Every country with the resources lobbies our government on their behalf. It's not unusual for Israel to do that.

The_barBEARian said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

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Realitybites said:

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Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism list since its inception decades ago....for using terrorism as an instrument of state policy against the USA and its allies. We did not risk a single US soldier to help Israel. All we did was sell them arms/ammo, which got real life battlefield testing.

What's that worth to you?

---

You mean the state sponsor of terrorism list - 7 countries in 5 years - that Netanyahu put together under the Bush Jr admin?

First, I dont count dual citizens as real citizens. Dual citizenship did not exist until the late 70ties when Jews pushed congress to allow them to hold Israeli citizenship. So when people bring up American hostages I correct them and remind them these are Israeli hostages and many real, legacy Americans agree with me.

Second, pretty much all of the American causalities caused Shia/Iranian proxies were folks who volunteered to work as mercenaries in the middle east for Israeli interests. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Sunni terrorism promoted by the Saudis is far more odious. They pick soft targets and kill far more civilians. Yet you support the Sunni terrorists who now control Syria and consider Saudi Arabia an ally of the United States...

Third, we could get real battlefield testing against the cartels in Mexico. They are a far greater threat to most Americans than Iranians.

---

1. It does not matter if you count dual citizenship as real. The U.S. government does. It's in our laws.
2. American victims of Shiite terrorism include lots of innocent people. For example, the American embassy hostages in Tehran 1979-1980 were American personnel, officials of the U.S. government. They were not mercenaries.
3. Sunni terrorism is more complicated as is almost everything to do with the Middle East but the US government considers Saudi Arabia an ally because we have worked together pretty well for decades in a variety of ways. The Gulf War is an obvious example. Cold War cooperation is another.

sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

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Realitybites said:

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Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

That's what countries are supposed to do, no? Source: MAGA.

---

Exactly the issue people have with DC and the current political class there

(spending vast sums of tax payer money, time, resources, and rhetoric on peoples and countries other than the USA)

I have no problem with Tel Aviv putting Israel first....as long as well all agree what the relationship is in reality

---

Sure but sometimes what's good for one country also is good for others. And I (and our government) believe in most cases what is good for Israel is good for us.

---

Leaving out the fact that Israel has a massively powerful lobbying group inside the USA designed to push their interests in our Federal government.

https://readsludge.com/2024/08/27/aipac-officially-surpasses-100-million-in-spending-on-2024-elections/

To the tune of $100 million each election cycle

Many people feel that warps the process of determining if this relationship is America first or Israel first

---

I know it's out of fashion, but I've never bought into the lobbying influence angle, whether it's Israel, any other country, industry, or interest group. All significant players (countries, industries, and interest groups) lobby and pays big $. I used to work campaigns. I never knew a politician who changed their mind based on who paid the most money. They just accepted money from everyone.

When politicians change their mind, they do so based on votes. And the Jewish vote in the vast majority of the U.S. is either not significant or is not moveable.

---

The Jewish vote does not influence politicians nearly as much as the votes of evangelicals sympathetic to Israel.

historian said:

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Realitybites said:

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Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Here is a scholarly account of the attacks on the USS Liberty by a respectable historian:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-uss-liberty-case-closed-quot

Regardless of what happened 57 years ago I'm unsure why it matters so much now. Few Americans hold a grudge against Japan for Pearl Harbor, the Bataan Death March, or anything else related to WWII (same with Germany) so hold a grudge for an event from decades past? Both governments have moved on and I'm not sure what is served by dwelling on it today. Like Israel, we are now allies with Japan & Germany. Heck, during the war we were allies with the Soviet Union! Geopolitics is messy.

---

Thank you. Pilots said it was misidentification. Either we go to war with Israel or you take the word of an Allie.

The_barBEARian said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

It benefits us almost as much as it benefits Israel, the only difference being it's an existential struggle for Israel and not quite that for us. That makes them the perfect proxy - one who is desperate and needs us badly. That our interests align so seamlessly is a big factor, too....from geopolitics to philosophy. Israel is a part of Western Culture; the Jewish faith is as arguably an even bigger foundation stone of western civilization than Rome or Greece.

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

Obama/Biden policy on Iran was a real head scratcher. How could they be so disconnected from reality? Without regime change in Tehran, Iran will be what it has been since 1980 - a weak but fervent antagonist seeking to destabilize all our arrangements.

---

Israel is part of western culture?

The Jewish faith is the biggest foundation stone in western civilization???

My god... you Boomercons are the most brainwashed individuals on the planet.

The Jewish faith has always been like oil and water with western civilization, which is why whereever Jewish enclaves have existed, there has always been friction with the native populations of Europe.... Russia, Poland, Germany, Britain, France, and Spain

---

What? Christianity is foundational for western civilization, arguably more so than classic Greek or Roman civilization. Christianity came out of Judaism. These are facts. Nothing about this is shocking.

Antisemitism is the issue, not the presence of Jews in Europe if the US. This hatred is irrational and generally ignorant.

KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

Israeli invasions of those places were always in response to numerous attacks by the Islamofascist there against Israel. They were defending themselves and had every right to do that. Yes, thousands died. That's what happens in a war. Israel has been at war with their neighbors, off and on, for their entire history. Those are existential wars against enemies who want to destroy them and annihilate their population. Again, they had that right and it's what any other nation would do under the same circumstances.

Judea-Christian culture, values, & morality are very real. It does not matter how many people deny those realities, they are fundamental to understanding the history of western civilization.

KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

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Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

The_barBEARian said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

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Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism list since its inception decades ago....for using terrorism as an instrument of state policy against the USA and its allies. We did not risk a single US soldier to help Israel. All we did was sell them arms/ammo, which got real life battlefield testing.

What's that worth to you?

---

You mean the state sponsor of terrorism list - 7 countries in 5 years - that Netanyahu put together under the Bush Jr admin?
Your ignorance knows no bounds. The SSoT list has been around for over 50 years, and Syria has been on it from day one. So has Iran and, until the fall of Saddam, Iraq. The others are failed states which are incubators of all kinds of foreign policy problems.

First, I dont count dual citizens as real citizens. Dual citizenship did not exist until the late 70ties when Jews pushed congress to allow them to hold Israeli citizenship. So when people bring up American hostages I correct them and remind them these are Israeli hostages and many real, legacy Americans agree with me.
USA does not acknowledge dual citizenship. If you are a US citizen, you are a US citizen. Doesn't matter whether you hold other citizenship or not, completely irrelevant as far as the statute goes.

Second, pretty much all of the American causalities caused Shia/Iranian proxies were folks who volunteered to work as mercenaries in the middle east for Israeli interests. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
An American citizen is an American citizen. Picking and choosing tiers of perfection according to immutable traits is BLM-esque thinking, but then you don't do any thinking, so the correlation is entirely coincidental.

Sunni terrorism promoted by the Saudis is far more odious. They pick soft targets and kill far more civilians. Yet you support the Sunni terrorists who now control Syria and consider Saudi Arabia an ally of the United States...
Saudi Arabia never, as a matter of state policy, fomented attacks against the USA. The Assad regime in Syria did.

Intelligence liaison and military cooperation with the Saudis is a positive dynamic.
The Assad regime was allied with the most implacably anti-American regime on the planet - Iran. As well as Russia, who is threatening Nato allies
as we speak.
Just more recto-cranial inversion from barBEARian

Third, we could get real battlefield testing against the cartels in Mexico. They are a far greater threat to most Americans than Iranians.
We will of course quibble about the imbalance of your assessment, but I do agree the Mexican cartels are a threat to the USA worthy of US military response.

---

Quit feeling and start thinking.

whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

---

I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.


Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

FLBear5630 said:

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historian said:

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Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Here is a scholarly account of the attacks on the USS Liberty by a respectable historian:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-uss-liberty-case-closed-quot

Regardless of what happened 57 years ago I'm unsure why it matters so much now. Few Americans hold a grudge against Japan for Pearl Harbor, the Bataan Death March, or anything else related to WWII (same with Germany) so hold a grudge for an event from decades past? Both governments have moved on and I'm not sure what is served by dwelling on it today. Like Israel, we are now allies with Japan & Germany. Heck, during the war we were allies with the Soviet Union! Geopolitics is messy.

---

Thank you. Pilots said it was misidentification. Either we go to war with Israel or you take the word of an Allie.

---

there are no permanent allies or enemies, just permanent interests. Israel furthers ours. So does Japan, Germany, Italy, etc..... So does Vietnam. So does Saudi Arabia and Turkey.

Not always easy or fun, but common interests have a way of forging a manageable relationship.

do not fuck with the mossad, exhibit a:

"we create a pretend world. we are a global production company. we write the screenplay. we're the directors. we're the producers. we're the main actors. the world is our stage."

holy fuck pic.twitter.com/QTrel4xQt1

— Sam Sheffer (@samsheffer) December 23, 2024

KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

---

whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

---

Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

---

When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

---

Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

---

Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

---

Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

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I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

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if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

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Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

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......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

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Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

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Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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KaiBear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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whiterock said:

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The_barBEARian said:

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sombear said:

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Realitybites said:

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Link to Interview

It is a given that most people haven't heard of the USS Liberty. It's something that is generally glossed over in history classes, if it is taught at all. Or at least it used to be that way.

The official explanation is it was a case of mistaken identity that led to the death of 34 American servicemen in an attack that lasted far longer - and with multiple waves - than a case of mistaken identity would allow for.

Friendly fire happens. Pat Tillman was the most recent well known case of this. The USS Liberty attack was absolutely not a case of friendly fire.

Go watch the video, and remember the casualties on that ship next time someone starts advocating for war in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or elsewhere.

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Most people haven't heard of it? It was covered in my rural Indiana high school and again in college.

It remains unclear exactly what happened and why.

But let's say the absolute worst is true. Why should that affect foreign policy 57 years later? We are strong allies with a number of former enemies.

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When is Israel going to pay back the trillion dollars the American tax payer has given them? We sure could use the money with our historic debt-to-GDP.

Allies pay back their debts.

Enemies do not.

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Israel just utterly destroyed two Iranian proxies which have killed thousands of Amcits and currently hold several hostage. That campaign also denied the Syrian regime of an ally it depended upon to defend the line of advance into Damascus, causing the fall of the Assad regime, an Iranian ally who has been on the State Sponsor of Terrorism...

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Sure...100% correct

But don't act like they did it for America

Israel acts to the benefit of Israel only.....

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Pre-1980 Iran was a very reliable proxy like Israel, too. A Shiite country surrounded by antagonistic Sunni countries, as well as a contiguous border with the USSR. Made them a very motivated ally. That is why Obama and Biden courted them so hard, foolishly hard. They wanted to flip them over to our side. And it was profoundly stupid, as the current regime is ideologically rooted in hatred of the West in general and USA in particular. As we have seen, no amount of inducements moved them an inch toward us and a lot more than that in the wrong direction.

.

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I can certainly see why having Iran as pro-American ally would be very beneficial (big country, lots of oil, strategic location)

Still not sure what Israel it's us in the region that we already do not have.

But that is an interesting point about Obama-Biden still trying to pull Iran into the American orbit….though that seems like a lost cause given Irans current rulers

---

if you can't see what Israel has done for us in the last 12 months, I can't help you. Biggest bang for the buck, ever.

---

Interesting perspective.

Honestly think it's the other way around.

Without US financial support and military assets in the region……it's highly unlikely the rest of the Muslin world world have sat back while Israel invaded Gaza, Lebanon and Syria.

Killing thousands in the process.

---

......in the process killing millions of Jews and empowering Hizballah & Hamas which of course have killed thousands of Americans over the decades and still hold US hostages, leaving a pro-Russian/pro-Iranian regime in place to threaten a Nato ally (Turkey).

How exactly is that preferrable to US interests than what has happened?
-total destruction of Hamas
-near total destruction of Hizballah
-fall of a major terror-sponsor regime in Damascus
-total collapse of decades of Iranian policy aimed at undermining US power around the world
-effective collapse of decades of Palestinian destabilization of the region.

---

Preferable to US intersects is to let Israel fight their own wars and finance their own issues.
which is another way of saying "let the islamic world destroy Israel."
That is a policy option which has not one keystroke of benefit to the USA.
How many Israeli migrants would you be willing to host? All 10m of them?

70 years of US involvement is more than enough.
It's been highly effective, arguably more so dollar for dollar, than any other ally relationship.

Focus on the needs of Americans right here at home.

---

Israel is important to Americans here at home, a strong majority of which support the existence of the Jewish state.

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70 years is enough period.

And you and I both know it's only gone on this long due to intense lobbying of our government officials.