Osodecentx said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Osodecentx said:

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Ghostrider said:

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Embarrassing for Baylor

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From National Review:
Harvard University's gender and sexuality department will offer a wide range of classes next semester: Gender as Technology; Gender and Sexuality in Korean Pop Culture; Feminism in the Age of Empire; Gender, Race and Poverty in the United States; Decolonization; Love's Labors Found: Uncovering Histories of Emotional Labor; and more.

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Because Harvard does it is that supposed to make it less embarrassing?

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2. It doesn't damage Baylor's reputation

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Reputation with whom?

Current academia that tend to views these kinds of ludicrous classes as normative?

Or with average people who see these classes as a waste of time if not possible contributing factor in the out of control costs of college education now days?

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Last time I checked, Baylor charged a flat rate per semester. Offering a 1 hour elective doesn't contribute to "out of control costs"…

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Which is why I specifically mentioned the perception/reputation among average people (future paying customers)

While it can't be cheap to keep someone like Professor Garrett around…if it costs extra money or not is not really the point.

How does having classes like this at Baylor increase and protect the Baylor academic reputation?

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With the right professor it can make a student more informed , well rounded & interesting. What is your vision of a liberal arts education?

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Does Professor Garrett going on social media to share his hectoring struggle session over JK Rowling's personal views seem like an informed well rounded discussion?

(That's even if we concede that a Harry Potter class is even needed at all at Baylor)

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No, professor is an embarrassment

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Osodecentx said:

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Ghostrider said:

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Embarrassing for Baylor

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From National Review:
Harvard University's gender and sexuality department will offer a wide range of classes next semester: Gender as Technology; Gender and Sexuality in Korean Pop Culture; Feminism in the Age of Empire; Gender, Race and Poverty in the United States; Decolonization; Love's Labors Found: Uncovering Histories of Emotional Labor; and more.

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Osodecentx said:

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Ghostrider said:

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Embarrassing for Baylor

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From National Review:
Harvard University's gender and sexuality department will offer a wide range of classes next semester: Gender as Technology; Gender and Sexuality in Korean Pop Culture; Feminism in the Age of Empire; Gender, Race and Poverty in the United States; Decolonization; Love's Labors Found: Uncovering Histories of Emotional Labor; and more.

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Redbrickbear said:

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Baylor's Greg Garrett calls James Baldwin "one of the most important theologians* of the 20th century."

*Garrett goes on to mention Baldwin was a gay apostate pic.twitter.com/6RTwJKag3L

— Woke Preacher Clips (@WokePreacherTV) April 16, 2024

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ursamajor said:

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As Osodecentx says, a liberal arts education alone justifies engaging with any piece of literature. I don't understand the idea of mocking a class you haven't taken.

And what of the fact that JK Rowling is one of the wealthiest people in Britain? Would you mock a class studying Sam Walton's entrepreneurial techniques or Warren Buffet's investment strategies or Steve Jobs' marketing?

Then how about secondary education majors? Should they not have the opportunity to study critically the most significant piece of youth literature in half a century before going to teach 12-18 year olds?

That doesn't even take into consideration that HP has many explicit Christian themes. It even culminates in a death/resurrection/sacrifice scene set at King's Cross. Not overly subtle.

Then what about the idea Garrett specifically addresses on twitter?: the ethical quandaries involved in the separation of the product from the producer, especially in a politically charged environment.

Lots of educational fodder there. Certainly not an embarrassment.

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ursamajor said:

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Or they're thoughtful people who contribute to the world, live happy lives, and like to read.

I do agree that college costs and the loan system are ridiculous, though.

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ursamajor said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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ursamajor said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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ursamajor said:

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As Osodecentx says, a liberal arts education alone justifies engaging with any piece of literature. I don't understand the idea of mocking a class you haven't taken.

And what of the fact that JK Rowling is one of the wealthiest people in Britain? Would you mock a class studying Sam Walton's entrepreneurial techniques or Warren Buffet's investment strategies or Steve Jobs' marketing?

Then how about secondary education majors? Should they not have the opportunity to study critically the most significant piece of youth literature in half a century before going to teach 12-18 year olds?

That doesn't even take into consideration that HP has many explicit Christian themes. It even culminates in a death/resurrection/sacrifice scene set at King's Cross. Not overly subtle.

Then what about the idea Garrett specifically addresses on twitter?: the ethical quandaries involved in the separation of the product from the producer, especially in a politically charged environment.

Lots of educational fodder there. Certainly not an embarrassment.

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The salient difference is that it would be highly doubtful that books about Sam Walton's entrepreneurial techniques, Warren Buffet's investment strategies, or Steve Jobs' marketing would be read by 5th graders.

I don't think I can name a single college course where the entire course text(s) had already been read by the students back when they were in elementary school.

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I'm not really sure that makes a difference. I'd read much of the Bible and certainly knew most of the stories by the time I was in 5th grade. I also think many 5th graders could grasp the basics of marketing and investing if they had any interest in them.

But that's also not really my point. There are many ways to view literature. I was simply naming some of those ways: as a good used for profit, as a tool for studying the sociology of teenagers, as a quasi-Christian narrative, as a focal point in the question of how to separate the art from the artist. Those are all real and relevant parts of life.

No one's suggesting majoring in Harry Potter, but one (optional) course? Why not?

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The comparison with the Bible is patently absurd. There's quite a bit of a difference between:

• an anthology of books written by about 40 divinely inspired authors over a 1,500 year period that details Hebrew history and the history of the Jewish religion as well as the rise of early Christianity, and which contains densely rich and beautifully poetic and symbolic language that is didactic, philosophical, and prophetic in nature, and which has been exquisitely preserved for millennia through countless number of copies and language translations, and which has been the sole source of inspiration and authority for at least three of the world's major religions, and over which entire conflicts and wars have been fought over throughout history, and about which entire schools, academic disciplines, and vocations have been built around, and for which countless martyrs have literally given their lives......
• .....and a series of fictional books aimed at children, written by a modern day feminist for immense profit.

And let's be honest - you didn't read the bible by the 5th grade. Even if you did, I highly doubt you really understood what you were reading. The bible wasn't written for 5th graders. It's too difficult even for many educated adults to read and understand fully. I suppose if you happen to be the one in 10 million children who is precocious enough to engage in readings of the bible or entrepreneurial, marketing, or financial strategies and truly understand them, still, this doesn't mean that a college course should be built around what is aimed at average, everyday children like the Harry Potter books.

Your points about how such literature can be utilized to derive college-level subject matter is valid, but it'd be better as part of a broader survey course involving a meta analysis of different literature instead of as a standalone focusing on one book. For example, "Children's Literature and the Sociology of Teenagers" or "Religious themes in Children/Adolescent Literature". Or, alternatively, a course on the author herself (Rowling), much like courses on Tolkien and C.S. Lewis. Except there, I'd argue that Rowling isn't anywhere near the status of those two so it'd be unjustifiable, but I guess that's a different argument.

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I think you probably got my point about the Bible: just because you read something when you were younger doesn't mean you got everything you could out of it.

Your point seems to be that everything there is to get out of HP you could get out of it in 5th grade. Or that it is only for "average, everyday" fifth graders.

But that's clearly not true. It's not written at a fifth grade level, it spans several thousand pages with intricate plot and character development, and it touches thoughtfully on major literary themes. Why not couple that with all the topics I named in my last post in a single course (instead of splitting them up into topical courses)? Plus, in a TikTok world, throw in a week studying how this one book series did what no other series has done: it became a massive cultural phenomenon for young people, centered on reading. Heck, I feel like we're halfway there to a syllabus already.

Making Money with Literature
Rowling vs Lewis/Tolkein
A Cultural Phenomenon of Reading
Sociology of Teenagers in Literature
Christian Themes in HP
The Product vs the Producer of an Item or Artwork
Children's Literature vs Adult Literary Fiction: Where to Draw the Line?

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ursamajor said:

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Or they're thoughtful people who contribute to the world, live happy lives, and like to read.

I do agree that college costs and the loan system are ridiculous, though.

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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ursamajor said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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ursamajor said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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ursamajor said:

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As Osodecentx says, a liberal arts education alone justifies engaging with any piece of literature. I don't understand the idea of mocking a class you haven't taken.

And what of the fact that JK Rowling is one of the wealthiest people in Britain? Would you mock a class studying Sam Walton's entrepreneurial techniques or Warren Buffet's investment strategies or Steve Jobs' marketing?

Then how about secondary education majors? Should they not have the opportunity to study critically the most significant piece of youth literature in half a century before going to teach 12-18 year olds?

That doesn't even take into consideration that HP has many explicit Christian themes. It even culminates in a death/resurrection/sacrifice scene set at King's Cross. Not overly subtle.

Then what about the idea Garrett specifically addresses on twitter?: the ethical quandaries involved in the separation of the product from the producer, especially in a politically charged environment.

Lots of educational fodder there. Certainly not an embarrassment.

---

The salient difference is that it would be highly doubtful that books about Sam Walton's entrepreneurial techniques, Warren Buffet's investment strategies, or Steve Jobs' marketing would be read by 5th graders.

I don't think I can name a single college course where the entire course text(s) had already been read by the students back when they were in elementary school.

---

I'm not really sure that makes a difference. I'd read much of the Bible and certainly knew most of the stories by the time I was in 5th grade. I also think many 5th graders could grasp the basics of marketing and investing if they had any interest in them.

But that's also not really my point. There are many ways to view literature. I was simply naming some of those ways: as a good used for profit, as a tool for studying the sociology of teenagers, as a quasi-Christian narrative, as a focal point in the question of how to separate the art from the artist. Those are all real and relevant parts of life.

No one's suggesting majoring in Harry Potter, but one (optional) course? Why not?

---

The comparison with the Bible is patently absurd. There's quite a bit of a difference between:

• an anthology of books written by about 40 divinely inspired authors over a 1,500 year period that details Hebrew history and the history of the Jewish religion as well as the rise of early Christianity, and which contains densely rich and beautifully poetic and symbolic language that is didactic, philosophical, and prophetic in nature, and which has been exquisitely preserved for millennia through countless number of copies and language translations, and which has been the sole source of inspiration and authority for at least three of the world's major religions, and over which entire conflicts and wars have been fought over throughout history, and about which entire schools, academic disciplines, and vocations have been built around, and for which countless martyrs have literally given their lives......
• .....and a series of fictional books aimed at children, written by a modern day feminist for immense profit.

And let's be honest - you didn't read the bible by the 5th grade. Even if you did, I highly doubt you really understood what you were reading. The bible wasn't written for 5th graders. It's too difficult even for many educated adults to read and understand fully. I suppose if you happen to be the one in 10 million children who is precocious enough to engage in readings of the bible or entrepreneurial, marketing, or financial strategies and truly understand them, still, this doesn't mean that a college course should be built around what is aimed at average, everyday children like the Harry Potter books.

Your points about how such literature can be utilized to derive college-level subject matter is valid, but it'd be better as part of a broader survey course involving a meta analysis of different literature instead of as a standalone focusing on one book. For example, "Children's Literature and the Sociology of Teenagers" or "Religious themes in Children/Adolescent Literature". Or, alternatively, a course on the author herself (Rowling), much like courses on Tolkien and C.S. Lewis. Except there, I'd argue that Rowling isn't anywhere near the status of those two so it'd be unjustifiable, but I guess that's a different argument.

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I think you probably got my point about the Bible: just because you read something when you were younger doesn't mean you got everything you could out of it.

Your point seems to be that everything there is to get out of HP you could get out of it in 5th grade. Or that it is only for "average, everyday" fifth graders.

But that's clearly not true. It's not written at a fifth grade level, it spans several thousand pages with intricate plot and character development, and it touches thoughtfully on major literary themes. Why not couple that with all the topics I named in my last post in a single course (instead of splitting them up into topical courses)? Plus, in a TikTok world, throw in a week studying how this one book series did what no other series has done: it became a massive cultural phenomenon for young people, centered on reading. Heck, I feel like we're halfway there to a syllabus already.

Making Money with Literature
Rowling vs Lewis/Tolkein
A Cultural Phenomenon of Reading
Sociology of Teenagers in Literature
Christian Themes in HP
The Product vs the Producer of an Item or Artwork
Children's Literature vs Adult Literary Fiction: Where to Draw the Line?

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What you're describing doesn't resemble a "Harry Potter course" so I'm not sure exactly what it is you're arguing.

And the point was not that 5th graders are the only target for Harry Potter, or that they are able to get everything out of it. But clearly the audience that is drawn to those books is virtually only adolescents and children. What do you expect from a story about 11 year olds at a magical witchcraft school?

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ursamajor said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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ursamajor said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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ursamajor said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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ursamajor said:

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As Osodecentx says, a liberal arts education alone justifies engaging with any piece of literature. I don't understand the idea of mocking a class you haven't taken.

And what of the fact that JK Rowling is one of the wealthiest people in Britain? Would you mock a class studying Sam Walton's entrepreneurial techniques or Warren Buffet's investment strategies or Steve Jobs' marketing?

Then how about secondary education majors? Should they not have the opportunity to study critically the most significant piece of youth literature in half a century before going to teach 12-18 year olds?

That doesn't even take into consideration that HP has many explicit Christian themes. It even culminates in a death/resurrection/sacrifice scene set at King's Cross. Not overly subtle.

Then what about the idea Garrett specifically addresses on twitter?: the ethical quandaries involved in the separation of the product from the producer, especially in a politically charged environment.

Lots of educational fodder there. Certainly not an embarrassment.

---

The salient difference is that it would be highly doubtful that books about Sam Walton's entrepreneurial techniques, Warren Buffet's investment strategies, or Steve Jobs' marketing would be read by 5th graders.

I don't think I can name a single college course where the entire course text(s) had already been read by the students back when they were in elementary school.

---

I'm not really sure that makes a difference. I'd read much of the Bible and certainly knew most of the stories by the time I was in 5th grade. I also think many 5th graders could grasp the basics of marketing and investing if they had any interest in them.

But that's also not really my point. There are many ways to view literature. I was simply naming some of those ways: as a good used for profit, as a tool for studying the sociology of teenagers, as a quasi-Christian narrative, as a focal point in the question of how to separate the art from the artist. Those are all real and relevant parts of life.

No one's suggesting majoring in Harry Potter, but one (optional) course? Why not?

---

The comparison with the Bible is patently absurd. There's quite a bit of a difference between:

• an anthology of books written by about 40 divinely inspired authors over a 1,500 year period that details Hebrew history and the history of the Jewish religion as well as the rise of early Christianity, and which contains densely rich and beautifully poetic and symbolic language that is didactic, philosophical, and prophetic in nature, and which has been exquisitely preserved for millennia through countless number of copies and language translations, and which has been the sole source of inspiration and authority for at least three of the world's major religions, and over which entire conflicts and wars have been fought over throughout history, and about which entire schools, academic disciplines, and vocations have been built around, and for which countless martyrs have literally given their lives......
• .....and a series of fictional books aimed at children, written by a modern day feminist for immense profit.

And let's be honest - you didn't read the bible by the 5th grade. Even if you did, I highly doubt you really understood what you were reading. The bible wasn't written for 5th graders. It's too difficult even for many educated adults to read and understand fully. I suppose if you happen to be the one in 10 million children who is precocious enough to engage in readings of the bible or entrepreneurial, marketing, or financial strategies and truly understand them, still, this doesn't mean that a college course should be built around what is aimed at average, everyday children like the Harry Potter books.

Your points about how such literature can be utilized to derive college-level subject matter is valid, but it'd be better as part of a broader survey course involving a meta analysis of different literature instead of as a standalone focusing on one book. For example, "Children's Literature and the Sociology of Teenagers" or "Religious themes in Children/Adolescent Literature". Or, alternatively, a course on the author herself (Rowling), much like courses on Tolkien and C.S. Lewis. Except there, I'd argue that Rowling isn't anywhere near the status of those two so it'd be unjustifiable, but I guess that's a different argument.

---

I think you probably got my point about the Bible: just because you read something when you were younger doesn't mean you got everything you could out of it.

Your point seems to be that everything there is to get out of HP you could get out of it in 5th grade. Or that it is only for "average, everyday" fifth graders.

But that's clearly not true. It's not written at a fifth grade level, it spans several thousand pages with intricate plot and character development, and it touches thoughtfully on major literary themes. Why not couple that with all the topics I named in my last post in a single course (instead of splitting them up into topical courses)? Plus, in a TikTok world, throw in a week studying how this one book series did what no other series has done: it became a massive cultural phenomenon for young people, centered on reading. Heck, I feel like we're halfway there to a syllabus already.

Making Money with Literature
Rowling vs Lewis/Tolkein
A Cultural Phenomenon of Reading
Sociology of Teenagers in Literature
Christian Themes in HP
The Product vs the Producer of an Item or Artwork
Children's Literature vs Adult Literary Fiction: Where to Draw the Line?

---

What you're describing doesn't resemble a "Harry Potter course" so I'm not sure exactly what it is you're arguing.

And the point was not that 5th graders are the only target for Harry Potter, or that they are able to get everything out of it. But clearly the audience that is drawn to those books is virtually only adolescents and children. What do you expect from a story about 11 year olds at a magical witchcraft school?

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What I'm describing is precisely a Harry Potter-style college course. The question is can you find educational value from HP worthy of college students. There are lots of ways to do that.

To your second point, clearly there are people older than adolescents who enjoy these books. Which is not to say that things targeted to adolescents cannot be worthy of study in their own right.

And we're talking about what, 20 of 14,000 undergraduates who are taking this course? There are very few topics that wouldn't be of interest and worthy of study for 20/14000.

At the end of the day I just don't understand the animosity towards this or any course.

Is anyone surprised that 20 students at a university would like HP? Is anyone surprised that a department would offer the occasional course designed to appeal to student interests? Did anyone on this board not take at least one class in college just because it seemed interesting or fun or less-intense?

If the objection is to costs of college, then I'm right there. But that's not the professors' fault. That's a systemic failure based on an impossible government program simultaneously being exploited by loan organizations.

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quash said:

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JK Rowling has some of the most well thought out and caring expressions of her views on transgenderism. Obviously I agree with her.

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