🚨Milley today:
— Lord Bebo (@MyLordBebo) July 18, 2023
- Russians are poorly trained, equipped and motivated
- They predicted on paper something else
- minefields are the problem, not aircraft
- if Ukraine works at night, Russia can’t use their air-force
-> Fascinating to hear the same thing 5 weeks into this failure pic.twitter.com/Fkrw6dmfJC
KaiBear said:If you are over the age of 17, please seek immediate psychiatric care as you make zero sense 90% of the time.ron.reagan said:"By now most of them realize they have been manipulated into this nightmare. "KaiBear said:All true.Sam Lowry said:
With apologies to Jack Bauer...
Russia cannot win
We'll fight to the last Ukrainian
It's a stalemate - YOU ARE HERE
We didn't lose, we killed a lot of Russians
We only lost for lack of resolve
Let's try again, and if you don't agree you're a nazi
Wonder about the curent attitude of Ukranians toward Biden and the Umited States.
By now most of them realize they have been manipulated nto this nightmare.
Tens of thousands of Ukranians are dead. MILLIONS more have been forced to leave their homes and are scattered throughout Europe.
Now Ukranians need US financial suppoert more than ever.
Bitterness is only going to increase.
Coming from the guy willing to prostitute his family in exchange for national security.
You would have fit in a lot better on the UK side of the American revolution.
LOL 'prostitute his family in exchange for national security' Almost as bizarre as your earlier ' all Christians are evil '.
FYI almost 40% of colonists did support England during the American Revolution. Many were murdered, beaten and/or had their property stolen. Tens of thousands went further west to escape persecution.
Thousands of others left the country altogether going to Canada, Europe or the Caribbean.
If France and Spain had not supported the Continental armies with money, guns, uniforms, gunpowder and other supplies, it is highly unlikely England would have lost the war.
One could argue Americans would have been far better off remaining in the British empire for an additional century. At the very least the Civil War would have been averted.
FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:If you are over the age of 17, please seek immediate psychiatric care as you make zero sense 90% of the time.ron.reagan said:"By now most of them realize they have been manipulated into this nightmare. "KaiBear said:All true.Sam Lowry said:
With apologies to Jack Bauer...
Russia cannot win
We'll fight to the last Ukrainian
It's a stalemate - YOU ARE HERE
We didn't lose, we killed a lot of Russians
We only lost for lack of resolve
Let's try again, and if you don't agree you're a nazi
Wonder about the curent attitude of Ukranians toward Biden and the Umited States.
By now most of them realize they have been manipulated nto this nightmare.
Tens of thousands of Ukranians are dead. MILLIONS more have been forced to leave their homes and are scattered throughout Europe.
Now Ukranians need US financial suppoert more than ever.
Bitterness is only going to increase.
Coming from the guy willing to prostitute his family in exchange for national security.
You would have fit in a lot better on the UK side of the American revolution.
LOL 'prostitute his family in exchange for national security' Almost as bizarre as your earlier ' all Christians are evil '.
FYI almost 40% of colonists did support England during the American Revolution. Many were murdered, beaten and/or had their property stolen. Tens of thousands went further west to escape persecution.
Thousands of others left the country altogether going to Canada, Europe or the Caribbean.
If France and Spain had not supported the Continental armies with money, guns, uniforms, gunpowder and other supplies, it is highly unlikely England would have lost the war.
One could argue Americans would have been far better off remaining in the British empire for an additional century. At the very least the Civil War would have been averted.
Really? Then the Civil War would have been fought with machine guns, hand grenades, planes and tanks. Death and destruction would have been exponentially worse. It is never better to push off a fight for a later time, killing gets more efficient with time, not less. It was the right time for Colonies to leave, when other powers were able and willing to help. It takes help to break away...
The right answer was to let Ukraine in NATO in 2008. Deterrence through strength works.
It seems like you come from a long line of cowards throwing their family out to the wolvesKaiBear said:If you are over the age of 17, please seek immediate psychiatric care as you make zero sense 90% of the time.ron.reagan said:"By now most of them realize they have been manipulated into this nightmare. "KaiBear said:All true.Sam Lowry said:
With apologies to Jack Bauer...
Russia cannot win
We'll fight to the last Ukrainian
It's a stalemate - YOU ARE HERE
We didn't lose, we killed a lot of Russians
We only lost for lack of resolve
Let's try again, and if you don't agree you're a nazi
Wonder about the curent attitude of Ukranians toward Biden and the Umited States.
By now most of them realize they have been manipulated nto this nightmare.
Tens of thousands of Ukranians are dead. MILLIONS more have been forced to leave their homes and are scattered throughout Europe.
Now Ukranians need US financial suppoert more than ever.
Bitterness is only going to increase.
Coming from the guy willing to prostitute his family in exchange for national security.
You would have fit in a lot better on the UK side of the American revolution.
LOL 'prostitute his family in exchange for national security' Almost as bizarre as your earlier ' all Christians are evil '.
FYI almost 40% of colonists did support England during the American Revolution. Many were murdered, beaten and/or had their property stolen. Tens of thousands went further west to escape persecution.
Thousands of others left the country altogether going to Canada, Europe or the Caribbean.
If France and Spain had not supported the Continental armies with money, guns, uniforms, gunpowder and other supplies, it is highly unlikely England would have lost the war.
One could argue Americans would have been far better off remaining in the British empire for an additional century. At the very least the Civil War would have been averted.
ron.reagan said:It seems like you come from a long line of cowards throwing their family out to the wolvesKaiBear said:If you are over the age of 17, please seek immediate psychiatric care as you make zero sense 90% of the time.ron.reagan said:"By now most of them realize they have been manipulated into this nightmare. "KaiBear said:All true.Sam Lowry said:
With apologies to Jack Bauer...
Russia cannot win
We'll fight to the last Ukrainian
It's a stalemate - YOU ARE HERE
We didn't lose, we killed a lot of Russians
We only lost for lack of resolve
Let's try again, and if you don't agree you're a nazi
Wonder about the curent attitude of Ukranians toward Biden and the Umited States.
By now most of them realize they have been manipulated nto this nightmare.
Tens of thousands of Ukranians are dead. MILLIONS more have been forced to leave their homes and are scattered throughout Europe.
Now Ukranians need US financial suppoert more than ever.
Bitterness is only going to increase.
Coming from the guy willing to prostitute his family in exchange for national security.
You would have fit in a lot better on the UK side of the American revolution.
LOL 'prostitute his family in exchange for national security' Almost as bizarre as your earlier ' all Christians are evil '.
FYI almost 40% of colonists did support England during the American Revolution. Many were murdered, beaten and/or had their property stolen. Tens of thousands went further west to escape persecution.
Thousands of others left the country altogether going to Canada, Europe or the Caribbean.
If France and Spain had not supported the Continental armies with money, guns, uniforms, gunpowder and other supplies, it is highly unlikely England would have lost the war.
One could argue Americans would have been far better off remaining in the British empire for an additional century. At the very least the Civil War would have been averted.
Donald Trump, when asked how he would end Russia’s war against Ukraine in 24 hours:
— The Recount (@therecount) July 19, 2023
“I would tell Putin, ‘Gotta settle.’ I would Zelenskyy, ‘You gotta settle.’ I would tell one, ‘You’re gonna load up with money.’ I’d tell the other, ‘You’re not gonna get any money.’” pic.twitter.com/42D2oyBF9L
KaiBear said:FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:If you are over the age of 17, please seek immediate psychiatric care as you make zero sense 90% of the time.ron.reagan said:"By now most of them realize they have been manipulated into this nightmare. "KaiBear said:All true.Sam Lowry said:
With apologies to Jack Bauer...
Russia cannot win
We'll fight to the last Ukrainian
It's a stalemate - YOU ARE HERE
We didn't lose, we killed a lot of Russians
We only lost for lack of resolve
Let's try again, and if you don't agree you're a nazi
Wonder about the curent attitude of Ukranians toward Biden and the Umited States.
By now most of them realize they have been manipulated nto this nightmare.
Tens of thousands of Ukranians are dead. MILLIONS more have been forced to leave their homes and are scattered throughout Europe.
Now Ukranians need US financial suppoert more than ever.
Bitterness is only going to increase.
Coming from the guy willing to prostitute his family in exchange for national security.
You would have fit in a lot better on the UK side of the American revolution.
LOL 'prostitute his family in exchange for national security' Almost as bizarre as your earlier ' all Christians are evil '.
FYI almost 40% of colonists did support England during the American Revolution. Many were murdered, beaten and/or had their property stolen. Tens of thousands went further west to escape persecution.
Thousands of others left the country altogether going to Canada, Europe or the Caribbean.
If France and Spain had not supported the Continental armies with money, guns, uniforms, gunpowder and other supplies, it is highly unlikely England would have lost the war.
One could argue Americans would have been far better off remaining in the British empire for an additional century. At the very least the Civil War would have been averted.
Really? Then the Civil War would have been fought with machine guns, hand grenades, planes and tanks. Death and destruction would have been exponentially worse. It is never better to push off a fight for a later time, killing gets more efficient with time, not less. It was the right time for Colonies to leave, when other powers were able and willing to help. It takes help to break away...
The right answer was to let Ukraine in NATO in 2008. Deterrence through strength works.
1. Slavery was already losing profitability by 1860. As a far cheaper labor source was being developed .
The Irish.
2. The British Empire eliminated slavery throughout their possessions by COMPENSATING the slave owners .
3. Long before your fantasy of a civil war with planes and tanks ( what, no mutant turtles ? ) England would have forced a similar compensation plan on southern slave owners who by that time would have been thrilled to dump their expensive human chattel .
No slavery, no civil war.FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:If you are over the age of 17, please seek immediate psychiatric care as you make zero sense 90% of the time.ron.reagan said:"By now most of them realize they have been manipulated into this nightmare. "KaiBear said:All true.Sam Lowry said:
With apologies to Jack Bauer...
Russia cannot win
We'll fight to the last Ukrainian
It's a stalemate - YOU ARE HERE
We didn't lose, we killed a lot of Russians
We only lost for lack of resolve
Let's try again, and if you don't agree you're a nazi
Wonder about the curent attitude of Ukranians toward Biden and the Umited States.
By now most of them realize they have been manipulated nto this nightmare.
Tens of thousands of Ukranians are dead. MILLIONS more have been forced to leave their homes and are scattered throughout Europe.
Now Ukranians need US financial suppoert more than ever.
Bitterness is only going to increase.
Coming from the guy willing to prostitute his family in exchange for national security.
You would have fit in a lot better on the UK side of the American revolution.
LOL 'prostitute his family in exchange for national security' Almost as bizarre as your earlier ' all Christians are evil '.
FYI almost 40% of colonists did support England during the American Revolution. Many were murdered, beaten and/or had their property stolen. Tens of thousands went further west to escape persecution.
Thousands of others left the country altogether going to Canada, Europe or the Caribbean.
If France and Spain had not supported the Continental armies with money, guns, uniforms, gunpowder and other supplies, it is highly unlikely England would have lost the war.
One could argue Americans would have been far better off remaining in the British empire for an additional century. At the very least the Civil War would have been averted.
Really? Then the Civil War would have been fought with machine guns, hand grenades, planes and tanks. Death and destruction would have been exponentially worse. It is never better to push off a fight for a later time, killing gets more efficient with time, not less. It was the right time for Colonies to leave, when other powers were able and willing to help. It takes help to break away...
The right answer was to let Ukraine in NATO in 2008. Deterrence through strength works.
1. Slavery was already losing profitability by 1860. As a far cheaper labor source was being developed .
The Irish.
2. The British Empire eliminated slavery throughout their possessions by COMPENSATING the slave owners .
3. Long before your fantasy of a civil war with planes and tanks ( what, no mutant turtles ? ) England would have forced a similar compensation plan on southern slave owners who by that time would have been thrilled to dump their expensive human chattel .
Hey, you are the one dreaming of moving American independence back 100 years The Civil War was being fought no matter what. Moving indepenfence from 1780 to 1880 would not have solved the problems an growing pains the US went through. The show down between the States and Feds was happening, moving it from 1860, even to 1910 would not have changed the culture and the technology, believe it or not including tanks, was more deadly by 1910.
Tactics and trench warfare more brutal. Time does not make situations better, actually the earlier you deal with a problem the better. History has shown over and over, pushing it off equals disaster.
But I know you prefer insulting people to discussing, can change the name but same old Colorado...
Signed Donatello.
KaiBear said:No slavery, no civil war.FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:If you are over the age of 17, please seek immediate psychiatric care as you make zero sense 90% of the time.ron.reagan said:"By now most of them realize they have been manipulated into this nightmare. "KaiBear said:All true.Sam Lowry said:
With apologies to Jack Bauer...
Russia cannot win
We'll fight to the last Ukrainian
It's a stalemate - YOU ARE HERE
We didn't lose, we killed a lot of Russians
We only lost for lack of resolve
Let's try again, and if you don't agree you're a nazi
Wonder about the curent attitude of Ukranians toward Biden and the Umited States.
By now most of them realize they have been manipulated nto this nightmare.
Tens of thousands of Ukranians are dead. MILLIONS more have been forced to leave their homes and are scattered throughout Europe.
Now Ukranians need US financial suppoert more than ever.
Bitterness is only going to increase.
Coming from the guy willing to prostitute his family in exchange for national security.
You would have fit in a lot better on the UK side of the American revolution.
LOL 'prostitute his family in exchange for national security' Almost as bizarre as your earlier ' all Christians are evil '.
FYI almost 40% of colonists did support England during the American Revolution. Many were murdered, beaten and/or had their property stolen. Tens of thousands went further west to escape persecution.
Thousands of others left the country altogether going to Canada, Europe or the Caribbean.
If France and Spain had not supported the Continental armies with money, guns, uniforms, gunpowder and other supplies, it is highly unlikely England would have lost the war.
One could argue Americans would have been far better off remaining in the British empire for an additional century. At the very least the Civil War would have been averted.
Really? Then the Civil War would have been fought with machine guns, hand grenades, planes and tanks. Death and destruction would have been exponentially worse. It is never better to push off a fight for a later time, killing gets more efficient with time, not less. It was the right time for Colonies to leave, when other powers were able and willing to help. It takes help to break away...
The right answer was to let Ukraine in NATO in 2008. Deterrence through strength works.
1. Slavery was already losing profitability by 1860. As a far cheaper labor source was being developed .
The Irish.
2. The British Empire eliminated slavery throughout their possessions by COMPENSATING the slave owners .
3. Long before your fantasy of a civil war with planes and tanks ( what, no mutant turtles ? ) England would have forced a similar compensation plan on southern slave owners who by that time would have been thrilled to dump their expensive human chattel .
Hey, you are the one dreaming of moving American independence back 100 years The Civil War was being fought no matter what. Moving indepenfence from 1780 to 1880 would not have solved the problems an growing pains the US went through. The show down between the States and Feds was happening, moving it from 1860, even to 1910 would not have changed the culture and the technology, believe it or not including tanks, was more deadly by 1910.
Tactics and trench warfare more brutal. Time does not make situations better, actually the earlier you deal with a problem the better. History has shown over and over, pushing it off equals disaster.
But I know you prefer insulting people to discussing, can change the name but same old Colorado...
Signed Donatello.
British prevail during the American Revolution and slavery ends with compensation .Indians are treated more justly and the Mormons wouldn't have needed to flee to the deserts of Utah .
US gains independence peacefully much like Canada and our unfortunate racial scars would be much reduced.
Much prefer civil discusions than childish exchanges. Regardless, most have an incredably limitted knowledge of US history beyond the palp they are taught in jr high.
Relatively easy to connect the dots.Oldbear83 said:
Cool story bro.
Funny though, how the History of Britain between Henry V and Churchill was so cruel and bloody.
I somehow believe the course of the world would not have been much as you describe, especially if the Brits had been able to hold onto their American colonies. It was the loss of those colonies, after all, which suggested that Reality was no longer a British Perquisite.
Again, cool story. I can see you really like it.KaiBear said:Relatively easy to connect the dots.Oldbear83 said:
Cool story bro.
Funny though, how the History of Britain between Henry V and Churchill was so cruel and bloody.
I somehow believe the course of the world would not have been much as you describe, especially if the Brits had been able to hold onto their American colonies. It was the loss of those colonies, after all, which suggested that Reality was no longer a British Perquisite.
Canada never had to fight a horribly bloody war over slavery because it was abolished peacefully via compensation .
Canada had far fewer indian wars because their native populations were treated more even handedly .
Canada never felt compelled to invade the Philippines, Puerto Rico, nunerous countries in central America, China, etc, etc.
Wrong side won the American revolution. Damn the French and all their aid.
I can agree with the Canada model, although I do wonder what the boundaries would be.KaiBear said:No slavery, no civil war.FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:If you are over the age of 17, please seek immediate psychiatric care as you make zero sense 90% of the time.ron.reagan said:"By now most of them realize they have been manipulated into this nightmare. "KaiBear said:All true.Sam Lowry said:
With apologies to Jack Bauer...
Russia cannot win
We'll fight to the last Ukrainian
It's a stalemate - YOU ARE HERE
We didn't lose, we killed a lot of Russians
We only lost for lack of resolve
Let's try again, and if you don't agree you're a nazi
Wonder about the curent attitude of Ukranians toward Biden and the Umited States.
By now most of them realize they have been manipulated nto this nightmare.
Tens of thousands of Ukranians are dead. MILLIONS more have been forced to leave their homes and are scattered throughout Europe.
Now Ukranians need US financial suppoert more than ever.
Bitterness is only going to increase.
Coming from the guy willing to prostitute his family in exchange for national security.
You would have fit in a lot better on the UK side of the American revolution.
LOL 'prostitute his family in exchange for national security' Almost as bizarre as your earlier ' all Christians are evil '.
FYI almost 40% of colonists did support England during the American Revolution. Many were murdered, beaten and/or had their property stolen. Tens of thousands went further west to escape persecution.
Thousands of others left the country altogether going to Canada, Europe or the Caribbean.
If France and Spain had not supported the Continental armies with money, guns, uniforms, gunpowder and other supplies, it is highly unlikely England would have lost the war.
One could argue Americans would have been far better off remaining in the British empire for an additional century. At the very least the Civil War would have been averted.
Really? Then the Civil War would have been fought with machine guns, hand grenades, planes and tanks. Death and destruction would have been exponentially worse. It is never better to push off a fight for a later time, killing gets more efficient with time, not less. It was the right time for Colonies to leave, when other powers were able and willing to help. It takes help to break away...
The right answer was to let Ukraine in NATO in 2008. Deterrence through strength works.
1. Slavery was already losing profitability by 1860. As a far cheaper labor source was being developed .
The Irish.
2. The British Empire eliminated slavery throughout their possessions by COMPENSATING the slave owners .
3. Long before your fantasy of a civil war with planes and tanks ( what, no mutant turtles ? ) England would have forced a similar compensation plan on southern slave owners who by that time would have been thrilled to dump their expensive human chattel .
Hey, you are the one dreaming of moving American independence back 100 years The Civil War was being fought no matter what. Moving indepenfence from 1780 to 1880 would not have solved the problems an growing pains the US went through. The show down between the States and Feds was happening, moving it from 1860, even to 1910 would not have changed the culture and the technology, believe it or not including tanks, was more deadly by 1910.
Tactics and trench warfare more brutal. Time does not make situations better, actually the earlier you deal with a problem the better. History has shown over and over, pushing it off equals disaster.
But I know you prefer insulting people to discussing, can change the name but same old Colorado...
Signed Donatello.
British prevail during the American Revolution and slavery ends with compensation rather than 600,00 dead.
Indians are treated more justly and the Mormons wouldn't have needed to flee to the deserts of Utah .
US gains independence peacefully much like Canada, and our unfortunate racial scars would be much reduced.
Much prefer civil discusions than childish exchanges. Regardless, most have an incredably limitted knowledge of US history beyond the palp they are taught in jr high.
World history is rarely taught at all , which is one reason our government constatly makes the same bloody blunders.
Civil War was overwhelmingly about slaves and the economic value they represented.FLBear5630 said:I can agree with the Canada model, although I do wonder what the boundaries would be.KaiBear said:No slavery, no civil war.FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:If you are over the age of 17, please seek immediate psychiatric care as you make zero sense 90% of the time.ron.reagan said:"By now most of them realize they have been manipulated into this nightmare. "KaiBear said:All true.Sam Lowry said:
With apologies to Jack Bauer...
Russia cannot win
We'll fight to the last Ukrainian
It's a stalemate - YOU ARE HERE
We didn't lose, we killed a lot of Russians
We only lost for lack of resolve
Let's try again, and if you don't agree you're a nazi
Wonder about the curent attitude of Ukranians toward Biden and the Umited States.
By now most of them realize they have been manipulated nto this nightmare.
Tens of thousands of Ukranians are dead. MILLIONS more have been forced to leave their homes and are scattered throughout Europe.
Now Ukranians need US financial suppoert more than ever.
Bitterness is only going to increase.
Coming from the guy willing to prostitute his family in exchange for national security.
You would have fit in a lot better on the UK side of the American revolution.
LOL 'prostitute his family in exchange for national security' Almost as bizarre as your earlier ' all Christians are evil '.
FYI almost 40% of colonists did support England during the American Revolution. Many were murdered, beaten and/or had their property stolen. Tens of thousands went further west to escape persecution.
Thousands of others left the country altogether going to Canada, Europe or the Caribbean.
If France and Spain had not supported the Continental armies with money, guns, uniforms, gunpowder and other supplies, it is highly unlikely England would have lost the war.
One could argue Americans would have been far better off remaining in the British empire for an additional century. At the very least the Civil War would have been averted.
Really? Then the Civil War would have been fought with machine guns, hand grenades, planes and tanks. Death and destruction would have been exponentially worse. It is never better to push off a fight for a later time, killing gets more efficient with time, not less. It was the right time for Colonies to leave, when other powers were able and willing to help. It takes help to break away...
The right answer was to let Ukraine in NATO in 2008. Deterrence through strength works.
1. Slavery was already losing profitability by 1860. As a far cheaper labor source was being developed .
The Irish.
2. The British Empire eliminated slavery throughout their possessions by COMPENSATING the slave owners .
3. Long before your fantasy of a civil war with planes and tanks ( what, no mutant turtles ? ) England would have forced a similar compensation plan on southern slave owners who by that time would have been thrilled to dump their expensive human chattel .
Hey, you are the one dreaming of moving American independence back 100 years The Civil War was being fought no matter what. Moving indepenfence from 1780 to 1880 would not have solved the problems an growing pains the US went through. The show down between the States and Feds was happening, moving it from 1860, even to 1910 would not have changed the culture and the technology, believe it or not including tanks, was more deadly by 1910.
Tactics and trench warfare more brutal. Time does not make situations better, actually the earlier you deal with a problem the better. History has shown over and over, pushing it off equals disaster.
But I know you prefer insulting people to discussing, can change the name but same old Colorado...
Signed Donatello.
British prevail during the American Revolution and slavery ends with compensation rather than 600,00 dead.
Indians are treated more justly and the Mormons wouldn't have needed to flee to the deserts of Utah .
US gains independence peacefully much like Canada, and our unfortunate racial scars would be much reduced.
Much prefer civil discusions than childish exchanges. Regardless, most have an incredably limitted knowledge of US history beyond the palp they are taught in jr high.
World history is rarely taught at all , which is one reason our government constatly makes the same bloody blunders.
You really think that the Civil War would have prevented, huh? I am not as optomistic. The Fed vs State issue needed to be settled and their were plenty of other issues that would have provoked it, especially abou the economy/
I think you oversimplify the Civil War and it is vogue to make it a one issue war. There were several aspects of the war from the the agrarian nature of the Southern economy (which slavery was a big part) to dominance of the Fed. The vast majority of those fighting in the war had no slaves, but he love of State and its right to choose was a big issue..KaiBear said:Civil War was overwhelmingly about slaves and the economic value they represented.FLBear5630 said:I can agree with the Canada model, although I do wonder what the boundaries would be.KaiBear said:No slavery, no civil war.FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:If you are over the age of 17, please seek immediate psychiatric care as you make zero sense 90% of the time.ron.reagan said:"By now most of them realize they have been manipulated into this nightmare. "KaiBear said:All true.Sam Lowry said:
With apologies to Jack Bauer...
Russia cannot win
We'll fight to the last Ukrainian
It's a stalemate - YOU ARE HERE
We didn't lose, we killed a lot of Russians
We only lost for lack of resolve
Let's try again, and if you don't agree you're a nazi
Wonder about the curent attitude of Ukranians toward Biden and the Umited States.
By now most of them realize they have been manipulated nto this nightmare.
Tens of thousands of Ukranians are dead. MILLIONS more have been forced to leave their homes and are scattered throughout Europe.
Now Ukranians need US financial suppoert more than ever.
Bitterness is only going to increase.
Coming from the guy willing to prostitute his family in exchange for national security.
You would have fit in a lot better on the UK side of the American revolution.
LOL 'prostitute his family in exchange for national security' Almost as bizarre as your earlier ' all Christians are evil '.
FYI almost 40% of colonists did support England during the American Revolution. Many were murdered, beaten and/or had their property stolen. Tens of thousands went further west to escape persecution.
Thousands of others left the country altogether going to Canada, Europe or the Caribbean.
If France and Spain had not supported the Continental armies with money, guns, uniforms, gunpowder and other supplies, it is highly unlikely England would have lost the war.
One could argue Americans would have been far better off remaining in the British empire for an additional century. At the very least the Civil War would have been averted.
Really? Then the Civil War would have been fought with machine guns, hand grenades, planes and tanks. Death and destruction would have been exponentially worse. It is never better to push off a fight for a later time, killing gets more efficient with time, not less. It was the right time for Colonies to leave, when other powers were able and willing to help. It takes help to break away...
The right answer was to let Ukraine in NATO in 2008. Deterrence through strength works.
1. Slavery was already losing profitability by 1860. As a far cheaper labor source was being developed .
The Irish.
2. The British Empire eliminated slavery throughout their possessions by COMPENSATING the slave owners .
3. Long before your fantasy of a civil war with planes and tanks ( what, no mutant turtles ? ) England would have forced a similar compensation plan on southern slave owners who by that time would have been thrilled to dump their expensive human chattel .
Hey, you are the one dreaming of moving American independence back 100 years The Civil War was being fought no matter what. Moving indepenfence from 1780 to 1880 would not have solved the problems an growing pains the US went through. The show down between the States and Feds was happening, moving it from 1860, even to 1910 would not have changed the culture and the technology, believe it or not including tanks, was more deadly by 1910.
Tactics and trench warfare more brutal. Time does not make situations better, actually the earlier you deal with a problem the better. History has shown over and over, pushing it off equals disaster.
But I know you prefer insulting people to discussing, can change the name but same old Colorado...
Signed Donatello.
British prevail during the American Revolution and slavery ends with compensation rather than 600,00 dead.
Indians are treated more justly and the Mormons wouldn't have needed to flee to the deserts of Utah .
US gains independence peacefully much like Canada, and our unfortunate racial scars would be much reduced.
Much prefer civil discusions than childish exchanges. Regardless, most have an incredably limitted knowledge of US history beyond the palp they are taught in jr high.
World history is rarely taught at all , which is one reason our government constatly makes the same bloody blunders.
You really think that the Civil War would have prevented, huh? I am not as optomistic. The Fed vs State issue needed to be settled and their were plenty of other issues that would have provoked it, especially abou the economy/
Only other semi major issue was tariffs.
Only real argument against continued British rule for an additional century is the Louisana Purchase would have never occurred .
It all seems so simple..... reality is, every day is an experiment that teaches (or reminds of) lessons for tomorrow.KaiBear said:No slavery, no civil war.FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:If you are over the age of 17, please seek immediate psychiatric care as you make zero sense 90% of the time.ron.reagan said:"By now most of them realize they have been manipulated into this nightmare. "KaiBear said:All true.Sam Lowry said:
With apologies to Jack Bauer...
Russia cannot win
We'll fight to the last Ukrainian
It's a stalemate - YOU ARE HERE
We didn't lose, we killed a lot of Russians
We only lost for lack of resolve
Let's try again, and if you don't agree you're a nazi
Wonder about the curent attitude of Ukranians toward Biden and the Umited States.
By now most of them realize they have been manipulated nto this nightmare.
Tens of thousands of Ukranians are dead. MILLIONS more have been forced to leave their homes and are scattered throughout Europe.
Now Ukranians need US financial suppoert more than ever.
Bitterness is only going to increase.
Coming from the guy willing to prostitute his family in exchange for national security.
You would have fit in a lot better on the UK side of the American revolution.
LOL 'prostitute his family in exchange for national security' Almost as bizarre as your earlier ' all Christians are evil '.
FYI almost 40% of colonists did support England during the American Revolution. Many were murdered, beaten and/or had their property stolen. Tens of thousands went further west to escape persecution.
Thousands of others left the country altogether going to Canada, Europe or the Caribbean.
If France and Spain had not supported the Continental armies with money, guns, uniforms, gunpowder and other supplies, it is highly unlikely England would have lost the war.
One could argue Americans would have been far better off remaining in the British empire for an additional century. At the very least the Civil War would have been averted.
Really? Then the Civil War would have been fought with machine guns, hand grenades, planes and tanks. Death and destruction would have been exponentially worse. It is never better to push off a fight for a later time, killing gets more efficient with time, not less. It was the right time for Colonies to leave, when other powers were able and willing to help. It takes help to break away...
The right answer was to let Ukraine in NATO in 2008. Deterrence through strength works.
1. Slavery was already losing profitability by 1860. As a far cheaper labor source was being developed .
The Irish.
2. The British Empire eliminated slavery throughout their possessions by COMPENSATING the slave owners .
3. Long before your fantasy of a civil war with planes and tanks ( what, no mutant turtles ? ) England would have forced a similar compensation plan on southern slave owners who by that time would have been thrilled to dump their expensive human chattel .
Hey, you are the one dreaming of moving American independence back 100 years The Civil War was being fought no matter what. Moving indepenfence from 1780 to 1880 would not have solved the problems an growing pains the US went through. The show down between the States and Feds was happening, moving it from 1860, even to 1910 would not have changed the culture and the technology, believe it or not including tanks, was more deadly by 1910.
Tactics and trench warfare more brutal. Time does not make situations better, actually the earlier you deal with a problem the better. History has shown over and over, pushing it off equals disaster.
But I know you prefer insulting people to discussing, can change the name but same old Colorado...
Signed Donatello.
British prevail during the American Revolution and slavery ends with compensation rather than 600,00 dead.
Indians are treated more justly and the Mormons wouldn't have needed to flee to the deserts of Utah .
US gains independence peacefully much like Canada, and our unfortunate racial scars would be much reduced.
Much prefer civil discusions than childish exchanges. Regardless, most have an incredably limitted knowledge of US history beyond the palp they are taught in jr high.
World history is rarely taught at all , which is one reason our government constatly makes the same bloody blunders.
Well, it certainly would have avoided the war we see today, and rendered moot some of Nato's constitutional "issues" with admitting Ukraine which has territorial disputes with a neighbor.FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:If you are over the age of 17, please seek immediate psychiatric care as you make zero sense 90% of the time.ron.reagan said:"By now most of them realize they have been manipulated into this nightmare. "KaiBear said:All true.Sam Lowry said:
With apologies to Jack Bauer...
Russia cannot win
We'll fight to the last Ukrainian
It's a stalemate - YOU ARE HERE
We didn't lose, we killed a lot of Russians
We only lost for lack of resolve
Let's try again, and if you don't agree you're a nazi
Wonder about the curent attitude of Ukranians toward Biden and the Umited States.
By now most of them realize they have been manipulated nto this nightmare.
Tens of thousands of Ukranians are dead. MILLIONS more have been forced to leave their homes and are scattered throughout Europe.
Now Ukranians need US financial suppoert more than ever.
Bitterness is only going to increase.
Coming from the guy willing to prostitute his family in exchange for national security.
You would have fit in a lot better on the UK side of the American revolution.
LOL 'prostitute his family in exchange for national security' Almost as bizarre as your earlier ' all Christians are evil '.
FYI almost 40% of colonists did support England during the American Revolution. Many were murdered, beaten and/or had their property stolen. Tens of thousands went further west to escape persecution.
Thousands of others left the country altogether going to Canada, Europe or the Caribbean.
If France and Spain had not supported the Continental armies with money, guns, uniforms, gunpowder and other supplies, it is highly unlikely England would have lost the war.
One could argue Americans would have been far better off remaining in the British empire for an additional century. At the very least the Civil War would have been averted.
Really? Then the Civil War would have been fought with machine guns, hand grenades, planes and tanks. Death and destruction would have been exponentially worse. It is never better to push off a fight for a later time, killing gets more efficient with time, not less. It was the right time for Colonies to leave, when other powers were able and willing to help. It takes help to break away...
The right answer was to let Ukraine in NATO in 2008. Deterrence through strength works.
Perhaps. It could have enriched the pro-slavery lobby in Parliament, too, rendering unworkable the elegant solutions England ultimately took in a relatively small piece of its empire.KaiBear said:FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:If you are over the age of 17, please seek immediate psychiatric care as you make zero sense 90% of the time.ron.reagan said:"By now most of them realize they have been manipulated into this nightmare. "KaiBear said:All true.Sam Lowry said:
With apologies to Jack Bauer...
Russia cannot win
We'll fight to the last Ukrainian
It's a stalemate - YOU ARE HERE
We didn't lose, we killed a lot of Russians
We only lost for lack of resolve
Let's try again, and if you don't agree you're a nazi
Wonder about the curent attitude of Ukranians toward Biden and the Umited States.
By now most of them realize they have been manipulated nto this nightmare.
Tens of thousands of Ukranians are dead. MILLIONS more have been forced to leave their homes and are scattered throughout Europe.
Now Ukranians need US financial suppoert more than ever.
Bitterness is only going to increase.
Coming from the guy willing to prostitute his family in exchange for national security.
You would have fit in a lot better on the UK side of the American revolution.
LOL 'prostitute his family in exchange for national security' Almost as bizarre as your earlier ' all Christians are evil '.
FYI almost 40% of colonists did support England during the American Revolution. Many were murdered, beaten and/or had their property stolen. Tens of thousands went further west to escape persecution.
Thousands of others left the country altogether going to Canada, Europe or the Caribbean.
If France and Spain had not supported the Continental armies with money, guns, uniforms, gunpowder and other supplies, it is highly unlikely England would have lost the war.
One could argue Americans would have been far better off remaining in the British empire for an additional century. At the very least the Civil War would have been averted.
Really? Then the Civil War would have been fought with machine guns, hand grenades, planes and tanks. Death and destruction would have been exponentially worse. It is never better to push off a fight for a later time, killing gets more efficient with time, not less. It was the right time for Colonies to leave, when other powers were able and willing to help. It takes help to break away...
The right answer was to let Ukraine in NATO in 2008. Deterrence through strength works.
1. Slavery was already losing profitability by 1860. As a far cheaper labor source was being developed .
The Irish.
2. The British Empire eliminated slavery throughout their possessions by COMPENSATING the slave owners .
3. Long before your fantasy of a civil war with planes and tanks ( what, no mutant turtles ? ) England would have forced a similar compensation plan on southern slave owners who by that time would have been thrilled to dump their expensive human chattel .
I don't think so. Russia is not now, nor been since the 1980's, been able to take on NATO. This is not the Fulda Gap era.whiterock said:Well, it certainly would have avoided the war we see today, and rendered moot some of Nato's constitutional "issues" with admitting Ukraine which has territorial disputes with a neighbor.FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:If you are over the age of 17, please seek immediate psychiatric care as you make zero sense 90% of the time.ron.reagan said:"By now most of them realize they have been manipulated into this nightmare. "KaiBear said:All true.Sam Lowry said:
With apologies to Jack Bauer...
Russia cannot win
We'll fight to the last Ukrainian
It's a stalemate - YOU ARE HERE
We didn't lose, we killed a lot of Russians
We only lost for lack of resolve
Let's try again, and if you don't agree you're a nazi
Wonder about the curent attitude of Ukranians toward Biden and the Umited States.
By now most of them realize they have been manipulated nto this nightmare.
Tens of thousands of Ukranians are dead. MILLIONS more have been forced to leave their homes and are scattered throughout Europe.
Now Ukranians need US financial suppoert more than ever.
Bitterness is only going to increase.
Coming from the guy willing to prostitute his family in exchange for national security.
You would have fit in a lot better on the UK side of the American revolution.
LOL 'prostitute his family in exchange for national security' Almost as bizarre as your earlier ' all Christians are evil '.
FYI almost 40% of colonists did support England during the American Revolution. Many were murdered, beaten and/or had their property stolen. Tens of thousands went further west to escape persecution.
Thousands of others left the country altogether going to Canada, Europe or the Caribbean.
If France and Spain had not supported the Continental armies with money, guns, uniforms, gunpowder and other supplies, it is highly unlikely England would have lost the war.
One could argue Americans would have been far better off remaining in the British empire for an additional century. At the very least the Civil War would have been averted.
Really? Then the Civil War would have been fought with machine guns, hand grenades, planes and tanks. Death and destruction would have been exponentially worse. It is never better to push off a fight for a later time, killing gets more efficient with time, not less. It was the right time for Colonies to leave, when other powers were able and willing to help. It takes help to break away...
The right answer was to let Ukraine in NATO in 2008. Deterrence through strength works.
But might not it have sown seeds of even worse conflict? A politically unstable Ukraine admitted so early might have prompted not a Euro-Maidan but a Russo-Maidan which would have had far greater odds of direct Nato-Russia conflict? and/or risk collapse of Nato in entirety?
Where are you seeing this intel?sombear said:Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:...and both sides are getting shellacked.....Sam Lowry said:
"Russian forces conducting offensive actions in Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Ukrainian military had 36 combat engagements with Russian forces west to Lyman Pershyy of Kharkiv region, west to Dibroba and east to Vesele of Luhansk region, near Minkivka, south-east to Orikhovo-Vasylivka, south-east to Bohdanivka and near Ivanivske of Donetsk region, Avdiyivka of Donetsk region, near Maryinka and near Krasnohorivka, General Staff of Armed Forces of Ukraine says in the morning report."
FTFY
Virtually all intel has Ukraine making steady progress, winning the skirmishes/battles, and losing a fraction of the soldiers and hardware Russia is. Our corp intel has been consistent on that for weeks.
1. We can discuss that but again...secession was the cause of the war. The Federal Government (in the hands of the Northern States) not allowing secession and using armed force to try and return the Southern States to the Union (its what drove out Virginia and the upland south States out)...is the cause of the war.KaiBear said:Civil War was overwhelmingly about slaves and the economic value they represented.FLBear5630 said:I can agree with the Canada model, although I do wonder what the boundaries would be.KaiBear said:No slavery, no civil war.FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:If you are over the age of 17, please seek immediate psychiatric care as you make zero sense 90% of the time.ron.reagan said:"By now most of them realize they have been manipulated into this nightmare. "KaiBear said:All true.Sam Lowry said:
With apologies to Jack Bauer...
Russia cannot win
We'll fight to the last Ukrainian
It's a stalemate - YOU ARE HERE
We didn't lose, we killed a lot of Russians
We only lost for lack of resolve
Let's try again, and if you don't agree you're a nazi
Wonder about the curent attitude of Ukranians toward Biden and the Umited States.
By now most of them realize they have been manipulated nto this nightmare.
Tens of thousands of Ukranians are dead. MILLIONS more have been forced to leave their homes and are scattered throughout Europe.
Now Ukranians need US financial suppoert more than ever.
Bitterness is only going to increase.
Coming from the guy willing to prostitute his family in exchange for national security.
You would have fit in a lot better on the UK side of the American revolution.
LOL 'prostitute his family in exchange for national security' Almost as bizarre as your earlier ' all Christians are evil '.
FYI almost 40% of colonists did support England during the American Revolution. Many were murdered, beaten and/or had their property stolen. Tens of thousands went further west to escape persecution.
Thousands of others left the country altogether going to Canada, Europe or the Caribbean.
If France and Spain had not supported the Continental armies with money, guns, uniforms, gunpowder and other supplies, it is highly unlikely England would have lost the war.
One could argue Americans would have been far better off remaining in the British empire for an additional century. At the very least the Civil War would have been averted.
Really? Then the Civil War would have been fought with machine guns, hand grenades, planes and tanks. Death and destruction would have been exponentially worse. It is never better to push off a fight for a later time, killing gets more efficient with time, not less. It was the right time for Colonies to leave, when other powers were able and willing to help. It takes help to break away...
The right answer was to let Ukraine in NATO in 2008. Deterrence through strength works.
1. Slavery was already losing profitability by 1860. As a far cheaper labor source was being developed .
The Irish.
2. The British Empire eliminated slavery throughout their possessions by COMPENSATING the slave owners .
3. Long before your fantasy of a civil war with planes and tanks ( what, no mutant turtles ? ) England would have forced a similar compensation plan on southern slave owners who by that time would have been thrilled to dump their expensive human chattel .
Hey, you are the one dreaming of moving American independence back 100 years The Civil War was being fought no matter what. Moving indepenfence from 1780 to 1880 would not have solved the problems an growing pains the US went through. The show down between the States and Feds was happening, moving it from 1860, even to 1910 would not have changed the culture and the technology, believe it or not including tanks, was more deadly by 1910.
Tactics and trench warfare more brutal. Time does not make situations better, actually the earlier you deal with a problem the better. History has shown over and over, pushing it off equals disaster.
But I know you prefer insulting people to discussing, can change the name but same old Colorado...
Signed Donatello.
British prevail during the American Revolution and slavery ends with compensation rather than 600,00 dead.
Indians are treated more justly and the Mormons wouldn't have needed to flee to the deserts of Utah .
US gains independence peacefully much like Canada, and our unfortunate racial scars would be much reduced.
Much prefer civil discusions than childish exchanges. Regardless, most have an incredably limitted knowledge of US history beyond the palp they are taught in jr high.
World history is rarely taught at all , which is one reason our government constatly makes the same bloody blunders.
You really think that the Civil War would have prevented, huh? I am not as optomistic. The Fed vs State issue needed to be settled and their were plenty of other issues that would have provoked it, especially abou the economy/
Only other semi major issue was tariffs.
Only real argument against continued British rule for an additional century is the Louisiana Purchase would have never occurred .
Sam Lowry said:Where are you seeing this intel?sombear said:Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:...and both sides are getting shellacked.....Sam Lowry said:
"Russian forces conducting offensive actions in Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Ukrainian military had 36 combat engagements with Russian forces west to Lyman Pershyy of Kharkiv region, west to Dibroba and east to Vesele of Luhansk region, near Minkivka, south-east to Orikhovo-Vasylivka, south-east to Bohdanivka and near Ivanivske of Donetsk region, Avdiyivka of Donetsk region, near Maryinka and near Krasnohorivka, General Staff of Armed Forces of Ukraine says in the morning report."
FTFY
Virtually all intel has Ukraine making steady progress, winning the skirmishes/battles, and losing a fraction of the soldiers and hardware Russia is. Our corp intel has been consistent on that for weeks.
💪🏻 Ukraine liberated more territory in a month than Russia captured in a year − MI6 Chiefhttps://t.co/84SL7099dn
— Ukrainska Pravda in English (@pravda_eng) July 19, 2023
Right and the right of secession brings us back to the primacy of the Federal over State Governments. The South believed that the State had the right to make the decision of whether or not they belonged to the US. That would have come to a head under a variety of different areas, even if the Revolutionary War was 100 years in the future. That issue HAD to be fought out to be resolved, which it is today.Redbrickbear said:1. We can discuss that but again...secession was the cause of the war. The Federal Government (in the hands of the Northern States) not allowing secession and using armed force to try and return the Southern States to the Union (its what drove out Virginia and the upland south States out)...is the cause of the war.KaiBear said:Civil War was overwhelmingly about slaves and the economic value they represented.FLBear5630 said:I can agree with the Canada model, although I do wonder what the boundaries would be.KaiBear said:No slavery, no civil war.FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:If you are over the age of 17, please seek immediate psychiatric care as you make zero sense 90% of the time.ron.reagan said:"By now most of them realize they have been manipulated into this nightmare. "KaiBear said:All true.Sam Lowry said:
With apologies to Jack Bauer...
Russia cannot win
We'll fight to the last Ukrainian
It's a stalemate - YOU ARE HERE
We didn't lose, we killed a lot of Russians
We only lost for lack of resolve
Let's try again, and if you don't agree you're a nazi
Wonder about the curent attitude of Ukranians toward Biden and the Umited States.
By now most of them realize they have been manipulated nto this nightmare.
Tens of thousands of Ukranians are dead. MILLIONS more have been forced to leave their homes and are scattered throughout Europe.
Now Ukranians need US financial suppoert more than ever.
Bitterness is only going to increase.
Coming from the guy willing to prostitute his family in exchange for national security.
You would have fit in a lot better on the UK side of the American revolution.
LOL 'prostitute his family in exchange for national security' Almost as bizarre as your earlier ' all Christians are evil '.
FYI almost 40% of colonists did support England during the American Revolution. Many were murdered, beaten and/or had their property stolen. Tens of thousands went further west to escape persecution.
Thousands of others left the country altogether going to Canada, Europe or the Caribbean.
If France and Spain had not supported the Continental armies with money, guns, uniforms, gunpowder and other supplies, it is highly unlikely England would have lost the war.
One could argue Americans would have been far better off remaining in the British empire for an additional century. At the very least the Civil War would have been averted.
Really? Then the Civil War would have been fought with machine guns, hand grenades, planes and tanks. Death and destruction would have been exponentially worse. It is never better to push off a fight for a later time, killing gets more efficient with time, not less. It was the right time for Colonies to leave, when other powers were able and willing to help. It takes help to break away...
The right answer was to let Ukraine in NATO in 2008. Deterrence through strength works.
1. Slavery was already losing profitability by 1860. As a far cheaper labor source was being developed .
The Irish.
2. The British Empire eliminated slavery throughout their possessions by COMPENSATING the slave owners .
3. Long before your fantasy of a civil war with planes and tanks ( what, no mutant turtles ? ) England would have forced a similar compensation plan on southern slave owners who by that time would have been thrilled to dump their expensive human chattel .
Hey, you are the one dreaming of moving American independence back 100 years The Civil War was being fought no matter what. Moving indepenfence from 1780 to 1880 would not have solved the problems an growing pains the US went through. The show down between the States and Feds was happening, moving it from 1860, even to 1910 would not have changed the culture and the technology, believe it or not including tanks, was more deadly by 1910.
Tactics and trench warfare more brutal. Time does not make situations better, actually the earlier you deal with a problem the better. History has shown over and over, pushing it off equals disaster.
But I know you prefer insulting people to discussing, can change the name but same old Colorado...
Signed Donatello.
British prevail during the American Revolution and slavery ends with compensation rather than 600,00 dead.
Indians are treated more justly and the Mormons wouldn't have needed to flee to the deserts of Utah .
US gains independence peacefully much like Canada, and our unfortunate racial scars would be much reduced.
Much prefer civil discusions than childish exchanges. Regardless, most have an incredably limitted knowledge of US history beyond the palp they are taught in jr high.
World history is rarely taught at all , which is one reason our government constatly makes the same bloody blunders.
You really think that the Civil War would have prevented, huh? I am not as optomistic. The Fed vs State issue needed to be settled and their were plenty of other issues that would have provoked it, especially abou the economy/
Only other semi major issue was tariffs.
Only real argument against continued British rule for an additional century is the Louisiana Purchase would have never occurred .
Slavery as the "cause of the war" is just not accurate. Slavery as "cause of secession" would be more closer to the truth.
2. American backwoods men were already pouring over the mountains and heading into the Ohio Valley and the rest of the backcountry South. Britain was going to have near impossible time keeping them out of the lands east...revolutionary war or no war. And I think its pretty obvious that by the French Revolution and the rise of Napoleon that the British government would come around to the idea of buying the Louisiana purchase lands....or just out right taking them from the French without compensation.
Britain of course fought France starting in 1793 and did not stop until the down fall of Napoleon in 1815.
They took any colonies and land from France they could....it seems impossible to imagine they would not have taken New Orleans and the eastern lands....especially since vast numbers of English speaking immigrants would have been pouring into these lands.
I don't see any scenario where British North American does not reach the great plains by the 1820s
FLBear5630 said:Right and the right of secession brings us back to the primacy of the Federal over State Governments. The South believed that the State had the right to make the decision of whether or not they belonged to the US. That would have come to a head under a variety of different areas, even if the Revolutionary War was 100 years in the future. That issue HAD to be fought out to be resolved, which it is today.Redbrickbear said:1. We can discuss that but again...secession was the cause of the war. The Federal Government (in the hands of the Northern States) not allowing secession and using armed force to try and return the Southern States to the Union (its what drove out Virginia and the upland south States out)...is the cause of the war.KaiBear said:Civil War was overwhelmingly about slaves and the economic value they represented.FLBear5630 said:I can agree with the Canada model, although I do wonder what the boundaries would be.KaiBear said:No slavery, no civil war.FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:If you are over the age of 17, please seek immediate psychiatric care as you make zero sense 90% of the time.ron.reagan said:"By now most of them realize they have been manipulated into this nightmare. "KaiBear said:All true.Sam Lowry said:
With apologies to Jack Bauer...
Russia cannot win
We'll fight to the last Ukrainian
It's a stalemate - YOU ARE HERE
We didn't lose, we killed a lot of Russians
We only lost for lack of resolve
Let's try again, and if you don't agree you're a nazi
Wonder about the curent attitude of Ukranians toward Biden and the Umited States.
By now most of them realize they have been manipulated nto this nightmare.
Tens of thousands of Ukranians are dead. MILLIONS more have been forced to leave their homes and are scattered throughout Europe.
Now Ukranians need US financial suppoert more than ever.
Bitterness is only going to increase.
Coming from the guy willing to prostitute his family in exchange for national security.
You would have fit in a lot better on the UK side of the American revolution.
LOL 'prostitute his family in exchange for national security' Almost as bizarre as your earlier ' all Christians are evil '.
FYI almost 40% of colonists did support England during the American Revolution. Many were murdered, beaten and/or had their property stolen. Tens of thousands went further west to escape persecution.
Thousands of others left the country altogether going to Canada, Europe or the Caribbean.
If France and Spain had not supported the Continental armies with money, guns, uniforms, gunpowder and other supplies, it is highly unlikely England would have lost the war.
One could argue Americans would have been far better off remaining in the British empire for an additional century. At the very least the Civil War would have been averted.
Really? Then the Civil War would have been fought with machine guns, hand grenades, planes and tanks. Death and destruction would have been exponentially worse. It is never better to push off a fight for a later time, killing gets more efficient with time, not less. It was the right time for Colonies to leave, when other powers were able and willing to help. It takes help to break away...
The right answer was to let Ukraine in NATO in 2008. Deterrence through strength works.
1. Slavery was already losing profitability by 1860. As a far cheaper labor source was being developed .
The Irish.
2. The British Empire eliminated slavery throughout their possessions by COMPENSATING the slave owners .
3. Long before your fantasy of a civil war with planes and tanks ( what, no mutant turtles ? ) England would have forced a similar compensation plan on southern slave owners who by that time would have been thrilled to dump their expensive human chattel .
Hey, you are the one dreaming of moving American independence back 100 years The Civil War was being fought no matter what. Moving indepenfence from 1780 to 1880 would not have solved the problems an growing pains the US went through. The show down between the States and Feds was happening, moving it from 1860, even to 1910 would not have changed the culture and the technology, believe it or not including tanks, was more deadly by 1910.
Tactics and trench warfare more brutal. Time does not make situations better, actually the earlier you deal with a problem the better. History has shown over and over, pushing it off equals disaster.
But I know you prefer insulting people to discussing, can change the name but same old Colorado...
Signed Donatello.
British prevail during the American Revolution and slavery ends with compensation rather than 600,00 dead.
Indians are treated more justly and the Mormons wouldn't have needed to flee to the deserts of Utah .
US gains independence peacefully much like Canada, and our unfortunate racial scars would be much reduced.
Much prefer civil discusions than childish exchanges. Regardless, most have an incredably limitted knowledge of US history beyond the palp they are taught in jr high.
World history is rarely taught at all , which is one reason our government constatly makes the same bloody blunders.
You really think that the Civil War would have prevented, huh? I am not as optomistic. The Fed vs State issue needed to be settled and their were plenty of other issues that would have provoked it, especially abou the economy/
Only other semi major issue was tariffs.
Only real argument against continued British rule for an additional century is the Louisiana Purchase would have never occurred .
Slavery as the "cause of the war" is just not accurate. Slavery as "cause of secession" would be more closer to the truth.
2. American backwoods men were already pouring over the mountains and heading into the Ohio Valley and the rest of the backcountry South. Britain was going to have near impossible time keeping them out of the lands east...revolutionary war or no war. And I think its pretty obvious that by the French Revolution and the rise of Napoleon that the British government would come around to the idea of buying the Louisiana purchase lands....or just out right taking them from the French without compensation.
Britain of course fought France starting in 1793 and did not stop until the down fall of Napoleon in 1815.
They took any colonies and land from France they could....it seems impossible to imagine they would not have taken New Orleans and the eastern lands....especially since vast numbers of English speaking immigrants would have been pouring into these lands.
I don't see any scenario where British North American does not reach the great plains by the 1820s
Any non-Western sources?sombear said:Sam Lowry said:Where are you seeing this intel?sombear said:Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:...and both sides are getting shellacked.....Sam Lowry said:
"Russian forces conducting offensive actions in Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Ukrainian military had 36 combat engagements with Russian forces west to Lyman Pershyy of Kharkiv region, west to Dibroba and east to Vesele of Luhansk region, near Minkivka, south-east to Orikhovo-Vasylivka, south-east to Bohdanivka and near Ivanivske of Donetsk region, Avdiyivka of Donetsk region, near Maryinka and near Krasnohorivka, General Staff of Armed Forces of Ukraine says in the morning report."
FTFY
Virtually all intel has Ukraine making steady progress, winning the skirmishes/battles, and losing a fraction of the soldiers and hardware Russia is. Our corp intel has been consistent on that for weeks.
International intel has been widely reported. Below is just one example from yesterday. I also review weekly corporate briefings that unfortunately, I cannot share. The reports definitely are not all positive, but they've consistently shown steady progress. Again, I emphasize that can change anytime, and it obviously does not guarantee victory as we define it.💪🏻 Ukraine liberated more territory in a month than Russia captured in a year − MI6 Chiefhttps://t.co/84SL7099dn
— Ukrainska Pravda in English (@pravda_eng) July 19, 2023
If you are ever in Savannah there is a great historic trip between the Federal Fort and the State Fort. The programs are different and really worth seeing, giving the perspective from the Federal/Northern view and the Southern/Confederate view. Really well done, both of them.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Right and the right of secession brings us back to the primacy of the Federal over State Governments. The South believed that the State had the right to make the decision of whether or not they belonged to the US. That would have come to a head under a variety of different areas, even if the Revolutionary War was 100 years in the future. That issue HAD to be fought out to be resolved, which it is today.Redbrickbear said:1. We can discuss that but again...secession was the cause of the war. The Federal Government (in the hands of the Northern States) not allowing secession and using armed force to try and return the Southern States to the Union (its what drove out Virginia and the upland south States out)...is the cause of the war.KaiBear said:Civil War was overwhelmingly about slaves and the economic value they represented.FLBear5630 said:I can agree with the Canada model, although I do wonder what the boundaries would be.KaiBear said:No slavery, no civil war.FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:If you are over the age of 17, please seek immediate psychiatric care as you make zero sense 90% of the time.ron.reagan said:"By now most of them realize they have been manipulated into this nightmare. "KaiBear said:All true.Sam Lowry said:
With apologies to Jack Bauer...
Russia cannot win
We'll fight to the last Ukrainian
It's a stalemate - YOU ARE HERE
We didn't lose, we killed a lot of Russians
We only lost for lack of resolve
Let's try again, and if you don't agree you're a nazi
Wonder about the curent attitude of Ukranians toward Biden and the Umited States.
By now most of them realize they have been manipulated nto this nightmare.
Tens of thousands of Ukranians are dead. MILLIONS more have been forced to leave their homes and are scattered throughout Europe.
Now Ukranians need US financial suppoert more than ever.
Bitterness is only going to increase.
Coming from the guy willing to prostitute his family in exchange for national security.
You would have fit in a lot better on the UK side of the American revolution.
LOL 'prostitute his family in exchange for national security' Almost as bizarre as your earlier ' all Christians are evil '.
FYI almost 40% of colonists did support England during the American Revolution. Many were murdered, beaten and/or had their property stolen. Tens of thousands went further west to escape persecution.
Thousands of others left the country altogether going to Canada, Europe or the Caribbean.
If France and Spain had not supported the Continental armies with money, guns, uniforms, gunpowder and other supplies, it is highly unlikely England would have lost the war.
One could argue Americans would have been far better off remaining in the British empire for an additional century. At the very least the Civil War would have been averted.
Really? Then the Civil War would have been fought with machine guns, hand grenades, planes and tanks. Death and destruction would have been exponentially worse. It is never better to push off a fight for a later time, killing gets more efficient with time, not less. It was the right time for Colonies to leave, when other powers were able and willing to help. It takes help to break away...
The right answer was to let Ukraine in NATO in 2008. Deterrence through strength works.
1. Slavery was already losing profitability by 1860. As a far cheaper labor source was being developed .
The Irish.
2. The British Empire eliminated slavery throughout their possessions by COMPENSATING the slave owners .
3. Long before your fantasy of a civil war with planes and tanks ( what, no mutant turtles ? ) England would have forced a similar compensation plan on southern slave owners who by that time would have been thrilled to dump their expensive human chattel .
Hey, you are the one dreaming of moving American independence back 100 years The Civil War was being fought no matter what. Moving indepenfence from 1780 to 1880 would not have solved the problems an growing pains the US went through. The show down between the States and Feds was happening, moving it from 1860, even to 1910 would not have changed the culture and the technology, believe it or not including tanks, was more deadly by 1910.
Tactics and trench warfare more brutal. Time does not make situations better, actually the earlier you deal with a problem the better. History has shown over and over, pushing it off equals disaster.
But I know you prefer insulting people to discussing, can change the name but same old Colorado...
Signed Donatello.
British prevail during the American Revolution and slavery ends with compensation rather than 600,00 dead.
Indians are treated more justly and the Mormons wouldn't have needed to flee to the deserts of Utah .
US gains independence peacefully much like Canada, and our unfortunate racial scars would be much reduced.
Much prefer civil discusions than childish exchanges. Regardless, most have an incredably limitted knowledge of US history beyond the palp they are taught in jr high.
World history is rarely taught at all , which is one reason our government constatly makes the same bloody blunders.
You really think that the Civil War would have prevented, huh? I am not as optomistic. The Fed vs State issue needed to be settled and their were plenty of other issues that would have provoked it, especially abou the economy/
Only other semi major issue was tariffs.
Only real argument against continued British rule for an additional century is the Louisiana Purchase would have never occurred .
Slavery as the "cause of the war" is just not accurate. Slavery as "cause of secession" would be more closer to the truth.
2. American backwoods men were already pouring over the mountains and heading into the Ohio Valley and the rest of the backcountry South. Britain was going to have near impossible time keeping them out of the lands east...revolutionary war or no war. And I think its pretty obvious that by the French Revolution and the rise of Napoleon that the British government would come around to the idea of buying the Louisiana purchase lands....or just out right taking them from the French without compensation.
Britain of course fought France starting in 1793 and did not stop until the down fall of Napoleon in 1815.
They took any colonies and land from France they could....it seems impossible to imagine they would not have taken New Orleans and the eastern lands....especially since vast numbers of English speaking immigrants would have been pouring into these lands.
I don't see any scenario where British North American does not reach the great plains by the 1820s
Probably true.
I think modern Historians leave out this or down play it considerably...and the cultural issue as well. Because it makes them uncomfortable or they just can't relate to these issues. So they emphasize the slavery issue. They are more comfortable on that ground.
[Basil Gildersleeve, still known today as the greatest American classical scholar of all time, was a Confederate soldier from Charleston, South Carolina. He sums it up nicely in The Creed of the Old South, published after the war: "All that I vouch for is the feeling; . . . there was no lurking suspicion of any moral weakness in our cause. No feeling that slavery was of much importance to it. Nothing could be holier than the cause, nothing more imperative than the duty of upholding it. There were those in the South who, when they saw the issue of the war, gave up their faith in God, but not their faith in the cause."]
"Before there was any New England in the North, there was something very like Old England in the South. Relatively speaking, there is still..." -G. K. Chesterton
"Secession may have been wrong in the abstract, and now has been tried and settled by the arbitrament of the sword and bayonet, but I am as firm in my convictions today of the right of secession as I was in 1861. The South is our country, the North is the country of those who live there. We are an agricultural people; they are a manufacturing people. They are the descendants of the old Puritan Plymouth Rock stock, and we of the South from the proud and aristocratic Cavaliers and hard fighting Scot [Ulster Scots]. We believe in the doctrine of State Rights, they in the doctrine of centralization. We had as every much right to leave this Union as we did to enter it in the first place." ~ Private Sam Watkins, CSA
Sam Lowry said:Any non-Western sources?sombear said:Sam Lowry said:Where are you seeing this intel?sombear said:Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:...and both sides are getting shellacked.....Sam Lowry said:
"Russian forces conducting offensive actions in Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Ukrainian military had 36 combat engagements with Russian forces west to Lyman Pershyy of Kharkiv region, west to Dibroba and east to Vesele of Luhansk region, near Minkivka, south-east to Orikhovo-Vasylivka, south-east to Bohdanivka and near Ivanivske of Donetsk region, Avdiyivka of Donetsk region, near Maryinka and near Krasnohorivka, General Staff of Armed Forces of Ukraine says in the morning report."
FTFY
Virtually all intel has Ukraine making steady progress, winning the skirmishes/battles, and losing a fraction of the soldiers and hardware Russia is. Our corp intel has been consistent on that for weeks.
International intel has been widely reported. Below is just one example from yesterday. I also review weekly corporate briefings that unfortunately, I cannot share. The reports definitely are not all positive, but they've consistently shown steady progress. Again, I emphasize that can change anytime, and it obviously does not guarantee victory as we define it.💪🏻 Ukraine liberated more territory in a month than Russia captured in a year − MI6 Chiefhttps://t.co/84SL7099dn
— Ukrainska Pravda in English (@pravda_eng) July 19, 2023
FLBear5630 said:If you are ever in Savannah there is a great historic trip between the Federal Fort and the State Fort. The programs are different and really worth seeing, giving the perspective from the Federal/Northern view and the Southern/Confederate view. Really well done, both of them.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Right and the right of secession brings us back to the primacy of the Federal over State Governments. The South believed that the State had the right to make the decision of whether or not they belonged to the US. That would have come to a head under a variety of different areas, even if the Revolutionary War was 100 years in the future. That issue HAD to be fought out to be resolved, which it is today.Redbrickbear said:1. We can discuss that but again...secession was the cause of the war. The Federal Government (in the hands of the Northern States) not allowing secession and using armed force to try and return the Southern States to the Union (its what drove out Virginia and the upland south States out)...is the cause of the war.KaiBear said:Civil War was overwhelmingly about slaves and the economic value they represented.FLBear5630 said:I can agree with the Canada model, although I do wonder what the boundaries would be.KaiBear said:No slavery, no civil war.FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:If you are over the age of 17, please seek immediate psychiatric care as you make zero sense 90% of the time.ron.reagan said:"By now most of them realize they have been manipulated into this nightmare. "KaiBear said:All true.Sam Lowry said:
With apologies to Jack Bauer...
Russia cannot win
We'll fight to the last Ukrainian
It's a stalemate - YOU ARE HERE
We didn't lose, we killed a lot of Russians
We only lost for lack of resolve
Let's try again, and if you don't agree you're a nazi
Wonder about the curent attitude of Ukranians toward Biden and the Umited States.
By now most of them realize they have been manipulated nto this nightmare.
Tens of thousands of Ukranians are dead. MILLIONS more have been forced to leave their homes and are scattered throughout Europe.
Now Ukranians need US financial suppoert more than ever.
Bitterness is only going to increase.
Coming from the guy willing to prostitute his family in exchange for national security.
You would have fit in a lot better on the UK side of the American revolution.
LOL 'prostitute his family in exchange for national security' Almost as bizarre as your earlier ' all Christians are evil '.
FYI almost 40% of colonists did support England during the American Revolution. Many were murdered, beaten and/or had their property stolen. Tens of thousands went further west to escape persecution.
Thousands of others left the country altogether going to Canada, Europe or the Caribbean.
If France and Spain had not supported the Continental armies with money, guns, uniforms, gunpowder and other supplies, it is highly unlikely England would have lost the war.
One could argue Americans would have been far better off remaining in the British empire for an additional century. At the very least the Civil War would have been averted.
Really? Then the Civil War would have been fought with machine guns, hand grenades, planes and tanks. Death and destruction would have been exponentially worse. It is never better to push off a fight for a later time, killing gets more efficient with time, not less. It was the right time for Colonies to leave, when other powers were able and willing to help. It takes help to break away...
The right answer was to let Ukraine in NATO in 2008. Deterrence through strength works.
1. Slavery was already losing profitability by 1860. As a far cheaper labor source was being developed .
The Irish.
2. The British Empire eliminated slavery throughout their possessions by COMPENSATING the slave owners .
3. Long before your fantasy of a civil war with planes and tanks ( what, no mutant turtles ? ) England would have forced a similar compensation plan on southern slave owners who by that time would have been thrilled to dump their expensive human chattel .
Hey, you are the one dreaming of moving American independence back 100 years The Civil War was being fought no matter what. Moving indepenfence from 1780 to 1880 would not have solved the problems an growing pains the US went through. The show down between the States and Feds was happening, moving it from 1860, even to 1910 would not have changed the culture and the technology, believe it or not including tanks, was more deadly by 1910.
Tactics and trench warfare more brutal. Time does not make situations better, actually the earlier you deal with a problem the better. History has shown over and over, pushing it off equals disaster.
But I know you prefer insulting people to discussing, can change the name but same old Colorado...
Signed Donatello.
British prevail during the American Revolution and slavery ends with compensation rather than 600,00 dead.
Indians are treated more justly and the Mormons wouldn't have needed to flee to the deserts of Utah .
US gains independence peacefully much like Canada, and our unfortunate racial scars would be much reduced.
Much prefer civil discusions than childish exchanges. Regardless, most have an incredably limitted knowledge of US history beyond the palp they are taught in jr high.
World history is rarely taught at all , which is one reason our government constatly makes the same bloody blunders.
You really think that the Civil War would have prevented, huh? I am not as optomistic. The Fed vs State issue needed to be settled and their were plenty of other issues that would have provoked it, especially abou the economy/
Only other semi major issue was tariffs.
Only real argument against continued British rule for an additional century is the Louisiana Purchase would have never occurred .
Slavery as the "cause of the war" is just not accurate. Slavery as "cause of secession" would be more closer to the truth.
2. American backwoods men were already pouring over the mountains and heading into the Ohio Valley and the rest of the backcountry South. Britain was going to have near impossible time keeping them out of the lands east...revolutionary war or no war. And I think its pretty obvious that by the French Revolution and the rise of Napoleon that the British government would come around to the idea of buying the Louisiana purchase lands....or just out right taking them from the French without compensation.
Britain of course fought France starting in 1793 and did not stop until the down fall of Napoleon in 1815.
They took any colonies and land from France they could....it seems impossible to imagine they would not have taken New Orleans and the eastern lands....especially since vast numbers of English speaking immigrants would have been pouring into these lands.
I don't see any scenario where British North American does not reach the great plains by the 1820s
Probably true.
I think modern Historians leave out this or down play it considerably...and the cultural issue as well. Because it makes them uncomfortable or they just can't relate to these issues. So they emphasize the slavery issue. They are more comfortable on that ground.
[Basil Gildersleeve, still known today as the greatest American classical scholar of all time, was a Confederate soldier from Charleston, South Carolina. He sums it up nicely in The Creed of the Old South, published after the war: "All that I vouch for is the feeling; . . . there was no lurking suspicion of any moral weakness in our cause. No feeling that slavery was of much importance to it. Nothing could be holier than the cause, nothing more imperative than the duty of upholding it. There were those in the South who, when they saw the issue of the war, gave up their faith in God, but not their faith in the cause."]
"Before there was any New England in the North, there was something very like Old England in the South. Relatively speaking, there is still..." -G. K. Chesterton
"Secession may have been wrong in the abstract, and now has been tried and settled by the arbitrament of the sword and bayonet, but I am as firm in my convictions today of the right of secession as I was in 1861. The South is our country, the North is the country of those who live there. We are an agricultural people; they are a manufacturing people. They are the descendants of the old Puritan Plymouth Rock stock, and we of the South from the proud and aristocratic Cavaliers and hard fighting Scot [Ulster Scots]. We believe in the doctrine of State Rights, they in the doctrine of centralization. We had as every much right to leave this Union as we did to enter it in the first place." ~ Private Sam Watkins, CSA
https://www.savannah.com/old-fort-jackson/
https://www.nps.gov/fopu/index.htm
It is one of the best weekend Cities. They have an open container law for the Downtown. You can't leave a drink without getting a Red Solo Cup to take it with you. It is really neat to do Charleston and then Savannah.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:If you are ever in Savannah there is a great historic trip between the Federal Fort and the State Fort. The programs are different and really worth seeing, giving the perspective from the Federal/Northern view and the Southern/Confederate view. Really well done, both of them.Redbrickbear said:FLBear5630 said:Right and the right of secession brings us back to the primacy of the Federal over State Governments. The South believed that the State had the right to make the decision of whether or not they belonged to the US. That would have come to a head under a variety of different areas, even if the Revolutionary War was 100 years in the future. That issue HAD to be fought out to be resolved, which it is today.Redbrickbear said:1. We can discuss that but again...secession was the cause of the war. The Federal Government (in the hands of the Northern States) not allowing secession and using armed force to try and return the Southern States to the Union (its what drove out Virginia and the upland south States out)...is the cause of the war.KaiBear said:Civil War was overwhelmingly about slaves and the economic value they represented.FLBear5630 said:I can agree with the Canada model, although I do wonder what the boundaries would be.KaiBear said:No slavery, no civil war.FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:FLBear5630 said:KaiBear said:If you are over the age of 17, please seek immediate psychiatric care as you make zero sense 90% of the time.ron.reagan said:"By now most of them realize they have been manipulated into this nightmare. "KaiBear said:All true.Sam Lowry said:
With apologies to Jack Bauer...
Russia cannot win
We'll fight to the last Ukrainian
It's a stalemate - YOU ARE HERE
We didn't lose, we killed a lot of Russians
We only lost for lack of resolve
Let's try again, and if you don't agree you're a nazi
Wonder about the curent attitude of Ukranians toward Biden and the Umited States.
By now most of them realize they have been manipulated nto this nightmare.
Tens of thousands of Ukranians are dead. MILLIONS more have been forced to leave their homes and are scattered throughout Europe.
Now Ukranians need US financial suppoert more than ever.
Bitterness is only going to increase.
Coming from the guy willing to prostitute his family in exchange for national security.
You would have fit in a lot better on the UK side of the American revolution.
LOL 'prostitute his family in exchange for national security' Almost as bizarre as your earlier ' all Christians are evil '.
FYI almost 40% of colonists did support England during the American Revolution. Many were murdered, beaten and/or had their property stolen. Tens of thousands went further west to escape persecution.
Thousands of others left the country altogether going to Canada, Europe or the Caribbean.
If France and Spain had not supported the Continental armies with money, guns, uniforms, gunpowder and other supplies, it is highly unlikely England would have lost the war.
One could argue Americans would have been far better off remaining in the British empire for an additional century. At the very least the Civil War would have been averted.
Really? Then the Civil War would have been fought with machine guns, hand grenades, planes and tanks. Death and destruction would have been exponentially worse. It is never better to push off a fight for a later time, killing gets more efficient with time, not less. It was the right time for Colonies to leave, when other powers were able and willing to help. It takes help to break away...
The right answer was to let Ukraine in NATO in 2008. Deterrence through strength works.
1. Slavery was already losing profitability by 1860. As a far cheaper labor source was being developed .
The Irish.
2. The British Empire eliminated slavery throughout their possessions by COMPENSATING the slave owners .
3. Long before your fantasy of a civil war with planes and tanks ( what, no mutant turtles ? ) England would have forced a similar compensation plan on southern slave owners who by that time would have been thrilled to dump their expensive human chattel .
Hey, you are the one dreaming of moving American independence back 100 years The Civil War was being fought no matter what. Moving indepenfence from 1780 to 1880 would not have solved the problems an growing pains the US went through. The show down between the States and Feds was happening, moving it from 1860, even to 1910 would not have changed the culture and the technology, believe it or not including tanks, was more deadly by 1910.
Tactics and trench warfare more brutal. Time does not make situations better, actually the earlier you deal with a problem the better. History has shown over and over, pushing it off equals disaster.
But I know you prefer insulting people to discussing, can change the name but same old Colorado...
Signed Donatello.
British prevail during the American Revolution and slavery ends with compensation rather than 600,00 dead.
Indians are treated more justly and the Mormons wouldn't have needed to flee to the deserts of Utah .
US gains independence peacefully much like Canada, and our unfortunate racial scars would be much reduced.
Much prefer civil discusions than childish exchanges. Regardless, most have an incredably limitted knowledge of US history beyond the palp they are taught in jr high.
World history is rarely taught at all , which is one reason our government constatly makes the same bloody blunders.
You really think that the Civil War would have prevented, huh? I am not as optomistic. The Fed vs State issue needed to be settled and their were plenty of other issues that would have provoked it, especially abou the economy/
Only other semi major issue was tariffs.
Only real argument against continued British rule for an additional century is the Louisiana Purchase would have never occurred .
Slavery as the "cause of the war" is just not accurate. Slavery as "cause of secession" would be more closer to the truth.
2. American backwoods men were already pouring over the mountains and heading into the Ohio Valley and the rest of the backcountry South. Britain was going to have near impossible time keeping them out of the lands east...revolutionary war or no war. And I think its pretty obvious that by the French Revolution and the rise of Napoleon that the British government would come around to the idea of buying the Louisiana purchase lands....or just out right taking them from the French without compensation.
Britain of course fought France starting in 1793 and did not stop until the down fall of Napoleon in 1815.
They took any colonies and land from France they could....it seems impossible to imagine they would not have taken New Orleans and the eastern lands....especially since vast numbers of English speaking immigrants would have been pouring into these lands.
I don't see any scenario where British North American does not reach the great plains by the 1820s
Probably true.
I think modern Historians leave out this or down play it considerably...and the cultural issue as well. Because it makes them uncomfortable or they just can't relate to these issues. So they emphasize the slavery issue. They are more comfortable on that ground.
[Basil Gildersleeve, still known today as the greatest American classical scholar of all time, was a Confederate soldier from Charleston, South Carolina. He sums it up nicely in The Creed of the Old South, published after the war: "All that I vouch for is the feeling; . . . there was no lurking suspicion of any moral weakness in our cause. No feeling that slavery was of much importance to it. Nothing could be holier than the cause, nothing more imperative than the duty of upholding it. There were those in the South who, when they saw the issue of the war, gave up their faith in God, but not their faith in the cause."]
"Before there was any New England in the North, there was something very like Old England in the South. Relatively speaking, there is still..." -G. K. Chesterton
"Secession may have been wrong in the abstract, and now has been tried and settled by the arbitrament of the sword and bayonet, but I am as firm in my convictions today of the right of secession as I was in 1861. The South is our country, the North is the country of those who live there. We are an agricultural people; they are a manufacturing people. They are the descendants of the old Puritan Plymouth Rock stock, and we of the South from the proud and aristocratic Cavaliers and hard fighting Scot [Ulster Scots]. We believe in the doctrine of State Rights, they in the doctrine of centralization. We had as every much right to leave this Union as we did to enter it in the first place." ~ Private Sam Watkins, CSA
https://www.savannah.com/old-fort-jackson/
https://www.nps.gov/fopu/index.htm
Man I stopped in Savannah for lunch one time one a beach trip to the Jacksonville Florida area. We did like 2hrs in town....I wish I had longer to spend there.
I will have to get back there one day.
I would have to disagree with that. Neither Western nor Russian sources are showing significant progress in terms of territory. If anything the Russians seem to have the initiative around Kupiansk. The southern flank of Bakhmut, around Klishchiivka, was hotly contested in the last 48 hours but now appears to be back in Russian hands. There's been even less change in the Zaporizhzhia and Kherson regions.sombear said:Sam Lowry said:Any non-Western sources?sombear said:Sam Lowry said:Where are you seeing this intel?sombear said:Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:...and both sides are getting shellacked.....Sam Lowry said:
"Russian forces conducting offensive actions in Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Ukrainian military had 36 combat engagements with Russian forces west to Lyman Pershyy of Kharkiv region, west to Dibroba and east to Vesele of Luhansk region, near Minkivka, south-east to Orikhovo-Vasylivka, south-east to Bohdanivka and near Ivanivske of Donetsk region, Avdiyivka of Donetsk region, near Maryinka and near Krasnohorivka, General Staff of Armed Forces of Ukraine says in the morning report."
FTFY
Virtually all intel has Ukraine making steady progress, winning the skirmishes/battles, and losing a fraction of the soldiers and hardware Russia is. Our corp intel has been consistent on that for weeks.
International intel has been widely reported. Below is just one example from yesterday. I also review weekly corporate briefings that unfortunately, I cannot share. The reports definitely are not all positive, but they've consistently shown steady progress. Again, I emphasize that can change anytime, and it obviously does not guarantee victory as we define it.💪🏻 Ukraine liberated more territory in a month than Russia captured in a year − MI6 Chiefhttps://t.co/84SL7099dn
— Ukrainska Pravda in English (@pravda_eng) July 19, 2023
It's basically only western intel that reports, although even reports out of Russia don't deny Ukraine progress. They just emphasize the slow more than the steady which is understandable. But not even Putin can deny satellites showing control lines.
I don't hear many people interpreting Rybar that way. They definitely sounded the alarm on Bakhmut this week (see my post above), but as usual nothing came of it. Other maps, like the pro-Ukrainian DeepState, aren't much different.HuMcK said:
Rybar (a pro-Russian source) reports the same thing that Sombear is talking about, and their analysis routinely gets folded into other outlets' reporting. Rybar has actually been posting warnings about Russian forces getting worn down for a few weeks now, but its hard to discern how real or consequential that is. ISW is western but they only report what they can verify, so they are pretty trustworthy, and they show the same things.
It's a slog. Ukraine is making gains, and they are slow and painful, but they also don't seem to have committed the main bulk of their reserves yet either for whatever reason. At current pace it is unlikely that they will reach their strategic goals anytime soon (i.e. in the next month or so), but they are also hitting Russian logistics behind the front very hard right now.
Making predictions in a war is a fool's errand. We all saw how quickly the lines in Karkhiv and Kherson started moving, after drawn out periods of static engagement. Russia is a lot more dug in for this one, so I don't expect that to happen again, but nobody really expected it the first time either. The key takeaway for right now is both fighters are still standing and throwing punches, but Russia has shown more signs of buckling so far. Doesn't mean they will, but having to fend off a mutiny and explain a marked disparity in casualties (not in Russia's favor) is never a good sign.
You say you disagree, which is fine, but your details don't actually disagree. I have not characterized Ukraine's progress as "significant" (or not), nor have I said yesterday's UK report was apples to apples with your baseline on hardware, weapons, etc. I am simply referencing public and non-public info showing that Ukraine continues to gain ground, which, again, anyone can see in satellite data.Sam Lowry said:I would have to disagree with that. Neither Western nor Russian sources are showing significant progress in terms of territory. If anything the Russians seem to have the initiative around Kupiansk. The southern flank of Bakhmut, around Klischiivka, was hotly contested in the last 48 hours but now appears to be back in Russian hands. There's been even less change in the south.sombear said:Sam Lowry said:Any non-Western sources?sombear said:Sam Lowry said:Where are you seeing this intel?sombear said:Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:...and both sides are getting shellacked.....Sam Lowry said:
"Russian forces conducting offensive actions in Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Ukrainian military had 36 combat engagements with Russian forces west to Lyman Pershyy of Kharkiv region, west to Dibroba and east to Vesele of Luhansk region, near Minkivka, south-east to Orikhovo-Vasylivka, south-east to Bohdanivka and near Ivanivske of Donetsk region, Avdiyivka of Donetsk region, near Maryinka and near Krasnohorivka, General Staff of Armed Forces of Ukraine says in the morning report."
FTFY
Virtually all intel has Ukraine making steady progress, winning the skirmishes/battles, and losing a fraction of the soldiers and hardware Russia is. Our corp intel has been consistent on that for weeks.
International intel has been widely reported. Below is just one example from yesterday. I also review weekly corporate briefings that unfortunately, I cannot share. The reports definitely are not all positive, but they've consistently shown steady progress. Again, I emphasize that can change anytime, and it obviously does not guarantee victory as we define it.💪🏻 Ukraine liberated more territory in a month than Russia captured in a year − MI6 Chiefhttps://t.co/84SL7099dn
— Ukrainska Pravda in English (@pravda_eng) July 19, 2023
It's basically only western intel that reports, although even reports out of Russia don't deny Ukraine progress. They just emphasize the slow more than the steady which is understandable. But not even Putin can deny satellites showing control lines.
A similar pattern holds across the board--Ukes make momentary gains and are driven back. They may have gained more territory than Russia did in a year, but Russia spent most of that year on the defensive. So it's an apples to oranges comparison. As for losses, the NYT reported that Ukraine lost 20% of its hardware in the first couple weeks of the offensive. It's likely 30% by now. The Russians also claimed 26K Ukrainian casualties in the same period.
I'm not bothered, I was just curious about your sources.sombear said:You say you disagree, which is fine, but your details don't actually disagree. I have not characterized Ukraine's progress as "significant" (or not), nor have I said yesterday's UK report was apples to apples with your baseline on hardware, weapons, etc. I am simply referencing public and non-public info showing that Ukraine continues to gain ground, which, again, anyone can see in satellite data.Sam Lowry said:I would have to disagree with that. Neither Western nor Russian sources are showing significant progress in terms of territory. If anything the Russians seem to have the initiative around Kupiansk. The southern flank of Bakhmut, around Klischiivka, was hotly contested in the last 48 hours but now appears to be back in Russian hands. There's been even less change in the south.sombear said:Sam Lowry said:Any non-Western sources?sombear said:Sam Lowry said:Where are you seeing this intel?sombear said:Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:...and both sides are getting shellacked.....Sam Lowry said:
"Russian forces conducting offensive actions in Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Ukrainian military had 36 combat engagements with Russian forces west to Lyman Pershyy of Kharkiv region, west to Dibroba and east to Vesele of Luhansk region, near Minkivka, south-east to Orikhovo-Vasylivka, south-east to Bohdanivka and near Ivanivske of Donetsk region, Avdiyivka of Donetsk region, near Maryinka and near Krasnohorivka, General Staff of Armed Forces of Ukraine says in the morning report."
FTFY
Virtually all intel has Ukraine making steady progress, winning the skirmishes/battles, and losing a fraction of the soldiers and hardware Russia is. Our corp intel has been consistent on that for weeks.
International intel has been widely reported. Below is just one example from yesterday. I also review weekly corporate briefings that unfortunately, I cannot share. The reports definitely are not all positive, but they've consistently shown steady progress. Again, I emphasize that can change anytime, and it obviously does not guarantee victory as we define it.💪🏻 Ukraine liberated more territory in a month than Russia captured in a year − MI6 Chiefhttps://t.co/84SL7099dn
— Ukrainska Pravda in English (@pravda_eng) July 19, 2023
It's basically only western intel that reports, although even reports out of Russia don't deny Ukraine progress. They just emphasize the slow more than the steady which is understandable. But not even Putin can deny satellites showing control lines.
A similar pattern holds across the board--Ukes make momentary gains and are driven back. They may have gained more territory than Russia did in a year, but Russia spent most of that year on the defensive. So it's an apples to oranges comparison. As for losses, the NYT reported that Ukraine lost 20% of its hardware in the first couple weeks of the offensive. It's likely 30% by now. The Russians also claimed 26K Ukrainian casualties in the same period.
I'm not going to debate how significant Ukraine's progress has been because I really do not know. As I've posted several times, my corp sources (which include Russian and Chinese intel) remain reluctant to opine on whether Ukraine is actually "winning" according to its own goals. And these are folks to whom we pay a lot of money to be candid. What they are clear on is that it's a real slog with Ukraine making progress and seeming to have a slight upper hand across the front. That matches public reporting.
But, again, that's a long way from declaring that Ukraine is beating the heck out of the Russians.
All of this seems to bother you for some reason. If you think Russia is countering effectively, fine. I just have not seen any evidence of that. Obviously, there have been individual skirmishes and battles with different outcomes.
My support for Ukraine is not based on how well I think they are doing right now. If I get info that things are going the other way, I will post it.
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When the Maidan protests started in Kiev late last year, Mishin followed them with increasing anxiety. He watched as young men in masks and the insignia of old Ukrainian fascist movements attacked riot police some of them from the Donetsk area with Molotov cocktails. He saw governors in the western provinces pulled out of their offices and roughed up by furious crowds. It seemed that the country was descending into chaos. When he heard a rumour that some of the young men from Maidan were headed for Donetsk, he believed it. After work he started taking the bus to the centre of Donetsk to stand with the protesters who called themselves 'anti-Maidan'. Some of them waved Russian flags; others held up posters of Stalin. But they all wanted to express their disagreement with what was happening in Kiev. Mishin supported this. He was worried that he might get into trouble he was a city official, after all but he figured that he was doing it in his own time, and it was something he believed in. But he concealed his new political activity from his parents, who would have worried.
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In Donetsk I had expected to find a totalitarian proto-state, and I did. The Kremlin liked calling the government in Kiev a 'junta', but here you had a real one. Professional mercenaries in fatigues called the shots and even ministers of state felt compelled to cross the street at the sight of armed men, lest a misunderstanding occur. What I didn't expect to find were so many people who believed in all of it with such certainty, and with such hope.
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For Mishin and Bik, the signal events of the past year looked very different from the way they looked to my friends in Kiev or Moscow. When liberals in those places had seen young men on Maidan attacking the riot police, they thought, 'people power'; and when they saw men in Donetsk beating pro-Ukraine protesters, they thought, 'fascists'. But that wasn't how it looked from Donetsk. From Donetsk they saw fascists on Maidan and, on the streets of Donetsk, people power. Whether the actual fascists on Maidan made them more or less certain of this, I don't know, but hearing it gave body to something the sociologist Volodymyr Ishchenko had said to me in Kiev: 'It was the liberals' tolerance of the nationalists on Maidan that led to this. If they had rejected them right away, things might have turned out differently. It might have led to the collapse of Maidan. It might even have meant that Yanukovych remained president. But at least there would have been peace.'
Mishin and Bik were what the sociologists call the 'losers' of the post-Soviet transition. In Soviet times Bik had been a coal miner with aspirations to join the KGB. 'They didn't take Party bosses' sons, you know,' he said (wrongly). 'They took working people like me.' And Mishin was a mighty athlete. He recalled playing in a tournament in Leningrad and being promised a trip to the United States. 'The USA!' he recalled thinking. And then the whole world collapsed. Industrial regions like Donbass were hardest hit by the changes: it was the region's industrial output that plummeted furthest in the 1990s; it was industrial plants over which the bloodiest turf wars revolved. And it was in these places that the loss of status was most extreme. Industrial work was championed by the Soviets, both in word and in deed: coal miners in Donbass earned on average two or three times what a software engineer like my father earned in Moscow. (In the early 1980s, Bik had been working as a miner for just a few months when he bought a motorbike. The girls went crazy for it.) When the Soviet Union ended, the entire country experienced what Nietzsche might have recognised as a transvaluation of all values: what had been good was now bad, and what had been bad was now good. Some people liked it and grew rich; other people were left behind. With the victory of protests that were still referred to by some of their supporters as Euromaidan, the people of this industrial region were being asked to endure yet another round of deindustrialisation of austerity, unemployment and social death. They had balked at this and, what was more, they had an out. Deindustrialisation had gone hand in hand, the first time, with the collapse of the empire. But what if the empire could be restored? Maybe the jobs would come back? If the Russians felt they had 'lost' something in Ukraine, many people in Eastern Ukraine felt as if they'd been stranded from their motherland. 'They call us traitors and separatists,' Bik said. 'But I don't feel like a traitor. I felt like a traitor before, when I had to call myself Ukrainian. I don't feel like a traitor now.'
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And so imagine if for two decades you have been trying to pull your country, bit by bit, into Europe. Imagine that it's been a bumpy road everything you accomplish seems to get sabotaged by the political forces from the east. Imagine that finally the contradictions within your country have come to a breaking point. Imagine that all the people who opposed your politics for twenty years all the most backward, poorest, least successful people in the country got together in one place, declared an independent republic, and took up arms? What would you do? You could let them go. But then you'd lose all that land and its industrial capacity and also what kind of country just lets chunks of itself fall off? Perhaps you could think of it as an opportunity. Something similar happened when the old Stalinists and nationalists took over the Supreme Soviet in Moscow in 1993. All the enemies of progress in one place, all the losers and has-beens: wouldn't it be better just to solve the problem once and for all? Wouldn't it be a better long-term solution just to kill as many as you could and scare the **** out of the rest of them, for ever? This is what I heard from respectable people in Kiev. Not from the nationalists, but from liberals, from professionals and journalists. All the bad people were in one place why not kill them all?
