Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

*taps sign*

"whataboutism is an extremely easy debate tactic."

---

My point isn't about Russian support per se, but what it implies (or doesn't imply) about Ukraine. Some of you would have us believe that anti-Russian sentiment is the only "real" feeling among Ukrainians while anything pro-Russian is necessarily fake. That is far from the truth.

---

I don't see a recall election, coups or attempts on the President's life! This guy is out there, he is all over. How many demonstrations are you seeing that the Russians are right?

---

Well, they elected Zelensky to make peace with the Russians and give autonomy to the Donbas. I guess it's a little late to recall him now.

---

I am not sure I agree they elected him for that reason. That is the first that I have heard that Zelensky ran on a platform to give autonomy to the Donbas. Looks like he did submit something in 2022 and the Ukrainian people said no. In addition, everything I can see is the terms the Russians would accept were ridiculously in their favor.

As for peace with the Russians, hard to make peace when the take Crimea and invade...

---

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/20/ukraines-leader-stood-on-platform-of-peace-but-finds-himself-on-brink-war

[When Volodymyr Zelenskiy sought to become Ukraine's president he stood on a platform of peace. Zelenskiy promised to sit down with Vladimir Putin and to reach a deal with Russia. He would end the unpopular war in the east and concentrate on important domestic reforms. ]

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/zelenskyys-peace

[On the campaign trail, presidential candidate Volodymyr Zelenskyy said multiple times that he would strike a peace deal during his presidency. He used as an electoral weapon people`s desire to have not just a stable life but also a peaceful one. Even though the war in the East, confined as it is to one region, does not interfere directly with the daily activities of many Ukrainians, ending the bloodshed continues to be a widely shared national goal...For Zelenskyy, achieving a peaceful end to the conflict in the Donbas is not only a way to leave his mark in the history books, it would also be a significant milestone in his political life. Even though Zelenskyy was elected primarily as the person voters thought most likely to improve their economic welfare, his ability to bring about peace will be the single most important criterion on which he is judged, ]

---

Yes, strike a peace deal. Not give half the Nation to them! Come on. You and Sam HAVE to be joking defending this.

---

You'd think...

---

I was half hoping you said "You think" and I was just being gullible. That is a better option than people thinking Putin was wronged after taking Crimea and rolling 300 tanks over the border!

---

You seem very offended that after 10 years of bloody war waged by the government in Kyiv against the locals of Donbas that the Russian army rolled over the border and decided to intervene on the side of the separatists.

I wish people like you cared as much about our borders and the invasion of foreigners as you care about the borders of a corrput ex-soviet state thousands of miles away.

But if it makes you mad that the ethnic russians of east Ukraine are trying to break off and join russia...you are welcome to get on a plane and head over there to fight.

They are very open to taking Western volunteers who want to fight.

Go have fun...but leave the American people and our tax dollars out of it.

---

That is not fair on our borders, this is not a conversation on our borders. Open a thread and I will be glad to join.

You keep acting as if a 60 year old has to pick up a rifle and go to Ukraine to agree they should defend thier border. they don't want me or US soldiers. My jumping, rucking and deploying days are over, I did my 5 years (ask my knees!).

We are not sending troops to fight Russia. We are providing intel and weapons, as asked. This isn't the US created war. Russia doesn't invade this doesn't happen, even after they took Crimea. This is on Putin, 100%.

---

Yet....keep letting the DC class escalate this war and we might find out it does not stop in Bakhmut

I remember a certain American President telling us that "We are not about to send American boys 9 or 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves"

How did that work out?

---

Nothing has escalated. We are still supplying arms and intel with our NATO allies, just like at the beginning. This is not a US unilateral effort that is escalating.

Why do you keep making it something it isn't? Sooner Putin realizes that HIS actions are causing self-fulfilling prophecies (NATO membership increasing) maybe this will stop.

IF the US sends troops outside of NATO, then I will agree it is escalating. But as of right now, it is not.

---

Sending fighter jets and removing any limitations to funding the war in the new debt limit deal is in fact escalation.

And you know it…and you just happen to like it

Also the US leadership sabotaging European calls for peace and negotiation is just idiotic and monstrous

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

*taps sign*

"whataboutism is an extremely easy debate tactic."

---

My point isn't about Russian support per se, but what it implies (or doesn't imply) about Ukraine. Some of you would have us believe that anti-Russian sentiment is the only "real" feeling among Ukrainians while anything pro-Russian is necessarily fake. That is far from the truth.

---

I don't see a recall election, coups or attempts on the President's life! This guy is out there, he is all over. How many demonstrations are you seeing that the Russians are right?

---

Well, they elected Zelensky to make peace with the Russians and give autonomy to the Donbas. I guess it's a little late to recall him now.

---

I am not sure I agree they elected him for that reason. That is the first that I have heard that Zelensky ran on a platform to give autonomy to the Donbas. Looks like he did submit something in 2022 and the Ukrainian people said no. In addition, everything I can see is the terms the Russians would accept were ridiculously in their favor.

As for peace with the Russians, hard to make peace when the take Crimea and invade...

---

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/20/ukraines-leader-stood-on-platform-of-peace-but-finds-himself-on-brink-war

[When Volodymyr Zelenskiy sought to become Ukraine's president he stood on a platform of peace. Zelenskiy promised to sit down with Vladimir Putin and to reach a deal with Russia. He would end the unpopular war in the east and concentrate on important domestic reforms. ]

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/zelenskyys-peace

[On the campaign trail, presidential candidate Volodymyr Zelenskyy said multiple times that he would strike a peace deal during his presidency. He used as an electoral weapon people`s desire to have not just a stable life but also a peaceful one. Even though the war in the East, confined as it is to one region, does not interfere directly with the daily activities of many Ukrainians, ending the bloodshed continues to be a widely shared national goal...For Zelenskyy, achieving a peaceful end to the conflict in the Donbas is not only a way to leave his mark in the history books, it would also be a significant milestone in his political life. Even though Zelenskyy was elected primarily as the person voters thought most likely to improve their economic welfare, his ability to bring about peace will be the single most important criterion on which he is judged, ]

---

Yes, strike a peace deal. Not give half the Nation to them! Come on. You and Sam HAVE to be joking defending this.

---

You'd think...

---

I was half hoping you said "You think" and I was just being gullible. That is a better option than people thinking Putin was wronged after taking Crimea and rolling 300 tanks over the border!

---

You seem very offended that after 10 years of bloody war waged by the government in Kyiv against the locals of Donbas that the Russian army rolled over the border and decided to intervene on the side of the separatists.

I wish people like you cared as much about our borders and the invasion of foreigners as you care about the borders of a corrput ex-soviet state thousands of miles away.

But if it makes you mad that the ethnic russians of east Ukraine are trying to break off and join russia...you are welcome to get on a plane and head over there to fight.

They are very open to taking Western volunteers who want to fight.

Go have fun...but leave the American people and our tax dollars out of it.

---

That is not fair on our borders, this is not a conversation on our borders. Open a thread and I will be glad to join.

You keep acting as if a 60 year old has to pick up a rifle and go to Ukraine to agree they should defend thier border. they don't want me or US soldiers. My jumping, rucking and deploying days are over, I did my 5 years (ask my knees!).

We are not sending troops to fight Russia. We are providing intel and weapons, as asked. This isn't the US created war. Russia doesn't invade this doesn't happen, even after they took Crimea. This is on Putin, 100%.

---

Yet....keep letting the DC class escalate this war and we might find out it does not stop in Bakhmut

I remember a certain American President telling us that "We are not about to send American boys 9 or 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves"

How did that work out?

---

Nothing has escalated. We are still supplying arms and intel with our NATO allies, just like at the beginning. This is not a US unilateral effort that is escalating.

Why do you keep making it something it isn't? Sooner Putin realizes that HIS actions are causing self-fulfilling prophecies (NATO membership increasing) maybe this will stop.

IF the US sends troops outside of NATO, then I will agree it is escalating. But as of right now, it is not.

---

Sending fighter jets and removing any limitations to funding the war in the new debt limit deal is in fact escalation.

And you know it…and you just happen to like it

Also the US leadership sabotaging European calls for peace and negotiation is just idiotic and monstrous

---

Apparently you and Sam have trouble actually reading. We are not sending F-16's.

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

*taps sign*

"whataboutism is an extremely easy debate tactic."

---

My point isn't about Russian support per se, but what it implies (or doesn't imply) about Ukraine. Some of you would have us believe that anti-Russian sentiment is the only "real" feeling among Ukrainians while anything pro-Russian is necessarily fake. That is far from the truth.

---

I don't see a recall election, coups or attempts on the President's life! This guy is out there, he is all over. How many demonstrations are you seeing that the Russians are right?

---

Well, they elected Zelensky to make peace with the Russians and give autonomy to the Donbas. I guess it's a little late to recall him now.

---

I am not sure I agree they elected him for that reason. That is the first that I have heard that Zelensky ran on a platform to give autonomy to the Donbas. Looks like he did submit something in 2022 and the Ukrainian people said no. In addition, everything I can see is the terms the Russians would accept were ridiculously in their favor.

As for peace with the Russians, hard to make peace when the take Crimea and invade...

---

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/20/ukraines-leader-stood-on-platform-of-peace-but-finds-himself-on-brink-war

[When Volodymyr Zelenskiy sought to become Ukraine's president he stood on a platform of peace. Zelenskiy promised to sit down with Vladimir Putin and to reach a deal with Russia. He would end the unpopular war in the east and concentrate on important domestic reforms. ]

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/zelenskyys-peace

[On the campaign trail, presidential candidate Volodymyr Zelenskyy said multiple times that he would strike a peace deal during his presidency. He used as an electoral weapon people`s desire to have not just a stable life but also a peaceful one. Even though the war in the East, confined as it is to one region, does not interfere directly with the daily activities of many Ukrainians, ending the bloodshed continues to be a widely shared national goal...For Zelenskyy, achieving a peaceful end to the conflict in the Donbas is not only a way to leave his mark in the history books, it would also be a significant milestone in his political life. Even though Zelenskyy was elected primarily as the person voters thought most likely to improve their economic welfare, his ability to bring about peace will be the single most important criterion on which he is judged, ]

---

Yes, strike a peace deal. Not give half the Nation to them! Come on. You and Sam HAVE to be joking defending this.

---

You'd think...

---

I was half hoping you said "You think" and I was just being gullible. That is a better option than people thinking Putin was wronged after taking Crimea and rolling 300 tanks over the border!

---

You seem very offended that after 10 years of bloody war waged by the government in Kyiv against the locals of Donbas that the Russian army rolled over the border and decided to intervene on the side of the separatists.

I wish people like you cared as much about our borders and the invasion of foreigners as you care about the borders of a corrput ex-soviet state thousands of miles away.

But if it makes you mad that the ethnic russians of east Ukraine are trying to break off and join russia...you are welcome to get on a plane and head over there to fight.

They are very open to taking Western volunteers who want to fight.

Go have fun...but leave the American people and our tax dollars out of it.

---

That is not fair on our borders, this is not a conversation on our borders. Open a thread and I will be glad to join.

You keep acting as if a 60 year old has to pick up a rifle and go to Ukraine to agree they should defend thier border. they don't want me or US soldiers. My jumping, rucking and deploying days are over, I did my 5 years (ask my knees!).

We are not sending troops to fight Russia. We are providing intel and weapons, as asked. This isn't the US created war. Russia doesn't invade this doesn't happen, even after they took Crimea. This is on Putin, 100%.

---

Yet....keep letting the DC class escalate this war and we might find out it does not stop in Bakhmut

I remember a certain American President telling us that "We are not about to send American boys 9 or 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves"

How did that work out?

---

Nothing has escalated. We are still supplying arms and intel with our NATO allies, just like at the beginning. This is not a US unilateral effort that is escalating.

Why do you keep making it something it isn't? Sooner Putin realizes that HIS actions are causing self-fulfilling prophecies (NATO membership increasing) maybe this will stop.

IF the US sends troops outside of NATO, then I will agree it is escalating. But as of right now, it is not.

---

Sending fighter jets and removing any limitations to funding the war in the new debt limit deal is in fact escalation.

And you know it…and you just happen to like it

Also the US leadership sabotaging European calls for peace and negotiation is just idiotic and monstrous

---

Apparently you and Sam have trouble actually reading. We are not sending F-16's.

---

[The US says it will allow its Western allies to supply Ukraine with advanced fighter jets, including American-made F-16s, in a major boost for Kyiv.

US troops will also train Kyiv's pilots to use the jets, Mr Sullivan said.]

Take it up with writer of the article Trey

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

*taps sign*

"whataboutism is an extremely easy debate tactic."

---

My point isn't about Russian support per se, but what it implies (or doesn't imply) about Ukraine. Some of you would have us believe that anti-Russian sentiment is the only "real" feeling among Ukrainians while anything pro-Russian is necessarily fake. That is far from the truth.

---

I don't see a recall election, coups or attempts on the President's life! This guy is out there, he is all over. How many demonstrations are you seeing that the Russians are right?

---

Well, they elected Zelensky to make peace with the Russians and give autonomy to the Donbas. I guess it's a little late to recall him now.

---

I am not sure I agree they elected him for that reason. That is the first that I have heard that Zelensky ran on a platform to give autonomy to the Donbas. Looks like he did submit something in 2022 and the Ukrainian people said no. In addition, everything I can see is the terms the Russians would accept were ridiculously in their favor.

As for peace with the Russians, hard to make peace when the take Crimea and invade...

---

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/20/ukraines-leader-stood-on-platform-of-peace-but-finds-himself-on-brink-war

[When Volodymyr Zelenskiy sought to become Ukraine's president he stood on a platform of peace. Zelenskiy promised to sit down with Vladimir Putin and to reach a deal with Russia. He would end the unpopular war in the east and concentrate on important domestic reforms. ]

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/zelenskyys-peace

[On the campaign trail, presidential candidate Volodymyr Zelenskyy said multiple times that he would strike a peace deal during his presidency. He used as an electoral weapon people`s desire to have not just a stable life but also a peaceful one. Even though the war in the East, confined as it is to one region, does not interfere directly with the daily activities of many Ukrainians, ending the bloodshed continues to be a widely shared national goal...For Zelenskyy, achieving a peaceful end to the conflict in the Donbas is not only a way to leave his mark in the history books, it would also be a significant milestone in his political life. Even though Zelenskyy was elected primarily as the person voters thought most likely to improve their economic welfare, his ability to bring about peace will be the single most important criterion on which he is judged, ]

---

Yes, strike a peace deal. Not give half the Nation to them! Come on. You and Sam HAVE to be joking defending this.

---

You'd think...

---

I was half hoping you said "You think" and I was just being gullible. That is a better option than people thinking Putin was wronged after taking Crimea and rolling 300 tanks over the border!

---

You seem very offended that after 10 years of bloody war waged by the government in Kyiv against the locals of Donbas that the Russian army rolled over the border and decided to intervene on the side of the separatists.

I wish people like you cared as much about our borders and the invasion of foreigners as you care about the borders of a corrput ex-soviet state thousands of miles away.

But if it makes you mad that the ethnic russians of east Ukraine are trying to break off and join russia...you are welcome to get on a plane and head over there to fight.

They are very open to taking Western volunteers who want to fight.

Go have fun...but leave the American people and our tax dollars out of it.

---

That is not fair on our borders, this is not a conversation on our borders. Open a thread and I will be glad to join.

You keep acting as if a 60 year old has to pick up a rifle and go to Ukraine to agree they should defend thier border. they don't want me or US soldiers. My jumping, rucking and deploying days are over, I did my 5 years (ask my knees!).

We are not sending troops to fight Russia. We are providing intel and weapons, as asked. This isn't the US created war. Russia doesn't invade this doesn't happen, even after they took Crimea. This is on Putin, 100%.

---

Yet....keep letting the DC class escalate this war and we might find out it does not stop in Bakhmut

I remember a certain American President telling us that "We are not about to send American boys 9 or 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves"

How did that work out?

---

Nothing has escalated. We are still supplying arms and intel with our NATO allies, just like at the beginning. This is not a US unilateral effort that is escalating.

Why do you keep making it something it isn't? Sooner Putin realizes that HIS actions are causing self-fulfilling prophecies (NATO membership increasing) maybe this will stop.

IF the US sends troops outside of NATO, then I will agree it is escalating. But as of right now, it is not.

---

Sending fighter jets and removing any limitations to funding the war in the new debt limit deal is in fact escalation.

And you know it%85and you just happen to like it

Also the US leadership sabotaging European calls for peace and negotiation is just idiotic and monstrous

---

Apparently you and Sam have trouble actually reading. We are not sending F-16's.

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

*taps sign*

"whataboutism is an extremely easy debate tactic."

---

My point isn't about Russian support per se, but what it implies (or doesn't imply) about Ukraine. Some of you would have us believe that anti-Russian sentiment is the only "real" feeling among Ukrainians while anything pro-Russian is necessarily fake. That is far from the truth.

---

I don't see a recall election, coups or attempts on the President's life! This guy is out there, he is all over. How many demonstrations are you seeing that the Russians are right?

---

Well, they elected Zelensky to make peace with the Russians and give autonomy to the Donbas. I guess it's a little late to recall him now.

---

I am not sure I agree they elected him for that reason. That is the first that I have heard that Zelensky ran on a platform to give autonomy to the Donbas. Looks like he did submit something in 2022 and the Ukrainian people said no. In addition, everything I can see is the terms the Russians would accept were ridiculously in their favor.

As for peace with the Russians, hard to make peace when the take Crimea and invade...

---

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/20/ukraines-leader-stood-on-platform-of-peace-but-finds-himself-on-brink-war

[When Volodymyr Zelenskiy sought to become Ukraine's president he stood on a platform of peace. Zelenskiy promised to sit down with Vladimir Putin and to reach a deal with Russia. He would end the unpopular war in the east and concentrate on important domestic reforms. ]

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/zelenskyys-peace

[On the campaign trail, presidential candidate Volodymyr Zelenskyy said multiple times that he would strike a peace deal during his presidency. He used as an electoral weapon people`s desire to have not just a stable life but also a peaceful one. Even though the war in the East, confined as it is to one region, does not interfere directly with the daily activities of many Ukrainians, ending the bloodshed continues to be a widely shared national goal...For Zelenskyy, achieving a peaceful end to the conflict in the Donbas is not only a way to leave his mark in the history books, it would also be a significant milestone in his political life. Even though Zelenskyy was elected primarily as the person voters thought most likely to improve their economic welfare, his ability to bring about peace will be the single most important criterion on which he is judged, ]

---

Yes, strike a peace deal. Not give half the Nation to them! Come on. You and Sam HAVE to be joking defending this.

---

You'd think...

---

I was half hoping you said "You think" and I was just being gullible. That is a better option than people thinking Putin was wronged after taking Crimea and rolling 300 tanks over the border!

---

You seem very offended that after 10 years of bloody war waged by the government in Kyiv against the locals of Donbas that the Russian army rolled over the border and decided to intervene on the side of the separatists.

I wish people like you cared as much about our borders and the invasion of foreigners as you care about the borders of a corrput ex-soviet state thousands of miles away.

But if it makes you mad that the ethnic russians of east Ukraine are trying to break off and join russia...you are welcome to get on a plane and head over there to fight.

They are very open to taking Western volunteers who want to fight.

Go have fun...but leave the American people and our tax dollars out of it.

---

That is not fair on our borders, this is not a conversation on our borders. Open a thread and I will be glad to join.

You keep acting as if a 60 year old has to pick up a rifle and go to Ukraine to agree they should defend thier border. they don't want me or US soldiers. My jumping, rucking and deploying days are over, I did my 5 years (ask my knees!).

We are not sending troops to fight Russia. We are providing intel and weapons, as asked. This isn't the US created war. Russia doesn't invade this doesn't happen, even after they took Crimea. This is on Putin, 100%.

---

Yet....keep letting the DC class escalate this war and we might find out it does not stop in Bakhmut

I remember a certain American President telling us that "We are not about to send American boys 9 or 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves"

How did that work out?

---

Nothing has escalated. We are still supplying arms and intel with our NATO allies, just like at the beginning. This is not a US unilateral effort that is escalating.

Why do you keep making it something it isn't? Sooner Putin realizes that HIS actions are causing self-fulfilling prophecies (NATO membership increasing) maybe this will stop.

IF the US sends troops outside of NATO, then I will agree it is escalating. But as of right now, it is not.

---

Sending fighter jets and removing any limitations to funding the war in the new debt limit deal is in fact escalation.

And you know it…and you just happen to like it

Also the US leadership sabotaging European calls for peace and negotiation is just idiotic and monstrous

---

Apparently you and Sam have trouble actually reading. We are not sending F-16's.

---

[The US says it will allow its Western allies to supply Ukraine with advanced fighter jets, including American-made F-16s, in a major boost for Kyiv.

US troops will also train Kyiv's pilots to use the jets, Mr Sullivan said.]

Take it up with writer of the article Trey

---

the United States is not sending F-16's, which is what you said several posts before that. The United States is not sending troops to fight in Ukraine. The vast majority of "money" spent by the United States on this operation is humanitarian aide. The big numbers you keep seeing on defense items sent to Ukraine is on a lend lease basis, and on drawdowns of equipment that was bought decades ago. It's cheaper to let it be used for its original purpose than to sit in storage and be maintained to our military specifications.

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

[American military aid to Ukraine is supposed to be largely contingent on Ukraine not using American equipment to directly attack Russian territory. But the Biden administration and the uniparty writ large seem uninterested in investigating and enforcing such provisions.

For Ukraine's backers, it's don't ask, don't tell.

Which is why the Pentagon has announced yet another $300 million in military aid for Ukraine, which includes ammunition for missile defense systems, such as Patriot missiles and AIM-7 missiles. Other artillery provided by the latest round of aid from the Pentagon includes Stingers, anti-tank weapons, and tank rounds. The package also includes other military equipment and "munitions for Unmanned Aerial Systems."
Drones have become an important part of Ukraine's efforts to limit Russia's capacity to continue the invasion. Earlier this week, two Ukrainian drones were used to strike Russian oil refineries. In the past, Ukraine has used drones to strike targets inside Russia's borders, such as airfields, other military installations, and vital industrial centers. What remains unknown in these attacks, however, is if the munitions used for such drone attacks came from the United States, another Western nation, or from Ukraine's own arsenal.
"Don't ask, don't tell" is working in the other direction, albeit less so. Ukrainians don't know if the military aid coming in will be ready or rubbishand they dare not ask, given U.S. aid is propping up not only their military but the entire Ukrainian government.]

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dont-ask-dont-tell-in-ukraine/

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

You seem very offended that after 10 years of bloody war waged by the government in Kyiv against the locals of Donbas that the Russian army rolled over the border and decided to intervene on the side of the separatists.

I wish people like you cared as much about our borders and the invasion of foreigners as you care about the borders of a corrput ex-soviet state thousands of miles away.

But if it makes you mad that the ethnic russians of east Ukraine are trying to break off and join russia...you are welcome to get on a plane and head over there to fight.

They are very open to taking Western volunteers who want to fight.

Go have fun...but leave the American people and our tax dollars out of it.

---

That is not fair on our borders, this is not a conversation on our borders. Open a thread and I will be glad to join.

You keep acting as if a 60 year old has to pick up a rifle and go to Ukraine to agree they should defend thier border. they don't want me or US soldiers. My jumping, rucking and deploying days are over, I did my 5 years (ask my knees!).

We are not sending troops to fight Russia. We are providing intel and weapons, as asked. This isn't the US created war. Russia doesn't invade this doesn't happen, even after they took Crimea. This is on Putin, 100%.

---

Yet....keep letting the DC class escalate this war and we might find out it does not stop in Bakhmut

I remember a certain American President telling us that "We are not about to send American boys 9 or 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves"

How did that work out?

---

Nothing has escalated. We are still supplying arms and intel with our NATO allies, just like at the beginning. This is not a US unilateral effort that is escalating.

Why do you keep making it something it isn't? Sooner Putin realizes that HIS actions are causing self-fulfilling prophecies (NATO membership increasing) maybe this will stop.

IF the US sends troops outside of NATO, then I will agree it is escalating. But as of right now, it is not.

---

Sending fighter jets and removing any limitations to funding the war in the new debt limit deal is in fact escalation.

And you know it…and you just happen to like it

Also the US leadership sabotaging European calls for peace and negotiation is just idiotic and monstrous

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

*taps sign*

"whataboutism is an extremely easy debate tactic."

---

My point isn't about Russian support per se, but what it implies (or doesn't imply) about Ukraine. Some of you would have us believe that anti-Russian sentiment is the only "real" feeling among Ukrainians while anything pro-Russian is necessarily fake. That is far from the truth.

---

I don't see a recall election, coups or attempts on the President's life! This guy is out there, he is all over. How many demonstrations are you seeing that the Russians are right?

---

Well, they elected Zelensky to make peace with the Russians and give autonomy to the Donbas. I guess it's a little late to recall him now.

---

I am not sure I agree they elected him for that reason. That is the first that I have heard that Zelensky ran on a platform to give autonomy to the Donbas. Looks like he did submit something in 2022 and the Ukrainian people said no. In addition, everything I can see is the terms the Russians would accept were ridiculously in their favor.

As for peace with the Russians, hard to make peace when the take Crimea and invade...

---

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/20/ukraines-leader-stood-on-platform-of-peace-but-finds-himself-on-brink-war

[When Volodymyr Zelenskiy sought to become Ukraine's president he stood on a platform of peace. Zelenskiy promised to sit down with Vladimir Putin and to reach a deal with Russia. He would end the unpopular war in the east and concentrate on important domestic reforms. ]

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/zelenskyys-peace

[On the campaign trail, presidential candidate Volodymyr Zelenskyy said multiple times that he would strike a peace deal during his presidency. He used as an electoral weapon people`s desire to have not just a stable life but also a peaceful one. Even though the war in the East, confined as it is to one region, does not interfere directly with the daily activities of many Ukrainians, ending the bloodshed continues to be a widely shared national goal...For Zelenskyy, achieving a peaceful end to the conflict in the Donbas is not only a way to leave his mark in the history books, it would also be a significant milestone in his political life. Even though Zelenskyy was elected primarily as the person voters thought most likely to improve their economic welfare, his ability to bring about peace will be the single most important criterion on which he is judged, ]

---

Yes, strike a peace deal. Not give half the Nation to them! Come on. You and Sam HAVE to be joking defending this.

---

You'd think...

---

I was half hoping you said "You think" and I was just being gullible. That is a better option than people thinking Putin was wronged after taking Crimea and rolling 300 tanks over the border!

---

You seem very offended that after 10 years of bloody war waged by the government in Kyiv against the locals of Donbas that the Russian army rolled over the border and decided to intervene on the side of the separatists.

I wish people like you cared as much about our borders and the invasion of foreigners as you care about the borders of a corrput ex-soviet state thousands of miles away.

But if it makes you mad that the ethnic russians of east Ukraine are trying to break off and join russia...you are welcome to get on a plane and head over there to fight.

They are very open to taking Western volunteers who want to fight.

Go have fun...but leave the American people and our tax dollars out of it.

---

That is not fair on our borders, this is not a conversation on our borders. Open a thread and I will be glad to join.

You keep acting as if a 60 year old has to pick up a rifle and go to Ukraine to agree they should defend thier border. they don't want me or US soldiers. My jumping, rucking and deploying days are over, I did my 5 years (ask my knees!).

We are not sending troops to fight Russia. We are providing intel and weapons, as asked. This isn't the US created war. Russia doesn't invade this doesn't happen, even after they took Crimea. This is on Putin, 100%.

---

Yet....keep letting the DC class escalate this war and we might find out it does not stop in Bakhmut

I remember a certain American President telling us that "We are not about to send American boys 9 or 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves"

How did that work out?

---

Nothing has escalated. We are still supplying arms and intel with our NATO allies, just like at the beginning. This is not a US unilateral effort that is escalating.

Why do you keep making it something it isn't? Sooner Putin realizes that HIS actions are causing self-fulfilling prophecies (NATO membership increasing) maybe this will stop.

IF the US sends troops outside of NATO, then I will agree it is escalating. But as of right now, it is not.

---

Sending fighter jets and removing any limitations to funding the war in the new debt limit deal is in fact escalation.

And you know it…and you just happen to like it

Also the US leadership sabotaging European calls for peace and negotiation is just idiotic and monstrous

---

Apparently you and Sam have trouble actually reading. We are not sending F-16's.

---

[The US says it will allow its Western allies to supply Ukraine with advanced fighter jets, including American-made F-16s, in a major boost for Kyiv.

US troops will also train Kyiv's pilots to use the jets, Mr Sullivan said.]

Take it up with writer of the article Trey

---

the United States is not sending F-16's, which is what you said several posts before that. The United States is not sending troops to fight in Ukraine. The vast majority of "money" spent by the United States on this operation is humanitarian aide. The big numbers you keep seeing on defense items sent to Ukraine is on a lend lease basis, and on drawdowns of equipment that was bought decades ago. It's cheaper to let it be used for its original purpose than to sit in storage and be maintained to our military specifications.

---

ron.reagan said:

---

What oligarch is stealing the money?

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

What oligarch is stealing the money?

---

Well it's hard to say because even though Ukraine is one of the most corrupt nations on earth…our political class is fighting to prevent a full audit for those tax payer funds.






[President Biden wants to send another $37 billion of taxpayers funds to Ukraine. This is on top of $68 billion previously sent. Why hasn't our U.S. Government Accountability Office performed any audits of these funds? Taxpayers deserve to know that these dollars have been spent for their intended purpose. There should be a full accounting to confirm no waste, fraud or abuse has resulted….]

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

What oligarch is stealing the money?

---

Well it's hard to say because even though Ukraine is one of the most corrupt nations on earth…our political class is fighting to prevent a full audit for those tax payer funds.






[President Biden wants to send another $37 billion of taxpayers funds to Ukraine. This is on top of $68 billion previously sent. Why hasn't our U.S. Government Accountability Office performed any audits of these funds? Taxpayers deserve to know that these dollars have been spent for their intended purpose. There should be a full accounting to confirm no waste, fraud or abuse has resulted….]

---

You can't name a single corrupt oligarch? What a ****ing dumb ass

---

ron.reagan said:

---

Please read the article and then come back and answer my question.

---

ron.reagan said:

---

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You seem to not even understand what an oligarch is.

I hope that you have the opportunity to have all your family and friends murdered because someone in China read that Biden's son is corrupt.

---

HuMcK said:

---

This could turn in to an interesting test of whether or not Russia has sufficient reserves to staunch this without affecting other fronts.

Footage has shown multiple armored vehicles in use, and even a tank that may have had Ukrainian ID markings.

Free Russian Legion, during the ongoing joint operation with Russian Volunteer Corps, liberated Gora-Podol settlement and currently advancing on Grayvoron, says the official social media channels of Free Russian Legion.https://t.co/GrlOX8x4za pic.twitter.com/QfUrv5vXBN

— MilitaryLand.net (@Militarylandnet) May 22, 2023

---

It comes when it comes. pic.twitter.com/uathW42dpr

— NOELREPORTS 🇪🇺 🇺🇦 (@NOELreports) June 4, 2023

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

*taps sign*

"whataboutism is an extremely easy debate tactic."

---

My point isn't about Russian support per se, but what it implies (or doesn't imply) about Ukraine. Some of you would have us believe that anti-Russian sentiment is the only "real" feeling among Ukrainians while anything pro-Russian is necessarily fake. That is far from the truth.

---

I don't see a recall election, coups or attempts on the President's life! This guy is out there, he is all over. How many demonstrations are you seeing that the Russians are right?

---

Well, they elected Zelensky to make peace with the Russians and give autonomy to the Donbas. I guess it's a little late to recall him now.

---

I am not sure I agree they elected him for that reason. That is the first that I have heard that Zelensky ran on a platform to give autonomy to the Donbas. Looks like he did submit something in 2022 and the Ukrainian people said no. In addition, everything I can see is the terms the Russians would accept were ridiculously in their favor.

As for peace with the Russians, hard to make peace when the take Crimea and invade...

---

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/20/ukraines-leader-stood-on-platform-of-peace-but-finds-himself-on-brink-war

[When Volodymyr Zelenskiy sought to become Ukraine's president he stood on a platform of peace. Zelenskiy promised to sit down with Vladimir Putin and to reach a deal with Russia. He would end the unpopular war in the east and concentrate on important domestic reforms. ]

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/zelenskyys-peace

[On the campaign trail, presidential candidate Volodymyr Zelenskyy said multiple times that he would strike a peace deal during his presidency. He used as an electoral weapon people`s desire to have not just a stable life but also a peaceful one. Even though the war in the East, confined as it is to one region, does not interfere directly with the daily activities of many Ukrainians, ending the bloodshed continues to be a widely shared national goal...For Zelenskyy, achieving a peaceful end to the conflict in the Donbas is not only a way to leave his mark in the history books, it would also be a significant milestone in his political life. Even though Zelenskyy was elected primarily as the person voters thought most likely to improve their economic welfare, his ability to bring about peace will be the single most important criterion on which he is judged, ]

---

Yes, strike a peace deal. Not give half the Nation to them! Come on. You and Sam HAVE to be joking defending this.

---

You'd think...

---

I was half hoping you said "You think" and I was just being gullible. That is a better option than people thinking Putin was wronged after taking Crimea and rolling 300 tanks over the border!

---

You seem very offended that after 10 years of bloody war waged by the government in Kyiv against the locals of Donbas that the Russian army rolled over the border and decided to intervene on the side of the separatists.

I wish people like you cared as much about our borders and the invasion of foreigners as you care about the borders of a corrput ex-soviet state thousands of miles away.

But if it makes you mad that the ethnic russians of east Ukraine are trying to break off and join russia...you are welcome to get on a plane and head over there to fight.

They are very open to taking Western volunteers who want to fight.

Go have fun...but leave the American people and our tax dollars out of it.

---

That is not fair on our borders, this is not a conversation on our borders. Open a thread and I will be glad to join.

You keep acting as if a 60 year old has to pick up a rifle and go to Ukraine to agree they should defend thier border. they don't want me or US soldiers. My jumping, rucking and deploying days are over, I did my 5 years (ask my knees!).

We are not sending troops to fight Russia. We are providing intel and weapons, as asked. This isn't the US created war. Russia doesn't invade this doesn't happen, even after they took Crimea. This is on Putin, 100%.

---

Yet....keep letting the DC class escalate this war and we might find out it does not stop in Bakhmut

I remember a certain American President telling us that "We are not about to send American boys 9 or 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves"

How did that work out?

---

Nothing has escalated. We are still supplying arms and intel with our NATO allies, just like at the beginning. This is not a US unilateral effort that is escalating.

Why do you keep making it something it isn't? Sooner Putin realizes that HIS actions are causing self-fulfilling prophecies (NATO membership increasing) maybe this will stop.

IF the US sends troops outside of NATO, then I will agree it is escalating. But as of right now, it is not.

---

Sending fighter jets and removing any limitations to funding the war in the new debt limit deal is in fact escalation.

And you know it%85and you just happen to like it

Also the US leadership sabotaging European calls for peace and negotiation is just idiotic and monstrous

---

Apparently you and Sam have trouble actually reading. We are not sending F-16's.

---

Who said we were? It's still an escalation.

---

According to you guys Ukraine responding with anything other than T-55 tanks left from 1990 is an escalation. Russia sending missles into Kyiv was an escalation. Russia using Mercs was an escalation. Russia using Iranian drones is an escalation.

Again, why isn't Ukraine allowed to procure better weapons? I know Russia can pretty much do what they like, there are 7 Russian speaking people in Donbas... Well Western Pennslyvania better watch out, last time I visited my Mom's family in Johnstown, there were a ton of Russian speaking people. Should we give Johnstown, PA to him...

---

trey3216 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Bear8084 said:

---

*taps sign*

"whataboutism is an extremely easy debate tactic."

---

My point isn't about Russian support per se, but what it implies (or doesn't imply) about Ukraine. Some of you would have us believe that anti-Russian sentiment is the only "real" feeling among Ukrainians while anything pro-Russian is necessarily fake. That is far from the truth.

---

I don't see a recall election, coups or attempts on the President's life! This guy is out there, he is all over. How many demonstrations are you seeing that the Russians are right?

---

Well, they elected Zelensky to make peace with the Russians and give autonomy to the Donbas. I guess it's a little late to recall him now.

---

I am not sure I agree they elected him for that reason. That is the first that I have heard that Zelensky ran on a platform to give autonomy to the Donbas. Looks like he did submit something in 2022 and the Ukrainian people said no. In addition, everything I can see is the terms the Russians would accept were ridiculously in their favor.

As for peace with the Russians, hard to make peace when the take Crimea and invade...

---

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/20/ukraines-leader-stood-on-platform-of-peace-but-finds-himself-on-brink-war

[When Volodymyr Zelenskiy sought to become Ukraine's president he stood on a platform of peace. Zelenskiy promised to sit down with Vladimir Putin and to reach a deal with Russia. He would end the unpopular war in the east and concentrate on important domestic reforms. ]

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/zelenskyys-peace

[On the campaign trail, presidential candidate Volodymyr Zelenskyy said multiple times that he would strike a peace deal during his presidency. He used as an electoral weapon people`s desire to have not just a stable life but also a peaceful one. Even though the war in the East, confined as it is to one region, does not interfere directly with the daily activities of many Ukrainians, ending the bloodshed continues to be a widely shared national goal...For Zelenskyy, achieving a peaceful end to the conflict in the Donbas is not only a way to leave his mark in the history books, it would also be a significant milestone in his political life. Even though Zelenskyy was elected primarily as the person voters thought most likely to improve their economic welfare, his ability to bring about peace will be the single most important criterion on which he is judged, ]

---

Yes, strike a peace deal. Not give half the Nation to them! Come on. You and Sam HAVE to be joking defending this.

---

You'd think...

---

I was half hoping you said "You think" and I was just being gullible. That is a better option than people thinking Putin was wronged after taking Crimea and rolling 300 tanks over the border!

---

You seem very offended that after 10 years of bloody war waged by the government in Kyiv against the locals of Donbas that the Russian army rolled over the border and decided to intervene on the side of the separatists.

I wish people like you cared as much about our borders and the invasion of foreigners as you care about the borders of a corrput ex-soviet state thousands of miles away.

But if it makes you mad that the ethnic russians of east Ukraine are trying to break off and join russia...you are welcome to get on a plane and head over there to fight.

They are very open to taking Western volunteers who want to fight.

Go have fun...but leave the American people and our tax dollars out of it.

---

That is not fair on our borders, this is not a conversation on our borders. Open a thread and I will be glad to join.

You keep acting as if a 60 year old has to pick up a rifle and go to Ukraine to agree they should defend thier border. they don't want me or US soldiers. My jumping, rucking and deploying days are over, I did my 5 years (ask my knees!).

We are not sending troops to fight Russia. We are providing intel and weapons, as asked. This isn't the US created war. Russia doesn't invade this doesn't happen, even after they took Crimea. This is on Putin, 100%.

---

Yet....keep letting the DC class escalate this war and we might find out it does not stop in Bakhmut

I remember a certain American President telling us that "We are not about to send American boys 9 or 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves"

How did that work out?

---

Nothing has escalated. We are still supplying arms and intel with our NATO allies, just like at the beginning. This is not a US unilateral effort that is escalating.

Why do you keep making it something it isn't? Sooner Putin realizes that HIS actions are causing self-fulfilling prophecies (NATO membership increasing) maybe this will stop.

IF the US sends troops outside of NATO, then I will agree it is escalating. But as of right now, it is not.

---

Sending fighter jets and removing any limitations to funding the war in the new debt limit deal is in fact escalation.

And you know it%85and you just happen to like it

Also the US leadership sabotaging European calls for peace and negotiation is just idiotic and monstrous

---

Apparently you and Sam have trouble actually reading. We are not sending F-16's.

---

Who said we were? It's still an escalation.

---

According to you guys Ukraine responding with anything other than T-55 tanks left from 1990 is an escalation. Russia sending missles into Kyiv was an escalation. Russia using Mercs was an escalation. Russia using Iranian drones is an escalation.

Again, why isn't Ukraine allowed to procure better weapons? I know Russia can pretty much do what they like, there are 7 Russian speaking people in Donbas... Well Western Pennslyvania better watch out, last time I visited my Mom's family in Johnstown, there were a ton of Russian speaking people. Should we give Johnstown, PA to him...

---

We could just flood it, again.

---

🚨BREAKING: Prigozhin's Wagner PMC mercenaries have captured a Russian army Lt. Colonel. The embers of civil war in Russia begin to glow brighter. It appears both sides suffered significant casualties in this Russian-on-Russian gun fight. pic.twitter.com/vMCvHxvYEb

— Igor Sushko (@igorsushko) June 4, 2023

whiterock said:

---

When your mercenaries are skirmishing with your regular military units, you have some serious leadership problems.

🚨BREAKING: Prigozhin's Wagner PMC mercenaries have captured a Russian army Lt. Colonel. The embers of civil war in Russia begin to glow brighter. It appears both sides suffered significant casualties in this Russian-on-Russian gun fight. pic.twitter.com/vMCvHxvYEb

— Igor Sushko (@igorsushko) June 4, 2023

---

whiterock said:

---

When your mercenaries are skirmishing with your regular military units, you have some serious leadership problems.

🚨BREAKING: Prigozhin's Wagner PMC mercenaries have captured a Russian army Lt. Colonel. The embers of civil war in Russia begin to glow brighter. It appears both sides suffered significant casualties in this Russian-on-Russian gun fight. pic.twitter.com/vMCvHxvYEb

— Igor Sushko (@igorsushko) June 4, 2023

---

• Siberia has the resources to go alone.
• Russia, just west of the Urals tied in more with Europe?
• Far East Russia and China? Xi playing the long game?

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

When your mercenaries are skirmishing with your regular military units, you have some serious leadership problems.

🚨BREAKING: Prigozhin's Wagner PMC mercenaries have captured a Russian army Lt. Colonel. The embers of civil war in Russia begin to glow brighter. It appears both sides suffered significant casualties in this Russian-on-Russian gun fight. pic.twitter.com/vMCvHxvYEb

— Igor Sushko (@igorsushko) June 4, 2023

---

So, if Ukraine ends up bringing down Putin and Russia. What happens?

Do we see a break up of Russia? 11 time zones, there is a lot o

• Siberia has the resources to go alone.
• Russia, just west of the Urals tied in more with Europe?
• Far East Russia and China? Xi playing the long game?

Does give some food for thought. Besides the we are doomed people saying that it will be nuclear war...

---

whiterock said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

When your mercenaries are skirmishing with your regular military units, you have some serious leadership problems.

🚨BREAKING: Prigozhin's Wagner PMC mercenaries have captured a Russian army Lt. Colonel. The embers of civil war in Russia begin to glow brighter. It appears both sides suffered significant casualties in this Russian-on-Russian gun fight. pic.twitter.com/vMCvHxvYEb

— Igor Sushko (@igorsushko) June 4, 2023

---

So, if Ukraine ends up bringing down Putin and Russia. What happens?

Do we see a break up of Russia? 11 time zones, there is a lot o

• Siberia has the resources to go alone.
• Russia, just west of the Urals tied in more with Europe?
• Far East Russia and China? Xi playing the long game?

Does give some food for thought. Besides the we are doomed people saying that it will be nuclear war...

---

Good questions. For sure, the future of some non-Russian provinces may be an open question.

I watched a YouTube presentation by a Russian professor addressing your questions in detail. I didn't really think the odds of anything like that were terribly high, just an interesting thought experiment. But we've moved out of the "academic" realm and it's now something more than a theoretical possibility. It actually COULD happen.

---

RMF5630 said:

---

So, if Ukraine ends up bringing down Putin and Russia. What happens?

---

An entire new U.S. military command,
Security Assistance Group–Ukraine, has been devoted to aid &
training mission,with a staff of
300.Yet there is not a single official in U.S. govt. whose
full-time job is conflict diplomacy. Biden should appoint one. https://t.co/EVmAx5U8BP

— Katrina vandenHeuvel (@KatrinaNation) June 5, 2023

Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

---

When your mercenaries are skirmishing with your regular military units, you have some serious leadership problems.

🚨BREAKING: Prigozhin's Wagner PMC mercenaries have captured a Russian army Lt. Colonel. The embers of civil war in Russia begin to glow brighter. It appears both sides suffered significant casualties in this Russian-on-Russian gun fight. pic.twitter.com/vMCvHxvYEb

— Igor Sushko (@igorsushko) June 4, 2023

---

No doubt.

The Russian military is a basket case...low morale, low pay, shoddy equipment, economic corruption, leadership incompetence, etc.

So how does that fact the line up with the NATO expansionist idea that we have to fight the russians in Donbas before they roll their unstoppable fighting force into Poland and Germany?

Russia is either a 2nd rate military power (really 3rd rate)...or its a massive threat to the military and economic juggernaut that is the USA-EU.

But it can't be both at the same time.

---

whiterock said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

trey3216 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

RMF5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

---

What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

---

Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

---

It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

---

Well after a USA backed coup in 2014 I supposed they do.

At least Western and Central Ukraine do.

Eastern Ukrainians have been fighting for a decade now against the government in Kyiv and against western integration.

---

Eastern Ukrainians that were bought off and supplied by.....you guessed it...Russia

---

And who do you think bought off and supplied the Taliban fighters in Afghanistan in the 1980s?

Come on....lets not even go down this road.

You could even make a strong argument that the French were responsible for the success the America war of independence. They certain paid for it and supplied it with the weapons and cash need for success.

---

Which is why it's so damn funny you get angry about America now, but we know why it frustrates you.

Hell, Trump is finally getting his goal/wish of everyone in NATO pulling their weight. lol

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Why would I be angry about America now?

Are you implying that the D.C. ruling class and its goals are one in the same as America?

Are Nation and State mystically merged?

You seem to think whatever the power players in D.C. decide is what is best for America.

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I'm sorry the CSA didn't fully pan out for you.

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I'm sorry you think the D.C. ruling class should be unquestionably trusted and supported and that they give a **** about you trey.

In fact they actively dislike people like you

---

I've never said or thought they are to be ubiquitously trusted. Not by a damn sight. But I'm also capable of knowing when to call a spade a spade, and Russia has been one for nearly its entire existence.

At least there's some sense of hope and optimism in "The Great Experiment", even with Lomax in office.

---

After 20 years of military failures and trillions in wasted tax payer money you trust them enough for another round of fun.... this time in Eastern Europe.

You trust them enough to get a kick out of the idea of replaying the Cold war.

And you seem to think our experiment in Constitutional Republican government is compatible with a unelected and unaccountable intelligence agencies and a endlessly expanding military-industrial blob in D.C.

Strange that I can't find the CIA in the writings of the Founding Fathers or in the Constitution.

Hell our Founding Fathers did not even want a standing army.


[Two hundred years ago, John Quincy Adams gave one of the most famous speeches in American history. Speaking in the Capitol building to the citizens of Washington, D.C., the secretary of state commemorated the Declaration of Independence and attacked the legitimacy of autocracy and colonialism.

She (United States) has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations while asserting and maintaining her own. She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart. She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama the European world, will be contests of inveterate power, and emerging right. Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.]

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funny you what you emphasized, because much of that does not equate to what our country stands for with respect to what Russia is doing in Ukraine.

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Exactly. It is not "interfering in the concerns of others" to help Ukraine defend itself from Russian invasion.

And it's not like a brand new nation with war debts to pay doesn't have self-serving reasons for saying the things our founders said about engagement in European alliances. No need for a nascent America fully capable of prosperity in isolation to get involved in alliances leading to wars, the outcome of which would offer no conceivable benefits to us, only possibly invite invasion and interference.

The policy made a ton of sense at the time.
It makes no sense at this time.

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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trey3216 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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RMF5630 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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[The United States has committed itself to expanding NATO to Russia's borders. NATO, of course, stands for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization." A nave onlooker might ask why countries like Bulgaria, Finland, and Poland would be included in such a treaty. The answer is pretty simple: NATO has nothing to do with the North Atlantic. It is an anti-Russian military alliance.

Russia knew (or, rather, knows) that Ukraine has been courting both the European Union and NATO. Kiev wants to unite itself politically, economically, and militarily to the West. That would mean the United States has a right to place more troops and artillery on Russia's border. Russia didn't like that, and so it lashed out.
But the question is why does the United States want to put troops and artillery on Russia's border? Why has it maintained and, indeed, expanded this anti-Russian alliance, even though its original objective (i.e., the destruction of the Soviet Union) has been accomplished?

Our leaders have been clear on that point. To quote Richard Moore, the current chief of MI6: "With the tragedy and destruction unfolding so distressingly in Ukraine, we should remember the values and hard-won freedoms that distinguish us from Putin, none more than LGBT+ rights."
This isn't Kremlin disinformation. These are the words coming from the horse's mouth. We hate Russia because they are mean to the gays.
Deacon Nicholas Kotar, the great novelist and translator, gave a wider view:

Quote:

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What the Russian government is doing is setting a red line to the spread of NGO-style liberal democracy. And Ukraine, unfortunately, has been a buffer zone, and a kind of test-case, for the spread, not of a political system, but of a system of values, that is espoused by the elites only....The problem is that with all these colored revolutions, no matter how you look at it, the thing that comes in together with the money is an insistence, unfortunately, on the adoption of the Western liberal cultural milieu. It happened in Georgia, it happened in Ukraine, it happened everywhere.

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Ultimately, this isn't about Russia. It's not even about Ukraine. It's about us. Western elites want us to believe that the triumph of "NGO-style liberal democracy" is inevitable everywhere. But it's not. Russia is living proof of that.]

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It is all about Ukraine! They want to be part of the EU, NATO and the West to achieve a higher quality of life for their citizens.

The only living, and not so living, proof we have of anything is that the Russian system WILL NOT result in a higher quality of life for citizen! Nations that hitch its wagon to Russia end up with less freedom, worse economies and 2nd world level quality of lives. Why would ANY nation prefer Russia to the EU? How about this, let's look at those that do:

• Belarus
• Iran
• North Korea
• Cuba
• Syria
• Venezula
• Myanmar

You can say with a straight face that you would prefer that system and quality of life over the EU and NATO membership?

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Well after a USA backed coup in 2014 I supposed they do.

At least Western and Central Ukraine do.

Eastern Ukrainians have been fighting for a decade now against the government in Kyiv and against western integration.

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Eastern Ukrainians that were bought off and supplied by.....you guessed it...Russia

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And who do you think bought off and supplied the Taliban fighters in Afghanistan in the 1980s?

Come on....lets not even go down this road.

You could even make a strong argument that the French were responsible for the success the America war of independence. They certain paid for it and supplied it with the weapons and cash need for success.

---

Which is why it's so damn funny you get angry about America now, but we know why it frustrates you.

Hell, Trump is finally getting his goal/wish of everyone in NATO pulling their weight. lol

---

Why would I be angry about America now?

Are you implying that the D.C. ruling class and its goals are one in the same as America?

Are Nation and State mystically merged?

You seem to think whatever the power players in D.C. decide is what is best for America.

---

I'm sorry the CSA didn't fully pan out for you.

---

I'm sorry you think the D.C. ruling class should be unquestionably trusted and supported and that they give a **** about you trey.

In fact they actively dislike people like you

---

I've never said or thought they are to be ubiquitously trusted. Not by a damn sight. But I'm also capable of knowing when to call a spade a spade, and Russia has been one for nearly its entire existence.

At least there's some sense of hope and optimism in "The Great Experiment", even with Lomax in office.

---

After 20 years of military failures and trillions in wasted tax payer money you trust them enough for another round of fun.... this time in Eastern Europe.

You trust them enough to get a kick out of the idea of replaying the Cold war.

And you seem to think our experiment in Constitutional Republican government is compatible with a unelected and unaccountable intelligence agencies and a endlessly expanding military-industrial blob in D.C.

Strange that I can't find the CIA in the writings of the Founding Fathers or in the Constitution.

Hell our Founding Fathers did not even want a standing army.


[Two hundred years ago, John Quincy Adams gave one of the most famous speeches in American history. Speaking in the Capitol building to the citizens of Washington, D.C., the secretary of state commemorated the Declaration of Independence and attacked the legitimacy of autocracy and colonialism.

She (United States) has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations while asserting and maintaining her own. She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart. She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama the European world, will be contests of inveterate power, and emerging right. Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.]

---

funny you what you emphasized, because much of that does not equate to what our country stands for with respect to what Russia is doing in Ukraine.

---

Exactly. It is not "interfering in the concerns of others" to help Ukraine defend itself from Russian invasion.

And it's not like a brand new nation with war debts to pay doesn't have self-serving reasons for saying the things our founders said about engagement in European alliances. No need for a nascent America fully capable of prosperity in isolation to get involved in alliances leading to wars, the outcome of which would offer no conceivable benefits to us, only possibly invite invasion and interference.

The policy made a ton of sense at the time.
It makes no sense at this time.

---

No one else projects power globally like we do.

How ironic that our Founders' advice makes sense for everyone except us.

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