Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

You perceive the world as black and white.

Our world is grey.

---

Maybe yours is grey. Mine is in color.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

You perceive the world as black and white.

Our world is grey.

---

Maybe yours is grey. Mine is in color.

---

Satan was the most beautiful angel.

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

I wonder if most people realize that twitter skews like 90% to the liberal-left positions.

"ruling elites" & "corrupt intelligence services" is not the kind of talk that usually happens on twitter.

It's Ukraine flags and pronouns in the bios and lots of talk about "upholding international norms" and "protecting our scared democracy from fascism"

---

I vote center-right about 90% of the time. I've actually voted with you in my life more than against you more than likely. Yet you're falling for the "Ukrainian Nazi" bit and "russia is just defending themselves against NATO aggression" bit. Mind-blowing that you can't understand how disinformation campaigns work, especially by Russia/China.

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

I wonder if most people realize that twitter skews like 90% to the liberal-left positions.

"ruling elites" & "corrupt intelligence services" is not the kind of talk that usually happens on twitter.

It's Ukraine flags and pronouns in the bios and lots of talk about "upholding international norms" and "protecting our scared democracy from fascism"

---

I vote center-right about 90% of the time. I've actually voted with you in my life more than against you more than likely. Yet you're falling for the "Ukrainian Nazi" bit and "russia is just defending themselves against NATO aggression" bit. Mind-blowing that you can't understand how disinformation campaigns work, especially by Russia/China.

---

Nobody here is defending Russia, we just don't want to turn this into WW3 or another 'War on terror' situation where escalation kills more people than brokering peace.

Sometimes we reap what we sew. NATO/US/EU didn't get their **** together with Ukraine and this is the result of failed diplomacy.

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

I wonder if most people realize that twitter skews like 90% to the liberal-left positions.

"ruling elites" & "corrupt intelligence services" is not the kind of talk that usually happens on twitter.

It's Ukraine flags and pronouns in the bios and lots of talk about "upholding international norms" and "protecting our scared democracy from fascism"

---

I vote center-right about 90% of the time. I've actually voted with you in my life more than against you more than likely. Yet you're falling for the "Ukrainian Nazi" bit and "russia is just defending themselves against NATO aggression" bit. Mind-blowing that you can't understand how disinformation campaigns work, especially by Russia/China.

---

Nobody here is defending Russia, we just don't want to turn this into WW3 or another 'War on terror' situation where escalation kills more people than brokering peace.

---

Nor do I. And the path we're on right now isn't going to have that. Russia is getting their ass kicked on the battlefield. ANd it's their own fault.

---

The more we kick their ass, the more desperate they'll become and they'll resort to desperate measures. Russia has 10-30 megaton nukes.

Would you rather have a peace deal where parts of Ukraine are lost...or would you rather see Russia resort to using these nukes on Ukraine? I fear that's where this escalation is headed.

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

I wonder if most people realize that twitter skews like 90% to the liberal-left positions.

"ruling elites" & "corrupt intelligence services" is not the kind of talk that usually happens on twitter.

It's Ukraine flags and pronouns in the bios and lots of talk about "upholding international norms" and "protecting our scared democracy from fascism"

---

I vote center-right about 90% of the time. I've actually voted with you in my life more than against you more than likely. Yet you're falling for the "Ukrainian Nazi" bit and "russia is just defending themselves against NATO aggression" bit. Mind-blowing that you can't understand how disinformation campaigns work, especially by Russia/China.

---

Nobody here is defending Russia, we just don't want to turn this into WW3 or another 'War on terror' situation where escalation kills more people than brokering peace.

---

Nor do I. And the path we're on right now isn't going to have that. Russia is getting their ass kicked on the battlefield. ANd it's their own fault.

---

The more we kick their ass, the more desperate they'll become and they'll resort to desperate measures. Russia has 10-30 megaton nukes.

Would you rather have a peace deal where parts of Ukraine are lost...or would you rather they resort to using these nukes on Ukraine?

---

Why should Russia get to steal parts of Ukraine to solve their economic/demographic and specifically the Oil/Gas rich areas of Ukraine and then get to settle with some of the theft once they got 28 of their 32 teeth knocked out? They're not going to use nuclear weapons. They'd have done so by now. Their only hope now is being a strip mine for China or quitting, admitting defeat, and more than likely in a decade or so, get back within the graces of the Western world. Neither of those solutions works out well for them if they use nukes.

---

I operate as if the worst outcome is possible because we're dealing with human lives.

I'm not going to assume, guess or hope Russia tucks their tail and runs.

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

I wonder if most people realize that twitter skews like 90% to the liberal-left positions.

"ruling elites" & "corrupt intelligence services" is not the kind of talk that usually happens on twitter.

It's Ukraine flags and pronouns in the bios and lots of talk about "upholding international norms" and "protecting our scared democracy from fascism"

---

I vote center-right about 90% of the time. I've actually voted with you in my life more than against you more than likely. Yet you're falling for the "Ukrainian Nazi" bit and "russia is just defending themselves against NATO aggression" bit. Mind-blowing that you can't understand how disinformation campaigns work, especially by Russia/China.

---

Nobody here is defending Russia, we just don't want to turn this into WW3 or another 'War on terror' situation where escalation kills more people than brokering peace.

---

Nor do I. And the path we're on right now isn't going to have that. Russia is getting their ass kicked on the battlefield. ANd it's their own fault.

---

The more we kick their ass, the more desperate they'll become and they'll resort to desperate measures. Russia has 10-30 megaton nukes.

Would you rather have a peace deal where parts of Ukraine are lost...or would you rather they resort to using these nukes on Ukraine?

---

Why should Russia get to steal parts of Ukraine to solve their economic/demographic and specifically the Oil/Gas rich areas of Ukraine and then get to settle with some of the theft once they got 28 of their 32 teeth knocked out? They're not going to use nuclear weapons. They'd have done so by now. Their only hope now is being a strip mine for China or quitting, admitting defeat, and more than likely in a decade or so, get back within the graces of the Western world. Neither of those solutions works out well for them if they use nukes.

---

I operate as if the worst outcome is possible because we're dealing with human lives.

I'm not going to assume, guess or hope Russia tucks their tail and runs.

---

I operate on more realistic platforms... like the Prisoner's Dilemma and a dozen or so other game theoretical constructs which I've studied.

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

I wonder if most people realize that twitter skews like 90% to the liberal-left positions.

"ruling elites" & "corrupt intelligence services" is not the kind of talk that usually happens on twitter.

It's Ukraine flags and pronouns in the bios and lots of talk about "upholding international norms" and "protecting our scared democracy from fascism"

---

I vote center-right about 90% of the time. I've actually voted with you in my life more than against you more than likely. Yet you're falling for the "Ukrainian Nazi" bit and "russia is just defending themselves against NATO aggression" bit. Mind-blowing that you can't understand how disinformation campaigns work, especially by Russia/China.

---

Nobody here is defending Russia, we just don't want to turn this into WW3 or another 'War on terror' situation where escalation kills more people than brokering peace.

---

Nor do I. And the path we're on right now isn't going to have that. Russia is getting their ass kicked on the battlefield. ANd it's their own fault.

---

The more we kick their ass, the more desperate they'll become and they'll resort to desperate measures. Russia has 10-30 megaton nukes.

Would you rather have a peace deal where parts of Ukraine are lost...or would you rather they resort to using these nukes on Ukraine?

---

Why should Russia get to steal parts of Ukraine to solve their economic/demographic and specifically the Oil/Gas rich areas of Ukraine and then get to settle with some of the theft once they got 28 of their 32 teeth knocked out? They're not going to use nuclear weapons. They'd have done so by now. Their only hope now is being a strip mine for China or quitting, admitting defeat, and more than likely in a decade or so, get back within the graces of the Western world. Neither of those solutions works out well for them if they use nukes.

---

I operate as if the worst outcome is possible because we're dealing with human lives.

I'm not going to assume, guess or hope Russia tucks their tail and runs.

---

I operate on more realistic platforms... like the Prisoner's Dilemma and a dozen or so other game theoretical constructs which I've studied.

---

We're not dealing with the west. We're dealing with absolute psychopaths who will go down in flames and take everyone with them.

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

I wonder if most people realize that twitter skews like 90% to the liberal-left positions.

"ruling elites" & "corrupt intelligence services" is not the kind of talk that usually happens on twitter.

It's Ukraine flags and pronouns in the bios and lots of talk about "upholding international norms" and "protecting our scared democracy from fascism"

---

I vote center-right about 90% of the time. I've actually voted with you in my life more than against you more than likely. Yet you're falling for the "Ukrainian Nazi" bit and "russia is just defending themselves against NATO aggression" bit. Mind-blowing that you can't understand how disinformation campaigns work, especially by Russia/China.

---

Nobody here is defending Russia, we just don't want to turn this into WW3 or another 'War on terror' situation where escalation kills more people than brokering peace.

---

Nor do I. And the path we're on right now isn't going to have that. Russia is getting their ass kicked on the battlefield. ANd it's their own fault.

---

The more we kick their ass, the more desperate they'll become and they'll resort to desperate measures. Russia has 10-30 megaton nukes.

Would you rather have a peace deal where parts of Ukraine are lost...or would you rather they resort to using these nukes on Ukraine?

---

Why should Russia get to steal parts of Ukraine to solve their economic/demographic and specifically the Oil/Gas rich areas of Ukraine and then get to settle with some of the theft once they got 28 of their 32 teeth knocked out? They're not going to use nuclear weapons. They'd have done so by now. Their only hope now is being a strip mine for China or quitting, admitting defeat, and more than likely in a decade or so, get back within the graces of the Western world. Neither of those solutions works out well for them if they use nukes.

---

I operate as if the worst outcome is possible because we're dealing with human lives.

I'm not going to assume, guess or hope Russia tucks their tail and runs.

---

I operate on more realistic platforms... like the Prisoner's Dilemma and a dozen or so other game theoretical constructs which I've studied.

---

We're not dealing with the west. We're dealing with absolute psychopaths who will go down in flames and take everyone with them.

---

We're also dealing with other chess players who have access to information, knowledge of how the game operates, etc. Their gambit is well known, poorly rehearsed, and even more poorly defended. They are trying to trot an 80 year old battle plan out there with 30-50 year old technology and threats from 40 years ago. It's not working well, and they know it. Putin longs for Soviet Russia, but he also doesn't long for a completely broken federation that devolves into 18 or so different vassal city-states or ethnic countries. At some point, the people around him will realize the lot he has cast was burned from the jump and will do what should have been done long ago.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

You perceive the world as black and white.

Our world is grey.

---

Maybe yours is grey. Mine is in color.

---

Satan was the most beautiful angel.

---

Joel Osteen comes to mind ...

Oldbear83 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

You perceive the world as black and white.

Our world is grey.

---

Maybe yours is grey. Mine is in color.

---

i was going to say the same. Color requires discernment and nuance.

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

I wonder if most people realize that twitter skews like 90% to the liberal-left positions.

"ruling elites" & "corrupt intelligence services" is not the kind of talk that usually happens on twitter.

It's Ukraine flags and pronouns in the bios and lots of talk about "upholding international norms" and "protecting our scared democracy from fascism"

---

I think like any social media platform people look for likes. The ones they get and the ones they give. It's the ultimate in ego and confirmation bias. You can find anything you want with an instant social group/crowd to affirm your cause/thought/purpose etc.

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

I wonder if most people realize that twitter skews like 90% to the liberal-left positions.

"ruling elites" & "corrupt intelligence services" is not the kind of talk that usually happens on twitter.

It's Ukraine flags and pronouns in the bios and lots of talk about "upholding international norms" and "protecting our scared democracy from fascism"

---

I vote center-right about 90% of the time. I've actually voted with you in my life more than against you more than likely. Yet you're falling for the "Ukrainian Nazi" bit and "russia is just defending themselves against NATO aggression" bit. Mind-blowing that you can't understand how disinformation campaigns work, especially by Russia/China.

---

Nobody here is defending Russia, we just don't want to turn this into WW3 or another 'War on terror' situation where escalation kills more people than brokering peace.

---

Nor do I. And the path we're on right now isn't going to have that. Russia is getting their ass kicked on the battlefield. ANd it's their own fault.

---

The more we kick their ass, the more desperate they'll become and they'll resort to desperate measures. Russia has 10-30 megaton nukes.

Would you rather have a peace deal where parts of Ukraine are lost...or would you rather they resort to using these nukes on Ukraine?

---

Why should Russia get to steal parts of Ukraine to solve their economic/demographic and specifically the Oil/Gas rich areas of Ukraine and then get to settle with some of the theft once they got 28 of their 32 teeth knocked out? They're not going to use nuclear weapons. They'd have done so by now. Their only hope now is being a strip mine for China or quitting, admitting defeat, and more than likely in a decade or so, get back within the graces of the Western world. Neither of those solutions works out well for them if they use nukes.

---

I operate as if the worst outcome is possible because we're dealing with human lives.

I'm not going to assume, guess or hope Russia tucks their tail and runs.

---

I operate on more realistic platforms... like the Prisoner's Dilemma and a dozen or so other game theoretical constructs which I've studied.

---

We're not dealing with the west. We're dealing with absolute psychopaths who will go down in flames and take everyone with them.

---

We're also dealing with other chess players who have access to information, knowledge of how the game operates, etc. Their gambit is well known, poorly rehearsed, and even more poorly defended. They are trying to trot an 80 year old battle plan out there with 30-50 year old technology and threats from 40 years ago. It's not working well, and they know it. Putin longs for Soviet Russia, but he also doesn't long for a completely broken federation that devolves into 18 or so different vassal city-states or ethnic countries. At some point, the people around him will realize the lot he has cast was burned from the jump and will do what should have been done long ago.

---

I hope you're right.

I'm not pushing propaganda or just being an ass. The 'war on terror' pissed me off and cost us dearly and I have a very hard time trusting our leaders.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

You perceive the world as black and white.

Our world is grey.

---

Maybe yours is grey. Mine is in color.

---

Satan was the most beautiful angel.

---

Joel Osteen comes to mind ...

---

Are you saying that Satan had a facelift?

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

I wonder if most people realize that twitter skews like 90% to the liberal-left positions.

"ruling elites" & "corrupt intelligence services" is not the kind of talk that usually happens on twitter.

It's Ukraine flags and pronouns in the bios and lots of talk about "upholding international norms" and "protecting our scared democracy from fascism"

---

I vote center-right about 90% of the time. I've actually voted with you in my life more than against you more than likely. Yet you're falling for the "Ukrainian Nazi" bit and "russia is just defending themselves against NATO aggression" bit. Mind-blowing that you can't understand how disinformation campaigns work, especially by Russia/China.

---

Nobody here is defending Russia, we just don't want to turn this into WW3 or another 'War on terror' situation where escalation kills more people than brokering peace.

---

Nor do I. And the path we're on right now isn't going to have that. Russia is getting their ass kicked on the battlefield. ANd it's their own fault.

---

The more we kick their ass, the more desperate they'll become and they'll resort to desperate measures. Russia has 10-30 megaton nukes.

Would you rather have a peace deal where parts of Ukraine are lost...or would you rather they resort to using these nukes on Ukraine?

---

Why should Russia get to steal parts of Ukraine to solve their economic/demographic and specifically the Oil/Gas rich areas of Ukraine and then get to settle with some of the theft once they got 28 of their 32 teeth knocked out? They're not going to use nuclear weapons. They'd have done so by now. Their only hope now is being a strip mine for China or quitting, admitting defeat, and more than likely in a decade or so, get back within the graces of the Western world. Neither of those solutions works out well for them if they use nukes.

---

I operate as if the worst outcome is possible because we're dealing with human lives.

I'm not going to assume, guess or hope Russia tucks their tail and runs.

---

And I operate from a perspective that a Russia without Putin could be a new ally of the West. The old guard is aging out. Putin is almost 70 and the Soviet Union fell 30 years ago. Putin chose power and despotism over opportunity over 15 years ago. That strategy enriched him and the oligarchs, but his latest overreach threatens all of that. Too many players with too much at stake to let nuclear war happen, including powerful constituencies within Russia. Unfortunately the Chinese are taking advantage of Russian desperation and will be hard to unravel when this is over.

---

It would be great to wrangle in Russia and transform them, as well as Ukraine. They're both corrupt as hell and many elite in the west do dirty deals with them. It needs to end.

When I see direct reports from Ukraine, it doesn't look good. Like this:

BREAKING: Ukraine warns that the risk of Russia using a tactical nuclear weapon is "very high"

— Samuel Ramani (@SamRamani2) September 29, 2022

From my military sources in Kyiv, the annexation referenda are responsible for this increased risk

Vladimir Putin can not be seen to lose territory in occupied areas, and Russia's efforts to deter Ukraine's liberation of these territories are not working

— Samuel Ramani (@SamRamani2) September 29, 2022

Could be Ukraine lying and signaling for more western $$ and intervention? The fog of war continues.

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

Our world is grey.

---

To put it mildly .......

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

I wonder if most people realize that twitter skews like 90% to the liberal-left positions.

"ruling elites" & "corrupt intelligence services" is not the kind of talk that usually happens on twitter.

It's Ukraine flags and pronouns in the bios and lots of talk about "upholding international norms" and "protecting our scared democracy from fascism"

---

I vote center-right about 90% of the time. I've actually voted with you in my life more than against you more than likely. Yet you're falling for the "Ukrainian Nazi" bit and "russia is just defending themselves against NATO aggression" bit. Mind-blowing that you can't understand how disinformation campaigns work, especially by Russia/China.

---

And you are literally calling the Russian Nazis.

Neither side in this conflict are actually Nazis. That party died out 75 years ago.

And yea I used to have your brand of "Bush-Cheney" politics back in 2004.

Difference is I grew up.

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

I wonder if most people realize that twitter skews like 90% to the liberal-left positions.

"ruling elites" & "corrupt intelligence services" is not the kind of talk that usually happens on twitter.

It's Ukraine flags and pronouns in the bios and lots of talk about "upholding international norms" and "protecting our scared democracy from fascism"

---

I vote center-right about 90% of the time. I've actually voted with you in my life more than against you more than likely. Yet you're falling for the "Ukrainian Nazi" bit and "russia is just defending themselves against NATO aggression" bit. Mind-blowing that you can't understand how disinformation campaigns work, especially by Russia/China.

---

And you are literally calling the Russian Nazis.

Neither side in this conflict are actually Nazis. That party died out 75 years ago.

And yea I used to have your brand of "Bush-Cheney" politics back in 2004.

Difference is I grew up.

---

I did t call the Russians Nazis, I called them fascists, which is as close to true as you can get in our modern economy. You are trying to use the '77 Merriam-Webster definition of fascist, but you don't seem to understand that entities that aren't at the "check every single box" of fascists are pretty damn fascist nonetheless. Hell, most of the BLM movement is fascist, and they don't realize it. The differences between outright fascism and outright communism are so minuscule it's scary. Suppose you've never read up on the horseshoe theory or similar ideas that are more correct than the polar theories.

---

I don't think the definition of fascist has changed and Putins Russia clearly lacks the main attribute of a facist state. Maybe people are misusing the term because they do not know the correct term. Putins Russia is actually closer to Tsar Nocolas than Hitler or Musilinni. Orthodoxy, autocracy, and nationality are what he wants, recreating the Soviet Union. He has no vision for a new Russia, he is not Charismatic and he us reactionary as opposed to revolutionary. I would say fascism does not fit.

RMF5630 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

I wonder if most people realize that twitter skews like 90% to the liberal-left positions.

"ruling elites" & "corrupt intelligence services" is not the kind of talk that usually happens on twitter.

It's Ukraine flags and pronouns in the bios and lots of talk about "upholding international norms" and "protecting our scared democracy from fascism"

---

I vote center-right about 90% of the time. I've actually voted with you in my life more than against you more than likely. Yet you're falling for the "Ukrainian Nazi" bit and "russia is just defending themselves against NATO aggression" bit. Mind-blowing that you can't understand how disinformation campaigns work, especially by Russia/China.

---

And you are literally calling the Russian Nazis.

Neither side in this conflict are actually Nazis. That party died out 75 years ago.

And yea I used to have your brand of "Bush-Cheney" politics back in 2004.

Difference is I grew up.

---

I did t call the Russians Nazis, I called them fascists, which is as close to true as you can get in our modern economy. You are trying to use the '77 Merriam-Webster definition of fascist, but you don't seem to understand that entities that aren't at the "check every single box" of fascists are pretty damn fascist nonetheless. Hell, most of the BLM movement is fascist, and they don't realize it. The differences between outright fascism and outright communism are so minuscule it's scary. Suppose you've never read up on the horseshoe theory or similar ideas that are more correct than the polar theories.

---

I don't think the definition of fascist has changed and Putins Russia clearly lacks the main attribute of a facist state. Maybe people are misusing the term because they do not know the correct term. Putins Russia is actually closer to Tsar Nocolas than Hitler or Musilinni. Orthodoxy, autocracy, and nationality are what he wants, recreating the Soviet Union. He has no vision for a new Russia, he is not Charismatic and he us reactionary as opposed to revolutionary. I would say fascism does not fit.

---

his view of a new Russia is the old Soviet Union. Nationalistic, authoritarian, anti-ethnic, controlled means of production by a tight circle of oligarchs/plutotarchs. Like I said, it doesn't check every box (revolutionary), but his thought and action processes are well in line with the end of the horseshoe, I.e. a smattering of the worst of fascist and communist ideals, because they end up in the same spot eventually.

RMF5630 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

I wonder if most people realize that twitter skews like 90% to the liberal-left positions.

"ruling elites" & "corrupt intelligence services" is not the kind of talk that usually happens on twitter.

It's Ukraine flags and pronouns in the bios and lots of talk about "upholding international norms" and "protecting our scared democracy from fascism"

---

I vote center-right about 90% of the time. I've actually voted with you in my life more than against you more than likely. Yet you're falling for the "Ukrainian Nazi" bit and "russia is just defending themselves against NATO aggression" bit. Mind-blowing that you can't understand how disinformation campaigns work, especially by Russia/China.

---

And you are literally calling the Russian Nazis.

Neither side in this conflict are actually Nazis. That party died out 75 years ago.

And yea I used to have your brand of "Bush-Cheney" politics back in 2004.

Difference is I grew up.

---

I did t call the Russians Nazis, I called them fascists, which is as close to true as you can get in our modern economy. You are trying to use the '77 Merriam-Webster definition of fascist, but you don't seem to understand that entities that aren't at the "check every single box" of fascists are pretty damn fascist nonetheless. Hell, most of the BLM movement is fascist, and they don't realize it. The differences between outright fascism and outright communism are so minuscule it's scary. Suppose you've never read up on the horseshoe theory or similar ideas that are more correct than the polar theories.

---

I don't think the definition of fascist has changed and Putins Russia clearly lacks the main attribute of a facist state. Maybe people are misusing the term because they do not know the correct term. Putins Russia is actually closer to Tsar Nocolas than Hitler or Musilinni. Orthodoxy, autocracy, and nationality are what he wants, recreating the Soviet Union. He has no vision for a new Russia, he is not Charismatic and he us reactionary as opposed to revolutionary. I would say fascism does not fit.

---

Exactly.

It's actually in line with Russian traditional state craft going back a long long time. (And of course that is not a compliment)

Putin and the people around him have built an autocratic kleptocracy.

It's plenty bad but it's not by the text book definition a fascist state.

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

I wonder if most people realize that twitter skews like 90% to the liberal-left positions.

"ruling elites" & "corrupt intelligence services" is not the kind of talk that usually happens on twitter.

It's Ukraine flags and pronouns in the bios and lots of talk about "upholding international norms" and "protecting our scared democracy from fascism"

---

I vote center-right about 90% of the time. I've actually voted with you in my life more than against you more than likely. Yet you're falling for the "Ukrainian Nazi" bit and "russia is just defending themselves against NATO aggression" bit. Mind-blowing that you can't understand how disinformation campaigns work, especially by Russia/China.

---

Nobody here is defending Russia, we just don't want to turn this into WW3 or another 'War on terror' situation where escalation kills more people than brokering peace.

---

Nor do I. And the path we're on right now isn't going to have that. Russia is getting their ass kicked on the battlefield. ANd it's their own fault.

---

The more we kick their ass, the more desperate they'll become and they'll resort to desperate measures. Russia has 10-30 megaton nukes.

Would you rather have a peace deal where parts of Ukraine are lost...or would you rather they resort to using these nukes on Ukraine?

---

Why should Russia get to steal parts of Ukraine to solve their economic/demographic and specifically the Oil/Gas rich areas of Ukraine and then get to settle with some of the theft once they got 28 of their 32 teeth knocked out? They're not going to use nuclear weapons. They'd have done so by now. Their only hope now is being a strip mine for China or quitting, admitting defeat, and more than likely in a decade or so, get back within the graces of the Western world. Neither of those solutions works out well for them if they use nukes.

---

I operate as if the worst outcome is possible because we're dealing with human lives.

I'm not going to assume, guess or hope Russia tucks their tail and runs.

---

And I operate from a perspective that a Russia without Putin could be a new ally of the West. The old guard is aging out. Putin is almost 70 and the Soviet Union fell 30 years ago. Putin chose power and despotism over opportunity over 15 years ago. That strategy enriched him and the oligarchs, but his latest overreach threatens all of that. Too many players with too much at stake to let nuclear war happen, including powerful constituencies within Russia. Unfortunately the Chinese are taking advantage of Russian desperation and will be hard to unravel when this is over.

---

Yep,

Putin's great legacy will be to have basically turned Russia into a vassal state of China in the end (wheat, potatoes, coal, gas, and timber supplier for Bejing)

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

You perceive the world as black and white.

Our world is grey.

---

Maybe yours is grey. Mine is in color.

---

i was going to say the same. Color requires discernment and nuance.

---

Most of the time....

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

I wonder if most people realize that twitter skews like 90% to the liberal-left positions.

"ruling elites" & "corrupt intelligence services" is not the kind of talk that usually happens on twitter.

It's Ukraine flags and pronouns in the bios and lots of talk about "upholding international norms" and "protecting our scared democracy from fascism"

---

I vote center-right about 90% of the time. I've actually voted with you in my life more than against you more than likely. Yet you're falling for the "Ukrainian Nazi" bit and "russia is just defending themselves against NATO aggression" bit. Mind-blowing that you can't understand how disinformation campaigns work, especially by Russia/China.

---

And you are literally calling the Russian Nazis.

Neither side in this conflict are actually Nazis. That party died out 75 years ago.

And yea I used to have your brand of "Bush-Cheney" politics back in 2004.

Difference is I grew up.

---

I did t call the Russians Nazis, I called them fascists, which is as close to true as you can get in our modern economy. You are trying to use the '77 Merriam-Webster definition of fascist, but you don't seem to understand that entities that aren't at the "check every single box" of fascists are pretty damn fascist nonetheless. Hell, most of the BLM movement is fascist, and they don't realize it. The differences between outright fascism and outright communism are so minuscule it's scary. Suppose you've never read up on the horseshoe theory or similar ideas that are more correct than the polar theories.

---

I don't think the definition of fascist has changed and Putins Russia clearly lacks the main attribute of a facist state. Maybe people are misusing the term because they do not know the correct term. Putins Russia is actually closer to Tsar Nocolas than Hitler or Musilinni. Orthodoxy, autocracynd nationality are what he wants, recreating the Soviet Union. He has no vision for a new Russia, he is not Charismatic and he us reactionary as opposed to revolutionary. I would say fascism does not fit.

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DUDE, WHY ARE YOU PARROTING RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA?!?!?!?

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How is that parroting propaganda. That is not a positive description of the political system. He is an autocatic dictator, that is not a good description.. You know fascism is not the only bad form of Govt. Putin is not facist, he is not revolutionary, he has no vision for the future, he is not aharismatic at all and he has a totally nationalistic agenda. They are not facist characteristics. So now comparing him closer to Tsarist is positive???

WHY IS FACISM CONSIDERED THE ONLY BAD FORM OF GOVT. NOT EVERY OPPRWSSIVE SYSTEM IS FACIST.

Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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trey3216 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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trey3216 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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ATL Bear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

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A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

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So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

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Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

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you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

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You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

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Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

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You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

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I wonder if most people realize that twitter skews like 90% to the liberal-left positions.

"ruling elites" & "corrupt intelligence services" is not the kind of talk that usually happens on twitter.

It's Ukraine flags and pronouns in the bios and lots of talk about "upholding international norms" and "protecting our scared democracy from fascism"

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I vote center-right about 90% of the time. I've actually voted with you in my life more than against you more than likely. Yet you're falling for the "Ukrainian Nazi" bit and "russia is just defending themselves against NATO aggression" bit. Mind-blowing that you can't understand how disinformation campaigns work, especially by Russia/China.

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Nobody here is defending Russia, we just don't want to turn this into WW3 or another 'War on terror' situation where escalation kills more people than brokering peace.

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Nor do I. And the path we're on right now isn't going to have that. Russia is getting their ass kicked on the battlefield. ANd it's their own fault.

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The more we kick their ass, the more desperate they'll become and they'll resort to desperate measures. Russia has 10-30 megaton nukes.

Would you rather have a peace deal where parts of Ukraine are lost...or would you rather they resort to using these nukes on Ukraine?

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Why should Russia get to steal parts of Ukraine to solve their economic/demographic and specifically the Oil/Gas rich areas of Ukraine and then get to settle with some of the theft once they got 28 of their 32 teeth knocked out? They're not going to use nuclear weapons. They'd have done so by now. Their only hope now is being a strip mine for China or quitting, admitting defeat, and more than likely in a decade or so, get back within the graces of the Western world. Neither of those solutions works out well for them if they use nukes.

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I operate as if the worst outcome is possible because we're dealing with human lives.

I'm not going to assume, guess or hope Russia tucks their tail and runs.

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And I operate from a perspective that a Russia without Putin could be a new ally of the West. The old guard is aging out. Putin is almost 70 and the Soviet Union fell 30 years ago. Putin chose power and despotism over opportunity over 15 years ago. That strategy enriched him and the oligarchs, but his latest overreach threatens all of that. Too many players with too much at stake to let nuclear war happen, including powerful constituencies within Russia. Unfortunately the Chinese are taking advantage of Russian desperation and will be hard to unravel when this is over.

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Yep,

Putin's great legacy will be to have basically turned Russia into a vassal state of China in the end (wheat, potatoes, coal, gas, and timber supplier for Bejing)

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You hot the nail on the head. This move is counterproductive.

Redbrickbear said:

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RMF5630 said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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ATL Bear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Canada2017 said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

What do you think happened with the Nordstream pipelines?

A: Russia sabotaged them
B: The USA sabotaged them
C. Some other nation or group sabotaged them
D. Miraculously it wasn't sabotage

Russia could just quit delivering gas any time they wanted without needing to blow anything up. Likewise, the EU can just quit buying gas if they decided it's better to freeze. So what happened here?

The chances of the EU agreeing a peace agreement very unlikely now that there is no gas.

---

A. Russia

Like burning one's own boats, it's a message of resolve from Putin to his people and particularly his military. It's also an implicit threat to Europe and other pipelines in the vicinity.

---

So Russia destroyed their own $20 billion dollar pipeline which would make trillions over time, expand their global sphere of influence...as a way to attack the "free world"? How dare they blow up the pipeline that USA/NATO/EU has refused to open or use and has threatened to "shut down" as a threat to Russia.

It's more likely the US or another country shut this off to cut Russia's future money supply.

Gazprom already halted supply of Nordstrom 1 at the beginning of the month. Nordstream 2 was never activated in the first place or in use when it was blown up. This forces an energy problem for Europe because now it's not an option.

Is every narrative "Russia does bad things. Bad thing happened, therefore Russia did it"?

---

Russia had zero reason to destroy pipelines they could simply shut off whenever they wished.

Biden had made threats against the pipelines just months ago .

So exactly who benefits with western Europe facing a shortage of national gas and a long cold winter coming up ?

Follow the $$$$.

---

you mean the same Europe lining up contracts with UAE, Qatar, Ukraine, Norway and a dozen other countries in addition to the US? The same Europe that had gas contracts with those countries to more than supply their winter needs now with the new contracts? Follow the threats, and the money. The threat is actually to the pipelines that run through Ukraine. That's Russia's last conventional play.

---

You don't seem to understand that America is a bad guy here and Putin and Russia are as much victims as anyone. They don't have evil economic interests like the US and West. Russia doesn't have ruling elites controlling their economy or corrupt intelligence and government agencies like the big bad US…. Did I get that right?

---

Both have ruling elites controlling their economy with corrupt intelligence and government agencies.

---

You need to stay off the Twitters for a bit.

---

I wonder if most people realize that twitter skews like 90% to the liberal-left positions.

"ruling elites" & "corrupt intelligence services" is not the kind of talk that usually happens on twitter.

It's Ukraine flags and pronouns in the bios and lots of talk about "upholding international norms" and "protecting our scared democracy from fascism"

---

I vote center-right about 90% of the time. I've actually voted with you in my life more than against you more than likely. Yet you're falling for the "Ukrainian Nazi" bit and "russia is just defending themselves against NATO aggression" bit. Mind-blowing that you can't understand how disinformation campaigns work, especially by Russia/China.

---

And you are literally calling the Russian Nazis.

Neither side in this conflict are actually Nazis. That party died out 75 years ago.

And yea I used to have your brand of "Bush-Cheney" politics back in 2004.

Difference is I grew up.

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I did t call the Russians Nazis, I called them fascists, which is as close to true as you can get in our modern economy. You are trying to use the '77 Merriam-Webster definition of fascist, but you don't seem to understand that entities that aren't at the "check every single box" of fascists are pretty damn fascist nonetheless. Hell, most of the BLM movement is fascist, and they don't realize it. The differences between outright fascism and outright communism are so minuscule it's scary. Suppose you've never read up on the horseshoe theory or similar ideas that are more correct than the polar theories.

---

I don't think the definition of fascist has changed and Putins Russia clearly lacks the main attribute of a facist state. Maybe people are misusing the term because they do not know the correct term. Putins Russia is actually closer to Tsar Nocolas than Hitler or Musilinni. Orthodoxy, autocracy, and nationality are what he wants, recreating the Soviet Union. He has no vision for a new Russia, he is not Charismatic and he us reactionary as opposed to revolutionary. I would say fascism does not fit.

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Exactly.

It's actually in line with Russian traditional state craft going back a long long time. (And of course that is not a compliment)

Putin and the people around him have built an autocratic kleptocracy.

It's plenty bad but it's not by the text book definition a fascist state.

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Thank you. For some reason Liberals/Democrats believe the only bad form of Govt is facism so they call every thug or aggressive move facist.

Maybe his nationalism fits or the Rusdian situation after the break up of the Soviet Union is similar to the Weimer Republic, but Putin is a dictator play and simple.

cowboycwr said:

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Doc Holliday said:

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BREAKING: First openly trans Army officer charged in plot to give U.S. military medical info to Russians to help in war against Ukraine - https://t.co/apHT1vYazs pic.twitter.com/AmJ6jMmEfr

— Breaking911 (@Breaking911) September 29, 2022

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So what does the fact he is trans have to do with any of it?

And maybe I am missing something or haven't read enough about this yet but what could an army doctor and his wife have that would help in the war in any way?

I mean getting the medical records/history of every top US General doesn't help Russia stop the Ukrainians from blowing up their tanks.

And side question... this guy is married.... does that mean his wife is secretly a lesbian? I can't keep track of how this trans and pronoun thing works....

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vulnerability to recruitment. Russian intelligence recruitment targeting focuses on all of the "oppressed" categories. Always has. Also focuses on family connections. A agency officer with parents or grandparents who were immigrants from Russia, and/or had family in any of the SSRs, would never, ever get assigned to any of the Russian satellite states. A dude in a dress will attract attention from hostile intelligence services like feces attracts flies.