Bench Option(s) at the 4 Position

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Johnny Bear
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9:44a, 2/22/23
Based on what has happened thus far, is Lohner truly our best rotation option off the bench at the 4 position? I know EJ is still very understandably limited, but I'm wondering if he or even Josh O. Could possibly play the position for limited minutes with Flo at the 5 when Bridges needs a breather(?). Is Turner still so bad that he's a worse option off the bench than Lohner?

Before the flamers start responding, I certainly still respect and believe in CSD's judgment, but it's hard to believe that a highly nationally ranked team like ours doesn't have a better rotation option than a guy that's a non-scoring turnover machine on the offensive end and other than being an okay rebounder, not much better on the defensive end.
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IowaBear
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9:52a, 2/22/23
I wonder if Drew would consider giving Lohners minutes to Josh O.And what I mean by that is playing John and Josh at the same time. Obviously we can't play Josh and Flo together but we could play John and Josh together as John can stretch the floor. That feels like a better option than Lohner
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parch
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10:05a, 2/22/23
We're screwed, in essence. Or, in lighter parlance, we'll have to dance with the ones we have, and it's going to be a real herky-jerky dance from here until the end of the season in the paint.

Lohner gives you garbage. Weak-kneed defense, zero offense, scared of the paint, unable to go up strong on either end around the rim. If he was giving us 7/6 like he did at BYU he'd at least be serviceable. As is he's a waste of minutes. I'm actually amazed at how bad he's been.

Bridges isn't a 4, doesn't like to crash, wants to take floaters, pull-ups and 3's more than he wants to bang. I thought he'd be a nice option as an outside-in slasher but he's not even really that. He doesn't want contact and certainly isn't comfortable in the paint.

Josh O is more of a college 5 than a 4, and not a great one at that. Not a ton of agility, real scary in the open court, not who you want running pick-and-pops. He's there to soak up fouls, pull down a couple boards and give the starters a breather. Not better for much more than that.

What we're missing is the Mark Vital, Rico Gathers, Royce O'Neal role guys, rangy bulldogs underneath who have agility, mobility and competence on both ends. We have no one even approaching that skill set right now with those easy repeatable buckets, and it's going to cost us next month when the finessed range game fails us, which it will at some point.
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Crawfoso1973
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10:10a, 2/22/23
I said this on another thread, I think we would be better off playing smaller with Bonner at backup 4 for the 10 or 12 minutes Bridges needs to rest. It is far from ideal but almost anything would be a better alternative than Lohner.
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Johnny Bear
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In reply to Crawfoso1973 • 10:54a, 2/22/23
Crawfoso1973 said:
I said this on another thread, I think we would be better off playing smaller with Bonner at backup 4 for the 10 or 12 minutes Bridges needs to rest. It is far from ideal but almost anything would be a better alternative than Lohner.

IMO in that scenario Bonner would be just a smaller, slightly quicker version of Lohner on the offensive end (i.e. a turnover prone non-scorer) and although at times he's been a relatively speaking serviceable defender on the defensive end, who would be the rebounders in that lineup besides Flo or EJ? I agree it's hard to see a worse option than Lohner, but it's also hard to see how that option would be materially better.
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Crawfoso1973
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In reply to Johnny Bear • 11:39a, 2/22/23
You are probably right LOL, although Bonner has shown he can hit the 3 when left wide open. And while not a great defender, he at least will try to mix it up some. Either way we are screwed LOL.
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BluesBear
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In reply to Crawfoso1973 • 12:34p, 2/22/23
Crawfoso1973 said:
I said this on another thread, I think we would be better off playing smaller with Bonner at backup 4 for the 10 or 12 minutes Bridges needs to rest. It is far from ideal but almost anything would be a better alternative than Lohner.
Someone send Drew a few tapes of the Chicago Bulls with Rodman....."Listen Lohner, you are going in for 4 minutes, you need to be a beast on the boards, punishing anyone that brings the ball inside the paint...outside of that, don't **** it up. No shooting and NO DRIBBLING"...
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Quinton
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In reply to Johnny Bear • 2:52p, 2/22/23
We don't have them (options). It's just that simple.

Turner and Loveday just are not high D1 players. Biggest recent misses by Drew. Just happened to be at the same time. Forward at Illinois wasn't a talent miss but a fit miss. That's 3 and hard to get past with Sochan leaving early and losing Mayer.

Josh O can be developed but isn't ready yet. Jon is limited and Lohner was a big miss too. Can't play the 4 guards for extended periods together unless you want to give up 120+ points.

Best is play 3 guards and then split among Lohner and Josh for short periods to give the 3 serviceable wing/bigs rest. When Lohner or Josh are in it would ideally be alongside Jon to keep them in line but he can't move laterally yet so just compounds the issue.

No good options but this is the best one. In limited cases you could run Flag, Lj, Key, and Love all at once but it's a huge risk for multiple reasons.
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Quinton
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In reply to Crawfoso1973 • 2:57p, 2/22/23
It seemed that way because last year the shot was bad. But he can't consistently hit 3s unfortunately. He is sub 30% last I checked and it is probably way worse if you cut out the low level Ooc teams he excels against.

I still think he can spell guys occasionally but the hit to offense is huge. The staff is hamstrung by the roster but even still you should be able to field a borderline to 60-50 defense.. not 88 or whatever
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Fre3dombear
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6:22p, 2/22/23
We really just need to hit more layups. Would change things a lot
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Johnny Bear
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In reply to Fre3dombear • 6:44p, 2/22/23
Fre3dombear said:
We really just need to hit more layups. Would change things a lot

Good point. The missed layups, tip ins, and point blank jump shots alone would've been enough to beat KSU in Manhattan.
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BUCANDOIT82
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7:04p, 2/22/23
I have discussed this on other threads. We need to go to the 4 guard lineup and we need to give JTT minutes at the 4. It's not complicated.
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BUCANDOIT82
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In reply to parch • 7:11p, 2/22/23
parch said:
We're screwed, in essence. Or, in lighter parlance, we'll have to dance with the ones we have, and it's going to be a real herky-jerky dance from here until the end of the season in the paint.

Lohner gives you garbage. Weak-kneed defense, zero offense, scared of the paint, unable to go up strong on either end around the rim. If he was giving us 7/6 like he did at BYU he'd at least be serviceable. As is he's a waste of minutes. I'm actually amazed at how bad he's been.

Bridges isn't a 4, doesn't like to crash, wants to take floaters, pull-ups and 3's more than he wants to bang. I thought he'd be a nice option as an outside-in slasher but he's not even really that. He doesn't want contact and certainly isn't comfortable in the paint.

Josh O is more of a college 5 than a 4, and not a great one at that. Not a ton of agility, real scary in the open court, not who you want running pick-and-pops. He's there to soak up fouls, pull down a couple boards and give the starters a breather. Not better for much more than that.

What we're missing is the Mark Vital, Rico Gathers, Royce O'Neal role guys, rangy bulldogs underneath who have agility, mobility and competence on both ends. We have no one even approaching that skill set right now with those easy repeatable buckets, and it's going to cost us next month when the finessed range game fails us, which it will at some point.


You left out the name of the player that is not here but actually eligible to play. Where would this team be if we had Mayer?…..I don't fault Drew because no one has ever pulled out of the Combine twice and returned. But that is all prior to NIL.

It used to be if you wanted to get paid to play above the table you had to turn Pro. Now CMBB is a Pro League.
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Quinton
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In reply to BUCANDOIT82 • 8:01p, 2/22/23
BUCANDOIT82 said:
I have discussed this on other threads. We need to go to the 4 guard lineup and we need to give JTT minutes at the 4. It's not complicated.


What defense would you run with the 4 guards out there? Would you run it with Thamba or Jon or possibly even Bridges?
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BUCANDOIT82
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In reply to Quinton • 6:53p, 2/23/23
Quinton said:
BUCANDOIT82 said:
I have discussed this on other threads. We need to go to the 4 guard lineup and we need to give JTT minutes at the 4. It's not complicated.


What defense would you run with the 4 guards out there? Would you run it with Thamba or Jon or possibly even Bridges?


The defense would be Zone…Of the 3 Centers only JTT can play the 4 and it doesn't matter who else plays the 5.

The year we lost to Duke we only had a 6 man rotation…It's OK to shorten the rotation to 7.
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BUCANDOIT82
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7:15p, 2/23/23
Look, we have to remember that the 2021 Champs were one of the best college teams in the 1 and done era, if not the best team.
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Bakersdozen
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8:38p, 2/23/23
We got roster issues. One important thing to look at - when we need players, see who Drew plays. The ones that don't play, aren't players.

The experiment with Bonner is over. I know that isn't popular to say but he needs to transfer somewhere he can get significant time. It isn't at Baylor and he would be a good pick up for someone.

Love Drew, but keeping Loveday and Turner on the roster has cost him the last two year.

Love hasn't shown consistency. Who cares if Thamba starts every game. He is a back up piece. Lohner has been a disappointment. Bridges is a good player. Josh cannot play the 4.

Cryer is a great set shooter. That's it. Can't penetrate the lane and won't play defense. Just may be too small to play defense.

Flagler is our best guard, but he isn't comfortable against very athletic, aggressive defense.

Love me some Keyonte George but he won't play a lick of defense.

I have never seen a worst team at stopping the ball down the court. That is just "want to" and nothing more.
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Crawfoso1973
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In reply to Bakersdozen • 10:10a, 2/24/23
Bakersdozen said:
We got roster issues. One important thing to look at - when we need players, see who Drew plays. The ones that don't play, aren't players.

The experiment with Bonner is over. I know that isn't popular to say but he needs to transfer somewhere he can get significant time. It isn't at Baylor and he would be a good pick up for someone.

Love Drew, but keeping Loveday and Turner on the roster has cost him the last two year.

Love hasn't shown consistency. Who cares if Thamba starts every game. He is a back up piece. Lohner has been a disappointment. Bridges is a good player. Josh cannot play the 4.

Cryer is a great set shooter. That's it. Can't penetrate the lane and won't play defense. Just may be too small to play defense.

Flagler is our best guard, but he isn't comfortable against very athletic, aggressive defense.

Love me some Keyonte George but he won't play a lick of defense.

I have never seen a worst team at stopping the ball down the court. That is just "want to" and nothing more.
Bonner is a senior so he will be gone next year regardless.

Contrary to popular opinion, defense isn't always all about the "want to." I see guys like Flagler and Cryer trying their very best, but they are just not gifted defenders for a variety of reasons not related to effort. I agree we got roster issues. We got unlucky with Sochan leaving a year earlier than anticipated and Lohner being a complete bust but who we needed to replace him.
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Oldbear83
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In reply to Fre3dombear • 12:38p, 2/24/23
Fre3dombear said:
We really just need to hit more layups. Would change things a lot
This. We miss bunny shots more than Elmer Fudd.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
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Oldbear83
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In reply to Bakersdozen • 12:40p, 2/24/23
"That is just "want to" and nothing more."

B u l l s h i t .

That kind of post is an emotional tantrum and reveals appalling ignorance by the poster.

Nothing more.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
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Fre3dombear
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In reply to Oldbear83 • 7:33p, 2/24/23
Oldbear83 said:
Fre3dombear said:
We really just need to hit more layups. Would change things a lot
This. We miss bunny shots more than Elmer Fudd.


That made me laugh

Plus I notice that we got a couple guys lately missing FT and front ends at pretty critical times. Hasn't helped when on a knife edge

When at worst you should be done maybe 4-6 and you're down 12-15 it makes bad shooting in stretches incaurmlumtable.
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joseywales
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In reply to Crawfoso1973 • 9:03p, 2/24/23
Crawfoso1973 said:
I said this on another thread, I think we would be better off playing smaller with Bonner at backup 4 for the 10 or 12 minutes Bridges needs to rest. It is far from ideal but almost anything would be a better alternative than Lohner.
Lohner needs to sit period, when he is in we get killed by his dropped passes, his clumsy shots and his turnovers.
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DanaDane
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1:19p, 2/25/23
Ok. You got your wish. Jon in at the #4 and Josh O at the #5 at the 14:32 mark of the 1st half vs. UT.
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wgeralds
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In reply to BluesBear • 2:18p, 2/25/23
BluesBear said:
Crawfoso1973 said:
I said this on another thread, I think we would be better off playing smaller with Bonner at backup 4 for the 10 or 12 minutes Bridges needs to rest. It is far from ideal but almost anything would be a better alternative than Lohner.
Someone send Drew a few tapes of the Chicago Bulls with Rodman....."Listen Lohner, you are going in for 4 minutes, you need to be a beast on the boards, punishing anyone that brings the ball inside the paint...outside of that, don't **** it up. No shooting and NO DRIBBLING"...
can thamba watch that video with him?
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wgeralds
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In reply to Crawfoso1973 • 2:19p, 2/25/23
Crawfoso1973 said:
Bakersdozen said:
We got roster issues. One important thing to look at - when we need players, see who Drew plays. The ones that don't play, aren't players.

The experiment with Bonner is over. I know that isn't popular to say but he needs to transfer somewhere he can get significant time. It isn't at Baylor and he would be a good pick up for someone.

Love Drew, but keeping Loveday and Turner on the roster has cost him the last two year.

Love hasn't shown consistency. Who cares if Thamba starts every game. He is a back up piece. Lohner has been a disappointment. Bridges is a good player. Josh cannot play the 4.

Cryer is a great set shooter. That's it. Can't penetrate the lane and won't play defense. Just may be too small to play defense.

Flagler is our best guard, but he isn't comfortable against very athletic, aggressive defense.

Love me some Keyonte George but he won't play a lick of defense.

I have never seen a worst team at stopping the ball down the court. That is just "want to" and nothing more.
Bonner is a senior so he will be gone next year regardless.

Contrary to popular opinion, defense isn't always all about the "want to." I see guys like Flagler and Cryer trying their very best, but they are just not gifted defenders for a variety of reasons not related to effort. I agree we got roster issues. We got unlucky with Sochan leaving a year earlier than anticipated and Lohner being a complete bust but who we needed to replace him.
why can't everyone just be davion mitchell, ya know?
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Limited IQ Redneck in PU
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11:25a, 2/27/23
Old Bear that may be the best post I have seen in a while. its insulting to say such things about our players.
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JP1037
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11:40a, 2/27/23
I don't get the Lohner hate. He rebounds. He plays physical defense. He can score within his role.

I am not saying he is great but he is big, tough and he rebounds. He is a limited minutes contributor. When we are struggling to rebound and play defense he helps a lot. We don't need him to score.
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Crawfoso1973
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In reply to JP1037 • 1:13p, 2/27/23
JP1037 said:
I don't get the Lohner hate. He rebounds. He plays physical defense. He can score within his role.

I am not saying he is great but he is big, tough and he rebounds. He is a limited minutes contributor. When we are struggling to rebound and play defense he helps a lot. We don't need him to score.
Not speaking for anyone else, just for myself, I don't hate Lohner but he is simply not big 12 material. I'm sure he's a good kid and I know he tries his hardest. On offense he has no skill whatsoever and every time he touches the ball he will fumble it back to the other team. Also I disagree that he is a good defender. The only thing he can do on a limited basis is rebound at a decent rate, but even when he gets a rebound he will usually turn it back over to the other team. A lot of the frustration surrounding him is that we desperately needed an impact transfer to replace the trio of MM / KB / Sochan and he was a bust.
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boykin_spaniel
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1:40p, 2/27/23
We're going to be a quick out again if we play a lengthy athletic team like Arkansas. They were plagued with injury and played us close because of their defense. Our guards are stellar but if long athletic guys push out it causes problems for stretches. That's when you need some bigs to step up and work the space created inside and we don't have that as mentioned. Bridges and Thamba looked solid against Texas. More play like that and maybe we be a threat to push pass the 16s
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IowaBear
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In reply to boykin_spaniel • 1:50p, 2/27/23
I've said for awhile now a S16 would be gravy anything further would be fantastic and likely due to favorable matchups. Really need to hang onto this 2 seed and create an easier path (on paper) to the S16
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Crawfoso1973
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2:20p, 2/27/23
Agree with you both. But I still think we have a final 4 ceiling with the right matchups and if we get hot. Wide range of possibilities with this team. We have already proven we can beat the heavyweights and have the most quad 1 wins in the big 12 last I checked. On the other hand we have a much lower floor when compared to previous years due to our sporadic defensive effort. I wouldn't be surprised or shocked at all to see an elite 8 or final 4 appearance. On the other hand wouldn't be surprised at all to see us get knocked out in the round of 32.
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Bakersdozen
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In reply to Oldbear83 • 7:04p, 2/27/23
Oldbear83 said:
"That is just "want to" and nothing more."

B u l l s h i t .

That kind of post is an emotional tantrum and reveals appalling ignorance by the poster.

Nothing more.
I had to laugh. No emotion here at all. Stopping the ball on the fast break isn't hard. Cryer and George play "ole" with the opposing offensive players.
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Oldbear83
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In reply to Bakersdozen • 7:47p, 2/27/23
Bakersdozen said:
Oldbear83 said:
"That is just "want to" and nothing more."

B u l l s h i t .

That kind of post is an emotional tantrum and reveals appalling ignorance by the poster.

Nothing more.
I had to laugh. No emotion here at all. Stopping the ball on the fast break isn't hard. Cryer and George play "ole" with the opposing offensive players.
Tell me you don't watch much basketball without actually saying you don't watch much basketball...
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
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Crawfoso1973
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In reply to Crawfoso1973 • 6:08a, 2/28/23
Crawfoso1973 said:
I said this on another thread, I think we would be better off playing smaller with Bonner at backup 4 for the 10 or 12 minutes Bridges needs to rest. It is far from ideal but almost anything would be a better alternative than Lohner.
Let's see if this happens now. Bonner deserves playing time even with everyone healthy.
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Space Cutter
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10:35a, 2/28/23
After several games now it's clear Lohner is a big body but he plays out of sync with the team. Last night as the game tightened, Lohner threw the ball directly to the OSU player. He's late receiving or throwing passes. His aggressive play is great but timing is off. He even shot a 3 that was not close. Get the ball to the guards and run. Even the other players seem hesitant to pass to him. Hopefully he can improve.
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