Point to where Bear2 blamed this loss on recruiting one and done players. He didn't, you're making **** up

Crawfoso1973 said:

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We didn't get blown out on the road vs. KU because Scott Drew recruits one-and-done players. After every loss you find a way to circle back to that axe to grind. Those types of games happen when you play in the best conference in America. It's unrealistic to expect us to go undefeated in the big 12 gauntlet.

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Who said they expected us to go undefeated in the B12?

Fair. The defense has been terrible. I guess we can debate do the costs outweigh the benefits. It is a lot easier to get stops and grind out a game then to stay scorching hot and outscore teams.

We dropped two of those in early conference already as there are many variables with the wild offensive shootouts. It doesn't work consistently unless you have ample nba talent. If we had a mid / high level nba point on the roster that could get to the rim consistently we might be able to get by with it this year specifically, but we don't.

Our front court outside of Bridges is also bad defensively. Jon will take longer as he can't stick with guys on the perimeter and can't yet explode to meet them in help at the rim (when our guards get blown by). Again, wild he has even made it back so not even close to any fault there. Its the whole roster. If we had our typical defenders they could cover more for a young player who isn't there yet defensively.

I do know KG has the tools to be a solid defender. LJ can definitely be more sound on that end but will probably be more limited. Have to find something that works. It isn't like this is a team filled with low level athletes. We aren't as explosive as prior years but there is enough to field a semblance of a defense.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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We didn't get blown out on the road vs. KU because Scott Drew recruits one-and-done players. After every loss you find a way to circle back to that axe to grind. Those types of games happen when you play in the best conference in America. It's unrealistic to expect us to go undefeated in the big 12 gauntlet.

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Why are you talking about going undefeated in Big 12 play? No one has suggested we should have. But it's not an unfair expectation that this year's team, which was being erroneously touted as the most talented in Baylor's history, be in the mix at the end of the regular season for the Big 12 title, and at 9-5 in league play with four tough games remaining, that likely won't happen.

Is that the end of the world? No. But people can be disappointed that we've taken such a large step backward on on the defensive end because we would be the odds-on Big 12 favorite (and potentially a national title favorite) with just a little bit of defense this year.

But the above just goes to underscore how you continue to misrepresent the arguments others are making, which is that we're a good, Sweet 16-caliber team but will struggle to be more than that playing the level of defense we have all year. We've gone from being a high-floor, high-ceiling team the last three years to a high-floor team with a much lower ceiling because any four or five-minute scoring swoon will result in a double-digit deficit that we can't come back from.

I personally think Quinton hit the nail on the head with his comment about it being much easier to grind out defensive games as compared to staying scorching hot from deep all game just to get a W. We're built in a way that if we aren't hitting 25 foot jump shots or long contested 2s we struggle. Our 2 pt shooting % is just not good. I keep saying it but a big or a true 4 who can give you 10-12 ppg and create his own shots (when needed) would make this team virtually impossible to defend offensively.

IowaBear said:

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. Our 2 pt shooting % is just not good.

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Do you just make up stats in your head?

We have a 52% 2 pt. shooting %. Kansas is 53% and Texas is almost 55%. We are 3rd in the Big 12. I'd say we're pretty good.

Thought I saw somewhere we were bottom 2 in the B12 in 2 point shooting percentage. Maybe it was defensively. And no I don't just make stats up in my head. Btw our team FG % is 45% so I'm not sure where you're getting 52%

IowaBear said:

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Btw our team FG % is 45% so I'm not sure where you're getting 52%

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45% is the total FG%. We shoot 36% from 3 (lead the Big 12) and 52% from 2. It's called math.

Thanks for the math lesson.

Dude, for someone that appears to love Baylor sports as much you do, it might do you some good to do some research on the team and our opponents before posting from the hip so much.

My main point remains the same despite having the 2pt % wrong. We rely heavily on long jump shots and are bad defensively. That's why we're prone to long droughts where teams go on huge runs. We've seen it multiple times this year. Having a guy in the post who you could go to stem a run would be massively beneficial. But we don't have a guy who can get you an easy bucket in the paint when it's needed. Not going to have a pissing match about "my love for BU" I think everyone has gotten a stat or 2 wrong in their life

We don't build our offense around low post scoring, we are built around guards. Our posts are pick and roll bigs who set high screens on offense 20 feet from the basket I agree we should score more in the paint but from our guards penetrating for layups. When Self changed up the defense that took away our ability to penetrate when they locked down Flagler and Key 30 feet from the bucket. These next few games teams are likely to follow that defensive formula so our staff will find a way to adjust. We have the best staff in America and they always do.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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We don't build our offense around low post scoring, we are built around guards. Our posts are pick and roll bigs who set high screens on offense 20 feet from the basket I agree we should score more in the paint but from our guards penetrating for layups. When Self changed up the defense that took away our ability to penetrate when they locked down Flagler and Key 30 feet from the bucket.

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It's interesting that Self made the adjustment to stop switching in the second half and completely shut down our penetration. I've often wondered why we don't do the same thing, particularly given this particular team's defensive deficiencies.

We end up with way too many bigs on littles on the perimeter and littles on bigs in the paint, and both result in layups or dunks more often than not.

100% I wondered the same thing. In the past that worked with Vital and a healthy EJ who could guard positions 1-5. Now that isn't the case with EJ extremely limited in his mobility, and Flo who has regressed noticeably/

Crawfoso1973 said:

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100% I wondered the same thing. In the past that worked with Vital and a healthy EJ who could guard positions 1-5. Now that isn't the case with EJ extremely limited in his mobility, and Flo who has regressed noticeably/

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Flo's never been able to guard guards on the perimeter. I don't think he's regressed defensively so much as our guards are much, much worse at stopping the drive, so he's constantly in no-win help situations. He can stay on his man and watch the driver lay it in or he can help off and watch the driver dump it off to his man for a dunk. Neither option is good, and it all starts with our guards' inability to keep their men in front of them.

Agree our guards put Flo in a bad spot and agreed Flo would never switch out an island, but even in the paint he is a step slow compared to a couple years ago.

bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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This thread turning into a *****fest about Keyonte George is both incredibly disappointing and wholly predictable. George is not even top 3 things that are fatal flaws on this roster.

Our basketball fans are so terrible.

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Keyonte George's defense -- or lack thereof -- is pretty high on the list of issues on this team actually. So is LJ Cryer's.

Those two players' inability to stay in front of their man and tendency to get lost off the ball, makes us extremely susceptible to the dribble drive, and our need to help in those situations makes us extremely vulnerable to backdoor cuts. It's why any team with decent attacking guards eats our lunch and loads up on paint points.

Keyonte and LJ are both supremely talented offensive players. But they frequently give back what they score on the other end of the floor.

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It's a problem, but it's not solely on Keyonte. I don't know that anyone is that interested in what I think, but I'd rank the biggest flaws on the team as follows:

1) Mismanagement of roster. It almost feels dirty to call it "mismanagement," since the biggest problem is that we thought Sochan was a two-and-done player, when he actually turned out to be a one-and-done. Plug him into this roster, and we're the odds-on favorite to win it all this year. Couple that with the decision to let Matt Mayer walk and attempt to replace him with Caleb Lohner, and we have two wing spots that are essentially empty.

2) Recruiting misses. I'm not talking about Loveday and Turner. No one plays their #11 and #12 players on the bench anyway, although I guess you could make the argument you'd rather have those be young players with upside. I'm more talking about Lohner and Bonner. They can play at this level, but they don't add anything offensively. When you have either of them in the game with one of our bigs, it's basically 3 on 5 at the offensive end of the floor.

3) Transition defense. This is where actually gameplay comes in. Yes, George is part of the problem, but we are a total sieve when anyone gets the ball in transition against us. Bridges is probably our only good defender in the open court. George and Flagler are pretty good individual defenders, but neither are good help defenders, and Cryer is a minus defender, period.

4) Too dependent on undersized guards. We essentially have one guy who can get buckets that stands over 6'5", and it's Bridges. Any team that can contest our three guards on the perimeter is going to make it a tough night.

5) The ball stops too often. We play a lot of iso ball, which is ok, because any of Cryer, Flagler, and George can beat probably 90% of college level defenders off the bounce, but we're so, so, so much better when we penetrate and dish or move the ball from side to side. We fall in love with the heat check threes off the dribble way too often, and it's maddening, given how beautifully we've seen this team move the ball.

Those are my top five issues with this team, and only two of them are tangentially related to Keyonte George. And we're still a legit Top 10 team. That's remarkable, and a testament to what Scott Drew has built here. Like I said in the game thread, win out and what happened in the second half on Saturday doesn't matter. It's a tough task, but we knew winning in Lawrence was the least likely outcome of any game this season going in.

Great analysis. Agreed with all your points except #4. Our backcourt rotation really isn't small by college standards. Key and Love are both well above average size for college guards.

What I find interesting is the relationship between your #3 and your #5. When we play hero ball and take those heat-check 3s, or when our offense stagnates and we throw up desperation shots to beat the shot clock, that leads to long rebounds and easy transition buckets going the other way. For this team in particular, our best defense is to make sure the other team is taking the ball out of the net or at the very least not getting easy opportunities in transition off of live-ball turnovers or long rebounds.

Crawfoso1973 said:

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Great analysis. Agreed with all your points except #4. Our backcourt rotation really isn't small by college standards. Key and Love are both well above average size for college guards.

What I find interesting is the relationship between your #3 and your #5. When we play hero ball and take those heat-check 3s, or when our offense stagnates and we throw up desperation shots to beat the shot clock, that leads to long rebounds and easy transition buckets going the other way. For this team in particular, our best defense is to make sure the other team is taking the ball out of the net or at the very least not getting easy opportunities in transition off of live-ball turnovers or long rebounds.

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I almost mentioned Langston in my notes, but opted not to. We've been talking about him for nearly three years, and it's crazy to think that he's still just a freshman. He's got great size, but he's still too inconsistent right now. He'll have one really, really solid game, and then follow it up with two games where he's a non-factor.

Totally agree with your point about points #3 and #5 being related. If we can move the ball and share it better the last two weeks here, it will do wonders to make our defense look better. Even a Top 50 showing on defense from here on out puts us in Elite 8/Final Four shouting distance.

Perfectly crafted response. There is a contingent of fans everywhere (not limited to Baylor) that can't tolerate anything negative being said about their team, even if what is said is grounded in fact. Fans who dare to be realistic are called "the worst fans ever."

Guitarbiscuit said:

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Perfectly crafted response. There is a contingent of fans everywhere (not limited to Baylor) that can't tolerate anything negative being said about their team, even if what is said is grounded in fact. Fans who dare to be realistic are called "the worst fans ever."

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Everyone here is a Scott Drew fan. We're not questioning his coaching ability when we point out the obvious flaws of one of his teams. I get tired of the reflexive defense response to attacks that don't even exist.

But this team has obvious flaws on the defensive end that have been there all year. And those flaws limit how good this team can be in March.

People can ignore that or they can accept reality. The only thing that changes is how surprised you are when we get bounced relatively early in the tournament.

Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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This thread turning into a *****fest about Keyonte George is both incredibly disappointing and wholly predictable. George is not even top 3 things that are fatal flaws on this roster.

Our basketball fans are so terrible.

---

Keyonte George's defense -- or lack thereof -- is pretty high on the list of issues on this team actually. So is LJ Cryer's.

Those two players' inability to stay in front of their man and tendency to get lost off the ball, makes us extremely susceptible to the dribble drive, and our need to help in those situations makes us extremely vulnerable to backdoor cuts. It's why any team with decent attacking guards eats our lunch and loads up on paint points.

Keyonte and LJ are both supremely talented offensive players. But they frequently give back what they score on the other end of the floor.

---

It's a problem, but it's not solely on Keyonte. I don't know that anyone is that interested in what I think, but I'd rank the biggest flaws on the team as follows:

1) Mismanagement of roster. It almost feels dirty to call it "mismanagement," since the biggest problem is that we thought Sochan was a two-and-done player, when he actually turned out to be a one-and-done. Plug him into this roster, and we're the odds-on favorite to win it all this year. Couple that with the decision to let Matt Mayer walk and attempt to replace him with Caleb Lohner, and we have two wing spots that are essentially empty.

2) Recruiting misses. I'm not talking about Loveday and Turner. No one plays their #11 and #12 players on the bench anyway, although I guess you could make the argument you'd rather have those be young players with upside. I'm more talking about Lohner and Bonner. They can play at this level, but they don't add anything offensively. When you have either of them in the game with one of our bigs, it's basically 3 on 5 at the offensive end of the floor.

3) Transition defense. This is where actually gameplay comes in. Yes, George is part of the problem, but we are a total sieve when anyone gets the ball in transition against us. Bridges is probably our only good defender in the open court. George and Flagler are pretty good individual defenders, but neither are good help defenders, and Cryer is a minus defender, period.

4) Too dependent on undersized guards. We essentially have one guy who can get buckets that stands over 6'5", and it's Bridges. Any team that can contest our three guards on the perimeter is going to make it a tough night.

5) The ball stops too often. We play a lot of iso ball, which is ok, because any of Cryer, Flagler, and George can beat probably 90% of college level defenders off the bounce, but we're so, so, so much better when we penetrate and dish or move the ball from side to side. We fall in love with the heat check threes off the dribble way too often, and it's maddening, given how beautifully we've seen this team move the ball.

Those are my top five issues with this team, and only two of them are tangentially related to Keyonte George. And we're still a legit Top 10 team. That's remarkable, and a testament to what Scott Drew has built here. Like I said in the game thread, win out and what happened in the second half on Saturday doesn't matter. It's a tough task, but we knew winning in Lawrence was the least likely outcome of any game this season going in.

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Lohner is a miss. But I have to totally disagree about the Mayer comment. Everyone knows I can be critical of Drew, But when he offered Lohner a scholarship no one thought Mayer was pulling out of the Combine and returning to College. Why would they.

BUCANDOIT82 said:

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Mitch Henessey said:

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bear2be2 said:

---

Mitch Henessey said:

---

This thread turning into a *****fest about Keyonte George is both incredibly disappointing and wholly predictable. George is not even top 3 things that are fatal flaws on this roster.

Our basketball fans are so terrible.

---

Keyonte George's defense -- or lack thereof -- is pretty high on the list of issues on this team actually. So is LJ Cryer's.

Those two players' inability to stay in front of their man and tendency to get lost off the ball, makes us extremely susceptible to the dribble drive, and our need to help in those situations makes us extremely vulnerable to backdoor cuts. It's why any team with decent attacking guards eats our lunch and loads up on paint points.

Keyonte and LJ are both supremely talented offensive players. But they frequently give back what they score on the other end of the floor.

---

It's a problem, but it's not solely on Keyonte. I don't know that anyone is that interested in what I think, but I'd rank the biggest flaws on the team as follows:

1) Mismanagement of roster. It almost feels dirty to call it "mismanagement," since the biggest problem is that we thought Sochan was a two-and-done player, when he actually turned out to be a one-and-done. Plug him into this roster, and we're the odds-on favorite to win it all this year. Couple that with the decision to let Matt Mayer walk and attempt to replace him with Caleb Lohner, and we have two wing spots that are essentially empty.

2) Recruiting misses. I'm not talking about Loveday and Turner. No one plays their #11 and #12 players on the bench anyway, although I guess you could make the argument you'd rather have those be young players with upside. I'm more talking about Lohner and Bonner. They can play at this level, but they don't add anything offensively. When you have either of them in the game with one of our bigs, it's basically 3 on 5 at the offensive end of the floor.

3) Transition defense. This is where actually gameplay comes in. Yes, George is part of the problem, but we are a total sieve when anyone gets the ball in transition against us. Bridges is probably our only good defender in the open court. George and Flagler are pretty good individual defenders, but neither are good help defenders, and Cryer is a minus defender, period.

4) Too dependent on undersized guards. We essentially have one guy who can get buckets that stands over 6'5", and it's Bridges. Any team that can contest our three guards on the perimeter is going to make it a tough night.

5) The ball stops too often. We play a lot of iso ball, which is ok, because any of Cryer, Flagler, and George can beat probably 90% of college level defenders off the bounce, but we're so, so, so much better when we penetrate and dish or move the ball from side to side. We fall in love with the heat check threes off the dribble way too often, and it's maddening, given how beautifully we've seen this team move the ball.

Those are my top five issues with this team, and only two of them are tangentially related to Keyonte George. And we're still a legit Top 10 team. That's remarkable, and a testament to what Scott Drew has built here. Like I said in the game thread, win out and what happened in the second half on Saturday doesn't matter. It's a tough task, but we knew winning in Lawrence was the least likely outcome of any game this season going in.

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Lohner is a miss. But I have to totally disagree about the Mayer comment. Everyone knows I can be critical of Drew, But when he offered Lohner a scholarship no one thought Mayer was pulling out of the Combine and returning to College. Why would they.

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Have you seen him play at Illinois? He's toying with his food and shouldn't be at this level,

bear2be2 said:

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Guitarbiscuit said:

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Perfectly crafted response. There is a contingent of fans everywhere (not limited to Baylor) that can't tolerate anything negative being said about their team, even if what is said is grounded in fact. Fans who dare to be realistic are called "the worst fans ever."

---

Everyone here is a Scott Drew fan. We're not questioning his coaching ability when we point out the obvious flaws of one of his teams. I get tired of the reflexive defense response to attacks that don't even exist.

But this team has obvious flaws on the defensive end that have been there all year. And those flaws limit how good this team can be in March.

People can ignore that or they can accept reality. The only thing that changes is how surprised you are when we get bounced relatively early in the tournament.

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Nobody is ignoring reality or this team's flaws. Obviously we are a flawed defensive team.