It was strange to see him get only 2 shots up against Central Florida. Hoping we can figure out how to make him a meaningful part of the offense again. Seems like it's been a while.
Walter
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Last: 9 mo ago by Quinton
Walter and Love are both elite at drawing fouls and getting to the line. Walter needs to keep attacking the rim and drawing fouls especially when his perimeter shot isn't falling. Walter and Love have the potential to hammer teams at the line by getting teams in the bonus earlier in halves. Similar to Bridges, Walter tends to become overly passive on the offensive end when he misses shots early. Once a couple free throws go down players tend to feel more confident in their shot.MashedPotatoes said:
It was strange to see him get only 2 shots up against Central Florida. Hoping we can figure out how to make him a meaningful part of the offense again. Seems like it's been a while.
I was blasted on another thread for this observation, but the thing I love about Walter is that he continues playing with energy and effort even when his shot isn't falling. He makes all the little plays that help a team win, plays that don't show up on the box score. He is a great rebounding guard and his defense is slowly improving. He doesn't force anything offensively and is unselfish almost to a fault.
Crawfoso1973 said:
the thing I love about Walter is that he continues playing with energy and effort even when his shot isn't falling.
This.
People in the UCF game thread were complaining early that he no-showed, but I think he had like 3 steals in the 1st half.
I loved Keyonte, but he shot us out of some games last year. We should appreciate that JW doesn't do that. I also think he's our best FT shooter besides LL.
100%. And no negative body language issues with Walter either, no matter how ice cold he has been with his shot. Very unselfish, gritty, and mentally tough. Doesn't at all fit the negative stereotypes most people on here have with regards to one-and-done players.
I don't think anyone was blasting your general observation about Walter's energy or effort. Most (myself included) agree with you that that's one of his most positive qualities. He doesn't sulk, force bad shots or loaf when he's not shooting well, and he generally finds other ways to impact a game positively.Crawfoso1973 said:Walter and Love are both elite at drawing fouls and getting to the line. Walter needs to keep attacking the rim and drawing fouls especially when his perimeter shot isn't falling. Walter and Love have the potential to hammer teams at the line by getting teams in the bonus earlier in halves. Similar to Bridges, Walter tends to become overly passive on the offensive end when he misses shots early. Once a couple free throws go down players tend to feel more confident in their shot.MashedPotatoes said:
It was strange to see him get only 2 shots up against Central Florida. Hoping we can figure out how to make him a meaningful part of the offense again. Seems like it's been a while.
I was blasted on another thread for this observation, but the thing I love about Walter is that he continues playing with energy and effort even when his shot isn't falling. He makes all the little plays that help a team win, plays that don't show up on the box score. He is a great rebounding guard and his defense is slowly improving. He doesn't force anything offensively and is unselfish almost to a fault.
The disagreement was with your specific take on his impact in the TCU game. He was pretty brutal on both ends in that one until the game-tying 3-pointer got him going.
As to your first paragraph, this is something we did really well early in the season and kind of got away from early in our conference schedule. This team is one of the best Drew has ever had at getting to the rim and free-throw line. We need to use that to our advantage -- especially when we're struggling from the perimeter.
I also appreciate it that he continues to play with effort and tries to contribute in other ways when the shot isn't falling, but it's still concerning that he seems to keep having games where the shot isn't there despite getting at least a decent number of open looks. You can only use the "oh well sometimes the shots don't fall" excuse so much until it becomes evident you aren't the shooter you were advertised to be.
Lotta bball left to play this season and I hope he'll turn it around.
Lotta bball left to play this season and I hope he'll turn it around.
Since the move from the Ferrell Center, the men have gone from the best 3 point shooting team in the land, to a much lower percentage. Same goes for the Lady Bears.
Hope we can figure out this Foster thing pretty quickly.
Hope we can figure out this Foster thing pretty quickly.
My observation as well. It is like they are on a neutral court at best. But my understanding is that they don't get to practice there because of the construction. Is that correct?Big12Bear said:
Since the move from the Ferrell Center, the men have gone from the best 3 point shooting team in the land, to a much lower percentage. Same goes for the Lady Bears.
Hope we can figure out this Foster thing pretty quickly.
They still practice at the Ferrell. That was announced when the Foster opened. I hope it's that simple because that's something they should be able to fix.
Anecdotal observations can sometimes lead to misplaced causal analysis. Here are actual statistical measurements from our 3 point shooting at the Ferrell Center and Foster this year, along with the Kenpom defensive efficiency metric of the opponent. You can decide whether the difference is explained by the specific site, defensive quality of opponent, both or other causal factor.
FERRELL CENTER
vs. J Brown...............5-23 (NAIA; not ranked)
vs. Gardner Webb....0-9 (#146)
vs. UMKC...............13-23 (#234)
vs. Nicholls St.........14-23 (#253)
vs. NW State...........10-28 (#337)
vs. Seton Hall..........10-22 (#58)
vs. MV State............19-30 (#355)
= 71-158 or 44.9%
FOSTER PAVILION
vs. Cornell................14-31 (#194)
vs. BYU....................10-23 (#23)
vs. UC........................5-20 (#15)
vs. TCU......................5-22 (#46)
= 34-96 of 35.4%
FERRELL CENTER
vs. J Brown...............5-23 (NAIA; not ranked)
vs. Gardner Webb....0-9 (#146)
vs. UMKC...............13-23 (#234)
vs. Nicholls St.........14-23 (#253)
vs. NW State...........10-28 (#337)
vs. Seton Hall..........10-22 (#58)
vs. MV State............19-30 (#355)
= 71-158 or 44.9%
FOSTER PAVILION
vs. Cornell................14-31 (#194)
vs. BYU....................10-23 (#23)
vs. UC........................5-20 (#15)
vs. TCU......................5-22 (#46)
= 34-96 of 35.4%
There's only one part of Jakobe Walter that I don't like - the part that sticks out from the front of his head like a bird's plume. If anything was "one and done" it needed to be that hairstyle a few weeks back.
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I know our AD said something like BU owed it to the seniors to play at Foster for conference play, but I will never understand why they thought it was good idea to move arenas mid-season; specifically when Foster and the surrounding area/parking/roads were not finished.DanaDane said:
Anecdotal observations can sometimes lead to misplaced causal analysis. Here are actual statistical measurements from our 3 point shooting at the Ferrell Center and Foster this year, along with the Kenpom defensive efficiency metric of the opponent. You can decide whether the difference is explained by the specific site, defensive quality of opponent, both or other causal factor.
FERRELL CENTER
vs. J Brown...............5-23 (NAIA; not ranked)
vs. Gardner Webb....0-9 (#146)
vs. UMKC...............13-23 (#234)
vs. Nicholls St.........14-23 (#253)
vs. NW State...........10-28 (#337)
vs. Seton Hall..........10-22 (#58)
vs. MV State............19-30 (#355)
= 71-158 or 44.9%
FOSTER PAVILION
vs. Cornell................14-31 (#194)
vs. BYU....................10-23 (#23)
vs. UC........................5-20 (#15)
vs. TCU......................5-22 (#46)
= 34-96 of 35.4%
EDIT: weird emoji. I dunno what that's about.
It's interesting to look at how our message board talks about Walter and Missi versus how opposing fans talk about them. I've looked around a few different places on the Internet and, almost to a T, Big 12 fans say things like this:
About Walter -
"He looks like an NBA player out there."
"That dude is an insane athlete."
"So smooth."
"His stroke looks so effortless."
About Missi -
"OMG, best player on the floor."
"What an athlete!"
"This guy is killing us on both ends."
"Prototype NBA center"
And on and on. I know we'll always be more critical of our own guys, since we are then game in and game out, but we are incredibly fortunate to have both of these young men.
It's interesting to look at how our message board talks about Walter and Missi versus how opposing fans talk about them. I've looked around a few different places on the Internet and, almost to a T, Big 12 fans say things like this:
About Walter -
"He looks like an NBA player out there."
"That dude is an insane athlete."
"So smooth."
"His stroke looks so effortless."
About Missi -
"OMG, best player on the floor."
"What an athlete!"
"This guy is killing us on both ends."
"Prototype NBA center"
And on and on. I know we'll always be more critical of our own guys, since we are then game in and game out, but we are incredibly fortunate to have both of these young men.
Opposing fans aren't invested in the outcomes of our games. We are. This shouldn't be a surprise.Mitch Henessey said:
EDIT: weird emoji. I dunno what that's about.
It's interesting to look at how our message board talks about Walter and Missi versus how opposing fans talk about them. I've looked around a few different places on the Internet and, almost to a T, Big 12 fans say things like this:
About Walter -
"He looks like an NBA player out there."
"That dude is an insane athlete."
"So smooth."
"His stroke looks so effortless."
About Missi -
"OMG, best player on the floor."
"What an athlete!"
"This guy is killing us on both ends."
"Prototype NBA center"
And on and on. I know we'll always be more critical of our own guys, since we are then game in and game out, but we are incredibly fortunate to have both of these young men.
They can enjoy watching Keyonte George go 2 for 10 with two insane shots. We're never going to if it comes in a loss.
Walter and Missi are far less frustrating than George was IMO. But both are just as inconsistent. That's the nature of leaning heavily on first-year players.
And they'll either get better as the season goes on and be an integral part of our squad down the stretch, or they won't, and we won't reach our potential. That's the same case as if we had a veteran team that had never played together before this season. Life in the transfer portal era.bear2be2 said:Opposing fans aren't invested in the outcomes of our games. We are. This shouldn't be a surprise.Mitch Henessey said:
EDIT: weird emoji. I dunno what that's about.
It's interesting to look at how our message board talks about Walter and Missi versus how opposing fans talk about them. I've looked around a few different places on the Internet and, almost to a T, Big 12 fans say things like this:
About Walter -
"He looks like an NBA player out there."
"That dude is an insane athlete."
"So smooth."
"His stroke looks so effortless."
About Missi -
"OMG, best player on the floor."
"What an athlete!"
"This guy is killing us on both ends."
"Prototype NBA center"
And on and on. I know we'll always be more critical of our own guys, since we are then game in and game out, but we are incredibly fortunate to have both of these young men.
They can enjoy watching Keyonte George go 2 for 10 with two insane shots. We're never going to if it comes in a loss.
Walter and Missi are far less frustrating than George was IMO. But both are just as inconsistent. That's the nature of leaning heavily on first-year players.
I guess it comes down to whether you'd rather have a team with less upside that is likelier to reach their potential, or a team with huge upside that is less likely to get there. I don't really have a clear bias one way or the other, so I'll trust Scott Drew, because he's shown he can build winning teams throughout various NCAA eras.
It's not the same thing. It's not a coincidence that our two most consistent players are a fifth-year senior and a junior. Nor is it a coincidence that our two most inconsistent players are freshmen. Experience matters.Mitch Henessey said:And they'll either get better as the season goes on and be an integral part of our squad down the stretch, or they won't, and we won't reach our potential. That's the same case as if we had a veteran team that had never played together before this season. Life in the transfer portal era.bear2be2 said:Opposing fans aren't invested in the outcomes of our games. We are. This shouldn't be a surprise.Mitch Henessey said:
EDIT: weird emoji. I dunno what that's about.
It's interesting to look at how our message board talks about Walter and Missi versus how opposing fans talk about them. I've looked around a few different places on the Internet and, almost to a T, Big 12 fans say things like this:
About Walter -
"He looks like an NBA player out there."
"That dude is an insane athlete."
"So smooth."
"His stroke looks so effortless."
About Missi -
"OMG, best player on the floor."
"What an athlete!"
"This guy is killing us on both ends."
"Prototype NBA center"
And on and on. I know we'll always be more critical of our own guys, since we are then game in and game out, but we are incredibly fortunate to have both of these young men.
They can enjoy watching Keyonte George go 2 for 10 with two insane shots. We're never going to if it comes in a loss.
Walter and Missi are far less frustrating than George was IMO. But both are just as inconsistent. That's the nature of leaning heavily on first-year players.
I guess it comes down to whether you'd rather have a team with less upside that is likelier to reach their potential, or a team with huge upside that is less likely to get there. I don't really have a clear bias one way or the other, so I'll trust Scott Drew, because he's shown he can build winning teams throughout various NCAA eras.
We will definitely need Walter and Missi to continue to progress to reach our potential. But outside of Sochan, our freshmen have typically become less effective over the course of a long Big 12 season, not more.
That's a grind these players aren't accustomed to and often aren't ready for.
I suspect Walter and Missi will find ways to contribute to another tournament appearance. But we need both to be special to reach the second weekend.
We were always going to go as far as RayJ, Love, and Bridges carry us. Drew's stated philosophy is "get old and stay old." He's begun supplementing that with high-level freshmen, and we'll see if that ends up being the right direction to go. We're not reading out of the Duke/UK playbook on team building with 4-5 freshmen contributors.bear2be2 said:It's not the same thing. It's not a coincidence that our two most consistent players are a fifth-year senior and a junior. Nor is it a coincidence that our two most inconsistent players are freshmen. Experience matters.Mitch Henessey said:And they'll either get better as the season goes on and be an integral part of our squad down the stretch, or they won't, and we won't reach our potential. That's the same case as if we had a veteran team that had never played together before this season. Life in the transfer portal era.bear2be2 said:Opposing fans aren't invested in the outcomes of our games. We are. This shouldn't be a surprise.Mitch Henessey said:
EDIT: weird emoji. I dunno what that's about.
It's interesting to look at how our message board talks about Walter and Missi versus how opposing fans talk about them. I've looked around a few different places on the Internet and, almost to a T, Big 12 fans say things like this:
About Walter -
"He looks like an NBA player out there."
"That dude is an insane athlete."
"So smooth."
"His stroke looks so effortless."
About Missi -
"OMG, best player on the floor."
"What an athlete!"
"This guy is killing us on both ends."
"Prototype NBA center"
And on and on. I know we'll always be more critical of our own guys, since we are then game in and game out, but we are incredibly fortunate to have both of these young men.
They can enjoy watching Keyonte George go 2 for 10 with two insane shots. We're never going to if it comes in a loss.
Walter and Missi are far less frustrating than George was IMO. But both are just as inconsistent. That's the nature of leaning heavily on first-year players.
I guess it comes down to whether you'd rather have a team with less upside that is likelier to reach their potential, or a team with huge upside that is less likely to get there. I don't really have a clear bias one way or the other, so I'll trust Scott Drew, because he's shown he can build winning teams throughout various NCAA eras.
We will definitely need Walter and Missi to continue to progress to reach our potential. But outside of Sochan, our freshmen have typically become less effective over the course of a long Big 12 season, not more.
That's a grind these players aren't accustomed to and often aren't ready for.
I suspect Walter and Missi will find ways to contribute to another tournament appearance. But we need both to be special to reach the second weekend.
I think this is revisionist history. You don't recruit five-star freshmen with the expectation that they take backseat roles. Either they rise to their talent levels or we underachieve. And if we do, it's perfectly fair to take a critical look at the way we're building our rosters and the level of responsibility we're putting on freshmen's shoulders.Mitch Henessey said:We were always going to go as far as RayJ, Love, and Bridges carry us. Drew's stated philosophy is "get old and stay old." He's begun supplementing that with high-level freshmen, and we'll see if that ends up being the right direction to go. We're not reading out of the Duke/UK playbook on team building with 4-5 freshmen contributors.bear2be2 said:It's not the same thing. It's not a coincidence that our two most consistent players are a fifth-year senior and a junior. Nor is it a coincidence that our two most inconsistent players are freshmen. Experience matters.Mitch Henessey said:And they'll either get better as the season goes on and be an integral part of our squad down the stretch, or they won't, and we won't reach our potential. That's the same case as if we had a veteran team that had never played together before this season. Life in the transfer portal era.bear2be2 said:Opposing fans aren't invested in the outcomes of our games. We are. This shouldn't be a surprise.Mitch Henessey said:
EDIT: weird emoji. I dunno what that's about.
It's interesting to look at how our message board talks about Walter and Missi versus how opposing fans talk about them. I've looked around a few different places on the Internet and, almost to a T, Big 12 fans say things like this:
About Walter -
"He looks like an NBA player out there."
"That dude is an insane athlete."
"So smooth."
"His stroke looks so effortless."
About Missi -
"OMG, best player on the floor."
"What an athlete!"
"This guy is killing us on both ends."
"Prototype NBA center"
And on and on. I know we'll always be more critical of our own guys, since we are then game in and game out, but we are incredibly fortunate to have both of these young men.
They can enjoy watching Keyonte George go 2 for 10 with two insane shots. We're never going to if it comes in a loss.
Walter and Missi are far less frustrating than George was IMO. But both are just as inconsistent. That's the nature of leaning heavily on first-year players.
I guess it comes down to whether you'd rather have a team with less upside that is likelier to reach their potential, or a team with huge upside that is less likely to get there. I don't really have a clear bias one way or the other, so I'll trust Scott Drew, because he's shown he can build winning teams throughout various NCAA eras.
We will definitely need Walter and Missi to continue to progress to reach our potential. But outside of Sochan, our freshmen have typically become less effective over the course of a long Big 12 season, not more.
That's a grind these players aren't accustomed to and often aren't ready for.
I suspect Walter and Missi will find ways to contribute to another tournament appearance. But we need both to be special to reach the second weekend.
I don't think it's revisionist at all. There are hardly any teams that rely on freshmen to be team leaders. Kentucky has done it, to mixed effect. Memphis has done it and had disastrous results. Our team leaders were always going to be veterans.bear2be2 said:I think this is revisionist history. You don't recruit five-star freshmen with the expectation that they take backseat roles. Either they rise to their talent levels or we underachieve. And if we do, it's perfectly fair to take a critical look at the way we're building our rosters and the level of responsibility we're putting on freshmen's shoulders.Mitch Henessey said:We were always going to go as far as RayJ, Love, and Bridges carry us. Drew's stated philosophy is "get old and stay old." He's begun supplementing that with high-level freshmen, and we'll see if that ends up being the right direction to go. We're not reading out of the Duke/UK playbook on team building with 4-5 freshmen contributors.bear2be2 said:It's not the same thing. It's not a coincidence that our two most consistent players are a fifth-year senior and a junior. Nor is it a coincidence that our two most inconsistent players are freshmen. Experience matters.Mitch Henessey said:And they'll either get better as the season goes on and be an integral part of our squad down the stretch, or they won't, and we won't reach our potential. That's the same case as if we had a veteran team that had never played together before this season. Life in the transfer portal era.bear2be2 said:Opposing fans aren't invested in the outcomes of our games. We are. This shouldn't be a surprise.Mitch Henessey said:
EDIT: weird emoji. I dunno what that's about.
It's interesting to look at how our message board talks about Walter and Missi versus how opposing fans talk about them. I've looked around a few different places on the Internet and, almost to a T, Big 12 fans say things like this:
About Walter -
"He looks like an NBA player out there."
"That dude is an insane athlete."
"So smooth."
"His stroke looks so effortless."
About Missi -
"OMG, best player on the floor."
"What an athlete!"
"This guy is killing us on both ends."
"Prototype NBA center"
And on and on. I know we'll always be more critical of our own guys, since we are then game in and game out, but we are incredibly fortunate to have both of these young men.
They can enjoy watching Keyonte George go 2 for 10 with two insane shots. We're never going to if it comes in a loss.
Walter and Missi are far less frustrating than George was IMO. But both are just as inconsistent. That's the nature of leaning heavily on first-year players.
I guess it comes down to whether you'd rather have a team with less upside that is likelier to reach their potential, or a team with huge upside that is less likely to get there. I don't really have a clear bias one way or the other, so I'll trust Scott Drew, because he's shown he can build winning teams throughout various NCAA eras.
We will definitely need Walter and Missi to continue to progress to reach our potential. But outside of Sochan, our freshmen have typically become less effective over the course of a long Big 12 season, not more.
That's a grind these players aren't accustomed to and often aren't ready for.
I suspect Walter and Missi will find ways to contribute to another tournament appearance. But we need both to be special to reach the second weekend.
I'm not talking about off-court leadership. I'm talking about on-court impact. You don't recruit five-star, one-and-done freshmen to be role players. There's not time for patience or perspective with players who won't be around to develop. They're here to perform for the one year they're on campus. And if they don't, it's a major problem for any team that relies on them.Mitch Henessey said:I don't think it's revisionist at all. There are hardly any teams that rely on freshmen to be team leaders. Kentucky has done it, to mixed effect. Memphis has done it and had disastrous results. Our team leaders were always going to be veterans.bear2be2 said:I think this is revisionist history. You don't recruit five-star freshmen with the expectation that they take backseat roles. Either they rise to their talent levels or we underachieve. And if we do, it's perfectly fair to take a critical look at the way we're building our rosters and the level of responsibility we're putting on freshmen's shoulders.Mitch Henessey said:We were always going to go as far as RayJ, Love, and Bridges carry us. Drew's stated philosophy is "get old and stay old." He's begun supplementing that with high-level freshmen, and we'll see if that ends up being the right direction to go. We're not reading out of the Duke/UK playbook on team building with 4-5 freshmen contributors.bear2be2 said:It's not the same thing. It's not a coincidence that our two most consistent players are a fifth-year senior and a junior. Nor is it a coincidence that our two most inconsistent players are freshmen. Experience matters.Mitch Henessey said:And they'll either get better as the season goes on and be an integral part of our squad down the stretch, or they won't, and we won't reach our potential. That's the same case as if we had a veteran team that had never played together before this season. Life in the transfer portal era.bear2be2 said:Opposing fans aren't invested in the outcomes of our games. We are. This shouldn't be a surprise.Mitch Henessey said:
EDIT: weird emoji. I dunno what that's about.
It's interesting to look at how our message board talks about Walter and Missi versus how opposing fans talk about them. I've looked around a few different places on the Internet and, almost to a T, Big 12 fans say things like this:
About Walter -
"He looks like an NBA player out there."
"That dude is an insane athlete."
"So smooth."
"His stroke looks so effortless."
About Missi -
"OMG, best player on the floor."
"What an athlete!"
"This guy is killing us on both ends."
"Prototype NBA center"
And on and on. I know we'll always be more critical of our own guys, since we are then game in and game out, but we are incredibly fortunate to have both of these young men.
They can enjoy watching Keyonte George go 2 for 10 with two insane shots. We're never going to if it comes in a loss.
Walter and Missi are far less frustrating than George was IMO. But both are just as inconsistent. That's the nature of leaning heavily on first-year players.
I guess it comes down to whether you'd rather have a team with less upside that is likelier to reach their potential, or a team with huge upside that is less likely to get there. I don't really have a clear bias one way or the other, so I'll trust Scott Drew, because he's shown he can build winning teams throughout various NCAA eras.
We will definitely need Walter and Missi to continue to progress to reach our potential. But outside of Sochan, our freshmen have typically become less effective over the course of a long Big 12 season, not more.
That's a grind these players aren't accustomed to and often aren't ready for.
I suspect Walter and Missi will find ways to contribute to another tournament appearance. But we need both to be special to reach the second weekend.
I agree, Mitch. Part of our fan base still believes that one-and-done players should be the stars of the team and dominate college basketball. That is not the case. Walter and Missi have a role-player mentality which is actually quite valuable at the next level. NBA GMs look for players who are self-aware and able to fit into a team concept.Mitch Henessey said:I don't think it's revisionist at all. There are hardly any teams that rely on freshmen to be team leaders. Kentucky has done it, to mixed effect. Memphis has done it and had disastrous results. Our team leaders were always going to be veterans.bear2be2 said:I think this is revisionist history. You don't recruit five-star freshmen with the expectation that they take backseat roles. Either they rise to their talent levels or we underachieve. And if we do, it's perfectly fair to take a critical look at the way we're building our rosters and the level of responsibility we're putting on freshmen's shoulders.Mitch Henessey said:We were always going to go as far as RayJ, Love, and Bridges carry us. Drew's stated philosophy is "get old and stay old." He's begun supplementing that with high-level freshmen, and we'll see if that ends up being the right direction to go. We're not reading out of the Duke/UK playbook on team building with 4-5 freshmen contributors.bear2be2 said:It's not the same thing. It's not a coincidence that our two most consistent players are a fifth-year senior and a junior. Nor is it a coincidence that our two most inconsistent players are freshmen. Experience matters.Mitch Henessey said:And they'll either get better as the season goes on and be an integral part of our squad down the stretch, or they won't, and we won't reach our potential. That's the same case as if we had a veteran team that had never played together before this season. Life in the transfer portal era.bear2be2 said:Opposing fans aren't invested in the outcomes of our games. We are. This shouldn't be a surprise.Mitch Henessey said:
EDIT: weird emoji. I dunno what that's about.
It's interesting to look at how our message board talks about Walter and Missi versus how opposing fans talk about them. I've looked around a few different places on the Internet and, almost to a T, Big 12 fans say things like this:
About Walter -
"He looks like an NBA player out there."
"That dude is an insane athlete."
"So smooth."
"His stroke looks so effortless."
About Missi -
"OMG, best player on the floor."
"What an athlete!"
"This guy is killing us on both ends."
"Prototype NBA center"
And on and on. I know we'll always be more critical of our own guys, since we are then game in and game out, but we are incredibly fortunate to have both of these young men.
They can enjoy watching Keyonte George go 2 for 10 with two insane shots. We're never going to if it comes in a loss.
Walter and Missi are far less frustrating than George was IMO. But both are just as inconsistent. That's the nature of leaning heavily on first-year players.
I guess it comes down to whether you'd rather have a team with less upside that is likelier to reach their potential, or a team with huge upside that is less likely to get there. I don't really have a clear bias one way or the other, so I'll trust Scott Drew, because he's shown he can build winning teams throughout various NCAA eras.
We will definitely need Walter and Missi to continue to progress to reach our potential. But outside of Sochan, our freshmen have typically become less effective over the course of a long Big 12 season, not more.
That's a grind these players aren't accustomed to and often aren't ready for.
I suspect Walter and Missi will find ways to contribute to another tournament appearance. But we need both to be special to reach the second weekend.
And I'm saying (and have been all season) that the way we've been looking to build teams is to have our highly recruited freshmen be on equal footing with our veterans. We didn't recruit Walter, and especially Missi, to carry the bulk of the scoring or leadership load on this team. We're asking them to be productive, high-level starters, which they've demonstrated they can do, in spurts.bear2be2 said:I'm not talking about off-court leadership. I'm talking about on-court impact. You don't recruit five-star, one-and-done freshmen to be role players. There's not time for patience or perspective with players who won't be around to develop. They're here to perform for the one year they're on campus. And if they don't, it's a major problem for any team that relies on them.Mitch Henessey said:I don't think it's revisionist at all. There are hardly any teams that rely on freshmen to be team leaders. Kentucky has done it, to mixed effect. Memphis has done it and had disastrous results. Our team leaders were always going to be veterans.bear2be2 said:I think this is revisionist history. You don't recruit five-star freshmen with the expectation that they take backseat roles. Either they rise to their talent levels or we underachieve. And if we do, it's perfectly fair to take a critical look at the way we're building our rosters and the level of responsibility we're putting on freshmen's shoulders.Mitch Henessey said:We were always going to go as far as RayJ, Love, and Bridges carry us. Drew's stated philosophy is "get old and stay old." He's begun supplementing that with high-level freshmen, and we'll see if that ends up being the right direction to go. We're not reading out of the Duke/UK playbook on team building with 4-5 freshmen contributors.bear2be2 said:It's not the same thing. It's not a coincidence that our two most consistent players are a fifth-year senior and a junior. Nor is it a coincidence that our two most inconsistent players are freshmen. Experience matters.Mitch Henessey said:And they'll either get better as the season goes on and be an integral part of our squad down the stretch, or they won't, and we won't reach our potential. That's the same case as if we had a veteran team that had never played together before this season. Life in the transfer portal era.bear2be2 said:Opposing fans aren't invested in the outcomes of our games. We are. This shouldn't be a surprise.Mitch Henessey said:
EDIT: weird emoji. I dunno what that's about.
It's interesting to look at how our message board talks about Walter and Missi versus how opposing fans talk about them. I've looked around a few different places on the Internet and, almost to a T, Big 12 fans say things like this:
About Walter -
"He looks like an NBA player out there."
"That dude is an insane athlete."
"So smooth."
"His stroke looks so effortless."
About Missi -
"OMG, best player on the floor."
"What an athlete!"
"This guy is killing us on both ends."
"Prototype NBA center"
And on and on. I know we'll always be more critical of our own guys, since we are then game in and game out, but we are incredibly fortunate to have both of these young men.
They can enjoy watching Keyonte George go 2 for 10 with two insane shots. We're never going to if it comes in a loss.
Walter and Missi are far less frustrating than George was IMO. But both are just as inconsistent. That's the nature of leaning heavily on first-year players.
I guess it comes down to whether you'd rather have a team with less upside that is likelier to reach their potential, or a team with huge upside that is less likely to get there. I don't really have a clear bias one way or the other, so I'll trust Scott Drew, because he's shown he can build winning teams throughout various NCAA eras.
We will definitely need Walter and Missi to continue to progress to reach our potential. But outside of Sochan, our freshmen have typically become less effective over the course of a long Big 12 season, not more.
That's a grind these players aren't accustomed to and often aren't ready for.
I suspect Walter and Missi will find ways to contribute to another tournament appearance. But we need both to be special to reach the second weekend.
If we can get that more consistently from them, we can absolutely be a second weekend team.
These players' value at the next level is quite literally irrelevant to this conversation. If your goal is to build a team that can win in March and make deep tournament runs -- and mine is -- all that matters is how they produce for their one year on campus.Crawfoso1973 said:I agree, Mitch. Part of our fan base still believes that one-and-done players should be the stars of the team and dominate college basketball. That is not the case. Walter and Missi have a role-player mentality which is actually quite valuable at the next level. NBA GMs look for players who are self-aware and able to fit into a team concept.Mitch Henessey said:I don't think it's revisionist at all. There are hardly any teams that rely on freshmen to be team leaders. Kentucky has done it, to mixed effect. Memphis has done it and had disastrous results. Our team leaders were always going to be veterans.bear2be2 said:I think this is revisionist history. You don't recruit five-star freshmen with the expectation that they take backseat roles. Either they rise to their talent levels or we underachieve. And if we do, it's perfectly fair to take a critical look at the way we're building our rosters and the level of responsibility we're putting on freshmen's shoulders.Mitch Henessey said:We were always going to go as far as RayJ, Love, and Bridges carry us. Drew's stated philosophy is "get old and stay old." He's begun supplementing that with high-level freshmen, and we'll see if that ends up being the right direction to go. We're not reading out of the Duke/UK playbook on team building with 4-5 freshmen contributors.bear2be2 said:It's not the same thing. It's not a coincidence that our two most consistent players are a fifth-year senior and a junior. Nor is it a coincidence that our two most inconsistent players are freshmen. Experience matters.Mitch Henessey said:And they'll either get better as the season goes on and be an integral part of our squad down the stretch, or they won't, and we won't reach our potential. That's the same case as if we had a veteran team that had never played together before this season. Life in the transfer portal era.bear2be2 said:Opposing fans aren't invested in the outcomes of our games. We are. This shouldn't be a surprise.Mitch Henessey said:
EDIT: weird emoji. I dunno what that's about.
It's interesting to look at how our message board talks about Walter and Missi versus how opposing fans talk about them. I've looked around a few different places on the Internet and, almost to a T, Big 12 fans say things like this:
About Walter -
"He looks like an NBA player out there."
"That dude is an insane athlete."
"So smooth."
"His stroke looks so effortless."
About Missi -
"OMG, best player on the floor."
"What an athlete!"
"This guy is killing us on both ends."
"Prototype NBA center"
And on and on. I know we'll always be more critical of our own guys, since we are then game in and game out, but we are incredibly fortunate to have both of these young men.
They can enjoy watching Keyonte George go 2 for 10 with two insane shots. We're never going to if it comes in a loss.
Walter and Missi are far less frustrating than George was IMO. But both are just as inconsistent. That's the nature of leaning heavily on first-year players.
I guess it comes down to whether you'd rather have a team with less upside that is likelier to reach their potential, or a team with huge upside that is less likely to get there. I don't really have a clear bias one way or the other, so I'll trust Scott Drew, because he's shown he can build winning teams throughout various NCAA eras.
We will definitely need Walter and Missi to continue to progress to reach our potential. But outside of Sochan, our freshmen have typically become less effective over the course of a long Big 12 season, not more.
That's a grind these players aren't accustomed to and often aren't ready for.
I suspect Walter and Missi will find ways to contribute to another tournament appearance. But we need both to be special to reach the second weekend.
And contrary to the tale you guys are trying to weave, we're not recruiting five-star freshmen to be wallflowers or bit players. They're here to produce at a high level and raise our ceiling as a team/program. Thus far, they have not come close to accomplishing that.
Maybe this year will change the trend. If not, I fully expect a litany of excuses.
Missi and Walter are not equals. Nor were the expectations for the two players coming in.Mitch Henessey said:And I'm saying (and have been all season) that the way we've been looking to build teams is to have our highly recruited freshmen be on equal footing with our veterans. We didn't recruit Walter, and especially Missi, to carry the bulk of the scoring or leadership load on this team. We're asking them to be productive, high-level starters, which they've demonstrated they can do, in spurts.bear2be2 said:I'm not talking about off-court leadership. I'm talking about on-court impact. You don't recruit five-star, one-and-done freshmen to be role players. There's not time for patience or perspective with players who won't be around to develop. They're here to perform for the one year they're on campus. And if they don't, it's a major problem for any team that relies on them.Mitch Henessey said:I don't think it's revisionist at all. There are hardly any teams that rely on freshmen to be team leaders. Kentucky has done it, to mixed effect. Memphis has done it and had disastrous results. Our team leaders were always going to be veterans.bear2be2 said:I think this is revisionist history. You don't recruit five-star freshmen with the expectation that they take backseat roles. Either they rise to their talent levels or we underachieve. And if we do, it's perfectly fair to take a critical look at the way we're building our rosters and the level of responsibility we're putting on freshmen's shoulders.Mitch Henessey said:We were always going to go as far as RayJ, Love, and Bridges carry us. Drew's stated philosophy is "get old and stay old." He's begun supplementing that with high-level freshmen, and we'll see if that ends up being the right direction to go. We're not reading out of the Duke/UK playbook on team building with 4-5 freshmen contributors.bear2be2 said:It's not the same thing. It's not a coincidence that our two most consistent players are a fifth-year senior and a junior. Nor is it a coincidence that our two most inconsistent players are freshmen. Experience matters.Mitch Henessey said:And they'll either get better as the season goes on and be an integral part of our squad down the stretch, or they won't, and we won't reach our potential. That's the same case as if we had a veteran team that had never played together before this season. Life in the transfer portal era.bear2be2 said:Opposing fans aren't invested in the outcomes of our games. We are. This shouldn't be a surprise.Mitch Henessey said:
EDIT: weird emoji. I dunno what that's about.
It's interesting to look at how our message board talks about Walter and Missi versus how opposing fans talk about them. I've looked around a few different places on the Internet and, almost to a T, Big 12 fans say things like this:
About Walter -
"He looks like an NBA player out there."
"That dude is an insane athlete."
"So smooth."
"His stroke looks so effortless."
About Missi -
"OMG, best player on the floor."
"What an athlete!"
"This guy is killing us on both ends."
"Prototype NBA center"
And on and on. I know we'll always be more critical of our own guys, since we are then game in and game out, but we are incredibly fortunate to have both of these young men.
They can enjoy watching Keyonte George go 2 for 10 with two insane shots. We're never going to if it comes in a loss.
Walter and Missi are far less frustrating than George was IMO. But both are just as inconsistent. That's the nature of leaning heavily on first-year players.
I guess it comes down to whether you'd rather have a team with less upside that is likelier to reach their potential, or a team with huge upside that is less likely to get there. I don't really have a clear bias one way or the other, so I'll trust Scott Drew, because he's shown he can build winning teams throughout various NCAA eras.
We will definitely need Walter and Missi to continue to progress to reach our potential. But outside of Sochan, our freshmen have typically become less effective over the course of a long Big 12 season, not more.
That's a grind these players aren't accustomed to and often aren't ready for.
I suspect Walter and Missi will find ways to contribute to another tournament appearance. But we need both to be special to reach the second weekend.
If we can get that more consistently from them, we can absolutely be a second weekend team.
But your characterization of the hype around Walter and expectations for his impact is completely off. Total revisionist history.
You're building a nice strawman here. No one is making the argument that we're asking anyone to be a wallflower. Your hate boner for Keyonte George has led to long term side effects, and you seem to now disdain all freshmen, for some reason.bear2be2 said:These players' value at the next level is quite literally irrelevant to this conversation. If your goal is to build a team that can win in March and make deep tournament runs -- and mine is -- all that matters is how they produce for their one year on campus.Crawfoso1973 said:I agree, Mitch. Part of our fan base still believes that one-and-done players should be the stars of the team and dominate college basketball. That is not the case. Walter and Missi have a role-player mentality which is actually quite valuable at the next level. NBA GMs look for players who are self-aware and able to fit into a team concept.Mitch Henessey said:I don't think it's revisionist at all. There are hardly any teams that rely on freshmen to be team leaders. Kentucky has done it, to mixed effect. Memphis has done it and had disastrous results. Our team leaders were always going to be veterans.bear2be2 said:I think this is revisionist history. You don't recruit five-star freshmen with the expectation that they take backseat roles. Either they rise to their talent levels or we underachieve. And if we do, it's perfectly fair to take a critical look at the way we're building our rosters and the level of responsibility we're putting on freshmen's shoulders.Mitch Henessey said:We were always going to go as far as RayJ, Love, and Bridges carry us. Drew's stated philosophy is "get old and stay old." He's begun supplementing that with high-level freshmen, and we'll see if that ends up being the right direction to go. We're not reading out of the Duke/UK playbook on team building with 4-5 freshmen contributors.bear2be2 said:It's not the same thing. It's not a coincidence that our two most consistent players are a fifth-year senior and a junior. Nor is it a coincidence that our two most inconsistent players are freshmen. Experience matters.Mitch Henessey said:And they'll either get better as the season goes on and be an integral part of our squad down the stretch, or they won't, and we won't reach our potential. That's the same case as if we had a veteran team that had never played together before this season. Life in the transfer portal era.bear2be2 said:Opposing fans aren't invested in the outcomes of our games. We are. This shouldn't be a surprise.Mitch Henessey said:
EDIT: weird emoji. I dunno what that's about.
It's interesting to look at how our message board talks about Walter and Missi versus how opposing fans talk about them. I've looked around a few different places on the Internet and, almost to a T, Big 12 fans say things like this:
About Walter -
"He looks like an NBA player out there."
"That dude is an insane athlete."
"So smooth."
"His stroke looks so effortless."
About Missi -
"OMG, best player on the floor."
"What an athlete!"
"This guy is killing us on both ends."
"Prototype NBA center"
And on and on. I know we'll always be more critical of our own guys, since we are then game in and game out, but we are incredibly fortunate to have both of these young men.
They can enjoy watching Keyonte George go 2 for 10 with two insane shots. We're never going to if it comes in a loss.
Walter and Missi are far less frustrating than George was IMO. But both are just as inconsistent. That's the nature of leaning heavily on first-year players.
I guess it comes down to whether you'd rather have a team with less upside that is likelier to reach their potential, or a team with huge upside that is less likely to get there. I don't really have a clear bias one way or the other, so I'll trust Scott Drew, because he's shown he can build winning teams throughout various NCAA eras.
We will definitely need Walter and Missi to continue to progress to reach our potential. But outside of Sochan, our freshmen have typically become less effective over the course of a long Big 12 season, not more.
That's a grind these players aren't accustomed to and often aren't ready for.
I suspect Walter and Missi will find ways to contribute to another tournament appearance. But we need both to be special to reach the second weekend.
And contrary to the tale you guys are trying to weave, we're not recruiting five-star freshmen to be wallflowers or bit players. They're here to produce at a high level and raise our ceiling as a team/program. Thus far, they have not come close to accomplishing that.
Maybe this year will change the trend. If not, I fully expect a litany of excuses.
I don't hate or disdain anyone. I like Walter and Missi as players. I just don't think teams that rely as heavily as we have on freshmen the last three years are built to win in March.Mitch Henessey said:You're building a nice strawman here. No one is making the argument that we're asking anyone to be a wallflower. Your hate boner for Keyonte George has led to long term side effects, and you seem to now disdain all freshmen, for some reason.bear2be2 said:These players' value at the next level is quite literally irrelevant to this conversation. If your goal is to build a team that can win in March and make deep tournament runs -- and mine is -- all that matters is how they produce for their one year on campus.Crawfoso1973 said:I agree, Mitch. Part of our fan base still believes that one-and-done players should be the stars of the team and dominate college basketball. That is not the case. Walter and Missi have a role-player mentality which is actually quite valuable at the next level. NBA GMs look for players who are self-aware and able to fit into a team concept.Mitch Henessey said:I don't think it's revisionist at all. There are hardly any teams that rely on freshmen to be team leaders. Kentucky has done it, to mixed effect. Memphis has done it and had disastrous results. Our team leaders were always going to be veterans.bear2be2 said:I think this is revisionist history. You don't recruit five-star freshmen with the expectation that they take backseat roles. Either they rise to their talent levels or we underachieve. And if we do, it's perfectly fair to take a critical look at the way we're building our rosters and the level of responsibility we're putting on freshmen's shoulders.Mitch Henessey said:We were always going to go as far as RayJ, Love, and Bridges carry us. Drew's stated philosophy is "get old and stay old." He's begun supplementing that with high-level freshmen, and we'll see if that ends up being the right direction to go. We're not reading out of the Duke/UK playbook on team building with 4-5 freshmen contributors.bear2be2 said:It's not the same thing. It's not a coincidence that our two most consistent players are a fifth-year senior and a junior. Nor is it a coincidence that our two most inconsistent players are freshmen. Experience matters.Mitch Henessey said:And they'll either get better as the season goes on and be an integral part of our squad down the stretch, or they won't, and we won't reach our potential. That's the same case as if we had a veteran team that had never played together before this season. Life in the transfer portal era.bear2be2 said:Opposing fans aren't invested in the outcomes of our games. We are. This shouldn't be a surprise.Mitch Henessey said:
EDIT: weird emoji. I dunno what that's about.
It's interesting to look at how our message board talks about Walter and Missi versus how opposing fans talk about them. I've looked around a few different places on the Internet and, almost to a T, Big 12 fans say things like this:
About Walter -
"He looks like an NBA player out there."
"That dude is an insane athlete."
"So smooth."
"His stroke looks so effortless."
About Missi -
"OMG, best player on the floor."
"What an athlete!"
"This guy is killing us on both ends."
"Prototype NBA center"
And on and on. I know we'll always be more critical of our own guys, since we are then game in and game out, but we are incredibly fortunate to have both of these young men.
They can enjoy watching Keyonte George go 2 for 10 with two insane shots. We're never going to if it comes in a loss.
Walter and Missi are far less frustrating than George was IMO. But both are just as inconsistent. That's the nature of leaning heavily on first-year players.
I guess it comes down to whether you'd rather have a team with less upside that is likelier to reach their potential, or a team with huge upside that is less likely to get there. I don't really have a clear bias one way or the other, so I'll trust Scott Drew, because he's shown he can build winning teams throughout various NCAA eras.
We will definitely need Walter and Missi to continue to progress to reach our potential. But outside of Sochan, our freshmen have typically become less effective over the course of a long Big 12 season, not more.
That's a grind these players aren't accustomed to and often aren't ready for.
I suspect Walter and Missi will find ways to contribute to another tournament appearance. But we need both to be special to reach the second weekend.
And contrary to the tale you guys are trying to weave, we're not recruiting five-star freshmen to be wallflowers or bit players. They're here to produce at a high level and raise our ceiling as a team/program. Thus far, they have not come close to accomplishing that.
Maybe this year will change the trend. If not, I fully expect a litany of excuses.
If/when we get knocked out in the first weekend again, I'll fully expect the usual suspects to tell me why next year with Edgecombe will be different and then make the same excuses when it's not.
And if I'm wrong about this bunch, I will eat my crow quite happily. But I see a lot of teams in our league currently who are better and tougher than we are.
Ok. That's fair. I didn't realize you were clairvoyant, though.bear2be2 said:I don't hate or disdain anyone. I like Walter and Missi as players. I just don't think teams that rely as heavily as we have on freshmen the last three years are built to win in March.Mitch Henessey said:You're building a nice strawman here. No one is making the argument that we're asking anyone to be a wallflower. Your hate boner for Keyonte George has led to long term side effects, and you seem to now disdain all freshmen, for some reason.bear2be2 said:These players' value at the next level is quite literally irrelevant to this conversation. If your goal is to build a team that can win in March and make deep tournament runs -- and mine is -- all that matters is how they produce for their one year on campus.Crawfoso1973 said:I agree, Mitch. Part of our fan base still believes that one-and-done players should be the stars of the team and dominate college basketball. That is not the case. Walter and Missi have a role-player mentality which is actually quite valuable at the next level. NBA GMs look for players who are self-aware and able to fit into a team concept.Mitch Henessey said:I don't think it's revisionist at all. There are hardly any teams that rely on freshmen to be team leaders. Kentucky has done it, to mixed effect. Memphis has done it and had disastrous results. Our team leaders were always going to be veterans.bear2be2 said:I think this is revisionist history. You don't recruit five-star freshmen with the expectation that they take backseat roles. Either they rise to their talent levels or we underachieve. And if we do, it's perfectly fair to take a critical look at the way we're building our rosters and the level of responsibility we're putting on freshmen's shoulders.Mitch Henessey said:We were always going to go as far as RayJ, Love, and Bridges carry us. Drew's stated philosophy is "get old and stay old." He's begun supplementing that with high-level freshmen, and we'll see if that ends up being the right direction to go. We're not reading out of the Duke/UK playbook on team building with 4-5 freshmen contributors.bear2be2 said:It's not the same thing. It's not a coincidence that our two most consistent players are a fifth-year senior and a junior. Nor is it a coincidence that our two most inconsistent players are freshmen. Experience matters.Mitch Henessey said:And they'll either get better as the season goes on and be an integral part of our squad down the stretch, or they won't, and we won't reach our potential. That's the same case as if we had a veteran team that had never played together before this season. Life in the transfer portal era.bear2be2 said:Opposing fans aren't invested in the outcomes of our games. We are. This shouldn't be a surprise.Mitch Henessey said:
EDIT: weird emoji. I dunno what that's about.
It's interesting to look at how our message board talks about Walter and Missi versus how opposing fans talk about them. I've looked around a few different places on the Internet and, almost to a T, Big 12 fans say things like this:
About Walter -
"He looks like an NBA player out there."
"That dude is an insane athlete."
"So smooth."
"His stroke looks so effortless."
About Missi -
"OMG, best player on the floor."
"What an athlete!"
"This guy is killing us on both ends."
"Prototype NBA center"
And on and on. I know we'll always be more critical of our own guys, since we are then game in and game out, but we are incredibly fortunate to have both of these young men.
They can enjoy watching Keyonte George go 2 for 10 with two insane shots. We're never going to if it comes in a loss.
Walter and Missi are far less frustrating than George was IMO. But both are just as inconsistent. That's the nature of leaning heavily on first-year players.
I guess it comes down to whether you'd rather have a team with less upside that is likelier to reach their potential, or a team with huge upside that is less likely to get there. I don't really have a clear bias one way or the other, so I'll trust Scott Drew, because he's shown he can build winning teams throughout various NCAA eras.
We will definitely need Walter and Missi to continue to progress to reach our potential. But outside of Sochan, our freshmen have typically become less effective over the course of a long Big 12 season, not more.
That's a grind these players aren't accustomed to and often aren't ready for.
I suspect Walter and Missi will find ways to contribute to another tournament appearance. But we need both to be special to reach the second weekend.
And contrary to the tale you guys are trying to weave, we're not recruiting five-star freshmen to be wallflowers or bit players. They're here to produce at a high level and raise our ceiling as a team/program. Thus far, they have not come close to accomplishing that.
Maybe this year will change the trend. If not, I fully expect a litany of excuses.
If/when we get knocked out in the first weekend again, I'll fully expect the usual suspects to tell me why next year with Edgecombe will be different and then make the same excuses when it's not.
There is a bias against freshman by some on this board. JW & YM have been huge contributors.
I pointed out in another thread some upper classmen not hitting key free throws costing us a game. Let's spread the criticism fairly if we're going to criticize our players.
The only reason we have a chance to win it all is our freshman. If Drew benches them we have no chance. Not true of some other rotation players.
I pointed out in another thread some upper classmen not hitting key free throws costing us a game. Let's spread the criticism fairly if we're going to criticize our players.
The only reason we have a chance to win it all is our freshman. If Drew benches them we have no chance. Not true of some other rotation players.
I never claimed to be. But history and precedent are not on our side.Mitch Henessey said:Ok. That's fair. I didn't realize you were clairvoyant, though.bear2be2 said:I don't hate or disdain anyone. I like Walter and Missi as players. I just don't think teams that rely as heavily as we have on freshmen the last three years are built to win in March.Mitch Henessey said:You're building a nice strawman here. No one is making the argument that we're asking anyone to be a wallflower. Your hate boner for Keyonte George has led to long term side effects, and you seem to now disdain all freshmen, for some reason.bear2be2 said:These players' value at the next level is quite literally irrelevant to this conversation. If your goal is to build a team that can win in March and make deep tournament runs -- and mine is -- all that matters is how they produce for their one year on campus.Crawfoso1973 said:I agree, Mitch. Part of our fan base still believes that one-and-done players should be the stars of the team and dominate college basketball. That is not the case. Walter and Missi have a role-player mentality which is actually quite valuable at the next level. NBA GMs look for players who are self-aware and able to fit into a team concept.Mitch Henessey said:I don't think it's revisionist at all. There are hardly any teams that rely on freshmen to be team leaders. Kentucky has done it, to mixed effect. Memphis has done it and had disastrous results. Our team leaders were always going to be veterans.bear2be2 said:I think this is revisionist history. You don't recruit five-star freshmen with the expectation that they take backseat roles. Either they rise to their talent levels or we underachieve. And if we do, it's perfectly fair to take a critical look at the way we're building our rosters and the level of responsibility we're putting on freshmen's shoulders.Mitch Henessey said:We were always going to go as far as RayJ, Love, and Bridges carry us. Drew's stated philosophy is "get old and stay old." He's begun supplementing that with high-level freshmen, and we'll see if that ends up being the right direction to go. We're not reading out of the Duke/UK playbook on team building with 4-5 freshmen contributors.bear2be2 said:It's not the same thing. It's not a coincidence that our two most consistent players are a fifth-year senior and a junior. Nor is it a coincidence that our two most inconsistent players are freshmen. Experience matters.Mitch Henessey said:And they'll either get better as the season goes on and be an integral part of our squad down the stretch, or they won't, and we won't reach our potential. That's the same case as if we had a veteran team that had never played together before this season. Life in the transfer portal era.bear2be2 said:Opposing fans aren't invested in the outcomes of our games. We are. This shouldn't be a surprise.Mitch Henessey said:
EDIT: weird emoji. I dunno what that's about.
It's interesting to look at how our message board talks about Walter and Missi versus how opposing fans talk about them. I've looked around a few different places on the Internet and, almost to a T, Big 12 fans say things like this:
About Walter -
"He looks like an NBA player out there."
"That dude is an insane athlete."
"So smooth."
"His stroke looks so effortless."
About Missi -
"OMG, best player on the floor."
"What an athlete!"
"This guy is killing us on both ends."
"Prototype NBA center"
And on and on. I know we'll always be more critical of our own guys, since we are then game in and game out, but we are incredibly fortunate to have both of these young men.
They can enjoy watching Keyonte George go 2 for 10 with two insane shots. We're never going to if it comes in a loss.
Walter and Missi are far less frustrating than George was IMO. But both are just as inconsistent. That's the nature of leaning heavily on first-year players.
I guess it comes down to whether you'd rather have a team with less upside that is likelier to reach their potential, or a team with huge upside that is less likely to get there. I don't really have a clear bias one way or the other, so I'll trust Scott Drew, because he's shown he can build winning teams throughout various NCAA eras.
We will definitely need Walter and Missi to continue to progress to reach our potential. But outside of Sochan, our freshmen have typically become less effective over the course of a long Big 12 season, not more.
That's a grind these players aren't accustomed to and often aren't ready for.
I suspect Walter and Missi will find ways to contribute to another tournament appearance. But we need both to be special to reach the second weekend.
And contrary to the tale you guys are trying to weave, we're not recruiting five-star freshmen to be wallflowers or bit players. They're here to produce at a high level and raise our ceiling as a team/program. Thus far, they have not come close to accomplishing that.
Maybe this year will change the trend. If not, I fully expect a litany of excuses.
If/when we get knocked out in the first weekend again, I'll fully expect the usual suspects to tell me why next year with Edgecombe will be different and then make the same excuses when it's not.
Grown men win in college basketball.
Your last paragraph, while on brand, is completely delusional.BUCANDOIT82 said:
There is a bias against freshman by some on this board. JW & YM have been huge contributors.
I pointed out in another thread some upper classmen not hitting key free throws costing us a game. Let's spread the criticism fairly if we're going to criticize our players.
The only reason we have a chance to win it all is our freshman. If Drew benches them we have no chance. Not true of some other rotation players.
And no one is suggesting we bench anyone. We sink or swim with the freshmen. That's how we built our roster.
We are not relying on freshman that heavily, though. We have veteran players in place expected to take the lead. We only have 2 freshman rotation players and Key was our only one-and-done last year. Our upperclassmen have let us down moreso if you are looking for a scapegoat. It's so odd that you and a couple other guys pounce on every opportunity to blame the freshman any time the team falls short of your expectations.bear2be2 said:I don't hate or disdain anyone. I like Walter and Missi as players. I just don't think teams that rely as heavily as we have on freshmen the last three years are built to win in March.Mitch Henessey said:You're building a nice strawman here. No one is making the argument that we're asking anyone to be a wallflower. Your hate boner for Keyonte George has led to long term side effects, and you seem to now disdain all freshmen, for some reason.bear2be2 said:These players' value at the next level is quite literally irrelevant to this conversation. If your goal is to build a team that can win in March and make deep tournament runs -- and mine is -- all that matters is how they produce for their one year on campus.Crawfoso1973 said:I agree, Mitch. Part of our fan base still believes that one-and-done players should be the stars of the team and dominate college basketball. That is not the case. Walter and Missi have a role-player mentality which is actually quite valuable at the next level. NBA GMs look for players who are self-aware and able to fit into a team concept.Mitch Henessey said:I don't think it's revisionist at all. There are hardly any teams that rely on freshmen to be team leaders. Kentucky has done it, to mixed effect. Memphis has done it and had disastrous results. Our team leaders were always going to be veterans.bear2be2 said:I think this is revisionist history. You don't recruit five-star freshmen with the expectation that they take backseat roles. Either they rise to their talent levels or we underachieve. And if we do, it's perfectly fair to take a critical look at the way we're building our rosters and the level of responsibility we're putting on freshmen's shoulders.Mitch Henessey said:We were always going to go as far as RayJ, Love, and Bridges carry us. Drew's stated philosophy is "get old and stay old." He's begun supplementing that with high-level freshmen, and we'll see if that ends up being the right direction to go. We're not reading out of the Duke/UK playbook on team building with 4-5 freshmen contributors.bear2be2 said:It's not the same thing. It's not a coincidence that our two most consistent players are a fifth-year senior and a junior. Nor is it a coincidence that our two most inconsistent players are freshmen. Experience matters.Mitch Henessey said:And they'll either get better as the season goes on and be an integral part of our squad down the stretch, or they won't, and we won't reach our potential. That's the same case as if we had a veteran team that had never played together before this season. Life in the transfer portal era.bear2be2 said:Opposing fans aren't invested in the outcomes of our games. We are. This shouldn't be a surprise.Mitch Henessey said:
EDIT: weird emoji. I dunno what that's about.
It's interesting to look at how our message board talks about Walter and Missi versus how opposing fans talk about them. I've looked around a few different places on the Internet and, almost to a T, Big 12 fans say things like this:
About Walter -
"He looks like an NBA player out there."
"That dude is an insane athlete."
"So smooth."
"His stroke looks so effortless."
About Missi -
"OMG, best player on the floor."
"What an athlete!"
"This guy is killing us on both ends."
"Prototype NBA center"
And on and on. I know we'll always be more critical of our own guys, since we are then game in and game out, but we are incredibly fortunate to have both of these young men.
They can enjoy watching Keyonte George go 2 for 10 with two insane shots. We're never going to if it comes in a loss.
Walter and Missi are far less frustrating than George was IMO. But both are just as inconsistent. That's the nature of leaning heavily on first-year players.
I guess it comes down to whether you'd rather have a team with less upside that is likelier to reach their potential, or a team with huge upside that is less likely to get there. I don't really have a clear bias one way or the other, so I'll trust Scott Drew, because he's shown he can build winning teams throughout various NCAA eras.
We will definitely need Walter and Missi to continue to progress to reach our potential. But outside of Sochan, our freshmen have typically become less effective over the course of a long Big 12 season, not more.
That's a grind these players aren't accustomed to and often aren't ready for.
I suspect Walter and Missi will find ways to contribute to another tournament appearance. But we need both to be special to reach the second weekend.
And contrary to the tale you guys are trying to weave, we're not recruiting five-star freshmen to be wallflowers or bit players. They're here to produce at a high level and raise our ceiling as a team/program. Thus far, they have not come close to accomplishing that.
Maybe this year will change the trend. If not, I fully expect a litany of excuses.
If/when we get knocked out in the first weekend again, I'll fully expect the usual suspects to tell me why next year with Edgecombe will be different and then make the same excuses when it's not.
And if I'm wrong about this bunch, I will eat my crow quite happily. But I see a lot of teams in our league currently who are better and tougher than we are.
They make up 40 percent of our starting lineup, are second and sixth among our minutes leaders and first and sixth among our leaders for field goal attempts.Crawfoso1973 said:We are not relying on freshman that heavily, though. We have veteran players in place expected to take the lead. We only have 2 freshman rotation players and Key was our only one-and-done last year. Our upperclassmen have let us down moreso if you are looking for a scapegoat. It's so odd that you and a couple other guys pounce on every opportunity to blame the freshman any time the team falls short of your expectations.bear2be2 said:I don't hate or disdain anyone. I like Walter and Missi as players. I just don't think teams that rely as heavily as we have on freshmen the last three years are built to win in March.Mitch Henessey said:You're building a nice strawman here. No one is making the argument that we're asking anyone to be a wallflower. Your hate boner for Keyonte George has led to long term side effects, and you seem to now disdain all freshmen, for some reason.bear2be2 said:These players' value at the next level is quite literally irrelevant to this conversation. If your goal is to build a team that can win in March and make deep tournament runs -- and mine is -- all that matters is how they produce for their one year on campus.Crawfoso1973 said:I agree, Mitch. Part of our fan base still believes that one-and-done players should be the stars of the team and dominate college basketball. That is not the case. Walter and Missi have a role-player mentality which is actually quite valuable at the next level. NBA GMs look for players who are self-aware and able to fit into a team concept.Mitch Henessey said:I don't think it's revisionist at all. There are hardly any teams that rely on freshmen to be team leaders. Kentucky has done it, to mixed effect. Memphis has done it and had disastrous results. Our team leaders were always going to be veterans.bear2be2 said:I think this is revisionist history. You don't recruit five-star freshmen with the expectation that they take backseat roles. Either they rise to their talent levels or we underachieve. And if we do, it's perfectly fair to take a critical look at the way we're building our rosters and the level of responsibility we're putting on freshmen's shoulders.Mitch Henessey said:We were always going to go as far as RayJ, Love, and Bridges carry us. Drew's stated philosophy is "get old and stay old." He's begun supplementing that with high-level freshmen, and we'll see if that ends up being the right direction to go. We're not reading out of the Duke/UK playbook on team building with 4-5 freshmen contributors.bear2be2 said:It's not the same thing. It's not a coincidence that our two most consistent players are a fifth-year senior and a junior. Nor is it a coincidence that our two most inconsistent players are freshmen. Experience matters.Mitch Henessey said:And they'll either get better as the season goes on and be an integral part of our squad down the stretch, or they won't, and we won't reach our potential. That's the same case as if we had a veteran team that had never played together before this season. Life in the transfer portal era.bear2be2 said:Opposing fans aren't invested in the outcomes of our games. We are. This shouldn't be a surprise.Mitch Henessey said:
EDIT: weird emoji. I dunno what that's about.
It's interesting to look at how our message board talks about Walter and Missi versus how opposing fans talk about them. I've looked around a few different places on the Internet and, almost to a T, Big 12 fans say things like this:
About Walter -
"He looks like an NBA player out there."
"That dude is an insane athlete."
"So smooth."
"His stroke looks so effortless."
About Missi -
"OMG, best player on the floor."
"What an athlete!"
"This guy is killing us on both ends."
"Prototype NBA center"
And on and on. I know we'll always be more critical of our own guys, since we are then game in and game out, but we are incredibly fortunate to have both of these young men.
They can enjoy watching Keyonte George go 2 for 10 with two insane shots. We're never going to if it comes in a loss.
Walter and Missi are far less frustrating than George was IMO. But both are just as inconsistent. That's the nature of leaning heavily on first-year players.
I guess it comes down to whether you'd rather have a team with less upside that is likelier to reach their potential, or a team with huge upside that is less likely to get there. I don't really have a clear bias one way or the other, so I'll trust Scott Drew, because he's shown he can build winning teams throughout various NCAA eras.
We will definitely need Walter and Missi to continue to progress to reach our potential. But outside of Sochan, our freshmen have typically become less effective over the course of a long Big 12 season, not more.
That's a grind these players aren't accustomed to and often aren't ready for.
I suspect Walter and Missi will find ways to contribute to another tournament appearance. But we need both to be special to reach the second weekend.
And contrary to the tale you guys are trying to weave, we're not recruiting five-star freshmen to be wallflowers or bit players. They're here to produce at a high level and raise our ceiling as a team/program. Thus far, they have not come close to accomplishing that.
Maybe this year will change the trend. If not, I fully expect a litany of excuses.
If/when we get knocked out in the first weekend again, I'll fully expect the usual suspects to tell me why next year with Edgecombe will be different and then make the same excuses when it's not.
And if I'm wrong about this bunch, I will eat my crow quite happily. But I see a lot of teams in our league currently who are better and tougher than we are.
Some of you guys are twisting yourselves into pretzels right now with these mental gymnastics.
The issue is the criticism is not balanced.
And that is fine. They are quality rotation players with inconsistencies and flashes of greatness. My argument is that the coaches did not bring them in with the expectation that they would come in and dominate the big 12 and lead the team. We need the veteran players to do that. RayJ was brought in the be the engine to drive the team,and so far has been adequate in that role. Love has been great and continues to get better. However Bridges (grown man) has underperformed relative to his talent. Much more was expected from Nunn and Lohner (grown men) who have been busts. Grimes (another grown man) quit and left the team. If you are looking to blame and scapegoat players when the team doesn't meet your expectations, there is plenty of blame to go around.
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