You are correct- I apologize for the criticism
Lady Bears are a mess!
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Last: 1 yr ago by baylor1984
KState without Lee and UT without Harmon. BU should be taking advantage and putting another conference championship on their resume… our focus has been disappointing for sure
Problem is the rest of the conference aren't patsies anymore. And it is going to get tougher next year. And we did take advantage of Harmon being out, although I am not convinced on that day she would have made a difference because Booker wouldn't have been in position to do what she did. Make free throws we beat KSU as well.Eball said:
KState without Lee and UT without Harmon. BU should be taking advantage and putting another conference championship on their resume… our focus has been disappointing for sure
Unless we are the players or coaches how can we say anything about focus? You can be as "focused" (whatever that means) as you want to be and shots still not fall, which has been our biggest problem of late. The defense was very "focused" on Monday night forcing 20 turnovers. Using fan standards there were many times in year's past where the team could probably be accused of a "disappointing focus" when we didn't blow out teams as some expected. Then the opposition just wasn't good enough for it to matter.
Disagree with your 1st sentence. Bottom half of the league is still loaded with patsies. Aside from KSU and Tx no one aside from BU has any real chance of doing much in the dance. It's still a rather mediocre league overall. It will improve next year assuming Utah continues their climb
BU82EX said:
As the season progresses you typically get better, we are getting worse. I'm not sure what blame our coach has in all this, but she shouldn't escape guilt. I'm sorry, but Sarah Andrews is out of shape. I know she was injured early, but my goodness. Basketball IQ for this team - zilch! Tonight Buggs did not score and Jada Walker had 2 points and Sarah had 6 points on 2 of 8 shooting (0-4 from 3). We had 20 turnovers, shot 21% from 3pt and 53% from FT line and we had a whopping 10 assist. Our offense against the zone? 16 points in the second half.
I was excited for CNC getting hired. But, last year extremely concerned watching her game day coaching. Now this year, holy crap I am extremely concerned. Texas missing their star and struggled to win, can't beat KSU without their star, did the job beating Utah without their star-what happens when we play them again?
Not sure CNC can fix this, this is her style and she just rides or dies with it.
I wonder about CO next year. I looked at their roster. They have several seniors and grads, but I don't know if these are their main players. They would probably dominate the conference this year. Theoretically based on performance the past few years, AZ, CO and Utah will bring a lot to the conference and more than balance out losing UT and OU if they are anywhere near where they have been.IowaBear said:
Disagree with your 1st sentence. Bottom half of the league is still loaded with patsies. Aside from KSU and Tx no one aside from BU has any real chance of doing much in the dance. It's still a rather mediocre league overall. It will improve next year assuming Utah continues their climb
Conference championships in the future will be difficult and multiple year championship runs probably not realistic between the growing parity and the ramifications of the portal. But, I think the top teams in the conference will overall be better than what we have generally had in the past and not be snubbed as we were in seeding because of the perception of the strength of the Big XII historically.
Totally forgot about CO!! I think they're one of if not the oldest team in WBB this year. Could be wrong on that. Regardless they lose a ton after this year. I bet they take a step back next year. At least to some degree. They will have a ton of talent to replace.
AZ is the mystery to me. They've show great flashes but haven't gotten back to that F4 form from a few years back
AZ is the mystery to me. They've show great flashes but haven't gotten back to that F4 form from a few years back
For whatever reason people like to confuse parity with everyone being good. The rest of the Big 12 minus the top 3 or 4 are not very good. The top just has less separation from the rest, causing some of the parity. With Texas and Cats stars out, it makes it even closer.
No apologies to me needed. I was sort of right there with you until I heard the presser. My thought changed to, "Well, can't blame the kid if that was what she was coached to do. Just didn't work this time." Thought you might feel same way and wanted to share.HuttoBear said:
You are correct- I apologize for the criticism
I think we are ALL on the same page as far as stunned and disappointed in play/outcomes recently and want our winning team back. Sure the players and staff want that, too. Fingers crossed.
A thing you have to consider when you talk about "stars" being out is that the team was not playing with 4 players on the court. Before the "star" being there makes a difference they have to first duplicate what their replacement did. Anything beyond that is the difference. And of course how they would have changed the game is impossible to quantify or even objectively predict. Put any different player on the court for any length of time and it changes the game, possibly the winner of the game.franke said:
For whatever reason people like to confuse parity with everyone being good. The rest of the Big 12 minus the top 3 or 4 are not very good. The top just has less separation from the rest, causing some of the parity. With Texas and Cats stars out, it makes it even closer.
A couple of examples. Let's suppose KSU had had Lee. Would they have switched to zone? One of Lee's replacements was outstanding and I don't think she had played much prior. Had Texas had Harmon, would Booker have had what some called a breakout game and what kind of game would Harmon have, they are not all good ones?
Injuries are a fact and non-injury absences (sitting on the bench with fouls) also affect things. On Monday night, yes Lee was out, but Buggs and Edwards only played half the game because of early foul trouble, 24 minutes and 23 minutes respectively. How did their absence affect the game? Someone above mentioned playing Utah without their "star". Pili played half the game because of foul trouble. She was out a lot in the first half, but pretty much played the entire second half. We still beat them in the second half.
Not trying to be confrontational, but what did you expect from any new coach coming in with a roster left with only 5 players from the year before, the only HS recruit that was committed but was having second thoughts before the coaching change, and with the change occurring all the relationships with HS players that had been developed with the coach over years some starting in middle school completely blown up? I have detailed my thoughts on this on other threads so I won't repeat it here, but we had a mess behind the curtain that was awaiting the departure of that senior class.Gametime said:BU82EX said:
As the season progresses you typically get better, we are getting worse. I'm not sure what blame our coach has in all this, but she shouldn't escape guilt. I'm sorry, but Sarah Andrews is out of shape. I know she was injured early, but my goodness. Basketball IQ for this team - zilch! Tonight Buggs did not score and Jada Walker had 2 points and Sarah had 6 points on 2 of 8 shooting (0-4 from 3). We had 20 turnovers, shot 21% from 3pt and 53% from FT line and we had a whopping 10 assist. Our offense against the zone? 16 points in the second half.
I was excited for CNC getting hired. But, last year extremely concerned watching her game day coaching. Now this year, holy crap I am extremely concerned. Texas missing their star and struggled to win, can't beat KSU without their star, did the job beating Utah without their star-what happens when we play them again?
Not sure CNC can fix this, this is her style and she just rides or dies with it.
Why should Baylor be any different than what happened at Tenn, ND, UT and others that lost an elite coach? And they knew that it was going to happen well in advance, not have it dropped in their lap out of the blue. It takes time to recover from this. It doesn't happen overnight. The portal helps, but it doesn't solve all the problems because in most cases it is a revolving door. It is going to take some years to build up the HS pipeline that was already faltering for us before KM left. We were depending more and more on transfers. I think most great teams still are benefiting from the 4-year player that has grown up through the program. And those relationships have to start in middle and early high school. I don't like that it will take time, but I don't see any quick fix. If there was, those schools I mentioned above would have not struggled to get back to where they were, some still not back.
Concerning the style of play, what would you do otherwise given the stature of the team? If we were hitting open shots lately we would not even be having this discussion. I have no doubt that recruiting efforts both HS and portal (short term band-aid IMO), are geared to have the type of player to play this offense.
I think my disappointment has been in fans expecting things to go merrily along as they had with no bumps in the road. Other schools' experiences illustrate that is not even remotely realistic. I don't think we will ever enjoy the dominance in this conference that we enjoyed in the past because the conference is going to be much stronger in the future. I would be saying the same thing if the coaching change had not occurred.
blackie said:A thing you have to consider when you talk about "stars" being out is that the team was not playing with 4 players on the court. Before the "star" being there makes a difference they have to first duplicate what their replacement did. Anything beyond that is the difference. And of course how they would have changed the game is impossible to quantify or even objectively predict. Put any different player on the court for any length of time and it changes the game, possibly the winner of the game.franke said:
For whatever reason people like to confuse parity with everyone being good. The rest of the Big 12 minus the top 3 or 4 are not very good. The top just has less separation from the rest, causing some of the parity. With Texas and Cats stars out, it makes it even closer.
A couple of examples. Let's suppose KSU had had Lee. Would they have switched to zone? One of Lee's replacements was outstanding and I don't think she had played much prior. Had Texas had Harmon, would Booker have had what some called a breakout game and what kind of game would Harmon have, they are not all good ones?
Injuries are a fact and non-injury absences (sitting on the bench with fouls) also affect things. On Monday night, yes Lee was out, but Buggs and Edwards only played half the game because of early foul trouble, 24 minutes and 23 minutes respectively. How did their absence affect the game? Someone above mentioned playing Utah without their "star". Pili played half the game because of foul trouble. She was out a lot in the first half, but pretty much played the entire second half. We still beat them in the second half.
Blackie, there were 2 star players missing for Texas when they played us, Harmon and their leading scorer (Jones) at the time we played. Booker was already averaging 25 minutes a game when before they played us.
Thank you for the clarification but the ones who filled in for Jones accounted for 21 points. I don't think she averages that, does she? Last year we beat them down there when both played and we were a much weaker team than this year. The point is that discounting a win because the "star" player is out cannot be said with certainty that had they played the outcome would be different. Everybody plays with who they have or don't have whether it be injury or fouls. Concerning Booker, it was not so much the minutes she played that people in Austin were talking about, but the impact she had on the game and continues to do so.Bear2393 said:
Blackie, there were 2 star players missing for Texas when they played us, Harmon and their leading scorer (Jones) at the time we played. Booker was already averaging 25 minutes a game when before they played us.
Walker played an out of her head type of game down there. When we play next week she may stink up the place. We may lose by 20, but the game in Austin was a win. Every close game can be rearranged for a different outcome by discounting it with this or that. What is the point of throwing cold water over a great win or a program that is trying to come back from a torpedo to the broadside.? I just don't get why this board continues to do that? (This is not directed at you personally, but it just seems to be the demeanor of a number of posters.)
I don't see haters either.
to answer a few other posts:
I see Walker at point as she can direct the team as playmaker. She can also break the zone and make the 15 footer. We have too many people taking 3's. Passing is not a strength of Sarah Andrews. She is our best 3 pt shooter. Have her take 1/2 the 3 pointers. When the offense stalls, they start jacking 3's. I see other teams driving to the basket for lay-ups. How about a little John Stockton; great passer even inside.
My last point is wondering how good a recruiter that Collin is. She seems to be a wonderful person.
Lastly, teams take time to gel. Bringing in players from the portal is going to take more time to make the team play together.
Sorry to see Buggs not playing consistently; there is tremendous upside.
to answer a few other posts:
I see Walker at point as she can direct the team as playmaker. She can also break the zone and make the 15 footer. We have too many people taking 3's. Passing is not a strength of Sarah Andrews. She is our best 3 pt shooter. Have her take 1/2 the 3 pointers. When the offense stalls, they start jacking 3's. I see other teams driving to the basket for lay-ups. How about a little John Stockton; great passer even inside.
My last point is wondering how good a recruiter that Collin is. She seems to be a wonderful person.
Lastly, teams take time to gel. Bringing in players from the portal is going to take more time to make the team play together.
Sorry to see Buggs not playing consistently; there is tremendous upside.
Gametime said:BU82EX said:
As the season progresses you typically get better, we are getting worse. I'm not sure what blame our coach has in all this, but she shouldn't escape guilt. I'm sorry, but Sarah Andrews is out of shape. I know she was injured early, but my goodness. Basketball IQ for this team - zilch! Tonight Buggs did not score and Jada Walker had 2 points and Sarah had 6 points on 2 of 8 shooting (0-4 from 3). We had 20 turnovers, shot 21% from 3pt and 53% from FT line and we had a whopping 10 assist. Our offense against the zone? 16 points in the second half.
I was excited for CNC getting hired. But, last year extremely concerned watching her game day coaching. Now this year, holy crap I am extremely concerned. Texas missing their star and struggled to win, can't beat KSU without their star, did the job beating Utah without their star-what happens when we play them again?
Not sure CNC can fix this, this is her style and she just rides or dies with it.
Pilli played against us and scored 22 points on Nov 14th.
She only played about 90 seconds in the first quarter, got two quick fouls, scored all her points in the second half.
How long of a free pass does she get? The team has looked terrible over the last four games. Does she not deserve some of the blame?
And we still outscored them in the 2nd half.DFW Bill said:
She only played about 90 seconds in the first quarter, got two quick fouls, scored all her points in the second half.
What is your alternative? In listening to CNC she already takes on her shoulders the team not being able to play well against a zone. She doesn't need any of us telling her what is wrong. I think she knows more about the game than any of us do. She knows what is wrong. She also knows the strengths and weaknesses of her players. Now, if they are doing nothing to try to attack the zone in a better, effective way, blame away, but you really don't believe that do you? They have got a lot more sweat and tears pored into this than any fan here will ever have.True Grit said:
How long of a free pass does she get? The team has looked terrible over the last four games. Does she not deserve some of the blame?
If you have a way to fix what has happened the last four games against a zone defense, suggest it to the staff. I'm sure they haven't thought about it. They are accepting plenty of blame......on and by themselves. It serves no purpose for fans to pile on when they are not the ones putting in and having to put in the work to make it better.
I just lie in the camp that believes that complaining on a bulletin board about something that everyone, especially the team knows is counterproductive.
blackie said:What is your alternative? In listening to CNC she already takes on her shoulders the team not being able to play well against a zone. She doesn't need any of us telling her what is wrong. I think she knows more about the game than any of us do. She knows what is wrong. She also knows the strengths and weaknesses of her players. Now, if they are doing nothing to try to attack the zone in a better, effective way, blame away, but you really don't believe that do you? They have got a lot more sweat and tears pored into this than any fan here will ever have.True Grit said:
How long of a free pass does she get? The team has looked terrible over the last four games. Does she not deserve some of the blame?
If you have a way to fix what has happened the last four games against a zone defense, suggest it to the staff. I'm sure they haven't thought about it. They are accepting plenty of blame......on and by themselves. It serves no purpose for fans to pile on when they are not the ones putting in and having to put in the work to make it better.
I just lie in the camp that believes that complaining on a bulletin board about something that everyone, especially the team knows is counterproductive.
How dare fans discuss a cataclysmic shift in team dynamics over the past 4 games on a message board. Shame!
Question…..are teams going to start playing zone against us the whole game?
If they're even slightly intelligent, I sure would.ScottS said:
Question…..are teams going to start playing zone against us the whole game?
There is a difference between knowing the game inside out, and being able to coach what you know.
I've been looking at some stats..
Iowa State played 42 possessions of zone against us. They actually play zone regularly--21.9 possessions per game. Kansas St had only 8 possession of zone all season before Monday, when they had 36. Oklahoma St averages 6.1 possessions of zone per game. Texas has played 8 possessions of zone this year--only 2 in competitive games--seems like a situational thing
Iowa State played 42 possessions of zone against us. They actually play zone regularly--21.9 possessions per game. Kansas St had only 8 possession of zone all season before Monday, when they had 36. Oklahoma St averages 6.1 possessions of zone per game. Texas has played 8 possessions of zone this year--only 2 in competitive games--seems like a situational thing
This is exactly what I have observed. CNC seems brilliantly analytical and articulate, especially after the fact. But preparing the players (re: implicitly knowing how to attack a zone) and being the general to make it happen on the court takes other capacities and abilities. I suspect the players are bewildered at times--knowing and experiencing her depth of knowledge and relatability, and then seeing it fall apart during a game. I hope this all can get turned around. CNC has seemed lost on the sidelines at points in several games. Basketball coaches are too visible for their own good.Malbec said:
There is a difference between knowing the game inside out, and being able to coach what you know.
Yes. I agree that some fans ,not all, are expecting the same results we got years ago ie winning conference every year, getting to at least Sweet 16 every year, etc. As I have said before the landscape of Wbb has drastically changed. We are not going to get those results regardless of who our coach is. Also to put things in perspective, 11 of the teams currently in top 25 have 3 or more losses. There is parity like we have never seen. SC is only undefeated team.
That being said, I agree our team has been in a slump and hopefully we can end that very soon.
That being said, I agree our team has been in a slump and hopefully we can end that very soon.
Talking it and coaching it to a level where the players can execute your plan are two totally different things. You would like to see your team improve as the season progresses and play your best ball heading into March. The Lady's play has seemed to have regressed from earlier in the season. CNC needs to turn this around or we will be having another early exit in the tournament.
It has regressed because we are seeing zones thrown up against us that were not present earlier in the year, at least zones that were any good. The other factor that needs to be remembered beyond some of the comments from posts above is that you can figure out zone attacks, teach your players how to attack the zone, but if they can't follow the instruction or don't have the physical attributes to execute the plan it still won't work. I don't think we know where the problem truly lies. I know coach has talked about drilling into them about not dribbling into traffic, making too many short pass attempts inside, and turning down shots. Not doing that is on the players. They have to execute the instruction. Assuming the problem is at the coaching level is the first assumption, but not necessarily the right assumption.baylor1984 said:
Talking it and coaching it to a level where the players can execute your plan are two totally different things. You would like to see your team improve as the season progresses and play your best ball heading into March. The Lady's play has seemed to have regressed from earlier in the season. CNC needs to turn this around or we will be having another early exit in the tournament.
I think we are still too short against many of these teams, especially with no real height in the middle. After watching OU last night I think when we play them in Norman we are going to have a real problem going up against them for that very reason. All of the above said, it we start hitting open shots again, the zones against us will likely have to go back to man. Coaches with a lick of sense will stay in zone against us until that shooting success returns.
It all still comes down to the fact we just haven't been making open shots that we had made all year up until a couple of weeks ago. That has been the difference. The problems with zones, which must be addressed and from a coaching perspective is trying to be addressed has been exposed because we haven't forced the opponent to play man of late.
The coach recruits/picks the players and if we are too short that's on the coach. Same goes if you don't have enough 3-pt. shooting which has bitten us in the past. Execution is a function of practice. And adjustments in second half of games have seemed to really hurt us and for the most part we've had no answer for them. We score 39 in the first half against KSU and 16 in the second. We need to be able to adjust/attack on the fly to whatever the defense throws at us. We haven't seemed to do that to well lately. Hopefully these last few games will be a wakeup call and we will revert back to how we were playing earlier in the year.
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