BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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I'm not twisting anything, I'm telling exactly what happened. A POPE, bishops, and priests offered less time in purgatory in exchange for money. Yet you believe in the infallibility of your magisterium made up of popes, bishops, and priests.

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Biblical foundation I Corinthians 3:11-15
"For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubbleeach man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

The DAY here is our judgment day. The fire that test our works is the purifying agent or purgatory. The good works will receive a reward (Treasury of Merit.) Our bad works, will be burned up. As I mentioned, this CANNOT happen in hell, because "he himself will be saved". It can't happen in heaven. It HAS to happen somewhere.

I have other supporting texts that we can discuss later like Matthew 12:32 and 5:24-25.

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This verse is not talking about purgatory. It's their works that are being tested by fire, not they themselves. It's to determine their reward, not to clean them to get into heaven.

Question: what is the "reward" that the verse says one gets after the test by fire? Because if you're saying this verse is about purgatory, then that "reward" must be heaven. But it's not heaven, because the other person got no reward, but they still got into heaven. So the "reward" isn't heaven. That's why this verse can't be about purgatory.

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Sadly, you misunderstand this verse as well. The "reward" is salvation of the individual - which leads to heaven. The person whose works are burned up, "will be saved".

The reword is also the fact that they didn't have to "suffer lose." Both people are saved. The later went thru purgatory to be cleansed.

It's very straightforward in the passage.

I'm guessing your church doesn't cover this verse in 1 Cor.

I agree with BTD's point about Christ as it regards the Catholic Church attempting to place Mary in a role that I believe would greatly offend her.

As is often the case with BTD, his often acidic and toxic tone and language causes him to lose many who might otherwise give the content of his comments true consideration. I don't believe that such opinionated remarks allow for someone with an open mind to give his views the consideration that they deserve. For, although I agree with his point, I almost as a reflex want blow off his point and look for something to fight back, rather than calmly reviewing his often valid points. I get the impression that he doesn't realize just how much he weakens his arguments. It's almost like he has his fists up daring anyone who disagrees to be ready for a fight.

Coke Bear said:

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He doesn't say all religions lead to God. He said all religions are paths to God.

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I love this statement. I have always said the Kingdom of Heaven is like a city with many highways leading into its center. It doesn't matter which highway you take as long as you allow Jesus to lead you there.

Pretty much in agreement with that .

What a mess. You got one guy acting as if a barfight is how you win over people to Christ, and another guy who keeps saying worshipping Mary is how you serve Christ, even as he spends half his time pretending he isn't selling that lie.

Yikes.

Oldbear83 said:

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What a mess. You got one guy acting as if a barfight is how you win over people to Christ, and another guy who keeps saying worshipping Mary is how you serve Christ, even as he spends half his time pretending he isn't selling that lie.

Yikes.

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Telling people the truth is a "barfight"??

What YOU'RE doing is discouraging people to just tell the flat out truth to people who need to hear it. You included.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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What a mess. You got one guy acting as if a barfight is how you win over people to Christ, and another guy who keeps saying worshipping Mary is how you serve Christ, even as he spends half his time pretending he isn't selling that lie.

Yikes.

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Telling people the truth is a "barfight"??

What YOU'RE doing is discouraging people to just tell the flat out truth to people who need to hear it. You included.

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Proves my point, that.

BUDOS said:

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I agree with BTD's point about Christ as it regards the Catholic Church attempting to place Mary in a role that I believe would greatly offend her.

As is often the case with BTD, his often acidic and toxic tone and language causes him to lose many who might otherwise give the content of his comments true consideration. I don't believe that such opinionated remarks allow for someone with an open mind to give his views the consideration that they deserve. For, although I agree with his point, I almost as a reflex want blow off his point and look for something to fight back, rather than calmly reviewing his often valid points. I get the impression that he doesn't realize just how much he weakens his arguments. It's almost like he has his fists up daring anyone who disagrees to be ready for a fight.

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I'm just telling the truth, and if it requires me to be pointed, it's justified. Telling the truth to people who need it often leads them to the same perception you have. It's why they hated the prophets, the apostles, and even Jesus himself. It's why they killed them. "for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict....You will be hated by all for my name's sake."

Yogi said:

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Coke Bear said:

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He doesn't say all religions lead to God. He said all religions are paths to God.

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I love this statement. I have always said the Kingdom of Heaven is like a city with many highways leading into its center. It doesn't matter which highway you take as long as you allow Jesus to lead you there.

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But how are all religions "allowing Jesus to take them there" when those religions don't believe in Jesus?

The Shroud Of Turin, New Findings

https://www.theepochtimes.com/bright/new-questions-emerge-around-the-authenticity-of-the-shroud-of-turin-5793926?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=epochtimes&fbclid=IwY2xjawIApHdleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHaDGlqmzz4Sl3L6Sr0DMXFfF8JND5ymeiN7eLSCjmUMf5-kXbyWzDsIT7w_aem_-3dfbeaBGLRrQKkSwrju7w

Oldbear83 said:

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What a mess. You got one guy acting as if a barfight is how you win over people to Christ, and another guy who keeps saying worshipping Mary is how you serve Christ, even as he spends half his time pretending he isn't selling that lie.

Yikes.

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Who here is saying that worshiping Mary is serving Christ?

Coke Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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What a mess. You got one guy acting as if a barfight is how you win over people to Christ, and another guy who keeps saying worshipping Mary is how you serve Christ, even as he spends half his time pretending he isn't selling that lie.

Yikes.

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Who here is saying that worshiping Mary is serving Christ?

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You and BTD seem to have this much in common, Coke Bear:

You deny the obvious when you don't like it.

You also seem to think that stating an opinion as fact somehow means you can claim "victory" - Pride is much more the motive for most of the posts in the last month than focus on Christ.

Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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What a mess. You got one guy acting as if a barfight is how you win over people to Christ, and another guy who keeps saying worshipping Mary is how you serve Christ, even as he spends half his time pretending he isn't selling that lie.

Yikes.

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Who here is saying that worshiping Mary is serving Christ?

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You and BTD seem to have this much in common, Coke Bear:

You deny the obvious when you don't like it.

You also seem to think that stating an opinion as fact somehow means you can claim "victory" - Pride is much more the motive for most of the posts in the last month than focus on Christ.

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I (think) I understand your overall point, but I would appreciate you clarifying the commit about "worshiping" Mary.

Are you saying that BTD claims that Catholics worship Mary? Which I agree that he says that.
OR are you saying that Catholics worship Mary? If so, please cite a paragraph in the Catechism that says that we should or do worship Mary.

Here is a link to the CCC provided St. Charles Borromeo in Picayune, Mississippi. You can search electronically (at the bottom of the page) and post it back here.

I would say my position is very close to that of Karl Barth.

Hope that helps.

Oldbear83 said:

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I would say my position is very close to that of Karl Barth.

Hope that helps.

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I've never heard of Karl Barth.

So no, it does not help.

It's it that hard to answer the question directly?

You couldn't Google Karl Barth?

Seriously, I am trying to clarify and you are channeling BTD but from the Team Rome perspective.

Oldbear83 said:

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You couldn't Google Karl Barth?

Seriously, I am trying to clarify and you are channeling BTD but from the Team Rome perspective.

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Oh I Googled him, but I don't understand why you can't make your point without cryptic comments.

I've never heard of him, his writings, or his reputation. I guess you feel that he's important. Good for you.

I don't want to read an entire Wiki page to try to figure out your views. Just own them in print.

Having said that, I'll assume that you mean that Catholic's "worship Mary."

Like I said, back that up with an official Catholic teaching that says we should and do.

You are trying your best to keep the tone civil; (which I certainly appreciate) however, making a false claim about Catholicism (when I've demonstrated many times is false) doesn't seem to civil and ecumenical.

For instance, CCC 971:

All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. ... This very special devotion ... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.[url=https://www.catholiccrossreference.online/catechism/#!/search/971/fn/971:517][/url]

"Latria" is the term used to describe the adoration and worship due to God alone. This is a supreme form of reverence and is not to be given to any other bein.
"Dulia" refers to the veneration given to saints.
"Hyperdulia" is a special veneration given to the Virgin Mary, which is greater than dulia but fundamentally different from latria.


At least BTD will present writings from the Church to make his point. Do the same, if you are going to make a claim.

Oldbear83 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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What a mess. You got one guy acting as if a barfight is how you win over people to Christ, and another guy who keeps saying worshipping Mary is how you serve Christ, even as he spends half his time pretending he isn't selling that lie.

Yikes.

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Who here is saying that worshiping Mary is serving Christ?

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You and BTD seem to have this much in common, Coke Bear:

You deny the obvious when you don't like it.

You also seem to think that stating an opinion as fact somehow means you can claim "victory" - Pride is much more the motive for most of the posts in the last month than focus on Christ.

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What is the "obvious" thing that I don't like and deny?

Can you give a clear answer instead of your usual cryptic "read my mind" answer?

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Catholicism teaches that if one wears the scapular at their death, that Mary will release them from "purgatory" the Saturday after their death. There is a temporal dimension to "purgatory" in Catholic teaching, and it doesn't matter how you understand it, indulgences lead to "less" of it.

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First, Catholicism doesn't teach that at all. Scapulars are private devotions. The faithful are not bound to accept or honor it.

Which scapular? The Brown, Red, Black, Blue or any specific of the 18 different scapulars? I'm not sure what scapular that you are referring to.

Once again, you are twisting what you don't understand. I feel sorry for you.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Of course I know the magisterium is only the pope and bishops. I was just making the point in the simplest way - the pope and bishops are fallible. The Catholic argument that they are infallible "under certain conditions" makes the whole idea of infallibility useless. Because when they ARE wrong, you can just say that it didn't count. A child can see through this ridiculous reasoning.

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A child can understand that NOT everything the Church does is going to be perfect. It's divine institution ran by fallible humans. The Holy Spirit only protect her when she speaks dogmatically and definitionally (and expressed so) on matters of faith and morals.

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You can deny it all you want; throughout church history the Roman Catholic Church has always talked about purgatory in a temporal sense. Even if you deny this, how is that even relevant? The issue that the suffering in purgatory can be made less in some sense by obtaining merit from another departed person still remains. It's still completely unsupported biblically, and just sounds completely made up.

The Roman Catholic Church is clearly not protected from error. As I've repeatedly brought up, their councils have anathematized previous councils. They've introduced anathemas against that which was the prevailing, universal belief of the early church, like which books were in canon and the rejection of icon veneration. The most obvious and egregious example is the dogmas of Mary - they are completely unbiblical, are NOT based on the teachings of the original apostles and the early church, and are completely idolatrous and heretical. The psalms of Mary by St. Bonaventure is a CLEAR form of idolatry, heresy, and worship of Mary, and those psalms were officially declared by the RCC to be without error. It's obvious to everyone who read them to be blatant heresy and idolatry. Same with the Fatima message and The Glories of Mary. Even those here in this thread who can't stand me have admitted as much, even when it pains them to agree with me. That's how obvious it is.

You can't admit it, because you're in a cult mindset. Your belief that the RCC is protected from error is a circular form of reasoning. Whatever teaching they produce, you followers believe to be without error, because the Church tells you they don't teach errors. There's only one way out of this cultish mindset - decide for yourself that you will seek what is TRUE, instead of what preserves the status quo of Roman Catholicism. What you're doing - with ALL your replies to me - is just a defense mechanism. Please - WAKE UP.

Did anyone look at the Shroud Of Turin Article? Thoughts?

Tomorrow is Sunday. Find a good Bible believing Church and attend. One that serves by grace through faith alone.

Purgatory is a really new section 8 development.

It was dogmatized by the Roman Catholic Church in the mid 1500s at the Council of Trent with this declaration:

""Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful"

The church of the first millenium *does not* teach that there is such a thing as purgatory.

The internet has it made it very easy to investigate Church history. I doubt that organizations like the Roman Catholic Church, the Mormon Church, or Landmarkism that rely on an ignorance of history for their origin stories will survive this democratization of information long term. The sorts of discussions we have in these threads and the sources we provide would have been impossible a short 40 years ago outside of a Seminary and its library.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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The Shroud Of Turin, New Findings

https://www.theepochtimes.com/bright/new-questions-emerge-around-the-authenticity-of-the-shroud-of-turin-5793926?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=epochtimes&fbclid=IwY2xjawIApHdleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHaDGlqmzz4Sl3L6Sr0DMXFfF8JND5ymeiN7eLSCjmUMf5-kXbyWzDsIT7w_aem_-3dfbeaBGLRrQKkSwrju7w

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I read it. It's pretty interesting. If you think that's interesting, read the book "The Face of God" by Paul Badde. While such things aren't the foundation of our faith, they strengthen it.



You might find this interesting as well:

About Cold Plasma Physics and The Miracle of Easter

I have to presume that the descent of the Holy FIre occurred that first Pascha morning as well and is in some way responsible for both these images.

I am not sure what you mean by the decent of the Holy Fire, but I certainly believe that when Christ Resurrected, a huge amount of radiation was emitted and caused the image. Possibly X Rays or something. They say that the image is like an XRay image. It shows bones and such.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Did anyone look at the Shroud Of Turin Article? Thoughts?

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I have not looked at the article yet. But I will say this about the Shroud: I don't think you guys should believe it. I don't think it's good to commit to a facial image of Jesus in your mind when you think of him. He doesn't look like he did while he was on earth anymore, his appearance has changed. But most importantly, this could be how the Devil tricks many people into believing a false Jesus or the Antichrist when the end times comes - by taking on the exact same appearance as what's on the Shroud. Who knows, maybe the Shroud is the Devil's doing for this very purpose? People who are too religiously dogmatic about the Shroud may fall for it. Be skeptical, very skeptical. Satan is very crafty.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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I am not sure what you mean by the decent of the Holy Fire, but I certainly believe that when Christ Resurrected, a huge amount of radiation was emitted and caused the image. Possibly X Rays or something. They say that the image is like an XRay image. It shows bones and such.

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Pretty much that. The veil is actually more interesting, almost a hologram on mussel silk dated to the time and region of Christ's life. No technology existed to create such a thing. I strongly suspect that this artifact is the Napkin mentioned in the Gospel of John, ch 20, vs 7...taken to Edessa by Thomas and displayed there for many years before being retrieved by Constantinople and carried by Byzantine Armies called the Mandylion at that time. You see a modern depiction of this in the flag flown by the Donbass Republic and segments of the Russian military.



After that, the history gets murkier, but it ends up in the Vatican and eventually in Manopello. I suspect - though I have no concrete proof - that the vehicle for its transport west was the sack of Constantinople by the crusaders of the fourth crusade, and that it was smuggled out of Rome when it was subsequently sacked (though the residents of Manopello will tell you an angel brought it to them).

...and both the shroud and veil are archeological questions, not theological ones. That is, if authentic, they bolster the faith. If not, they have no effect.

Well personally, I do believe it is the burial cloth of Christ. It makes the most sense for sure.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Did anyone look at the Shroud Of Turin Article? Thoughts?

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I have not looked at the article yet. But I will say this about the Shroud: I don't think you guys should believe it. I don't think it's good to commit to a facial image of Jesus in your mind when you think of him. He doesn't look like he did while he was on earth anymore, his appearance has changed. But most importantly, this could be how the Devil tricks many people into believing a false Jesus or the Antichrist when the end times comes - by taking on the exact same appearance as what's on the Shroud. Who knows, maybe the Shroud is the Devil's doing for this very purpose? People who are too religiously dogmatic about the Shroud may fall for it. Be skeptical, very skeptical. Satan is very crafty.

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First of all I'm not 100% sure but I see no reason to have a problem with leaving that it is probably his burial cloth. Secondly, it's not just his head it is his entire body front and back. I see no reason why the devil would want to trick people into believing that Jesus rose from the dead.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Did anyone look at the Shroud Of Turin Article? Thoughts?

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I have not looked at the article yet. But I will say this about the Shroud: I don't think you guys should believe it. I don't think it's good to commit to a facial image of Jesus in your mind when you think of him. He doesn't look like he did while he was on earth anymore, his appearance has changed. But most importantly, this could be how the Devil tricks many people into believing a false Jesus or the Antichrist when the end times comes - by taking on the exact same appearance as what's on the Shroud. Who knows, maybe the Shroud is the Devil's doing for this very purpose? People who are too religiously dogmatic about the Shroud may fall for it. Be skeptical, very skeptical. Satan is very crafty.

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First of all I'm not 100% sure but I see no reason to have a problem with leaving that it is probably his burial cloth. Secondly, it's not just his head it is his entire body front and back. I see no reason why the devil would want to trick people into believing that Jesus rose from the dead.

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The Devil would trick people into believing that Jesus rose from the dead, in order to impersonate him and lead people away from him. The Devil wouldn't mind that people believe Jesus rose from the dead - so as long as you think the risen Jesus is him. Jesus warned that false christs will appear, to try to deceive even Christians (Matthew 24:24)