Johnny Bear said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Johnny Bear said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Johnny Bear said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Johnny Bear said:

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bear2be2 said:

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The decision has been made and it was the right one.

People made these exact same arguments against downsizing the football stadium. By the time it was built and opened, everyone realized it was the correct decision.

The same will be true of the new basketball facility. One people see and visit it, the narrative will be how nice it is, not how small is.

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The downsize in football was barely 10%. From the capacity estimates I'm hearing, this downsize is around 30% or more. Not exactly apples to apples.

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We also filled a much larger percentage of Floyd Casey's 50,000.

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We did? I seem to recall an infamous tarp that was deployed in one of the end zones during many of the last years of FCS and even with that we usually struggled to fill the remaining seats unless the opponent brought at least 25% or more of the crowd. Had we employed similar thinking on the football side, McLane would be about the same size as SMU's rinky dink stadium.

Again, I get the need to downsize like I got the need to downsize in football - but I still think we're going down too much.

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Of course we did.

These were our average attendance figures the last eight years at Floyd Casey ...

2013 -- 45,958 (91.9 percent)
2012 -- 41,194 (82.3 percent)
2011 -- 41,368 (82.7 percent)
2010 -- 40,043 (80.1 percent)
2009 -- 36,306 (72.6 percent)
2008 -- 34,124 (68.2 percent)
2007 -- 34,378 (68.8 percent)
2006 -- 37,080 (74.1 percent)

Compare that to the last eight years at the Ferrell Center (with a much higher level of success, mind you) ...

2021-22 -- 8,439 (84.4 percent)
2020-21 -- COVID
2019-20 -- 8,178 (81.8 percent)
2018-19 -- 6,218 (62.2 percent)
2017-18 -- 6,140 (61.4 percent)
2016-17-- 6,812 (68.1 percent)
2015-16 -- 6,410 (64.1 percent)
2014-15 -- 6,918 (69.2 percent)

Texans support football way better than they do basketball. This shouldn't be a surprise. And this is hardly and apples to apples comparison, too. Those football numbers were coming out of one of the worst stretches in P5 college history. Those basketball numbers were all during our greatest run in program history. If you go back farther, the basketball numbers look worse and worse.

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Per those numbers, the last 2 seasons of unrestricted attendance at the Ferrell ('19-'20 and '21-'22) we are averaging over 8K, which is 1K or more over what is being reported as the new arena capacity and I don't care about the "actual butts in seats" argument - if the seats aren't there, you can't sell tickets for them. I also don't care that it happened during our all time greatest men's bball run. Unless we think the program and the corresponding interest in it is heading south over the course of the next decade or so - and I certainly hope we aren't - why're we dropping capacity well below what we're presently averaging? Again, per those numbers, In downsizing football, we built McLane to accommodate roughly what we were averaging during the end of the FCS years that included things like RGIII's Heisman season and our first B12 football title. Why not similarly do the same with bball?

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Because those last two seasons are massive outliers. We couldn't even average 7,000 per game before putting our first Final Four caliber team on the floor -- and that was with multiple Elite Eight appearances. If it takes a Final Four caliber team to fill your gym, you're not going to fill your gym very often.

It makes way more sense to build a more reasonably sized facility based on broader data and create some demand for those seats than repeat the exact same mistake we made with the Ferrell Center.

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You could similarly call the last FCS season - when we won our first B12 title - along with RGIII's Heisman year "massive outliers" as well. I'm glad we didn't have that kind of defeatist thinking with McLane and build it to only hold 35K.

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That would have been foolish, as we had averaged at least 34,378 fans per year from 2006-09 (coming off the Steele and Morris years) and topped 40,000 every year after. 45,000 made perfect since.

Just as 7,500 does for the basketball arena. As a percentage of our new venue's capacity, we drew an almost identical number in football our last four years at Floyd Casey (82 percent) as we have in the last four applicable years at the Ferrell Center (83.3 percent) -- and that's with record numbers two of the past three years that are unlikely to be sustained based on 20 years of Drew-era data.

A friend commented last week that the currently empty seats in the season ticket holders' sector will be empty regardless of arena capacity. Do you think that's a valid statement?

canoso said:

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A friend commented last week that the currently empty seats in the season ticket holders' sector will be empty regardless of arena capacity. Do you think that's a valid statement?

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DIng ding ding!!! It won't be the folks with courtside season tickets who show up only 4-5 times a year who will be shut out, it will the last 2,500 individual game buyers who won't have an opportunity to buy unless the season ticket holder puts them on stubhub.

canoso said:

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A friend commented last week that the currently empty seats in the season ticket holders' sector will be empty regardless of arena capacity. Do you think that's a valid statement?

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Yes if those season ticket holders don't sell the game tickets to the games they aren't going to. If they put them up for sale, they will go quickly.

historian said:

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More like 7,000. I think there may be a few extra seats somewhere but the 500 may come from SRO for big time games. Just guessing here.

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I wonder if it's "capacity," rather than "seating capacity." Some venues are known for counting every ticket taker, concessions worker, custodial staff, player, coach and operations staff, press and broadcaster, etc. in "capacity."

cowboycwr said:

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To me I think the downsizing makes sense. Way too many games with empty seats all the time at the FC.

What strikes me the most about the new arena is that it looks small to have even 7500 seats. Like it is going to be crowded/small seats for the size of the building. It just does not seem like a large enough building for that many seats when I drive by.

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Perhaps it is like houses where you only see the slab foundation as it is being built. To me such a site looks like a small house, but once it is built and you are inside it, it seems bigger than what you thought seeing only the slab.

Good question.

We needed to downsize. Was in college with Drew coaching and was always a bit letdown attending basketball games. My first conference game we played a ranked Iowa St team and FC was 50% full at best, I don't even think they announced ticket sales. One of my last games was against OU and it was 65% maybe? OU was a weekend and ISU was a weekday, which leads to my next point.

Weekday games are tough to make. If you live in DFW and went to the Kansas game you'd be getting home after midnight on a Monday. I'm young with no kids, so would do it(were I not 11 hours away), but older folks with kids? Football games are a whole weekend affair. There's tailgating, meeting up with old friends the night before, etc. How many people tailgated for Kansas this Monday? We sellout FC once a year at best.

As others have mentioned Baylor is in Texas. Not North Carolina or Indiana. It's also in Waco which as mentioned is smaller and has a high poverty rate. Waco Steve is trying to pay his electric bill or feed his kids or his kids have their own basketball game taking place.

The new arena will be tighter and put fans closer to the court. This should make it louder and more intiment. Weekend games should all actually look full and be loud. Even big weeknight games can now be loud and lively. It's a little easier yelling your voice out in a mostly full arena than a half full arena.

Grew up attending Vanderbilt and Tennessee games. Vandy has never been on Baylor's level yet when they're a tourney team 14k Memorial Gym is packed and rocking. Same with Thompson-Boling in Knoxville, which seats 20k. The state of Texas just doesn't support numbers like that for basketball.

Texas is about football. Not having more room in the new BB Arena for the few games that would have sold out with 10,000 fans will cost Baylor $1,000's and $1,000's in ticket sales.

U Tenn is also has a student pop >32,000...that's a tad bigger than Baylor. Additionally, Baylor is generally 55-60% female...they don't follow MBB as much as guys do. Demographics impact attendance.

No one's discussed this..but isn't it weird that we'll be playing half the season in one arena and half the other?

I guess plans are to have it ready by start of conference but that would seem to be a competitive disadvantage.

Stefano DiMera said:

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No one's discussed this..but isn't it weird that we'll be playing half the season in one arena and half the other?

I guess plans are to have it ready by start of conference but that would seem to be a competitive disadvantage.

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The Cowboys did that back when they opened Texas Stadium in 1971. It wasn't ready until mid-October so they played their first few games at the Cotton Bowl.

The first event held at Texas Stadium was a Billy Graham crusade in late September. Stadium itself was finished, but the parking lots and the paving at the entrances was not. It rained about 3-4 inches that night, and they learned for the first time that the roof did not protect the stands from the rain but instead it poured over the edge in sheets. Had to walk through ankle-deep mud trying to exit.

A smaller newer arena hopefully increases demand and we can avg 6,000 fans a season instead of 5,500. We only sellout like one game a year not even 3 or 4. We are a mid sized private school that will never fill a 10k seat basketball arena besides once a year. I'd rather have an improved lively atmosphere and lose a few grand than overbuild and have the same issues.

atomicblast said:

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7,500 is tiny. Should have made it 8,000.

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8,000 is still tiny as well.

I wish we had the brand and the ability to consistently fill a 15,000 seat arena, but even Goliath Texas couldn't accomplish that - in Austin no less.

Also, I think with ticket prices going up and television access improved, the trend we're going to see in the future is more and more people wanting to watch from home.

So, 8,000 is probably our sweet spot, but 7,500 (Just 500 less) is not unreasonable under the circumstances.

Mitch Henessey said:

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The Drum in Austin sat 16,540 for basketball games. Moody seats 10,000. UT downsized by way more than we did, and their enrollment is 53,000 students in a city of nearly one million people, and a metro area of 2.2 million. Not one person on this board has expressed that they made the wrong decision in downsizing. Texans simply don't care about college basketball, generally.

Anyone kvetching about the new arena's size has no clue what they're talking about.

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Not exactly true.

Moody actually has 15,000 seats and is convertible from 15,000 seats to 10,000 seats.




Notice the tacky movie screens covering the upper deck.

Yogi said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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The Drum in Austin sat 16,540 for basketball games. Moody seats 10,000. UT downsized by way more than we did, and their enrollment is 53,000 students in a city of nearly one million people, and a metro area of 2.2 million. Not one person on this board has expressed that they made the wrong decision in downsizing. Texans simply don't care about college basketball, generally.

Anyone kvetching about the new arena's size has no clue what they're talking about.

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Not exactly true.

Moody actually has 15,000 seats and is convertible from 15,000 seats to 10,000 seats.




Notice the tacky movie screens covering the upper deck.

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I sat on the 2nd row of the upper deck for Jimmy Buffett last summer. At the time, I was trying to figure out how there were 5,000 more seats for a concert than for a basketball game. Then when the season started I realized they just cover the upper deck with a tarp.

I'm guessing it's part of UT's management contract with Live Nation (Live Nation controls the arena and leases it back to UT only on gamedays) that UT doesn't lease the upper deck. Maybe someday if UT thinks they need the extra capacity it's already there.

PS: the upper deck at Moody was strange. The concourse is at the very top of the upper deck, and the steps down were pretty steep (thankfully, I didn't notice too many margarita-saturated fans stumbling on them).

whitetrash said:

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Yogi said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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The Drum in Austin sat 16,540 for basketball games. Moody seats 10,000. UT downsized by way more than we did, and their enrollment is 53,000 students in a city of nearly one million people, and a metro area of 2.2 million. Not one person on this board has expressed that they made the wrong decision in downsizing. Texans simply don't care about college basketball, generally.

Anyone kvetching about the new arena's size has no clue what they're talking about.

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Not exactly true.

Moody actually has 15,000 seats and is convertible from 15,000 seats to 10,000 seats.




Notice the tacky movie screens covering the upper deck.

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I sat on the 2nd row of the upper deck for Jimmy Buffett last summer. At the time, I was trying to figure out how there were 5,000 more seats for a concert than for a basketball game. Then when the season started I realized they just cover the upper deck with a tarp.

I'm guessing it's part of UT's management contract with Live Nation (Live Nation controls the arena and leases it back to UT only on gamedays) that UT doesn't lease the upper deck. Maybe someday if UT thinks they need the extra capacity it's already there.

PS: the upper deck at Moody was strange. The concourse is at the very top of the upper deck, and the steps down were pretty steep (thankfully, I didn't notice too many margarita-saturated fans stumbling on them).

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A tarp????? It doesn't have any green peaking out from under the orange does it???

cowboycwr said:

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whitetrash said:

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Yogi said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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The Drum in Austin sat 16,540 for basketball games. Moody seats 10,000. UT downsized by way more than we did, and their enrollment is 53,000 students in a city of nearly one million people, and a metro area of 2.2 million. Not one person on this board has expressed that they made the wrong decision in downsizing. Texans simply don't care about college basketball, generally.

Anyone kvetching about the new arena's size has no clue what they're talking about.

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Not exactly true.

Moody actually has 15,000 seats and is convertible from 15,000 seats to 10,000 seats.




Notice the tacky movie screens covering the upper deck.

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I sat on the 2nd row of the upper deck for Jimmy Buffett last summer. At the time, I was trying to figure out how there were 5,000 more seats for a concert than for a basketball game. Then when the season started I realized they just cover the upper deck with a tarp.

I'm guessing it's part of UT's management contract with Live Nation (Live Nation controls the arena and leases it back to UT only on gamedays) that UT doesn't lease the upper deck. Maybe someday if UT thinks they need the extra capacity it's already there.

PS: the upper deck at Moody was strange. The concourse is at the very top of the upper deck, and the steps down were pretty steep (thankfully, I didn't notice too many margarita-saturated fans stumbling on them).

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A tarp????? It doesn't have any green peaking out from under the orange does it???

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Stanton sold it to UT?

ScottS said:

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cowboycwr said:

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whitetrash said:

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Yogi said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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The Drum in Austin sat 16,540 for basketball games. Moody seats 10,000. UT downsized by way more than we did, and their enrollment is 53,000 students in a city of nearly one million people, and a metro area of 2.2 million. Not one person on this board has expressed that they made the wrong decision in downsizing. Texans simply don't care about college basketball, generally.

Anyone kvetching about the new arena's size has no clue what they're talking about.

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Not exactly true.

Moody actually has 15,000 seats and is convertible from 15,000 seats to 10,000 seats.




Notice the tacky movie screens covering the upper deck.

---

I sat on the 2nd row of the upper deck for Jimmy Buffett last summer. At the time, I was trying to figure out how there were 5,000 more seats for a concert than for a basketball game. Then when the season started I realized they just cover the upper deck with a tarp.

I'm guessing it's part of UT's management contract with Live Nation (Live Nation controls the arena and leases it back to UT only on gamedays) that UT doesn't lease the upper deck. Maybe someday if UT thinks they need the extra capacity it's already there.

PS: the upper deck at Moody was strange. The concourse is at the very top of the upper deck, and the steps down were pretty steep (thankfully, I didn't notice too many margarita-saturated fans stumbling on them).

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A tarp????? It doesn't have any green peaking out from under the orange does it???

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Stanton sold it to UT?

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Perhaps... I always heard it was "disposed of" and maybe that is how.....

Iron Claw said:

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Am I the only one that thinks it looks really small? Every time I drive past I want it to look/be bigger. Maybe when the facade is up it will.

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It would be nice to have a 100,000 person football stadium and a 20,000 person basketball arena.

But these are simply unrealistic for a small private school in todays world.

u.t. can't even fill their basketball arena...and a&m can't fill their football stadium on a regular basis.

And these are 55,000+ person public/state colleges we are talking about.

Smaller is better in the modern era.

Drew wins. Drew gets what he wants. Drew wants a small arena.

Give the man a freaking small arena and be thankful he hasn't bolted to a more prestigious program. I'm gonna enjoy great basketball in small arenas while we still have it. Once he's gone, there's no guarantee we can ever have the same level of success. Just look at the women's basketball team.

boykin_spaniel said:

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A smaller newer arena hopefully increases demand and we can avg 6,000 fans a season instead of 5,500. We only sellout like one game a year not even 3 or 4. We are a mid sized private school that will never fill a 10k seat basketball arena besides once a year. I'd rather have an improved lively atmosphere and lose a few grand than overbuild and have the same issues.

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Actually we sold out 3 last year, with a 4th game a near sellout (over 10,000). Every single conference game last year and this year has been over 7500 (supposed new capacity next year) tix sold.

Conference games and premium non conference games are going to be tough to get tix, which is great and by design. Average attendance will be well over 6,000. We have not sold less than 6000 tix to a game - even the non conference throwaway ones in a few years. I wouldn't be surprised if Foster is sold out for the entire season next year.

Yogi said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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The Drum in Austin sat 16,540 for basketball games. Moody seats 10,000. UT downsized by way more than we did, and their enrollment is 53,000 students in a city of nearly one million people, and a metro area of 2.2 million. Not one person on this board has expressed that they made the wrong decision in downsizing. Texans simply don't care about college basketball, generally.

Anyone kvetching about the new arena's size has no clue what they're talking about.

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Not exactly true.

Moody actually has 15,000 seats and is convertible from 15,000 seats to 10,000 seats.




Notice the tacky movie screens covering the upper deck.

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15k for concerts, 10k for basketball games. We're talking basketball here.

Tickets is different than butts in seats but agree new smaller arena should increase demand and hopefully get actual butts in seats to cheer on the bears

Some of us will be unable to go to games in Foster because the tickets are so pricey.

For the individual game buyer, it'll be a tough get for any decent game, but will also box out opposing fans.

I would monitor how they do the standing room seats and when they go on sale. They may decide to release those around 72 hours before each game, on a game-by-game basis, for example. But even SRO won't be a bad "seat" in the new building.

boykin_spaniel said:

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Tickets is different than butts in seats but agree new smaller arena should increase demand and hopefully get actual butts in seats to cheer on the bears

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I agree. Season seat holders will be encouraged to use the return program on any games they can't attend and get those tix returned to the box office and in the hands of a BU fan.