Wokeism vs. "Semi-Fascism"

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TexasScientist
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Wokeism vs. "Semi-Fascism"
Both sides suck, which is worse?
~ Matt Labash

As I've stated before, and very recently, I am not a both-sidesist. I'm a neither-sidesist. As my late, great pal, P.J. O'Rourke, used to say, "Don't vote, it just encourages the *******s." I'm pretty sure P.J., a committed right-winger, albeit an independent-thinking one, voted. Sometimes even for people he loathed (Hillary Clinton), to cock-block people he loathed even more (Donald Trump). As he said of his extremely-pained Hillary endorsement:
I am endorsing Hillary, and all her lies and all her empty promises. It's the second-worst thing that can happen to this country, but she's way behind in second place. She's wrong about absolutely everything, but she's wrong within normal parameters.

Unlike P.J., I couldn't bring myself to hold my nose and vote for Hillary. But neither did I vote for Trump, who even when I agreed with him (yes, open borders are bad, yes, America should not be China's trainbearer), I regarded as a sociopathic lunatic. Proving, once again, that first impressions are usually accurate ones.

Forget the four years he spent kicking the hornet's nest every single day, trying to divide the country worse than it already was before he came along. Forget the coup attempt he inspired and actively spurred, becoming the first president in history to sic a mob on Congress for performing their constitutional duty of ratifying the people's will. We don't even need to go back that far, to the long-ago days of 2021. Why, in just the last week or so, Trump has engaged in his favorite hobby: sitting at his crack-pottery wheel to repurpose barmy QAnon talking points on his ironically named Twitter knockoff, "Truth" Social. And of course, he's just been found (in spite of the protests of purportedly law'n'order loving Republicans, many of whom now want to defund the FBI) to have broken the law by squirreling away boxes-full of documents at his golf club, plenty of them top secret, with precisely zero coherent explanations as to what he was up to. And then, to put the cherry on top Trump, being a Maximum Leader, usually puts at least two cherries on top he demanded that he be reinstated as president, effective immediately, even though he lost the popular vote and the electoral college by a wider margin and nearly as-wide-a-margin, respectively, than Trump beat Hillary by in 2016. (Which Trump referred to as "a landslide.") This, after scores of courts, including ones presided over by Trump-appointed judges, and loads of Republican election officials reaffirmed the outcome, even as Trump tried to muscle one of them (on tape!) to overturn his state's election results.
If my fellow "conservatives," a term I can now only use in scare quotes in good conscience, refuse to acknowledge the realities biting them in the ass every day, that's on them. Not on me. If failing the ideological litmus of refusing to believe and echo an obvious lie (which has become the purity test by which most Republican elected officials are judged nowadays, since Trump is still the party's standard-bearer and prohibitive favorite to win the party's nomination again) makes me a non-conservative, then who gives a toss? I don't. So be it. I didn't get into this line of work to tell people what they wanted to hear. I got into it to tell them the truth. Also, to get free office supplies. (Back when I had an office.)

So I have to laugh when my winger friends accuse me of trying to curry favor with the left, when every financial incentive for a right-winger for the past half-decade has been to sell out hard to a certain tangelo-flavored real estate developer. I'm doing just fine, subscriber-wise. But I could easily have five times as many if I did that. To that end, I highly recommend former Republican operative Tim Miller's excellent book, Why We Did It: A Travelogue From The Republican Road To Hell. Tim, who I only know through very infrequent emails, names names and takes scalps, some of whose are people he used to work with, who know better, but who went along to get along anyway, often financing their new beach houses along the way. I won't name any of those names now. (Okay, one: Ari Fleischer, who is such an unrepentant phony, he warrants a special shout-out. In fairness, I don't know if Ari has a beach house. Though it would be convenient for him if he did: a place where he could more comfortably bury his head in the sand.)
As for the left's excesses? The left's hare-brained excesses are why - despite how much I loathe what Trumpism has done to not only the country generally, but people I know and love, personally - I'm not a lefty, either. Trumpsters and the new breed of often former-lefty anti-anti-Trumpsters who make a living milking them until they moo, like to pretend that history began around half past yesterday, when the War on Wokeness kicked into high gear. But I was on it back when it was still called "political correctness," and when Trump was still a registered Democrat and only on his second wife.
You hate moronic diversity initiatives in the military, when their only real job is to kill people and break things? So do I! Here I am, back in 1997, actually traveling to Cocoa Beach, to the military's official diversity institute, cataloging all the inanities I saw there. (There were many.) I did the same with the government contractor grievance-group Olympiad at an Orlando conference in 2009. Here I am on transgendered-politics language/logic distortions back in 2015. You hate the ideological thugs in Antifa? #MeToo! Here I was beating the rhetorical hell out of them in 2017, even as they beat the physical hell out of my profile subjects in the purported cradle of free speech, Berkeley, as lefties of "good conscience" looked on, untroubled.
As one of my favorite mandal'ed socialists was fond of saying, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. (Ring any bells, lefties?) Just don't chuck that stone at my subjects' heads, please.
The problem here, of course, isn't that the black-pajama'ed anarchists aren't still anarchists. They are. The problem is that Republicans, instead of combating them, have come to resemble them. It's just that their anarchists wear golf shirts and khakis and MAGA hats, while threatening FBI agents and to overturn elections.
"Sad," as their anarchist-in-chief is fond of saying.
As I've stated here outright on many occasions, I'm no Joe Biden fan. And there were perhaps many things not to like about his speech of the other night, the one that has Republican panties-in a-bunch, as they decry Biden as a "divisive president." (This, after seven solid years of excusing and even extolling the utterances of their Divider-in-Chief. Irony-awareness is always the first casualty when embracing autocracy.) I could've done without some of it myself, such as Biden mounting the dais at Independence Hall in front of red, Mephistophelean mood lighting that made him look like he was about to kick off Death Metal Night at the senior center.

Still, plenty of what he said was objectionable to "conservatives," not because he hadn't removed the beam from his own eye (say, the destructive Summer of 2020 riots, which Democrats conveniently love to never acknowledge), or because he was being "polarizing," but because much of what he said was true. And hard truth, as we know, often leaves a boo-boo.
So when Biden intones:
Too much of what's happening in our country today is not normal. Donald Trump and the MAGA Republicans represent an extremism that threatens the very foundations of our Republic. Now, I want to be very clear, very clear up front. Not every Republican, not even the majority of Republicans, are MAGA Republicans. Not every Republican embraces their extreme ideology. I know, because I've been able to work with these mainstream Republicans. But there's no question that the Republican Party today is dominated, driven and intimidated by Donald Trump and the MAGA Republicans. And that is a threat to this country.
Yeah, kind of. (Though not so sure Biden wasn't being overly magnanimous when he stipulated the majority weren't MAGA Republicans.) Just witness all the election-deniers who have prevailed in recent Republican primaries. Many of whom probably don't even believe their own bull***** They're just parroting the new party line for the sake of convenience and self-advancement.
And when Biden says: "MAGA Republicans do not respect the Constitution. They do not believe in the rule of law. They do not recognize the will of the people. They refuse to accept the results of a free election, and they're working right now as I speak in state after state to give power to decide elections in America to partisans and cronies, empowering election deniers to undermine democracy itself"?

Ditto. Based on the overwhelming evidence, it's hard to argue with that. If election-denying Republicans don't like partisan Democrats like Biden calling them "semi fascists" here's a novel solution: stop acting like semi-fascists! If you don't like the truth, the answer for the health of the republic's sake, if you have no regard for your own personal moral hygiene isn't to deny the truth, but to act in such a way as to turn it untrue. Wanna prove that your party isn't against democracy? Then quit rewarding undemocratic charlatans.
Which is why I'm no longer on the side I've (mostly) always been on, even if I haven't joined up with the other side, which has its own problems. Luckily or, depending on your viewpoint, unluckily, the only way to resolve our differences, if you're the sort of originalist "conservatives" so often pretend to be, is through our constitutional processes. Not through blowhard-pundit-gasbaggery or impassioned pitchfork-wielding. We have to settle differences at the ballot box, not in the streets or in the broken-glass-strewn, feces-caked halls of Congress after an angry mob has invaded it, at the behest of their then-president and with cover-fire laid down by their elected representatives who are afraid of him. And if a large portion of one-half of the country refuses to live by those results, well, that gives me even greater pause than some lefty nutjob cancelling comedians or insisting I use invented pronouns that are enemies of the English language. Which admittedly, are awful. Both behaviors evidence stupidity, petulant temper-tantrum throwing, and nods toward totalitarianism. But only one of those behaviors the former could permanently undo my ability to punish and eject the jackasses who embrace such stupidity.
George Orwell nicely outlined the hazards of choosing your side, and sticking with it no matter how misguided your side becomes. In his 1945 essay, "Notes on Nationalism," he wrote:
Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage torture, the use of hostages, forced labour, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians which does not change its moral colour when it is committed by "our" side……The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them……In nationalist thought there are facts which are both true and untrue, known and unknown. A known fact may be so unbearable that it is habitually pushed aside and not allowed to enter into logical processes, or on the other hand it may enter into every calculation and yet never be admitted as a fact, even in one's own mind.
Telling the truth shouldn't be considered a pose, to curry favor with one side or another. It should, instead, be the only available menu option. And if one side or the other can no longer tell the truth, no matter how long that side has been "our" side, it no longer deserves our loyalty. Instead, it deserves our enmity. For such dishonesty doesn't just make a mockery of truth, but of us.
TexasScientist
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Who agrees?

Mostly, I do.
Wangchung
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Woke people tend to be fascists so I'm having difficulty contrasting them.
Married A Horn
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Wangchung said:

Woke people tend to be fascists so I'm having difficulty contrasting them.


Tldr - is this a long winded post about the 2 branches of the democrat party?
Married A Horn

Hutto Hippo
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Osodecentx
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TexasScientist said:

Who agrees?

Mostly, I do.
I do mostly
Golem
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Fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. No conservative could ever be considered by any rational person to be a fascist in any way. Only socialist authoritarians like Hitler, Mussolini, FDR, Putin, or every modern democrat could be considered fascists. It requires that you use the government as a weapon to reward your friends and punish your enemies and that you use businesses you either subsidize or provide favorable legislation to, to carry out the work in the ostensible name of business which you cannot carry out as a government without looking as authoritarian as you actually are.

The democrat party is 100% fascist today. They collude with businesses to carry out censorship that would violate the first amendment if they openly did it. They pass along subsidies and perks to unsustainable 'green' businesses and tech companies their cronies run, while being told when to invest and divest to make the most profit - giving most of the fascist democrats better investment track records than Warren Buffett. They use brown shirts (Antifa and BLM) to riot and engage in Kristallnacht after Kristallnacht, replacing Jews with whites and asians as targets.
Married A Horn
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Golem said:

Fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. No conservative could ever be considered by any rational person to be a fascist in any way. Only socialist authoritarians like Hitler, Mussolini, FDR, Putin, or every modern democrat could be considered fascists. It requires that you use the government as a weapon to reward your friends and punish your enemies and that you use businesses you either subsidize or provide favorable legislation to, to carry out the work in the ostensible name of business which you cannot carry out as a government without looking as authoritarian as you actually are.

The democrat party is 100% fascist today. They collude with businesses to carry out censorship that would violate the first amendment if they openly did it. They pass along subsidies and perks to unsustainable 'green' businesses and tech companies their cronies run, while being told when to invest and divest to make the most profit - giving most of the fascist democrats better investment track records than Warren Buffett. They use brown shirts (Antifa and BLM) to riot and engage in Kristallnacht after Kristallnacht, replacing Jews with whites and asians as targets.


This is based on facts and real definitions. It won't register with woke fascists.
Married A Horn

Hutto Hippo
Trinity Trojan
Sam Lowry
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Married A Horn said:

Golem said:

Fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. No conservative could ever be considered by any rational person to be a fascist in any way. Only socialist authoritarians like Hitler, Mussolini, FDR, Putin, or every modern democrat could be considered fascists. It requires that you use the government as a weapon to reward your friends and punish your enemies and that you use businesses you either subsidize or provide favorable legislation to, to carry out the work in the ostensible name of business which you cannot carry out as a government without looking as authoritarian as you actually are.

The democrat party is 100% fascist today. They collude with businesses to carry out censorship that would violate the first amendment if they openly did it. They pass along subsidies and perks to unsustainable 'green' businesses and tech companies their cronies run, while being told when to invest and divest to make the most profit - giving most of the fascist democrats better investment track records than Warren Buffett. They use brown shirts (Antifa and BLM) to riot and engage in Kristallnacht after Kristallnacht, replacing Jews with whites and asians as targets.


This is based on facts and real definitions. It won't register with woke fascists.
Keep in mind it's from a guy who just spoke approvingly of Pinochet on another thread. Methinks he doth protest too much.
Golem
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Sam Lowry said:

Married A Horn said:

Golem said:

Fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. No conservative could ever be considered by any rational person to be a fascist in any way. Only socialist authoritarians like Hitler, Mussolini, FDR, Putin, or every modern democrat could be considered fascists. It requires that you use the government as a weapon to reward your friends and punish your enemies and that you use businesses you either subsidize or provide favorable legislation to, to carry out the work in the ostensible name of business which you cannot carry out as a government without looking as authoritarian as you actually are.

The democrat party is 100% fascist today. They collude with businesses to carry out censorship that would violate the first amendment if they openly did it. They pass along subsidies and perks to unsustainable 'green' businesses and tech companies their cronies run, while being told when to invest and divest to make the most profit - giving most of the fascist democrats better investment track records than Warren Buffett. They use brown shirts (Antifa and BLM) to riot and engage in Kristallnacht after Kristallnacht, replacing Jews with whites and asians as targets.


This is based on facts and real definitions. It won't register with woke fascists.
Keep in mind it's from a guy who just spoke approvingly of Pinochet on another thread. Methinks he doth protest too much.

Approvingly, you say? No. That's not true. But you seem to inhale oxygen and exhale lies these days, so par for the course.
Married A Horn
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Golem said:

Sam Lowry said:

Married A Horn said:

Golem said:

Fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. No conservative could ever be considered by any rational person to be a fascist in any way. Only socialist authoritarians like Hitler, Mussolini, FDR, Putin, or every modern democrat could be considered fascists. It requires that you use the government as a weapon to reward your friends and punish your enemies and that you use businesses you either subsidize or provide favorable legislation to, to carry out the work in the ostensible name of business which you cannot carry out as a government without looking as authoritarian as you actually are.

The democrat party is 100% fascist today. They collude with businesses to carry out censorship that would violate the first amendment if they openly did it. They pass along subsidies and perks to unsustainable 'green' businesses and tech companies their cronies run, while being told when to invest and divest to make the most profit - giving most of the fascist democrats better investment track records than Warren Buffett. They use brown shirts (Antifa and BLM) to riot and engage in Kristallnacht after Kristallnacht, replacing Jews with whites and asians as targets.


This is based on facts and real definitions. It won't register with woke fascists.
Keep in mind it's from a guy who just spoke approvingly of Pinochet on another thread. Methinks he doth protest too much.

Approvingly, you say? No. That's not true. But you seem to inhale oxygen and exhale lies these days, so par for the course.


Projection. The left's new s.o.p.
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Hutto Hippo
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Limited IQ Redneck in PU
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Good essay. I can understand why some would think its too long.
I have found theres only two ways to go:
Living fast or dying slow.
I dont want to live forever.
But I will live while I'm here.
BearN
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whiterock
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author got it wrong at the second word in the title. It's not "wokeism vs. semi-fascism."

Wokeism IS semi-fascism.
Whiskey Pete
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Mothra
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A lot of what he said is accurate IMO. Where I think he gets it significantly wrong is in his belief that MAGA is a bigger threat than wokeism. Those stifling speech, canceling people for thought, rioting and pillaging under the guise of "peaceful protest," mandating and forcing medical decisions on Americans and shutting down private business - those are truly fascists, and the reason that many conservatives who loathe Trump understand that as bad as he is, he is the lesser of the evils.
Sam Lowry
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TexasScientis said:

George Orwell nicely outlined the hazards of choosing your side, and sticking with it no matter how misguided your side becomes. In his 1945 essay, "Notes on Nationalism," he wrote:

Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits but according to who does them....
That's the reaction to Biden's speech in a nutshell. The only thing Republicans hate about divisive rhetoric is the fact that it's coming from a Democrat.
Wangchung
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Sam Lowry said:

TexasScientis said:

George Orwell nicely outlined the hazards of choosing your side, and sticking with it no matter how misguided your side becomes. In his 1945 essay, "Notes on Nationalism," he wrote:

Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits but according to who does them....
That's the reaction to Biden's speech in a nutshell. The only thing Republicans hate about divisive rhetoric is the fact that it's coming from a Democrat.
Well, when the mainstream media constantly promotes democrats and their agendas the republicans get to see such hate broadcast their way daily. A year of democrat riots and the media supports it. A few hours of rowdy unarmed elderly protestors at the capital and we are still having congressional hearings. We see the double standard, even if you pretend not to.
Sam Lowry
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Wangchung said:

Sam Lowry said:

TexasScientis said:

George Orwell nicely outlined the hazards of choosing your side, and sticking with it no matter how misguided your side becomes. In his 1945 essay, "Notes on Nationalism," he wrote:

Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits but according to who does them....
That's the reaction to Biden's speech in a nutshell. The only thing Republicans hate about divisive rhetoric is the fact that it's coming from a Democrat.
Well, when the mainstream media constantly promotes democrats and their agendas the republicans get to see such hate broadcast their way daily. A year of democrat riots and the media supports it. A few hours of rowdy unarmed elderly protestors at the capital and we are still having congressional hearings. We see the double standard, even if you pretend not to.
I see double standards in a lot of places.
whiterock
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Sam Lowry said:

Wangchung said:

Sam Lowry said:

TexasScientis said:

George Orwell nicely outlined the hazards of choosing your side, and sticking with it no matter how misguided your side becomes. In his 1945 essay, "Notes on Nationalism," he wrote:

Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits but according to who does them....
That's the reaction to Biden's speech in a nutshell. The only thing Republicans hate about divisive rhetoric is the fact that it's coming from a Democrat.
Well, when the mainstream media constantly promotes democrats and their agendas the republicans get to see such hate broadcast their way daily. A year of democrat riots and the media supports it. A few hours of rowdy unarmed elderly protestors at the capital and we are still having congressional hearings. We see the double standard, even if you pretend not to.
I see double standards in a lot of places.
So then you do actually read your own posts. Whoda thunk.
Sam Lowry
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whiterock said:

Sam Lowry said:

Wangchung said:

Sam Lowry said:

TexasScientis said:

George Orwell nicely outlined the hazards of choosing your side, and sticking with it no matter how misguided your side becomes. In his 1945 essay, "Notes on Nationalism," he wrote:

Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits but according to who does them....
That's the reaction to Biden's speech in a nutshell. The only thing Republicans hate about divisive rhetoric is the fact that it's coming from a Democrat.
Well, when the mainstream media constantly promotes democrats and their agendas the republicans get to see such hate broadcast their way daily. A year of democrat riots and the media supports it. A few hours of rowdy unarmed elderly protestors at the capital and we are still having congressional hearings. We see the double standard, even if you pretend not to.
I see double standards in a lot of places.
So then you do actually read your own posts. Whoda thunk.
It would be interesting if you could point to some examples. Not that I expect any...it just occurred to me that it would be interesting.
fadskier
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TexasScientist said:

Who agrees?

Mostly, I do.
I stopped reading when he considered Trump worse than Hillary. Trump was awful (after the first two years) but Hillary and the Dems resentment at the loss, was far, far worse.
Salute the Marines - Joe Biden
fadskier
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Sam Lowry said:

TexasScientis said:

George Orwell nicely outlined the hazards of choosing your side, and sticking with it no matter how misguided your side becomes. In his 1945 essay, "Notes on Nationalism," he wrote:

Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits but according to who does them....
That's the reaction to Biden's speech in a nutshell. The only thing Republicans hate about divisive rhetoric is the fact that it's coming from a Democrat.
There are many Republicans, like me, who did not support Trump's divisive rhetoric. Dems call it out only when they other side does it.

I fail to see how Trump "divided" the nation. When Hillary lost, the Democrats reaction was the divisive factor. Biden promised to unify and he has not,

Having said that, please tell me how Trump divided the nation....and how has Biden unified.
Salute the Marines - Joe Biden
fadskier
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TexasScientist said:

Who agrees?

Mostly, I do.
As far as I can see, only one party has put into practice "controlled speech." Isn't that an aspect of fascism?
Salute the Marines - Joe Biden
Mothra
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Sam Lowry said:

TexasScientis said:

George Orwell nicely outlined the hazards of choosing your side, and sticking with it no matter how misguided your side becomes. In his 1945 essay, "Notes on Nationalism," he wrote:

Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits but according to who does them....
That's the reaction to Biden's speech in a nutshell. The only thing Republicans hate about divisive rhetoric is the fact that it's coming from a Democrat.
What's the answer for those who believe wokeism is a bigger danger to the country than a bunch of bumpkins who think Trump is their savior?

You're awfully critical of those of us who would hold our nose and vote for Trump, when you are unable to proffer a viable alternative. Some people don't believe 4 more years of wokeism is better for the country. I am surprised you do.
Mothra
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fadskier said:

Sam Lowry said:

TexasScientis said:

George Orwell nicely outlined the hazards of choosing your side, and sticking with it no matter how misguided your side becomes. In his 1945 essay, "Notes on Nationalism," he wrote:

Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits but according to who does them....
That's the reaction to Biden's speech in a nutshell. The only thing Republicans hate about divisive rhetoric is the fact that it's coming from a Democrat.
There are many Republicans, like me, who did not support Trump's divisive rhetoric. Dems call it out only when they other side does it.

I fail to see how Trump "divided" the nation. When Hillary lost, the Democrats reaction was the divisive factor. Biden promised to unify and he has not,

Having said that, please tell me how Trump divided the nation....and how has Biden unified.
I am more in your camp than Sam's certainly, but it would be hard to deny that Trump was a total *******, unbecoming of the office he held. He could have been a little more conciliatory and presidential in his behavior. Instead, he behaved like a petty, petulant third grader, constantly deriding those who he disagreed with. I know some people loved this about him - a Republican who finally stood up to the dirty Democrat tactics. But there was a smarter way to engage them than to resort to 5th grade school yard insults. See DeSantis.

I do not deny that the Dems and media shared much of the blame, but it would be impossible to deny that Trump couldn't control his worst impulses.
Sam Lowry
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fadskier said:

Sam Lowry said:

TexasScientis said:

George Orwell nicely outlined the hazards of choosing your side, and sticking with it no matter how misguided your side becomes. In his 1945 essay, "Notes on Nationalism," he wrote:

Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits but according to who does them....
That's the reaction to Biden's speech in a nutshell. The only thing Republicans hate about divisive rhetoric is the fact that it's coming from a Democrat.
There are many Republicans, like me, who did not support Trump's divisive rhetoric. Dems call it out only when they other side does it.

I fail to see how Trump "divided" the nation. When Hillary lost, the Democrats reaction was the divisive factor. Biden promised to unify and he has not,

Having said that, please tell me how Trump divided the nation....and how has Biden unified.
Biden hasn't done much of anything. He is basically a living stereotype. If you think liberals are weak, pandering, and ineffectual, he exemplifies those qualities to an almost cartoonish degree.

Trump lost the election in 2020. He demanded to be reinstated as president last week. That says all you need to know about how divisive he's been, but if you need more, just look at everything he's said and done in the last two years. You'd be hard pressed to find a quote that wasn't designed to provoke outrage. He's still selling the same lies that have led to violence in the past. He's got a majority of Republicans convinced the system only works if he and his chosen candidates win. And so on.
Canada2017
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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

Good essay. I can understand why some would think its too long.


Didn't read it for several reasons .

Would you mind explaining why it is a good essay ?

( honest question )
Sam Lowry
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Mothra said:

Sam Lowry said:

TexasScientis said:

George Orwell nicely outlined the hazards of choosing your side, and sticking with it no matter how misguided your side becomes. In his 1945 essay, "Notes on Nationalism," he wrote:

Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits but according to who does them....
That's the reaction to Biden's speech in a nutshell. The only thing Republicans hate about divisive rhetoric is the fact that it's coming from a Democrat.
What's the answer for those who believe wokeism is a bigger danger to the country than a bunch of bumpkins who think Trump is their savior?

You're awfully critical of those of us who would hold our nose and vote for Trump, when you are unable to proffer a viable alternative. Some people don't believe 4 more years of wokeism is better for the country. I am surprised you do.
I also believe wokeism is probably a bigger danger in the long run, in the same way that communism was a bigger danger than fascism. The left's victims numbered in the 100 millions and those of right perhaps only in the tens of millions. The distinction becomes somewhat academic when you're living under the boot. The European fascist regimes of the last century, which we now see were so terrible, arose to a large extent from fear of the left. It was not an unreasonable fear, either. A strong leader is very appealing when mobs are running rampant, burning down churches, etc. But there is a high price. The most important choice is not between the tyranny of the right or the left, but between tyranny and the rule of law. It's more important than what happens in any one election. It may not always have a champion, but we must insist on it. That's the viable alternative.
Mothra
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Sam Lowry said:

Mothra said:

Sam Lowry said:

TexasScientis said:

George Orwell nicely outlined the hazards of choosing your side, and sticking with it no matter how misguided your side becomes. In his 1945 essay, "Notes on Nationalism," he wrote:

Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits but according to who does them....
That's the reaction to Biden's speech in a nutshell. The only thing Republicans hate about divisive rhetoric is the fact that it's coming from a Democrat.
What's the answer for those who believe wokeism is a bigger danger to the country than a bunch of bumpkins who think Trump is their savior?

You're awfully critical of those of us who would hold our nose and vote for Trump, when you are unable to proffer a viable alternative. Some people don't believe 4 more years of wokeism is better for the country. I am surprised you do.
I also believe wokeism is probably a bigger danger in the long run, in the same way that communism was a bigger danger than fascism. The left's victims numbered in the 100 millions and those of right perhaps only in the tens of millions. The distinction becomes somewhat academic when you're living under the boot. The European fascist regimes of the last century, which we now see were so terrible, arose to a large extent from fear of the left. It was not an unreasonable fear, either. A strong leader is very appealing when mobs are running rampant, burning down churches, etc. But there is a high price. The most important choice is not between the tyranny of the right or the left, but between tyranny and the rule of law. It's more important than what happens in any one election. It may not always have a champion, but we must insist on it. That's the viable alternative.
Practically speaking, what are you suggesting then? Let's say Trump gets the nomination. Is it sit out the election and allow wokeism to rule the day? You see 4 more years of Trump as a bigger danger than Democrat rule?
Whiskey Pete
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Mothra said:

fadskier said:

Sam Lowry said:

TexasScientis said:

George Orwell nicely outlined the hazards of choosing your side, and sticking with it no matter how misguided your side becomes. In his 1945 essay, "Notes on Nationalism," he wrote:

Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits but according to who does them....
That's the reaction to Biden's speech in a nutshell. The only thing Republicans hate about divisive rhetoric is the fact that it's coming from a Democrat.
There are many Republicans, like me, who did not support Trump's divisive rhetoric. Dems call it out only when they other side does it.

I fail to see how Trump "divided" the nation. When Hillary lost, the Democrats reaction was the divisive factor. Biden promised to unify and he has not,

Having said that, please tell me how Trump divided the nation....and how has Biden unified.
I am more in your camp than Sam's certainly, but it would be hard to deny that Trump was a total *******, unbecoming of the office he held. He could have been a little more conciliatory and presidential in his behavior. Instead, he behaved like a petty, petulant third grader, constantly deriding those who he disagreed with. I know some people loved this about him - a Republican who finally stood up to the dirty Democrat tactics. But there was a smarter way to engage them than to resort to 5th grade school yard insults. See DeSantis.

I do not deny that the Dems and media shared much of the blame, but it would be impossible to deny that Trump couldn't control his worst impulses.
Pretty much it in a nutshell.

Republicans need someone with enough balls to stand up to democrat dirty politics and that someone needs to do it smarter.

That someone is Ron DeSantis

Funny thing, the left is so fueled by hate, they can't let Trump go. If they would just shut up about him, I have a strong feeling Trump would lose steam. Polls had begun to show it.
Harrison Bergeron
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Golem said:

Fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. No conservative could ever be considered by any rational person to be a fascist in any way. Only socialist authoritarians like Hitler, Mussolini, FDR, Putin, or every modern democrat could be considered fascists. It requires that you use the government as a weapon to reward your friends and punish your enemies and that you use businesses you either subsidize or provide favorable legislation to, to carry out the work in the ostensible name of business which you cannot carry out as a government without looking as authoritarian as you actually are.

The democrat party is 100% fascist today. They collude with businesses to carry out censorship that would violate the first amendment if they openly did it. They pass along subsidies and perks to unsustainable 'green' businesses and tech companies their cronies run, while being told when to invest and divest to make the most profit - giving most of the fascist democrats better investment track records than Warren Buffett. They use brown shirts (Antifa and BLM) to riot and engage in Kristallnacht after Kristallnacht, replacing Jews with whites and asians as targets.
One of my political pet peeves is the tendency of the Democrat Party to define anything it disagrees with as some scary word like "fascist." Every time Biden says something stupid like ULTRAMAGA or SEMIFASCIST the Democrat media runs with it uncritically. You are correct that private companies working at the behest of a political party actually is a core tenet of actual fascism. The FBI using its power to have media platform selectively censor politically sensitive issues is more "fascist" than anything a Republican has done.

It is similar with "divisive" - it does not mean "disagrees with me." Most politicians by definition are divisive, but Biden traditionally has been among the most divisive and as president certainly has taken divisive rhetoric to new levels. Trump was individually divisive by making petty, immature "mean tweets" but rarely was he so corporately divisive.
Sam Lowry
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Mothra said:

Sam Lowry said:

Mothra said:

Sam Lowry said:

TexasScientis said:

George Orwell nicely outlined the hazards of choosing your side, and sticking with it no matter how misguided your side becomes. In his 1945 essay, "Notes on Nationalism," he wrote:

Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits but according to who does them....
That's the reaction to Biden's speech in a nutshell. The only thing Republicans hate about divisive rhetoric is the fact that it's coming from a Democrat.
What's the answer for those who believe wokeism is a bigger danger to the country than a bunch of bumpkins who think Trump is their savior?

You're awfully critical of those of us who would hold our nose and vote for Trump, when you are unable to proffer a viable alternative. Some people don't believe 4 more years of wokeism is better for the country. I am surprised you do.
I also believe wokeism is probably a bigger danger in the long run, in the same way that communism was a bigger danger than fascism. The left's victims numbered in the 100 millions and those of right perhaps only in the tens of millions. The distinction becomes somewhat academic when you're living under the boot. The European fascist regimes of the last century, which we now see were so terrible, arose to a large extent from fear of the left. It was not an unreasonable fear, either. A strong leader is very appealing when mobs are running rampant, burning down churches, etc. But there is a high price. The most important choice is not between the tyranny of the right or the left, but between tyranny and the rule of law. It's more important than what happens in any one election. It may not always have a champion, but we must insist on it. That's the viable alternative.
Practically speaking, what are you suggesting then? Let's say Trump gets the nomination. Is it sit out the election and allow wokeism to rule the day? You see 4 more years of Trump as a bigger danger than Democrat rule?
Yes, I'll sit out if he's nominated. There are many fronts on which to fight wokeism. I supported Trump in 2016, despite my misgivings, because there were huge implications for SCOTUS that year. That was the key battle at the time. Trump followed through and put us in a good position to defend ourselves for many years to come. Republicans need to focus on being a party that can actually govern and implement better solutions than the Dems (see health care, for example). There's a spiritual front as well. Marxism appeals to people who struggle with lack of meaning in their lives. So does right-wing extremism for that matter. As Christians I think we need to take a step back and look at what we've become associated with. I'm not just talking about mean tweets. Politics is rough, but this is more than that. The open reveling in lies, paranoia, and even violence is counter-productive to our witness. A lot of people seem to think it's an effective weapon against the craziness of the left, but it isn't. Acting crazy just makes one look crazy.
Sam Lowry
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Harrison Bergeron said:

Golem said:

Fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. No conservative could ever be considered by any rational person to be a fascist in any way. Only socialist authoritarians like Hitler, Mussolini, FDR, Putin, or every modern democrat could be considered fascists. It requires that you use the government as a weapon to reward your friends and punish your enemies and that you use businesses you either subsidize or provide favorable legislation to, to carry out the work in the ostensible name of business which you cannot carry out as a government without looking as authoritarian as you actually are.

The democrat party is 100% fascist today. They collude with businesses to carry out censorship that would violate the first amendment if they openly did it. They pass along subsidies and perks to unsustainable 'green' businesses and tech companies their cronies run, while being told when to invest and divest to make the most profit - giving most of the fascist democrats better investment track records than Warren Buffett. They use brown shirts (Antifa and BLM) to riot and engage in Kristallnacht after Kristallnacht, replacing Jews with whites and asians as targets.
One of my political pet peeves is the tendency of the Democrat Party to define anything it disagrees with as some scary word like "fascist."
That's a pet peeve of mine as well. Another is the tendency of the Republican Party to prove them right.
Mothra
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Sam Lowry said:

Mothra said:

Sam Lowry said:

Mothra said:

Sam Lowry said:

TexasScientis said:

George Orwell nicely outlined the hazards of choosing your side, and sticking with it no matter how misguided your side becomes. In his 1945 essay, "Notes on Nationalism," he wrote:

Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits but according to who does them....
That's the reaction to Biden's speech in a nutshell. The only thing Republicans hate about divisive rhetoric is the fact that it's coming from a Democrat.
What's the answer for those who believe wokeism is a bigger danger to the country than a bunch of bumpkins who think Trump is their savior?

You're awfully critical of those of us who would hold our nose and vote for Trump, when you are unable to proffer a viable alternative. Some people don't believe 4 more years of wokeism is better for the country. I am surprised you do.
I also believe wokeism is probably a bigger danger in the long run, in the same way that communism was a bigger danger than fascism. The left's victims numbered in the 100 millions and those of right perhaps only in the tens of millions. The distinction becomes somewhat academic when you're living under the boot. The European fascist regimes of the last century, which we now see were so terrible, arose to a large extent from fear of the left. It was not an unreasonable fear, either. A strong leader is very appealing when mobs are running rampant, burning down churches, etc. But there is a high price. The most important choice is not between the tyranny of the right or the left, but between tyranny and the rule of law. It's more important than what happens in any one election. It may not always have a champion, but we must insist on it. That's the viable alternative.
Practically speaking, what are you suggesting then? Let's say Trump gets the nomination. Is it sit out the election and allow wokeism to rule the day? You see 4 more years of Trump as a bigger danger than Democrat rule?
Yes, I'll sit out if he's nominated. There are many fronts on which to fight wokeism. I supported Trump in 2016, despite my misgivings, because there were huge implications for SCOTUS that year. That was the key battle at the time. Trump followed through and put us in a good position to defend ourselves for many years to come. Republicans need to focus on being a party that can actually govern and implement better solutions than the Dems (see health care, for example). There's a spiritual front as well. Marxism appeals to people who struggle with lack of meaning in their lives. So does right-wing extremism for that matter. As Christians I think we need to take a step back and look at what we've become associated with. I'm not just talking about mean tweets. Politics is rough, but this is more than that. The open reveling in lies, paranoia, and even violence is counter-productive to our witness. A lot of people seem to think it's an effective weapon against the craziness of the left, but it isn't. Acting crazy just makes one look crazy.
On what other fronts are you fighting wokeism, if not at the ballot box?

I don't disagree with much of your post. I simply don't believe we fight wokeism by allowing the woke to get elected, and to enact their woke ideas, whether through legislation or executive order. 8 years of woke rule will only further erode the mores you and I hold dear. Imagine what kind of legislation would have passed but for a moderate like Manchin. What will the new normal be in 2028? Undoubtedly, even further to the left than where we are currently. Most likely also closer to nuclear war, given the current trajectory. Is that worse than Trump, as bad as you and I agree that he is?

I hear what you are saying, but I just don't know.
fadskier
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Mothra said:

fadskier said:

Sam Lowry said:

TexasScientis said:

George Orwell nicely outlined the hazards of choosing your side, and sticking with it no matter how misguided your side becomes. In his 1945 essay, "Notes on Nationalism," he wrote:

Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits but according to who does them....
That's the reaction to Biden's speech in a nutshell. The only thing Republicans hate about divisive rhetoric is the fact that it's coming from a Democrat.
There are many Republicans, like me, who did not support Trump's divisive rhetoric. Dems call it out only when they other side does it.

I fail to see how Trump "divided" the nation. When Hillary lost, the Democrats reaction was the divisive factor. Biden promised to unify and he has not,

Having said that, please tell me how Trump divided the nation....and how has Biden unified.
I am more in your camp than Sam's certainly, but it would be hard to deny that Trump was a total *******, unbecoming of the office he held. He could have been a little more conciliatory and presidential in his behavior. Instead, he behaved like a petty, petulant third grader, constantly deriding those who he disagreed with. I know some people loved this about him - a Republican who finally stood up to the dirty Democrat tactics. But there was a smarter way to engage them than to resort to 5th grade school yard insults. See DeSantis.

I do not deny that the Dems and media shared much of the blame, but it would be impossible to deny that Trump couldn't control his worst impulses.
I agree but I'm not sure his twitter tantrums divided the nation. I see the Dems behavior at Kavanaugh as much more divisive...
Salute the Marines - Joe Biden
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