Have you read the Talmud?

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Titus and Titus
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I stumbled upon something recently that I thought was extremely interesting and I can't believe I didn't learn it in any of my religious courses. I've read the Talmud before, found it in the college library but I found this recently- The Disputation of Paris.

The Disputation of Paris (Hebrew: , romanized: Mishpat Pariz; French: disputation de Paris), also known as the Trial of the Talmud (French: procs du Talmud), took place in 1240 at the court of King Louis IX of France. It followed the work of Nicholas Donin, a Jewish convert to Christianity who translated the Talmud and pressed 35 charges against it to Pope Gregory IX by quoting a series of allegedly blasphemous passages about Jesus, Mary, or Christianity.[1] Four rabbis defended the Talmud against Donin's accusations.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputation_of_Paris

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud
ABC BEAR
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I've never perused the Talmud, but I have read everything written by Mickey Spillane.
Redbrickbear
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Titus and Titus said:

I stumbled upon something recently that I thought was extremely interesting and I can't believe I didn't learn it in any of my religious courses. I've read the Talmud before, found it in the college library but I found this recently- The Disputation of Paris.

The Disputation of Paris (Hebrew: , romanized: Mishpat Pariz; French: disputation de Paris), also known as the Trial of the Talmud (French: procs du Talmud), took place in 1240 at the court of King Louis IX of France. It followed the work of Nicholas Donin, a Jewish convert to Christianity who translated the Talmud and pressed 35 charges against it to Pope Gregory IX by quoting a series of allegedly blasphemous passages about Jesus, Mary, or Christianity.[1] Four rabbis defended the Talmud against Donin's accusations.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputation_of_Paris
The Talmud and Mishnah are large

[The core component of the Talmud is a collection of Aramaic texts referred as gemara, which means "scholarship". The Hebrew word, talmud, incidentally, means the same thing. Those texts are structured as a running commentary on a body of Hebrew literature, included in the Talmud, which is called mishna: "that which is repeated/studied". The Mishnah is large. It is very large.

Traditionally divided into sixty texts called "tractates"11 (masekhtot, in Hebrew), they are arranged in six broad divisions called "orders" (sedarim). Together, they cover every single piece of legislation mentioned within the Torah, plus several others that were of later derivation.]


But there a some seriously racist and vile things in the Talmud and the Mishnah.

I think most Christians (including professors at Baylor) are not aware of this or just don't want to discuss it for fear of being labeled "anti-Semitic".

But these is certainly some stuff in there that deserve criticism.


[The mitzvah of cherem, i.e., the requirement to slaughter the entire population of Canaanites and Amalekites, is a clear example of such a problem (Deut 7:2, 20:16-18, 1Sam 15). Another is capital punishment for religious infractions (Exod 31:14, Num 15:35), including the stoning to death of a young maiden at the door of her father's house for the crime of premarital relations (Deut 22:21).[2]

We find similarly problematic laws in rabbinic tradition as well, such as the prohibition to ever free one's gentile slave (b. Berachot 47b) or the mitzvah to kill heretics by pushing them down a well, codified by Maimonides (Mishneh Torah, "Laws of Murder and Protection of Life," 4:10):]

The below article attempts to discuss the issue.

https://www.thetorah.com/article/relating-truthfully-to-morally-problematic-torah-texts

[Insults Against Mary, Sanhedrin 106a, says Jesus' mother was a *****: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbat 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men. "Jesus was a ******* born of adultery." (Yebamoth 49b, p.324). "Mary was a *****: Jesus (Balaam) was an evil man." (Sanhedrin 106a &b, p.725). "Jesus was a magician and a fool. Mary was an adulteress". (Shabbath 104b, p.504).




Oldbear83
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ABC BEAR said:

I've never perused the Talmud, but I have read everything written by Mickey Spillane.
Kosher Crime Noir
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KaiBear
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Titus and Titus said:

I stumbled upon something recently that I thought was extremely interesting and I can't believe I didn't learn it in any of my religious courses. I've read the Talmud before, found it in the college library but I found this recently- The Disputation of Paris.

The Disputation of Paris (Hebrew: , romanized: Mishpat Pariz; French: disputation de Paris), also known as the Trial of the Talmud (French: procs du Talmud), took place in 1240 at the court of King Louis IX of France. It followed the work of Nicholas Donin, a Jewish convert to Christianity who translated the Talmud and pressed 35 charges against it to Pope Gregory IX by quoting a series of allegedly blasphemous passages about Jesus, Mary, or Christianity.[1] Four rabbis defended the Talmud against Donin's accusations.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputation_of_Paris
Very intersting.


Notable jewish slanders against Jesus and the Christian Faith.


Explains why some Christian kingdoms expelled Jews.


Martin Luther took it much farther. In one famous manuscript he wondered if it was a sin NOT to kill Jews.
Redbrickbear
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This thread seems to show the worst of the rabbinical rulings/teachings in the Talmud














Titus and Titus
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I don't know whether to be mad or embarrassed that my Baylor professors didn't teach me this.

Either way- Johh 7:13 is still in full effect.
Limited IQ Redneck in PU
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Titus and Titus said:

I don't know whether to be mad or embarrassed that my Baylor professors didn't teach me this.

Either way- Johh 7:13 is still in full effect.


Baylor religion professors teach Baptist old and new testament classes.why would you be angry they didnt throw in some Jewish documents? Do you blame them for not teaching Buddhism top?
whiterock
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Christianity is repeatedly critiqued for similar textual outrages, while the koran is spared for similar and worse.

The difference between the Judeo-Christian tradition and the islamic world is that the latter teaches the koran as literal law, while the former does not and has not taught their religious texts as dogmatic law for a goodly part of a millennia.

There is a reason there is no discernable Jewish or Christian religious terrorist movement in the world. To the extent that religiously inspired violence occurs, it is the proverbial deranged individual. Same cannot be said for islam.
Titus and Titus
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Judaism's main text has our lord and savior boiling in excrement. I think it's worth noting. Not even islam has such abominable imagery in their texts.

In Gittin 56b and 57a,[83] a story is told in which Onkelos summons up the spirit of "Yeshu the Nazarene", who had "sought to harm Israel". Yeshu describes his punishment in the afterlife as boiling in excrement


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud
Redbrickbear
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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

Titus and Titus said:

I don't know whether to be mad or embarrassed that my Baylor professors didn't teach me this.

Either way- Johh 7:13 is still in full effect.


Baylor religion professors teach Baptist old and new testament classes.why would you be angry they didnt throw in some Jewish documents? Do you blame them for not teaching Buddhism top?
Baylor religion professors teach plenty of classes where you could have a discussion about the Talmud and it would be relevant.

See classes offered: https://catalog.baylor.edu/undergraduate/courses-instruction/rel/

[REL 3305 Interpreting the Old Testament (3)

REL 3309 Advanced Biblical Hebrew I

REL 3310 Advanced Biblical Hebrew II (3)

REL 3331 Topics in Historical Studies

REL 3345 World Religions

REL 4348 Modern Judaism

REL 4349 The World's Religions and Violence]


In fact I only see one specific Baptist class: REL 4335 Baptist Life and Thought

If they have time to teach: REL 3393 Gender, Feminism and Theology, REL 3348 Hitler and the Holocaust, REL 3325 Women and Gender in the Old Testament , REL 4389 Disability Ethics, REL 4397 Race, Racism, and Religion in America, .....then I assume they could squeeze in some Talmudic discussion.

Sam Lowry
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There's a huge amount of misinformation about the Talmud, most of it going back centuries. It's unlikely that these passages even refer to the Jesus of the New Testament.
william
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I can't read.

- C. Gardener

BID.
arbyscoin - the only crypto you can eat.
Redbrickbear
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Sam Lowry said:

There's a huge amount of misinformation about the Talmud, most of it going back centuries. It's unlikely that these passages even refer to the Jesus of the New Testament.
[The Jerusalem or Palestinian Talmud was completed c. 350, and the Babylonian Talmud (the more complete and authoritative) was written down c. 500, but was further edited for another two centuries. The Talmud served as the basis for all codes of rabbinic law.]

https://www.bl.uk/collection-items/babylonian-talmund#:~:text=The%20Jerusalem%20or%20Palestinian%20Talmud,all%20codes%20of%20rabbinic%20law.

While Rabbinic rulings often discuss aspects of the Old Testament (written thousand of years before the birth of Christ)...the Talmud itself was not compiled until hundreds of years after the Birth of Christ and the Roman occupation of Palestine.

The Rabbis who wrote the Talmud certainly knew who Jesus Christ was and the Christian religion (enemy of theirs)....now they may not always be referring to Jesus Christ every time they mention a man named Jesus.

Since Jesus (Yeshua), was not an un-common name in first-century Galilee.

But the curses toward Mary, and some of the rulings, seem totally related to the Christian religion and attempts to attack it, discredit it, and condemn its teachings.
Titus and Titus
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Sam Lowry said:

There's a huge amount of misinformation about the Talmud, most of it going back centuries. It's unlikely that these passages even refer to the Jesus of the New Testament.


This is the point of the Disputation of Paris that was called by Saint Louis. They had a trial and determined it IS Jesus Christ and Mother Mary that the Talmud refers too.
OsoCoreyell
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Titus and Titus said:

Sam Lowry said:

There's a huge amount of misinformation about the Talmud, most of it going back centuries. It's unlikely that these passages even refer to the Jesus of the New Testament.


This is the point of the Disputation of Paris that was called by Saint Louis. They had a trial and determined it IS Jesus Christ and Mother Mary that the Talmud refers too.
Nothing good happens in St. Louis, especially East St. Louis!
Harrison Bergeron
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Not sure why it is controversial the Talmud might contain anti-Christian commentary.
Polycarp
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Is the Talmud scripture? Authoritative? Commentary?
Titus and Titus
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Polycarp said:

Is the Talmud scripture? Authoritative? Commentary?


The Talmud (/tlmd, -md, tl-/; Hebrew: , romanized: Talm) is the central text of Rabbinic Judaism and the primary source of Jewish religious law (halakha) and Jewish theology.[1][2] Until the advent of modernity, in nearly all Jewish communities, the Talmud was the centerpiece of Jewish cultural life and was foundational to "all Jewish thought and aspirations", serving also as "the guide for the daily life" of Jews.[3]
TWD 1974
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There is quite a bit to unpack here. The Talmud is not a book, it is a library of writings by countless Rabinic scholars written over centuries. To quote Talmudic scholars today, as well as Catholic Scholar John Maier, the Talmud contains no explicit reference to Christianity, Christians, Jesus or Mary or any of the disciples. For many centuries, many (some in furtherance of antisemitism) have taken passages and names out of context. The references to a Yeshu are actually a reference to someone who lived long after Jesus of Nazareth.

As to Martin Luther, his comments late in his life have confounded Christians for centuries. Luther pointed out that Jesus of the NT was born of a Jewish Mother, and his early comments were considered to be conciliatory to Jews, which led a prominent Rabbi to send Luther a very old Hebrew Scroll of the Torah--the Biblical books of Moses. A gift which Luther greatly prized. This gift marks the only known encounter Luther had with Jews. His inexplicable comments later on could not have been based on a reading of the Talmud, as Luther new little or no Hebrew, and had no knowledge of the Aramaic which the Talmud is written in.
One biographer has suggested that the Luther's condemnation of the Jews was written after the tragic death of a favorite daughter. It is also noted from the table talk writings from this time period that Luther was drinking rather heavily. Whatever the case, it is a tragedy that his words could be used centuries later to justify the horrors committed by the Nazis. We are reminded we are all works of clay, capable of good, and evil.
“No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love Him.” 1 Corinthians 2:9
Titus and Titus
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TWD 1974 said:

l the Talmud contains no explicit reference to Christianity, Christians, Jesus or Mary or any of the disciples. For many centuries, many (some in furtherance of antisemitism) have taken passages and names out of context. The references to a Yeshu are actually a reference to someone who lived long after Jesus of Nazareth.


Once again the Disputation of Paris, as well as other Disputations, are proof that the Talmud does reference Jesus Christ and Mother Mary. The Disputation of Paris was called by King Louis IX who would become Saint Louis.
Harrison Bergeron
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TWD 1974 said:

There is quite a bit to unpack here. The Talmud is not a book, it is a library of writings by countless Rabinic scholars written over centuries. To quote Talmudic scholars today, as well as Catholic Scholar John Maier, the Talmud contains no explicit reference to Christianity, Christians, Jesus or Mary or any of the disciples. For many centuries, many (some in furtherance of antisemitism) have taken passages and names out of context. The references to a Yeshu are actually a reference to someone who lived long after Jesus of Nazareth.

As to Martin Luther, his comments late in his life have confounded Christians for centuries. Luther pointed out that Jesus of the NT was born of a Jewish Mother, and his early comments were considered to be conciliatory to Jews, which led a prominent Rabbi to send Luther a very old Hebrew Scroll of the Torah--the Biblical books of Moses. A gift which Luther greatly prized. This gift marks the only known encounter Luther had with Jews. His inexplicable comments later on could not have been based on a reading of the Talmud, as Luther new little or no Hebrew, and had no knowledge of the Aramaic which the Talmud is written in.
One biographer has suggested that the Luther's condemnation of the Jews was written after the tragic death of a favorite daughter. It is also noted from the table talk writings from this time period that Luther was drinking rather heavily. Whatever the case, it is a tragedy that his words could be used centuries later to justify the horrors committed by the Nazis. We are reminded we are all works of clay, capable of good, and evil.
My eyes start to glaze over getting into the Midrash and the Mishna ... I mean it basically is like the Coming to America barber scene with a bunch of old Jews talking about even older stuff!
TWD 1974
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Titus and Titus said:

TWD 1974 said:

l the Talmud contains no explicit reference to Christianity, Christians, Jesus or Mary or any of the disciples. For many centuries, many (some in furtherance of antisemitism) have taken passages and names out of context. The references to a Yeshu are actually a reference to someone who lived long after Jesus of Nazareth.


Once again the Disputation of Paris, as well as other Disputations, are proof that the Talmud does reference Jesus Christ and Mother Mary. The Disputation of Paris was called by King Louis IX who would become Saint Louis.
Neither Louis, nor any of the investigators other than Donin, had read any of the Talmud, as they were completely illiterate of the language of the documents. The 4 Rabbis who spoke in defense stated strenuously that the Talmud did not reference Jesus Christ or Mary or Christians in general. They repeatedly argued the name Yeshu cited by Donin represented someone else, just as there were many Louis in France which were not the King. Current scholarship by people fluent in the Aramaic of the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds support the argument of the 4 Rabbis.
“No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love Him.” 1 Corinthians 2:9
Fre3dombear
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KaiBear said:

Titus and Titus said:

I stumbled upon something recently that I thought was extremely interesting and I can't believe I didn't learn it in any of my religious courses. I've read the Talmud before, found it in the college library but I found this recently- The Disputation of Paris.

The Disputation of Paris (Hebrew: , romanized: Mishpat Pariz; French: disputation de Paris), also known as the Trial of the Talmud (French: procs du Talmud), took place in 1240 at the court of King Louis IX of France. It followed the work of Nicholas Donin, a Jewish convert to Christianity who translated the Talmud and pressed 35 charges against it to Pope Gregory IX by quoting a series of allegedly blasphemous passages about Jesus, Mary, or Christianity.[1] Four rabbis defended the Talmud against Donin's accusations.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputation_of_Paris
Very intersting.


Notable jewish slanders against Jesus and the Christian Faith.


Explains why some Christian kingdoms expelled Jews.


Martin Luther took it much father. In one famous manuscript he wondered if it was a sin NOT to kill Jews.


Sadly Jews cannot go to Heaven it is said, as they don't believe Jesus is the Messiah

But if course, they aren't the only ones.
Redbrickbear
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TWD 1974 said:

Titus and Titus said:

TWD 1974 said:

l the Talmud contains no explicit reference to Christianity, Christians, Jesus or Mary or any of the disciples. For many centuries, many (some in furtherance of antisemitism) have taken passages and names out of context. The references to a Yeshu are actually a reference to someone who lived long after Jesus of Nazareth.


Once again the Disputation of Paris, as well as other Disputations, are proof that the Talmud does reference Jesus Christ and Mother Mary. The Disputation of Paris was called by King Louis IX who would become Saint Louis.
Neither Louis, nor any of the investigators other than Donin, had read any of the Talmud, as they were completely illiterate of the language of the documents. The 4 Rabbis who spoke in defense stated strenuously that the Talmud did not reference Jesus Christ or Mary or Christians in general. They repeatedly argued the name Yeshu cited by Donin represented someone else, just as there were many Louis in France which were not the King. Current scholarship by people fluent in the Aramaic of the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds support the argument of the 4 Rabbis.


Well that settles it.

It's not like Jewish Rabbis would ever lie to the goyim.

Especially not before the famously pious Christian King of France (he was a Crusader King at that) …when fines, punishment, and possible expulsion were on the line.
Oldbear83
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Redbrickbear said:

TWD 1974 said:

Titus and Titus said:

TWD 1974 said:

l the Talmud contains no explicit reference to Christianity, Christians, Jesus or Mary or any of the disciples. For many centuries, many (some in furtherance of antisemitism) have taken passages and names out of context. The references to a Yeshu are actually a reference to someone who lived long after Jesus of Nazareth.


Once again the Disputation of Paris, as well as other Disputations, are proof that the Talmud does reference Jesus Christ and Mother Mary. The Disputation of Paris was called by King Louis IX who would become Saint Louis.
Neither Louis, nor any of the investigators other than Donin, had read any of the Talmud, as they were completely illiterate of the language of the documents. The 4 Rabbis who spoke in defense stated strenuously that the Talmud did not reference Jesus Christ or Mary or Christians in general. They repeatedly argued the name Yeshu cited by Donin represented someone else, just as there were many Louis in France which were not the King. Current scholarship by people fluent in the Aramaic of the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds support the argument of the 4 Rabbis.


Well that settles it.

It's not like Jewish Rabbis would ever lie to the goyim.

Especially not before the famously pious Christian King of France (he was a Crusader King at that) …when fines, punishment, and possible expulsion were on the line.
Well, if the writer did not mean Jesus, who did he mean? You don't get named in the Talmud if you are just some no-name schmuck.

Even Trump's not named in it, although he may think he is.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
whiterock
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Polycarp said:

Is the Talmud scripture? Authoritative? Commentary?
The same way the Old Testament in the Bible is authoritative.

We've got atheists and agnostics constantly attacking Christianity as (insert deplorable term here) over passages in the Old Testament, treating every word as commandment rather than context, principle rather than parable, etc....

People who hate cling to things that justify the hate.
The Jews are neither a problem nor an enemy.
They are the wellspring of our religious and cultural tradition.

Beware the temptation to engage in theology to rationalize one's own sensibilities......
Redbrickbear
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Polycarp said:

Is the Talmud scripture? Authoritative? Commentary?


Good question.

Technically it is rabbinic commentary and rulings on the Torah (the first 5 books of the Hebrew Bible and the rest of the Old Testament)

There seems to be a difference between how reform jews see it and how the conservatives/orthodox/ and ultra-orthodox Hasidic see it……

[Orthodox Jews, the Hebrew Scriptures is a divinely-authored text and therefore every commandment contained therein must be obeyed. The Mishnah and Talmud are considered to have virtually the same status and are called Oral Torah. Reform Jews, however, understand the texts to have been written by human beings -- ]

So the demographically growing parts of Judaism (the orthodox) see it as authoritative and basically on par with scripture….and the demographically declining parts of Judaism (the reform) don't
Polycarp
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Redbrickbear said:

Polycarp said:

Is the Talmud scripture? Authoritative? Commentary?


Good question.

Technically it is rabbinic commentary and rulings on the Torah (the first 5 books of the Hebrew Bible and the rest of the Old Testament)

There seems to be a difference between how reform jews see it and how the conservatives/orthodox/ and ultra-orthodox Hasidic see it……

[Orthodox Jews, the Hebrew Scriptures is a divinely-authored text and therefore every commandment contained therein must be obeyed. The Mishnah and Talmud are considered to have virtually the same status and are called Oral Torah. Reform Jews, however, understand the texts to have been written by human beings -- ]

So the demographically growing parts of Judaism (the orthodox) see it as authoritative and basically on par with scripture….and the demographically declining parts of Judaism (the reform) don't


Thank you.
TWD 1974
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Redbrickbear said:

TWD 1974 said:

Titus and Titus said:

TWD 1974 said:

l the Talmud contains no explicit reference to Christianity, Christians, Jesus or Mary or any of the disciples. For many centuries, many (some in furtherance of antisemitism) have taken passages and names out of context. The references to a Yeshu are actually a reference to someone who lived long after Jesus of Nazareth.


Once again the Disputation of Paris, as well as other Disputations, are proof that the Talmud does reference Jesus Christ and Mother Mary. The Disputation of Paris was called by King Louis IX who would become Saint Louis.
Neither Louis, nor any of the investigators other than Donin, had read any of the Talmud, as they were completely illiterate of the language of the documents. The 4 Rabbis who spoke in defense stated strenuously that the Talmud did not reference Jesus Christ or Mary or Christians in general. They repeatedly argued the name Yeshu cited by Donin represented someone else, just as there were many Louis in France which were not the King. Current scholarship by people fluent in the Aramaic of the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds support the argument of the 4 Rabbis.


Well that settles it.

It's not like Jewish Rabbis would ever lie to the goyim.

Especially not before the famously pious Christian King of France (he was a Crusader King at that) …when fines, punishment, and possible expulsion were on the line.
The "can't believe the Jews" argument always seems to appear about now. Louis, for all his saintliness, refused to believe the rabbis, accepting from Donin what could not be substantiated--hearsay. { It is believed that Donin was educated in the Karaite Sect, which was opposed to the study of Talmud, relying solely on the Torah. Sadly, the result of the argument was the subsequent burning of thousands of priceless ancient manuscripts, both of the Talmud and the Hebrew Bible (book burners, are not all that discriminating when they get fully into their work)}.
Scholarship in the past century has cast serious doubt to much of what has been claimed about Talmud. I suppose those of a certain persuasion would say "they're still lying," but that would include many Christian scholars, including John P. Meier (A Marginal Jew) who for the most part concurs with the conclusions of Johann Maier on the Talmud.
“No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love Him.” 1 Corinthians 2:9
TWD 1974
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Oldbear83 said:

Redbrickbear said:

TWD 1974 said:

Titus and Titus said:

TWD 1974 said:

l the Talmud contains no explicit reference to Christianity, Christians, Jesus or Mary or any of the disciples. For many centuries, many (some in furtherance of antisemitism) have taken passages and names out of context. The references to a Yeshu are actually a reference to someone who lived long after Jesus of Nazareth.


Once again the Disputation of Paris, as well as other Disputations, are proof that the Talmud does reference Jesus Christ and Mother Mary. The Disputation of Paris was called by King Louis IX who would become Saint Louis.
Neither Louis, nor any of the investigators other than Donin, had read any of the Talmud, as they were completely illiterate of the language of the documents. The 4 Rabbis who spoke in defense stated strenuously that the Talmud did not reference Jesus Christ or Mary or Christians in general. They repeatedly argued the name Yeshu cited by Donin represented someone else, just as there were many Louis in France which were not the King. Current scholarship by people fluent in the Aramaic of the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds support the argument of the 4 Rabbis.


Well that settles it.

It's not like Jewish Rabbis would ever lie to the goyim.

Especially not before the famously pious Christian King of France (he was a Crusader King at that) …when fines, punishment, and possible expulsion were on the line.
Well, if the writer did not mean Jesus, who did he mean? You don't get named in the Talmud if you are just some no-name schmuck.

Even Trump's not named in it, although he may think he is.
pardon my wikipedia cut and paste:

There are several passages in the Talmud which are believed by some scholars to be references to Jesus. The name used in the Talmud is "Yeshu", the Aramaic vocalization (although not spelling) of the Hebrew name Yeshua.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud#cite_note-1][1][/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud#cite_note-2][2][/url]

The identification of Jesus with any number of individuals named Yeshu has numerous problems, as most of the individuals are said to have lived in time periods far detached from that of Jesus; Yeshu the sorcerer is noted for being executed by the Hasmonean government which lost legal authority in 63 BC, Yeshu the student is described being among the Pharisees who returned to Israel from Egypt in 74 BC,[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud#cite_note-3][3][/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud#cite_note-4][4][/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud#cite_note-Talmud_Sanhedrin_107b,_Sotah_47a-5][5][/url] and Yeshu ben Pandera/ben Stada's stepfather is noted as speaking with Rabbi Akiva shortly before the rabbi's execution, an event which occurred in c. 134 AD.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud#cite_note-Talmud_Berakhot_61b-6][6][/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud#cite_note-7][7][/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud#cite_note-8][8][/url] These events would place the lifetime of any Yeshu decades before or after the birth and death of Jesus.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud#cite_note-9][9][/url][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud#cite_note-10][10][/url]
“No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love Him.” 1 Corinthians 2:9
Titus and Titus
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And also:

"Scholars have identified the following references in the Talmud that some conclude refer to Jesus:[92]

Jesus as a sorcerer with disciples (b Sanh 43ab)
Healing in the name of Jesus (Hul 2:22f; AZ 2:22/12; y Shab 124:4/13; QohR 1:8; b AZ 27b)
As a Torah teacher (b AZ 17a; Hul 2:24; QohR 1:8)
As a son or disciple that turned out badly (Sanh 103a/b; Ber 17b)
As a frivolous disciple who practiced magic and turned to idolatry (Sanh 107b; Sot 47a)
Jesus' punishment in afterlife (b Git 56b, 57a)
Jesus' execution (b Sanh 43a-b)
Jesus as the son of Mary (Shab 104b, Sanh 67a)"
Oldbear83
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My point is that the Jewish scholars certainly would have understood that a Christianity-based government would see any reference with that name as referring to Christ. So if they did not mean Jesus the Christ, they would have specified who they meant. If my neighbor, Joe Freaking Biden, is annoying me and I write a nasty post about him, I would recognize the similarity to President Biden, and would be sure to clarify who I meant.

Leaving it vague seems to be a cute move that fooled nobody.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Redbrickbear
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TWD 1974 said:

Redbrickbear said:

TWD 1974 said:

Titus and Titus said:

TWD 1974 said:

l the Talmud contains no explicit reference to Christianity, Christians, Jesus or Mary or any of the disciples. For many centuries, many (some in furtherance of antisemitism) have taken passages and names out of context. The references to a Yeshu are actually a reference to someone who lived long after Jesus of Nazareth.


Once again the Disputation of Paris, as well as other Disputations, are proof that the Talmud does reference Jesus Christ and Mother Mary. The Disputation of Paris was called by King Louis IX who would become Saint Louis.
Neither Louis, nor any of the investigators other than Donin, had read any of the Talmud, as they were completely illiterate of the language of the documents. The 4 Rabbis who spoke in defense stated strenuously that the Talmud did not reference Jesus Christ or Mary or Christians in general. They repeatedly argued the name Yeshu cited by Donin represented someone else, just as there were many Louis in France which were not the King. Current scholarship by people fluent in the Aramaic of the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds support the argument of the 4 Rabbis.


Well that settles it.

It's not like Jewish Rabbis would ever lie to the goyim.

Especially not before the famously pious Christian King of France (he was a Crusader King at that) …when fines, punishment, and possible expulsion were on the line.
The "can't believe the Jews" argument always seems to appear about now. Louis, for all his saintliness, refused to believe the rabbis, accepting from Donin what could not be substantiated--hearsay. { It is believed that Donin was educated in the Karaite Sect, which was opposed to the study of Talmud, relying solely on the Torah. Sadly, the result of the argument was the subsequent burning of thousands of priceless ancient manuscripts, both of the Talmud and the Hebrew Bible (book burners, are not all that discriminating when they get fully into their work)}.
Scholarship in the past century has cast serious doubt to much of what has been claimed about Talmud. I suppose those of a certain persuasion would say "they're still lying," but that would include many Christian scholars, including John P. Meier (A Marginal Jew) who for the most part concurs with the conclusions of Johann Maier on the Talmud.

More of a "people who have a vested interest in not getting expelled, punished, or executed have a reason to lie or at least hide the truth" kind of argument.

Some of the Jesus references in the Talmud may not be reference to the Christian Lord Jesus Christ....some certainly are.

The 4 Rabbis at Paris might have been telling the truth (its certainly possible)...they might also have been lying through their teeth to protect themselves and their ethno-religious community.

You can't know and I can't know.

But only you take their denials as fact.
TWD 1974
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Titus and Titus said:

And also:

"Scholars have identified the following references in the Talmud that some conclude refer to Jesus:[92]

Jesus as a sorcerer with disciples (b Sanh 43ab)
Healing in the name of Jesus (Hul 2:22f; AZ 2:22/12; y Shab 124:4/13; QohR 1:8; b AZ 27b)
As a Torah teacher (b AZ 17a; Hul 2:24; QohR 1:8)
As a son or disciple that turned out badly (Sanh 103a/b; Ber 17b)
As a frivolous disciple who practiced magic and turned to idolatry (Sanh 107b; Sot 47a)
Jesus' punishment in afterlife (b Git 56b, 57a)
Jesus' execution (b Sanh 43a-b)
Jesus as the son of Mary (Shab 104b, Sanh 67a)"
Sorry for the length of the following. The weight of refutation of what you reference is rather substantial.

Is The Talmud Anti-Christian? By Steven Plaut - 17 Av 5771 August 17, 2011

Jews have long been accused of studying anti-Christian texts supposedly contained in the Talmud. Such allegations have been made for so many centuries that even some civilized and fair-minded individuals accept them at face value. Needless to say, the allegations are the staple fare of anti-Semitic organizations and websites. And it was because of such allegations that volumes of the Talmud often were burned, sometimes at the instigation of the Church. But is there any truth to it? As it turns out, every allegation about Talmudic anti-Christian texts is based on the creative deconstruction of references to various sinners and alleging that these actually refer to Christian figures. The deconstruction operates even when the sinner in question has a completely different name, or no name. (An invaluable resource on this subject is the webpage "Jesus in the Talmud," by Rabbi Gil Student, at www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesus.html.)

There are no explicit references to Christianity anywhere in the Talmud, nor to Jesus or Mary, though there are references to people who have names somewhat similar to theirs. There are mentions of several people named Yeshu (the traditional Hebrew name for Jesus), but these were people who lived in different eras, either long before Jesus or long afterward. There is also a story about an immoral woman named Miriam, but again there is no reason why anyone should assume this is referring to the New Testament's Mary. The names Miriam and Yeshu appear in the Jewish Bible, where they obviously do not refer to the Christian figures, and both names were evidently commonly used in the era of the Talmud. The most lurid and common accusation involves a single passage in the Talmudic tractate Gittin, which generally focuses on laws of divorce. Anti-Semites claim the page describes Jesus in the Afterworld being punished by being boiled in excrement. But Jesus is not mentioned there, nor is anyone with a name resembling that of Jesus. What actually is on the page is a long discussion of legends concerning Roman emperors, starting with Caesar and ending with Titus. The immoral behavior of Titus is discussed at length. The various indignities and punishments Titus suffered later in his life are described, with the presumption that these are divine retributions. Having discussed Titus's life at length, a relative of Titus is then discussed. The nephew of Titus was named Onkelos son of Kelonikos, and he converted to Judaism, becoming one of the leading scholars of his age. One of the earliest translations of the Bible (into Aramaic) was undertaken by this same Onkelos and is still an indispensable tool for understanding the Bible. In the Talmudic digression about the life of Onkelos, a story is cited to the effect that when he was at first contemplating converting from Roman paganism to Judaism but had not yet made up his mind, he conjured up his dead uncle, Titus, from the Afterworld. Titus describes his torments there to his nephew. Onkelos then conjures up two other dead sinners: one is the evil Balaam, who lived many centuries earlier, and the last is a nameless Jewish sinner who had mocked the teachings of the sages. Both are suffering torments in the Afterlife, with the last sinner being boiled in feces. The first two sinners advise Onkeles not to convert, while the last sinner advises him to embrace Judaism. Anti-Semites claim, somewhat inconsistently, that Balaam in this page of the Talmud is a secret code word used to mock Jesus and also that the nameless Jewish sinner being discussed is Jesus. But of course they cannot both be referring to Jesus. Actually, neither is. Balaam was never a Jewish code term for Jesus or Christianity. In later Jewish texts, when Jews living under Roman or Christian rule wished to criticize or protest the behavior of the rulers, they used "Edom" and the "descendents of Esau" as code for Romans or Christians. The nameless Jewish sinner included in the story is clearly added to illustrate the torment of a disrespectful Jew compared with the punishments doled out to pagan sinners. In short, nothing here refers to Jesus or any other Christian figures. Other segments of the Talmud cited by anti-Semites as "evidence" are even sillier. In a different Talmudic portion there is a reference to a nameless immoral woman, a descendent of princes, who hung out with carpenters. Evidently because of the carpenter reference, anti-Semites claim this is referring to Mary. There are no Christian sources that claim Mary was descended from any princes. The woman in question is mentioned in the Talmud as someone who practiced sorcery like Balaam. Anti-Semites claim the original text here, later removed by censors, named the woman "Miriam the Hairdresser." Just why anyone would think a hairdresser descendent of princes was referring to the Mary of the New Testament is unclear. One Yeshu discussed in the Talmud is the wayward pupil of a Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Perachiah, and they lived long before Jesus was born, spending much of their lives in Alexandria, Egypt. This Yeshu's sin was that he made a comment about the eyes of a married woman. The Talmud elsewhere says that this Yeshu had close ties with the government. No one claims Jesus was politically well-connected with the Romans. If this were some sort of Talmudic diatribe against Jesus, surely the sages involved could have come up with something better than disapproval of a comment made about a woman's eyes. And from the biographical details, it is clear it could not be referring to the Jesus of Christianity. A different Yeshu is mentioned in the Talmud as having five disciples, four of whom have names that do not resemble any of the disciples of Jesus, while one is named Matai, a common name that some claim resembles Matthew. In other pages of the Talmud one can find references to a Son of Stada, who was a sinner executed on the eve of Passover in Lud after being judged by a Jewish court for sorcery. Anti-Semites have claimed this is a Printed from: https://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/is-the-talmud-anti-christian/2011/08/17/ Scan this QR code to visit this page online: code reference to Jesus. But according to three of the four Gospels of the New Testament, Jesus was not executed on the eve of Passover but on Passover itself; the execution was not in Lud; his father was not Stada; he was judged by a Roman court and was not accused of sorcery; and the Son of Stada evidently lived a century after Jesus. The Talmud cites a dissenting source which claims that Stada was actually the name of the mother of the Son of Stada, and that she left her husband to have an affair with a man named Pandira. This is the section where Stada is also referred to as the Hairdresser Miriam. The first husband of this hairdresser is discussed elsewhere in the Talmud and is known to have lived a century after Jesus. So none of this can be considered to be referring to Jesus. The sages had their theological disagreements with Christianity, but these were not things they discussed in the Talmud. And while Christianity in its earliest phases was a minority movement of Jews who otherwise practiced Judaism, the rabbis who participated in the debates in the Talmud were preoccupied with other matters. Steven Plaut is a professor at the University of Haifa. His book "The Scout" is available at Amazon.com. He can be contacted at steveneplaut@yahoo.com.n to have lived a century after Jesus. So none of this can be considered to be referring to Jesus. The sages had their theological disagreements with Christianity, but these were not things they discussed in the Talmud. And while Christianity in its earliest phases was a minority movement of Jews who otherwise practiced Judaism, the rabbis who participated in the debates in the Talmud were preoccupied with other matters.
Steven Plaut is a professor at the University of Haifa. His book "The Scout" is available at Amazon.com. He can be contacted at steveneplaut@yahoo.com.
“No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love Him.” 1 Corinthians 2:9
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