So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.sombear said:As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.KaiBear said:
Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?
All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.
The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.
Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.
Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.
You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.
We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.
Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't
It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.
There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.
You named a number....95%
You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.
There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.
I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war
The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.
https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).
You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.
[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]
Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?
I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.
Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.
Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.
And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.
Russia mobilizes
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Sam Lowry said:So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.sombear said:As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.KaiBear said:
Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?
All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.
The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.
Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.
Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.
You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.
We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.
Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't
It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.
There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.
You named a number....95%
You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.
There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.
I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war
The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.
https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).
You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.
[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]
Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?
I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.
Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.
Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.
And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.
Lol I'm not the one defending actual RU combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops?
He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.sombear said:As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.KaiBear said:
Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?
All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.
The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.
Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.
Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.
You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.
We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.
Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't
It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.
There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.
You named a number....95%
You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.
There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.
I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war
The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.
https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).
You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.
[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]
Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?
I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.
Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.
Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.
And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.
Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.
This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."
Sam Lowry said:He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.sombear said:As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.KaiBear said:
Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?
All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.
The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.
Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.
Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.
You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.
We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.
Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't
It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.
There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.
You named a number....95%
You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.
There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.
I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war
The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.
https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).
You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.
[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]
Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?
I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.
Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.
Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.
And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.
Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.
This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."
Sounds like fafo to me.
Sam Lowry said:He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.sombear said:As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.KaiBear said:
Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?
All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.
The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.
Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.
Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.
You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.
We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.
Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't
It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.
There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.
You named a number....95%
You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.
There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.
I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war
The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.
https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).
You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.
[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]
Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?
I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.
Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.
Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.
And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.
Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.
This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."
To be fair you are arguing with guys on a website who don't really care about "free speech" or "democracy"....in Ukraine (or even here at home).
These are just talking points to them to justify expansion of this war in eastern Europe.
Look at this very thread....the just laugh off the fact that Ukraine's current ruling regime has banned rival political parties, shut down rival press, consolidated all tv platforms under government control, even moved against a rival Christian religious Churches, and has banned elections for the foreseeable future.
And they don't care about a ballooning and out of control national-security state apparatus here at home....one that has already racked up an impressive list of civil rights violations, constitutional infractions, and dubious behavior.
That's awful rich comedy there dumbass. Free Speech and Democracy = "relocating" tens or hundreds of thousands of children, raping thousands of women, raping children in front of their parents, bragging about it on blogs and on video, interviewing soldiers' wives in Russia who support the rapings because "it will force Ukraine into submission 'for the greater good', and so on.Sam Lowry said:He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.sombear said:As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.KaiBear said:
Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?
All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.
The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.
Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.
Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.
You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.
We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.
Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't
It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.
There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.
You named a number....95%
You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.
There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.
I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war
The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.
https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).
You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.
[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]
Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?
I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.
Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.
Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.
And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.
Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.
This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."
Good ol' free speech.
I hope the CIA is monitoring your shlt and you get caught monetarily supporting that criminal state and put away for it.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
trey3216 said:Sam Lowry said:He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.sombear said:As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.KaiBear said:
Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?
All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.
The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.
Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.
Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.
You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.
We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.
Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't
It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.
There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.
You named a number....95%
You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.
There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.
I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war
The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.
https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).
You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.
[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]
Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?
I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.
Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.
Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.
And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.
Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.
This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."
I hope the CIA is monitoring your shlt and you get caught monetarily supporting that criminal state and put away for it.
Trey needs some bumper stickers for his new car..."I ****ing love the CIA", "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", "Print the money baby and send it to Kyvi"
I'll bet they do. Get used to back-pedaling now...it'll come in real handy these next few months.whiterock said:DIA apparently thinks it'll take 6wks or so longer than I assessed a few posts backSam Lowry said:Ukraine is not a powerful ally of China or anyone else.Quote:Quote:Russia is a major adversary to us worldwide.Quote:Quote:Those questions have been answered ad nauseum. You just refuse to acknowledge the geopolitical realities and instead focus on some Russian zeitgeist claim.Quote:
1. The old USSR was not the modern Russian Federation.
The whole collapse of the USSR and end of the Soviet Communist party would be a major sign of that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union
This whole idea that the Moscow ruling government in 1970 is the same as Moscow government in 2023....its a lot like saying Berlin ruling government in 1933 is the same as the Berlin government in 1993.
Different regimes, different ideology, completely different make up of the State and nation, etc.
2. As far as interference in Ukraine specifically (then and now)...well that is just something that is always going to happen when its on your borders.
Russia (as a State) has long term geo-political interests in Ukraine that are not ever going away....they have been involved in Ukraine since the 1600s under lots of different types of governments (Czarist, provisional Republican, Bolshevik/Communist, and now Russian nationalist)
The question is not "why is Moscow interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine" the real question is "why is Washington interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine"
And yet the answers have never been compelling.
The USA has no major geo-strategic interests east of the Bug river.
Russia does.
The USA is not under military threat from a poor & incompetent Russian army....neither are our NATO allies....and the USA and its NATO allies would easily crush the Russian military if a conflict broke out.
Russia does feel threated...and is
None of the answers for why Victoria Nuland is allowed to run around Kyiv are very good ones.
Go read Peter Hitchens....he asks the same questions and is still waiting for a good response.
Limiting Russia's reach and strength is our direct interest as is helping democracies.
Correct, Russia is not going to attack us directly, and we know that. But the flip side is true also. Despite the protestations of the Putin apologists, Russia knows neither the U.S. nor NATO is going to directly attack it.
Putin and his cronies have been very clear about why it invaded Ukraine both recent times. If only we'd listen. It is trying as best it can to reconstitute the empire. It has never accepted Ukraine as a nation separate from Russia. It abhors Ukrainians. It wants Ukraine's resources.
Nuland has become the Haliburton of the gulf war. Reflexive retort . . . Nuland!
To that excellent response I woujd only add this: ending our involvement in Ukraine will have no impact on the fleecing of the taxpayer. "….the road goes on forever and the party never ends…"
we are getting more of our money's worth in Ukraine than in most other boondoggles ongoing at this moment. We are grinding into scrap metal the army of China's most powerful ally.US Defense Intelligence Agency Director of Analysis Trent Maul stated that there is a “realistic possibility” that Ukrainian forces will break through the entire Russian defense in southern #Ukraine by the end of 2023, while a Ukrainian source suggested that upcoming Russian… https://t.co/LKERHGUdfi
— ISW (@TheStudyofWar) September 8, 2023
Of course they don't. They'd like nothing better than to silence fellow Americans who disagree with them.Redbrickbear said:Sam Lowry said:He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.sombear said:As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.KaiBear said:
Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?
All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.
The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.
Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.
Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.
You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.
We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.
Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't
It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.
There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.
You named a number....95%
You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.
There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.
I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war
The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.
https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).
You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.
[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]
Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?
I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.
Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.
Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.
And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.
Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.
This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."
To be fair you are arguing with guys on a website who don't really care about "free speech" or "democracy"....in Ukraine (or even here at home).
No love for it whatsoever. But Sam has gone from being a reasonable person to overtly and ostensibly in support of an autocratic/fascist regime. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually monetarily supportive of their efforts.Redbrickbear said:trey3216 said:Sam Lowry said:He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.sombear said:As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.KaiBear said:
Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?
All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.
The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.
Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.
Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.
You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.
We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.
Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't
It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.
There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.
You named a number....95%
You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.
There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.
I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war
The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.
https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).
You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.
[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]
Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?
I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.
Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.
Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.
And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.
Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.
This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."
I hope the CIA is monitoring your shlt and you get caught monetarily supporting that criminal state and put away for it.
Trey needs some bumper stickers for his new car..."I ****ing love the CIA", "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", "Print the money baby and send it to Kyvi"
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
trey3216 said:No love for it whatsoever. But Sam has gone from being a reasonable person to overtly and ostensibly in support of an autocratic/fascist regime. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually monetarily supportive of their efforts.Redbrickbear said:trey3216 said:Sam Lowry said:He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.sombear said:As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.KaiBear said:
Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?
All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.
The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.
Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.
Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.
You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.
We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.
Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't
It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.
There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.
You named a number....95%
You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.
There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.
I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war
The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.
https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).
You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.
[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts%85]
Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?
I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.
Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.
Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.
And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.
Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.
This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."
I hope the CIA is monitoring your shlt and you get caught monetarily supporting that criminal state and put away for it.
Trey needs some bumper stickers for his new car..."I ****ing love the CIA", "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", "Print the money baby and send it to Kyvi"
We can stop supporting fascist regimes right now, starting with Ukraine.trey3216 said:No love for it whatsoever. But Sam has gone from being a reasonable person to overtly and ostensibly in support of an autocratic/fascist regime. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually monetarily supportive of their efforts.Redbrickbear said:trey3216 said:Sam Lowry said:He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.sombear said:As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.KaiBear said:
Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?
All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.
The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.
Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.
Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.
You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.
We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.
Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't
It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.
There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.
You named a number....95%
You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.
There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.
I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war
The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.
https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).
You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.
[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]
Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?
I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.
Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.
Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.
And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.
Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.
This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."
I hope the CIA is monitoring your shlt and you get caught monetarily supporting that criminal state and put away for it.
Trey needs some bumper stickers for his new car..."I ****ing love the CIA", "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", "Print the money baby and send it to Kyvi"
Sam, Kaibear, and Redbrick want into a Ukrainian Bar. They open their mouth about Ukraine not deserving freedom and get their asses kicked. End of Joke
Thank God I don't live around any Ukrainian or Russian bars....I like to live you know....around actual damn Americans.ron.reagan said:
Sam, Kaibear, and Redbrick want into a Ukrainian Bar. They open their mouth about Ukraine not deserving freedom and get their asses kicked. End of Joke
Ron expects us to think he cares about Ukrainian freedom. End of joke.Redbrickbear said:Thank God I don't live around any Ukrainian or Russian bars....I like to live you know....around actual damn Americans.ron.reagan said:
Sam, Kaibear, and Redbrick want into a Ukrainian Bar. They open their mouth about Ukraine not deserving freedom and get their asses kicked. End of Joke
If all Americans were as afraid of Russia like you are you would be surrounded by Russian bars. You belong on the losing side of history.Redbrickbear said:Thank God I don't live around any Ukrainian or Russian bars....I like to live you know....around actual damn Americans.ron.reagan said:
Sam, Kaibear, and Redbrick want into a Ukrainian Bar. They open their mouth about Ukraine not deserving freedom and get their asses kicked. End of Joke
ron.reagan said:If all Americans were as afraid of Russia like you are you would be surrounded by Russian bars. You belong on the losing side of history.Redbrickbear said:Thank God I don't live around any Ukrainian or Russian bars....I like to live you know....around actual damn Americans.ron.reagan said:
Sam, Kaibear, and Redbrick want into a Ukrainian Bar. They open their mouth about Ukraine not deserving freedom and get their asses kicked. End of Joke
You're not serious?
You, and the rest on here, hiding behind your computer screens scared that the big ole bad ruskie armies are gonna run through Europe like Mexican diarrhea and water their horses in the English Channel...then cross the ocean and come for your precious fast food joints and Hollywood movies.
Look maybe if we don't stop the russians on the Dnieper they will be butt ferking you guys on the Brazos in no time....but I really really doubt it.
You are like an abused spouse at the stage of getting hit a few times and being happy that you don't get killed. How many times are you going to let Putin slap you before you leave him? What a loser.Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:If all Americans were as afraid of Russia like you are you would be surrounded by Russian bars. You belong on the losing side of history.Redbrickbear said:Thank God I don't live around any Ukrainian or Russian bars....I like to live you know....around actual damn Americans.ron.reagan said:
Sam, Kaibear, and Redbrick want into a Ukrainian Bar. They open their mouth about Ukraine not deserving freedom and get their asses kicked. End of Joke
You're not serious?
You, and the rest on here, hiding behind your computer screens scared that the big ole bad ruskie armies are gonna run through Europe like Mexican diarrhea and water their horses in the English Channel...then cross the ocean and come for your precious fast food joints and Hollywood movies.
Look maybe if we don't stop the russians on the Dnieper they will be butt ferking you guys on the Brazos in no time....but I really really doubt it.
ron.reagan said:You are like an abused spouse at the stage of getting hit a few times and being happy that you don't get killed. How many times are you going to let Putin slap you before you leave him? What a loser.Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:If all Americans were as afraid of Russia like you are you would be surrounded by Russian bars. You belong on the losing side of history.Redbrickbear said:Thank God I don't live around any Ukrainian or Russian bars....I like to live you know....around actual damn Americans.ron.reagan said:
Sam, Kaibear, and Redbrick want into a Ukrainian Bar. They open their mouth about Ukraine not deserving freedom and get their asses kicked. End of Joke
You're not serious?
You, and the rest on here, hiding behind your computer screens scared that the big ole bad ruskie armies are gonna run through Europe like Mexican diarrhea and water their horses in the English Channel...then cross the ocean and come for your precious fast food joints and Hollywood movies.
Look maybe if we don't stop the russians on the Dnieper they will be butt ferking you guys on the Brazos in no time....but I really really doubt it.
Naw...just not scared of a rusting out ex-soviet remnant state with a birth rate well below replacement who can't even successfully bully a neighbor.
But if you are scared shaking under your pillow at night that the US lead NATO alliance (30+ nation alliance, 900 million plus people, and trillions in GDP economic & military power) can't defend you from Russians old equipment and 144 million people....well be scared girlyboy....just leave us the rest out of your war hero fantasies in eastern Europe
"Naw...just not scared of a rusting out ex-soviet remnant state with a birth rate well below replacement who can't even successfully bully a neighbor."Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:You are like an abused spouse at the stage of getting hit a few times and being happy that you don't get killed. How many times are you going to let Putin slap you before you leave him? What a loser.Redbrickbear said:ron.reagan said:If all Americans were as afraid of Russia like you are you would be surrounded by Russian bars. You belong on the losing side of history.Redbrickbear said:Thank God I don't live around any Ukrainian or Russian bars....I like to live you know....around actual damn Americans.ron.reagan said:
Sam, Kaibear, and Redbrick want into a Ukrainian Bar. They open their mouth about Ukraine not deserving freedom and get their asses kicked. End of Joke
You're not serious?
You, and the rest on here, hiding behind your computer screens scared that the big ole bad ruskie armies are gonna run through Europe like Mexican diarrhea and water their horses in the English Channel...then cross the ocean and come for your precious fast food joints and Hollywood movies.
Look maybe if we don't stop the russians on the Dnieper they will be butt ferking you guys on the Brazos in no time....but I really really doubt it.
Naw...just not scared of a rusting out ex-soviet remnant state with a birth rate well below replacement who can't even successfully bully a neighbor.
But if you are scared shaking under your pillow at night that the US lead NATO alliance (30+ nation alliance, 900 million plus people, and trillions in GDP economic & military power) can't defend you from Russians old equipment and 144 million people....well be scared girlyboy....just leave us the rest out of your war hero fantasies in eastern Europe
At least you can admit it
Likely hundreds of thousands.KaiBear said:
US manipulated this war.
Thousands are now dead because of it.
Do you actually believe Ukraine public sentiment has moved the other way as Ukraine gains ground, U.S. and Europe increase funding, and Putin escalates his terror campaign against innocents? Seriously do you really believe that or are you just playing devil's advocate?Sam Lowry said:That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.sombear said:As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.KaiBear said:
Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?
All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.
The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.
Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.
Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.
You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.
We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.
Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't
It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.
There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.
You named a number....95%
You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.
There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.
I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war
The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.
https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).
You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.
[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]
Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?
I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.
Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.
If you believe that, do you have any evidence whatsoever? Heck, I'd take even a Kremlin poll!
The goal post moving and intellectual gymnastics are exhausting. Your side claims (1) Russia overwhelmingly supports Putin's war, (2) Ukrainians oppose its defense effort, and (3) we're imposing our will on the Ukrainian people. Our side demonstrates these are patently false Russian talking points. Your side ignores it and resorts back to the freedom theme? That's quite ironic given that Putin literally invaded and is trying to take over a free, sovereign nation, and the freest and most democratic countries support Ukraine.Redbrickbear said:Sam Lowry said:He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.sombear said:As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.KaiBear said:
Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?
All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.
The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.
Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.
Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.
You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.
We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.
Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't
It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.
There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.
You named a number....95%
You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.
There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.
I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war
The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.
https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).
You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.
[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]
Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?
I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.
Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.
Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.
And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.
Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.
This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."
To be fair you are arguing with guys on a website who don't really care about "free speech" or "democracy"....in Ukraine (or even here at home).
These are just talking points to them to justify expansion of this war in eastern Europe.
Look at this very thread....the just laugh off the fact that Ukraine's current ruling regime has banned rival political parties, shut down rival press, consolidated all tv platforms under government control, even moved against a rival Christian religious Churches, and has banned elections for the foreseeable future.
And they don't care about a ballooning and out of control national-security state apparatus here at home....one that has already racked up an impressive list of civil rights violations, constitutional infractions, and dubious behavior.
As for your laundry list, the fact is, most folks understand that, when a country is attacked and invaded, you can't allow the enemy to gain a foothold. What you comically refer to as "rivals" actually are pro-Russian folks, who helped and are supported by Russia.
As for no elections, not only do I have zero issue with it, I think Ukraine would be crazy to devote all the time, money, effort, and attention it takes to run federal elections while at war in your homeland against an invader. I'd want my President, other leaders, military, and funding focused on one thing, defeating the invader.
Ukrainians overwhelmingly support Zelensky and abhor Russia. I know that bothers you, and perhaps it's hard for you to believe.
Russia made them fascist, corrupt, and backwards. You and your ilk don't want them to breakaway. They mirror Russia not because the West was involved. Just the opposite.Sam Lowry said:We can stop supporting fascist regimes right now, starting with Ukraine.trey3216 said:No love for it whatsoever. But Sam has gone from being a reasonable person to overtly and ostensibly in support of an autocratic/fascist regime. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually monetarily supportive of their efforts.Redbrickbear said:trey3216 said:Sam Lowry said:He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.sombear said:As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.KaiBear said:
Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?
All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.
The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.
Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.
Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.
You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.
We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.
Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't
It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.
There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.
You named a number....95%
You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.
There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.
I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war
The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.
https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).
You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.
[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]
Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?
I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.
Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.
Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.
And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.
Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.
This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."
I hope the CIA is monitoring your shlt and you get caught monetarily supporting that criminal state and put away for it.
Trey needs some bumper stickers for his new car..."I ****ing love the CIA", "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", "Print the money baby and send it to Kyvi"
"Hell is the absence of reason." Welcome to hell.sombear said:Do you actually believe Ukraine public sentiment has moved the other way as Ukraine gains ground, U.S. and Europe increase funding, and Putin escalates his terror campaign against innocents? Seriously do you really believe that or are you just playing devil's advocate?Sam Lowry said:That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.sombear said:As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.KaiBear said:
Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?
All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.
The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.
Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.
Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.
You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.
We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.
Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't
It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.
There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.
You named a number....95%
You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.
There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.
I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war
The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.
https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).
You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.
[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]
Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?
I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.
Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.
If you believe that, do you have any evidence whatsoever? Heck, I'd take even a Kremlin poll!
ATL Bear said:Russia made them fascist...Sam Lowry said:We can stop supporting fascist regimes right now, starting with Ukraine.trey3216 said:No love for it whatsoever. But Sam has gone from being a reasonable person to overtly and ostensibly in support of an autocratic/fascist regime. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually monetarily supportive of their efforts.Redbrickbear said:trey3216 said:Sam Lowry said:He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.sombear said:As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.KaiBear said:
Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?
All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.
The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.
Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.
Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.
You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.
We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.
Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't
It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.
There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.
You named a number....95%
You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.
There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.
I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war
The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.
https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).
You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.
[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]
Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?
I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.
Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.
Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.
And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.
Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.
This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."
I hope the CIA is monitoring your shlt and you get caught monetarily supporting that criminal state and put away for it.
Trey needs some bumper stickers for his new car..."I ****ing love the CIA", "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", "Print the money baby and send it to Kyvi"
The Russian slavs, who fought the fascist axis powers in World War II, while losing 27 million people during the war (including 8.7 million military and 19 million civilians) made the Ukrainians fascist?
God dang we have some big brain boys on this board.
*p.s.
Neither the modern Ukrainians nor Russians are actual fascists…get a dictionary and look up the term
Either you are under the age of 15 or have perpetual brain fog.ron.reagan said:"There is zero chance Ukraine can invade and hold significant parts of Russian territory."KaiBear said:
US manipulated this war.
Thousands are now dead because of it.
Yet the clueless internet warriors who have never seen the corpses stack up still think of this horror as some kind of video game.
Yet not a single one of these heroes would ever enlist to fight. Might get their fingernails dirty ( or leg blown off )
And for all this mesage board chatter no one sincerely believes Ukraine can defeat Russia. There is zero chance Ukraine can invade and hold significant parts of Russian territory.
Past time to end this abomination and broker a cease fire.
What conflict are you following?
What part of 'significant' and 'hold' is beyond your comprehension ?
Have you even examined a map of Ukraine ? Really think those wide swaths of the eastern parts of the country are not occupied by Russia ?
KaiBear said:
US manipulated this war.
Thousands are now dead because of it.
Yet the clueless internet warriors who have never seen the corpses stack up still think of this horror as some kind of video game.
Yet not a single one of these heroes would ever enlist to fight. Might get their fingernails dirty ( or leg blown off )
And for all this mesage board chatter no one sincerely believes Ukraine can defeat Russia. There is zero chance Ukraine can invade and hold significant parts of Russian territory.
Past time to end this abomination and broker a cease fire.
Nobody ""manipulates a major power into a 150k troop strong invasion.
Ukraine would have already defeated Russia if Biden had not slow-walked the aid. And Ukraine will win anyway, "win" being defined as pushing Russia back to pre-invasion positions. Ukraine would, if properly supported, push Russia back to pre-2014 position.
Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:He was giving a talk at a cafe in St. Petersburg. Two dozen people were hospitalized from the explosion.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:So it's "propaganda," but you admit it happened and try to justify it.Bear8084 said:Sam Lowry said:That's far from clear. The oldest of those polls was more than a year ago, and the newest was months before the counter-offensive began. At least in America there's evidence that opinions are changing. In Ukraine it's obviously hard to tell since opposing government policy can get you kidnapped, tortured, or worse. They just recently murdered a Russian war blogger, who was on a hit list along with prominent Europeans, Americans, and thousands of journalists.sombear said:As usual, I suggest reading the article. It's not their poll. They were reporting on a poll conducted by a respected independent pollster that historically has released polls unfavorable to the Ukraine administration.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:Redbrickbear said:sombear said:95% of Ukrainians support the total war effort. Quite elitist of you to suggest we're making/forcing their decisions.KaiBear said:
Wonder how many more Ukranians were killed last week in Biden's proxy war with Russia ? How many more crippled for life, how many more had their homes destroyed ?
All so Ukraine could accept US prodding to join NATO.
The same NATO that, just 2 months ago, turned down even the prospect of Ukranian membership into their organization.
Don't look too closely into US meddling all you internet soldiers.
Might force you to finally accept all the Ukranian blood on our hands.
You can not possibly know that.....hell Ukraine is not even allowed to have elections right now by the Regime in Kyiv.
We have zero idea what average Ukrainians thinks about total war or about being bayonet marched into conscription.
Maybe vast majorities support the total war...maybe they don't
It benefits Washington to put out the narrative that average Ukrainians really want to fight this war...the same as how it benefits Moscow to put out the narrative that average Russians want to fight this war.
There is plenty of evidence on this, and both are true. A strong majority of Ukrainians and Russians support the war, though higher in Ukraine.
You named a number....95%
You can't know that and it would be better if you just acknowledged that it is a percentage you pulled out of your butt.
There are lots of young fighting age men trying to get out of both Ukraine and Russia (to avoid this fight) and flee to the other places.
I would be willing to bet my whole life savings that you can't get 95% of Ukrainians to say they support this long war
The stream of OSINT on this question is remarkably consistent across all sources - the Russian invasion galvanized Ukrainian nationalism, unified Ukrainian and Russian speaking Ukrainians virtually overnight. Consistent and very high support for territorial integrity, winning the war, expelling Russia, etc..... Over and over. Sustained over long periods of time. There seems to be no quit in the Ukrainians. The war has become a crucible that is transforming the soul of their nation in very positive ways, particularly on the question of unity.
https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/471155/charts-russia-ukraine-war.aspx
https://news.gallup.com/poll/403133/ukrainians-support-fighting-until-victory.aspx
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-unity-identity-poll-russian-invasion/32001348.html
https://www.iri.org/news/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-strong-confidence-in-president-zelensky-a-surge-in-support-for-nato-membership-russia-should-pay-for-reconstruction/
https://news.gallup.com/topic/country-ukr.aspx (Gallup homepage on Ukraine polling).
You can ignore it if you wish, but incredibly high Ukrainian support for the war is a fact which starkly rebukes a key premise of your perspective the War.
[Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a United States government funded media organization that broadcasts…]
Is this the part where we just post articles uncritically from government funded propaganda outfits?
I think we all agree you take any poll with at least some grain of salt, but all the data is consistent and has been since late 2022.
Just in case anyone forgot that we're supporting a right-wing terrorist regime.
Doubling down on the RU propaganda today I see. Must've been a riveting episode of Solovyov last night.
And trying to pass off RU war bloggers as some innocents when they command their own troops and help load heavy artillery is quite stupid. I would say even for you vatnik, but you continue to show your stupidity in this in every post. Almost to the point of comedy now.
Lol I'm not the one defending actual combatants passing off as "war bloggers". Maybe they shouldn't film themselves sighting and loading artillery and bragging about leading troops.
This is how your pals defend free speech and "democracy."
Sounds like fafo to me.
I guess if they'd have used a thermobaric rocket to do the deed it woulda been fitting and proper.
Sam Lowry said:Likely hundreds of thousands.KaiBear said:
US manipulated this war.
Thousands are now dead because of it.
Hundreds of thousands of people are dead because Russia invaded Ukraine.
Sam Lowry said:I'll bet they do. Get used to back-pedaling now...it'll come in real handy these next few months.whiterock said:DIA apparently thinks it'll take 6wks or so longer than I assessed a few posts backSam Lowry said:Ukraine is not a powerful ally of China or anyone else.Quote:Quote:Russia is a major adversary to us worldwide.Quote:Quote:Those questions have been answered ad nauseum. You just refuse to acknowledge the geopolitical realities and instead focus on some Russian zeitgeist claim.Quote:
1. The old USSR was not the modern Russian Federation.
The whole collapse of the USSR and end of the Soviet Communist party would be a major sign of that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union
This whole idea that the Moscow ruling government in 1970 is the same as Moscow government in 2023....its a lot like saying Berlin ruling government in 1933 is the same as the Berlin government in 1993.
Different regimes, different ideology, completely different make up of the State and nation, etc.
2. As far as interference in Ukraine specifically (then and now)...well that is just something that is always going to happen when its on your borders.
Russia (as a State) has long term geo-political interests in Ukraine that are not ever going away....they have been involved in Ukraine since the 1600s under lots of different types of governments (Czarist, provisional Republican, Bolshevik/Communist, and now Russian nationalist)
The question is not "why is Moscow interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine" the real question is "why is Washington interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine"
And yet the answers have never been compelling.
The USA has no major geo-strategic interests east of the Bug river.
Russia does.
The USA is not under military threat from a poor & incompetent Russian army....neither are our NATO allies....and the USA and its NATO allies would easily crush the Russian military if a conflict broke out.
Russia does feel threated...and is
None of the answers for why Victoria Nuland is allowed to run around Kyiv are very good ones.
Go read Peter Hitchens....he asks the same questions and is still waiting for a good response.
Limiting Russia's reach and strength is our direct interest as is helping democracies.
Correct, Russia is not going to attack us directly, and we know that. But the flip side is true also. Despite the protestations of the Putin apologists, Russia knows neither the U.S. nor NATO is going to directly attack it.
Putin and his cronies have been very clear about why it invaded Ukraine both recent times. If only we'd listen. It is trying as best it can to reconstitute the empire. It has never accepted Ukraine as a nation separate from Russia. It abhors Ukrainians. It wants Ukraine's resources.
Nuland has become the Haliburton of the gulf war. Reflexive retort . . . Nuland!
To that excellent response I woujd only add this: ending our involvement in Ukraine will have no impact on the fleecing of the taxpayer. "….the road goes on forever and the party never ends…"
we are getting more of our money's worth in Ukraine than in most other boondoggles ongoing at this moment. We are grinding into scrap metal the army of China's most powerful ally.US Defense Intelligence Agency Director of Analysis Trent Maul stated that there is a “realistic possibility” that Ukrainian forces will break through the entire Russian defense in southern #Ukraine by the end of 2023, while a Ukrainian source suggested that upcoming Russian… https://t.co/LKERHGUdfi
— ISW (@TheStudyofWar) September 8, 2023
Russia has clearly decided that the Orkhiv salient is at the breaking point, a strategic threat, and has pulled all available units (all badly depleted far below western standards of combat ineffectiveness) from elsewhere in the line and thrown them into the breach, where they will get mauled by Uke arty. It is a bad choice. But it is less bad than the others before them, like leaving a paper-thin line everywhere else.
denouement approaches.
russia is moving everything they can to try and just hold ground.. but this is going to just bring more troops into the range of ukraine artillery. pic.twitter.com/KKmV99QSAn
— david D. (@secretsqrl123) September 8, 2023
"If only the libs had let us do more of the same…"whiterock said:Ukraine would have already defeated Russia if Biden had not slow-walked the aid.KaiBear said:
US manipulated this war.
Thousands are now dead because of it.
Yet the clueless internet warriors who have never seen the corpses stack up still think of this horror as some kind of video game.
Yet not a single one of these heroes would ever enlist to fight. Might get their fingernails dirty ( or leg blown off )
And for all this mesage board chatter no one sincerely believes Ukraine can defeat Russia. There is zero chance Ukraine can invade and hold significant parts of Russian territory.
Past time to end this abomination and broker a cease fire.
Mark the date, folks. This is what they always say when they realize they've lost again.
Sam Lowry said:"If only the libs had let us do more of the same…"whiterock said:Ukraine would have already defeated Russia if Biden had not slow-walked the aid.KaiBear said:
US manipulated this war.
Thousands are now dead because of it.
Yet the clueless internet warriors who have never seen the corpses stack up still think of this horror as some kind of video game.
Yet not a single one of these heroes would ever enlist to fight. Might get their fingernails dirty ( or leg blown off )
And for all this mesage board chatter no one sincerely believes Ukraine can defeat Russia. There is zero chance Ukraine can invade and hold significant parts of Russian territory.
Past time to end this abomination and broker a cease fire.
Mark the date, folks. This is what they always say when they realize they've lost again.
Not really, Putin puffer.
Well, it's clearly been the Ukes' main focus on the southern front for a while. Whether that was by design or because of their abject failure at Piatykhatky, who can say? I still don't know why you think the Russians are struggling to man their defenses when there's no real sign of it and they probably have four times as many troops in the theater at this point.whiterock said:Sam Lowry said:I'll bet they do. Get used to back-pedaling now...it'll come in real handy these next few months.whiterock said:DIA apparently thinks it'll take 6wks or so longer than I assessed a few posts backSam Lowry said:Ukraine is not a powerful ally of China or anyone else.Quote:Quote:Russia is a major adversary to us worldwide.Quote:Quote:Those questions have been answered ad nauseum. You just refuse to acknowledge the geopolitical realities and instead focus on some Russian zeitgeist claim.Quote:
1. The old USSR was not the modern Russian Federation.
The whole collapse of the USSR and end of the Soviet Communist party would be a major sign of that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union
This whole idea that the Moscow ruling government in 1970 is the same as Moscow government in 2023....its a lot like saying Berlin ruling government in 1933 is the same as the Berlin government in 1993.
Different regimes, different ideology, completely different make up of the State and nation, etc.
2. As far as interference in Ukraine specifically (then and now)...well that is just something that is always going to happen when its on your borders.
Russia (as a State) has long term geo-political interests in Ukraine that are not ever going away....they have been involved in Ukraine since the 1600s under lots of different types of governments (Czarist, provisional Republican, Bolshevik/Communist, and now Russian nationalist)
The question is not "why is Moscow interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine" the real question is "why is Washington interfering in the internal politics of Ukraine"
And yet the answers have never been compelling.
The USA has no major geo-strategic interests east of the Bug river.
Russia does.
The USA is not under military threat from a poor & incompetent Russian army....neither are our NATO allies....and the USA and its NATO allies would easily crush the Russian military if a conflict broke out.
Russia does feel threated...and is
None of the answers for why Victoria Nuland is allowed to run around Kyiv are very good ones.
Go read Peter Hitchens....he asks the same questions and is still waiting for a good response.
Limiting Russia's reach and strength is our direct interest as is helping democracies.
Correct, Russia is not going to attack us directly, and we know that. But the flip side is true also. Despite the protestations of the Putin apologists, Russia knows neither the U.S. nor NATO is going to directly attack it.
Putin and his cronies have been very clear about why it invaded Ukraine both recent times. If only we'd listen. It is trying as best it can to reconstitute the empire. It has never accepted Ukraine as a nation separate from Russia. It abhors Ukrainians. It wants Ukraine's resources.
Nuland has become the Haliburton of the gulf war. Reflexive retort . . . Nuland!
To that excellent response I woujd only add this: ending our involvement in Ukraine will have no impact on the fleecing of the taxpayer. "….the road goes on forever and the party never ends…"
we are getting more of our money's worth in Ukraine than in most other boondoggles ongoing at this moment. We are grinding into scrap metal the army of China's most powerful ally.US Defense Intelligence Agency Director of Analysis Trent Maul stated that there is a “realistic possibility” that Ukrainian forces will break through the entire Russian defense in southern #Ukraine by the end of 2023, while a Ukrainian source suggested that upcoming Russian… https://t.co/LKERHGUdfi
— ISW (@TheStudyofWar) September 8, 2023
Russia has clearly decided that the Orkhiv salient is at the breaking point, a strategic threat, and has pulled all available units (all badly depleted far below western standards of combat ineffectiveness) from elsewhere in the line and thrown them into the breach, where they will get mauled by Uke arty. It is a bad choice. But it is less bad than the others before them, like leaving a paper-thin line everywhere else.
denouement approaches.russia is moving everything they can to try and just hold ground.. but this is going to just bring more troops into the range of ukraine artillery. pic.twitter.com/KKmV99QSAn
— david D. (@secretsqrl123) September 8, 2023