Kansas won't be as easy to stop as Oregon state will…
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big man defense gotta step up
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Last: 11 mo ago by Mitch Henessey
Kansas gotta match our depth and firepower too though. I'm not sure they have the depth or the shooting to keep up with us.Bearsalwayswin said:
Kansas won't be as easy to stop as Oregon state will…
Crawfoso1973 said:Kansas gotta match our depth and firepower too though. I'm not sure they have the depth or the shooting to keep up with us.Bearsalwayswin said:
Kansas won't be as easy to stop as Oregon state will…
But they do have the officials
Our big men did not look good on defense..
The bigs' defense last night was an embarrassment.
Beavers' bigs were allowed to get position and we barely put up a fight
Beavers' bigs were allowed to get position and we barely put up a fight
No doubt the coaches will be working on this for the next few weeks. Tomorrow will be a real test.
I didn't see the game. But I take it we should have won by 40 points. Lol.
It should still be available via streaming.
I've got some more important things to today. Happy Thanksgiving!
Absolutely: family, friends, fellowship, good food, etc are more important. But the game should still be available tomorrow and Thursday & the next couple of days.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Happy Thanksgiving!
We have had our best center position play in many years so far and it will get better with experience. Least of my worries.
Also, I don't like it but you just defend differently up 20 than in a tight game.
Also, I don't like it but you just defend differently up 20 than in a tight game.
Defense by Missi and Josh O will be a work in progress all year so if anyone is expecting elitism in that area, they are in for a long season.
Missi is a young kid who, I doubt seriously, has had extensive defensive instruction in his lifetime (common with most young kids where the focus is almost always tilted to the offensive side) and he's been under the direction of our staff for less than 6 months. I'm not sure why anyone would have high expectations of him on D at this point as he's basically learning to play D within our team. Take a step back for a moment and remember he's actually supposed to be competing against 15-18 year old kids right now.
He will look good at things like blocked shots, anything requiring athletic movement, and against smaller guys because he is simply an athletic freak with exceptional hand-eye coordination. But anything requiring deep seeded fundamental skills such as rotation or how to use his body for leverage or properly box out a stronger guy or basically anything requiring him to match the body size or power of a 22 year old, 4 year experienced college player will likely expose some of his developmental areas at times. The good news is that Missi isn't afraid to mix it up (to the extent he understands how) and so I think you will see very good progress over the course of the season as he appears to be an incredibly fast learner and with each game he is getting more experience. It's why I said in the game thread that a game against someone like Oregon St, even though they aren't very good, is much more productive for the development of this team than playing John Brown or Gardiner Webb, because even Oregon St has tall, physical, older kids similar to what Missi will face in Big 12 play.
Josh O will give 100% effort on D but his body movement and hand movement on D are a little slow for this level of ball, so he will likely struggle on D with any fundamentally sound or experienced big of similar size. He's made progress since last year but he simply doesn't have the same leve of athleticism, speed and movement patterns of Missi. He gets lost trying to rotate (because he doesn't move laterally very well) and is still easily fooled by pump fakes, while also still committing the typical young mistakes of reaching instead of using his body for positioning, which allows him to get backed down by the opposing player. The compensating factor for Josh is that the other 4 guys on the court with him this year all have demonstrated extremely quick hands, much faster and better than last year, and so they will help lift him. Josh is also not afraid to mix it up, so he will continue to grow in areas as well.
The rest of our D has looked eons better than last year in my opinion, and so I believe that fact, combined with Drew and staff setting up specific gameplans to help Missi and Josh against guys like Dickinson, will be the pathway to us having a good enough D to compete for the Big 12 title.
The thing that should be remembered about last night is that Drew seriously knew he could have won that game by 30+ points. If you watched closely he rotated people in and out all night making it evident he was seeing how different combos worked rather than worrying about how many points we won by. From my perspective, that appeared to be one of the explanations behind the significant dropoff in 2nd half D compared with 1st half. If Drew had kept the rotation to 7, maybe 8, guys and focused as if it were pivotal mid-season conference game, I don't think it would have looked the same. Scott's thinking about late Feb or early March now, not some random tournament game in late November.
(Sorry, didn't mean it to be this long)
Missi is a young kid who, I doubt seriously, has had extensive defensive instruction in his lifetime (common with most young kids where the focus is almost always tilted to the offensive side) and he's been under the direction of our staff for less than 6 months. I'm not sure why anyone would have high expectations of him on D at this point as he's basically learning to play D within our team. Take a step back for a moment and remember he's actually supposed to be competing against 15-18 year old kids right now.
He will look good at things like blocked shots, anything requiring athletic movement, and against smaller guys because he is simply an athletic freak with exceptional hand-eye coordination. But anything requiring deep seeded fundamental skills such as rotation or how to use his body for leverage or properly box out a stronger guy or basically anything requiring him to match the body size or power of a 22 year old, 4 year experienced college player will likely expose some of his developmental areas at times. The good news is that Missi isn't afraid to mix it up (to the extent he understands how) and so I think you will see very good progress over the course of the season as he appears to be an incredibly fast learner and with each game he is getting more experience. It's why I said in the game thread that a game against someone like Oregon St, even though they aren't very good, is much more productive for the development of this team than playing John Brown or Gardiner Webb, because even Oregon St has tall, physical, older kids similar to what Missi will face in Big 12 play.
Josh O will give 100% effort on D but his body movement and hand movement on D are a little slow for this level of ball, so he will likely struggle on D with any fundamentally sound or experienced big of similar size. He's made progress since last year but he simply doesn't have the same leve of athleticism, speed and movement patterns of Missi. He gets lost trying to rotate (because he doesn't move laterally very well) and is still easily fooled by pump fakes, while also still committing the typical young mistakes of reaching instead of using his body for positioning, which allows him to get backed down by the opposing player. The compensating factor for Josh is that the other 4 guys on the court with him this year all have demonstrated extremely quick hands, much faster and better than last year, and so they will help lift him. Josh is also not afraid to mix it up, so he will continue to grow in areas as well.
The rest of our D has looked eons better than last year in my opinion, and so I believe that fact, combined with Drew and staff setting up specific gameplans to help Missi and Josh against guys like Dickinson, will be the pathway to us having a good enough D to compete for the Big 12 title.
The thing that should be remembered about last night is that Drew seriously knew he could have won that game by 30+ points. If you watched closely he rotated people in and out all night making it evident he was seeing how different combos worked rather than worrying about how many points we won by. From my perspective, that appeared to be one of the explanations behind the significant dropoff in 2nd half D compared with 1st half. If Drew had kept the rotation to 7, maybe 8, guys and focused as if it were pivotal mid-season conference game, I don't think it would have looked the same. Scott's thinking about late Feb or early March now, not some random tournament game in late November.
(Sorry, didn't mean it to be this long)
Excellence in content often requires length, DD. No apologies necessary. Interesting and worthwhile analysis.
Much enjoyed and appreciated.
Much enjoyed and appreciated.
Excellent as usual, Dana, and I agree with your analysis. One thing I'll add is I'm less worried about our interior D this year because of our massive upgrade at perimeter D. Nunn and Kobe are elite perimeter defenders and Dennis can hold his own, so we won't see a parade of guards penetrating the paint at will like we saw all last year. Part of the reason Flo looked so bad last year was because he was always always out of position due to helping when opposing guards would penetrate the lane at will. Or because our guards provided no resistance to opposing post entry passes. Missi and Josh will be surrounded by a much better team defense, mitigating their inexperience.
We are missing a Mark Vital big body. Lots of great athletes but we are missing the tough, shorter defender than can get physical. It will hurt us this year.
Love our team, but I haven't yet seen the grit that I want to see - diving for balls, taking charges, just digging in and beating the other team physically. We can beat almost anyone with pure talent but there will come a time, like with Kansas, where they can match our talent and their intensity is just higher than ours.
Hope that is just a sign of the youth on this team.
Love our team, but I haven't yet seen the grit that I want to see - diving for balls, taking charges, just digging in and beating the other team physically. We can beat almost anyone with pure talent but there will come a time, like with Kansas, where they can match our talent and their intensity is just higher than ours.
Hope that is just a sign of the youth on this team.
I've seen Lohner do some of the Mark Vital things. He's not there yet but maybe he can get there or at least close. He can be a ball hawk at times, for example.
No offense but I'm not seeing the same games you have been watching so far. We have the makings of an extremely tough and gritty team this year. Walter and Nunn in particular have been junkyard dogs out there. Missi makes tons of mistakes but also brings that same kind of edge and competitiveness. It will take a minute for all the pieces to gel but I'm not seeing a lack of grit or effort.
In the second half OSU began to isolate their thicker, more experienced bigs against ours and had some success. A good adjustment by the OSU coach. It's true Missi and JO were outmatched by these guys one on one but both were scrappy and didn't make it easy for them. After a few rounds of this, Drew had JW crash down and Lohner came to help once. It will open us up to open 3 point shots and cuts to the lane but there are ways to help your center when they are outmatched by a stronger, experienced and skilled player. You have to pick your poison. I suppose if it got really bad we could have tried the zone.
I don't know if EJ could have helped (if he was playing in the game) but he would have been worth a look.
It was a nice game to learn from.
I don't know if EJ could have helped (if he was playing in the game) but he would have been worth a look.
It was a nice game to learn from.
I have not.historian said:
I've seen Lohner do some of the Mark Vital things.
Drew obviously sees something in Lohner that you clearly don't. And that's all that really matters. Guys gonna play whether you like it or not
He compared him to Vital, one of the greatest defensive players in the history of college hoops. The comp is laughable.IowaBear said:
Drew obviously sees something in Lohner that you clearly don't. And that's all that really matters. Guys gonna play whether you like it or not
And I agree Lohner should still get 10-12 minutes a game depending on matchups.
I'd be scratching my head at some of these hypercritical posts from a game we could have won by 30+...but then I remembered I'm on the internet, and on a Baylor fan message board.
Hate to break it to ya but most comps made on here are laughable…
Crawfoso1973
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Nunn and especially Walter look much better on the defensive end. Coming together. Dennis looked solid on D early. All let off the gas a little too much in the second half but were probably looking to Florida.
We've never really gone the route of grinding weaker teams into the ground. But this team needs a bit more consistent sharpness on D, the players and coaches admit that which is great. Not a team that can cruise yet.
Post D huge area of improvement needed considering the ease they worked the paint in the second half. Missi was clearly gassed out which led to easy buckets.
Florida will be a good test as they have crazy balance of scoring. Everyone will need to be on point defensively
We've never really gone the route of grinding weaker teams into the ground. But this team needs a bit more consistent sharpness on D, the players and coaches admit that which is great. Not a team that can cruise yet.
Post D huge area of improvement needed considering the ease they worked the paint in the second half. Missi was clearly gassed out which led to easy buckets.
Florida will be a good test as they have crazy balance of scoring. Everyone will need to be on point defensively
Lohner reminds me of Vital in that he's a glue guy and ball hawk. He's playing somewhat of the same role. I never said he was playing at the same level or was as good only that he did some of the same things. The comparison is valid. If he aspires to play like Mark it might motivate him to get better and clean up the mistakes. He will never be the legendary glue man Mark was but he can contribute in similar ways.
when you need a rebound or need to block out their rebounder, you go to Lohner.IowaBear said:
Drew obviously sees something in Lohner that you clearly don't. And that's all that really matters. Guys gonna play whether you like it or not
I am really talking about the 4s and 5. That is where we need some toughness, IMO. No offense taken.Crawfoso1973 said:
No offense but I'm not seeing the same games you have been watching so far. We have the makings of an extremely tough and gritty team this year. Walter and Nunn in particular have been junkyard dogs out there. Missi makes tons of mistakes but also brings that same kind of edge and competitiveness. It will take a minute for all the pieces to gel but I'm not seeing a lack of grit or effort.
Vital played defense like a guard. He rebounded like a 5 and he lead from beginning to end. There are few like him and few teams have that kind of player but we could use someone inside who is a bit of a bully.
I don't disagree. Every team needs a Mark Vital but those don't grow on trees.
After re-watching that game, I think the biggest issue for us is our transition D. Hurting us even more than our post defense. Seemed like every missed shot resulted in a dunk or layup on the other end. Luckily that is fixable, transition D is usually a matter of better communication and situational awareness.
Love the schedule, quality opponents exposing our weaknesses and showing us what we need to work on. No better way for a coaching staff to get the players' attention.
After re-watching that game, I think the biggest issue for us is our transition D. Hurting us even more than our post defense. Seemed like every missed shot resulted in a dunk or layup on the other end. Luckily that is fixable, transition D is usually a matter of better communication and situational awareness.
Love the schedule, quality opponents exposing our weaknesses and showing us what we need to work on. No better way for a coaching staff to get the players' attention.
Bakersdozen said:
I am really talking about the 4s and 5. That is where we need some toughness, IMO. No offense taken.
Vital played defense like a guard. He rebounded like a 5 and he lead from beginning to end. There are few like him and few teams have that kind of player but we could use someone inside who is a bit of a bully.
I don't think Missi or Josh O is afraid to mix it up. They have plenty of toughness in them. What they don't have is an understanding of how to use their toughness through proper body positioning, which is what Vital was incredibly effective at doing. Missi and Josh O, like almost all young bigs, play narrower than their actually body size because they play up and down (as if defending in a cyclinder) rather than effectively spreading and squatting, which Vital and most good defenders are tremendously effective at doing. It allows them to look good blocking shots, but a physically strong offensive player can easily backdown a defender like that.
Jonathan is excellent body positioning, he just doesn't have the quickness or mobility he had prior to the injury. But even in his weaker state, we are a much tougher team with him on the floor for the few minutes he can give..
Crawfoso1973 said:
After re-watching that game, I think the biggest issue for us is our transition D. Hurting us even more than our post defense. Seemed like every missed shot resulted in a dunk or layup on the other end.
I don't like overreacting to a game or two, but this is exactly my one concern that became apparent from this weeks' two games. Transition D was not good and most improve immensely, particularly against Duke. I stopped counting but at one point it was something like 19-2 in favor of the Gators. We have so much offensive firepower that we can overcome a lot of things, but I don't like seeing this.
The good news as you pointed out is that it is something that can be improved and I'll be surprised if Drew and staff don't clean that up. We have the players who have the speed and skills to correct it quickly. The post play D? Well, that is something that will be a work in progress. It is a visible weakness that every Big 12 can already see and will likely attack, so I'm sure Drew and staff are working to devise modifications in the D to help protect as much as possible.
Transition D is prpbably the easiest thing to fix. In high school, we worked hard on just that for one week...never had a problem with it again.
Its what makes me real excited about this team...we have all the hard to improve on stuff in the 'positive column' and all the easy to improve on stuff in the 'needs to improve column.'
Its what makes me real excited about this team...we have all the hard to improve on stuff in the 'positive column' and all the easy to improve on stuff in the 'needs to improve column.'
MIssi has no business playing in the NBA next year, even the D league. Can't blame him if he goes that route, but even this early in the season it is obvious he needs more time playing US basketball in college.
Too early to take a side on that call. Let's revisit that in March.
Bingo. Could have said the same thing about Jeremy Sochan in November 2021. Now he's starting in the NBA. Guys with high ceilings can develop quickly.Married A Horn said:
Too early to take a side on that call. Let's revisit that in March.
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