That's not how it works. You cannot say 'this way unless Scripture gives you another choice', unless that is what Scripture commands.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say how we must dispose of our bodies. Therefore it is evil to put your opinion as God's command.

Tradition does not have God's stamp upon it, no matter how much you want that to be true. Your sin is the same as the Pharisees, who imagined their customs should be imposed on everyone.

The Bible is clear that God wants us to love Him and our neighbors. That is the Law.

The Ten Commandments are merely expositions of that Law, telling us how to love God and our neighbor.

But not even they include any prohibition on how the bodies of the dead must be addressed.

There have always been more poor than rich, and the poor cannot afford expensive mausoleums and custom caskets. And only a heartless monster would say to a widow something along the lines of 'God requires you to spend money you don't have to bury your husband in an expensive and elaborate funeral, because that is our tradition.'

In many parts of Asia people are cremated for cost and to prevent potential contamination, as well as making the best use of limited land. That include Christians.

Do you seriously imagine that the people burned in Nazi ovens would be denied Heaven simply because their bodies were burned? Why do you pretend that burial in an expensive crypt has any merit in God's eyes?

No one is saying take part in 'pagan rituals'. But Jesus knows His own, apparently far better than you do, mister.

Your words come from sin and pride, not the Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 1:20-21 KJV
[20] knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. [21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Realitybites said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Jesus warned against needless stumbling blocks, and clearly told His disciples that He would be clear on important things

There is no Scripture against cremation, only your personal bigotry. If a person follows Christ, that is ALL that matters.

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Again, it's not my "personal bigotry". It's 2000 years of Christian practice. If that's something you wish to overturn, it is up to you to provide the scriptural evidence to do so.

"If a person follows Christ, that is all that matters." Well, it has been the position of the Christian faith that a person who ends his or her life by voluntarily participating in a pagan funeral ritual is not. Sort of like someone who commits suicide - self murder without the opportunity to repent.

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Orthodox christians - "Following pagan rituals is not following Christ.... now excuse me, I have to go bow down and pray to statues and images, and sing hymns to our Queen Mother in which I credit her for my salvation."

Psalm 12:6-8 KJV
[6] The words of the LORD are pure words: As silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. [7] Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, Thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. [8] The wicked walk on every side, When the vilest men are exalted.

Oldbear83 said:

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That's not how it works. You cannot say 'this way unless Scripture gives you another choice', unless that is what Scripture commands.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say how we must dispose of our bodies. Therefore it is evil to put your opinion as God's command.

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I just pointed out scriptural instances where burning dead bodies were pagan practices and fell under judgement.

Quote:

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Tradition does not have God's stamp upon it, no matter how much you want that to be true. Your sin is the same as the Pharisees, who imagined their customs should be imposed on everyone.

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If you presume to come along 2000 years after the fact and change the way that Chrisitanity has always done things, the burden of proof falls upon you. You have yet to cite a specific Bible verse that contradicts the two millenium old Christian practice of burial.

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In many parts of Asia people are cremated for cost and to prevent potential contamination, as well as making the best use of limited land.

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The overwhelming majority of whom are pagans, following a pagan practice.

Quote:

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Do you seriously imagine that the people burned in Nazi ovens would be denied Heaven simply because their bodies were burned?

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Of course not. But again, this is the distinction between an accidental death or imposed martyrdom vs a voluntary choice. There are other places with scarce land, for example, Mt. Athos. And yet the Chrisitians there do not practice cremation.

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Why do you pretend that burial in an expensive crypt has any merit in God's eyes?

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John 5:28-29
"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forththose who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Quote:

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No one is saying take part in 'pagan rituals'. But Jesus knows His own, apparently far better than you do, mister.

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By definition, voluntary cremation is a pagan ritual.

RealityBItes: "I just pointed out scriptural instances where burning dead bodies were pagan practices and fell under judgement."

No you did not. Note for example in Amos 2 that we are talking about not just burning, but 'burning the bones of Edom's king'.

This matters, because what a king does, and what is done to a king matters. Consider how Saul first offended the Lord. In 1 Samuel 13:8-14, we see that when his men began to scatter, Saul took it upon himself to offer up the burnt offering himself. In verse 14, Samuel rebukes Saul, saying "But now your kingdom will not endure; the Lord has sought out a man after his own heart and appointed him ruler of his people, because you have not kept the Lord's command."

No one says that Saul could not offer burnt offerings to the Lord, but the manner in which he did so at Gilgal offended the Lord, because Saul represented Israel as king, and so his actions defied, however unintentionally, the Lord's command regarding the role of the priests.

The same thing applies here. Nowhere in Scripture is cremation specifically forbidden. What is forbidden is to defy the Lord, and to treat a king anointed by the Lord as if he were common.

As to your other verse, what Joshua 7:15 says is this: "Whoever is caught with the devoted things shall be destroyed by fire, along with all that belongs to him. He has violated the covenant of the Lord and has done an outrageous thing in Israel"

That verse simply says that blasphemy of keeping for yourself the things that are committed to the Lord brings a terrible end. The family of Achan were destroyed by burning, because that was the specific thing that was to be done to the property promised to the Lord which they stole. A matter of the punishment being decided by the crime, not a condemnation of cremation.

You have taken two citations out of context to make an argument never actually found in Scripture.

RealityBItes: "If you presume to come along 2000 years after the fact and change the way that Chrisitanity has always done things, the burden of proof falls upon you. You have yet to cite a specific Bible verse that contradicts the two millenium old Christian practice of burial."

You are just repeating the false premise again. Where Scripture is concerned, it's simple. What God specifically says to do in Scripture, we must do. What God specifically forbids in Scripture, we may not do.
If God is silent on a matter, it is evil for Man to put his words in God's place.

There is no place in the entirety of the Bible where we are given specific instructions on how a body must be disposed of after death. And while you are correct that Joseph of Arimathea arranged for a tomb for Christ, this is fitting because Christ is King. You never noticed that we never hear about what happened to the body of the thief on the cross to whom Jesus promised Paradise. We never hear what happened to the body of John the Baptist, or for that matter Peter or Paul after their deaths.

Shoot, consider the question of what happened to Moses' body.

But in short, Jesus answered succinctly in Matthew 8:22 and Luke 9:60. Obsessing on funeral particulars misses the message.


RealityBItes: "The overwhelming majority of whom are pagans, following a pagan practice."

Thanks for demonstrating you don't know any Asians personally. I can tell you that wealthy Buddhists bury their family as often as rich Americans do. Because the rich love to see their names on marble headstones and expensive mausoleums, and that has nothing to do with Christ.

The poor, and this includes Christians in China and other Asian countries, choose cremation because that is what they can afford. I suppose a Baptist minister presiding of a Christian funeral does not count unless they spend money they don't have just to impress Pharisaical critics such as yourself.

RealityBItes: "this is the distinction between an accidental death or imposed martyrdom vs a voluntary choice. There are other places with scarce land, for example, Mt. Athos. And yet the Chrisitians there do not practice cremation."

Quite the cherry pick. Yet still there is not a single verse to support your arrogance.



RealityBItes: "By definition, voluntary cremation is a pagan ritual."

A vicious lie from you.

A pagan ritual by definition is a ritual intended to serve a pagan idol. Praying to the Father and following Christ all your life is not canceled by some Pharisee demanding things not in Scripture.

John 5:29 applies to you very much, sir. There is not one verse to support your claims, yet you imagine you can add to God's word just to serve your pride.

Well it is clear that you've made up your mind on this, so best wishes to you.

Perhaps other readers will see clearly enough to make appropriate final arrangements for themselves, so that on that final day they won't be counting on the mercy of Jesus to reconstitute their glorified bodies from ashes to ashes.

As for me, I'll follow in Christ's footsteps and my body will be interred waiting for the great and glorious day of his appearing.

I follow Christ. I hope one day you will, also.

Oldbear83 said:

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A pagan ritual by definition is a ritual intended to serve a pagan idol.

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Would you mind explaining that to BusyTarpDuster?

TIA

Sam Lowry said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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A pagan ritual by definition is a ritual intended to serve a pagan idol.

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Would you mind explaining that to BusyTarpDuster?

TIA

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Hello Sam,

I try to take my fights one at a time. I have serious differences with RealityBites, but aside from him presuming Asians are somehow not real Christians, we can at least trade posts amicably.

BTD seems to take my existence as provocation, so I am not sure I can say anything to him that would result in a polite discussion.

By the way, here is a scorecard on cremation viz a viz Christianity:

Roman Catholicism:

" Because of sanitation concerns in some areas, waning grave plots at cemeteries, and the higher costs of traditional burials, the Church relaxed her discipline in 1963, provided that neither the deceased nor their loved ones chose cremation to rail against the resurrection, as did the Roman pagans of millennia past"

"The Church raises no doctrinal objections to this practice, since cremation of the deceased's body does not affect his or her soul, nor does it prevent God, in his omnipotence, from raising up the deceased body to new life. Thus cremation, in and of itself, objectively negates neither the Christian doctrine of the soul's immortality nor that of the resurrection of the body. . . . Cremation is not prohibited, "unless it was chosen for reasons contrary to Christian doctrine."

https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2016/10/25/161025c.html
The Church's Cremation Change | Catholic Answers Magazine

Protestantism:

"The consensus among most Christian traditionsincluding evangelicalsis that because the Bible does not directly forbid cremation, it is not a sin. As Timothy George says, "While the weight of Christian tradition clearly favors burial, the Bible nowhere explicitly condemns cremation."

"However, there is a divide about whether it is prudent and acceptable for Christians to choose cremation. John MacArthur, for example, has said, "the state of what remains of the old body is unimportant" and that we need not focus on "how to dispose of our earthly bodies."

"Obviously any buried body will eventually decompose (Eccles. 12:7)," MacArthur adds, "So cremation isn't a strange or wrong practiceit merely accelerates the natural process of oxidation."

The FAQs: What Christians Should Know About Cremation

Latter-Day-Saints:

"Leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) have said that cremation is "not encouraged"; however the church provides instructions for properly dressing the deceased prior to cremation.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation_in_Christianity#cite_note-18][18][/url] In the past, Apostle Bruce R. McConkie[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation_in_Christianity#cite_note-19][19][/url] wrote that "only under the most extraordinary and unusual circumstances" would cremation be consistent with LDS teachings.

"The LDS position on cremation was clarified in a 1991 issue of the LDS Church's Ensign Magazine, "Where there is no overriding reason to cremate, burial is still the preferred method of handling our dead. In the end, however, we should remember that the resurrection will take place by the power of God, who created the heavens and the earth. Ultimately, whether a person's body was buried at sea, destroyed in combat or an accident, intentionally cremated or buried in a grave, the person will be resurrected"

[ol]
Source: Church Handbook of Instructions, Book 1 (2006). The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, pp. 81, 18384.Source: McConkie, Bruce R. Mormon Doctrine, A Compendium of the Gospel, 1958Source: https://www.neptunesociety.com/cremation-information-articles/the-mormon-church-and-cremation[/ol]

Church of England and Episcopal:

"The ashes of a cremated body should be reverently disposed of by a minister in a churchyard or other burial ground in ... or on an area of land designated by the bishop for the purpose ... or at sea. The ordinary position therefore is that ashes are to be buried. They may only be scattered if the bishop has designated land for the purpose of the disposal of cremated remains on that land."

https://scattering-ashes.co.uk/different-cultures/cremation-ashes-church-of-englands-stance/

"In the American Episcopal Church, cremation has become accepted so much so that many parishes have built columbaria into their churches, chapels and gardens."

https://www.episcopalchurch.org/glossary/cremation/
https://digital.library.txstate.edu/bitstream/handle/10877/4361/Practitioner%27s%20Guide%20to%20Culturally%20Sensitive%20Practice%20for%20Death%20and%20Dying.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
https://www.ministries.cogbf.org/hp_wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Cremation-Review-1.pdf

Modern Pharisees:

Strongly opposed to cremation.

https://sicem365.com/forums/7/topics/123613/replies/4466607
https://sicem365.com/forums/7/topics/123613/replies/4472772
https://sicem365.com/forums/7/topics/123613/replies/4475020

Oldbear83 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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A pagan ritual by definition is a ritual intended to serve a pagan idol.

---

Would you mind explaining that to BusyTarpDuster?

TIA

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Hello Sam,

I try to take my fights one at a time. I have serious differences with RealityBites, but aside from him presuming Asians are somehow not real Christians, we can at least trade posts amicably.

BTD seems to take my existence as provocation, so I am not sure I can say anything to him that would result in a polite discussion.

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If you don't want to be seen as a provocation, maybe stop provoking.

Sam Lowry said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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A pagan ritual by definition is a ritual intended to serve a pagan idol.

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Would you mind explaining that to BusyTarpDuster?

TIA

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What do you think needs explaining to me? Your track record would indicate it'd be the other way around.

I'm still waiting for the explanation how you can reject sola scriptura when it's been proven that your church authorities are NOT infallible.

Everything Oldbear cites about Roman Catholicism and Protestantism is correct. It is also part of a sweeping "modernization" of Christianity into an emotionally driven form of moralistic therapeutic deism that occurred in the 20th century and has led to discarding much of the faith once delivered to the saints.

Cremation, women pastors, gay marriage, abortion, IVF, contraception, ignoring the scriptural mandates for head coverings … it is all a package deal. Now while some institutions have accepted parts of the package deal (so far) and others the whole thing its root is the same. When you accept some of it, you eventually get all of it.

When you are reduced to citing the practices of the Episcopal/Anglican "church" of the 21st century (which incrementally accepted the whole package starting with Lambeth) you know you have lost the argument.

It is also interesting that the Mormon church - a non-Christian organization that teaches that Jesus was a created being, the brother of Lucifer, and that its adherents can become gods of their own planet - are included in that list of Christian churches. It is also interesting that of all the organizations on that list, they come closest to giving voice to the historic Christian position on the matter (aside from Eastern Orthodoxy, Christ's original church, which was not included in that list).