Sam Lowry said:
Mothra said:
Bear8084 said:
Sam Lowry said:
Mothra said:
Sam Lowry said:
Mothra said:
Bear8084 said:
Mothra said:
Sam Lowry said:
Mothra said:
Sam Lowry said:
Mothra said:
Sam Lowry said:
Mothra said:
Sam Lowry said:
Mothra said:
Sam Lowry said:
Mothra said:
Sam Lowry said:
As Lev Golkin discussed in one article, Azov has a symbiotic relationship with Putin. Azov's existence allows Putin to justify his illegal invasion by claiming he is "de-Nazifying" Ukraine.
Ummm....
The source wasn't offered to justify Putin or support the legality of the invasion. In was offered in response to this post from you: "I'm curious if you could provide us with evidence that the Zelinsky government is filled with neo-Nazis. Otherwise, I'm calling bull**** on your Russian propaganda."
I gave you the evidence. Any substantive response?
It's your position that the article stated that the Zelensky government is filled with neo-Nazis? You serious Clark? Holy cow I don't think we read the same article. That article said nothing of the sort.
And if you recall, the quote above was in response to your position that Putin's stated justification for the invasion was valid. Are you now saying that Putin wasn't justified in invading Ukraine?
No, it was in response to my position that Zelensky's government is full of Nazis. When I showed you evidence, you grasped at the justification issue because it's the only point where you and the article seem to agree. I guess you're just going to ignore the rest of it.
Speaking of grasping, it truly is your position that the article supports your allegation that neo-Nazis are "running the show" in Ukraine? If so, wow. What an intellectually dishonest position. The article says nothing of the sort.
And again I ask, is it your position that Russia was not justified in invading Ukraine because neo-Nazis are running them show? Or is that too difficult question for you to answer?
No, that's not my position. The article certainly demonstrates that they are quite involved in running the show. Unlike in Russia, they are in positions of real power with real influence on policy.
"As soon as someone tries to fight actual Nazis..." Your words a page above. I know you prefer squishy and don't like to be nailed down, but were you not suggesting that Russia is fighting against Nazis?
The article laments that Azov fighters have been incorporated into the Ukrainian Armed Forces. It doesn't state, or even suggest, that Neo-Nazis are "running the show." That was a significant overstatement on your part, and that's being charitable.
The real question is, why are you arguing that position on this thread if you're now claiming that fighting Nazis is not a valid justification for the Russian invasion?
They are fighting Nazis, and if you read the article you should know it's more than just the army that has been infested. You asked whether it's my position that this is "not justified," and I said no. Don't blame me if your question was unclear.
I don't claim that Nazis are exclusively running the show. That would be an overstatement, but let's not fixate on the choice of words while ignoring the real point. The article names names and shows evidence of extensive influence, contrary to what you and others are insisting.
Have to say, it is rich that you are accusing someone of fixating on your own words when that's been your modus operandi for years. You said they are "running the show." That statement goes far beyond what the article states, as I think you well know.
To be clear, you believe that Putin was justified in ordering an invasion because there are Nazis in influential positions in the Ukrainian govt.? Is that correct?
I think it was a factor. It wouldn't necessarily justify it all by itself.
Thanks for the answer. What else justified the slaughter of Ukrainian civilians and attempting to topple the govt. of a sovereign country, in your mind?
Get ready for a regurgitation of the Putin interview.
Most likely. The real question is how does his positions on Ukraine fit within his stated belief in "just wars"?
It appears he abandons that theory altogether when it comes to countries other than the United States. I recall numerous discussions with Sam over the years about how the U.S. and its presidents were essentially war criminals for invading Iraq and Afghanistan in response to 9/11 for the stated goal of rooting out terrorists.
Yet, it's somehow ok when Putin carpet bombs Ukrainian cities because, Nazis and such. There seems to be a deep-seeded hatred for all things America that permeates his belief system.
I doubt that Putin is carpet-bombing Ukrainian cities.
I was looking for a paper I read a year or so ago on the just war topic, but the link was broken. The gist is that, while there is disagreement about preventive war, there's a good case for saying it can be justified in some circumstances. A book review here touches on some of the arguments.
So, Russia is justified in invading Ukraine and shelling its cities into oblivion then? How about Georgia? Was that a just war as well?
Tell us, is Putin also justified in killing off political enemies?
The major cities are still very much intact. The places you've seen shelled to oblivion are probably smaller towns and villages where most residents have fled and the army is trying to hold positions. I understand there's been a fair amount of damage to Donestsk, where Ukraine has been shelling civilians for years. But these are "in bello," not "ad bellum" issues. Two completely different categories.
I don't condone political imprisonment or assassination, but of course Zelensky does these things all the time. It's ironic that we care less about Americans dying in Ukrainian prison than we do about Russians dying in Russian prison.
Doubling down on more RU propaganda. Keep on bending over, Russian shill.
And no one cares about sex-pest RU propagandists except pro-RU idiots like you.
Unfortunately, it appears that propaganda has really done damage to conservatism. As a conservative, I am no fan of military interventionism, but I never thought I'd see the day that fellow conservatives are attempting to justify Russian invasions of other countries, slaughtering of its civilians, and political assassinations. Yet we have large swaths of purported conservatives on this board doing exactly that.
Scary times.
Anti-war conservatives aren't justifying Putin's crimes any more than we justified Saddam Hussein's. When this proxy war fails, you'll eventually figure out that you were lied to again.
I beg to differ. That's exactly what you're doing:
"I think Russia is justified in Ukraine for reasons that he explained in the interview."
Of course, if the U.S. were doing something similar, you'd be having a conniption.
The proxy war will fail. We shouldn't be over there, and we shouldn't be assisting. But that has nothing whatsoever to do with justifying Russian atrocities in Ukraine. You've bought the Russian propaganda, hook, line and sinker. It's disgusting for a guy who has held himself out to be an adherent of "Just Wars." What a joke that was. You are an adherent of Just Wars only as it applies to the U.S., and nothing more.
