Here's Vivek Ramaswamy in 2015, scamming the public on his Alzheimer drug that had already failed drug trials 4 times before he bought it for pennies.
— Financelot (@FinanceLancelot) August 30, 2023
He rebranded it & took the company public in an IPO. Then he & his family dumped $2 billion of stock before it failed again. https://t.co/NX2xx7vTXE pic.twitter.com/JlSDQEpjy9
Vivek Ramaswamy - GOP Candidate for President
36,285 Views |
366 Replies |
Last: 2 yr ago by boognish_bear
So, how much money did you lay down at the sports book for Ukraine to win the game?bear2be2 said:Clearly you haven't paid much attention to Ukraine's history since the fall of the Soviet Union. Equating government corruption to an acceptance of such by the people is silly.Doc Holliday said:No they won't. Ukraine has been one of the most corrupt countries on the planet for a long ass time and their people haven't done squat about it.bear2be2 said:No one will need to tell the Ukrainian people. If this is a long-term threat to their voting rights, they'll do the same thing to Zelensky they've done to past leaders that tried to overreach their authority or circumvent the will of the people.muddybrazos said:bear2be2 said:There's a pretty simple way to figure out which side is the right one from both a historical and moral standpoint. It's the one that doesn't try to remove all agency from and ignore the wishes of the Ukrainian people, who have repeatedly and with their own blood told us they don't want to be ruled or controlled by Russia or its puppets.whiterock said:Every one of those bullet points can be footnoted to uncontested history.Sam Lowry said:8:00 - 8:50 MWFwhiterock said:Well, you have pointed out a disjointed argument that begs a question plainly at odds with history.Quote:Quote:why is it reprehensible?Quote:Quote:You're mistaking (failed) Russian appeasement for some more sinister American/NATO motive of your creation.Quote:Why isn't NATO admitting Ukraine if this was the issue to begin with ?Quote:You mean Russia's agreement with a puppet head of state, who was eventually run out on a rail ... to Russia?Quote:
We'll never understand Russia's rationale if the fact that it's Russian is all it takes to negate it. That's circular reasoning.
If Russia's agreements with Ukraine mean nothing, then neither do ours. You can't have it both ways.
The Soviet Union fell. Russia doesn't get to control what former Soviet states do anymore, regardless of what Putin believes. No one has done more than Putin has to push Ukraine toward democracy and an ideological alignment with the Western world.
Thousands of people are already dead, millions forced to leave their homes.
Yet now when Ukraine needs NATO the most, magically no invitation shows up.
Really think Russia invades Ukraine if they still had their nuclear stockpile; one of the largest in the world ?
It was the US that convinced Urkraine to give them up; not Russia.
Ukraine was disarmed and not admitted to NATO because the West didn't want war with Russia. Unfortunately, Russia has all but insisted on it. Appeasement doesn't work.
The United States is using the blood of Ukrainians to fight a proxy war with Russia in the hope of deposing Putin.
A reprehensible act.
And only those filled with 'my country right or wrong' jingoism ( or the inability to study the events leading up to the war ) can fail to admit it .
The Ukes are highly motivated to fight to expel an invading army. How could it possibly be immoral to support them?
Sam and I have repeatedly pointed out how Ukraine was manipulated into this war.
How they can't even negotiate an end to the war without US approval.
You simply chop to ignore the realities, which of course is your right.
Here's a timeline:
-Yanukovich )who hailed from Donbas) was popularly elected promising to continue a pro-EU platform.
-In response to RUSSIAN pressure, Yanukovich vetoed the EU bill he'd promised to support.
-The Ukrainian Parliament removed Yanukovich from office.
-RUSSIA started a "little green men" spec op in Donbass.
-RUSSIA seized Crimea.
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Poroshenko
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Zelensky
-RUSSIA invaded Ukraine.
Facts are facts.
There would be no war in Ukraine had Russia not invaded it THREE TIMES in the last 10 years. The idea that USA somehow manipulated all the actors involved to take actions which would lead to war....a war that threatens US and NATO interests in the region...is just plain goofy. To the extent that your arguments against further US military support for Ukraine is premised on such faulty history, it undermines your entire argument (which is laced with all kinds of ignorance of history and the dynamics of world affairs.)
Now, all that said, there are principled grounds to oppose further funding, foremost of which are the varied budgetary reasons. They are at best not persuasive. Ergo our continued support with strong support of the American public, who at least in the main grasp that Russian victory is bad and Ukrainian victory is good.
Propaganda 101
Prof. J. Whiterock (BS, 2023)
The "blame America for the Ukraine War" cannot.
We can talk all we want about the effectiveness of the Ukrainian government or the United States' role in that region, but the Ukrainian people themselves want a free democracy and they've resisted (sometimes violently) every time Russian interference has put that in jeopardy.Dictator Zelensky shouldn’t get another fucking penny! pic.twitter.com/U5KwgnNgvM
— Gunther Eagleman™ (@GuntherEagleman) August 28, 2023
Someone should tell the Ukranian people that they dont get a free democracy bc their president is a tyrant.
That's my point. The Ukrainian people want democracy. And they've proven on a number of occasions they'll fight for it. Zelensky would be foolish to overplay his hand where elections are concerned.
Like most new democracies, Ukraine has had its hiccups, but the people have steadfastly stood on the side of free, democratic rule. And those who have tried to circumvent that have been summarily rejected and eventually ousted.
To suggest they "haven't done squat" is patently false. It's a ridiculously ignorant take.
Vivek is smooth. Perhaps too smooth. Like what he says, but then again, he's too much of a smooth talker.Redbrickbear said:Here's Vivek Ramaswamy in 2015, scamming the public on his Alzheimer drug that had already failed drug trials 4 times before he bought it for pennies.
— Financelot (@FinanceLancelot) August 30, 2023
He rebranded it & took the company public in an IPO. Then he & his family dumped $2 billion of stock before it failed again. https://t.co/NX2xx7vTXE pic.twitter.com/JlSDQEpjy9
Jack Bauer said:
MSNBC asking Vivek for evidence.
MSNBC providing Vivek evidence - "A guy in Florida says..."Clueless MSNBC host sits in stunned silence as Vivek Ramaswamy exposes the climate change scam pic.twitter.com/YFaSMlVOkp
— Young Americans for Liberty (@YALiberty) August 30, 2023
He is right on the climate, just so damn annoying.
A Cat 3 hurricane hitting the Gulf Coast Labor Day week? It is so common it is cliche. This is the peak time for hurricanes here, late August thru September. It is like being shocked over a blizzard in January.
Growing up, I remember it was all about the "new ice age". Then it changed and it was all about "acid rain", then the sea levels, then global warming, now climate change
This crisis is nothing more than scam designed to separate people from their money through, regulations, guilt, virtue signaling and/or taxes.
A huge grift embraced by politcians to they can funnel taxpayer money to their "green" campaign donors and their companies that turn around and donate huge sums of money back to Washington DC.
The average American is getting ripped off while the rich men North of Richmond are raking in money hand over fist.
Of course, the modern hippie has bought into hook line and sinker because it gives these professional activists something to fight over and provides them content for their cause of the day.
What was it, 30 years ago? The environmentalists were screaming about "SAVE THE TREES!!" We must abandon paper sacks in favor of plastic bags... yeah, the ocean thanks you very much.
This crisis is nothing more than scam designed to separate people from their money through, regulations, guilt, virtue signaling and/or taxes.
A huge grift embraced by politcians to they can funnel taxpayer money to their "green" campaign donors and their companies that turn around and donate huge sums of money back to Washington DC.
The average American is getting ripped off while the rich men North of Richmond are raking in money hand over fist.
Of course, the modern hippie has bought into hook line and sinker because it gives these professional activists something to fight over and provides them content for their cause of the day.
What was it, 30 years ago? The environmentalists were screaming about "SAVE THE TREES!!" We must abandon paper sacks in favor of plastic bags... yeah, the ocean thanks you very much.
Rawhide said:
Growing up, I remember it was all about the "new ice age". Then it changed and it was all about "acid rain", then the sea levels, then global warming, now climate change
This crisis is nothing more than scam designed to separate people from their money through, regulations, guilt, virtue signaling and/or taxes.
A huge grift embraced by politcians to they can funnel taxpayer money to their "green" campaign donors and their companies that turn around and donate huge somes of money back to Washington DC.
The average American is getting ripped off while the rich men North of Richmond are raking in money hand over fist.
Of course, the modern hippie has bought into hook line and sinker because it gives these professional activists something to fight over and provides them content for their cause of the day.
What was it, 30 years ago? The environmentalists were screaming about "SAVE THE TREES!!" We must abandon paper sacks in favor of plastic bags... yeah, the ocean thanks you very much.
Oh yea I remember that stuff.
I don't know how old you are.....I am in my 30s
But clearly remember "a new Ice age will be coming from man made causes" being pushed in school when I was very young.
And Captain Planet cartoons (that I enjoyed watching) were pushing the idea that Acid rain was gonna kill us and destroy most of the trees on earth.
Later on the narrative that global temps were gonna fry us all became the more dominate narrative.
It is getting worse. Take this storm yesterday, it is Aug-Sep. A Cat 3 from the Caribbean is what we expect this time of year. We watch what is coming from Africa and the Caribbean. Aug-Sep is the literal peak of hurricane season. Yet, listen to the media global warming made it worse... Really?Redbrickbear said:Rawhide said:
Growing up, I remember it was all about the "new ice age". Then it changed and it was all about "acid rain", then the sea levels, then global warming, now climate change
This crisis is nothing more than scam designed to separate people from their money through, regulations, guilt, virtue signaling and/or taxes.
A huge grift embraced by politcians to they can funnel taxpayer money to their "green" campaign donors and their companies that turn around and donate huge somes of money back to Washington DC.
The average American is getting ripped off while the rich men North of Richmond are raking in money hand over fist.
Of course, the modern hippie has bought into hook line and sinker because it gives these professional activists something to fight over and provides them content for their cause of the day.
What was it, 30 years ago? The environmentalists were screaming about "SAVE THE TREES!!" We must abandon paper sacks in favor of plastic bags... yeah, the ocean thanks you very much.
Oh yea I remember that stuff.
I don't know how old you are.....I am in my 30s
But clearly remember "a new Ice age will be coming from man made causes" being pushed in school when I was very young.
And Captain Planet cartoons (that I enjoyed watching) were pushing the idea that Acid rain was gonna kill us and destroy most of the trees on earth.
Later on the narrative that global temps were gonna fry us all became the more dominate narrative.
Drives me nuts, the alarmists are making dealing with environmental issues much harder and we do have environmental issues that need to be addressed.
By what measure is Ukraine 'soverign', by what measure is it a 'democracy'?bear2be2 said:Clearly you haven't paid much attention to Ukraine's history since the fall of the Soviet Union. Equating government corruption to an acceptance of such by the people is silly.Doc Holliday said:No they won't. Ukraine has been one of the most corrupt countries on the planet for a long ass time and their people haven't done squat about it.bear2be2 said:No one will need to tell the Ukrainian people. If this is a long-term threat to their voting rights, they'll do the same thing to Zelensky they've done to past leaders that tried to overreach their authority or circumvent the will of the people.muddybrazos said:bear2be2 said:There's a pretty simple way to figure out which side is the right one from both a historical and moral standpoint. It's the one that doesn't try to remove all agency from and ignore the wishes of the Ukrainian people, who have repeatedly and with their own blood told us they don't want to be ruled or controlled by Russia or its puppets.whiterock said:Every one of those bullet points can be footnoted to uncontested history.Sam Lowry said:8:00 - 8:50 MWFwhiterock said:Well, you have pointed out a disjointed argument that begs a question plainly at odds with history.Quote:Quote:why is it reprehensible?Quote:Quote:You're mistaking (failed) Russian appeasement for some more sinister American/NATO motive of your creation.Quote:Why isn't NATO admitting Ukraine if this was the issue to begin with ?Quote:You mean Russia's agreement with a puppet head of state, who was eventually run out on a rail ... to Russia?Quote:
We'll never understand Russia's rationale if the fact that it's Russian is all it takes to negate it. That's circular reasoning.
If Russia's agreements with Ukraine mean nothing, then neither do ours. You can't have it both ways.
The Soviet Union fell. Russia doesn't get to control what former Soviet states do anymore, regardless of what Putin believes. No one has done more than Putin has to push Ukraine toward democracy and an ideological alignment with the Western world.
Thousands of people are already dead, millions forced to leave their homes.
Yet now when Ukraine needs NATO the most, magically no invitation shows up.
Really think Russia invades Ukraine if they still had their nuclear stockpile; one of the largest in the world ?
It was the US that convinced Urkraine to give them up; not Russia.
Ukraine was disarmed and not admitted to NATO because the West didn't want war with Russia. Unfortunately, Russia has all but insisted on it. Appeasement doesn't work.
The United States is using the blood of Ukrainians to fight a proxy war with Russia in the hope of deposing Putin.
A reprehensible act.
And only those filled with 'my country right or wrong' jingoism ( or the inability to study the events leading up to the war ) can fail to admit it .
The Ukes are highly motivated to fight to expel an invading army. How could it possibly be immoral to support them?
Sam and I have repeatedly pointed out how Ukraine was manipulated into this war.
How they can't even negotiate an end to the war without US approval.
You simply chop to ignore the realities, which of course is your right.
Here's a timeline:
-Yanukovich )who hailed from Donbas) was popularly elected promising to continue a pro-EU platform.
-In response to RUSSIAN pressure, Yanukovich vetoed the EU bill he'd promised to support.
-The Ukrainian Parliament removed Yanukovich from office.
-RUSSIA started a "little green men" spec op in Donbass.
-RUSSIA seized Crimea.
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Poroshenko
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Zelensky
-RUSSIA invaded Ukraine.
Facts are facts.
There would be no war in Ukraine had Russia not invaded it THREE TIMES in the last 10 years. The idea that USA somehow manipulated all the actors involved to take actions which would lead to war....a war that threatens US and NATO interests in the region...is just plain goofy. To the extent that your arguments against further US military support for Ukraine is premised on such faulty history, it undermines your entire argument (which is laced with all kinds of ignorance of history and the dynamics of world affairs.)
Now, all that said, there are principled grounds to oppose further funding, foremost of which are the varied budgetary reasons. They are at best not persuasive. Ergo our continued support with strong support of the American public, who at least in the main grasp that Russian victory is bad and Ukrainian victory is good.
Propaganda 101
Prof. J. Whiterock (BS, 2023)
The "blame America for the Ukraine War" cannot.
We can talk all we want about the effectiveness of the Ukrainian government or the United States' role in that region, but the Ukrainian people themselves want a free democracy and they've resisted (sometimes violently) every time Russian interference has put that in jeopardy.Dictator Zelensky shouldn’t get another fucking penny! pic.twitter.com/U5KwgnNgvM
— Gunther Eagleman™ (@GuntherEagleman) August 28, 2023
Someone should tell the Ukranian people that they dont get a free democracy bc their president is a tyrant.
That's my point. The Ukrainian people want democracy. And they've proven on a number of occasions they'll fight for it. Zelensky would be foolish to overplay his hand where elections are concerned.
Like most new democracies, Ukraine has had its hiccups, but the people have steadfastly stood on the side of free, democratic rule. And those who have tried to circumvent that have been summarily rejected and eventually ousted.
To suggest they "haven't done squat" is patently false. It's a ridiculously ignorant take.
1. Under martial law
2. Banned all oppositional parties
3. Banned all oppositional media
4. Not allowing its male population to leave.
If that's democracy, so is Iran, China and North Korea.
What happened?
Get the picture...Doc Holliday said:By what measure is Ukraine 'soverign', by what measure is it a 'democracy'?bear2be2 said:Clearly you haven't paid much attention to Ukraine's history since the fall of the Soviet Union. Equating government corruption to an acceptance of such by the people is silly.Doc Holliday said:No they won't. Ukraine has been one of the most corrupt countries on the planet for a long ass time and their people haven't done squat about it.bear2be2 said:No one will need to tell the Ukrainian people. If this is a long-term threat to their voting rights, they'll do the same thing to Zelensky they've done to past leaders that tried to overreach their authority or circumvent the will of the people.muddybrazos said:bear2be2 said:There's a pretty simple way to figure out which side is the right one from both a historical and moral standpoint. It's the one that doesn't try to remove all agency from and ignore the wishes of the Ukrainian people, who have repeatedly and with their own blood told us they don't want to be ruled or controlled by Russia or its puppets.whiterock said:Every one of those bullet points can be footnoted to uncontested history.Sam Lowry said:8:00 - 8:50 MWFwhiterock said:Well, you have pointed out a disjointed argument that begs a question plainly at odds with history.Quote:Quote:why is it reprehensible?Quote:Quote:You're mistaking (failed) Russian appeasement for some more sinister American/NATO motive of your creation.Quote:Why isn't NATO admitting Ukraine if this was the issue to begin with ?Quote:You mean Russia's agreement with a puppet head of state, who was eventually run out on a rail ... to Russia?Quote:
We'll never understand Russia's rationale if the fact that it's Russian is all it takes to negate it. That's circular reasoning.
If Russia's agreements with Ukraine mean nothing, then neither do ours. You can't have it both ways.
The Soviet Union fell. Russia doesn't get to control what former Soviet states do anymore, regardless of what Putin believes. No one has done more than Putin has to push Ukraine toward democracy and an ideological alignment with the Western world.
Thousands of people are already dead, millions forced to leave their homes.
Yet now when Ukraine needs NATO the most, magically no invitation shows up.
Really think Russia invades Ukraine if they still had their nuclear stockpile; one of the largest in the world ?
It was the US that convinced Urkraine to give them up; not Russia.
Ukraine was disarmed and not admitted to NATO because the West didn't want war with Russia. Unfortunately, Russia has all but insisted on it. Appeasement doesn't work.
The United States is using the blood of Ukrainians to fight a proxy war with Russia in the hope of deposing Putin.
A reprehensible act.
And only those filled with 'my country right or wrong' jingoism ( or the inability to study the events leading up to the war ) can fail to admit it .
The Ukes are highly motivated to fight to expel an invading army. How could it possibly be immoral to support them?
Sam and I have repeatedly pointed out how Ukraine was manipulated into this war.
How they can't even negotiate an end to the war without US approval.
You simply chop to ignore the realities, which of course is your right.
Here's a timeline:
-Yanukovich )who hailed from Donbas) was popularly elected promising to continue a pro-EU platform.
-In response to RUSSIAN pressure, Yanukovich vetoed the EU bill he'd promised to support.
-The Ukrainian Parliament removed Yanukovich from office.
-RUSSIA started a "little green men" spec op in Donbass.
-RUSSIA seized Crimea.
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Poroshenko
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Zelensky
-RUSSIA invaded Ukraine.
Facts are facts.
There would be no war in Ukraine had Russia not invaded it THREE TIMES in the last 10 years. The idea that USA somehow manipulated all the actors involved to take actions which would lead to war....a war that threatens US and NATO interests in the region...is just plain goofy. To the extent that your arguments against further US military support for Ukraine is premised on such faulty history, it undermines your entire argument (which is laced with all kinds of ignorance of history and the dynamics of world affairs.)
Now, all that said, there are principled grounds to oppose further funding, foremost of which are the varied budgetary reasons. They are at best not persuasive. Ergo our continued support with strong support of the American public, who at least in the main grasp that Russian victory is bad and Ukrainian victory is good.
Propaganda 101
Prof. J. Whiterock (BS, 2023)
The "blame America for the Ukraine War" cannot.
We can talk all we want about the effectiveness of the Ukrainian government or the United States' role in that region, but the Ukrainian people themselves want a free democracy and they've resisted (sometimes violently) every time Russian interference has put that in jeopardy.Dictator Zelensky shouldn’t get another fucking penny! pic.twitter.com/U5KwgnNgvM
— Gunther Eagleman™ (@GuntherEagleman) August 28, 2023
Someone should tell the Ukranian people that they dont get a free democracy bc their president is a tyrant.
That's my point. The Ukrainian people want democracy. And they've proven on a number of occasions they'll fight for it. Zelensky would be foolish to overplay his hand where elections are concerned.
Like most new democracies, Ukraine has had its hiccups, but the people have steadfastly stood on the side of free, democratic rule. And those who have tried to circumvent that have been summarily rejected and eventually ousted.
To suggest they "haven't done squat" is patently false. It's a ridiculously ignorant take.
1. Under martial law
2. Banned all oppositional parties
3. Banned all oppositional media
4. Not allowing its male population to leave.
If that's democracy, so is Iran, China and North Korea.
What happened?
The more talks, reveals the more he shouldn't talk.
I'll likely have a larger response later, but Doc's comment here once again shows a fundamental ignorance of both Ukrainian and world history.FLBear5630 said:Get the picture...Doc Holliday said:By what measure is Ukraine 'soverign', by what measure is it a 'democracy'?bear2be2 said:Clearly you haven't paid much attention to Ukraine's history since the fall of the Soviet Union. Equating government corruption to an acceptance of such by the people is silly.Doc Holliday said:No they won't. Ukraine has been one of the most corrupt countries on the planet for a long ass time and their people haven't done squat about it.bear2be2 said:No one will need to tell the Ukrainian people. If this is a long-term threat to their voting rights, they'll do the same thing to Zelensky they've done to past leaders that tried to overreach their authority or circumvent the will of the people.muddybrazos said:bear2be2 said:There's a pretty simple way to figure out which side is the right one from both a historical and moral standpoint. It's the one that doesn't try to remove all agency from and ignore the wishes of the Ukrainian people, who have repeatedly and with their own blood told us they don't want to be ruled or controlled by Russia or its puppets.whiterock said:Every one of those bullet points can be footnoted to uncontested history.Sam Lowry said:8:00 - 8:50 MWFwhiterock said:Well, you have pointed out a disjointed argument that begs a question plainly at odds with history.Quote:Quote:why is it reprehensible?Quote:Quote:You're mistaking (failed) Russian appeasement for some more sinister American/NATO motive of your creation.Quote:Why isn't NATO admitting Ukraine if this was the issue to begin with ?Quote:You mean Russia's agreement with a puppet head of state, who was eventually run out on a rail ... to Russia?Quote:
We'll never understand Russia's rationale if the fact that it's Russian is all it takes to negate it. That's circular reasoning.
If Russia's agreements with Ukraine mean nothing, then neither do ours. You can't have it both ways.
The Soviet Union fell. Russia doesn't get to control what former Soviet states do anymore, regardless of what Putin believes. No one has done more than Putin has to push Ukraine toward democracy and an ideological alignment with the Western world.
Thousands of people are already dead, millions forced to leave their homes.
Yet now when Ukraine needs NATO the most, magically no invitation shows up.
Really think Russia invades Ukraine if they still had their nuclear stockpile; one of the largest in the world ?
It was the US that convinced Urkraine to give them up; not Russia.
Ukraine was disarmed and not admitted to NATO because the West didn't want war with Russia. Unfortunately, Russia has all but insisted on it. Appeasement doesn't work.
The United States is using the blood of Ukrainians to fight a proxy war with Russia in the hope of deposing Putin.
A reprehensible act.
And only those filled with 'my country right or wrong' jingoism ( or the inability to study the events leading up to the war ) can fail to admit it .
The Ukes are highly motivated to fight to expel an invading army. How could it possibly be immoral to support them?
Sam and I have repeatedly pointed out how Ukraine was manipulated into this war.
How they can't even negotiate an end to the war without US approval.
You simply chop to ignore the realities, which of course is your right.
Here's a timeline:
-Yanukovich )who hailed from Donbas) was popularly elected promising to continue a pro-EU platform.
-In response to RUSSIAN pressure, Yanukovich vetoed the EU bill he'd promised to support.
-The Ukrainian Parliament removed Yanukovich from office.
-RUSSIA started a "little green men" spec op in Donbass.
-RUSSIA seized Crimea.
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Poroshenko
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Zelensky
-RUSSIA invaded Ukraine.
Facts are facts.
There would be no war in Ukraine had Russia not invaded it THREE TIMES in the last 10 years. The idea that USA somehow manipulated all the actors involved to take actions which would lead to war....a war that threatens US and NATO interests in the region...is just plain goofy. To the extent that your arguments against further US military support for Ukraine is premised on such faulty history, it undermines your entire argument (which is laced with all kinds of ignorance of history and the dynamics of world affairs.)
Now, all that said, there are principled grounds to oppose further funding, foremost of which are the varied budgetary reasons. They are at best not persuasive. Ergo our continued support with strong support of the American public, who at least in the main grasp that Russian victory is bad and Ukrainian victory is good.
Propaganda 101
Prof. J. Whiterock (BS, 2023)
The "blame America for the Ukraine War" cannot.
We can talk all we want about the effectiveness of the Ukrainian government or the United States' role in that region, but the Ukrainian people themselves want a free democracy and they've resisted (sometimes violently) every time Russian interference has put that in jeopardy.Dictator Zelensky shouldn’t get another fucking penny! pic.twitter.com/U5KwgnNgvM
— Gunther Eagleman™ (@GuntherEagleman) August 28, 2023
Someone should tell the Ukranian people that they dont get a free democracy bc their president is a tyrant.
That's my point. The Ukrainian people want democracy. And they've proven on a number of occasions they'll fight for it. Zelensky would be foolish to overplay his hand where elections are concerned.
Like most new democracies, Ukraine has had its hiccups, but the people have steadfastly stood on the side of free, democratic rule. And those who have tried to circumvent that have been summarily rejected and eventually ousted.
To suggest they "haven't done squat" is patently false. It's a ridiculously ignorant take.
1. Under martial law
2. Banned all oppositional parties
3. Banned all oppositional media
4. Not allowing its male population to leave.
If that's democracy, so is Iran, China and North Korea.
What happened?
If those things disqualify a country from calling itself a democracy, the US isn't one either. If you were to poll American men above the age of about 93, you'd find that almost every one of them was either drafted or enlisted in one military branch or another to avoid being drafted. If, God forbid, we ever have another world war, we could find ourselves in that position once again.
Mandatory military service is nothing new. And you don't have to live in an authoritarian state to subject to it.
Zero political and media opposition is not democracy no matter how much you pretend it is.bear2be2 said:I'll likely have a larger response later, but Doc's comment here once again shows a fundamental ignorance of both Ukrainian and world history.FLBear5630 said:Get the picture...Doc Holliday said:By what measure is Ukraine 'soverign', by what measure is it a 'democracy'?bear2be2 said:Clearly you haven't paid much attention to Ukraine's history since the fall of the Soviet Union. Equating government corruption to an acceptance of such by the people is silly.Doc Holliday said:No they won't. Ukraine has been one of the most corrupt countries on the planet for a long ass time and their people haven't done squat about it.bear2be2 said:No one will need to tell the Ukrainian people. If this is a long-term threat to their voting rights, they'll do the same thing to Zelensky they've done to past leaders that tried to overreach their authority or circumvent the will of the people.muddybrazos said:bear2be2 said:There's a pretty simple way to figure out which side is the right one from both a historical and moral standpoint. It's the one that doesn't try to remove all agency from and ignore the wishes of the Ukrainian people, who have repeatedly and with their own blood told us they don't want to be ruled or controlled by Russia or its puppets.whiterock said:Every one of those bullet points can be footnoted to uncontested history.Sam Lowry said:8:00 - 8:50 MWFwhiterock said:Well, you have pointed out a disjointed argument that begs a question plainly at odds with history.Quote:Quote:why is it reprehensible?Quote:Quote:You're mistaking (failed) Russian appeasement for some more sinister American/NATO motive of your creation.Quote:Why isn't NATO admitting Ukraine if this was the issue to begin with ?Quote:You mean Russia's agreement with a puppet head of state, who was eventually run out on a rail ... to Russia?Quote:
We'll never understand Russia's rationale if the fact that it's Russian is all it takes to negate it. That's circular reasoning.
If Russia's agreements with Ukraine mean nothing, then neither do ours. You can't have it both ways.
The Soviet Union fell. Russia doesn't get to control what former Soviet states do anymore, regardless of what Putin believes. No one has done more than Putin has to push Ukraine toward democracy and an ideological alignment with the Western world.
Thousands of people are already dead, millions forced to leave their homes.
Yet now when Ukraine needs NATO the most, magically no invitation shows up.
Really think Russia invades Ukraine if they still had their nuclear stockpile; one of the largest in the world ?
It was the US that convinced Urkraine to give them up; not Russia.
Ukraine was disarmed and not admitted to NATO because the West didn't want war with Russia. Unfortunately, Russia has all but insisted on it. Appeasement doesn't work.
The United States is using the blood of Ukrainians to fight a proxy war with Russia in the hope of deposing Putin.
A reprehensible act.
And only those filled with 'my country right or wrong' jingoism ( or the inability to study the events leading up to the war ) can fail to admit it .
The Ukes are highly motivated to fight to expel an invading army. How could it possibly be immoral to support them?
Sam and I have repeatedly pointed out how Ukraine was manipulated into this war.
How they can't even negotiate an end to the war without US approval.
You simply chop to ignore the realities, which of course is your right.
Here's a timeline:
-Yanukovich )who hailed from Donbas) was popularly elected promising to continue a pro-EU platform.
-In response to RUSSIAN pressure, Yanukovich vetoed the EU bill he'd promised to support.
-The Ukrainian Parliament removed Yanukovich from office.
-RUSSIA started a "little green men" spec op in Donbass.
-RUSSIA seized Crimea.
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Poroshenko
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Zelensky
-RUSSIA invaded Ukraine.
Facts are facts.
There would be no war in Ukraine had Russia not invaded it THREE TIMES in the last 10 years. The idea that USA somehow manipulated all the actors involved to take actions which would lead to war....a war that threatens US and NATO interests in the region...is just plain goofy. To the extent that your arguments against further US military support for Ukraine is premised on such faulty history, it undermines your entire argument (which is laced with all kinds of ignorance of history and the dynamics of world affairs.)
Now, all that said, there are principled grounds to oppose further funding, foremost of which are the varied budgetary reasons. They are at best not persuasive. Ergo our continued support with strong support of the American public, who at least in the main grasp that Russian victory is bad and Ukrainian victory is good.
Propaganda 101
Prof. J. Whiterock (BS, 2023)
The "blame America for the Ukraine War" cannot.
We can talk all we want about the effectiveness of the Ukrainian government or the United States' role in that region, but the Ukrainian people themselves want a free democracy and they've resisted (sometimes violently) every time Russian interference has put that in jeopardy.Dictator Zelensky shouldn’t get another fucking penny! pic.twitter.com/U5KwgnNgvM
— Gunther Eagleman™ (@GuntherEagleman) August 28, 2023
Someone should tell the Ukranian people that they dont get a free democracy bc their president is a tyrant.
That's my point. The Ukrainian people want democracy. And they've proven on a number of occasions they'll fight for it. Zelensky would be foolish to overplay his hand where elections are concerned.
Like most new democracies, Ukraine has had its hiccups, but the people have steadfastly stood on the side of free, democratic rule. And those who have tried to circumvent that have been summarily rejected and eventually ousted.
To suggest they "haven't done squat" is patently false. It's a ridiculously ignorant take.
1. Under martial law
2. Banned all oppositional parties
3. Banned all oppositional media
4. Not allowing its male population to leave.
If that's democracy, so is Iran, China and North Korea.
What happened?
If those things disqualify a country from calling itself a democracy, the US isn't one either. If you were to poll American men above the age of about 93, you'd find that almost every one of them was either drafted or enlisted in one military branch or another to avoid being drafted. If, God forbid, we ever have another world war, we could find ourselves in that position once again.
Mandatory military service is nothing new. And you don't have to live in an authoritarian state to subject to it.
Maybe Ukrainians should be allowed to vote?
I'm tired of being told "If we don't stop Russia in Ukraine, they'll take the whole Eastern Europe!" by the same people who've said for last 15 months that Russia only has two more weeks of missiles left and that Ukraine is kicking their teeth in.
Somebody is lying.
You act like Western democracies had a linear path to where they are now, which is, of course, absurd. Learning how to rule oneself is a process for any nation, and one fraught with pitfalls. There is example after example throughout history of democratic nations with enormous head starts on Ukraine failing far more miserably at installing and maintaining democratic safeguards against tyranny and corruption.Doc Holliday said:Zero political and media opposition is not democracy no matter how much you pretend it is.bear2be2 said:I'll likely have a larger response later, but Doc's comment here once again shows a fundamental ignorance of both Ukrainian and world history.FLBear5630 said:Get the picture...Doc Holliday said:By what measure is Ukraine 'soverign', by what measure is it a 'democracy'?bear2be2 said:Clearly you haven't paid much attention to Ukraine's history since the fall of the Soviet Union. Equating government corruption to an acceptance of such by the people is silly.Doc Holliday said:No they won't. Ukraine has been one of the most corrupt countries on the planet for a long ass time and their people haven't done squat about it.bear2be2 said:No one will need to tell the Ukrainian people. If this is a long-term threat to their voting rights, they'll do the same thing to Zelensky they've done to past leaders that tried to overreach their authority or circumvent the will of the people.muddybrazos said:bear2be2 said:There's a pretty simple way to figure out which side is the right one from both a historical and moral standpoint. It's the one that doesn't try to remove all agency from and ignore the wishes of the Ukrainian people, who have repeatedly and with their own blood told us they don't want to be ruled or controlled by Russia or its puppets.whiterock said:Every one of those bullet points can be footnoted to uncontested history.Sam Lowry said:8:00 - 8:50 MWFwhiterock said:Well, you have pointed out a disjointed argument that begs a question plainly at odds with history.Quote:Quote:why is it reprehensible?Quote:Quote:You're mistaking (failed) Russian appeasement for some more sinister American/NATO motive of your creation.Quote:Why isn't NATO admitting Ukraine if this was the issue to begin with ?Quote:You mean Russia's agreement with a puppet head of state, who was eventually run out on a rail ... to Russia?Quote:
We'll never understand Russia's rationale if the fact that it's Russian is all it takes to negate it. That's circular reasoning.
If Russia's agreements with Ukraine mean nothing, then neither do ours. You can't have it both ways.
The Soviet Union fell. Russia doesn't get to control what former Soviet states do anymore, regardless of what Putin believes. No one has done more than Putin has to push Ukraine toward democracy and an ideological alignment with the Western world.
Thousands of people are already dead, millions forced to leave their homes.
Yet now when Ukraine needs NATO the most, magically no invitation shows up.
Really think Russia invades Ukraine if they still had their nuclear stockpile; one of the largest in the world ?
It was the US that convinced Urkraine to give them up; not Russia.
Ukraine was disarmed and not admitted to NATO because the West didn't want war with Russia. Unfortunately, Russia has all but insisted on it. Appeasement doesn't work.
The United States is using the blood of Ukrainians to fight a proxy war with Russia in the hope of deposing Putin.
A reprehensible act.
And only those filled with 'my country right or wrong' jingoism ( or the inability to study the events leading up to the war ) can fail to admit it .
The Ukes are highly motivated to fight to expel an invading army. How could it possibly be immoral to support them?
Sam and I have repeatedly pointed out how Ukraine was manipulated into this war.
How they can't even negotiate an end to the war without US approval.
You simply chop to ignore the realities, which of course is your right.
Here's a timeline:
-Yanukovich )who hailed from Donbas) was popularly elected promising to continue a pro-EU platform.
-In response to RUSSIAN pressure, Yanukovich vetoed the EU bill he'd promised to support.
-The Ukrainian Parliament removed Yanukovich from office.
-RUSSIA started a "little green men" spec op in Donbass.
-RUSSIA seized Crimea.
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Poroshenko
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Zelensky
-RUSSIA invaded Ukraine.
Facts are facts.
There would be no war in Ukraine had Russia not invaded it THREE TIMES in the last 10 years. The idea that USA somehow manipulated all the actors involved to take actions which would lead to war....a war that threatens US and NATO interests in the region...is just plain goofy. To the extent that your arguments against further US military support for Ukraine is premised on such faulty history, it undermines your entire argument (which is laced with all kinds of ignorance of history and the dynamics of world affairs.)
Now, all that said, there are principled grounds to oppose further funding, foremost of which are the varied budgetary reasons. They are at best not persuasive. Ergo our continued support with strong support of the American public, who at least in the main grasp that Russian victory is bad and Ukrainian victory is good.
Propaganda 101
Prof. J. Whiterock (BS, 2023)
The "blame America for the Ukraine War" cannot.
We can talk all we want about the effectiveness of the Ukrainian government or the United States' role in that region, but the Ukrainian people themselves want a free democracy and they've resisted (sometimes violently) every time Russian interference has put that in jeopardy.Dictator Zelensky shouldn’t get another fucking penny! pic.twitter.com/U5KwgnNgvM
— Gunther Eagleman™ (@GuntherEagleman) August 28, 2023
Someone should tell the Ukranian people that they dont get a free democracy bc their president is a tyrant.
That's my point. The Ukrainian people want democracy. And they've proven on a number of occasions they'll fight for it. Zelensky would be foolish to overplay his hand where elections are concerned.
Like most new democracies, Ukraine has had its hiccups, but the people have steadfastly stood on the side of free, democratic rule. And those who have tried to circumvent that have been summarily rejected and eventually ousted.
To suggest they "haven't done squat" is patently false. It's a ridiculously ignorant take.
1. Under martial law
2. Banned all oppositional parties
3. Banned all oppositional media
4. Not allowing its male population to leave.
If that's democracy, so is Iran, China and North Korea.
What happened?
If those things disqualify a country from calling itself a democracy, the US isn't one either. If you were to poll American men above the age of about 93, you'd find that almost every one of them was either drafted or enlisted in one military branch or another to avoid being drafted. If, God forbid, we ever have another world war, we could find ourselves in that position once again.
Mandatory military service is nothing new. And you don't have to live in an authoritarian state to subject to it.
Maybe Ukrainians should be allowed to vote?
I'm tired of being told "If we don't stop Russia in Ukraine, they'll take the whole Eastern Europe!" by the same people who've said for last 15 months that Russia only has two more weeks of missiles left and that Ukraine is kicking their teeth in.
Somebody is lying.
But the key is Ukraine has the most important ingredient when it comes to snuffing those things out, which is a population that has proven with its words and actions that it wants to. Ukraine, as an independent nation, isn't even 35 years old yet. Judging that country by politicians and policies its people have flatly and forcefully rejected is wrong-headed IMO.
And Ukrainians will be able to vote. It's silly to think Zelensky is afraid of an election. His approval rating is through the roof as a result of his war response. It's also reasonable to think that an election held during a war on one's soil would be very difficult to carry out in a way that got all citizens (many of which have been displaced) represented. It's also understandable that Ukraine wouldn't want to divert attention or funds away from its war effort. Ignoring all these factors to conclude that that something more nefarious is afoot is to ignore that such actions would go over like a lead balloon with the people Ukraine is relying on to fight Russia currently.
Lastly, I don't know or pretend to know Russia's grand plan is. But I'm not going to be told what it is by the same people that told me Putin wouldn't invade Ukraine for months and years before he did exactly that.
Is there a limit or redline you have?bear2be2 said:You act like Western democracies had a linear path to where they are now, which is, of course, absurd. Learning how to rule oneself is a process for any nation, and one fraught with pitfalls. There is example after example throughout history of democratic nations with enormous head starts on Ukraine failing far more miserably at installing and maintaining democratic safeguards against tyranny and corruption.Doc Holliday said:Zero political and media opposition is not democracy no matter how much you pretend it is.bear2be2 said:I'll likely have a larger response later, but Doc's comment here once again shows a fundamental ignorance of both Ukrainian and world history.FLBear5630 said:Get the picture...Doc Holliday said:By what measure is Ukraine 'soverign', by what measure is it a 'democracy'?bear2be2 said:Clearly you haven't paid much attention to Ukraine's history since the fall of the Soviet Union. Equating government corruption to an acceptance of such by the people is silly.Doc Holliday said:No they won't. Ukraine has been one of the most corrupt countries on the planet for a long ass time and their people haven't done squat about it.bear2be2 said:No one will need to tell the Ukrainian people. If this is a long-term threat to their voting rights, they'll do the same thing to Zelensky they've done to past leaders that tried to overreach their authority or circumvent the will of the people.muddybrazos said:bear2be2 said:There's a pretty simple way to figure out which side is the right one from both a historical and moral standpoint. It's the one that doesn't try to remove all agency from and ignore the wishes of the Ukrainian people, who have repeatedly and with their own blood told us they don't want to be ruled or controlled by Russia or its puppets.whiterock said:Every one of those bullet points can be footnoted to uncontested history.Sam Lowry said:8:00 - 8:50 MWFwhiterock said:Well, you have pointed out a disjointed argument that begs a question plainly at odds with history.Quote:Quote:why is it reprehensible?Quote:Quote:You're mistaking (failed) Russian appeasement for some more sinister American/NATO motive of your creation.Quote:Why isn't NATO admitting Ukraine if this was the issue to begin with ?Quote:You mean Russia's agreement with a puppet head of state, who was eventually run out on a rail ... to Russia?Quote:
We'll never understand Russia's rationale if the fact that it's Russian is all it takes to negate it. That's circular reasoning.
If Russia's agreements with Ukraine mean nothing, then neither do ours. You can't have it both ways.
The Soviet Union fell. Russia doesn't get to control what former Soviet states do anymore, regardless of what Putin believes. No one has done more than Putin has to push Ukraine toward democracy and an ideological alignment with the Western world.
Thousands of people are already dead, millions forced to leave their homes.
Yet now when Ukraine needs NATO the most, magically no invitation shows up.
Really think Russia invades Ukraine if they still had their nuclear stockpile; one of the largest in the world ?
It was the US that convinced Urkraine to give them up; not Russia.
Ukraine was disarmed and not admitted to NATO because the West didn't want war with Russia. Unfortunately, Russia has all but insisted on it. Appeasement doesn't work.
The United States is using the blood of Ukrainians to fight a proxy war with Russia in the hope of deposing Putin.
A reprehensible act.
And only those filled with 'my country right or wrong' jingoism ( or the inability to study the events leading up to the war ) can fail to admit it .
The Ukes are highly motivated to fight to expel an invading army. How could it possibly be immoral to support them?
Sam and I have repeatedly pointed out how Ukraine was manipulated into this war.
How they can't even negotiate an end to the war without US approval.
You simply chop to ignore the realities, which of course is your right.
Here's a timeline:
-Yanukovich )who hailed from Donbas) was popularly elected promising to continue a pro-EU platform.
-In response to RUSSIAN pressure, Yanukovich vetoed the EU bill he'd promised to support.
-The Ukrainian Parliament removed Yanukovich from office.
-RUSSIA started a "little green men" spec op in Donbass.
-RUSSIA seized Crimea.
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Poroshenko
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Zelensky
-RUSSIA invaded Ukraine.
Facts are facts.
There would be no war in Ukraine had Russia not invaded it THREE TIMES in the last 10 years. The idea that USA somehow manipulated all the actors involved to take actions which would lead to war....a war that threatens US and NATO interests in the region...is just plain goofy. To the extent that your arguments against further US military support for Ukraine is premised on such faulty history, it undermines your entire argument (which is laced with all kinds of ignorance of history and the dynamics of world affairs.)
Now, all that said, there are principled grounds to oppose further funding, foremost of which are the varied budgetary reasons. They are at best not persuasive. Ergo our continued support with strong support of the American public, who at least in the main grasp that Russian victory is bad and Ukrainian victory is good.
Propaganda 101
Prof. J. Whiterock (BS, 2023)
The "blame America for the Ukraine War" cannot.
We can talk all we want about the effectiveness of the Ukrainian government or the United States' role in that region, but the Ukrainian people themselves want a free democracy and they've resisted (sometimes violently) every time Russian interference has put that in jeopardy.Dictator Zelensky shouldn’t get another fucking penny! pic.twitter.com/U5KwgnNgvM
— Gunther Eagleman™ (@GuntherEagleman) August 28, 2023
Someone should tell the Ukranian people that they dont get a free democracy bc their president is a tyrant.
That's my point. The Ukrainian people want democracy. And they've proven on a number of occasions they'll fight for it. Zelensky would be foolish to overplay his hand where elections are concerned.
Like most new democracies, Ukraine has had its hiccups, but the people have steadfastly stood on the side of free, democratic rule. And those who have tried to circumvent that have been summarily rejected and eventually ousted.
To suggest they "haven't done squat" is patently false. It's a ridiculously ignorant take.
1. Under martial law
2. Banned all oppositional parties
3. Banned all oppositional media
4. Not allowing its male population to leave.
If that's democracy, so is Iran, China and North Korea.
What happened?
If those things disqualify a country from calling itself a democracy, the US isn't one either. If you were to poll American men above the age of about 93, you'd find that almost every one of them was either drafted or enlisted in one military branch or another to avoid being drafted. If, God forbid, we ever have another world war, we could find ourselves in that position once again.
Mandatory military service is nothing new. And you don't have to live in an authoritarian state to subject to it.
Maybe Ukrainians should be allowed to vote?
I'm tired of being told "If we don't stop Russia in Ukraine, they'll take the whole Eastern Europe!" by the same people who've said for last 15 months that Russia only has two more weeks of missiles left and that Ukraine is kicking their teeth in.
Somebody is lying.
But the key is Ukraine has the most important ingredient when it comes to snuffing those things out, which is a population that has proven with its words and actions that it wants to. Ukraine, as an independent nation, isn't even 35 years old yet. Judging that country by politicians and policies its people have flatly and forcefully rejected is wrong-headed IMO.
And Ukrainians will be able to vote. It's silly to think Zelensky is afraid of an election. His approval rating is through the roof as a result of his war response. It's also reasonable to think that an election held during a war on one's soil would be very difficult to carry out in a way that got all citizens (many of which have been displaced) represented. It's also understandable that Ukraine wouldn't want to divert attention or funds away from its war effort. Ignoring all these factors to conclude that that something more nefarious is afoot is to ignore that such actions would go over like a lead balloon with the people Ukraine is relying on to fight Russia currently.
Lastly, I don't know or pretend to know Russia's grand plan is. But I'm not going to be told what it is by the same people that told me Putin wouldn't invade Ukraine for months and years before he did exactly that.
How many trillions spent would be too much on this war? Or do you not care?
If it got to the point where DC considers direct US war against Russia, do you support it?
I don't want your take on whether these things will happen or not, I want to know your position if they do happen.
I don't support an offensive war with Russia or anyone else. If we go to war with Russia, it will only be because they attacked a NATO ally. And my assumption is that it will likely end humanity/civilization as we know it, if that happens.Doc Holliday said:Is there a limit or redline you have?bear2be2 said:You act like Western democracies had a linear path to where they are now, which is, of course, absurd. Learning how to rule oneself is a process for any nation, and one fraught with pitfalls. There is example after example throughout history of democratic nations with enormous head starts on Ukraine failing far more miserably at installing and maintaining democratic safeguards against tyranny and corruption.Doc Holliday said:Zero political and media opposition is not democracy no matter how much you pretend it is.bear2be2 said:I'll likely have a larger response later, but Doc's comment here once again shows a fundamental ignorance of both Ukrainian and world history.FLBear5630 said:Get the picture...Doc Holliday said:By what measure is Ukraine 'soverign', by what measure is it a 'democracy'?bear2be2 said:Clearly you haven't paid much attention to Ukraine's history since the fall of the Soviet Union. Equating government corruption to an acceptance of such by the people is silly.Doc Holliday said:No they won't. Ukraine has been one of the most corrupt countries on the planet for a long ass time and their people haven't done squat about it.bear2be2 said:No one will need to tell the Ukrainian people. If this is a long-term threat to their voting rights, they'll do the same thing to Zelensky they've done to past leaders that tried to overreach their authority or circumvent the will of the people.muddybrazos said:bear2be2 said:There's a pretty simple way to figure out which side is the right one from both a historical and moral standpoint. It's the one that doesn't try to remove all agency from and ignore the wishes of the Ukrainian people, who have repeatedly and with their own blood told us they don't want to be ruled or controlled by Russia or its puppets.whiterock said:Every one of those bullet points can be footnoted to uncontested history.Sam Lowry said:8:00 - 8:50 MWFwhiterock said:Well, you have pointed out a disjointed argument that begs a question plainly at odds with history.Quote:Quote:why is it reprehensible?Quote:Quote:You're mistaking (failed) Russian appeasement for some more sinister American/NATO motive of your creation.Quote:Why isn't NATO admitting Ukraine if this was the issue to begin with ?Quote:You mean Russia's agreement with a puppet head of state, who was eventually run out on a rail ... to Russia?Quote:
We'll never understand Russia's rationale if the fact that it's Russian is all it takes to negate it. That's circular reasoning.
If Russia's agreements with Ukraine mean nothing, then neither do ours. You can't have it both ways.
The Soviet Union fell. Russia doesn't get to control what former Soviet states do anymore, regardless of what Putin believes. No one has done more than Putin has to push Ukraine toward democracy and an ideological alignment with the Western world.
Thousands of people are already dead, millions forced to leave their homes.
Yet now when Ukraine needs NATO the most, magically no invitation shows up.
Really think Russia invades Ukraine if they still had their nuclear stockpile; one of the largest in the world ?
It was the US that convinced Urkraine to give them up; not Russia.
Ukraine was disarmed and not admitted to NATO because the West didn't want war with Russia. Unfortunately, Russia has all but insisted on it. Appeasement doesn't work.
The United States is using the blood of Ukrainians to fight a proxy war with Russia in the hope of deposing Putin.
A reprehensible act.
And only those filled with 'my country right or wrong' jingoism ( or the inability to study the events leading up to the war ) can fail to admit it .
The Ukes are highly motivated to fight to expel an invading army. How could it possibly be immoral to support them?
Sam and I have repeatedly pointed out how Ukraine was manipulated into this war.
How they can't even negotiate an end to the war without US approval.
You simply chop to ignore the realities, which of course is your right.
Here's a timeline:
-Yanukovich )who hailed from Donbas) was popularly elected promising to continue a pro-EU platform.
-In response to RUSSIAN pressure, Yanukovich vetoed the EU bill he'd promised to support.
-The Ukrainian Parliament removed Yanukovich from office.
-RUSSIA started a "little green men" spec op in Donbass.
-RUSSIA seized Crimea.
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Poroshenko
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Zelensky
-RUSSIA invaded Ukraine.
Facts are facts.
There would be no war in Ukraine had Russia not invaded it THREE TIMES in the last 10 years. The idea that USA somehow manipulated all the actors involved to take actions which would lead to war....a war that threatens US and NATO interests in the region...is just plain goofy. To the extent that your arguments against further US military support for Ukraine is premised on such faulty history, it undermines your entire argument (which is laced with all kinds of ignorance of history and the dynamics of world affairs.)
Now, all that said, there are principled grounds to oppose further funding, foremost of which are the varied budgetary reasons. They are at best not persuasive. Ergo our continued support with strong support of the American public, who at least in the main grasp that Russian victory is bad and Ukrainian victory is good.
Propaganda 101
Prof. J. Whiterock (BS, 2023)
The "blame America for the Ukraine War" cannot.
We can talk all we want about the effectiveness of the Ukrainian government or the United States' role in that region, but the Ukrainian people themselves want a free democracy and they've resisted (sometimes violently) every time Russian interference has put that in jeopardy.Dictator Zelensky shouldn’t get another fucking penny! pic.twitter.com/U5KwgnNgvM
— Gunther Eagleman™ (@GuntherEagleman) August 28, 2023
Someone should tell the Ukranian people that they dont get a free democracy bc their president is a tyrant.
That's my point. The Ukrainian people want democracy. And they've proven on a number of occasions they'll fight for it. Zelensky would be foolish to overplay his hand where elections are concerned.
Like most new democracies, Ukraine has had its hiccups, but the people have steadfastly stood on the side of free, democratic rule. And those who have tried to circumvent that have been summarily rejected and eventually ousted.
To suggest they "haven't done squat" is patently false. It's a ridiculously ignorant take.
1. Under martial law
2. Banned all oppositional parties
3. Banned all oppositional media
4. Not allowing its male population to leave.
If that's democracy, so is Iran, China and North Korea.
What happened?
If those things disqualify a country from calling itself a democracy, the US isn't one either. If you were to poll American men above the age of about 93, you'd find that almost every one of them was either drafted or enlisted in one military branch or another to avoid being drafted. If, God forbid, we ever have another world war, we could find ourselves in that position once again.
Mandatory military service is nothing new. And you don't have to live in an authoritarian state to subject to it.
Maybe Ukrainians should be allowed to vote?
I'm tired of being told "If we don't stop Russia in Ukraine, they'll take the whole Eastern Europe!" by the same people who've said for last 15 months that Russia only has two more weeks of missiles left and that Ukraine is kicking their teeth in.
Somebody is lying.
But the key is Ukraine has the most important ingredient when it comes to snuffing those things out, which is a population that has proven with its words and actions that it wants to. Ukraine, as an independent nation, isn't even 35 years old yet. Judging that country by politicians and policies its people have flatly and forcefully rejected is wrong-headed IMO.
And Ukrainians will be able to vote. It's silly to think Zelensky is afraid of an election. His approval rating is through the roof as a result of his war response. It's also reasonable to think that an election held during a war on one's soil would be very difficult to carry out in a way that got all citizens (many of which have been displaced) represented. It's also understandable that Ukraine wouldn't want to divert attention or funds away from its war effort. Ignoring all these factors to conclude that that something more nefarious is afoot is to ignore that such actions would go over like a lead balloon with the people Ukraine is relying on to fight Russia currently.
Lastly, I don't know or pretend to know Russia's grand plan is. But I'm not going to be told what it is by the same people that told me Putin wouldn't invade Ukraine for months and years before he did exactly that.
How many trillions spent would be too much on this war? Or do you not care?
If it got to the point where DC considers direct US war against Russia, do you support it?
I don't want your take on whether these things will happen or not, I want to know your position if they do happen.
And as for Tucker's false flag nonsense, a Russian missile has already crossed into Poland and it didn't spark NATO's involvement, so the idea that the West is just itching for WWIII with Russia is nonsense. The notion is completely unsupported by decades of history.
Everyone is and has been trying to avoid a direct military conflict with Russia. Now that Russia's aggression has forced a strong opinion, we just disagree on how to best avoid that.
I firmly believe that a free/independent Ukraine (with the side effect of a weakened Russia) is more conducive to long term peace. And as long as Ukraine wants to fight for its freedom, I'm for supporting their efforts. Decades of Russian appeasement by the West/NATO put Ukraine in this situation. We're paying for past mistakes in money while Ukrainians pay with their lives.
Vivek and Buttigieg both asking questions on MSNBC's Townhall in 2003 is like how Hitler and Stalin were both residents of Vienna and frequented Cafe Central in 1913. pic.twitter.com/WsxrIiWpxD
— ib (@Indian_Bronson) August 31, 2023
Mike Pence is an example of how our nation has been hijacked by a foreign power. The idea that we should treat Israel like any other foreign nation strikes them with horror. These politicians understand who controls our government and media, and it is not Americans. These… https://t.co/4qecf9Iv0V
— RAMZPAUL (@ramzpaul) August 31, 2023
He is right. We Americans no longer have self-determination. We are ruled by aliens who hate us. https://t.co/JEMw64Lhfr
— RAMZPAUL (@ramzpaul) August 31, 2023
Russia will run out of money, ammo, etc.....before we hit the $1T mark.be said:I don't support an offensive war with Russia or anyone else. If we go to war with Russia, it will only be because they attacked a NATO ally. And my assumption is that it will likely end humanity/civilization as we know it, if that happens.Quote:
Is there a limit or redline you have?
How many trillions spent would be too much on this war? Or do you not care?
If it got to the point where DC considers direct US war against Russia, do you support it?
I don't want your take on whether these things will happen or not, I want to know your position if they do happen.
And as for Tucker's false flag nonsense, a Russian missile has already crossed into Poland and it didn't spark NATO's involvement, so the idea that the West is just itching for WWIII with Russia is nonsense. The notion is completely unsupported by decades of history.
Everyone is and has been trying to avoid a direct military conflict with Russia. Now that Russia's aggression has forced a strong opinion, we just disagree on how to best avoid that.
I firmly believe that a free/independent Ukraine (with the side effect of a weakened Russia) is more conducive to long term peace. And as long as Ukraine wants to fight for its freedom, I'm for supporting their efforts. Decades of Russian appeasement by the West/NATO put Ukraine in this situation. We're paying for past mistakes in money while Ukrainians pay with their lives.
And we would end up spending a lot less if Biden would quit slow walking the aid. Load Uke up with the tools they need and let them win the damned thing.
whiterock said:Russia will run out of money, ammo, etc.....before we hit the $1T mark.be said:I don't support an offensive war with Russia or anyone else. If we go to war with Russia, it will only be because they attacked a NATO ally. And my assumption is that it will likely end humanity/civilization as we know it, if that happens.Quote:
Is there a limit or redline you have?
How many trillions spent would be too much on this war? Or do you not care?
If it got to the point where DC considers direct US war against Russia, do you support it?
I don't want your take on whether these things will happen or not, I want to know your position if they do happen.
And as for Tucker's false flag nonsense, a Russian missile has already crossed into Poland and it didn't spark NATO's involvement, so the idea that the West is just itching for WWIII with Russia is nonsense. The notion is completely unsupported by decades of history.
Everyone is and has been trying to avoid a direct military conflict with Russia. Now that Russia's aggression has forced a strong opinion, we just disagree on how to best avoid that.
I firmly believe that a free/independent Ukraine (with the side effect of a weakened Russia) is more conducive to long term peace. And as long as Ukraine wants to fight for its freedom, I'm for supporting their efforts. Decades of Russian appeasement by the West/NATO put Ukraine in this situation. We're paying for past mistakes in money while Ukrainians pay with their lives.
And we would end up spending a lot less if Biden would quit slow walking the aid. Load Uke up with the tools they need and let them win the damned thing.
1. Biden is not slow walking anything. Both Democratic and GOP leadership have opened the flood gates on the war machine. In fact they just attached another $200 million in Ukraine war funding to a bill to help the people of Hawaii. So if your a Rep. in Congress and you want to help actual Americans recover from a horrific fire...you have to also give money to the Zelensky regime in Kyiv.
"That means that funding Hawaii's needs for Maui's recovery has been tied to funding to back Ukraine's military, an increasingly unpopular ..."
https://www.civilbeat.org/2023/08/fema-money-for-maui-disaster-relief-may-get-caught-up-in-a-partisan-fight-over-ukraine/
The idea that the USA ruling class is "not doing enough for this Ukraine war" is the kind of insane thing only a madman would argue or some kind of shyster ghoul who works as a military-industrial complex salesman in N. Virginia.... Northrup Grumman type.
2. Russia might run out of money....being cut off from EU trade has certainly hurt them badly....but with Chinese and Iranian support its very very unlikely they run of of ammo or drones any time in the future.
Admire your patience attempting to educate those who can't comprehend how we got into WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Kosovo War, Iraq War ( twice ) and Afghanistan.Doc Holliday said:Zero political and media opposition is not democracy no matter how much you pretend it is.bear2be2 said:I'll likely have a larger response later, but Doc's comment here once again shows a fundamental ignorance of both Ukrainian and world history.FLBear5630 said:Get the picture...Doc Holliday said:By what measure is Ukraine 'soverign', by what measure is it a 'democracy'?bear2be2 said:Clearly you haven't paid much attention to Ukraine's history since the fall of the Soviet Union. Equating government corruption to an acceptance of such by the people is silly.Doc Holliday said:No they won't. Ukraine has been one of the most corrupt countries on the planet for a long ass time and their people haven't done squat about it.bear2be2 said:No one will need to tell the Ukrainian people. If this is a long-term threat to their voting rights, they'll do the same thing to Zelensky they've done to past leaders that tried to overreach their authority or circumvent the will of the people.muddybrazos said:bear2be2 said:There's a pretty simple way to figure out which side is the right one from both a historical and moral standpoint. It's the one that doesn't try to remove all agency from and ignore the wishes of the Ukrainian people, who have repeatedly and with their own blood told us they don't want to be ruled or controlled by Russia or its puppets.whiterock said:Every one of those bullet points can be footnoted to uncontested history.Sam Lowry said:8:00 - 8:50 MWFwhiterock said:Well, you have pointed out a disjointed argument that begs a question plainly at odds with history.Quote:Quote:why is it reprehensible?Quote:Quote:You're mistaking (failed) Russian appeasement for some more sinister American/NATO motive of your creation.Quote:Why isn't NATO admitting Ukraine if this was the issue to begin with ?Quote:You mean Russia's agreement with a puppet head of state, who was eventually run out on a rail ... to Russia?Quote:
We'll never understand Russia's rationale if the fact that it's Russian is all it takes to negate it. That's circular reasoning.
If Russia's agreements with Ukraine mean nothing, then neither do ours. You can't have it both ways.
The Soviet Union fell. Russia doesn't get to control what former Soviet states do anymore, regardless of what Putin believes. No one has done more than Putin has to push Ukraine toward democracy and an ideological alignment with the Western world.
Thousands of people are already dead, millions forced to leave their homes.
Yet now when Ukraine needs NATO the most, magically no invitation shows up.
Really think Russia invades Ukraine if they still had their nuclear stockpile; one of the largest in the world ?
It was the US that convinced Urkraine to give them up; not Russia.
Ukraine was disarmed and not admitted to NATO because the West didn't want war with Russia. Unfortunately, Russia has all but insisted on it. Appeasement doesn't work.
The United States is using the blood of Ukrainians to fight a proxy war with Russia in the hope of deposing Putin.
A reprehensible act.
And only those filled with 'my country right or wrong' jingoism ( or the inability to study the events leading up to the war ) can fail to admit it .
The Ukes are highly motivated to fight to expel an invading army. How could it possibly be immoral to support them?
Sam and I have repeatedly pointed out how Ukraine was manipulated into this war.
How they can't even negotiate an end to the war without US approval.
You simply chop to ignore the realities, which of course is your right.
Here's a timeline:
-Yanukovich )who hailed from Donbas) was popularly elected promising to continue a pro-EU platform.
-In response to RUSSIAN pressure, Yanukovich vetoed the EU bill he'd promised to support.
-The Ukrainian Parliament removed Yanukovich from office.
-RUSSIA started a "little green men" spec op in Donbass.
-RUSSIA seized Crimea.
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Poroshenko
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Zelensky
-RUSSIA invaded Ukraine.
Facts are facts.
There would be no war in Ukraine had Russia not invaded it THREE TIMES in the last 10 years. The idea that USA somehow manipulated all the actors involved to take actions which would lead to war....a war that threatens US and NATO interests in the region...is just plain goofy. To the extent that your arguments against further US military support for Ukraine is premised on such faulty history, it undermines your entire argument (which is laced with all kinds of ignorance of history and the dynamics of world affairs.)
Now, all that said, there are principled grounds to oppose further funding, foremost of which are the varied budgetary reasons. They are at best not persuasive. Ergo our continued support with strong support of the American public, who at least in the main grasp that Russian victory is bad and Ukrainian victory is good.
Propaganda 101
Prof. J. Whiterock (BS, 2023)
The "blame America for the Ukraine War" cannot.
We can talk all we want about the effectiveness of the Ukrainian government or the United States' role in that region, but the Ukrainian people themselves want a free democracy and they've resisted (sometimes violently) every time Russian interference has put that in jeopardy.Dictator Zelensky shouldn’t get another fucking penny! pic.twitter.com/U5KwgnNgvM
— Gunther Eagleman™ (@GuntherEagleman) August 28, 2023
Someone should tell the Ukranian people that they dont get a free democracy bc their president is a tyrant.
That's my point. The Ukrainian people want democracy. And they've proven on a number of occasions they'll fight for it. Zelensky would be foolish to overplay his hand where elections are concerned.
Like most new democracies, Ukraine has had its hiccups, but the people have steadfastly stood on the side of free, democratic rule. And those who have tried to circumvent that have been summarily rejected and eventually ousted.
To suggest they "haven't done squat" is patently false. It's a ridiculously ignorant take.
1. Under martial law
2. Banned all oppositional parties
3. Banned all oppositional media
4. Not allowing its male population to leave.
If that's democracy, so is Iran, China and North Korea.
What happened?
If those things disqualify a country from calling itself a democracy, the US isn't one either. If you were to poll American men above the age of about 93, you'd find that almost every one of them was either drafted or enlisted in one military branch or another to avoid being drafted. If, God forbid, we ever have another world war, we could find ourselves in that position once again.
Mandatory military service is nothing new. And you don't have to live in an authoritarian state to subject to it.
Maybe Ukrainians should be allowed to vote?
I'm tired of being told "If we don't stop Russia in Ukraine, they'll take the whole Eastern Europe!" by the same people who've said for last 15 months that Russia only has two more weeks of missiles left and that Ukraine is kicking their teeth in.
Somebody is lying.
Unfortunately our current leadership doesn't know either, or at least doesn't care.
I do agree with you on the Omnibus bills. It is reprehensible to tie Maui or now Hurrican Idela relief to any other program, especially war funds. Maybe I am more of a political prude, as I have no problem supporting Ukraine but do not tie it to humanitarian relief to get it funded. Call it what it is and let it stand alone.Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Russia will run out of money, ammo, etc.....before we hit the $1T mark.be said:I don't support an offensive war with Russia or anyone else. If we go to war with Russia, it will only be because they attacked a NATO ally. And my assumption is that it will likely end humanity/civilization as we know it, if that happens.Quote:
Is there a limit or redline you have?
How many trillions spent would be too much on this war? Or do you not care?
If it got to the point where DC considers direct US war against Russia, do you support it?
I don't want your take on whether these things will happen or not, I want to know your position if they do happen.
And as for Tucker's false flag nonsense, a Russian missile has already crossed into Poland and it didn't spark NATO's involvement, so the idea that the West is just itching for WWIII with Russia is nonsense. The notion is completely unsupported by decades of history.
Everyone is and has been trying to avoid a direct military conflict with Russia. Now that Russia's aggression has forced a strong opinion, we just disagree on how to best avoid that.
I firmly believe that a free/independent Ukraine (with the side effect of a weakened Russia) is more conducive to long term peace. And as long as Ukraine wants to fight for its freedom, I'm for supporting their efforts. Decades of Russian appeasement by the West/NATO put Ukraine in this situation. We're paying for past mistakes in money while Ukrainians pay with their lives.
And we would end up spending a lot less if Biden would quit slow walking the aid. Load Uke up with the tools they need and let them win the damned thing.
1. Biden is not slow walking anything. Both Democratic and GOP leadership have opened the flood gates on the war machine. In fact they just attached another $200 million in Ukraine war funding to a bill to help the people of Hawaii. So if your a Rep. in Congress and you want to help actual Americans recover from a horrific fire...you have to also give money to the Zelensky regime in Kyiv.
"That means that funding Hawaii's needs for Maui's recovery has been tied to funding to back Ukraine's military, an increasingly unpopular ..."
https://www.civilbeat.org/2023/08/fema-money-for-maui-disaster-relief-may-get-caught-up-in-a-partisan-fight-over-ukraine/
The idea that the USA ruling class is "not doing enough for this Ukraine war" is the kind of insane thing only a madman would argue or some kind of shyster ghoul who works as a military-industrial complex salesman in N. Virginia.... Northrup Grumman type.
2. Russia might run out of money....being cut off from EU trade has certainly hurt them badly....but with Chinese and Iranian support its very very unlikely they run of of ammo or drones any time in the future.
Vivek is an extremely smart guy.
He handles interviews better than any candidate I've ever seen.
Super impressed by the guy
He handles interviews better than any candidate I've ever seen.
Super impressed by the guy
Look up how he made his money and the Alzheimer Drug...Doc Holliday said:
Vivek is an extremely smart guy.
He handles interviews better than any candidate I've ever seen.
Super impressed by the guy
He responded to that. He didn't make any money off of it.FLBear5630 said:Look up how he made his money and the Alzheimer Drug...Doc Holliday said:
Vivek is an extremely smart guy.
He handles interviews better than any candidate I've ever seen.
Super impressed by the guy
He's also made very successful drugs that have saved lives.
We’re surging. The knives are out. “Alzheimer’s Drug.” “Israel.” “Iran.” Here’s the TRUTH. Stay skeptical. Keep the questions coming & I’ll keep answering. 🇺🇸 pic.twitter.com/FxXmUnwgRK
— Vivek Ramaswamy (@VivekGRamaswamy) August 31, 2023
KaiBear said:Admire your patience attempting to educate those who can't comprehend how we got into WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Kosovo War, Iraq War ( twice ) and Afghanistan.Doc Holliday said:Zero political and media opposition is not democracy no matter how much you pretend it is.bear2be2 said:I'll likely have a larger response later, but Doc's comment here once again shows a fundamental ignorance of both Ukrainian and world history.FLBear5630 said:Get the picture...Doc Holliday said:By what measure is Ukraine 'soverign', by what measure is it a 'democracy'?bear2be2 said:Clearly you haven't paid much attention to Ukraine's history since the fall of the Soviet Union. Equating government corruption to an acceptance of such by the people is silly.Doc Holliday said:No they won't. Ukraine has been one of the most corrupt countries on the planet for a long ass time and their people haven't done squat about it.bear2be2 said:No one will need to tell the Ukrainian people. If this is a long-term threat to their voting rights, they'll do the same thing to Zelensky they've done to past leaders that tried to overreach their authority or circumvent the will of the people.muddybrazos said:bear2be2 said:There's a pretty simple way to figure out which side is the right one from both a historical and moral standpoint. It's the one that doesn't try to remove all agency from and ignore the wishes of the Ukrainian people, who have repeatedly and with their own blood told us they don't want to be ruled or controlled by Russia or its puppets.whiterock said:Every one of those bullet points can be footnoted to uncontested history.Sam Lowry said:8:00 - 8:50 MWFwhiterock said:Well, you have pointed out a disjointed argument that begs a question plainly at odds with history.Quote:Quote:why is it reprehensible?Quote:Quote:You're mistaking (failed) Russian appeasement for some more sinister American/NATO motive of your creation.Quote:Why isn't NATO admitting Ukraine if this was the issue to begin with ?Quote:You mean Russia's agreement with a puppet head of state, who was eventually run out on a rail ... to Russia?Quote:
We'll never understand Russia's rationale if the fact that it's Russian is all it takes to negate it. That's circular reasoning.
If Russia's agreements with Ukraine mean nothing, then neither do ours. You can't have it both ways.
The Soviet Union fell. Russia doesn't get to control what former Soviet states do anymore, regardless of what Putin believes. No one has done more than Putin has to push Ukraine toward democracy and an ideological alignment with the Western world.
Thousands of people are already dead, millions forced to leave their homes.
Yet now when Ukraine needs NATO the most, magically no invitation shows up.
Really think Russia invades Ukraine if they still had their nuclear stockpile; one of the largest in the world ?
It was the US that convinced Urkraine to give them up; not Russia.
Ukraine was disarmed and not admitted to NATO because the West didn't want war with Russia. Unfortunately, Russia has all but insisted on it. Appeasement doesn't work.
The United States is using the blood of Ukrainians to fight a proxy war with Russia in the hope of deposing Putin.
A reprehensible act.
And only those filled with 'my country right or wrong' jingoism ( or the inability to study the events leading up to the war ) can fail to admit it .
The Ukes are highly motivated to fight to expel an invading army. How could it possibly be immoral to support them?
Sam and I have repeatedly pointed out how Ukraine was manipulated into this war.
How they can't even negotiate an end to the war without US approval.
You simply chop to ignore the realities, which of course is your right.
Here's a timeline:
-Yanukovich )who hailed from Donbas) was popularly elected promising to continue a pro-EU platform.
-In response to RUSSIAN pressure, Yanukovich vetoed the EU bill he'd promised to support.
-The Ukrainian Parliament removed Yanukovich from office.
-RUSSIA started a "little green men" spec op in Donbass.
-RUSSIA seized Crimea.
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Poroshenko
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Zelensky
-RUSSIA invaded Ukraine.
Facts are facts.
There would be no war in Ukraine had Russia not invaded it THREE TIMES in the last 10 years. The idea that USA somehow manipulated all the actors involved to take actions which would lead to war....a war that threatens US and NATO interests in the region...is just plain goofy. To the extent that your arguments against further US military support for Ukraine is premised on such faulty history, it undermines your entire argument (which is laced with all kinds of ignorance of history and the dynamics of world affairs.)
Now, all that said, there are principled grounds to oppose further funding, foremost of which are the varied budgetary reasons. They are at best not persuasive. Ergo our continued support with strong support of the American public, who at least in the main grasp that Russian victory is bad and Ukrainian victory is good.
Propaganda 101
Prof. J. Whiterock (BS, 2023)
The "blame America for the Ukraine War" cannot.
We can talk all we want about the effectiveness of the Ukrainian government or the United States' role in that region, but the Ukrainian people themselves want a free democracy and they've resisted (sometimes violently) every time Russian interference has put that in jeopardy.Dictator Zelensky shouldn’t get another fucking penny! pic.twitter.com/U5KwgnNgvM
— Gunther Eagleman™ (@GuntherEagleman) August 28, 2023
Someone should tell the Ukranian people that they dont get a free democracy bc their president is a tyrant.
That's my point. The Ukrainian people want democracy. And they've proven on a number of occasions they'll fight for it. Zelensky would be foolish to overplay his hand where elections are concerned.
Like most new democracies, Ukraine has had its hiccups, but the people have steadfastly stood on the side of free, democratic rule. And those who have tried to circumvent that have been summarily rejected and eventually ousted.
To suggest they "haven't done squat" is patently false. It's a ridiculously ignorant take.
1. Under martial law
2. Banned all oppositional parties
3. Banned all oppositional media
4. Not allowing its male population to leave.
If that's democracy, so is Iran, China and North Korea.
What happened?
If those things disqualify a country from calling itself a democracy, the US isn't one either. If you were to poll American men above the age of about 93, you'd find that almost every one of them was either drafted or enlisted in one military branch or another to avoid being drafted. If, God forbid, we ever have another world war, we could find ourselves in that position once again.
Mandatory military service is nothing new. And you don't have to live in an authoritarian state to subject to it.
Maybe Ukrainians should be allowed to vote?
I'm tired of being told "If we don't stop Russia in Ukraine, they'll take the whole Eastern Europe!" by the same people who've said for last 15 months that Russia only has two more weeks of missiles left and that Ukraine is kicking their teeth in.
Somebody is lying.
Unfortunately our current leadership doesn't know either, or at least doesn't care.
Judging by the kind of push back you guys get on sic'em365 most Baylor alumni don't care either.
The disastrous foreign wars that Washington has gotten us into over the past 25 years are just forgotten like a fart in the wind.
Sitting at home from their computer screens in Waco and DFW they are ready to spend trillions more on wars in God knows where if the talking heads in the media tell them its needed.
Yep trillions spent and thousands of American lives lost, yet some insist on repeating the same mistakes over and over again.Redbrickbear said:KaiBear said:Admire your patience attempting to educate those who can't comprehend how we got into WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Kosovo War, Iraq War ( twice ) and Afghanistan.Doc Holliday said:Zero political and media opposition is not democracy no matter how much you pretend it is.bear2be2 said:I'll likely have a larger response later, but Doc's comment here once again shows a fundamental ignorance of both Ukrainian and world history.FLBear5630 said:Get the picture...Doc Holliday said:By what measure is Ukraine 'soverign', by what measure is it a 'democracy'?bear2be2 said:Clearly you haven't paid much attention to Ukraine's history since the fall of the Soviet Union. Equating government corruption to an acceptance of such by the people is silly.Doc Holliday said:No they won't. Ukraine has been one of the most corrupt countries on the planet for a long ass time and their people haven't done squat about it.bear2be2 said:No one will need to tell the Ukrainian people. If this is a long-term threat to their voting rights, they'll do the same thing to Zelensky they've done to past leaders that tried to overreach their authority or circumvent the will of the people.muddybrazos said:bear2be2 said:There's a pretty simple way to figure out which side is the right one from both a historical and moral standpoint. It's the one that doesn't try to remove all agency from and ignore the wishes of the Ukrainian people, who have repeatedly and with their own blood told us they don't want to be ruled or controlled by Russia or its puppets.whiterock said:Every one of those bullet points can be footnoted to uncontested history.Sam Lowry said:8:00 - 8:50 MWFwhiterock said:Well, you have pointed out a disjointed argument that begs a question plainly at odds with history.Quote:Quote:why is it reprehensible?Quote:Quote:You're mistaking (failed) Russian appeasement for some more sinister American/NATO motive of your creation.Quote:Why isn't NATO admitting Ukraine if this was the issue to begin with ?Quote:You mean Russia's agreement with a puppet head of state, who was eventually run out on a rail ... to Russia?Quote:
We'll never understand Russia's rationale if the fact that it's Russian is all it takes to negate it. That's circular reasoning.
If Russia's agreements with Ukraine mean nothing, then neither do ours. You can't have it both ways.
The Soviet Union fell. Russia doesn't get to control what former Soviet states do anymore, regardless of what Putin believes. No one has done more than Putin has to push Ukraine toward democracy and an ideological alignment with the Western world.
Thousands of people are already dead, millions forced to leave their homes.
Yet now when Ukraine needs NATO the most, magically no invitation shows up.
Really think Russia invades Ukraine if they still had their nuclear stockpile; one of the largest in the world ?
It was the US that convinced Urkraine to give them up; not Russia.
Ukraine was disarmed and not admitted to NATO because the West didn't want war with Russia. Unfortunately, Russia has all but insisted on it. Appeasement doesn't work.
The United States is using the blood of Ukrainians to fight a proxy war with Russia in the hope of deposing Putin.
A reprehensible act.
And only those filled with 'my country right or wrong' jingoism ( or the inability to study the events leading up to the war ) can fail to admit it .
The Ukes are highly motivated to fight to expel an invading army. How could it possibly be immoral to support them?
Sam and I have repeatedly pointed out how Ukraine was manipulated into this war.
How they can't even negotiate an end to the war without US approval.
You simply chop to ignore the realities, which of course is your right.
Here's a timeline:
-Yanukovich )who hailed from Donbas) was popularly elected promising to continue a pro-EU platform.
-In response to RUSSIAN pressure, Yanukovich vetoed the EU bill he'd promised to support.
-The Ukrainian Parliament removed Yanukovich from office.
-RUSSIA started a "little green men" spec op in Donbass.
-RUSSIA seized Crimea.
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Poroshenko
-Ukraine elected a pro-EU president Zelensky
-RUSSIA invaded Ukraine.
Facts are facts.
There would be no war in Ukraine had Russia not invaded it THREE TIMES in the last 10 years. The idea that USA somehow manipulated all the actors involved to take actions which would lead to war....a war that threatens US and NATO interests in the region...is just plain goofy. To the extent that your arguments against further US military support for Ukraine is premised on such faulty history, it undermines your entire argument (which is laced with all kinds of ignorance of history and the dynamics of world affairs.)
Now, all that said, there are principled grounds to oppose further funding, foremost of which are the varied budgetary reasons. They are at best not persuasive. Ergo our continued support with strong support of the American public, who at least in the main grasp that Russian victory is bad and Ukrainian victory is good.
Propaganda 101
Prof. J. Whiterock (BS, 2023)
The "blame America for the Ukraine War" cannot.
We can talk all we want about the effectiveness of the Ukrainian government or the United States' role in that region, but the Ukrainian people themselves want a free democracy and they've resisted (sometimes violently) every time Russian interference has put that in jeopardy.Dictator Zelensky shouldn’t get another fucking penny! pic.twitter.com/U5KwgnNgvM
— Gunther Eagleman™ (@GuntherEagleman) August 28, 2023
Someone should tell the Ukranian people that they dont get a free democracy bc their president is a tyrant.
That's my point. The Ukrainian people want democracy. And they've proven on a number of occasions they'll fight for it. Zelensky would be foolish to overplay his hand where elections are concerned.
Like most new democracies, Ukraine has had its hiccups, but the people have steadfastly stood on the side of free, democratic rule. And those who have tried to circumvent that have been summarily rejected and eventually ousted.
To suggest they "haven't done squat" is patently false. It's a ridiculously ignorant take.
1. Under martial law
2. Banned all oppositional parties
3. Banned all oppositional media
4. Not allowing its male population to leave.
If that's democracy, so is Iran, China and North Korea.
What happened?
If those things disqualify a country from calling itself a democracy, the US isn't one either. If you were to poll American men above the age of about 93, you'd find that almost every one of them was either drafted or enlisted in one military branch or another to avoid being drafted. If, God forbid, we ever have another world war, we could find ourselves in that position once again.
Mandatory military service is nothing new. And you don't have to live in an authoritarian state to subject to it.
Maybe Ukrainians should be allowed to vote?
I'm tired of being told "If we don't stop Russia in Ukraine, they'll take the whole Eastern Europe!" by the same people who've said for last 15 months that Russia only has two more weeks of missiles left and that Ukraine is kicking their teeth in.
Somebody is lying.
Unfortunately our current leadership doesn't know either, or at least doesn't care.
Judging by the kind of push back you guys get on sic'em365 most Baylor alumni don't care either.
The disastrous foreign wars that Washington has gotten us into over the past 25 years are just forgotten like a fart in the wind.
Sitting at home from their computer screens in Waco and DFW they are ready to spend trillions more on wars in God knows where if the talking heads in the media tell them its needed.
As long as it is someone ELSE doing the fighting and dying.
He really didn't address the charge, which is that he bought a failed drug for pennies on the dollar, got his mother to doctor the data to create an IPO on it and drive up the stock prices until it inevitably crashed when everyone found out, by God, the failed drug still doesn't work.Doc Holliday said:He responded to that. He didn't make any money off of it.FLBear5630 said:Look up how he made his money and the Alzheimer Drug...Doc Holliday said:
Vivek is an extremely smart guy.
He handles interviews better than any candidate I've ever seen.
Super impressed by the guy
He's also made very successful drugs that have saved lives.We’re surging. The knives are out. “Alzheimer’s Drug.” “Israel.” “Iran.” Here’s the TRUTH. Stay skeptical. Keep the questions coming & I’ll keep answering. 🇺🇸 pic.twitter.com/FxXmUnwgRK
— Vivek Ramaswamy (@VivekGRamaswamy) August 31, 2023
And saying I didn't make any money off that doesn't really mean anything. You're taking a liar's word for it.
bear2be2 said:He really didn't address the charge, which is that he bought a failed drug for pennies on the dollar, got his mother to doctor the data to create an IPO on it and drive up the stock prices until it inevitably crashed when everyone found out, by God, the failed drug still doesn't work.Doc Holliday said:He responded to that. He didn't make any money off of it.FLBear5630 said:Look up how he made his money and the Alzheimer Drug...Doc Holliday said:
Vivek is an extremely smart guy.
He handles interviews better than any candidate I've ever seen.
Super impressed by the guy
He's also made very successful drugs that have saved lives.We’re surging. The knives are out. “Alzheimer’s Drug.” “Israel.” “Iran.” Here’s the TRUTH. Stay skeptical. Keep the questions coming & I’ll keep answering. 🇺🇸 pic.twitter.com/FxXmUnwgRK
— Vivek Ramaswamy (@VivekGRamaswamy) August 31, 2023
And saying I didn't make any money off that doesn't really mean anything. You're taking a liar's word for it.
People will look the other way for alot of things if they like the person. Hunter is guilty and should be on trial. That is beyond a doubt. Vivek didn't do anything wrong, so he pushed a failed drug with doctored data. We would all do it. He didn't make any money, we can find, so what's the harm. Pence didn't do what Trump wanted so no crime, what's the problem? See a pattern?
There are a few of us here with direct experience in foreign policy/national security/military execution, and as best I can tell we are in general agreement in support of Ukraine. The most outspoken voices for the con argument seem to be computer screen generals. Apologies in advance if I've mis-interpreted anything,Redbrickbear said:Quote:Admire your patience attempting to educate those who can't comprehend how we got into WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Kosovo War, Iraq War ( twice ) and Afghanistan.Quote:Zero political and media opposition is not democracy no matter how much you pretend it is.Quote:I'll likely have a larger response later, but Doc's comment here once again shows a fundamental ignorance of both Ukrainian and world history.Quote:Get the picture...Quote:
By what measure is Ukraine 'soverign', by what measure is it a 'democracy'?
1. Under martial law
2. Banned all oppositional parties
3. Banned all oppositional media
4. Not allowing its male population to leave.
If that's democracy, so is Iran, China and North Korea.
What happened?
If those things disqualify a country from calling itself a democracy, the US isn't one either. If you were to poll American men above the age of about 93, you'd find that almost every one of them was either drafted or enlisted in one military branch or another to avoid being drafted. If, God forbid, we ever have another world war, we could find ourselves in that position once again.
Mandatory military service is nothing new. And you don't have to live in an authoritarian state to subject to it.
Maybe Ukrainians should be allowed to vote?
I'm tired of being told "If we don't stop Russia in Ukraine, they'll take the whole Eastern Europe!" by the same people who've said for last 15 months that Russia only has two more weeks of missiles left and that Ukraine is kicking their teeth in.
Somebody is lying.
Unfortunately our current leadership doesn't know either, or at least doesn't care.
Judging by the kind of push back you guys get on sic'em365 most Baylor alumni don't care either.
No, we care a lot. It's why we advocate for supporting Ukraine.
The disastrous foreign wars that Washington has gotten us into over the past 25 years are just forgotten like a fart in the wind.
Disastrous? Expensive, for sure. Poorly executed, it could certainly be argued in many cases. Failed to achieve strategic objectives? Some, for sure. But disastrous? All of them? Unserious assertion....
Sitting at home from their computer screens in Waco and DFW they are ready to spend trillions more on wars in God knows where if the talking heads in the media tell them its needed.
whiterock said:There are a few of us here with direct experience in foreign policy/national security/military execution, and as best I can tell we are in general agreement in support of Ukraine. The most outspoken voices for the con argument seem to be computer screen generals. Apologies in advance if I've mis-interpreted anything,Redbrickbear said:Quote:Admire your patience attempting to educate those who can't comprehend how we got into WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Kosovo War, Iraq War ( twice ) and Afghanistan.Quote:Zero political and media opposition is not democracy no matter how much you pretend it is.Quote:I'll likely have a larger response later, but Doc's comment here once again shows a fundamental ignorance of both Ukrainian and world history.Quote:Get the picture...Quote:
By what measure is Ukraine 'soverign', by what measure is it a 'democracy'?
1. Under martial law
2. Banned all oppositional parties
3. Banned all oppositional media
4. Not allowing its male population to leave.
If that's democracy, so is Iran, China and North Korea.
What happened?
If those things disqualify a country from calling itself a democracy, the US isn't one either. If you were to poll American men above the age of about 93, you'd find that almost every one of them was either drafted or enlisted in one military branch or another to avoid being drafted. If, God forbid, we ever have another world war, we could find ourselves in that position once again.
Mandatory military service is nothing new. And you don't have to live in an authoritarian state to subject to it.
Maybe Ukrainians should be allowed to vote?
I'm tired of being told "If we don't stop Russia in Ukraine, they'll take the whole Eastern Europe!" by the same people who've said for last 15 months that Russia only has two more weeks of missiles left and that Ukraine is kicking their teeth in.
Somebody is lying.
Unfortunately our current leadership doesn't know either, or at least doesn't care.
Judging by the kind of push back you guys get on sic'em365 most Baylor alumni don't care either.
No, we care a lot. It's why we advocate for supporting Ukraine.
The disastrous foreign wars that Washington has gotten us into over the past 25 years are just forgotten like a fart in the wind.
Disastrous? Expensive, for sure. Poorly executed, it could certainly be argued in many cases. Failed to achieve strategic objectives? Some, for sure. But disastrous? All of them? Unserious assertion....
Sitting at home from their computer screens in Waco and DFW they are ready to spend trillions more on wars in God knows where if the talking heads in the media tell them its needed.
The "computer screen generals" on here you dislike want to prevent any more stupid wars and useless blood shed.
The keyboard warriors you advocate for want to see a shooting war in Eastern Europe that drags the whole damn continent into a blood bath…one that could turn nuclear…or even global if China got involved.
And as far as "national security experts"….you wonkish sh*t heads have failed in a spectacular fashion over the past 25 years. Wasting trillions of dollars, getting thousands of American young men killed or wounded, displacing & killing millions of 3rd worlders, and in general making a mess of things globally.
Maybe it's time you boys sat down and shut your mouths for a while?
Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:There are a few of us here with direct experience in foreign policy/national security/military execution, and as best I can tell we are in general agreement in support of Ukraine. The most outspoken voices for the con argument seem to be computer screen generals. Apologies in advance if I've mis-interpreted anything,Redbrickbear said:Quote:Admire your patience attempting to educate those who can't comprehend how we got into WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Kosovo War, Iraq War ( twice ) and Afghanistan.Quote:Zero political and media opposition is not democracy no matter how much you pretend it is.Quote:I'll likely have a larger response later, but Doc's comment here once again shows a fundamental ignorance of both Ukrainian and world history.Quote:Get the picture...Quote:
By what measure is Ukraine 'soverign', by what measure is it a 'democracy'?
1. Under martial law
2. Banned all oppositional parties
3. Banned all oppositional media
4. Not allowing its male population to leave.
If that's democracy, so is Iran, China and North Korea.
What happened?
If those things disqualify a country from calling itself a democracy, the US isn't one either. If you were to poll American men above the age of about 93, you'd find that almost every one of them was either drafted or enlisted in one military branch or another to avoid being drafted. If, God forbid, we ever have another world war, we could find ourselves in that position once again.
Mandatory military service is nothing new. And you don't have to live in an authoritarian state to subject to it.
Maybe Ukrainians should be allowed to vote?
I'm tired of being told "If we don't stop Russia in Ukraine, they'll take the whole Eastern Europe!" by the same people who've said for last 15 months that Russia only has two more weeks of missiles left and that Ukraine is kicking their teeth in.
Somebody is lying.
Unfortunately our current leadership doesn't know either, or at least doesn't care.
Judging by the kind of push back you guys get on sic'em365 most Baylor alumni don't care either.
No, we care a lot. It's why we advocate for supporting Ukraine.
The disastrous foreign wars that Washington has gotten us into over the past 25 years are just forgotten like a fart in the wind.
Disastrous? Expensive, for sure. Poorly executed, it could certainly be argued in many cases. Failed to achieve strategic objectives? Some, for sure. But disastrous? All of them? Unserious assertion....
Sitting at home from their computer screens in Waco and DFW they are ready to spend trillions more on wars in God knows where if the talking heads in the media tell them its needed.
The computer screen generals on here you dislike want to prevent any more stupid wars and useless blood shed.
The keyboard warriors you advocate for want to see a shooting war in Eastern Europe that drags the whole damn continent into a blood bath…one that could turn nuclear…or even global if China got involved.
And as far as "national security experts"….you wonkish sh*t heads have failed in a spectacular fashion over the past 25 years. Wasting trillions of dollars, getting thousands of American young men killed or wounded, displacing & killing millions of 3rd worlders, and in general making a mess of things globally.
Maybe it's time you boys sat down and shut your mouths for a while?
LOL. Maybe it's time you vatniks should stop boosting pro-RU BS.
Bear8084 said:Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:There are a few of us here with direct experience in foreign policy/national security/military execution, and as best I can tell we are in general agreement in support of Ukraine. The most outspoken voices for the con argument seem to be computer screen generals. Apologies in advance if I've mis-interpreted anything,Redbrickbear said:Quote:Admire your patience attempting to educate those who can't comprehend how we got into WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Kosovo War, Iraq War ( twice ) and Afghanistan.Quote:Zero political and media opposition is not democracy no matter how much you pretend it is.Quote:I'll likely have a larger response later, but Doc's comment here once again shows a fundamental ignorance of both Ukrainian and world history.Quote:Get the picture...Quote:
By what measure is Ukraine 'soverign', by what measure is it a 'democracy'?
1. Under martial law
2. Banned all oppositional parties
3. Banned all oppositional media
4. Not allowing its male population to leave.
If that's democracy, so is Iran, China and North Korea.
What happened?
If those things disqualify a country from calling itself a democracy, the US isn't one either. If you were to poll American men above the age of about 93, you'd find that almost every one of them was either drafted or enlisted in one military branch or another to avoid being drafted. If, God forbid, we ever have another world war, we could find ourselves in that position once again.
Mandatory military service is nothing new. And you don't have to live in an authoritarian state to subject to it.
Maybe Ukrainians should be allowed to vote?
I'm tired of being told "If we don't stop Russia in Ukraine, they'll take the whole Eastern Europe!" by the same people who've said for last 15 months that Russia only has two more weeks of missiles left and that Ukraine is kicking their teeth in.
Somebody is lying.
Unfortunately our current leadership doesn't know either, or at least doesn't care.
Judging by the kind of push back you guys get on sic'em365 most Baylor alumni don't care either.
No, we care a lot. It's why we advocate for supporting Ukraine.
The disastrous foreign wars that Washington has gotten us into over the past 25 years are just forgotten like a fart in the wind.
Disastrous? Expensive, for sure. Poorly executed, it could certainly be argued in many cases. Failed to achieve strategic objectives? Some, for sure. But disastrous? All of them? Unserious assertion....
Sitting at home from their computer screens in Waco and DFW they are ready to spend trillions more on wars in God knows where if the talking heads in the media tell them its needed.
The computer screen generals on here you dislike want to prevent any more stupid wars and useless blood shed.
The keyboard warriors you advocate for want to see a shooting war in Eastern Europe that drags the whole damn continent into a blood bath…one that could turn nuclear…or even global if China got involved.
And as far as "national security experts"….you wonkish sh*t heads have failed in a spectacular fashion over the past 25 years. Wasting trillions of dollars, getting thousands of American young men killed or wounded, displacing & killing millions of 3rd worlders, and in general making a mess of things globally.
Maybe it's time you boys sat down and shut your mouths for a while?
LOL. Maybe it's time you vatniks should stop boosting pro-RU BS.
The old "Reds under the bed" propaganda is now any politician I don't like is a "Russian bot".
You Washington security state goons need some new material.
Redbrickbear said:Bear8084 said:Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:There are a few of us here with direct experience in foreign policy/national security/military execution, and as best I can tell we are in general agreement in support of Ukraine. The most outspoken voices for the con argument seem to be computer screen generals. Apologies in advance if I've mis-interpreted anything,Redbrickbear said:Quote:Admire your patience attempting to educate those who can't comprehend how we got into WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Kosovo War, Iraq War ( twice ) and Afghanistan.Quote:Zero political and media opposition is not democracy no matter how much you pretend it is.Quote:I'll likely have a larger response later, but Doc's comment here once again shows a fundamental ignorance of both Ukrainian and world history.Quote:Get the picture...Quote:
By what measure is Ukraine 'soverign', by what measure is it a 'democracy'?
1. Under martial law
2. Banned all oppositional parties
3. Banned all oppositional media
4. Not allowing its male population to leave.
If that's democracy, so is Iran, China and North Korea.
What happened?
If those things disqualify a country from calling itself a democracy, the US isn't one either. If you were to poll American men above the age of about 93, you'd find that almost every one of them was either drafted or enlisted in one military branch or another to avoid being drafted. If, God forbid, we ever have another world war, we could find ourselves in that position once again.
Mandatory military service is nothing new. And you don't have to live in an authoritarian state to subject to it.
Maybe Ukrainians should be allowed to vote?
I'm tired of being told "If we don't stop Russia in Ukraine, they'll take the whole Eastern Europe!" by the same people who've said for last 15 months that Russia only has two more weeks of missiles left and that Ukraine is kicking their teeth in.
Somebody is lying.
Unfortunately our current leadership doesn't know either, or at least doesn't care.
Judging by the kind of push back you guys get on sic'em365 most Baylor alumni don't care either.
No, we care a lot. It's why we advocate for supporting Ukraine.
The disastrous foreign wars that Washington has gotten us into over the past 25 years are just forgotten like a fart in the wind.
Disastrous? Expensive, for sure. Poorly executed, it could certainly be argued in many cases. Failed to achieve strategic objectives? Some, for sure. But disastrous? All of them? Unserious assertion....
Sitting at home from their computer screens in Waco and DFW they are ready to spend trillions more on wars in God knows where if the talking heads in the media tell them its needed.
The computer screen generals on here you dislike want to prevent any more stupid wars and useless blood shed.
The keyboard warriors you advocate for want to see a shooting war in Eastern Europe that drags the whole damn continent into a blood bath…one that could turn nuclear…or even global if China got involved.
And as far as "national security experts"….you wonkish sh*t heads have failed in a spectacular fashion over the past 25 years. Wasting trillions of dollars, getting thousands of American young men killed or wounded, displacing & killing millions of 3rd worlders, and in general making a mess of things globally.
Maybe it's time you boys sat down and shut your mouths for a while?
LOL. Maybe it's time you vatniks should stop boosting pro-RU BS.
"Reds under the bed" is now any politician I don't like is a Russian bot.
You Washington security state goons need some new material
You are fully aware of the useful idiots on Twitter that you share, correct? Truth hurts.
And the conspiracy theories you fall for over and over again...
Bear8084 said:Redbrickbear said:Bear8084 said:Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:There are a few of us here with direct experience in foreign policy/national security/military execution, and as best I can tell we are in general agreement in support of Ukraine. The most outspoken voices for the con argument seem to be computer screen generals. Apologies in advance if I've mis-interpreted anything,Redbrickbear said:Quote:Admire your patience attempting to educate those who can't comprehend how we got into WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Kosovo War, Iraq War ( twice ) and Afghanistan.Quote:Zero political and media opposition is not democracy no matter how much you pretend it is.Quote:I'll likely have a larger response later, but Doc's comment here once again shows a fundamental ignorance of both Ukrainian and world history.Quote:Get the picture...Quote:
By what measure is Ukraine 'soverign', by what measure is it a 'democracy'?
1. Under martial law
2. Banned all oppositional parties
3. Banned all oppositional media
4. Not allowing its male population to leave.
If that's democracy, so is Iran, China and North Korea.
What happened?
If those things disqualify a country from calling itself a democracy, the US isn't one either. If you were to poll American men above the age of about 93, you'd find that almost every one of them was either drafted or enlisted in one military branch or another to avoid being drafted. If, God forbid, we ever have another world war, we could find ourselves in that position once again.
Mandatory military service is nothing new. And you don't have to live in an authoritarian state to subject to it.
Maybe Ukrainians should be allowed to vote?
I'm tired of being told "If we don't stop Russia in Ukraine, they'll take the whole Eastern Europe!" by the same people who've said for last 15 months that Russia only has two more weeks of missiles left and that Ukraine is kicking their teeth in.
Somebody is lying.
Unfortunately our current leadership doesn't know either, or at least doesn't care.
Judging by the kind of push back you guys get on sic'em365 most Baylor alumni don't care either.
No, we care a lot. It's why we advocate for supporting Ukraine.
The disastrous foreign wars that Washington has gotten us into over the past 25 years are just forgotten like a fart in the wind.
Disastrous? Expensive, for sure. Poorly executed, it could certainly be argued in many cases. Failed to achieve strategic objectives? Some, for sure. But disastrous? All of them? Unserious assertion....
Sitting at home from their computer screens in Waco and DFW they are ready to spend trillions more on wars in God knows where if the talking heads in the media tell them its needed.
The computer screen generals on here you dislike want to prevent any more stupid wars and useless blood shed.
The keyboard warriors you advocate for want to see a shooting war in Eastern Europe that drags the whole damn continent into a blood bath…one that could turn nuclear…or even global if China got involved.
And as far as "national security experts"….you wonkish sh*t heads have failed in a spectacular fashion over the past 25 years. Wasting trillions of dollars, getting thousands of American young men killed or wounded, displacing & killing millions of 3rd worlders, and in general making a mess of things globally.
Maybe it's time you boys sat down and shut your mouths for a while?
LOL. Maybe it's time you vatniks should stop boosting pro-RU BS.
"Reds under the bed" is now any politician I don't like is a Russian bot.
You Washington security state goons need some new material
You are fully aware of the useful idiots on Twitter that you share, correct? Truth hurts.
And the conspiracy theories you fall for over and over again...
Conspiracy theories like Trump was a Russian agent?
Buddy your side has been spreading conspiracy theories for decades to get us into wars, conflicts, and spend tax payer money on "freedom fighters" in the 3rd world.
Remember all the lies your side told to get us into the Iraq war disaster?
It's time your side took a time out