Ja'Kobe Walter named 2022-23 MaxPreps Missouri High School Basketball POY

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gobears20
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7:55a, 3/22/23
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Ja'Kobe Walter named 2022-23 MaxPreps Missouri High School Basketball Player of the Year
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EvilTroyAndAbed
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8:13a, 3/22/23
A lot of people on the boards here don't want him. Oh well. I'm looking forward to having him.
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IowaBear
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In reply to EvilTroyAndAbed • 8:22a, 3/22/23
Please point to just 1 person who's said they don't want Walter? Haven't seen that posted by anyone unless I missed something
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gobears20
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8:41a, 3/22/23
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I think people have said they don't want five star guys but trust me you want this guy on your team. He is impressive on the defensive end and offensive end.
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IowaBear
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8:49a, 3/22/23
I read it as some don't want to turn into a mini Kentucky where we only recruit 1 and done types. Maybe I read it wrong. But I sure as hell didn't read people saying they don't want Walter on the Bears.
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EvilTroyAndAbed
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In reply to IowaBear • 8:49a, 3/22/23
IowaBear said:
Please point to just 1 person who's said they don't want Walter? Haven't seen that posted by anyone unless I missed something


There's a whole thread that says we need to quit bringing in 5* players and concentrate on 3* who will be here for four years.
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IowaBear
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In reply to EvilTroyAndAbed • 8:51a, 3/22/23
The thread talks about not wanting to focus solely on 5 star 1 and done types. Please point to where someone said they don't want Walter specifically. After all that's what you stated above
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guadalupeoso
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In reply to IowaBear • 9:50a, 3/22/23
IowaBear said:
The thread talks about not wanting to focus solely on 5 star 1 and done types. Please point to where someone said they don't want Walter specifically. After all that's what you stated above
I am wondering what the point of that thread was, because since when have we only focused on "5 star 1 and done types"? We had a grand total of 1 of those players on our 2022-2023 roster.

I am just not understanding how we have lost in the second round the last two years and everyone's gut reaction is "It's because we focus too much on the 1 and dones" like as if the majority of our roster and almost the entirety of our starting lineup isn't full of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th year guys.
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IowaBear
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In reply to guadalupeoso • 9:54a, 3/22/23
Again I could be wrong, but reading the thread it seems some are worried more about a shift in focus to 1 and done types. What seems to have made us the powerhouse that is BU was the 3-4 star chip on the shoulder types. Also appears reading the thread most want a blend of both which seems fair. Again I could be wrong but that's what I gathered reading it
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bear2be2
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In reply to IowaBear • 10:15a, 3/22/23
IowaBear said:
The thread talks about not wanting to focus solely on 5 star 1 and done types. Please point to where someone said they don't want Walter specifically. After all that's what you stated above
Nuance doesn't play well with this crowd.

As you've quite accurately pointed out, no one has said they don't want JaKobe Walter at Baylor. To suggest as much is a gross oversimplification of any point anyone has made in the one-and-done discussion.

As the poster here who is likely the most critical of one-and-done recruiting as a strategy, I would put it this way. I welcome JaKobe Walter to Baylor, but I want to see him as a sophomore and junior. If all we ever get is his freshman year, I expect to be frustrated and at least a little disappointed by his time in Waco.

Is that an indictment of Walter? Not at all. I've been frustrated and, at times, disappointed by almost every freshman we've ever had. College freshman are just, generally speaking, frustrating players. And if that first year isn't part of a developmental process that we get to watch play out at Baylor, the juice rarely justifies the squeeze -- both from an individual production standpoint and in terms of team success.

The only freshman we have had in the Scott Drew era who was even close to a complete player was Jeremy Sochan. If Walter comes in and provides that kind of production and leadership as a freshman, awesome. I'll be the kid's biggest champion and wish him well in the NBA. But I don't think it's a reasonable expectation based on decades of history now.

It's not the players or kids I dislike or don't want. It's the stage of their development that we're getting them in and the unrealistic expectations many of these kids have for themselves upon arrival.

If Walter is one of the precious few who is truly a freshman phenom, I look forward to watching him play for a year and then going to get paid in the NBA. If he's not, and that's far more likely, I hope we get to see him as a sophomore and potentially a junior when he'll have the maturity and experience to make a greater impact.
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Crawfoso1973
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10:22a, 3/22/23
Bringing this thread back to Ja'Kobe Walter, he will break the false narrative that 5 stars don't bring chips on their shoulders and don't play defense. Ja'Kobe is a gritty player who brings that Mamba mentality. He is an uber competitive kid who absolutely hates losing. No matter how many seasons he plays for us we are so fortunate to have him.
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bear2be2
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In reply to guadalupeoso • 10:26a, 3/22/23
guadalupeoso said:
IowaBear said:
The thread talks about not wanting to focus solely on 5 star 1 and done types. Please point to where someone said they don't want Walter specifically. After all that's what you stated above
I am wondering what the point of that thread was, because since when have we only focused on "5 star 1 and done types"? We had a grand total of 1 of those players on our 2022-2023 roster.

I am just not understanding how we have lost in the second round the last two years and everyone's gut reaction is "It's because we focus too much on the 1 and dones" like as if the majority of our roster and almost the entirety of our starting lineup isn't full of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th year guys.
I can't speak to others' points, but my point is that since our championship, we've had back-to-back disappointing tournament finishes and, because of the turnover in our freshman recruiting the last two years, have little homegrown nucleus to build around this offseason. So it's more likely than not in my estimation that we'll find ourselves in a similar situation next March -- rebuilding our roster once again and hoping to find some secret sauce of elite freshman talent and first-year transfers.

We built a championship program on chemistry, culture, player development and roster continuity. As our recruiting shifts more toward one-and-done talent, I think we start to lose a lot of the things that took this program from good to great from 2019-2022.

That's not too say we can't build a championship roster this way. But I think a lot of programs have proven that it's hard to build any sort of consistency when ushering out your highest usage players and turning over your nucleus every season.
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bear2be2
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In reply to Crawfoso1973 • 10:28a, 3/22/23
Crawfoso1973 said:
Bringing this thread back to Ja'Kobe Walter, he will break the false narrative that 5 stars don't bring chips on their shoulders and don't play defense. Ja'Kobe is a gritty player who brings that Mamba mentality. He is an uber competitive kid who absolutely hates losing. No matter how many seasons he plays for us we are so fortunate to have him.
"But don't build any sort of expectations for him because if he's not Kobe Bryant, who I've ridiculously compared him to in this post, I'll tell you you were the one with unrealistic expectations."
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Crawfoso1973
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In reply to bear2be2 • 10:49a, 3/22/23
I was not comparing Walter to Bryant or saying he will be good as Bryant. Mamba mentality is just in reference to a competitive mindset that he brings to the game.
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EvilTroyAndAbed
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10:51a, 3/22/23
IowaBear

Give me the 3-4 star with a chip on his shoulder any day over a 5 star looking to showcase himself for the draft.
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bear2be2
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In reply to Crawfoso1973 • 10:51a, 3/22/23
Crawfoso1973 said:
I was not comparing Walter to Bryant or saying he will be good as Bryant. Mamba mentality is just in reference to a competitive mindset that he brings to the game.
Fair enough. If he's ready to come in, work and play defense, I'm excited to watch him play.

This year's team was way too soft/finesse in nature. We need some blue collar dogs to get back where we want to be IMO.
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IowaBear
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In reply to EvilTroyAndAbed • 11:00a, 3/22/23
Correct, and I stand by that! But I've also been very open to recruiting 5 stars if we're going to blend them with those types. I've said all season my biggest knock on George is he loafs defensively and at times takes bad shots. Those are the only knocks I've mentioned regarding George. Point to me in my thought where I said "I don't want JaKobe" that's you making **** up. And if you don't think Key was trying to showcase himself in stretches you need some new glasses.
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JP1037
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11:09a, 3/22/23
Order of preference for recruiting for Baylor/Scott Drew (IMO)
1) Culture Fit
2) Talent
3) Positional needs

Drew can't be 100% but I trust him to find the best fits.

That being said probably smart to have high 3 and 4 star kids to fill roles and stick around longer. But there are no guarantees 3 star players will develop (we have a couple in that category) or stick around. Kids just transfer if they aren't playing or don't like the offense for their skill set. That route is also a crap shoot.
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bear2be2
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In reply to JP1037 • 11:43a, 3/22/23
JP1037 said:
Order of preference for recruiting for Baylor/Scott Drew (IMO)
1) Culture Fit
2) Talent
3) Positional needs

Drew can't be 100% but I trust him to find the best fits.

That being said probably smart to have high 3 and 4 star kids to fill roles and stick around longer. But there are no guarantees 3 star players will develop (we have a couple in that category) or stick around. Kids just transfer if they aren't playing or don't like the offense for their skill set. That route is also a crap shoot.
My biggest issue with one-and-dones is the investment you have to make in them. By giving a star freshmen 26-30 minutes a game, you're throwing a ton of time and energy into a player that almost certainly won't be back the following year. If they don't help you win -- and for me at this point, anything less than a Sweet 16 is always going to be at least a little disappointing -- then you don't have much to show for all that effort and you missed out on an opportunity to get other players with more long-term futures a chance to play and learn.

Obviously Love had some injury issues this year, but how much better/more confident might he be going into next year if he had gotten about half of George's minutes this season?

That's the gamble you're making every time you go all in on a one-year player. It's always win-now mode and the development of others becomes a secondary concern.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for winning. But to date, we've had more success through the player development route than this one.
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parch
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In reply to Crawfoso1973 • 12:01p, 3/22/23
Crawfoso1973 said:
Bringing this thread back to Ja'Kobe Walter, he will break the false narrative that 5 stars don't bring chips on their shoulders and don't play defense. Ja'Kobe is a gritty player who brings that Mamba mentality. He is an uber competitive kid who absolutely hates losing. No matter how many seasons he plays for us we are so fortunate to have him.
Many campuses have disproven that narrative already, including this year and including this month - in Fayetteville, in Tuscaloosa, in Houston, in Durham. We just haven't disproven it yet in Waco.
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Crawfoso1973
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In reply to parch • 12:04p, 3/22/23
Sochan
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parch
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In reply to Crawfoso1973 • 12:05p, 3/22/23
Sochan was not a 5-star recruit. He wasn't even a top 100.
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Crawfoso1973
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In reply to parch • 12:09p, 3/22/23
Gotcha, but I think just because he was Euro and those recruiting services underestimated him or were unaware of him. I immediately saw the 5 star talent the first time I saw him play for us.
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parch
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In reply to Crawfoso1973 • 12:20p, 3/22/23
It's possible, likely even. The sort of spin cycle the AAU creates from early ages isn't as prevalent outside of soccer in Europe, so they come in a bit more humble, eager to make a name and world-wise oftentimes. And if you are in that spin cycle overseas, you're going straight to the NBA like Luka or Wemby.

The problem you battle with 5* guys, and why it matters, isn't that they're 5* recruits itself - it's just a number, and they're up there because they are immense talents. The main problem isn't even that they only spend a year on campus - although not at all ideal it has not stopped several programs from winning titles.

The apex of the problem is the mentality it can generate around their talent on a personal level and the impact it has on their usage rates, defensive risk tolerance and willingness to buy wholesale into a program ethos and strategy that they see as a necessary means to an end. It can erode locker rooms, eat into gameplans and tie a coach's hand because, well, I gotta play him. This is not every 5*, but I would argue it's many of them, most even. It's the minority that humble themselves and submit to the team, because they simply feel they don't need to.

Conversely, that describes pretty much zero 3 and 4* guys, similarly with international guys as well no matter the ranking. No coach is going to turn down the chance to coach a Keyonte George-type talent, let alone multiple, but you also have to acknowledge and accept the risks and how it will shape your program when you do.
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KIA
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12:23p, 3/22/23
The "please point out one post that says we don't want 5-star players" argument goes both ways.

Has anyone on this board suggested that we only bring in 5-star, one and done recruits?

Happy to have Walter!
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Crawfoso1973
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In reply to parch • 12:29p, 3/22/23
I 100% agree that is a risk with the 5 star and the AAU culture in general. With Baylor, our staff always insists they fit our culture above anything else. Like everyone else I know we have had our share of recruiting misses and busts over the past decade but I don't recall any of them being busts for character reasons outside of Al Freeman and the big who went to Illinois with Maher.. KB and Keyonte by all accounts fit our culture even though they have been heavily criticized for flaws in their game and some folks on here didn't want them in our program.
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parch
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In reply to Crawfoso1973 • 1:04p, 3/22/23
Crawfoso1973 said:
I 100% agree that is a risk with the 5 star and the AAU culture in general. With Baylor, our staff always insists they fit our culture above anything else. Like everyone else I know we have had our share of recruiting misses and busts over the past decade but I don't recall any of them being busts for character reasons outside of Al Freeman and the big who went to Illinois with Maher.. KB and Keyonte by all accounts fit our culture even though they have been heavily criticized for flaws in their game and some folks on here didn't want them in our program.
I think we may be getting our wires crossed on this piece of it. Nobody is suggesting Walter or Key or any of our 5* guys are anywhere close to busts or "bad" character, in the sense that they're breaking rules and living outside the law so to speak. Key in particular seemed like a perfectly respectable dude.

The point is to have an honest conversation about how they have been out-worked, out-hustled and out-impacted in every single instance, on every single roster they've ever been on of ours, by players with lower pedigrees and smaller recruiting profiles. Many times dramatically so. When we have a single 5* who becomes the team leader, either statistically or in word/deed, then I will happily shuck off my skepticism. Happily.

It's not just an "us" concern about what the elite youth circuit is doing to top recruits' mentalities by the time they're 18. It's seeping into 10-year-olds. Like I said, it's not a question of character. It's a question of how much they feel the need to give over to the program since, let's be honest, we're just a necessary evil because the system says they have to be here.

To be clear, I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with recruiting the high top 10 5* guys on its face. It just comes with unique challenges we've never hurdled before, and Drew has never hurdled before, as a program. Recruiting multiples per class is not how Drew built the program, and I think it's fair to be curious how it will change our trajectory since his previous methodology won a natty with zero 5* guys on the team and zero top 50's.
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bear2be2
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In reply to KIA • 1:51p, 3/22/23
KIA said:
The "please point out one post that says we don't want 5-star players" argument goes both ways.

Has anyone on this board suggested that we only bring in 5-star, one and done recruits?

Happy to have Walter!
It doesn't take a roster full of them, though.

Look at the last two years. We've brought in ...

Kendall Brown
Jeremy Sochan
Langston Love
Keyonte George
Josh Ojianwuna

So for those two years, the only thing we have to show for those classes is two Round of 32 exits, a talented but oft-injured guard who may or may not be here next year and a super raw post player.

Do that four or five classes in a row and you're rebuilding your roster/nucleus literally every year.

That's my fear. Because when you get to that point, your program becomes extremely volatile. Kentucky is the best example of that. Their best teams since the AD team have Final Four ceilings they almost never reach and their worst teams are Baylor 2010-11 level disasters -- ill-fitting, poorly constructed squads that start the year in the top 10 and finish in the NIT or worse.
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EvilTroyAndAbed
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In reply to bear2be2 • 3:48p, 3/22/23
bear2be2 said:
KIA said:
The "please point out one post that says we don't want 5-star players" argument goes both ways.

Has anyone on this board suggested that we only bring in 5-star, one and done recruits?

Happy to have Walter!
It doesn't take a roster full of them, though.

Look at the last two years. We've brought in ...

Kendall Brown
Jeremy Sochan
Langston Love
Keyonte George
Josh Ojianwuna

So for those two years, the only thing we have to show for those classes is two Round of 32 exits, a talented but oft-injured guard who may or may not be here next year and a super raw post player.

Do that four or five classes in a row and you're rebuilding your roster/nucleus literally every year.

That's my fear. Because when you get to that point, your program becomes extremely volatile. Kentucky is the best example of that. Their best teams since the AD team have Final Four ceilings they almost never reach and their worst teams are Baylor 2010-11 level disasters -- ill-fitting, poorly constructed squads that start the year in the top 10 and finish in the NIT or worse.


Recently, yes, but the Karl Anthony Townes team was incredible. They just played a bad game against Wisconsin in the Final Four.
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bear2be2
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In reply to EvilTroyAndAbed • 4:36p, 3/22/23
EvilTroyAndAbed said:
bear2be2 said:
KIA said:
The "please point out one post that says we don't want 5-star players" argument goes both ways.

Has anyone on this board suggested that we only bring in 5-star, one and done recruits?

Happy to have Walter!
It doesn't take a roster full of them, though.

Look at the last two years. We've brought in ...

Kendall Brown
Jeremy Sochan
Langston Love
Keyonte George
Josh Ojianwuna

So for those two years, the only thing we have to show for those classes is two Round of 32 exits, a talented but oft-injured guard who may or may not be here next year and a super raw post player.

Do that four or five classes in a row and you're rebuilding your roster/nucleus literally every year.

That's my fear. Because when you get to that point, your program becomes extremely volatile. Kentucky is the best example of that. Their best teams since the AD team have Final Four ceilings they almost never reach and their worst teams are Baylor 2010-11 level disasters -- ill-fitting, poorly constructed squads that start the year in the top 10 and finish in the NIT or worse.
Recently, yes, but the Karl Anthony Townes team was incredible. They just played a bad game against Wisconsin in the Final Four.
That team was great, and they've had a couple of others that were really good since. But most have been tripped up before they were expected to be. And the past four years have been really mediocre by that program's standards.
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