You are crossing Grace Doctrine in Paul's writings with Jesus Christ talking to law keeping Jews. The law was about works and Grace is about faith alone without works. You are in error

xfrodobagginsx said:

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You are crossing Grace Doctrine in Paul's writings with Jesus Christ talking to law keeping Jews. The law was about works and Grace is about faith alone without works. You are in error

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Yeah, I figured as much. Unfortunately you sound like you are part of the gospels are for the Jews camp. Well, hopefully someday you will get past this artificial dispensationalist wall that has been constructed in your mind and come to embrace the fullness of Christ's teachings.

False Dilemma fallacy there.

Realitybites said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

---

You are crossing Grace Doctrine in Paul's writings with Jesus Christ talking to law keeping Jews. The law was about works and Grace is about faith alone without works. You are in error

---

Yeah, I figured as much. Unfortunately you sound like you are part of the gospels are for the Jews camp. Well, hopefully someday you will get past this artificial dispensationalist wall that has been constructed in your mind and come to embrace the fullness of Christ's teachings.

---

It's not artificial, it's Biblical. You need to actually believe Scripture. Who do you think gave Paul his Doctrine?

.

Ephesians 3:1-6 KJV
[1] For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, [2] if ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: [3] how that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, [4] whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) [5] which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; [6] that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

The Dispensation of the grace of God was given to PAUL for the Church, not the 12. They had a different program and were ministers of Israel only.

.

Greatest Bible Teacher Walks You Through The Bible In 25 Minute Lessons:

Through the Bible with Les Feldick https://share.google/RrQ28rI1iZE8NXkPF

Please take the time to read this first post if you haven't yet

Tomorrow is Sunday. Find a good Bible believing Church and attend.

.

A PRAYER OF SALVATION:

If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

Studying The Bible Is Essential To Christians Growth. Click Here To Walk Through The Bible Verse By Verse From The Beginning, In 25 Minute Lessons:

https://www.lesfeldick.org/

.

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

A PRAYER OF SALVATION:

If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

Studying The Bible Is Essential To Christians Growth. Click Here To Walk Through The Bible Verse By Verse From The Beginning, In 25 Minute Lessons:

https://www.lesfeldick.org/

---

No prayer saves us. Jesus saves us.
1. The New Testament never presents a prescribed "sinner's prayer" as the means of salvation.
The apostles consistently call people to repent, believe, and follow Christ, not to recite a particular prayer.

• Jesus: "Repent and believe the good news." (Mark 1:15)
• Peter: "Repent and be baptized." (Acts 2:38)
• Paul: "Believe in the Lord Jesus." (Acts 16:31)

Prayer is certainly an appropriate response to faith, but Scripture never teaches that saying certain words secures salvation.
2. It can confuse faith as a one-time prayer and not an ongoing daily trust in Jesus.
The prayer may unintentionally suggest that salvation happens because someone has sincerely recited these words.
In the New Testament, saving faith is not merely a decision at one moment but an ongoing life of trusting and following Christ. Jesus repeatedly calls people to "follow me," emphasizing discipleship rather than a single event.
3. It may create false assurance.
The statement,

Quote:

---

"If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ...you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven."

---

contains an important qualifier"truly"but in practice many people hear:

Quote:

---

"I prayed the prayer, therefore I'm saved."

---

The New Testament points people toward evidence of a transformed life:

• abiding in Christ (John 15)
• loving others (1 John)
• perseverance in faith (Hebrews)
• bearing fruit (Matthew 7)

Assurance grows from God's promises confirmed by the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life, not merely from remembering that one once prayed a prayer.
4. It reduces salvation primarily to going to heaven.
The conclusion says,

Quote:

---

"Now that you are on your way to heaven..."

---

The biblical message is much richer.
The gospel is about:

• reconciliation with God,
• becoming part of God's people,
• participation in God's kingdom,
• being transformed into Christ's likeness,
• and ultimately the resurrection of the dead and the renewal of creation.

The New Testament's hope is not simply "going to heaven" but resurrection and the new creation.
5. It can separate conversion from discipleship.
The wording suggests:
[ol]

Pray.

You're saved.

Then attend church and get baptized.

[/ol]
Yet Jesus' Great Commission joins faith, baptism, and lifelong discipleship together (Matthew 28:1920). Baptism is not merely an optional next step but the ordinary public entrance into the Christian community.
6. It individualizes salvation.
The prayer focuses almost entirely on "me."
The New Testament certainly calls individuals to faith, but immediately places believers into the body of Christ. Salvation is both personal and communal.
7. Some of the language is biblically sound.
To be fair, much of the prayer reflects biblical truth:

• Jesus is Lord.
• Christ died for our sins.
• He rose from the dead.
• Salvation is through Christ alone.
• Faith and trust in Christ are essential.

The concern is not primarily with these affirmations but with presenting the prayer itself as the decisive act that secures salvation.
A more biblical emphasis
Instead of urging people to pray a particular formula, many pastors would say something like:

Quote:

---

The good news is that God has acted in Jesus Christ to reconcile the world to himself. Christ died for our sins and was raised from the dead. God now calls every person to repent, trust in Christ, receive his grace, be baptized, become part of Christ's Church, and follow him throughout life. No prayer saves us; Christ saves us. Prayer is one way we respond to his grace with repentance, faith, and worship.

---

Waco1947 said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

A PRAYER OF SALVATION:

If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

Studying The Bible Is Essential To Christians Growth. Click Here To Walk Through The Bible Verse By Verse From The Beginning, In 25 Minute Lessons:

https://www.lesfeldick.org/

---

No prayer saves us. Jesus saves us.
1. The New Testament never presents a prescribed "sinner's prayer" as the means of salvation.
The apostles consistently call people to repent, believe, and follow Christ, not to recite a particular prayer.

• Jesus: "Repent and believe the good news." (Mark 1:15)
• Peter: "Repent and be baptized." (Acts 2:38)
• Paul: "Believe in the Lord Jesus." (Acts 16:31)

Prayer is certainly an appropriate response to faith, but Scripture never teaches that saying certain words secures salvation.
2. It can confuse faith as a one-time prayer and not an ongoing daily trust in Jesus.
The prayer may unintentionally suggest that salvation happens because someone has sincerely recited these words.
In the New Testament, saving faith is not merely a decision at one moment but an ongoing life of trusting and following Christ. Jesus repeatedly calls people to "follow me," emphasizing discipleship rather than a single event.
3. It may create false assurance.
The statement,

Quote:

---

"If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ...you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven."

---

contains an important qualifier"truly"but in practice many people hear:

Quote:

---

"I prayed the prayer, therefore I'm saved."

---

The New Testament points people toward evidence of a transformed life:

• abiding in Christ (John 15)
• loving others (1 John)
• perseverance in faith (Hebrews)
• bearing fruit (Matthew 7)

Assurance grows from God's promises confirmed by the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life, not merely from remembering that one once prayed a prayer.
4. It reduces salvation primarily to going to heaven.
The conclusion says,

Quote:

---

"Now that you are on your way to heaven..."

---

The biblical message is much richer.
The gospel is about:

• reconciliation with God,
• becoming part of God's people,
• participation in God's kingdom,
• being transformed into Christ's likeness,
• and ultimately the resurrection of the dead and the renewal of creation.

The New Testament's hope is not simply "going to heaven" but resurrection and the new creation.
5. It can separate conversion from discipleship.
The wording suggests:
[ol]

Pray.

You're saved.

Then attend church and get baptized.

[/ol]
Yet Jesus' Great Commission joins faith, baptism, and lifelong discipleship together (Matthew 28:1920). Baptism is not merely an optional next step but the ordinary public entrance into the Christian community.
6. It individualizes salvation.
The prayer focuses almost entirely on "me."
The New Testament certainly calls individuals to faith, but immediately places believers into the body of Christ. Salvation is both personal and communal.
7. Some of the language is biblically sound.
To be fair, much of the prayer reflects biblical truth:

• Jesus is Lord.
• Christ died for our sins.
• He rose from the dead.
• Salvation is through Christ alone.
• Faith and trust in Christ are essential.

The concern is not primarily with these affirmations but with presenting the prayer itself as the decisive act that secures salvation.
A more biblical emphasis
Instead of urging people to pray a particular formula, many pastors would say something like:

Quote:

---

The good news is that God has acted in Jesus Christ to reconcile the world to himself. Christ died for our sins and was raised from the dead. God now calls every person to repent, trust in Christ, receive his grace, be baptized, become part of Christ's Church, and follow him throughout life. No prayer saves us; Christ saves us. Prayer is one way we respond to his grace with repentance, faith, and worship.

---

---

Respectfully I disagree with you. First of all Repent, believe and be Baptized is part of the Kingdom Gospel and is NOT the Gospel of Grace that Paul Preaches to the Church. Secondly, a man can and will be saved if the prayer is of faith in Christ, believing in His heart that Jesus died and rose again for His sins.

Romans 10:9, 10-13 affirms this. It confesses Christ with the mouth, and it says it believes that Jesus died and rose again...with the heart one believes to righteousness and mouth confession is made unto salvation....then it says "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". The prayer clearly does this. So I reject your arguement as false.

Romans 10:9-10, 13 KJV

[9] that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

You are preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, nit grace and then you tell me I am doing it wrong because I preach Paul's Gospel of grace. I will agree with you that the prayer MUST be done in truth faith.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Respectfully I disagree with you. First of all Repent, believe and be Baptized is part of the Kingdom Gospel and is NOT the Gospel of Grace that Paul Preaches to the Church. Secondly, a man can and will be saved if the prayer is of faith in Christ, believing in His heart that Jesus died and rose again for His sins.

Romans 10:9, 10-13 affirms this. It confesses Christ with the mouth, and it says it believes that Jesus died and rose again...with the heart one believes to righteousness and mouth confession is made unto salvation....then it says "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". The prayer clearly does this. So I reject your arguement as false.

---

Much of Romans is written to distinguish the terms of salvation according to God:

"[9] that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
- Romans 10:9-10, 13 KJV

...with the terms of salvation the Jews had come to believe in:

"knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."
- Galatians 2:16

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."
- Romans 4:1-3

and now the Gospel of Luke, which is also consistent with Paul's teaching.

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
- Luke 8:10-14

You see, there is no Gospel of the Kingdom and Gospel of Grace as you present it. God's terms of engagement have always been the same from Abraham to Noah to the Jews to Christ. For "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." - Hebrews 13:8

And there is no simple incantation combined with a declaration of belief that gets you a boarding pass to heaven at a certain point in time. It's not the end of the check in process like what happens at an airport. I understand the appeal. It is like those AI internet ads that promise to show you "this one neat trick" as a life hack, except the sinners prayer is presented as an eternal life hack. But here's the reality of it:

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it."
- Matthew 16:24-25

The prayer of the publican is only the beginning of the race, not the end. It is the point in your life where you pick up that cross and begin the lifelong journey of being Christ's disciple.

Realitybites said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Respectfully I disagree with you. First of all Repent, believe and be Baptized is part of the Kingdom Gospel and is NOT the Gospel of Grace that Paul Preaches to the Church. Secondly, a man can and will be saved if the prayer is of faith in Christ, believing in His heart that Jesus died and rose again for His sins.

Romans 10:9, 10-13 affirms this. It confesses Christ with the mouth, and it says it believes that Jesus died and rose again...with the heart one believes to righteousness and mouth confession is made unto salvation....then it says "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". The prayer clearly does this. So I reject your arguement as false.

---

Much of Romans is written to distinguish the terms of salvation according to God:

"[9] that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
- Romans 10:9-10, 13 KJV

...with the terms of salvation the Jews had come to believe in:

"knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."
- Galatians 2:16

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."
- Romans 4:1-3

and now the Gospel of Luke, which is also consistent with Paul's teaching.

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
- Luke 8:10-14

You see, there is no Gospel of the Kingdom and Gospel of Grace as you present it. God's terms of engagement have always been the same from Abraham to Noah to the Jews to Christ. For "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." - Hebrews 13:8

And there is no simple incantation combined with a declaration of belief that gets you a boarding pass to heaven at a certain point in time. It's not the end of the check in process like what happens at an airport. I understand the appeal. It is like those AI internet ads that promise to show you "this one neat trick" as a life hack, except the sinners prayer is presented as an eternal life hack. But here's the reality of it:

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it."
- Matthew 16:24-25

The prayer of the publican is only the beginning of the race, not the end. It is the point in your life where you pick up that cross and begin the lifelong journey of being Christ's disciple.

---

LikecI said, you sound like a Reformed Presbyterian or at least Reformed Theology, which is seriously flawed.

The message is not the same throughout the Bible. There are many different dispensations in history. Adam and Eve were under innocence until they sinned. Concience is another Dispensation, where men did what was right in his own eyes. This resulted in the Great flood. Law was another Dispensation. Grace is another Dispensation and there are more. These ages are times when God dealt with man in different ways. You can't tell me that these people placed their faith in Jesus Christ and what He dod on the cross to save them. It hadn't happened yet and they didn't understand the Scriptures that predicted it.

Salvation is not a process, it is a one time event, it happens when we submit our life to Christ in faith, believing that He died and rose again, shedding His blood on the cross to pay for our sins. We look to Hos finished work on the cross to save us and nothing more. We obey Him because He changes our nature at Salvation. We are born again of the Spirit.

I am Christ's Disciple, but I don't do it to obtain Salvation, I do it because He already saved me from my sins and I want to serve him.

There is nothing wrong with praying the prayer for salvation as long as you are submitting yourself to Him.and what He did on the cross to save you.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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LikecI said, you sound like a Reformed Presbyterian or at least Reformed Theology, which is seriously flawed.

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I'm not Reformed in any way shape or form. I'm part of the Church of Antioch. The one from Acts 11:19-21.

Realitybites said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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LikecI said, you sound like a Reformed Presbyterian or at least Reformed Theology, which is seriously flawed.

---

I'm not Reformed in any way shape or form. I'm part of the Church of Antioch. The one from Acts 11:19-21.

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Well then you should be a Dispensationalist, but if you were, you would understand where I am coming from. Remember that all teachings must line up with Scriptureand that whole "No musical Instruments" is not Scriptural. .Do you say you keep the Sabbath?

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Well then you should be a Dispensationalist, but if you were, you would understand where I am coming from. Remember that all teachings must line up with Scriptureand that whole "No musical Instruments" is not Scriptural. .Do you say you keep the Sabbath?

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The Church of Antioch is not dispensationalist. It has never been dispensationalist. Dispensationalism has only existed for ~ 150 years.

Do we keep the Jewish sabbath? No. We do not observe any Jewish feasts, nor those of any other faith that rejects Christ.

Not having musical instruments is in no way contradictory to scripture. This is the way that the church has worshiped from the beginning of Christianity. We do not let someone two thousand years after our founding come up with a new neat trick and move generations old boundary markers. That is to say no musical instruments, no women in the pulpit, no gay marriage, nothing of the sort.

1100 AD: What's this? You say you invented an organ. Well, good for you. Sounds pretty cool, actually. What? You want to put it in a church and incorporate it into the liturgy? How about no.

1960 AD: What's this? You say you invented the steel guitar and rock and roll? Awesome. Nice beat. What? You want to put it in a church and incorporate it into the liturgy? Ask the guy who invented the organ what we told him.

While I appreciate your zeal, it is without knowledge. By turning your back on the 2 millenia long history of the faith you've put yourself in a position where you truly do see through a glass darkly.

Let's do a little test.

What do you think Saint Paul is telling us in Romans 12:20?

You aren't required to have musical instraments, but you are kidding yourself if you don't think Israel or the early Church had musical instraments. You can use them or not use them: i will stick with Scripture:


Is a Harp invented in the 1500s?

Psalm 147:7 KJV
[7] Sing unto the LORD with thanksgiving; Sing praise upon the harp unto our God:

How about the cymbols?

Psalm 150:5 KJV
[5] Praise him upon the loud cymbals: Praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

How about stringed instraments and organs?

Psalm 150:4 KJV
[4] Praise him with the timbrel and dance: Praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

I think it means what it says and says what it means:

Romans 12:20 KJV
[20] Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

.

I guess I made my pomt. Do you see now that musical instruments are meant to be in the Church? It's Scriptural, even before Christ was born.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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I guess I made my pomt. Do you see now that musical instruments are meant to be in the Church? It's Scriptural, even before Christ was born.

---

The Psalms are Old Testament and are describing worship in the Jewish temple. Do you sacrifice animals at your church?

I knew that those verses from Psalms were exactly the ones that you were going to reach for. Which leaves you as a hyper dispensationalist in a very, very bad position. You want music at church, so you're reaching for verses from Psalms while rejecting parts or all of the actual Gospels as only for the Jews because they contain teachings you don't want to acknowledge as for the Church.

The Christian community held the same view, as we know from the apostolic and post-apostolic literature: instrumental music was thought unfit for religious services; the Christian sources are quite outspoken in their condemnation of instrumental performances.
-The Music of Post-Biblical Judaism I, 135

-The rejection of all musical instruments for Christian worship is consistent among the Fathers (early, nonbiblical Christian writers--rb). They were associated with pagan, orgiastic rites." (History of Sacred Music, X, 106)

You saying Bach was a pagan?