-strike-161-million-deal-with-dr-horton-over-claims-of-faulty-construction/?outputType=amp

https://www.kadn.com/news/local/news-15-investigates-homeowners-say-d-r-horton-left-them-stuck-in-hell/article_e2de89be-cb80-11ee-acb4-27a930317d0c.html

https://www.kxan.com/investigations/records-lawsuits-reveal-foundation-problems-plague-massive-austin-development/amp/

https://www.builderonline.com/building/regulation-policy/pulte-charged-13-6-million-in-defect-suit_o
4th and Inches
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RightRevBear said:

BaylorGuy314 said:

It's not housing inventory, per se. We are sitting at about 4 months of inventory. That's better (for a buyer) than it's been in a long time. The problem for Waco vs Temple/Belton is not housing but reasonably priced housing.

Temple/Belton are very developer-friendly and builder-friendly. Waco is absolutely against new construction except in the inner city. The city (and I'm painting with broad brushes here) has spent MANY tens of millions of dollars trying to encourage infill development while pushing enormous costs/hurdles/burdens on anything outside of the core. There is a strong culture against development not only in Waco but in other areas like Woodway and Lorena.

Numerous national homebuilders have come into Waco and quickly left because the Waco inspectors are little Hitlers with massive egos that want Waco to be San Francisco or Austin. Combined with impact fees, excessive inspections, slow inspection times, poor communication and delays, it just makes it unnecessarily difficult. Throw in abnormally high development costs, land costs, etc, and you end up spending more on a house in Waco than you would in Temple/Belton.

With Temple/Belton being closer to North Austin (high growth), good schools, and reasonably priced housing, I'm not surprised it's growing faster.



There are several national home builder subdivisions in Waco's suburbs. Also, I really don't think it is a horrible thing for them to make them do it right. I worked construction in high school and saw a lot of shoddy workmanship. I can't tell you how many times I had to fix crappy drywall or deal with walls that weren't straight.

The work done by a lot of home builders is shoddy, especially national home builders. Here are links to articles about some of the lawsuits.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2023/09/20/homeowners-strike-161-million-deal-with-dr-horton-over-claims-of-faulty-construction/?outputType=amp

https://www.kadn.com/news/local/news-15-investigates-homeowners-say-d-r-horton-left-them-stuck-in-hell/article_e2de89be-cb80-11ee-acb4-27a930317d0c.html

https://www.kxan.com/investigations/records-lawsuits-reveal-foundation-problems-plague-massive-austin-development/amp/

https://www.builderonline.com/building/regulation-policy/pulte-charged-13-6-million-in-defect-suit_o


Dont worry, these big home builder projects would continue to disappoint with building standards and remember most of them have a different building standards as set by the PUD approved by city planning.

These guys are using thermoply for sheeting and nailing hardy to the studs.. good luck with that long term
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Localbear
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I started with one builder for our home in Woodway and luckily switched to The Alford Company before major work was started. Woodway inspector actually asked who the framer was the Alford's used on this job because it had been a long time since he has seen such high quality work and our house is really complex.

Inspector also said he never asks, but when people do work that good, they need a pat on the back because there is a lot of really bad work going on right now. I have been really happy with the Alford brothers if you are looking for a builder.
Robert Wilson
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BaylorHistory said:

Arbitrary city lines are fairly useless when looking at this and I think it's better to look at the MSA.

Waco +9,083 (Total:304,000) +3%
Temple/Killeen/Belton +25,966 (Total:501,000) +5%

It doesn't change the overall point, but I think that's the better way of looking at the stats.
I get it, but not sure how useful it is to combine west Bell County in with east Bell County for that purpose. 2 different worlds driven by different factors. Just a straight east Bell County comparison to Waco MSA would be interesting.
Bear Doc
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Localbear said:

I started with one builder for our home in Woodway and luckily switched to The Alford Company before major work was started. Woodway inspector actually asked who the framer was the Alford's used on this job because it had been a long time since he has seen such high quality work and our house is really complex.

Inspector also said he never asks, but when people do work that good, they need a pat on the back because there is a lot of really bad work going on right now. I have been really happy with the Alford brothers if you are looking for a builder.
They built our house 11 years ago now and we have had zero structural problems. They build a great house.
BaylorGuy314
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RightRevBear said:

BaylorGuy314 said:

It's not housing inventory, per se. We are sitting at about 4 months of inventory. That's better (for a buyer) than it's been in a long time. The problem for Waco vs Temple/Belton is not housing but reasonably priced housing.

Temple/Belton are very developer-friendly and builder-friendly. Waco is absolutely against new construction except in the inner city. The city (and I'm painting with broad brushes here) has spent MANY tens of millions of dollars trying to encourage infill development while pushing enormous costs/hurdles/burdens on anything outside of the core. There is a strong culture against development not only in Waco but in other areas like Woodway and Lorena.

Numerous national homebuilders have come into Waco and quickly left because the Waco inspectors are little Hitlers with massive egos that want Waco to be San Francisco or Austin. Combined with impact fees, excessive inspections, slow inspection times, poor communication and delays, it just makes it unnecessarily difficult. Throw in abnormally high development costs, land costs, etc, and you end up spending more on a house in Waco than you would in Temple/Belton.

With Temple/Belton being closer to North Austin (high growth), good schools, and reasonably priced housing, I'm not surprised it's growing faster.



There are several national home builder subdivisions in Waco's suburbs. Also, I really don't think it is a horrible thing for them to make them do it right. I worked construction in high school and saw a lot of shoddy workmanship. I can't tell you how many times I had to fix crappy drywall or deal with walls that weren't straight.

The work done by a lot of home builders is shoddy, especially national home builders. Here are links to articles about some of the lawsuits.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2023/09/20/homeowners-strike-161-million-deal-with-dr-horton-over-claims-of-faulty-construction/?outputType=amp

https://www.kadn.com/news/local/news-15-investigates-homeowners-say-d-r-horton-left-them-stuck-in-hell/article_e2de89be-cb80-11ee-acb4-27a930317d0c.html

https://www.kxan.com/investigations/records-lawsuits-reveal-foundation-problems-plague-massive-austin-development/amp/

https://www.builderonline.com/building/regulation-policy/pulte-charged-13-6-million-in-defect-suit_o

First of all, let me say that there is a pandemic of crappy homebuilders. As others have mentioned, many are so focused on cost at expense of quality that you pay 20-30% less but end up with a much crappier home at the end of it. Using thermo-ply for sheathing, subpar materials, and the cheapest labor is a real problem in my industry. Good news for me is that it's easy for me to sell against those slipshod products if people can afford a slightly higher price.

I'm 100% ok with inspectors holding builders accountable for "doing it right." The problem with Waco isn't that, however. It's generally poor processes, poor communication, egos, etc.

Story time -

I failed a final CO inspection recently. The only item on the list? The sticker in the electrical panel wasn't held on by two pieces of tape. The inspector wanted a piece at the top and a piece at the bottom to better secure it. Is that code? No. But that's fine - I get it. I agree that it needed to be better secured even though it's not "code."

Before his truck was even out of the development, we had it rectified. Sent him a photo showing that it was now secured. He wouldn't accept that, charged us for a failed CO so we had to pay a fee to reinspect, then took a week to get back out there to actually reinspect. That's just a waste of everyone's time and money.

I'm talking about failing frame inspections because the SHGC on the window stickers is .01 off what was on the projected energy report. (Which is not a material difference in any way.) This creates unnecessary delays and costs in construction.

I'm talking about not liking how one of several hundred brick ties are attached, not communicating which one or giving us any guidance so we have to go out and spend an hour starting at a wall trying to guess what he doesn't like and then hoping we fixed the right one only for them to take a week to get back out there and re-inspect.

I'm talking about delaying a slab pour because a few chairs on the rebar aren't stood up how he'd like and it delaying the slab pour for a week.

I'm talking about passing a house all the way to CO and then pointing out a small electrical discrepancy and making you rip open walls to replace wiring that isn't wrong (per code) when you've already passed the electrical inspection - twice (rough and final).

You get the idea.

There is only one "national" homebuilder (DR Horton) and two regional home builders in Waco (Stylecraft and John Houston) that have survived longer than a couple of years. Lennar, Omega, KB all come to mind as builders that came and quickly left because the inspection processes were so bad. DR Horton and Stylecraft have only made it this long because they got into Waco before the inspections became such a crazy house and they developed a profitable business model that it was worth adapting to Waco rather than leave. But others coming in fresh haven't had luck. There is a new one coming soon out of DFW and it'll be interesting to see how they fare.

For Waco to really grow on the housing front, this has to be figured out. Frankly, as a builder locally, the stupidity that is Waco protects me in many ways from a rash of crappy builders coming in. But I also build a product that not everyone can afford.
RightRevBear
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Thank you for your response that gives more details. The examples you gave seem like they are being anal more than making sure the house is safe and well constructed.

How is it in the suburbs like Hewitt, Robinson, China Spring, etc.
Liteitup
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When Park Meadows was being put in off Ritchie, I got to know the job foreman/supervisor for the development company that put in the streets etc. He said Waco was impossible to deal with. Everything said above about timing and reinspects, plus they'd change requirements mid stream. More than one inspector and each had his own pet requirement and more than once they contradicted the other inspectors. Lots of delays. Not sure, but I don't think they do jobs in Waco anymore.
BaylorGuy314
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RightRevBear said:

Thank you for your response that gives more details. The examples you gave seem like they are being anal more than making sure the house is safe and well constructed.

How is it in the suburbs like Hewitt, Robinson, China Spring, etc.

It's really just a cultural issue. For example, the issues above could have been a "Hey builder, I'm going to pass you but make a note in my file. Send me a picture that you rectified whatever I pointed out or I'll hold you up on the next stage."

That way, there is accountability for the builder to get whatever it is done, you can avoid the inspector coming out to the job site to look at something stupid, and it saves time and money. However, I believe most inspectors are proud of the fact that they can control things, which is where the ego comes in.

Here's the rub- go to some cities (especially the large ones) and the inspectors are either (A) overextended, meaning they can't possibly handle all the inspections they are supposed to in a timely manner, (B) lazy or (C) corrupt. Those conditions mean that really crappy construction can and does (frequently) occur, which is why there are so many horror stories. And those big builders don't really care - they just want to get to the end and get their money as fast as possible. Waco has fought against that which is good - but it swings way, way too far the wrong direction.

Hewitt is great with inspections. They follow the code but will do a "correct and proceed" process on inconsequential items (like those mentioned above) whereby you can go ahead and keep going but they ask you to send proof that you corrected. Because the overall community is small and there aren't that many inspectors, they know who is following up and who's not. That doesn't translate as well to large markets where inspectors are spread more thinly and you may have a different inspector for each stage.

China Spring is Waco so you have the same issues there. McGregor & Lorena outsource inspections to third parties with mixed results.

At the end of the day, the inspector's job is to make sure the homebuilders are following code and ordinance. I think a lot of the big builders put a lot of pressure on the inspectors by making them be the quality control aspect instead of doing that themselves and that creates a lot of friction between builders/inspectors. However, for those that are doing it right (or certainly trying), it can become a maddening process.
Yogi
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Waco is already the third largest metro in Central Texas and will soon fall behind Bryan/ College Station as well.

It's a nice town and all, but it is also old, sluggish, and complacent.

Waco is still competing with Temple/Killeen for manufacturing and distribution opportunities, but T/K clearly is going to get that edge going forward.

Also, Temple's proximity to Austin makes it more attractive to Big Tech and other high paying jobs.

It's not all Waco's fault, but I think Waco's heyday has passed. It will still remain a quant college/ tourist destination, however, between Texas' more populated areas.
"Smarter than the Average Bear."
Coyote Bear
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Yogi said:

Waco is already the third smallest metro in Central Texas and will soon fall behind Bryan/ College Station as well.

It's a nice town and all, but it is also old, sluggish, and complacent.

Waco is still competing with Temple/Killeen for manufacturing and distribution opportunities, but T/K clearly is going to get that edge going forward.

Also, Temple's proximity to Austin makes it more attractive to Big Tech and other high paying jobs.

It's not all Waco's fault, but I think Waco's heyday has passed. It will still remain a quant college/ tourist destination, however, between Texas' more populated areas.


This is ridiculous. Lol.
4th and Inches
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Yogi said:

Waco is already the third smallest metro in Central Texas and will soon fall behind Bryan/ College Station as well.

It's a nice town and all, but it is also old, sluggish, and complacent.

Waco is still competing with Temple/Killeen for manufacturing and distribution opportunities, but T/K clearly is going to get that edge going forward.

Also, Temple's proximity to Austin makes it more attractive to Big Tech and other high paying jobs.

It's not all Waco's fault, but I think Waco's heyday has passed. It will still remain a quant college/ tourist destination, however, between Texas' more populated areas.
um.. yeah

You posting while drunk?
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Edmond Bear
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Yogi said:

Waco is already the third smallest metro in Central Texas and will soon fall behind Bryan/ College Station as well.

It's a nice town and all, but it is also old, sluggish, and complacent.

Waco is still competing with Temple/Killeen for manufacturing and distribution opportunities, but T/K clearly is going to get that edge going forward.

Also, Temple's proximity to Austin makes it more attractive to Big Tech and other high paying jobs.

It's not all Waco's fault, but I think Waco's heyday has passed. It will still remain a quant college/ tourist destination, however, between Texas' more populated areas.


Not sure you've been to Waco in the last 5 years.
RightRevBear
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Yogi said:

Waco is already the third smallest metro in Central Texas and will soon fall behind Bryan/ College Station as well.

It's a nice town and all, but it is also old, sluggish, and complacent.

Waco is still competing with Temple/Killeen for manufacturing and distribution opportunities, but T/K clearly is going to get that edge going forward.

Also, Temple's proximity to Austin makes it more attractive to Big Tech and other high paying jobs.

It's not all Waco's fault, but I think Waco's heyday has passed. It will still remain a quant college/ tourist destination, however, between Texas' more populated areas.


I moved to Waco a little over 1.5 years ago after living in Temple for 13 years. I have friends and family still in Temple. In fact, I am going to be spending my Memorial Day helping one of them do tornado cleanup at his house.

This whole area is booming. I think that Temple's growth has been good for Waco and vice versa. With that said if you think Waco is not booming you are crazy. Waco is growing like crazy. If you want to see what a city that is in decline looks like, go look at Jackson, MS.

One of Waco and Temple/Killeen's biggest obstacles to attracting white collar/tech jobs is lack of a major airport. Large corporations need to have easy access to good air service. I don't know what the best course of action would be to solve this if it is even solvable. Temple, Killeen, Waco could build a shared airport, but I doubt that would fix the problem.
hill02
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The lack of a major airport is indeed a big corporate problem and makes it tough to interview out of state folks as well as host any non regional conferences or build any sort of travel team based in Waco. Zoom has helped as has Uber/ride share but it is definitely a challenge. We have had to build out Dallas and Houston hubs to cover those gaps.

You are also limited in the candidate pool for six figure jobs because you are nearly always talking about a relocation since there aren't many you can hire that already live in Waco.

On the plus side Baylor does create a lot of interest for alumni wanting to move to Waco (as does Harris Creek for 20 somethings believe it or not). People also love the 15 min or less commutes and the size for raising a family.

I actually love the pace of growth for Waco. We are growing but not at the pace of Austin. A steady, managed growth makes the most sense.

We have a downtown to be proud of and major athletics in our town. We have very little traffic, lots of great school and church options, and solid parks. It is hard not to be excited about Waco's present and future.
PartyBear
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I think actually we do have a traffic issues developing.
BUDOS
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I don't deny that as I only return to my hometown a couple times a year to visit family. So, where do you foresee traffic issues developing?

I live close to Springfield, MO, and travel through Tulsa, Oklahoma City, DFW on the way to Waco. When here, I do find areas of heavy traffic, but not like any I just mentioned. Like most of us I am pretty good at criticizing all levels of government; however, compared to other places I have lived over the decades, Waco is far from anywhere close to the bottom half. (Not saying one can find fault, as I know some have by reading past posts.)
BUDOS80
PartyBear
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No including 35 but 340, 84 headed from Waco to western part of the metro area, Hewitt Drive and VM drive.
cowboycwr
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The airport issue has been discussed on here on several threads before but here are my thoughts on it:

The time for Waco/Temple/Killeen to have done a regional airport around Moody or so has passed. No way (IMO) that it could work now with everything that has been invested into the airports in current locations.

Waco would have done best to partner with TSTC and build there to have a longer runway, more businesses, etc.

Finally, and this isn't a Waco issue but an airline issue, there has to be more than one or two flights a day, the cost difference has to be marginal or at leas marginal enough to offset parking cost at DFW/Austin, drive time, etc.
cowboycwr
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Traffic-

In addition to the areas already mentioned:

- the 6 and 84/franklin merger/intersection. which will get worse for construction before it gets better.

Franklin and new road

340/lakeshore and 35 area.

Edmond Bear
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cowboycwr said:

The airport issue has been discussed on here on several threads before but here are my thoughts on it:

The time for Waco/Temple/Killeen to have done a regional airport around Moody or so has passed. No way (IMO) that it could work now with everything that has been invested into the airports in current locations.

Waco would have done best to partner with TSTC and build there to have a longer runway, more businesses, etc.

Finally, and this isn't a Waco issue but an airline issue, there has to be more than one or two flights a day, the cost difference has to be marginal or at leas marginal enough to offset parking cost at DFW/Austin, drive time, etc.

A larger airport in Waco is still going to have fairly limited direct flights and limited on how many times a day a direct flight happens. 3/4 of the time, you will still end up connecting through somewhere.

If the issue is growth, it seems like it would be alot cheaper to subsidize a luxury coach to pickup/dropoff every two hours from Waco to DFW, Love Field, Bergstrom and Bush. That would be alot more convenient than the flights out of Waco now.

Von Lane is having alot of success with the luxury coach model. Waco would just need to repurpose the concept to suit its own needs.
Funky Town Bear
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cowboycwr said:

The airport issue has been discussed on here on several threads before but here are my thoughts on it:

The time for Waco/Temple/Killeen to have done a regional airport around Moody or so has passed. No way (IMO) that it could work now with everything that has been invested into the airports in current locations.

Waco would have done best to partner with TSTC and build there to have a longer runway, more businesses, etc.

Finally, and this isn't a Waco issue but an airline issue, there has to be more than one or two flights a day, the cost difference has to be marginal or at leas marginal enough to offset parking cost at DFW/Austin, drive time, etc.

The question is simple. What incentive do the airlines have to do that? It's been proven many times that the extra flights are currently not financially viable.
Localbear
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Starting in November I will be flying out of Waco to XNA(Northwest Arkansas), at minimum, every other week. So I will give a review of Waco airport after about 6 months.


As far as traffic in Waco it really isn't bad compared to other cities(Mexico City, Columbus) and towns(Bentonville, Prosper) I have lived in. It has so many north l/south and east/west streets. Hewitt/Woodway is the one that isn't prepared for expansion outside its borders since it only has a couple of major roads to get traffic through.
Lund Vernquist
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I haven't spent too much time in smaller cities but traffic in Waco is a complete breeze compared to what I've experienced in Tyler.
whitetrash
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Lund Vernquist said:

I haven't spent too much time in smaller cities but traffic in Waco is a complete breeze compared to what I've experienced in Tyler.
Tyler and Temple are similar in that most if not all retail/restaurants in town are confined to only 2 or 3 major streets. In Tyler, it's Loop 323 (which isn't even a freeway) or S Broadway. In Temple, it's S 31st, W Adams, or Loop 363 (which is some semblance of a freeway). Both towns have choking traffic on those and not a whole lot on other streets.
cowboycwr
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Edmond Bear said:

cowboycwr said:

The airport issue has been discussed on here on several threads before but here are my thoughts on it:

The time for Waco/Temple/Killeen to have done a regional airport around Moody or so has passed. No way (IMO) that it could work now with everything that has been invested into the airports in current locations.

Waco would have done best to partner with TSTC and build there to have a longer runway, more businesses, etc.

Finally, and this isn't a Waco issue but an airline issue, there has to be more than one or two flights a day, the cost difference has to be marginal or at leas marginal enough to offset parking cost at DFW/Austin, drive time, etc.

A larger airport in Waco is still going to have fairly limited direct flights and limited on how many times a day a direct flight happens. 3/4 of the time, you will still end up connecting through somewhere.

If the issue is growth, it seems like it would be alot cheaper to subsidize a luxury coach to pickup/dropoff every two hours from Waco to DFW, Love Field, Bergstrom and Bush. That would be alot more convenient than the flights out of Waco now.

Von Lane is having alot of success with the luxury coach model. Waco would just need to repurpose the concept to suit its own needs.
Oh I agree a larger airport NOW is tough. I meant it probably would have done better if it had been established decades ago at TSTC. They could have had a longer history of more flights connecting to other airports, and maybe even more options for connecting. Right now it is only DFW and as far as I know it was always DFW and Houston at one time but no where else.
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