We're doing no such thing. What we're doing is economically supporting a friendly country that was attacked by Russia and has no interest in ceding any more of its sovereign land to its invader.KaiBear said:bear2be2 said:You're mistaking (failed) Russian appeasement for some more sinister American/NATO motive of your creation.KaiBear said:Why isn't NATO admitting Ukraine if this was the issue to begin with ?bear2be2 said:You mean Russia's agreement with a puppet head of state, who was eventually run out on a rail ... to Russia?Sam Lowry said:We'll never understand Russia's rationale if the fact that it's Russian is all it takes to negate it. That's circular reasoning.bear2be2 said:The answer to both questions is Russian appeasement. And it still didn't stop Putin from invading.KaiBear said:The details have been pointed out by me and others several times over the last 7 months.bear2be2 said:Provoked in what way specifically?Sam Lowry said:Many proud and distinguished Americans have lamented the folly and cruelty of our foreign policy. We've supported far worse regimes than Putin's when it served our purposes. Ukraine itself is no democracy in any meaningful sense. It's a corrupt, repressive state led by an American puppet.bear2be2 said:Feel free to explain your position here. I don't think most with a firm grasp of history or any pride whatsoever in America's stated (and too often ignored) values regarding freedom, democracy and national sovereignty would hold the position you do here.Sam Lowry said:I don't know about imperial Russia, but not siding with modern-day Russia in this war is insane.bear2be2 said:It's wild to me that a guy can go on a debate stage and TV and say that we should not only appease imperial Russia but align with with them and can gain favor in one of our major political parties. That's just insane.boognish_bear said:RAMASWAMY: We can actually go the other direction. Reopen economic relations with Russia. Freeze the current lines of control--
— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) August 25, 2023
KILMEADE: So let Russia take 20 percent of the country? pic.twitter.com/gzFseR8NAO
The responsibility for that ultimately falls at the feet war-mongering neo-cons and Clinton Democrats because their actions have swung sentiment on war so far in the other direction here (which is a good thing on its own).
But if history has taught us anything, it's that underestimating and appeasing murderous dictators with imperial aspirations never turns out well. Siding with Russia in this war is insane.
There is one person and one person only to blame for this war, and I would be ashamed to live in a country that not only sided with him but helped fund his war machine.
We need to be on the side of reality, and the reality is that Russia won this war before it started. They took years to prepare, and we didn't. It isn't a vital interest for us. It is for Russia. They were provoked, and they acted much the same as we would. NATO had become a source of instability rather than stability. It needed boundaries.
The sooner the war ends, the better. There's always the risk that it could escalate or spread. Wantonly sacrificing lives in a futile cause is a crime, and we're more than complicit in that crime. We could stop it tomorrow if we wanted.
And with all due respect I am too tired to do it still again.
Just ask yourself:
1. What happened to Ukraine's nuclear stockpile ?
2. If this war is about Ukraine membership into NATO; why isn't Ukraine in NATO right NOW ?
This is Putin's war, and you guys are regurgitating his warped rationale.
As a sovereign state, Ukraine doesn't owe Russia "neutrality" any more than we owe Britain fealty. The entire concept is nonsense.
If Russia's agreements with Ukraine mean nothing, then neither do ours. You can't have it both ways.
The Soviet Union fell. Russia doesn't get to control what former Soviet states do anymore, regardless of what Putin believes. No one has done more than Putin has to push Ukraine toward democracy and an ideological alignment with the Western world.
Thousands of people are already dead, millions forced to leave their homes.
Yet now when Ukraine needs NATO the most, magically no invitation shows up.
Really think Russia invades Ukraine if they still had their nuclear stockpile; one of the largest in the world ?
It was the US that convinced Urkraine to give them up; not Russia.
Ukraine was disarmed and not admitted to NATO because the West didn't want war with Russia. Unfortunately, Russia has all but insisted on it. Appeasement doesn't work.
The United States is using the blood of Ukrainians to fight a proxy war with Russia in the hope of deposing Putin.
A reprehensible act.
And only those filled with 'my country right or wrong' jingoism ( or the inability to study the events leading up to the war ) can fail to admit it .
Brokering a peace deal here, which is no more our place than fighting this war, would only be appeasing Russia and eroding at the freedom and sovereignty of Ukraine, which is far more reprehensible than allowing a country that desires to be free to continue the fight for its freedom.
Russia could end the fighting any time they want to. They're quite literally the only reason there's any fighting at all. Invading Ukraine was reprehensible. And so, too, would be rewarding Russia's decision to do so with further appeasement.