JVG

13,946 Views | 156 Replies | Last: 20 hrs ago by Delmar 2.0
Leonidas
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Adriacus Peratuun said:

blackie said:

Last night her shooting just fit in with everybody else. My only real complaint with Jana is that she seems to have problems counting to 5. I think we had two 5-second violations on inbounds with her last night and that isn't the first time that has happened this year.

But given your opinions, who would you start in place of her?

You miss the main points I made.
My point has consistently been about roster construction and player analysis.

Would I start her? No.
Would I use her as the PG sub? Yes.
Work hard to let her get her minutes against backups and not starters (at the very least do it against ball pressure teams).
Necessarily that means using Scott as the starting PG. Moving Deng to the starting lineup.

Are those moves ideal? No.
Are they the best option among poor options? Yes.

ultimately the flawed roster construction limits choices.
hopefully putting more shooting around Buggs and Fontleroy opens their shooting windows (even by a slight amount) which increases efficiency.

the "starter" label itself is unimportant. The main focus is how many minutes players play and whether they log those minutes against starters or backups. Having Scott log PG backup minutes against opposing backups seems strange. Let her attack the opposing starting PG and draw some fouls. The more minutes we force the other team to play their backup PG, the better for us. Is it hard on Scott? Yes. But is she already initiating a ton of halfcourt O? Also yes.

Roster construction is a different issue, but based on the current options, I would definitely start Jana at PG. The only thing I would do different myself is to try and sub Brow in a couple of minutes each half to give her some rest (now that Brow is available).

Scott functions better at the 2 in my opinion, and she seems to be more turnover prone that Jana. For example, Scott had 2 assists and 6 turnovers last night. Although I do think we are at our best facing pressure when they are both on the court.

Last night, Jana fouled out with about 2 minutes left and we were up 54-46. We only scored 2 points the rest of the game -- 2 free throws by Bella with 2 seconds left. In fact, the only shot attempt we had in those last two minutes other than those 2 free throws was a 3 point shot attempt by Bella. Scott fouled out a minute after Jana did committing an offensive foul trying to get the ball past half court. Brow came in for the first time once Scott fouled out.
Adriacus Peratuun
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Leonidas said:

Adriacus Peratuun said:

Delmar 2.0 said:

7/3 a:t ratio, still better than 2:1 on her worst night and also adding 4 reb and 2 steals. Pretty good numbers for an overall terrible night for everybody wearing a yellow Sic'em jersey.

Care to guess how many of those assists were created by her vs. created by the O action?
An assist by passing to a shooter who got open via double screen action isn't the same as a dribble drive draw and deliver assist.
Deng making shots after a double screen was one of the few highlights last night.
Can anyone name even one drive and distribute assist?

I have not re-watched the entire game to fully answer your question, but I did just see a clip on facebook of the end of the third quarter where Jana brought the ball down the court, drawing the attention of 3 different players, and as she approached the lane she kicked it out to Deng for a 3 pt shot at the buzzer. Deng was open because the player otherwise in position to guard her had moved over to defend Jana driving into the lane.

So the last play of the 3rd Quarter in transition. See my point.
BTW her next assist came at the beginning of the 4th off a simple fifteen foot top to wing pass after Deng ran off a double screen for a Catch & Shoot.
Makes my point……each was one assist. One involved creation, one didn't.
Baylor scores relatively well in transition but struggles in Half Court O due to very limited creation.

Baylor can't score at an efficient level (except in transition) unless Scott is rolling or the team is running five player motion actions. We have basically abandoned our core offense two player actions.
Adriacus Peratuun
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Leonidas said:

Adriacus Peratuun said:

blackie said:

Last night her shooting just fit in with everybody else. My only real complaint with Jana is that she seems to have problems counting to 5. I think we had two 5-second violations on inbounds with her last night and that isn't the first time that has happened this year.

But given your opinions, who would you start in place of her?

You miss the main points I made.
My point has consistently been about roster construction and player analysis.

Would I start her? No.
Would I use her as the PG sub? Yes.
Work hard to let her get her minutes against backups and not starters (at the very least do it against ball pressure teams).
Necessarily that means using Scott as the starting PG. Moving Deng to the starting lineup.

Are those moves ideal? No.
Are they the best option among poor options? Yes.

ultimately the flawed roster construction limits choices.
hopefully putting more shooting around Buggs and Fontleroy opens their shooting windows (even by a slight amount) which increases efficiency.

the "starter" label itself is unimportant. The main focus is how many minutes players play and whether they log those minutes against starters or backups. Having Scott log PG backup minutes against opposing backups seems strange. Let her attack the opposing starting PG and draw some fouls. The more minutes we force the other team to play their backup PG, the better for us. Is it hard on Scott? Yes. But is she already initiating a ton of halfcourt O? Also yes.

Roster construction is a different issue, but based on the current options, I would definitely start Jana at PG. The only thing I would do different myself is to try and sub Brow in a couple of minutes each half to give her some rest (now that Brow is available).

Scott functions better at the 2 in my opinion, and she seems to be more turnover prone that Jana. For example, Scott had 2 assists and 6 turnovers last night. Although I do think we are at our best facing pressure when they are both on the court.

Last night, Jana fouled out with about 2 minutes left and we were up 54-46. We only scored 2 points the rest of the game -- 2 free throws by Bella with 2 seconds left. In fact, the only shot attempt we had in those last two minutes other than those 2 free throws was a 3 point shot attempt by Bella. Scott fouled out a minute after Jana did committing an offensive foul trying to get the ball past half court. Brow came in for the first time once Scott fouled out.

Last Night's disaster wasn't on any one player. It took a group effort to finish that poorly.



Leonidas
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I agree and did not mean to imply otherwise. In any event, I have said my peace, and will now step back and allow you to have the final word.
Adriacus Peratuun
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Leonidas said:

I agree and did not mean to imply otherwise. In any event, I have said my peace, and will now step back and allow you to have the final word.

How about two words…..Happy Weekend
Bear_Fan254
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Adriacus Peratuun said:

Bear_Fan254 said:

Adriacus Peratuun said:

geewago said:

WHERE AP ?



care to explain this result from your vast pool of basketball knowledge.

shooting 50% against teams that don't pressure the ball (your big chest thumping moment) is far less telling than shooting 10% against a ball pressure D.


Yet no where to be seen when she had very solid games against Ok State and undefeated #10 ISU. Bad shooting night but a very solid 7 assists and solid D all night.

Your weird obsession with JVG remains creepy as ever, man. Clowns gonna clown.

The only thing creepy is you repeatedly flipping out about player analysis on a sports message board.

running up average stats against teams that do not apply ball pressure might be your threshold. It isn't for most informed viewers.


No one is flipping out. Just creepy your obsession on JVG. But weird guys do weird guy things.

Do you believe you're an informed viewer? Does Colt Barber need to come on here to dunk you on again for how little you know? No wonder you feel more at home on the free boards.
ScottyB_The_Baylor_King
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Bear_Fan254 said:

Adriacus Peratuun said:

Bear_Fan254 said:

Adriacus Peratuun said:

geewago said:

WHERE AP ?



care to explain this result from your vast pool of basketball knowledge.

shooting 50% against teams that don't pressure the ball (your big chest thumping moment) is far less telling than shooting 10% against a ball pressure D.


Yet no where to be seen when she had very solid games against Ok State and undefeated #10 ISU. Bad shooting night but a very solid 7 assists and solid D all night.

Your weird obsession with JVG remains creepy as ever, man. Clowns gonna clown.

The only thing creepy is you repeatedly flipping out about player analysis on a sports message board.

running up average stats against teams that do not apply ball pressure might be your threshold. It isn't for most informed viewers.


No one is flipping out. Just creepy your obsession on JVG. But weird guys do weird guy things.

Do you believe you're an informed viewer? Does Colt Barber need to come on here to dunk you on again for how little you know? No wonder you feel more at home on the free boards.


Let's give him the silent treatment. No need to respond to a creep who is as large as a gorilla.
blackie
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Adriacus Peratuun said:

Leonidas said:

I agree and did not mean to imply otherwise. In any event, I have said my peace, and will now step back and allow you to have the final word.

How about two words…..Happy Weekend

Depends on what happens on Sunday afternoon.
Polarbear
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This discussion of Jana has been hard to read at times. A.P. has pointed out the weaknesses in her game, and many fans have countered by pointing out her strengths. This debate has carried on for weeks, with A.P. using stats from her weaker games to support his argument, and other fans using stats from her stronger games to support their argument. Rinse, repeat. This argument, on these terms, will never resolve.

This infinite loop misses the reason why I find this conversation painful. It misses the humanity of the players, and the emotional connection of being a fan. I love Jana. I understand she's not a perfect player, and I'm ok with that.

I love Jana because she's a jolt of positive energy, both on and off the floor. On the floor she doesn't run, so much as she scampers. She's an unselfish teammate. She's a creative passer, and a party with the ball in her hands on a fast break. She inspires with her tireless effort and hustle. On the bench she's a huge cheerleader. She's always talking and encouraging her teammates, with a huge beautiful smile on her face.

I love Jana because she's committed to Baylor and this program. She graduated in 2024 and could have moved on with her life, but chose to come back last year for her Covid year. After tearing her ACL in the first game, she again could have turned in her jersey and moved on with her life. Instead, she went through a year of rehab and came back this year for one more ride. She committed to Baylor; I committed to her.

I love Jana because she's an excellent representative of the school. We largely have quality people come through the program, but some just stand out above others; Jana and Bella are at that level for me. I was in Ames last weekend for the ISU game, and heard several fans say that Jana was their favorite player. Our daughter attended Baylor, and was in the same 2024 graduating class; Jana is her favorite player. Jana possesses a charisma that just draws people to her and makes them cheer for her. I've met Jana; she's delightful. I've met her parents, Tony and Carol; they're wonderful and supportive, and everything you could hope from a player's family. I love that when Jana takes the floor out of the locker room for warmups, she usually find Carol in the stands for a smile and/or a wave. We should all pray for a steady stream of players and families like the Van Gytenbeeks.

I love Jana because she's taken on a role this year that nobody expected, probably not even her. After rehabbing her ACL injury, the script should have been that she'd work her way back into shape as part of a rotation at Point Guard, competing with Ella and Ines and Taliah for minutes. As A.P. has suggested, the best fit for Jana would probably be coming off the bench and playing 15 to 20 minutes per game against the opponent's backups. Alas, with injuries and circumstances she finds herself starting, playing against the opponent's starters, dealing with the leg brace and the rehab, while playing 30 to 40 minutes per game. It's a huge ask, and much different role than expected. Jana has embraced the challenge with nothing but great attitude and great effort. Respect.

A.P. makes several true points about Jana's game, and supports them with reference to her statistics. It's irrefutable, I get it. It's also an objective critical analysis, and doesn't factor in Jana as a person, as a Green and Gold wearing representative of Baylor. Jana may have flaws in her game, but by God she's OUR Jana, and we stand behind her.

There is an argument that these athletes are adults in the world of NIL, and that means they are subject to the same criticism as professional athletes. Perhaps. But I don't see a team of professional athletes, I see a team of college kids who are trying to develop themselves into adults. Maybe it's naive, or old school, or naive wishful thinking, but it's my view. I'm reminded of the famous Mike Gundy "I'm a Man!" press conference from 20 years ago, when he thought the local press was too critical of the Oklahoma State QB and was asking them to back down. It was a beautiful moment, and it's how I feel about overly harsh criticism of our players. Jana and her teammates are in the arena, and that alone should cause all of us to treat them with a level of respect and appreciation.

A.P.'s arguments often are made in the context of how Baylor's program needs to evolve to reach an elite competitive level as a consistent Final Four contender. I share this goal. I also realize that's not where the program is today. We're a Sweet 16 contender, not realistically a Final Four contender. But that does not mean I will walk away from the program until they produce a better product. I'm a fan. I choose to still cheer my ass off for these players, while simultaneously hoping for improvement from them and the program. I have an emotional connection to this team, and especially to Jana, Bella, and Buggs. I'm not walking away now.

Is anyone else old enough to remember a goofy comic book in the early 1970's called Superfan? The premise was that a nerdy football fan in the stands was somehow magically infused with the best qualities of the best QB's in the NFL, and became the best in the league. I'd love for our PG to have the size of Kiki Rice, the athleticism of Milaysia Fulwiley, the floor vision of Olivia Miles, the dribble penetration of Hannah Hidalgo, the defensive tenacity of Rori Harmon, and the shooting ability of Azzi Fudd. Alas, that fantasy Superfan version of player does not exist. Jana may not be an All American, but she's what we've got. And I love her. She's OUR Jana.

I feel that many have seen A.P.'s observations about Jana's game as criticism of her directly. I think his observations are more a criticism of Coach NC and the program's performance in recruiting and talent acquisition. It just felt very personal to many of us, because it felt directed at Jana.

I won't dare ask A.P. to change anything about his posts or his style. I've always felt the two best posters on this site are SetShot and A.P., because I'm constantly learning more about the game when they write. Look at the insights A.P. provided after last weekend's Iowa State game; tremendous stuff. If I do have criticism, it's that sometimes his posts are a little too harsh and clinical for my style, and don't take into account that these are 18 and 22 year old people who are making huge life sacrifices to play this sport. They represent our university, and I have great appreciation. But it's a fool's errand to ask or expect anyone to change their style. On the contrary, I want to let A.P. cook, because we often get tremendous insights. On the occasions that he gets controversial and cold, it leads to spirited debate. Fun stuff.

But on this hill I will die. Jana may be flawed, but I love her, and I'm proud she's a Baylor Bear. I am ride or die with her to the end.

Sic Em!
mickeyjoe
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Outstanding
BUFan10
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Outstanding, the positivity. I think most true Baylor fans will agree with you.
FFA0329
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BEAUTIFULLY SAID, polarbear. Thank you. This may be the best post I have ever read on this site. I am serious. What a wonderful tribute to Jana and an eloquent exposition of what it means to be a human being, both from the player side and the fan side. I mean it, thank you SO MUCH.
Adriacus Peratuun
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Polarbear said:

This discussion of Jana has been hard to read at times. A.P. has pointed out the weaknesses in her game, and many fans have countered by pointing out her strengths. This debate has carried on for weeks, with A.P. using stats from her weaker games to support his argument, and other fans using stats from her stronger games to support their argument. Rinse, repeat. This argument, on these terms, will never resolve.

This infinite loop misses the reason why I find this conversation painful. It misses the humanity of the players, and the emotional connection of being a fan. I love Jana. I understand she's not a perfect player, and I'm ok with that.

I love Jana because she's a jolt of positive energy, both on and off the floor. On the floor she doesn't run, so much as she scampers. She's an unselfish teammate. She's a creative passer, and a party with the ball in her hands on a fast break. She inspires with her tireless effort and hustle. On the bench she's a huge cheerleader. She's always talking and encouraging her teammates, with a huge beautiful smile on her face.

I love Jana because she's committed to Baylor and this program. She graduated in 2024 and could have moved on with her life, but chose to come back last year for her Covid year. After tearing her ACL in the first game, she again could have turned in her jersey and moved on with her life. Instead, she went through a year of rehab and came back this year for one more ride. She committed to Baylor; I committed to her.

I love Jana because she's an excellent representative of the school. We largely have quality people come through the program, but some just stand out above others; Jana and Bella are at that level for me. I was in Ames last weekend for the ISU game, and heard several fans say that Jana was their favorite player. Our daughter attended Baylor, and was in the same 2024 graduating class; Jana is her favorite player. Jana possesses a charisma that just draws people to her and makes them cheer for her. I've met Jana; she's delightful. I've met her parents, Tony and Carol; they're wonderful and supportive, and everything you could hope from a player's family. I love that when Jana takes the floor out of the locker room for warmups, she usually find Carol in the stands for a smile and/or a wave. We should all pray for a steady stream of players and families like the Van Gytenbeeks.

I love Jana because she's taken on a role this year that nobody expected, probably not even her. After rehabbing her ACL injury, the script should have been that she'd work her way back into shape as part of a rotation at Point Guard, competing with Ella and Ines and Taliah for minutes. As A.P. has suggested, the best fit for Jana would probably be coming off the bench and playing 15 to 20 minutes per game against the opponent's backups. Alas, with injuries and circumstances she finds herself starting, playing against the opponent's starters, dealing with the leg brace and the rehab, while playing 30 to 40 minutes per game. It's a huge ask, and much different role than expected. Jana has embraced the challenge with nothing but great attitude and great effort. Respect.

A.P. makes several true points about Jana's game, and supports them with reference to her statistics. It's irrefutable, I get it. It's also an objective critical analysis, and doesn't factor in Jana as a person, as a Green and Gold wearing representative of Baylor. Jana may have flaws in her game, but by God she's OUR Jana, and we stand behind her.

There is an argument that these athletes are adults in the world of NIL, and that means they are subject to the same criticism as professional athletes. Perhaps. But I don't see a team of professional athletes, I see a team of college kids who are trying to develop themselves into adults. Maybe it's naive, or old school, or naive wishful thinking, but it's my view. I'm reminded of the famous Mike Gundy "I'm a Man!" press conference from 20 years ago, when he thought the local press was too critical of the Oklahoma State QB and was asking them to back down. It was a beautiful moment, and it's how I feel about overly harsh criticism of our players. Jana and her teammates are in the arena, and that alone should cause all of us to treat them with a level of respect and appreciation.

A.P.'s arguments often are made in the context of how Baylor's program needs to evolve to reach an elite competitive level as a consistent Final Four contender. I share this goal. I also realize that's not where the program is today. We're a Sweet 16 contender, not realistically a Final Four contender. But that does not mean I will walk away from the program until they produce a better product. I'm a fan. I choose to still cheer my ass off for these players, while simultaneously hoping for improvement from them and the program. I have an emotional connection to this team, and especially to Jana, Bella, and Buggs. I'm not walking away now.

Is anyone else old enough to remember a goofy comic book in the early 1970's called Superfan? The premise was that a nerdy football fan in the stands was somehow magically infused with the best qualities of the best QB's in the NFL, and became the best in the league. I'd love for our PG to have the size of Kiki Rice, the athleticism of Milaysia Fulwiley, the floor vision of Olivia Miles, the dribble penetration of Hannah Hidalgo, the defensive tenacity of Rori Harmon, and the shooting ability of Azzi Fudd. Alas, that fantasy Superfan version of player does not exist. Jana may not be an All American, but she's what we've got. And I love her. She's OUR Jana.

I feel that many have seen A.P.'s observations about Jana's game as criticism of her directly. I think his observations are more a criticism of Coach NC and the program's performance in recruiting and talent acquisition. It just felt very personal to many of us, because it felt directed at Jana.

I won't dare ask A.P. to change anything about his posts or his style. I've always felt the two best posters on this site are SetShot and A.P., because I'm constantly learning more about the game when they write. Look at the insights A.P. provided after last weekend's Iowa State game; tremendous stuff. If I do have criticism, it's that sometimes his posts are a little too harsh and clinical for my style, and don't take into account that these are 18 and 22 year old people who are making huge life sacrifices to play this sport. They represent our university, and I have great appreciation. But it's a fool's errand to ask or expect anyone to change their style. On the contrary, I want to let A.P. cook, because we often get tremendous insights. On the occasions that he gets controversial and cold, it leads to spirited debate. Fun stuff.

But on this hill I will die. Jana may be flawed, but I love her, and I'm proud she's a Baylor Bear. I am ride or die with her to the end.

Sic Em!

Polar:

fair assessment. acknowledge both the kind words and points of difference.
my cut and dry tone is clearly not for everyone.

to clear up some misconceptions:

1) I don't hate any player or coach. I do think they are all subject to critique.
2) I understand your point that the players are 18-22 years old. I agree that most college kids deserve a high degree of leeway in analysis. I simply don't think today's scholarships players fit in that category. If they were typical Baylor students working on campus for minimum wage or similar, hands off. But every scholarship player is (in effect) a six figure earner when taking into account NIL, tuition, fees, books, room and board, insurance, travel per diem, etc. Based upon that degree of recompense, I think tough analysis is appropriate. No one likes doing harsh performance reviews for office favorites, but they are necessary.
3) I agree that cultural fit is important. I am one of the few on this board that agrees with the strong stance against Mulkey due to her impact on the entire enterprise. But my experience is that cultural fit cannot trump core competency.
4) the bulk of my critique is indeed directed at the coaching staff. Most experienced leaders emphasize that a key management tenet is to never set your people up for failure. CNC has missed the mark in that area badly.
5) the entire original O and D schemes were built around a PG that could apply dribble drive pressure on O and create ball pressure against the opposing PG on D. Literally the engine on both sides of the ball. The first domino upon which every other domino falls.
6) without regard to season performance, not having a clear pathway at that position is head scratching. Putting all the eggs in a single basket based upon a sixth year player who has never started and is coming off injury is baffling. Top that off with the fact that the player has never shown a penchant for doing the key items that your systems require.
7) you are correct that my main critiques are roster construction, talent analysis, and player development. Players like Buggs and Fontleroy (who are more slasher than shooter) need the "shoulder past" opportunities created by dribble drive. They need bigger driving windows. They aren't catch and shoot types. Equally, their length and quickness on D is often wasted without ball pressure against a passing PG. The substantial diminution in transition O directly ties to the absence of ball pressure by our PG.
8) seeing players who are positioned for failure instead of positioned for success (and we have several such players this year) is maddening. Not fair to them, not fair to the team, not fair to the fans.
9) the staff waited half a season to start adjusting the half court O to something we have the physical ability to run. Inexplicable.
10) again, I don't hate any player or coach. But at the current levels of recompense, every scholarship player and coach (in my opinion) should expect vigorous critique. If the NCAA is reformed to return to a true student athlete setup, I will certainly adjust that opinion accordingly.

Cheers.

blackie
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Yes, a lot today is determined by roster build. But in today's world, coaching talent, experience, recruiting acumen, program history and all the other factors that caused a recruit to come to Baylor or anywhere else 5 or 6 years ago is no longer the same, because now money comes into play and can often times trump all the factors just mentioned.

I don't know who we have tried to recruit, who told us no because of money, and whether or not we just had to get the best we could get and that is why the roster is as it is. Others might be correct that CNC doesn't know how to build a roster to fit her desired style of play, but with her experience, I find that to be a very large stretch to consider it to be the case.

To me, our options at guard beyond Scott and JVG are limited. This could primarily be because of injuries until I see Ella and Ines fully back from their injuries. But they may be no better. I don't think Deng is anything close to a point guard. Her ball handling just doesn't seem to be at the point where she could hold up to intense pressure.

So, the question becomes are our options at guard limited because of injuries, bad evaluation of talent, not having the money to get better options or what. I will be the first to say that I have no insights into the recruiting and expect everyone else here does not either. Here I am talking about the direct conversations between coach and recruit, not some third party comments. I don't think any of us are confidents to the coaching staff. Perhaps that is not the case, but I am hard pressed to believe otherwise.

Our complaints may be to a situation that the coaching staff is well aware of, but because of outside factors have themselves had to settle for something less than they desired and then have to make the best of a situation that they do not even like.
roadrunner
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All I can say is "amen"! You expressed in beautiful words my exact sentiments regarding Jana. While I haven't had a chance to meet her parents, I will certainly look for them in KC and thank them for entrusting their daughter to BU.

I love Jana for all the reasons you mentioned. I believe she is the best option we currently have for starting point guard, and I continue to cheer for her every step of the way.

Go Jana, and Sic 'Em Bears!

PS - I also share your view of the value of AP's posts. While the tone can be off putting for me, I have gained basketball knowledge from many of the posts. For that I am grateful.
SMU grad, Baylor women’s basketball enthusiast
R3G
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I think Adriacus should be relegated to the free board. AP stands for Always Pathetic.
Good thing you are not paid to evaluate Basketball because you clearly do not have an understanding of the game or personnel.
If we were to lose Jana or not play her we would probably not win another game.
Taliah is a good player but she is a 2 and not a 1. She is our version of Matthew Mayer- never met a shot he didn't like. Her assist to turnover ratio is not good nor does it need to be at the 2 position. Marcayla Johnson is not ready for the speed of this game. Ella Brown is coming off ACL.
Jane does. Lot of things well. Coach Nicki just praised her for her defense. She had 4 steals and hit some very timely shots. She understands Nicki's system and makes it work.
Nicki
Has to play her close to 40 minutes a game- look at how we play when she is not on the court. We are not good.
I am glad you are not coaching our team as we would have not won a game all year.
I wish (Always Pathetic) that you would go back to the free board. You fit right in there.
Delmar 2.0
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nice rant but.....this is the free board
 
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