Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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He won the night right here.

Vivek calls Trump the best president of the 21st century.

This is why he is surging. pic.twitter.com/FfTsO1HbBl

— Charlie Kirk (@charliekirk11) August 24, 2023

---

Trump may well win the Nomination. Dems will then win the General. Trump has zero chance of winning again. You think things were wild in 2020? Wait to you see them stop him this time. He is too polarizing and we can't afford 4 more years of Dems.

---

again. What on earth makes you think they would do wild things to stop Trump, but stand aside and let the chips fall where they may for any other candidate?

---

1) Trump is different from the typical uni-party candidate, and 2) he's also a lunatic. The same things may or may not be true of Ramaswamy.

---

note that you did not answer the question.

Aide: "we have election coming. What are your plans?"
Putin: "I have stay in office to rig the next election to keep that jerk Prigo from getting my job."
Aide: "Uh, boss, Prigo' took a 30k ft dive into the taiga this morning?"
Putin: "You mean somebody turned his ass into potato farm fertilzer?"
Aide: "Indubitably."
Putin: "Ok. Cool then. Cancel all the election shenanigans. I'll run a fair one against anyone else."

---

I don't know what in the world you're talking about, but your question was why Democrats would go to extreme lengths to stop Trump. The answer is that he's different from establishment candidates and thus more of a threat.

---

Read the above dialogue again. Slow down and think. Corrupt politicians do not calibrate their character to match the perceived threat of their opponents. If they cheat in one election, they'll cheat in every election.

---

So there was nothing unusual about 2020? No more cheating than any of the previous elections?

---

They escalated it to the point where it was obvious. Unless one refuses to see it.

---

I thought they didn't calibrate to match perceived threats. Why would they escalate in 2020?

---

Why would they escalate in 2024?

Surely we can do better than just trading loaded questions.

---

Could it be the same reason? Could it be that Trump inspires more...what's a good word for it..."resistance?"

---

If that were true the polling would look differently. More than a few show RDS running weaker than Trump

whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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He won the night right here.

Vivek calls Trump the best president of the 21st century.

This is why he is surging. pic.twitter.com/FfTsO1HbBl

— Charlie Kirk (@charliekirk11) August 24, 2023

---

Trump may well win the Nomination. Dems will then win the General. Trump has zero chance of winning again. You think things were wild in 2020? Wait to you see them stop him this time. He is too polarizing and we can't afford 4 more years of Dems.

---

again. What on earth makes you think they would do wild things to stop Trump, but stand aside and let the chips fall where they may for any other candidate?

---

1) Trump is different from the typical uni-party candidate, and 2) he's also a lunatic. The same things may or may not be true of Ramaswamy.

---

note that you did not answer the question.

Aide: "we have election coming. What are your plans?"
Putin: "I have stay in office to rig the next election to keep that jerk Prigo from getting my job."
Aide: "Uh, boss, Prigo' took a 30k ft dive into the taiga this morning?"
Putin: "You mean somebody turned his ass into potato farm fertilzer?"
Aide: "Indubitably."
Putin: "Ok. Cool then. Cancel all the election shenanigans. I'll run a fair one against anyone else."

---

I don't know what in the world you're talking about, but your question was why Democrats would go to extreme lengths to stop Trump. The answer is that he's different from establishment candidates and thus more of a threat.

---

Read the above dialogue again. Slow down and think. Corrupt politicians do not calibrate their character to match the perceived threat of their opponents. If they cheat in one election, they'll cheat in every election.

---

So there was nothing unusual about 2020? No more cheating than any of the previous elections?

---

They escalated it to the point where it was obvious. Unless one refuses to see it.

---

I thought they didn't calibrate to match perceived threats. Why would they escalate in 2020?

---

Why would they escalate in 2024?

Surely we can do better than just trading loaded questions.

---

Could it be the same reason? Could it be that Trump inspires more...what's a good word for it..."resistance?"

---

If that were true the polling would look differently. More than a few show RDS running weaker than Trump

---

Answering a poll isn't exactly going to wild extremes.

whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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He won the night right here.

Vivek calls Trump the best president of the 21st century.

This is why he is surging. pic.twitter.com/FfTsO1HbBl

— Charlie Kirk (@charliekirk11) August 24, 2023

---

Trump may well win the Nomination. Dems will then win the General. Trump has zero chance of winning again. You think things were wild in 2020? Wait to you see them stop him this time. He is too polarizing and we can't afford 4 more years of Dems.

---

again. What on earth makes you think they would do wild things to stop Trump, but stand aside and let the chips fall where they may for any other candidate?

Seriously. You are not thinking clearly here. If they will cheat to beat Trump, they will cheat to beat anyone else who opposes them. The idea that only pathway to victory is to select a Casper Milquetoast candidate which does not offend Democrat sensibilities is incredibly misguided.

How about the Democrats select a Casper Milquetoast center-lefty who will worry more about what you and I think than what the Antifa caucus thinks?

---

No, someone willing to work on items both parties want would be preferable to someone not willing. A Scott, Haley, Christie, Burgham all have track records that show being reasonable. Trump, no.

You are the one not thinking clearly, there is risk in pushing envelope, been no evidence of cheating proved yet, the more extreme the opponent the more risk is acceptable. To the Dems, Trump is worth all risk. Haley or Scott, not so much.

---

you have a recall problem. Trump was not the obstacle to getting things done. He signed some pretty big compromises. Neither did he go after his political opponents even remotely as ruthlessly as they have come after him.

That last part is the biggest irony of all. Yes, he campaigned on "Lock her up." Then immediately stated after winning the election that such would not happen. That was a mistake. They are definitely trying to lock him up, for having done far far less, thereby proving (again) the iron law of woke projection. They are the tyrants, not him.

---

What MAGA doesn't get is it doesn't matter. They hate him, it is personal. Facts don't count when it is personal. He was dead as a politician when he jumped from reality TV, when the video said grab them by, and when he tweeted every thought. The Dems will mobilize heaven and earth to stop him, not because of policy but because of him. He has lost all effectiveness as an elected official. His life, campaign and rallies are "reality TV".

All of that is overlookable, but independents hate him. Suburban women would rather vote for Biden, as they did last time. There are more voters that hate him than that like him or even find him tolerable.

---

Why would we not mobilize Heaven and earth to defeat a far worse problem than Trump? You're ignoring a den of snakes in the house because you are more worried about a toad on the front porch.

---

You keep coming back to that you believe Trump can win, after 2 indictments for the 2020 election, an indictment over classified documents, his former staffers testifying against him, Jan 6th Commission, and his personality.

You are not solving the den of snakes with Trump. They want us to run Trump who is easily beatable, just let him talk or tweet he will sink himself. The only way to solve the Den of Snakes is get off the MAGA treadmill. Trump already has everyone he is going to get to vote for him, he is polarizing enough that everyone's mind is made up on him.

Want to beat the Dems and Libs, get away from the Cult of Donald. They want what is happening and are loving it.

Another MEGA genius

Sarah Palin predicts a civil war in this country because Trump is being held accountable for his crimes:

“Do you want us to be in civil war? Because that’s what’s going to happen.”

Is that a threat? pic.twitter.com/6TQlKKFziS

— Republicans against Trump (@RpsAgainstTrump) August 25, 2023

RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--

KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

Another MEGA genius

Sarah Palin predicts a civil war in this country because Trump is being held accountable for his crimes:

“Do you want us to be in civil war? Because that’s what’s going to happen.”

Is that a threat? pic.twitter.com/6TQlKKFziS

— Republicans against Trump (@RpsAgainstTrump) August 25, 2023

---

These people are nuts.

boognish_bear said:

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RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--

KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023

---

It's wild to me that a guy can go on a debate stage and TV and say that we should not only appease imperial Russia but align with them and can gain favor in one of our major political parties. That's just insane.

The responsibility for that ultimately falls at the feet war-mongering neo-cons and Clinton Democrats because their actions have swung sentiment on war so far in the other direction here (which is a good thing on its own).

But if history has taught us anything, it's that underestimating and appeasing murderous dictators with imperial aspirations never turns out well. Siding with Russia in this war is insane.

bear2be2 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--

KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023

---

It's wild to me that a guy can go on a debate stage and TV and say that we should not only appease imperial Russia but align with with them and can gain favor in one of our major political parties. That's just insane.

The responsibility for that ultimately falls at the feet war-mongering neo-cons and Clinton Democrats because their actions have swung sentiment on war so far in the other direction here (which is a good thing on its own).

But if history has taught us anything, it's that underestimating and appeasing murderous dictators with imperial aspirations never turns out well. Siding with Russia in this war is insane.

---

I don't know about imperial Russia, but not siding with modern-day Russia in this war is insane.

FLBear5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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boognish_bear said:

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bear2be2 said:

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Rawhide said:

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It's funny when liberals tell the GOP they need to dump Trump, but somehow choose not to believe they need to dump Biden.

If the dems were smart, they'd throw their support behind RFK Jr. or convince Manchin to run. Biden is as every bit polarizing as Trump. Time for the DNC to support a candidate that isn't suffering from dementia, isn't a pathological liar, allow themselves to be a puppet of the extreme left, and/or hasn't been whoring themselves out to foreign countries at the expense of America

---

The fact of the matter is both parties pick and support terrible candidates and have for some time. The last two elections have been the two worst in my lifetime, and we're about run one of those back with a couple of old men the majority of the country would prefer to see go away.

---

This. It blows my mind that in a country as big and great as ours we can't come up with better candidates to choose from. Lately it's been choosing between the lesser of two losers.

---

Here's the set of candidates available in the last 40 years:

1984: Reagan v Mondale
1988: Bush I v Dukakis
1992: Clinton v Bush I
1996: Clinton v Dole
2000: Bush II v Gore
2004: Bush II v Kerry
2008: Obama v McCain
2012: Obama v Romney
2016: Trump v Clinton
2020: Biden v Trump

Of those twenty candidates who each won a major party nomination, I count three who were really competent to do the job, and none in the last three decades.

It's all become about branding and media control. Washington or Adams would never be electable today.

---

I agree. Clinton vs Dole was the last between 2 competent administrators. Clinton was flawed personally and Dole charismatically. Dole was the picture of the best you could get in politics in integrity. But they were both more than competent.

---

Intersting comments.

Only the likes of Bush (2), Obama, Trump and Biden could make Clinton appear to be competent in retrospect.

Only Trump and Biden could make Dole appear to be young enough to be president.

KaiBear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

bear2be2 said:

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Rawhide said:

---

It's funny when liberals tell the GOP they need to dump Trump, but somehow choose not to believe they need to dump Biden.

If the dems were smart, they'd throw their support behind RFK Jr. or convince Manchin to run. Biden is as every bit polarizing as Trump. Time for the DNC to support a candidate that isn't suffering from dementia, isn't a pathological liar, allow themselves to be a puppet of the extreme left, and/or hasn't been whoring themselves out to foreign countries at the expense of America

---

The fact of the matter is both parties pick and support terrible candidates and have for some time. The last two elections have been the two worst in my lifetime, and we're about run one of those back with a couple of old men the majority of the country would prefer to see go away.

---

This. It blows my mind that in a country as big and great as ours we can't come up with better candidates to choose from. Lately it's been choosing between the lesser of two losers.

---

Here's the set of candidates available in the last 40 years:

1984: Reagan v Mondale
1988: Bush I v Dukakis
1992: Clinton v Bush I
1996: Clinton v Dole
2000: Bush II v Gore
2004: Bush II v Kerry
2008: Obama v McCain
2012: Obama v Romney
2016: Trump v Clinton
2020: Biden v Trump

Of those twenty candidates who each won a major party nomination, I count three who were really competent to do the job, and none in the last three decades.

It's all become about branding and media control. Washington or Adams would never be electable today.

---

I agree. Clinton vs Dole was the last between 2 competent administrators. Clinton was flawed personally and Dole charismatically. Dole was the picture of the best you could get in politics in integrity. But they were both more than competent.

---

Intersting comments.

Only the likes of Bush (2), Obama, Trump and Biden could make Clinton appear to be competent in retrospect.

Only Trump and Biden could make Dole appear to be young enough to be president.

---

Nice post...

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--

KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023

---

It's wild to me that a guy can go on a debate stage and TV and say that we should not only appease imperial Russia but align with with them and can gain favor in one of our major political parties. That's just insane.

The responsibility for that ultimately falls at the feet war-mongering neo-cons and Clinton Democrats because their actions have swung sentiment on war so far in the other direction here (which is a good thing on its own).

But if history has taught us anything, it's that underestimating and appeasing murderous dictators with imperial aspirations never turns out well. Siding with Russia in this war is insane.

---

I don't know about imperial Russia, but not siding with modern-day Russia in this war is insane.

---

Feel free to explain your position here. I don't think most with a firm grasp of history or any pride whatsoever in America's stated (and too often ignored) values regarding freedom, democracy and national sovereignty would hold the position you do here.

There is one person and one person only to blame for this war, and I would be ashamed to live in a country that not only sided with him but helped fund his war machine.

bear2be2 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--

KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023

---

It's wild to me that a guy can go on a debate stage and TV and say that we should not only appease imperial Russia but align with with them and can gain favor in one of our major political parties. That's just insane.

The responsibility for that ultimately falls at the feet war-mongering neo-cons and Clinton Democrats because their actions have swung sentiment on war so far in the other direction here (which is a good thing on its own).

But if history has taught us anything, it's that underestimating and appeasing murderous dictators with imperial aspirations never turns out well. Siding with Russia in this war is insane.

---

I don't know about imperial Russia, but not siding with modern-day Russia in this war is insane.

---

Feel free to explain your position here. I don't think most with a firm grasp of history or any pride whatsoever in America's stated (and too often ignored) values regarding freedom, democracy and national sovereignty would hold the position you do here.

There is one person and one person only to blame for this war, and I would be ashamed to live in a country that not only sided with him but helped fund his war machine.

---

The United States has no reason to 'side' with Putin is this war; that is absurd.

However the United States is certainly guilty of positioning Ukraine into fighting our proxy war with Russia.

bear2be2 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--

KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023

---

It's wild to me that a guy can go on a debate stage and TV and say that we should not only appease imperial Russia but align with with them and can gain favor in one of our major political parties. That's just insane.

The responsibility for that ultimately falls at the feet war-mongering neo-cons and Clinton Democrats because their actions have swung sentiment on war so far in the other direction here (which is a good thing on its own).

But if history has taught us anything, it's that underestimating and appeasing murderous dictators with imperial aspirations never turns out well. Siding with Russia in this war is insane.

---

I don't know about imperial Russia, but not siding with modern-day Russia in this war is insane.

---

Feel free to explain your position here. I don't think most with a firm grasp of history or any pride whatsoever in America's stated (and too often ignored) values regarding freedom, democracy and national sovereignty would hold the position you do here.

There is one person and one person only to blame for this war, and I would be ashamed to live in a country that not only sided with him but helped fund his war machine.

---

100% correct, bear.

bear2be2 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

Most people would be embarrassed to piss themselves in front of everyone, but you be you.

If Trump wins the nomination, any Republican who refuses to vote for him should be shot.

That's not because I want another Trump Administration, but any Republican is better than any Democrat, and predicting a loss just because it's not your guy is ****head idiocy.

Back your candidate, but stop with sandbagging candidate son our side. There are plenty of GOP candidates who would do a lousy job as President but again, any Republican is better than any Democrat.

---

Continuing to support a known and established loser is ****head idiocy.

That Republicans can't divorce themselves from/rid themselves of this cancer after the 2020 election and 2022 midterms is just insane to me. Electorally, everything Trump touches turns to ***** And he still has the Republican electorate spellbound. It's insane.

---

I've never voted for Trump in a primary and won't this time either. However, I voted for him when he was the nominee both times and will again if that's the case in 2024. Old bear has it exactly right. This shouldn't be hard to understand.

bear2be2 said:

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boognish_bear said:

---

RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--

KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023

---

It's wild to me that a guy can go on a debate stage and TV and say that we should not only appease imperial Russia but align with them and can gain favor in one of our major political parties. That's just insane.

The responsibility for that ultimately falls at the feet war-mongering neo-cons and Clinton Democrats because their actions have swung sentiment on war so far in the other direction here (which is a good thing on its own).

But if history has taught us anything, it's that underestimating and appeasing murderous dictators with imperial aspirations never turns out well. Siding with Russia in this war is insane.

---

He said he wanted to appease Russia? Align with them? I missed that.

We can't fight our way out of a wet paper sack and now that Biden has painted our military pink, we are even weaker. We haven't won a war or conflict in 70+ years. We've sure spent trillions propping up losers and corrupt nations that were willing to bend us over the barrel, have their way with us and then not even kiss us goodbye.

bear2be2 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--

KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023

---

It's wild to me that a guy can go on a debate stage and TV and say that we should not only appease imperial Russia but align with them and can gain favor in one of our major political parties. That's just insane.

The responsibility for that ultimately falls at the feet war-mongering neo-cons and Clinton Democrats because their actions have swung sentiment on war so far in the other direction here (which is a good thing on its own).

But if history has taught us anything, it's that underestimating and appeasing murderous dictators with imperial aspirations never turns out well. Siding with Russia in this war is insane.

---

It wouldn't be "siding with Russia" so much a a simply recognizing the reality on the ground; realpolitik if you will. What is the downside for the US if Russia controls a significant area with many ethnic Russians who speak Russian? Putin won't live forever. We shouldn't be financing Ukraine in what is largely a European problem. In addition, Russian demographics (much like China and much of Western Europe) are such that they will be very different places in 20-30 years. Time is not on their side.

curtpenn said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--

KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023

---

It's wild to me that a guy can go on a debate stage and TV and say that we should not only appease imperial Russia but align with them and can gain favor in one of our major political parties. That's just insane.

The responsibility for that ultimately falls at the feet war-mongering neo-cons and Clinton Democrats because their actions have swung sentiment on war so far in the other direction here (which is a good thing on its own).

But if history has taught us anything, it's that underestimating and appeasing murderous dictators with imperial aspirations never turns out well. Siding with Russia in this war is insane.

---

It wouldn't be "siding with Russia" so much a a simply recognizing the reality on the ground; realpolitik if you will. What is the downside for the US if Russia controls a significant area with many ethnic Russians who speak Russian? Putin won't live forever. We shouldn't be financing Ukraine in what is largely a European problem. In addition, Russian demographics (much like China and much of Western Europe) are such that they will be very different places in 20-30 years. Time is not on their side.

---

What's the downside? How about watching the United States, which has at least pretended to stand for liberty, freedom and democracy, lose what little credibility it has left on the world stage.

Our failed wars and nation-building efforts have already called those things into question. Siding with Russia now would officially make us the baddies.

Ukraine wants to be a sovereign democratic state. It has been fighting with limited help for a over a year now to defend its land from a hostile invader that also just happens to be most likely nation on the planet to start World War III.

If you guys want to side with Putin and Russia, that's your prerogative. But it's a patently unamerican position to do so.

KaiBear said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--

KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023

---

It's wild to me that a guy can go on a debate stage and TV and say that we should not only appease imperial Russia but align with with them and can gain favor in one of our major political parties. That's just insane.

The responsibility for that ultimately falls at the feet war-mongering neo-cons and Clinton Democrats because their actions have swung sentiment on war so far in the other direction here (which is a good thing on its own).

But if history has taught us anything, it's that underestimating and appeasing murderous dictators with imperial aspirations never turns out well. Siding with Russia in this war is insane.

---

I don't know about imperial Russia, but not siding with modern-day Russia in this war is insane.

---

Feel free to explain your position here. I don't think most with a firm grasp of history or any pride whatsoever in America's stated (and too often ignored) values regarding freedom, democracy and national sovereignty would hold the position you do here.

There is one person and one person only to blame for this war, and I would be ashamed to live in a country that not only sided with him but helped fund his war machine.

---

The United States has no reason to 'side' with Putin is this war; that is absurd.

However the United States is certainly guilty of positioning Ukraine into fighting our proxy war with Russia.

---

In what way specifically? I'm no staunch defender of America's foreign policy record, but as best I can tell, this is Russia's war any way you slice it.

Ukraine is a sovereign nation state that wants to align itself with Western democracies. They've been trying to get into NATO for years. NATO appeased Putin by respecting his threats all that time, and it still wasn't enough to stave off invasion. The blame for this war lies at one man's feet. And we shouldn't be aligning with that murderer.

bear2be2 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--

KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023

---

It's wild to me that a guy can go on a debate stage and TV and say that we should not only appease imperial Russia but align with them and can gain favor in one of our major political parties. That's just insane.

The responsibility for that ultimately falls at the feet war-mongering neo-cons and Clinton Democrats because their actions have swung sentiment on war so far in the other direction here (which is a good thing on its own).

But if history has taught us anything, it's that underestimating and appeasing murderous dictators with imperial aspirations never turns out well. Siding with Russia in this war is insane.

---

It wouldn't be "siding with Russia" so much a a simply recognizing the reality on the ground; realpolitik if you will. What is the downside for the US if Russia controls a significant area with many ethnic Russians who speak Russian? Putin won't live forever. We shouldn't be financing Ukraine in what is largely a European problem. In addition, Russian demographics (much like China and much of Western Europe) are such that they will be very different places in 20-30 years. Time is not on their side.

---

What's the downside? How about watching the United States, which has at least pretended to stand for liberty, freedom and democracy, lose what little credibility it has left on the world stage.

Our failed wars and nation-building efforts have already called those things into question. Siding with Russia now would officially make us the baddies.

Ukraine wants to be a sovereign democratic state. It has been fighting with limited help for a over a year now to defend its land from a hostile invader that also just happens to be most likely nation on the planet to start World War III.

If you guys want to side with Putin and Russia, that's your prerogative. But it's a patently unamerican position to do so.

---

Explain for us how we can be "baddies" in a world where we are not exactly beloved to begin with. Not sending billions to Ukraine is not "siding with Putin".
There is no requirement for us to side with anyone. Some day Putin will be gone. It is in our best interest to cultivate relationships with Russia with whom we have a greater cultural connection to serve as a countervailing force contra China.

bear2be2 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--

KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023

---

It's wild to me that a guy can go on a debate stage and TV and say that we should not only appease imperial Russia but align with them and can gain favor in one of our major political parties. That's just insane.

The responsibility for that ultimately falls at the feet war-mongering neo-cons and Clinton Democrats because their actions have swung sentiment on war so far in the other direction here (which is a good thing on its own).

But if history has taught us anything, it's that underestimating and appeasing murderous dictators with imperial aspirations never turns out well. Siding with Russia in this war is insane.

---

We shouldn't be sending billions of dollars of cash and military hardware to Ukraine. They are not a NATO country.

I thought liberals used to get really pissed off when we got involved in other people's wars. What changed?

https://www.cato.org/commentary/us-should-stay-out-russo-ukrainian-quarrel-why-conflict-ukraine-isnt-americas-business#

It's not a very good decision for biden and his 'ettes' to ignore the deepening military partnership between China/Russia

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/russia-and-china-unveil-a-pact-against-america-and-the-west

beware remalamadingdong.

too glib.

recent dem convert.

- kkm

let him simmer for a decade.

D!

>>
Aug. 25, 2023, 9:55 PM UTC
By Dareh Gregorian
Vivek Ramaswamy is one of the highest-profile candidates seeking the GOP presidential nomination, but he has not voted in a Republican primary recently enough to be affiliated with the party in his home state's voting records.

Ramaswamy, 38, is listed as an "unaffiliated" voter in Franklin County, Ohio, where he's been registered to vote since November 2021, after he moved to Columbus.

The biotech multimillionaire has described himself as being a "libertarian freestyler" in college.

KaiBear said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--

KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023

---

It's wild to me that a guy can go on a debate stage and TV and say that we should not only appease imperial Russia but align with with them and can gain favor in one of our major political parties. That's just insane.

The responsibility for that ultimately falls at the feet war-mongering neo-cons and Clinton Democrats because their actions have swung sentiment on war so far in the other direction here (which is a good thing on its own).

But if history has taught us anything, it's that underestimating and appeasing murderous dictators with imperial aspirations never turns out well. Siding with Russia in this war is insane.

---

I don't know about imperial Russia, but not siding with modern-day Russia in this war is insane.

---

Feel free to explain your position here. I don't think most with a firm grasp of history or any pride whatsoever in America's stated (and too often ignored) values regarding freedom, democracy and national sovereignty would hold the position you do here.

There is one person and one person only to blame for this war, and I would be ashamed to live in a country that not only sided with him but helped fund his war machine.

---

The United States has no reason to 'side' with Putin is this war; that is absurd.

However the United States is certainly guilty of positioning Ukraine into fighting our proxy war with Russia.

---

The US is guilty of a lot of things that were questionable but helping and trying other Nations attain freedom of democratic rule is not one of them. At the end of the day, the Nations the US "helped" have the right of free rule and we have stood by even if they do things we don't agree, such as Germany, Japan, Korea, Phillipines, Israel, Iraq, etc... I expect the same with Ukraine.

I am not sure you can say that about Putin. I can't see how anyone that knows US history from Wilson to FDR to Eisenhower to Reagan can say the US has no interest beyond our shores. To do back to 1790 and say George Washington said not to get involved shows a lack of understanding of today's world.

"It's not a very good decision for biden and his 'ettes' to ignore the deepening military partnership between China/Russia"

We aren't ignoring it. We are currently crippling one leg of that alliance at a bargain cost, but for some reason you are arguing Russia's position for them.

Biden has Russia bent over a barrel and is going in raw, while maintaining eye contact with China as a warning. It is frankly shaping up to be one of the strongest US foreign policy actions in a long time, but since Biden is a Democrat you are conditioned to reflexively hate it.

The same people who spent years asking dumb questions like "why would Russia support Trump/Republicans??" are now saying we should just let Russia do whatever they want without resistance, as if adding 2 and 2 together is too difficult. It's especially ironic coming from a poster with Ronald Reagan as his avatar...

BRICS is also something that cannot be ignored. The other world is ganging up on us.

bear2be2 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--

KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023

---

It's wild to me that a guy can go on a debate stage and TV and say that we should not only appease imperial Russia but align with with them and can gain favor in one of our major political parties. That's just insane.

The responsibility for that ultimately falls at the feet war-mongering neo-cons and Clinton Democrats because their actions have swung sentiment on war so far in the other direction here (which is a good thing on its own).

But if history has taught us anything, it's that underestimating and appeasing murderous dictators with imperial aspirations never turns out well. Siding with Russia in this war is insane.

---

I don't know about imperial Russia, but not siding with modern-day Russia in this war is insane.

---

Feel free to explain your position here. I don't think most with a firm grasp of history or any pride whatsoever in America's stated (and too often ignored) values regarding freedom, democracy and national sovereignty would hold the position you do here.

There is one person and one person only to blame for this war, and I would be ashamed to live in a country that not only sided with him but helped fund his war machine.

---

Many proud and distinguished Americans have lamented the folly and cruelty of our foreign policy. We've supported far worse regimes than Putin's when it served our purposes. Ukraine itself is no democracy in any meaningful sense. It's a corrupt, repressive state led by an American puppet.

We need to be on the side of reality, and the reality is that Russia won this war before it started. They took years to prepare, and we didn't. It isn't a vital interest for us. It is for Russia. They were provoked, and they acted much the same as we would. NATO had become a source of instability rather than stability. It needed boundaries.

The sooner the war ends, the better. There's always the risk that it could escalate or spread. Wantonly sacrificing lives in a futile cause is a crime, and we're more than complicit in that crime. We could stop it tomorrow if we wanted.

Sure would be nice to have a huge Pacific trading deal to counter that then, wouldn't it? We could call it something like...a Trans Pacific Partnership. Who was it that trashed that deal again?

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--

KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023

---

It's wild to me that a guy can go on a debate stage and TV and say that we should not only appease imperial Russia but align with with them and can gain favor in one of our major political parties. That's just insane.

The responsibility for that ultimately falls at the feet war-mongering neo-cons and Clinton Democrats because their actions have swung sentiment on war so far in the other direction here (which is a good thing on its own).

But if history has taught us anything, it's that underestimating and appeasing murderous dictators with imperial aspirations never turns out well. Siding with Russia in this war is insane.

---

I don't know about imperial Russia, but not siding with modern-day Russia in this war is insane.

---

Feel free to explain your position here. I don't think most with a firm grasp of history or any pride whatsoever in America's stated (and too often ignored) values regarding freedom, democracy and national sovereignty would hold the position you do here.

There is one person and one person only to blame for this war, and I would be ashamed to live in a country that not only sided with him but helped fund his war machine.

---

The United States has no reason to 'side' with Putin is this war; that is absurd.

However the United States is certainly guilty of positioning Ukraine into fighting our proxy war with Russia.

---

The US is guilty of a lot of things that were questionable but helping and trying other Nations attain freedom of democratic rule is not one of them. At the end of the day, the Nations the US "helped" have the right of free rule and we have stood by even if they do things we don't agree, such as Germany, Japan, Korea, Phillipines, Israel, Iraq, etc... I expect the same with Ukraine.

I am not sure you can say that about Putin. I can't see how anyone that knows US history from Wilson to FDR to Eisenhower to Reagan can say the US has no interest beyond our shores. To do back to 1790 and say George Washington said not to get involved shows a lack of understanding of today's world.

---

Anyone who knows history understands that empires crumble once they become financially overextended. We must be selective and smart in how we engage with the world. Don't see a surplus of selective and smart in DC these days. There's a further question of defining our "interests". Are we willing to spend billions to "make the world safe" for Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, Disney, Netflix, et al? We must look beyond arbitrary lines drawn on maps a al Sikes-Picot or the Russian Pale of Settlement and understand that modern Ukraine occupies a space of great flux with centuries of cultural shift. It is a particularly American conceit that we can direct these forces to our liking. Fwiw, I believe much of this applies equally to Taiwan, but that's for another thread.

william said:

---

beware remalamadingdong.

too glib.

recent dem convert.

- kkm

let him simmer for a decade.

D!

>>
Aug. 25, 2023, 9:55 PM UTC
By Dareh Gregorian
Vivek Ramaswamy is one of the highest-profile candidates seeking the GOP presidential nomination, but he has not voted in a Republican primary recently enough to be affiliated with the party in his home state's voting records.

Ramaswamy, 38, is listed as an "unaffiliated" voter in Franklin County, Ohio, where he's been registered to vote since November 2021, after he moved to Columbus.

The biotech multimillionaire has described himself as being a "libertarian freestyler" in college.

---

good info

+1

Vivek is merely a media darling who can not possibly win the 2024 general election.

I am just not comfortable with Ramaswamy's foreign policy positions. His broad brushed statement "all of you are bought and paid for" was a little over the top. For now, I do not trust him.

That being said, I will easily vote for Vivek over a Biden, Harris, Clinton, Obama, or Newsom.

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--

KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023

---

It's wild to me that a guy can go on a debate stage and TV and say that we should not only appease imperial Russia but align with with them and can gain favor in one of our major political parties. That's just insane.

The responsibility for that ultimately falls at the feet war-mongering neo-cons and Clinton Democrats because their actions have swung sentiment on war so far in the other direction here (which is a good thing on its own).

But if history has taught us anything, it's that underestimating and appeasing murderous dictators with imperial aspirations never turns out well. Siding with Russia in this war is insane.

---

I don't know about imperial Russia, but not siding with modern-day Russia in this war is insane.

---

Feel free to explain your position here. I don't think most with a firm grasp of history or any pride whatsoever in America's stated (and too often ignored) values regarding freedom, democracy and national sovereignty would hold the position you do here.

There is one person and one person only to blame for this war, and I would be ashamed to live in a country that not only sided with him but helped fund his war machine.

---

Many proud and distinguished Americans have lamented the folly and cruelty of our foreign policy. We've supported far worse regimes than Putin's when it served our purposes. Ukraine itself is no democracy in any meaningful sense. It's a corrupt, repressive state led by an American puppet.

We need to be on the side of reality, and the reality is that Russia won this war before it started. They took years to prepare, and we didn't. It isn't a vital interest for us. It is for Russia. They were provoked, and they acted much the same as we would. NATO had become a source of instability rather than stability. It needed boundaries.

The sooner the war ends, the better. There's always the risk that it could escalate or spread. Wantonly sacrificing lives in a futile cause is a crime, and we're more than complicit in that crime. We could stop it tomorrow if we wanted.

---

Provoked in what way specifically? This is the same as the "proxy war" charge. The Soviet Union fell. Russia doesn't get to determine what former Soviet nations do, how they choose to govern themselves or who they choose to align with.

You're carrying water for a murderous dictator here and spouting pro-Russia talking points, Sam.

And to compare this to America's other post-WWII military entanglements is disingenuous.

A) We were the aggressor in most of those.
B) We put boots on the ground in many of those cases.
And C) We weren't dealing with an enemy capable of ending humanity.

This is a really simple war that is happening for one reason and one reason only. Because Vladimir Putin started it. He invaded a sovereign nation -- after being appeased time and again by NATO. This is Russia's war. Period.

curtpenn said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--

KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023

---

It's wild to me that a guy can go on a debate stage and TV and say that we should not only appease imperial Russia but align with with them and can gain favor in one of our major political parties. That's just insane.

The responsibility for that ultimately falls at the feet war-mongering neo-cons and Clinton Democrats because their actions have swung sentiment on war so far in the other direction here (which is a good thing on its own).

But if history has taught us anything, it's that underestimating and appeasing murderous dictators with imperial aspirations never turns out well. Siding with Russia in this war is insane.

---

I don't know about imperial Russia, but not siding with modern-day Russia in this war is insane.

---

Feel free to explain your position here. I don't think most with a firm grasp of history or any pride whatsoever in America's stated (and too often ignored) values regarding freedom, democracy and national sovereignty would hold the position you do here.

There is one person and one person only to blame for this war, and I would be ashamed to live in a country that not only sided with him but helped fund his war machine.

---

The United States has no reason to 'side' with Putin is this war; that is absurd.

However the United States is certainly guilty of positioning Ukraine into fighting our proxy war with Russia.

---

The US is guilty of a lot of things that were questionable but helping and trying other Nations attain freedom of democratic rule is not one of them. At the end of the day, the Nations the US "helped" have the right of free rule and we have stood by even if they do things we don't agree, such as Germany, Japan, Korea, Phillipines, Israel, Iraq, etc... I expect the same with Ukraine.

I am not sure you can say that about Putin. I can't see how anyone that knows US history from Wilson to FDR to Eisenhower to Reagan can say the US has no interest beyond our shores. To do back to 1790 and say George Washington said not to get involved shows a lack of understanding of today's world.

---

Anyone who knows history understands that empires crumble once they become financially overextended. We must be selective and smart in how we engage with the world. Don't see a surplus of selective and smart in DC these days. There's a further question of defining our "interests". Are we willing to spend billions to "make the world safe" for Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, Disney, Netflix, et al? We must look beyond arbitrary lines drawn on maps a al Sikes-Picot or the Russian Pale of Settlement and understand that modern Ukraine occupies a space of great flux with centuries of cultural shift. It is a particularly American conceit that we can direct these forces to our liking. Fwiw, I believe much of this applies equally to Taiwan, but that's for another thread.

---

I agree with you on the financially overextended. You have to be able to help yourself before helping others. No arguement. There is a huge spectrum between bankrupting ourselves and just cheering them on.

Direct to our liking? Ukraine is asking for help and clearly does not want to be under the Russian sphere of influence. If up to Ukraine, they would be in the EU and NATO. Ukraine is a response to a request, not the US directing. Ask Taiwan, what do they want? Does that count? Or, is that a fake line too? Worked out well for Hong Kong, huh? Real garden spot now...

As for the others, we are a Capitalist society. It is in the US best interest for our Companies to be able to have access to the most markets and compete. I do agree there are reforms that need to be re-visited in regulatory requirements and serving two masters. No question.

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--

KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023

---

It's wild to me that a guy can go on a debate stage and TV and say that we should not only appease imperial Russia but align with with them and can gain favor in one of our major political parties. That's just insane.

The responsibility for that ultimately falls at the feet war-mongering neo-cons and Clinton Democrats because their actions have swung sentiment on war so far in the other direction here (which is a good thing on its own).

But if history has taught us anything, it's that underestimating and appeasing murderous dictators with imperial aspirations never turns out well. Siding with Russia in this war is insane.

---

I don't know about imperial Russia, but not siding with modern-day Russia in this war is insane.

---

Feel free to explain your position here. I don't think most with a firm grasp of history or any pride whatsoever in America's stated (and too often ignored) values regarding freedom, democracy and national sovereignty would hold the position you do here.

There is one person and one person only to blame for this war, and I would be ashamed to live in a country that not only sided with him but helped fund his war machine.

---

Many proud and distinguished Americans have lamented the folly and cruelty of our foreign policy. We've supported far worse regimes than Putin's when it served our purposes. Ukraine itself is no democracy in any meaningful sense. It's a corrupt, repressive state led by an American puppet.

We need to be on the side of reality, and the reality is that Russia won this war before it started. They took years to prepare, and we didn't. It isn't a vital interest for us. It is for Russia. They were provoked, and they acted much the same as we would. NATO had become a source of instability rather than stability. It needed boundaries.

The sooner the war ends, the better. There's always the risk that it could escalate or spread. Wantonly sacrificing lives in a futile cause is a crime, and we're more than complicit in that crime. We could stop it tomorrow if we wanted.

---

However one characterizes the Ukrainian government, it is obvious that the people of Ukraine are willing to endure enormous sacrifice to not be Russian citizens.

The less influence Vladimir Putin has in the world, the better.

Combined, those two things make supporting the Ukrainians the right thing to do, IMHO. It's expensive but money better spent then at least 70% of the federal budget.

Finally, you say it is a futile effort. I don't see it. The Russians are not going to be able to make Ukraine a puppet state even if Ukraine can't completely eject Russia from their current territorial gains.

The rational settlement would be to cede some of that territory in exchange for agreed Ukrainian NATO membership. Hopefully something like that happens in the near future because the one thing we agree on is the war ending soon would be a good thing.

HuMcK said:

---

"It's not a very good decision for biden and his 'ettes' to ignore the deepening military partnership between China/Russia"

We aren't ignoring it. We are currently crippling one leg of that alliance at a bargain cost, but for some reason you are arguing Russia's position for them.

Biden has Russia bent over a barrel and is going in raw, while maintaining eye contact with China as a warning. It is frankly shaping up to be one of the strongest US foreign policy actions in a long time, but since Biden is a Democrat you are conditioned to reflexively hate it.

The same people who spent years asking dumb questions like "why would Russia support Trump/Republicans??" are now saying we should just let Russia do whatever they want without resistance, as if adding 2 and 2 together is too difficult. It's especially ironic coming from a poster with Ronald Reagan as his avatar...

---

lol... okay, that's pretty funny. Kudos for the comedy

"Biden has Russia bent over a barrel" - that's pure comedy gold.

Almost as funny as "Since Biden is a Democrats you're are conditioned to reflexively hate it" - Says the most partisan hack on this board.

I thought you libtards hate when America gets in everyone's business and help fight everyone else's wars.. I guess since it's a democrat, it's okay.

FLBear5630 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--

KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023

---

It's wild to me that a guy can go on a debate stage and TV and say that we should not only appease imperial Russia but align with with them and can gain favor in one of our major political parties. That's just insane.

The responsibility for that ultimately falls at the feet war-mongering neo-cons and Clinton Democrats because their actions have swung sentiment on war so far in the other direction here (which is a good thing on its own).

But if history has taught us anything, it's that underestimating and appeasing murderous dictators with imperial aspirations never turns out well. Siding with Russia in this war is insane.

---

I don't know about imperial Russia, but not siding with modern-day Russia in this war is insane.

---

Feel free to explain your position here. I don't think most with a firm grasp of history or any pride whatsoever in America's stated (and too often ignored) values regarding freedom, democracy and national sovereignty would hold the position you do here.

There is one person and one person only to blame for this war, and I would be ashamed to live in a country that not only sided with him but helped fund his war machine.

---

The United States has no reason to 'side' with Putin is this war; that is absurd.

However the United States is certainly guilty of positioning Ukraine into fighting our proxy war with Russia.

---

The US is guilty of a lot of things that were questionable but helping and trying other Nations attain freedom of democratic rule is not one of them. At the end of the day, the Nations the US "helped" have the right of free rule and we have stood by even if they do things we don't agree, such as Germany, Japan, Korea, Phillipines, Israel, Iraq, etc... I expect the same with Ukraine.

I am not sure you can say that about Putin. I can't see how anyone that knows US history from Wilson to FDR to Eisenhower to Reagan can say the US has no interest beyond our shores. To do back to 1790 and say George Washington said not to get involved shows a lack of understanding of today's world.

---

Anyone who knows history understands that empires crumble once they become financially overextended. We must be selective and smart in how we engage with the world. Don't see a surplus of selective and smart in DC these days. There's a further question of defining our "interests". Are we willing to spend billions to "make the world safe" for Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, Disney, Netflix, et al? We must look beyond arbitrary lines drawn on maps a al Sikes-Picot or the Russian Pale of Settlement and understand that modern Ukraine occupies a space of great flux with centuries of cultural shift. It is a particularly American conceit that we can direct these forces to our liking. Fwiw, I believe much of this applies equally to Taiwan, but that's for another thread.

---

I agree with you on the financially overextended. You have to be able to help yourself before helping others. No arguement. There is a huge spectrum between bankrupting ourselves and just cheering them on.

Direct to our liking? Ukraine is asking for help and clearly does not want to be under the Russian sphere of influence. If up to Ukraine, they would be in the EU and NATO. Ukraine is a response to a request, not the US directing. Ask Taiwan, what do they want? Does that count? Or, is that a fake line too? Worked out well for Hong Kong, huh? Real garden spot now...

As for the others, we are a Capitalist society. It is in the US best interest for our Companies to be able to have access to the most markets and compete. I do agree there are reforms that need to be re-visited in regulatory requirements and serving two masters. No question.

---

What of the ethnic Russians in Crimea and the eastern portions of what is now identified as "Ukraine"? My point is what we now call Ukraine has a long history of flux. What is happening now has been happening for centuries. This is to be expected as the norm. It's not our responsibility to make things "right" as that is likely impossible for us to work out. Same thing with Hong Kong or Taiwan. No Americans should die for any of these nor should we fund any of these excessively. I have no confidence in our government to make good decisions. Bottom line: stay away from it and protect our own borders.

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

bear2be2 said:

---

boognish_bear said:

---

RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--

KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023

---

It's wild to me that a guy can go on a debate stage and TV and say that we should not only appease imperial Russia but align with with them and can gain favor in one of our major political parties. That's just insane.

The responsibility for that ultimately falls at the feet war-mongering neo-cons and Clinton Democrats because their actions have swung sentiment on war so far in the other direction here (which is a good thing on its own).

But if history has taught us anything, it's that underestimating and appeasing murderous dictators with imperial aspirations never turns out well. Siding with Russia in this war is insane.

---

I don't know about imperial Russia, but not siding with modern-day Russia in this war is insane.

---

Feel free to explain your position here. I don't think most with a firm grasp of history or any pride whatsoever in America's stated (and too often ignored) values regarding freedom, democracy and national sovereignty would hold the position you do here.

There is one person and one person only to blame for this war, and I would be ashamed to live in a country that not only sided with him but helped fund his war machine.

---

Many proud and distinguished Americans have lamented the folly and cruelty of our foreign policy. We've supported far worse regimes than Putin's when it served our purposes. Ukraine itself is no democracy in any meaningful sense. It's a corrupt, repressive state led by an American puppet.

We need to be on the side of reality, and the reality is that Russia won this war before it started. They took years to prepare, and we didn't. It isn't a vital interest for us. It is for Russia. They were provoked, and they acted much the same as we would. NATO had become a source of instability rather than stability. It needed boundaries.

The sooner the war ends, the better. There's always the risk that it could escalate or spread. Wantonly sacrificing lives in a futile cause is a crime, and we're more than complicit in that crime. We could stop it tomorrow if we wanted.

---

Not a word true, vatnik.