ATL Bear said:
Adriacus Peratuun said:
ATL Bear said:
Adriacus Peratuun said:
ATL Bear said:
Adriacus Peratuun said:
Voice of Reality:
The colonial citizens are patriotic revolutionaries because they defeated Britain.
The Southerners are traitors because they lost to the North.
It is that simple. Reasons, initiating incidents, etc. do not matter.
Only outcome determines how the victors and losers are categorized.
The Khmer Rouge were patriots fighting for their cause against imperialists. The Bolsheviks were patriotic Russians breaking the grip of monarchy.
Don't think it's that simple. Cause and purpose does matter.
The Khmer Rouge were "patriots" until the Vietnamese destroyed them.
It is "that simple". Winners dictate categorization.
When they were winners they dictated status. When they lost they didn't.
The Bolsheviks were patriots for decades until the economic pressure of the West caused the Soviet state to implode. As they left power they stopped being patriots.
When they were winners they dictated status. As subsequent losers they didn't.
Your examples do not support but rather undermine your point.
And it works both ways. Iran's democracy advocates were patriots for a few months until Khomeini and the Islamic fundamentalists destroyed them. Russian democracy advocates were patriots until Putin, the other Former KGB agents, and the sympathetic oligarchs destroyed them.
The French Revolution…..the Nazis…..,Peronistas……the list goes on and on. Everyone is a patriot until they lose power. They then join the ever growing list of state enemies.
That makes absolutely no sense. It would be like me taking your examples and saying the British were the patriots until the colonialists won (they fought the French and Indian War for the colonies), or the Union and not the Confederacy were traitors, until they weren't.
We can still view Iranian democracy advocates as the right cause over the Islamist tyranny that is still in place today regardless of their success. Again, cause and purpose DO matter and victory does NOT always determine how one is viewed historically. In fact history is full of victors whose triumph was a scourge on the people and regions of the world.
You are boasting morality. I am talking label application. The victor gets to apply the labels.
"We" aren't applying labels in Iran. We can judge from afar but I guarantee you that all labeling within Iran is done by their leadership.
You seem to be confusing propaganda with history.
And you seem to forget that people disagreeing with you doesn't rob them of having a perspective.
You are equating your perceived correctness with what you assume to be their lack of viewpoint existence.
Even stipulating that you are right on every single value judgment [no one is], that doesn't eliminate the viewpoints of other people. Right or wrong, they have opinions and assign labels.
Humankind is not required to line up in the shadow of your opinions. They are allowed to think for themselves.
And generally the victors in every scenario assume the correctness of their personal viewpoints.
There might be a moral center to the universe.
I am certain that neither you nor anyone else occupies that space.
But even if you did, that doesn't negate everyone else.
