curtpenn said:

---

- If you believe Mary and the saints can hear your thoughts and prayers, you are attributing to them a level of omniscience, as well as the power and capacity to handle millions and millions of prayers. This is a capacity of the divine. - Mary and the saints exist in the eternal now so they are not bound by linear time. Therefore, there is no reason to assume there is a limitation to their capacity to handle millions of prayers. You cannot prove from the Bible you worship that they are unable to hear us when we invoke them. I reject your use of the term "omniscience" as this implies they know all. They don't. That's why we invoke them when we request their prayers for us.

- How do you know those saints have "jurisdiction" over cancer and fatherhood? By what revelation from God is this based on? More pedantic cant from you. Most of those we include in the category of saints are post the closing of the canon. This is where tradition and reason come along side Scripture.

- God does NOT hear all prayers, especially those that are not directed toward him but rather to idols. Pretty sure God hears all prayers which isn't the same as saying He approves of all prayers.

- Praying to anyone or anything other than God is idolatry. Again and again and again, I reject your assertion that the invocation of the blessed communion of all faithful people is idolatry.

- Praying isn't just "asking for something". It is different from normal, verbal human communication. It is spiritual communication. And your point is...?

Satan approves of your divisiveness. Keep up the good work.

---

"I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household." - Jesus Christ.

The truth divides.

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

---

Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

---

Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

---

No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

---

They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

---

The verse just says they are holding them in bowls. Where do you get they are "offering" them? And why does this automatically imply they heard them, or that they were even directed to them and not to God?

It could be like an offering collection plate passed around in church. The money are in envelopes, so the person holding the plate who then gives it to the pastor/priest doesn't have any idea what each person gave, he's just in charge of collecting and presenting it to the leader of the church.

90sBear said:

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Point being, on one hand you state that scripture is the infallible word of God and that councils of men should not necessarily be listened to, but on the other hand ignore that councils of men (however formal or informal) were responsible for selecting which scriptures were to be followed.

---

Both should be held to the standard upon which they are based:

Doctrines and dogma coming from the councils of men should not be listened to if they break from scripture.

Scripture coming from the councils of men should not be listened to if they break from the objective standard of apostolic authenticity and reliability.

In the instance of Catholic dogmas and doctrines, we have clear evidence they are breaking from Scripture. Your argument seems to be that because we have clear evidence that the former happened, it should be disregarded because we don't have clear evidence that the latter occurred. That's illogical and doesn't make sense.

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

---

Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

---

Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

---

No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

---

They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

---

I just want to add - you're making a lot of assumptions here from scripture that is more metophorical than explicit. Is that really a solid base upon which to build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

- If you believe Mary and the saints can hear your thoughts and prayers, you are attributing to them a level of omniscience, as well as the power and capacity to handle millions and millions of prayers. This is a capacity of the divine. - Mary and the saints exist in the eternal now so they are not bound by linear time. Therefore, there is no reason to assume there is a limitation to their capacity to handle millions of prayers. You cannot prove from the Bible you worship that they are unable to hear us when we invoke them. I reject your use of the term "omniscience" as this implies they know all. They don't. That's why we invoke them when we request their prayers for us.

- How do you know those saints have "jurisdiction" over cancer and fatherhood? By what revelation from God is this based on? More pedantic cant from you. Most of those we include in the category of saints are post the closing of the canon. This is where tradition and reason come along side Scripture.

- God does NOT hear all prayers, especially those that are not directed toward him but rather to idols. Pretty sure God hears all prayers which isn't the same as saying He approves of all prayers.

- Praying to anyone or anything other than God is idolatry. Again and again and again, I reject your assertion that the invocation of the blessed communion of all faithful people is idolatry.

- Praying isn't just "asking for something". It is different from normal, verbal human communication. It is spiritual communication. And your point is...?

Satan approves of your divisiveness. Keep up the good work.

---

"I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household." - Jesus Christ.

The truth divides.

---

Typical woefully inadequate eisegesis from you that we have all come to expect. Why am I not surprised? The gospel according to St Matthew 10:33 (the preceding verse) tells us Jesus was addressing those who deny Him before men. I can hear you even now erroneously asserting that invoking the saints = denying Jesus before men. Lol. The truth is you do a great deal of dividing and damaging the the body of Christ.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers, a capacity only of the divine. Nowhere in scripture are we told to spiritually communicate with any entity except God/Jesus alone. The belief that Mary and saints have a level of omniscience and power that allows them to hear and accept prayers, and can effect results and blessings, and that each saint has "jurisdiction" over certain areas (healing, protection, fertility) is the same thing that the pagan world believed in their idols. How do you even know if these people are truly in heaven? Only God knows that. What if you're praying to someone in hell?

Making supplications via spiritual communication to any entity other than God is idolatry. Prayer is a form of worship. The practice is NOT taught by Jesus or his disciples, or believed and practiced by the early Christians. Nowhere in scripture is prayer to Mary or saints supported. Follow the infallible Word of God, not the fallible traditions of man.

---

You are making a very Protestant and very Baptist argument against the practice.

An argument I of course agree with since I'm a low church Southern Baptist from East Texas…but 90% of Christian's on earth disagree and will continue to pray for the intercession of the Saints, Archangels, and Mary.

90% world Christians don't believe in just sola scriptura anyway.

They will continue to believe some version of what the Council of Trent said:

[The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. ...They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus. ...So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped]

---

The argument against the practice is not denominational, it is scriptural. Scripture is the infallible word of God, tradition is the fallible way of man. Believing something to be true simply because a church Council declared it so is dangerous for that reason. Jesus said we'll know something by its fruits. Look at the fruits of these councils: the Catholic Church dogmatized that Mary was completely sinless and was assumed bodily into heaven where she is prayed to for intercession. Does that sound like anyone you know?

Believing that those in heaven are interceding for us on their own accord is one thing. Believing that they are to be prayed to for that intercession, is entirely another. Whether or not the majority of Christians believe and practice something has nothing to do with its truth. It must always be weighed against scripture, because scripture is the only thing that we have that Jesus himself fully verified as being the word of God.

---

Agree that Holy Scripture is the infallible and inspired word of God in its original language. However, it is not self interpreting. Interpretation is the fallible way of man. Believing something to be true simply because that is how you interpret Scripture is dangerous for that reason. Jesus said we'll know something by its fruits. Those who venerate Mary and the saints comprise the majority of all Christians alive today and who have ever lived. That is a bounteous harvest indeed.

Please demonstrate for us from Scripture where we are explicitly commanded to refrain from invoking Mary or the saints. Also, I have never seen what you believe the First Church of Tarp Dusting holds to be the means of our salvation beyond what you label "saving faith". Could you please expand on that and how said saving faith may or may not be compatible with the invocation or veneration of the saints?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

---

Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

---

Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

---

No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

---

They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

---

I just want to add - you're making a lot of assumptions here from scripture that is more metophorical than explicit. Is that really a solid base upon which to build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship?

---

This is my point. You can't build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship on the Bible alone. You may think that's what you're doing, but in fact we're all relying on an interpretive tradition in some form or another.

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

---

Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

---

Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

---

No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

---

They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

---

I just want to add - you're making a lot of assumptions here from scripture that is more metophorical than explicit. Is that really a solid base upon which to build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship?

---

This is my point. You can't build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship on the Bible alone. You may think that's what you're doing, but in fact we're all relying on an interpretive tradition in some form or another.

---

Sure you can, and there are numerous examples of churches that have done so. The Bible should be the sole source by which we measure all belief and practice. When we stray outside of its precepts, we are treading on dangerous ground. Heretics and false prophets throughout history have said they were inspired or heard from God to justify extra-scriptural belief.

When we put tradition above scripture - which the Catholic Church so often does - we are diluting the word of God and creating a very slippery slope to justify all sorts of extra-scriptural tradition. Praying to men, infant baptism, relying on works instead of grace, etc are but a few examples that find no support in scripture.

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

---

Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

---

Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

---

No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

---

They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

---

I just want to add - you're making a lot of assumptions here from scripture that is more metophorical than explicit. Is that really a solid base upon which to build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship?

---

This is my point. You can't build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship on the Bible alone. You may think that's what you're doing, but in fact we're all relying on an interpretive tradition in some form or another.

---

Sure you can, and there are numerous examples of churches that have done so. The Bible should be the sole source by which we measure all belief and practice. When we stray outside of its precepts, we are treading on dangerous ground. Heretics and false prophets throughout history have said they were inspired or heard from God to justify extra-scriptural belief.

When we put tradition above scripture - which the Catholic Church so often does - we are diluting the word of God and creating a very slippery slope to justify all sorts of extra-scriptural tradition. Praying to men, infant baptism, relying on works instead of grace, etc are but a few examples that find no support in scripture.

---

And the next thing you know, churches will have "worship teams" and turn church into entertainment.

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

---

Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

---

Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

---

No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

---

They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

---

I just want to add - you're making a lot of assumptions here from scripture that is more metophorical than explicit. Is that really a solid base upon which to build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship?

---

This is my point. You can't build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship on the Bible alone. You may think that's what you're doing, but in fact we're all relying on an interpretive tradition in some form or another.

---

Heretics and false prophets throughout history have said they were inspired or heard from God to justify extra-scriptural belief.

---

And they all use the Bible to justify it. QED.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

---

Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

---

Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

---

No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

---

They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

---

I just want to add - you're making a lot of assumptions here from scripture that is more metophorical than explicit. Is that really a solid base upon which to build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship?

---

This is my point. You can't build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship on the Bible alone. You may think that's what you're doing, but in fact we're all relying on an interpretive tradition in some form or another.

---

Heretics and false prophets throughout history have said they were inspired or heard from God to justify extra-scriptural belief.

---

And they all use the Bible to justify it. QED.

---

Whether they use it or not doesn't mean it is.

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

---

Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

---

Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

---

No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

---

They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

---

I just want to add - you're making a lot of assumptions here from scripture that is more metophorical than explicit. Is that really a solid base upon which to build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship?

---

This is my point. You can't build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship on the Bible alone. You may think that's what you're doing, but in fact we're all relying on an interpretive tradition in some form or another.

---

Sure you can, and there are numerous examples of churches that have done so. The Bible should be the sole source by which we measure all belief and practice. When we stray outside of its precepts, we are treading on dangerous ground. Heretics and false prophets throughout history have said they were inspired or heard from God to justify extra-scriptural belief.

When we put tradition above scripture - which the Catholic Church so often does - we are diluting the word of God and creating a very slippery slope to justify all sorts of extra-scriptural tradition. Praying to men, infant baptism, relying on works instead of grace, etc are but a few examples that find no support in scripture.

---

And the next thing you know, churches will have "worship teams" and turn church into entertainment.

---

Some do some don't. Regardless, a worship team isn't extra-scriptural.

Praying to Mary, infant baptism and a works-based faith are.

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

---

Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

---

Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

---

No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

---

They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

---

I just want to add - you're making a lot of assumptions here from scripture that is more metophorical than explicit. Is that really a solid base upon which to build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship?

---

This is my point. You can't build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship on the Bible alone. You may think that's what you're doing, but in fact we're all relying on an interpretive tradition in some form or another.

---

Sure you can, and there are numerous examples of churches that have done so. The Bible should be the sole source by which we measure all belief and practice. When we stray outside of its precepts, we are treading on dangerous ground. Heretics and false prophets throughout history have said they were inspired or heard from God to justify extra-scriptural belief.

When we put tradition above scripture - which the Catholic Church so often does - we are diluting the word of God and creating a very slippery slope to justify all sorts of extra-scriptural tradition. Praying to men, infant baptism, relying on works instead of grace, etc are but a few examples that find no support in scripture.

---

And the next thing you know, churches will have "worship teams" and turn church into entertainment.

---

Some do some don't. Regardless, a worship team isn't extra-scriptural.

Praying to Mary, infant baptism and a works-based faith are.

---

Do you really want to start yet another argument about Marion veneration, infant baptism, and a works-based faith? Not sure I have the energy or interest to do this right now, but might want to later. I regularly invoke the saints, am pleased my grandsons were baptized as infants, and believe I had to do something to be saved.

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

---

Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

---

Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

---

No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

---

They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

---

I just want to add - you're making a lot of assumptions here from scripture that is more metophorical than explicit. Is that really a solid base upon which to build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship?

---

This is my point. You can't build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship on the Bible alone. You may think that's what you're doing, but in fact we're all relying on an interpretive tradition in some form or another.

---

Sure you can, and there are numerous examples of churches that have done so. The Bible should be the sole source by which we measure all belief and practice. When we stray outside of its precepts, we are treading on dangerous ground. Heretics and false prophets throughout history have said they were inspired or heard from God to justify extra-scriptural belief.

When we put tradition above scripture - which the Catholic Church so often does - we are diluting the word of God and creating a very slippery slope to justify all sorts of extra-scriptural tradition. Praying to men, infant baptism, relying on works instead of grace, etc are but a few examples that find no support in scripture.

---

And the next thing you know, churches will have "worship teams" and turn church into entertainment.

---

Some do some don't. Regardless, a worship team isn't extra-scriptural.

Praying to Mary, infant baptism and a works-based faith are.

---

Do you really want to start yet another argument about Marion veneration, infant baptism, and a works-based faith? Not sure I have the energy or interest to do this right now, but might want to later. I regularly invoke the saints, am pleased my grandsons were baptized as infants, and believe I had to do something to be saved.

---

I'm not interested in arguing with anyone. But it doesn't change the fact there is no scriptural support for any of the above.

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

---

Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

---

Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

---

No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

---

They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

---

I just want to add - you're making a lot of assumptions here from scripture that is more metophorical than explicit. Is that really a solid base upon which to build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship?

---

This is my point. You can't build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship on the Bible alone. You may think that's what you're doing, but in fact we're all relying on an interpretive tradition in some form or another.

---

Sure you can, and there are numerous examples of churches that have done so. The Bible should be the sole source by which we measure all belief and practice. When we stray outside of its precepts, we are treading on dangerous ground. Heretics and false prophets throughout history have said they were inspired or heard from God to justify extra-scriptural belief.

When we put tradition above scripture - which the Catholic Church so often does - we are diluting the word of God and creating a very slippery slope to justify all sorts of extra-scriptural tradition. Praying to men, infant baptism, relying on works instead of grace, etc are but a few examples that find no support in scripture.

---

And the next thing you know, churches will have "worship teams" and turn church into entertainment.

---

Some do some don't. Regardless, a worship team isn't extra-scriptural.

Praying to Mary, infant baptism and a works-based faith are.

---

Do you really want to start yet another argument about Marion veneration, infant baptism, and a works-based faith? Not sure I have the energy or interest to do this right now, but might want to later. I regularly invoke the saints, am pleased my grandsons were baptized as infants, and believe I had to do something to be saved.

---

I'm not interested in arguing with anyone. But it doesn't change the fact there is no scriptural support for any of the above.

---

All the above can be inferred from Scripture and there is no prohibition against them when Scripture is properly understood.

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

---

Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

---

Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

---

No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

---

They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

---

I just want to add - you're making a lot of assumptions here from scripture that is more metophorical than explicit. Is that really a solid base upon which to build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship?

---

This is my point. You can't build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship on the Bible alone. You may think that's what you're doing, but in fact we're all relying on an interpretive tradition in some form or another.

---

Heretics and false prophets throughout history have said they were inspired or heard from God to justify extra-scriptural belief.

---

And they all use the Bible to justify it. QED.

---

Whether they use it or not doesn't mean it is.

---

Who decides?

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

---

Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

---

Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

---

No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

---

They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

---

I just want to add - you're making a lot of assumptions here from scripture that is more metophorical than explicit. Is that really a solid base upon which to build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship?

---

This is my point. You can't build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship on the Bible alone. You may think that's what you're doing, but in fact we're all relying on an interpretive tradition in some form or another.

---

It's amazing how much you sound like Waco1947. This very mindset is at the very root of the corruption of the Christian faith by progressives.

If you believe the bible to be the infallible, inspired word of God, then any tradition must be weighed against that standard. If you believe, rather, that tradition can be added to the authority of Scripture, then you've just created a moving standard, and you've lost all integrity and internal consistency of your faith. This is how a faith gets corrupted, and over time it's how you can get to where prayers to Mary like the ones I listed become acceptable, even when it is clear idolatry and heresy.

I am sure you are aware of how progressive the current Pope is. He has inserted many of like mind in the college of Cardinals. Don't be surprised if what you believe as a Catholic now, will eventually become dogmatized against in the future. That's the inevitable result if you abandon the principle of Sola Scriptura in favor of the fallible traditions of man.

curtpenn said:

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Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

---

Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

---

Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

---

No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

---

They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

---

I just want to add - you're making a lot of assumptions here from scripture that is more metophorical than explicit. Is that really a solid base upon which to build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship?

---

This is my point. You can't build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship on the Bible alone. You may think that's what you're doing, but in fact we're all relying on an interpretive tradition in some form or another.

---

Sure you can, and there are numerous examples of churches that have done so. The Bible should be the sole source by which we measure all belief and practice. When we stray outside of its precepts, we are treading on dangerous ground. Heretics and false prophets throughout history have said they were inspired or heard from God to justify extra-scriptural belief.

When we put tradition above scripture - which the Catholic Church so often does - we are diluting the word of God and creating a very slippery slope to justify all sorts of extra-scriptural tradition. Praying to men, infant baptism, relying on works instead of grace, etc are but a few examples that find no support in scripture.

---

And the next thing you know, churches will have "worship teams" and turn church into entertainment.

---

Some do some don't. Regardless, a worship team isn't extra-scriptural.

Praying to Mary, infant baptism and a works-based faith are.

---

Do you really want to start yet another argument about Marion veneration, infant baptism, and a works-based faith? Not sure I have the energy or interest to do this right now, but might want to later. I regularly invoke the saints, am pleased my grandsons were baptized as infants, and believe I had to do something to be saved.

---

I'm not interested in arguing with anyone. But it doesn't change the fact there is no scriptural support for any of the above.

---

All the above can be inferred from Scripture and there is no prohibition against them when Scripture is properly understood.

---

Respectfully, if you have to infer it you are on shaky ground.

But we can agree to disagree. I prefer to follow what it says explicitly.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

---

Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

---

Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

---

No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

---

They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

---

I just want to add - you're making a lot of assumptions here from scripture that is more metophorical than explicit. Is that really a solid base upon which to build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship?

---

This is my point. You can't build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship on the Bible alone. You may think that's what you're doing, but in fact we're all relying on an interpretive tradition in some form or another.

---

Heretics and false prophets throughout history have said they were inspired or heard from God to justify extra-scriptural belief.

---

And they all use the Bible to justify it. QED.

---

Whether they use it or not doesn't mean it is.

---

Who decides?

---

God.

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

---

Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

---

Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

---

No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

---

They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

---

I just want to add - you're making a lot of assumptions here from scripture that is more metophorical than explicit. Is that really a solid base upon which to build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship?

---

This is my point. You can't build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship on the Bible alone. You may think that's what you're doing, but in fact we're all relying on an interpretive tradition in some form or another.

---

Heretics and false prophets throughout history have said they were inspired or heard from God to justify extra-scriptural belief.

---

And they all use the Bible to justify it. QED.

---

Whether they use it or not doesn't mean it is.

---

Who decides?

---

God.

---

And I suppose we can count on you and TarpDuster to let us know what God says?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

---

Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

---

Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

---

No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

---

They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

---

I just want to add - you're making a lot of assumptions here from scripture that is more metophorical than explicit. Is that really a solid base upon which to build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship?

---

This is my point. You can't build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship on the Bible alone. You may think that's what you're doing, but in fact we're all relying on an interpretive tradition in some form or another.

---

It's amazing how much you sound like Waco1947. This very mindset is at the very root of the corruption of the Christian faith by progressives.

---

Have you considered how much you sound like Waco1947? He doesn't need any popes (or reformers) to tell him what to do. He has the Bible and his modern "theologians," and they know better than anyone else. Sounds like a good fundamentalist to me.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

---

Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

---

Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

---

No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

---

They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

---

I just want to add - you're making a lot of assumptions here from scripture that is more metophorical than explicit. Is that really a solid base upon which to build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship?

---

This is my point. You can't build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship on the Bible alone. You may think that's what you're doing, but in fact we're all relying on an interpretive tradition in some form or another.

---

Heretics and false prophets throughout history have said they were inspired or heard from God to justify extra-scriptural belief.

---

And they all use the Bible to justify it. QED.

---

Whether they use it or not doesn't mean it is.

---

Who decides?

---

God.

---

And I suppose we can count on you and TarpDuster to let us know what God says?

---

No. We know what god says by reading scripture.

This ain't difficult. I'm am surprised you're having such a hard time understanding. You don't need a fallible pope to tell you what god thinks.

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

---

Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

---

Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

---

No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

---

They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

---

I just want to add - you're making a lot of assumptions here from scripture that is more metophorical than explicit. Is that really a solid base upon which to build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship?

---

This is my point. You can't build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship on the Bible alone. You may think that's what you're doing, but in fact we're all relying on an interpretive tradition in some form or another.

---

It's amazing how much you sound like Waco1947. This very mindset is at the very root of the corruption of the Christian faith by progressives.

---

Have you considered how much you sound like Waco1947? He doesn't need any popes (or reformers) to tell him what to do. He has the Bible and his modern "theologians," and they know better than anyone else. Sounds like a good fundamentalist to me.

---

But I'm not the one undermining the authority and plain meaning of Scripture, and trying to build a whole theology around very shaky eisegesis, though.

Very odd that you'd call someone who's rejected a good portion of Scripture according to his whim as "fundamentalist".

Y'all are not seeing the issue here. I already know what you think Scripture means. The question is what makes you more authoritative than the Church, Waco1947, or anyone else. How do I know you're right and they're wrong?

Sam Lowry said:

---

Y'all are not seeing the issue here. I already know what you think Scripture means. The question is what makes you more authoritative than the Church, Waco1947, or anyone else. How do I know you're right and they're wrong?

---

Can we not agree on the plain things of Scripture? Can we agree, for example, that Waco47's theology that Jesus was not bodily raised and that homosexual relationships are not a sin to be blatantly anti-scriptural? If so, then my next question is this: can you not see that those prayers to Mary I listed elevate Mary to the level of Jesus, which makes it heretical and idolatrous? If you can, then the question becomes this: can you agree then, that the Church's authority therefore is fallible, and should not be always trusted, but rather, their proclamations must all be weighed against our good faith understanding of Scripture?

Sam Lowry said:

---

Y'all are not seeing the issue here. I already know what you think Scripture means. The question is what makes you more authoritative than the Church, Waco1947, or anyone else. How do I know you're right and they're wrong?

---

So it's your position that scripture is so opaque that the individual believer is unable to understand its true meaning without assistance from a third party?

Sorry brother but our God is not a God of confusion. While I know that for centuries the Catholic Church has attempted to brainwash (in some cases by threat of death) its adherents to believe that man cannot know God's will outside of Catholicism, as Martin Luther found, God doesn't make his precepts so difficult to comprehend that one needs an all powerful pope to help him understand God's will. I'd suggest reading it sometime and find out for yourself.

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Y'all are not seeing the issue here. I already know what you think Scripture means. The question is what makes you more authoritative than the Church, Waco1947, or anyone else. How do I know you're right and they're wrong?

---

So it's your position that scripture is so opaque that the individual believer is unable to understand its true meaning without assistance from a third party?

Sorry brother but our God is not a God of confusion. While I know that for centuries the Catholic Church has attempted to brainwash (in some cases by threat of death) its adherents to believe that man cannot know God's will outside of Catholicism, as Martin Luther found, God doesn't make his precepts so difficult to comprehend that one needs an all powerful pope to help him understand God's will. I'd suggest reading it sometime and find out f

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

---

Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

---

Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

---

No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

---

They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

---

I just want to add - you're making a lot of assumptions here from scripture that is more metophorical than explicit. Is that really a solid base upon which to build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship?

---

This is my point. You can't build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship on the Bible alone. You may think that's what you're doing, but in fact we're all relying on an interpretive tradition in some form or another.

---

Heretics and false prophets throughout history have said they were inspired or heard from God to justify extra-scriptural belief.

---

And they all use the Bible to justify it. QED.

---

Whether they use it or not doesn't mean it is.

---

Who decides?

---

God.

---

And I suppose we can count on you and TarpDuster to let us know what God says?

---

No. We know what god says by reading scripture.

This ain't difficult. I'm am surprised you're having such a hard time understanding. You don't need a fallible pope to tell you what god thinks.

---

We also don't need you or BTD to tell us what God thinks.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Y'all are not seeing the issue here. I already know what you think Scripture means. The question is what makes you more authoritative than the Church, Waco1947, or anyone else. How do I know you're right and they're wrong?

---

So it's your position that scripture is so opaque that the individual believer is unable to understand its true meaning without assistance from a third party?

Sorry brother but our God is not a God of confusion. While I know that for centuries the Catholic Church has attempted to brainwash (in some cases by threat of death) its adherents to believe that man cannot know God's will outside of Catholicism, as Martin Luther found, God doesn't make his precepts so difficult to comprehend that one needs an all powerful pope to help him understand God's will. I'd suggest reading it sometime and find out f

---

---

What do you say to the Lutherans, Orthodox, Anglicans and other Catholics who are not Roman? This isn't just about the Pope. Plenty of us have read and studied at least as much as you if not more and reached different conclusions. You have no place to stand other than what is in your own head. If I say that God through the work of the Holy Spirit has led me to a different place, you have no authority to deny that. I presume you believe the priesthood of the believer is Biblical?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers, a capacity only of the divine. Nowhere in scripture are we told to spiritually communicate with any entity except God/Jesus alone. The belief that Mary and saints have a level of omniscience and power that allows them to hear and accept prayers, and can effect results and blessings, and that each saint has "jurisdiction" over certain areas (healing, protection, fertility) is the same thing that the pagan world believed in their idols. How do you even know if these people are truly in heaven? Only God knows that. What if you're praying to someone in hell?

Making supplications via spiritual communication to any entity other than God is idolatry. Prayer is a form of worship. The practice is NOT taught by Jesus or his disciples, or believed and practiced by the early Christians. Nowhere in scripture is prayer to Mary or saints supported. Follow the infallible Word of God, not the fallible traditions of man.

---

That first sentence is crazy ignorant. Please stop. You do not know everything.

curtpenn said:

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Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers…

---

Doesn't Rev 5:8 mean the same thing?

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Where do you get that those bowls contain the prayers to them, and not to God? They are the prayers "of" the saints, not "to" them. In Revelation angels are also holding and pouring out bowls - bowls of God's wrath on the earth. The bowls of wrath were no more wrath directed towards the angels, as the bowls of prayers were prayers directed to the 24 elders. That is just bad eisegesis, especially since there is no other supporting scripture.

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Stay on track. Your issue was whether the saints in heaven can hear our prayers. If they can present our prayers to God, does that not imply that they can hear them?

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No, I don't see how that is implied. If the elders are holding bowls of prayers, how does it follow that they can hear them?

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They can't very well offer our prayers to God unless they're aware of them. So the verse suggests that this is not a uniquely divine capacity.

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I just want to add - you're making a lot of assumptions here from scripture that is more metophorical than explicit. Is that really a solid base upon which to build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship?

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This is my point. You can't build a whole system of belief, practice, and worship on the Bible alone. You may think that's what you're doing, but in fact we're all relying on an interpretive tradition in some form or another.

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Heretics and false prophets throughout history have said they were inspired or heard from God to justify extra-scriptural belief.

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And they all use the Bible to justify it. QED.

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Whether they use it or not doesn't mean it is.

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Who decides?

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God.

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And I suppose we can count on you and TarpDuster to let us know what God says?

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No. We know what god says by reading scripture.

This ain't difficult. I'm am surprised you're having such a hard time understanding. You don't need a fallible pope to tell you what god thinks.

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We also don't need you or BTD to tell us what God thinks.

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Don't disagree with that. I don't profess to have any special skill in that area outside of being able to read.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Y'all are not seeing the issue here. I already know what you think Scripture means. The question is what makes you more authoritative than the Church, Waco1947, or anyone else. How do I know you're right and they're wrong?

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Can we not agree on the plain things of Scripture? Can we agree, for example, that Waco47's theology that Jesus was not bodily raised and that homosexual relationships are not a sin to be blatantly anti-scriptural? If so, then my next question is this: can you not see that those prayers to Mary I listed elevate Mary to the level of Jesus, which makes it heretical and idolatrous? If you can, then the question becomes this: can you agree then, that the Church's authority therefore is fallible, and should not be always trusted, but rather, their proclamations must all be weighed against our good faith understanding of Scripture?

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We probably agree on most things. The question is, when we don't agree, whose word is authoritative? Scripture doesn't interpret itself. I can even agree that some of the passages you quoted sound perplexing to modern ears. But I interpret them in light of what I know of Catholic theology, which emphatically does not equate Mary or any of the saints with God.

Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Y'all are not seeing the issue here. I already know what you think Scripture means. The question is what makes you more authoritative than the Church, Waco1947, or anyone else. How do I know you're right and they're wrong?

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So it's your position that scripture is so opaque that the individual believer is unable to understand its true meaning without assistance from a third party?

Sorry brother but our God is not a God of confusion. While I know that for centuries the Catholic Church has attempted to brainwash (in some cases by threat of death) its adherents to believe that man cannot know God's will outside of Catholicism, as Martin Luther found, God doesn't make his precepts so difficult to comprehend that one needs an all powerful pope to help him understand God's will. I'd suggest reading it sometime and find out for yourself.

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There are thousands of Christian denominations, so obviously there is confusion somewhere. I'm certainly not suggesting that God is the author of it.

Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Y'all are not seeing the issue here. I already know what you think Scripture means. The question is what makes you more authoritative than the Church, Waco1947, or anyone else. How do I know you're right and they're wrong?

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So it's your position that scripture is so opaque that the individual believer is unable to understand its true meaning without assistance from a third party?

Sorry brother but our God is not a God of confusion. While I know that for centuries the Catholic Church has attempted to brainwash (in some cases by threat of death) its adherents to believe that man cannot know God's will outside of Catholicism, as Martin Luther found, God doesn't make his precepts so difficult to comprehend that one needs an all powerful pope to help him understand God's will. I'd suggest reading it sometime and find out for yourself.

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There are thousands of Christian denominations, so obviously there is confusion somewhere. I'm certainly not suggesting that God is the author of it.

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Agreed it's not God that's the author of the confusion. Unfortunately fallible men over the centuries have twisted his word to retain power. See your church's long history…

Porteroso said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Praying to saints or to Mary means you believe they can hear your thoughts and prayers, a capacity only of the divine. Nowhere in scripture are we told to spiritually communicate with any entity except God/Jesus alone. The belief that Mary and saints have a level of omniscience and power that allows them to hear and accept prayers, and can effect results and blessings, and that each saint has "jurisdiction" over certain areas (healing, protection, fertility) is the same thing that the pagan world believed in their idols. How do you even know if these people are truly in heaven? Only God knows that. What if you're praying to someone in hell?

Making supplications via spiritual communication to any entity other than God is idolatry. Prayer is a form of worship. The practice is NOT taught by Jesus or his disciples, or believed and practiced by the early Christians. Nowhere in scripture is prayer to Mary or saints supported. Follow the infallible Word of God, not the fallible traditions of man.

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That first sentence is crazy ignorant. Please stop. You do not know everything.

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Why is it "crazy ignorant"?? Scripture tells us that God/Jesus knows our thoughts and what's in our heart:

• "O LORD, you have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar." (Psalm 139:1-2)
• "But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?" (Matthew 9:4)
• "But he, knowing their thoughts, said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and a divided household falls." (Luke 11:17)
• "And all the churches will know that I (Jesus) am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works."

NOWHERE in Scripture are we told that anyone else has this ability except God/Jesus. Look at 1 Kings 8:39:

"....then hear in heaven your dwelling place and forgive and act and render to each whose heart you know, according to all his ways (for you [God], YOU ONLY, know the hearts of all the children of mankind)" (emphasis mine).



So if I have scriptural evidence of which I speak, how is that "crazy ignorant", unless you have evidence to the contrary?

You said: "You don't know everything." - Precisely. Only God does. That's my point.