Tempus Edax Rerum said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Daveisabovereproach said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Daveisabovereproach said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Daveisabovereproach said:

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I'd rather have traffic cameras than get pulled over for doing 8 mph over on the freeway when at least once per week I see drugged out 20-year-olds doing 110+ in their Dodge Challengers weaving in and out of traffic on 75 through Dallas, forcing everyone to slam on their brakes. How come we never see those guys getting pulled over? The reason is because cops don't really want to enforce traffic laws, they want to hand out tickets to middle-class dudes with families and a mortgage that they know are just going to pay the stupid fine instead of taking a day off work to fight it so that the city can get an easy paycheck. Traffic cameras are police state BS, but the current paradigm also is BS

---

Problem is that we are not enforcing speeding and aggressive driving. The Highway Patrol and Traffic Units used to patrol for the safe operations of the roadway. Now, if it isn't a felony requiring Black Para-Military gear it isn't a big enough deal. This is that Spec Ops environment I was talking about, everyone is some Special Op or it has no value.

Talked to a Paramedic, said he was a Spec Ops Fire Dept Paramedic, doesn't do the common stuff anymore. Same with Police, they are all special units. Asked about traffic safety, not their units thing. They do the hardcore policing. Really? What happened to doing the job? Safety of 150k people a day on a corridor is not a big enough thing?

There are a lot of things that will drive you nuts if you look into them. Yet, we are supposed to go to an "Our Heros" luncheon. I don't attend anymore. I am more a fan of the guy running and moving stuff out of the travel lane in the Orange Vest or the Paramedic that works the normal shift every week or the RN that works the floors. I am sick of adrenaline junkies being the ones getting the credit when 90% of life is done by others every day.

---

It's the same thing with the military. Every single ex-military person you run into was a Navy SEAL or was protecting embassies and doing cool James Bond stuff. There are no cooks or people changing the oil on vehicles or things like that. I have a couple police friends at church. There is a major recruitment issue in most police departments. A lot of cops are cool with that, because it means lots of overtime. Wife and I briefly lived in Duncanville after we got married, and a local cop told us that there was a grand total of 7-8 cops on duty at any given time. That gave me cause for concern (if you know what Duncanville is like), and it caused me to start concealed carrying regularly. When you need them, police are conveniently going to be busy giving traffic tickets to dudes in mini vans, and as you mentioned, they're not going to be bothered to respond quickly unless it's a bank robbery or something high profile

---

Well, the number of people that die in traffic crashes. Look up the numbers, 43k in 2021, 1.1 million injured. It is not a small issue, yet giving that ticket or enforcing enough to keep speeds down can make a bigger difference in numbers than the "big stuff". But you can't prove a negative, slowing down that minivan may reduce those numbers. I see the numbers everyday, when we have a fatality it is a big deal. Most people don't think the minivan or the F150 with the 40 something golfer is worth pulling over.

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Yeah I totally get that, my point is that the argument could be made that speed cameras could free up cops to respond to other crimes. Speed cameras are also a black-and-white thing. If you're speeding, you're getting a ticket. It would eliminate the current paradigm we see of selective enforcement based on convenience etc that I've described in my other post.

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Speeding does not cause accidents. Driving slow in the left lane causes accidents.

Cops should ticket idiots not passing in the left lane and anyone driving in the middle lane driving slower than the speed limit.

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Actually it does, especially when speeders tailgate in horrendous driving conditions like rain, sleet, or snow.

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/car-accident-statistics/

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That's such a moronic response I'll just toast your aggy diploma and move on.

EatMoreSalmon said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Daveisabovereproach said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Daveisabovereproach said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Daveisabovereproach said:

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I'd rather have traffic cameras than get pulled over for doing 8 mph over on the freeway when at least once per week I see drugged out 20-year-olds doing 110+ in their Dodge Challengers weaving in and out of traffic on 75 through Dallas, forcing everyone to slam on their brakes. How come we never see those guys getting pulled over? The reason is because cops don't really want to enforce traffic laws, they want to hand out tickets to middle-class dudes with families and a mortgage that they know are just going to pay the stupid fine instead of taking a day off work to fight it so that the city can get an easy paycheck. Traffic cameras are police state BS, but the current paradigm also is BS

---

Problem is that we are not enforcing speeding and aggressive driving. The Highway Patrol and Traffic Units used to patrol for the safe operations of the roadway. Now, if it isn't a felony requiring Black Para-Military gear it isn't a big enough deal. This is that Spec Ops environment I was talking about, everyone is some Special Op or it has no value.

Talked to a Paramedic, said he was a Spec Ops Fire Dept Paramedic, doesn't do the common stuff anymore. Same with Police, they are all special units. Asked about traffic safety, not their units thing. They do the hardcore policing. Really? What happened to doing the job? Safety of 150k people a day on a corridor is not a big enough thing?

There are a lot of things that will drive you nuts if you look into them. Yet, we are supposed to go to an "Our Heros" luncheon. I don't attend anymore. I am more a fan of the guy running and moving stuff out of the travel lane in the Orange Vest or the Paramedic that works the normal shift every week or the RN that works the floors. I am sick of adrenaline junkies being the ones getting the credit when 90% of life is done by others every day.

---

It's the same thing with the military. Every single ex-military person you run into was a Navy SEAL or was protecting embassies and doing cool James Bond stuff. There are no cooks or people changing the oil on vehicles or things like that. I have a couple police friends at church. There is a major recruitment issue in most police departments. A lot of cops are cool with that, because it means lots of overtime. Wife and I briefly lived in Duncanville after we got married, and a local cop told us that there was a grand total of 7-8 cops on duty at any given time. That gave me cause for concern (if you know what Duncanville is like), and it caused me to start concealed carrying regularly. When you need them, police are conveniently going to be busy giving traffic tickets to dudes in mini vans, and as you mentioned, they're not going to be bothered to respond quickly unless it's a bank robbery or something high profile

---

Well, the number of people that die in traffic crashes. Look up the numbers, 43k in 2021, 1.1 million injured. It is not a small issue, yet giving that ticket or enforcing enough to keep speeds down can make a bigger difference in numbers than the "big stuff". But you can't prove a negative, slowing down that minivan may reduce those numbers. I see the numbers everyday, when we have a fatality it is a big deal. Most people don't think the minivan or the F150 with the 40 something golfer is worth pulling over.

---

Yeah I totally get that, my point is that the argument could be made that speed cameras could free up cops to respond to other crimes. Speed cameras are also a black-and-white thing. If you're speeding, you're getting a ticket. It would eliminate the current paradigm we see of selective enforcement based on convenience etc that I've described in my other post.

---

Speeding does not cause accidents. Driving slow in the left lane causes accidents.

Cops should ticket idiots not passing in the left lane and anyone driving in the middle lane driving slower than the speed limit.

---

Any speed too far away from the speed limit causes accidents. As someone else posted, it's the speed differential that causes accidents as drivers get into situations that are asking for too little response time.

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Incorrect.

Harrison Bergeron said:

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EatMoreSalmon said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Daveisabovereproach said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Daveisabovereproach said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Daveisabovereproach said:

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I'd rather have traffic cameras than get pulled over for doing 8 mph over on the freeway when at least once per week I see drugged out 20-year-olds doing 110+ in their Dodge Challengers weaving in and out of traffic on 75 through Dallas, forcing everyone to slam on their brakes. How come we never see those guys getting pulled over? The reason is because cops don't really want to enforce traffic laws, they want to hand out tickets to middle-class dudes with families and a mortgage that they know are just going to pay the stupid fine instead of taking a day off work to fight it so that the city can get an easy paycheck. Traffic cameras are police state BS, but the current paradigm also is BS

---

Problem is that we are not enforcing speeding and aggressive driving. The Highway Patrol and Traffic Units used to patrol for the safe operations of the roadway. Now, if it isn't a felony requiring Black Para-Military gear it isn't a big enough deal. This is that Spec Ops environment I was talking about, everyone is some Special Op or it has no value.

Talked to a Paramedic, said he was a Spec Ops Fire Dept Paramedic, doesn't do the common stuff anymore. Same with Police, they are all special units. Asked about traffic safety, not their units thing. They do the hardcore policing. Really? What happened to doing the job? Safety of 150k people a day on a corridor is not a big enough thing?

There are a lot of things that will drive you nuts if you look into them. Yet, we are supposed to go to an "Our Heros" luncheon. I don't attend anymore. I am more a fan of the guy running and moving stuff out of the travel lane in the Orange Vest or the Paramedic that works the normal shift every week or the RN that works the floors. I am sick of adrenaline junkies being the ones getting the credit when 90% of life is done by others every day.

---

It's the same thing with the military. Every single ex-military person you run into was a Navy SEAL or was protecting embassies and doing cool James Bond stuff. There are no cooks or people changing the oil on vehicles or things like that. I have a couple police friends at church. There is a major recruitment issue in most police departments. A lot of cops are cool with that, because it means lots of overtime. Wife and I briefly lived in Duncanville after we got married, and a local cop told us that there was a grand total of 7-8 cops on duty at any given time. That gave me cause for concern (if you know what Duncanville is like), and it caused me to start concealed carrying regularly. When you need them, police are conveniently going to be busy giving traffic tickets to dudes in mini vans, and as you mentioned, they're not going to be bothered to respond quickly unless it's a bank robbery or something high profile

---

Well, the number of people that die in traffic crashes. Look up the numbers, 43k in 2021, 1.1 million injured. It is not a small issue, yet giving that ticket or enforcing enough to keep speeds down can make a bigger difference in numbers than the "big stuff". But you can't prove a negative, slowing down that minivan may reduce those numbers. I see the numbers everyday, when we have a fatality it is a big deal. Most people don't think the minivan or the F150 with the 40 something golfer is worth pulling over.

---

Yeah I totally get that, my point is that the argument could be made that speed cameras could free up cops to respond to other crimes. Speed cameras are also a black-and-white thing. If you're speeding, you're getting a ticket. It would eliminate the current paradigm we see of selective enforcement based on convenience etc that I've described in my other post.

---

Speeding does not cause accidents. Driving slow in the left lane causes accidents.

Cops should ticket idiots not passing in the left lane and anyone driving in the middle lane driving slower than the speed limit.

---

Any speed too far away from the speed limit causes accidents. As someone else posted, it's the speed differential that causes accidents as drivers get into situations that are asking for too little response time.

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Incorrect.

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I think you need to offer some proof.

ALL accidents are caused by either:

(1) A vehicle finding itself in a situation where no escape tactic from a collision is available.

(2) A vehicle finding itself in a situation where an escape tactic from the collision is available but the time to identify and execute that tactic is inadequate.

#2 is how higher speeds contribute to collisions.

Harrison Bergeron said:

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Tempus Edax Rerum said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Daveisabovereproach said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Daveisabovereproach said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Daveisabovereproach said:

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I'd rather have traffic cameras than get pulled over for doing 8 mph over on the freeway when at least once per week I see drugged out 20-year-olds doing 110+ in their Dodge Challengers weaving in and out of traffic on 75 through Dallas, forcing everyone to slam on their brakes. How come we never see those guys getting pulled over? The reason is because cops don't really want to enforce traffic laws, they want to hand out tickets to middle-class dudes with families and a mortgage that they know are just going to pay the stupid fine instead of taking a day off work to fight it so that the city can get an easy paycheck. Traffic cameras are police state BS, but the current paradigm also is BS

---

Problem is that we are not enforcing speeding and aggressive driving. The Highway Patrol and Traffic Units used to patrol for the safe operations of the roadway. Now, if it isn't a felony requiring Black Para-Military gear it isn't a big enough deal. This is that Spec Ops environment I was talking about, everyone is some Special Op or it has no value.

Talked to a Paramedic, said he was a Spec Ops Fire Dept Paramedic, doesn't do the common stuff anymore. Same with Police, they are all special units. Asked about traffic safety, not their units thing. They do the hardcore policing. Really? What happened to doing the job? Safety of 150k people a day on a corridor is not a big enough thing?

There are a lot of things that will drive you nuts if you look into them. Yet, we are supposed to go to an "Our Heros" luncheon. I don't attend anymore. I am more a fan of the guy running and moving stuff out of the travel lane in the Orange Vest or the Paramedic that works the normal shift every week or the RN that works the floors. I am sick of adrenaline junkies being the ones getting the credit when 90% of life is done by others every day.

---

It's the same thing with the military. Every single ex-military person you run into was a Navy SEAL or was protecting embassies and doing cool James Bond stuff. There are no cooks or people changing the oil on vehicles or things like that. I have a couple police friends at church. There is a major recruitment issue in most police departments. A lot of cops are cool with that, because it means lots of overtime. Wife and I briefly lived in Duncanville after we got married, and a local cop told us that there was a grand total of 7-8 cops on duty at any given time. That gave me cause for concern (if you know what Duncanville is like), and it caused me to start concealed carrying regularly. When you need them, police are conveniently going to be busy giving traffic tickets to dudes in mini vans, and as you mentioned, they're not going to be bothered to respond quickly unless it's a bank robbery or something high profile

---

Well, the number of people that die in traffic crashes. Look up the numbers, 43k in 2021, 1.1 million injured. It is not a small issue, yet giving that ticket or enforcing enough to keep speeds down can make a bigger difference in numbers than the "big stuff". But you can't prove a negative, slowing down that minivan may reduce those numbers. I see the numbers everyday, when we have a fatality it is a big deal. Most people don't think the minivan or the F150 with the 40 something golfer is worth pulling over.

---

Yeah I totally get that, my point is that the argument could be made that speed cameras could free up cops to respond to other crimes. Speed cameras are also a black-and-white thing. If you're speeding, you're getting a ticket. It would eliminate the current paradigm we see of selective enforcement based on convenience etc that I've described in my other post.

---

Speeding does not cause accidents. Driving slow in the left lane causes accidents.

Cops should ticket idiots not passing in the left lane and anyone driving in the middle lane driving slower than the speed limit.

---

Actually it does, especially when speeders tailgate in horrendous driving conditions like rain, sleet, or snow.

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/car-accident-statistics/

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That's such a moronic response I'll just toast your aggy diploma and move on.

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Actually, it is very well documented. But, don't let the data influence your view. Because don't tell us, you are such a talented driver the dats doesn't apply to you. You are able to outperform any documented outcome and you would walk away from a 90 mph crash.

It is people that think like this that make the roads unsafe, speed limits don't matter, they are better drivers than the rules and everyone else around them is wrong. Even though, they are the ones breaking the law exceeding the speed limit by 20 mph.

Harrison Bergeron said:

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EatMoreSalmon said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Daveisabovereproach said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Daveisabovereproach said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

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Daveisabovereproach said:

---

I'd rather have traffic cameras than get pulled over for doing 8 mph over on the freeway when at least once per week I see drugged out 20-year-olds doing 110+ in their Dodge Challengers weaving in and out of traffic on 75 through Dallas, forcing everyone to slam on their brakes. How come we never see those guys getting pulled over? The reason is because cops don't really want to enforce traffic laws, they want to hand out tickets to middle-class dudes with families and a mortgage that they know are just going to pay the stupid fine instead of taking a day off work to fight it so that the city can get an easy paycheck. Traffic cameras are police state BS, but the current paradigm also is BS

---

Problem is that we are not enforcing speeding and aggressive driving. The Highway Patrol and Traffic Units used to patrol for the safe operations of the roadway. Now, if it isn't a felony requiring Black Para-Military gear it isn't a big enough deal. This is that Spec Ops environment I was talking about, everyone is some Special Op or it has no value.

Talked to a Paramedic, said he was a Spec Ops Fire Dept Paramedic, doesn't do the common stuff anymore. Same with Police, they are all special units. Asked about traffic safety, not their units thing. They do the hardcore policing. Really? What happened to doing the job? Safety of 150k people a day on a corridor is not a big enough thing?

There are a lot of things that will drive you nuts if you look into them. Yet, we are supposed to go to an "Our Heros" luncheon. I don't attend anymore. I am more a fan of the guy running and moving stuff out of the travel lane in the Orange Vest or the Paramedic that works the normal shift every week or the RN that works the floors. I am sick of adrenaline junkies being the ones getting the credit when 90% of life is done by others every day.

---

It's the same thing with the military. Every single ex-military person you run into was a Navy SEAL or was protecting embassies and doing cool James Bond stuff. There are no cooks or people changing the oil on vehicles or things like that. I have a couple police friends at church. There is a major recruitment issue in most police departments. A lot of cops are cool with that, because it means lots of overtime. Wife and I briefly lived in Duncanville after we got married, and a local cop told us that there was a grand total of 7-8 cops on duty at any given time. That gave me cause for concern (if you know what Duncanville is like), and it caused me to start concealed carrying regularly. When you need them, police are conveniently going to be busy giving traffic tickets to dudes in mini vans, and as you mentioned, they're not going to be bothered to respond quickly unless it's a bank robbery or something high profile

---

Well, the number of people that die in traffic crashes. Look up the numbers, 43k in 2021, 1.1 million injured. It is not a small issue, yet giving that ticket or enforcing enough to keep speeds down can make a bigger difference in numbers than the "big stuff". But you can't prove a negative, slowing down that minivan may reduce those numbers. I see the numbers everyday, when we have a fatality it is a big deal. Most people don't think the minivan or the F150 with the 40 something golfer is worth pulling over.

---

Yeah I totally get that, my point is that the argument could be made that speed cameras could free up cops to respond to other crimes. Speed cameras are also a black-and-white thing. If you're speeding, you're getting a ticket. It would eliminate the current paradigm we see of selective enforcement based on convenience etc that I've described in my other post.

---

Speeding does not cause accidents. Driving slow in the left lane causes accidents.

Cops should ticket idiots not passing in the left lane and anyone driving in the middle lane driving slower than the speed limit.

---

Any speed too far away from the speed limit causes accidents. As someone else posted, it's the speed differential that causes accidents as drivers get into situations that are asking for too little response time.

---

Incorrect.

---

Yeah the guy that posted that originally was just an instructor for Porsche Club, Ferrari Club, SCCA, CVAR and has, literally, thousands of track hours.

The most dangerous condition is two vehicles; one moving too slowly and the other moving too fast. Two cars going 100 are infinitely safer than one going 115 and the either going 85. Most drivers suck as processing how much time is needed to slow down, avoid accidents obstructions, etc.

This is an especially large problem on a public roadway where other drivers don't know your intentions. You see this all the time as someone in the left lane tries to move right to avoid a car coming up quickly and both cars are now dancing to avoid each other.

I would make you a deal though. I'll get the speeders to slow down when you get the guy who's 87 and should be on the road to stop being a rolling road block…or the people who are going 60 to at least get to 70 so the middle lane is not a constant jackrabbit.

nein51 said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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EatMoreSalmon said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Daveisabovereproach said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Daveisabovereproach said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

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Daveisabovereproach said:

---

I'd rather have traffic cameras than get pulled over for doing 8 mph over on the freeway when at least once per week I see drugged out 20-year-olds doing 110+ in their Dodge Challengers weaving in and out of traffic on 75 through Dallas, forcing everyone to slam on their brakes. How come we never see those guys getting pulled over? The reason is because cops don't really want to enforce traffic laws, they want to hand out tickets to middle-class dudes with families and a mortgage that they know are just going to pay the stupid fine instead of taking a day off work to fight it so that the city can get an easy paycheck. Traffic cameras are police state BS, but the current paradigm also is BS

---

Problem is that we are not enforcing speeding and aggressive driving. The Highway Patrol and Traffic Units used to patrol for the safe operations of the roadway. Now, if it isn't a felony requiring Black Para-Military gear it isn't a big enough deal. This is that Spec Ops environment I was talking about, everyone is some Special Op or it has no value.

Talked to a Paramedic, said he was a Spec Ops Fire Dept Paramedic, doesn't do the common stuff anymore. Same with Police, they are all special units. Asked about traffic safety, not their units thing. They do the hardcore policing. Really? What happened to doing the job? Safety of 150k people a day on a corridor is not a big enough thing?

There are a lot of things that will drive you nuts if you look into them. Yet, we are supposed to go to an "Our Heros" luncheon. I don't attend anymore. I am more a fan of the guy running and moving stuff out of the travel lane in the Orange Vest or the Paramedic that works the normal shift every week or the RN that works the floors. I am sick of adrenaline junkies being the ones getting the credit when 90% of life is done by others every day.

---

It's the same thing with the military. Every single ex-military person you run into was a Navy SEAL or was protecting embassies and doing cool James Bond stuff. There are no cooks or people changing the oil on vehicles or things like that. I have a couple police friends at church. There is a major recruitment issue in most police departments. A lot of cops are cool with that, because it means lots of overtime. Wife and I briefly lived in Duncanville after we got married, and a local cop told us that there was a grand total of 7-8 cops on duty at any given time. That gave me cause for concern (if you know what Duncanville is like), and it caused me to start concealed carrying regularly. When you need them, police are conveniently going to be busy giving traffic tickets to dudes in mini vans, and as you mentioned, they're not going to be bothered to respond quickly unless it's a bank robbery or something high profile

---

Well, the number of people that die in traffic crashes. Look up the numbers, 43k in 2021, 1.1 million injured. It is not a small issue, yet giving that ticket or enforcing enough to keep speeds down can make a bigger difference in numbers than the "big stuff". But you can't prove a negative, slowing down that minivan may reduce those numbers. I see the numbers everyday, when we have a fatality it is a big deal. Most people don't think the minivan or the F150 with the 40 something golfer is worth pulling over.

---

Yeah I totally get that, my point is that the argument could be made that speed cameras could free up cops to respond to other crimes. Speed cameras are also a black-and-white thing. If you're speeding, you're getting a ticket. It would eliminate the current paradigm we see of selective enforcement based on convenience etc that I've described in my other post.

---

Speeding does not cause accidents. Driving slow in the left lane causes accidents.

Cops should ticket idiots not passing in the left lane and anyone driving in the middle lane driving slower than the speed limit.

---

Any speed too far away from the speed limit causes accidents. As someone else posted, it's the speed differential that causes accidents as drivers get into situations that are asking for too little response time.

---

Incorrect.

---

Yeah the guy that posted that originally was just an instructor for Porsche Club, Ferrari Club, SCCA, CVAR and has, literally, thousands of track hours.

The most dangerous condition is two vehicles; one moving too slowly and the other moving too fast. Two cars going 100 are infinitely safer than one going 115 and the either going 85. Most drivers suck as processing how much time is needed to slow down, avoid accidents obstructions, etc.

This is an especially large problem on a public roadway where other drivers don't know your intentions. You see this all the time as someone in the left lane tries to move right to avoid a car coming up quickly and both cars are now dancing to avoid each other.

I would make you a deal though. I'll get the speeders to slow down when you get the guy who's 87 and should be on the road to stop being a rolling road block…or the people who are going 60 to at least get to 70 so the middle lane is not a constant jackrabbit.

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Part of the problem is the speed differential, as you say. The other is the drivers you say are doing 87 are going 17 mph over the speed limit (illegal). The rolling block going 65 is 5 mph under the speed limit (legal). What they are condoning is making the rules for those breaking the law.

So, to stretch this to something we all agree on, how is this different than making the rules for illegal entry to the US? Making the rules fit the millions breaking the law to enter the US and viewing those that want to force they follow the slow legal immigration path? They don't want to slow down and view those pesky laws as something they don't really have to follow because they are not enforced. So, the real problem are those few that actually follow the legal immigration laws. Let's just pick and choose what we follow and change the rest to what we want. Dangerous slope...

We already pick and choose which laws we follow. You probably break a ton of laws every day either knowingly or not.

So you strictly enforce 70mph limits. You giving a ticket to a guy going 72 in the passing lane? If not 72, why not? There is a minimum speed limit that's never enforced…

nein51 said:

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We already pick and choose which laws we follow. You probably break a ton of laws every day either knowingly or not.

So you strictly enforce 70mph limits. You giving a ticket to a guy going 72 in the passing lane? If not 72, why not? There is a minimum speed limit that's never enforced…

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Depends. I got one for going 72 in a 70 in Tallahassee, FL on I10. Went to court and said I was passing. The Judges response was that 72 is not 70 and the FHP Radar was accurate, so $150 ticket. Admitting your breaking the law, but shouldn't be fined is not a defense.

Actually, the minimum is enforced, it is 45 mph. These speed limits are not just randomly picked, they are based on Traffic Engineering. Here are the three approaches. If the speed limit needs to change, there is a lot of engineering behind it to ensure safe operation. That may not align with how fast some may want to drive. There is more to it than some guys who want to play Fast and Furious in real life.

The FHWA Methods and Practices for Setting Speed Limits: An Informational Report describes three approaches for setting speed limits.
Engineering Approach - A two-step process where a base speed limit is set according to the 85th percentile speed, the design speed for the road, or other conditions. This base speed limit is adjusted according to traffic and infrastructure conditions such as pedestrian use, median presence, etc. Within the engineering approach there are two approaches: The Operating Speed Method is set within 5 mph of the 85th percentile speed determined from speed surveys and then appropriate changes plus or minus are made based on other considerations. Under the Road Risk Method, the level of roadside development and the function of a road are the primary determinants of the appropriate speed limit.

Expert System Approach - Speed limits are suggested by a computer program that uses knowledge and inference procedures that simulate the judgment and behavior of speed limit experts. Typically, this system contains a knowledge base containing accumulated knowledge and a set of rules for applying the knowledge to each particular situation. The FHWA developed USLIMITS2 is an expert system. USLIMITS2 is designed to determine speed limits in speed zones on all types of road, from rural two-lane segments to urban freeway segments. Based on input from the user, USLIMITS2 uses a decision algorithm to advise the user of the speed limit for the specific road section. Input into US LIMITS2 includes: surrounding development; access points; road function; road characteristics (e.g., divided or undivided, number of lanes, annual average daily traffic (AADT), roadside hazards, and section length) or freeway characteristics (e.g., number of interchanges, section length, and AADT); existing vehicle operating speeds (50th and 85th percentile); pedestrian activity; crash history; and special conditions (e.g., adverse alignment, transition zones, and parking). There is current industry discussion that an expert system, such as USLIMITS2, should be used to validate an engineering approach to speed limits.

Safe System Approach (Mostly Urban Areas with Ped Interaction)- The safe systems approach emphasizes that some degree of roadway user error will always occur, and that such errors should not result in a fatality or serious injury. With this approach, speed limits are set according to the crash types that are likely to occur, the impact forces that result, and the human body's tolerance to withstand these forces. In the safe system approach, the primary criterion is the safety of all road users, including pedestrians and bicyclists that are more vulnerable to injury and death when hit by a vehicle. Consequently, this approach usually results in lower speed limits than those that would be determined by the engineering and expert system approaches. Tactics such as traffic calming, physical separation of roadway users, and treatments that enhance visibility of vulnerable users to give drivers greater reaction time are safe systems. A safe systems approach requires a holistic planning of the roads and interconnected factors provide for optimal safety. The safe systems approach is an ideal approach for many urban roads and to strengthen protection for vulnerable users. (Typically, not limited access)

nein51 said:

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So your argument is that someone going 45 in the right hand lane is better than 85 in the left hand lane?

Also I would have lost my ever loving mind for 72 in a 70. Your speedometer isn't even calibrated well enough to make that call. + or - 5% at 50 mph is considered a standard. You may not have even been speeding and there's definitely no way they could be sure you knew.

Entire argument is probably moot though. It's not going to get fixed and "fixed" has many different definitions anyhow.

It's a beautiful day out. The sun is shining. I'm going to remember who gave me freedom to lie naked on the beach and go back to the view.

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With you. Enjoy the beach. Just got back from Hawaii, beaches are a great thing...

By the way, it was a plane ticket. Not sure radar entered in as point a to point b in x time is x mph...

nein51 said:

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So your argument is that someone going 45 in the right hand lane is better than 85 in the left hand lane?

Also I would have lost my ever loving mind for 72 in a 70. Your speedometer isn't even calibrated well enough to make that call. + or - 5% at 50 mph is considered a standard. You may not have even been speeding and there's definitely no way they could be sure you knew.

Entire argument is probably moot though. It's not going to get fixed and "fixed" has many different definitions anyhow.

It's a beautiful day out. The sun is shining. I'm going to remember who gave me freedom to lie naked on the beach and go back to the view.

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I STRONGLY recommend sunscreen if you are necked.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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nein51 said:

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So your argument is that someone going 45 in the right hand lane is better than 85 in the left hand lane?

Also I would have lost my ever loving mind for 72 in a 70. Your speedometer isn't even calibrated well enough to make that call. + or - 5% at 50 mph is considered a standard. You may not have even been speeding and there's definitely no way they could be sure you knew.

Entire argument is probably moot though. It's not going to get fixed and "fixed" has many different definitions anyhow.

It's a beautiful day out. The sun is shining. I'm going to remember who gave me freedom to lie naked on the beach and go back to the view.

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I STRONGLY recommend sunscreen if you are necked.

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That's a lesson you learn early in the naked beach game. Your arms may not burn fast but those parts that don't see the sun much…ooof

Guy Noir said:

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The fallacy of expecting slower cars to move out of the left lane for speeders is that. Cars that travel the speed limit move to the center or right lane get stuck behind cars and trucks going below the speed limit. The car then must wait for the left lane to clear enough to get back in the passing lane. If a person wishes to speed then they should not expect anyone going the speed limit to be required to move for them. The speed limit is the top speed by definition.

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You have a logic problem here. If you are in the left lane and passing cars in the middle lane then you're cool. No issue.

If you are sitting in the left lane and not passing cars in the middle lane, you are impeding traffic.

Nobody deputized anyone to use their personal vehicle to enforce traffic laws.

Edmond Bear said:

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Guy Noir said:

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The fallacy of expecting slower cars to move out of the left lane for speeders is that. Cars that travel the speed limit move to the center or right lane get stuck behind cars and trucks going below the speed limit. The car then must wait for the left lane to clear enough to get back in the passing lane. If a person wishes to speed then they should not expect anyone going the speed limit to be required to move for them. The speed limit is the top speed by definition.

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You have a logic problem here. If you are in the left lane and passing cars in the middle lane then you're cool. No issue.

If you are sitting in the left lane and not passing cars in the middle lane, you are impeding traffic.

Nobody deputized anyone to use their personal vehicle to enforce traffic laws.

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So, in theory if we are all going the top legal speed in the left lane, we are passing the slower traffic to the right. It is called speed harmonization; we can increase the capacity of a lane by up to 30% if everyone goes the speed limit. It is a Traffic Demand Mgt strategy and we may actually see it in the future where your car dictates what speed and follows closer. (That will go over like a turd in a punchbowl).

The other point to keep in mind, an interstate lane can handle about 2200 vehicles per hour, so for a 8 lane we have a capacity of 17600 per hour. Using your "passing lane logic" that capacity is really 15400 because the right lane is for passing only and needs to stay open so you can zoom by the dangerous slow people.

So, when we are designing roads we really need to build 10 lanes to get the 17600 capacity we need to handle demand. The cost of adding an additional lane is anywhere from 2M to 10M (depending on if we need structure and ROW) per lane mile. So, my question to the same Conservatives that question all expenditures as irresponsible Govt spending, is it responsible spending to add a "passing lane" that add 100M to a 50 mile freeway so you can pass and disobey the speed limit? Wouldn't the Conservative thing to do be to obey the speed limit, use all the lanes and god forbid "zipper" (means letting people in at ramps even if the cut) so that we can build that 8 lane roadway for less?

FLBear5630 said:

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So, in theory if we are all going the top legal speed in the left lane, we are passing the slower traffic to the right. It is called speed harmonization

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I already do this with Adaptive Cruise Control. The car keeps me X lengths from the car in front of me.

From Edmond to Waco (4 1/2) hours, I barely touch the gas or brakes.

We are going to see more of it. The big question is will they let automated go to the natural conclusion, the road controlling the vehicle by telling the car what speed and the best route? We are starting to see it already with lane choice.

So my next question is will they let the system take control of the car? Or will the go Big Brother?

There are a lot of factors in all this, I'd like to add my own thoughts.

A couple years ago, I was in western Pennsylvania on business when I noticed I was the only driver paying any attention to either the speed limit, yield signs, red lights or the cops. Good thing too, because I drove about 300 miles over a couple days and saw a lot of unusual conditions, like ice, fog and various wildlife like deer crossing the road (even a couple elk!).

It reminded me that drivers develop a sense of road conditions and what is appropriate. The governments like to standardize speed limits, but even on the same road, say I-45, there are places where 50 mph may be too fast to be safe and others where 85 mph is not dangerous if there is no rain or obscurity and the flow of traffic is consistent with that speed. Living in Houston, I know from experience that HPD will pull you over in certain areas but not others, the Constables don't care what speed you drive, just whether you are being dangerous to other drivers, the Sheriffs are wild cards and METRO will pull people over apparently at random. It means you need to understand where you are, in terms of LE as much as road conditions.

Also, way too many people drive with poor tire tread, crappy wipers, and have the judgment skills of Charlie Sheen.

Edmond Bear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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So, in theory if we are all going the top legal speed in the left lane, we are passing the slower traffic to the right. It is called speed harmonization

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I already do this with Adaptive Cruise Control. The car keeps me X lengths from the car in front of me.

From Edmond to Waco (4 1/2) hours, I barely touch the gas or brakes.

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Adaptive cruise is fing awful. No idea how people use it. You start thinking man I feel like I'm going slow. Look down and find you are because the dude in front of you is going 10mph under.

Also here is what happens when just one person doesn't go the speed limit. Traffic jam with no other reason. This is a Japanese study showing the mathematical flow of traffic dynamics.

El Oso said:

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A point of order.

The sign on the highway says SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT.

It says nothing about the speed limit, so if the car behind you is approaching you at a rate of speed faster than yours, move over.

The other one says LEFT LANE FOR PASSING ONLY.

So once you have passed cars, move back over. And while this sign says nothing about speeding either, it is infuriating when the passer is going 71 and the passee is going 70.

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The problem is the speed limit is 70
The right hand lane is going 65
The middle lane is going 69
The left lane is going 80

So if you move over you're just immediately passing someone and it's a constant game of move over and pass, move over and pass.

None of that is as annoying as two rigs trying to pass going 2mph faster to see who has the bigger 15 liter.

Slower traffic keep right. Full stop.

And the speed limit is 75 unless you're in a city.

nein51 said:

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El Oso said:

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A point of order.

The sign on the highway says SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT.

It says nothing about the speed limit, so if the car behind you is approaching you at a rate of speed faster than yours, move over.

The other one says LEFT LANE FOR PASSING ONLY.

So once you have passed cars, move back over. And while this sign says nothing about speeding either, it is infuriating when the passer is going 71 and the passee is going 70.

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The problem is the speed limit is 70
The right hand lane is going 65
The middle lane is going 69
The left lane is going 80

So if you move over you're just immediately passing someone and it's a constant game of move over and pass, move over and pass.

None of that is as annoying as two rigs trying to pass going 2mph faster to see who has the bigger 15 liter.

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I mentioned 'flow of traffic' and I think it applied here as well.

Passing should reasonably mean that you would have to reduce your speed by 5 mph or more to stay behind the traffic in front of you, while there is an open lane to pass the cars in your present lane.

If you only have to slow down a little, passing would not make sense. If there is a lot of traffic to your left, wait for an opening, for crying out loud. And if your ego gets involved, you are wrong, period.

El Oso said:

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Slower traffic keep right. Full stop.

And the speed limit is 75 unless you're in a city.

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You have not been on I-10 near San Antonio or west thereof, I perceive.

nein51 said:

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Edmond Bear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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So, in theory if we are all going the top legal speed in the left lane, we are passing the slower traffic to the right. It is called speed harmonization

---

I already do this with Adaptive Cruise Control. The car keeps me X lengths from the car in front of me.

From Edmond to Waco (4 1/2) hours, I barely touch the gas or brakes.

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Adaptive cruise is fing awful. No idea how people use it. You start thinking man I feel like I'm going slow. Look down and find you are because the dude in front of you is going 10mph under.

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Adaptive Cruise Control is amazing. I'm not worn out anymore just driving to Waco.

When I find myself going 10 under because of the guy in front of me, I just pass them….unless the self-deputized have decided to be aholes and block the left lane.

Wait until it needs a module, a bumper cover, a relearn on the radar. You won't love it then.

Edmond Bear said:

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Guy Noir said:

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The fallacy of expecting slower cars to move out of the left lane for speeders is that. Cars that travel the speed limit move to the center or right lane get stuck behind cars and trucks going below the speed limit. The car then must wait for the left lane to clear enough to get back in the passing lane. If a person wishes to speed then they should not expect anyone going the speed limit to be required to move for them. The speed limit is the top speed by definition.

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You have a logic problem here. If you are in the left lane and passing cars in the middle lane then you're cool. No issue.

If you are sitting in the left lane and not passing cars in the middle lane, you are impeding traffic.

Nobody deputized anyone to use their personal vehicle to enforce traffic laws.

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I understand the point and I agree. However, I get frustrated by cars that pull up very close in my rear and are pushing me to pass a long stream of cars in the middle lane much faster than I desire to go. I am usually going 70 + or faster. I often speed up just to get out of the way sooner for a car that is tailgating me.

I do not camp in the passing lane to try to enforce the speed limit laws.

Edmond Bear said:

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Guy Noir said:

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The fallacy of expecting slower cars to move out of the left lane for speeders is that. Cars that travel the speed limit move to the center or right lane get stuck behind cars and trucks going below the speed limit. The car then must wait for the left lane to clear enough to get back in the passing lane. If a person wishes to speed then they should not expect anyone going the speed limit to be required to move for them. The speed limit is the top speed by definition.

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You have a logic problem here. If you are in the left lane and passing cars in the middle lane then you're cool. No issue.

If you are sitting in the left lane and not passing cars in the middle lane, you are impeding traffic.

Nobody deputized anyone to use their personal vehicle to enforce traffic laws.

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Deputized?

I am losing you. How are they acting like a LEO? Are they pulling you over? Never saw that before!

FLBear5630 said:

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Edmond Bear said:

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Guy Noir said:

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The fallacy of expecting slower cars to move out of the left lane for speeders is that. Cars that travel the speed limit move to the center or right lane get stuck behind cars and trucks going below the speed limit. The car then must wait for the left lane to clear enough to get back in the passing lane. If a person wishes to speed then they should not expect anyone going the speed limit to be required to move for them. The speed limit is the top speed by definition.

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You have a logic problem here. If you are in the left lane and passing cars in the middle lane then you're cool. No issue.

If you are sitting in the left lane and not passing cars in the middle lane, you are impeding traffic.

Nobody deputized anyone to use their personal vehicle to enforce traffic laws.

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Deputized?

I am losing you. How are they acting like a LEO? Are they pulling you over? Never saw that before!

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It's a metaphor. They are using their personal vehicles to enforce a law.

Edmond Bear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Edmond Bear said:

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Guy Noir said:

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The fallacy of expecting slower cars to move out of the left lane for speeders is that. Cars that travel the speed limit move to the center or right lane get stuck behind cars and trucks going below the speed limit. The car then must wait for the left lane to clear enough to get back in the passing lane. If a person wishes to speed then they should not expect anyone going the speed limit to be required to move for them. The speed limit is the top speed by definition.

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You have a logic problem here. If you are in the left lane and passing cars in the middle lane then you're cool. No issue.

If you are sitting in the left lane and not passing cars in the middle lane, you are impeding traffic.

Nobody deputized anyone to use their personal vehicle to enforce traffic laws.

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Deputized?

I am losing you. How are they acting like a LEO? Are they pulling you over? Never saw that before!

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It's a metaphor. They are using their personal vehicles to enforce a law.

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Left Lane passing lanes are interesting. On one hand they passed these laws on not using Left Lane and on the other there is not enough capacity. So, if the middle and right lane are full, I guess the left is passing consistently until they can't move either. We have conflicting laws and conflicting analysis, which is right is based on who you talk to!

FLBear5630 said:

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Edmond Bear said:

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Guy Noir said:

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The fallacy of expecting slower cars to move out of the left lane for speeders is that. Cars that travel the speed limit move to the center or right lane get stuck behind cars and trucks going below the speed limit. The car then must wait for the left lane to clear enough to get back in the passing lane. If a person wishes to speed then they should not expect anyone going the speed limit to be required to move for them. The speed limit is the top speed by definition.

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You have a logic problem here. If you are in the left lane and passing cars in the middle lane then you're cool. No issue.

If you are sitting in the left lane and not passing cars in the middle lane, you are impeding traffic.

Nobody deputized anyone to use their personal vehicle to enforce traffic laws.

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Deputized?

I am losing you. How are they acting like a LEO? Are they pulling you over? Never saw that before!

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whitetrash said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Edmond Bear said:

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Guy Noir said:

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The fallacy of expecting slower cars to move out of the left lane for speeders is that. Cars that travel the speed limit move to the center or right lane get stuck behind cars and trucks going below the speed limit. The car then must wait for the left lane to clear enough to get back in the passing lane. If a person wishes to speed then they should not expect anyone going the speed limit to be required to move for them. The speed limit is the top speed by definition.

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You have a logic problem here. If you are in the left lane and passing cars in the middle lane then you're cool. No issue.

If you are sitting in the left lane and not passing cars in the middle lane, you are impeding traffic.

Nobody deputized anyone to use their personal vehicle to enforce traffic laws.

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Deputized?

I am losing you. How are they acting like a LEO? Are they pulling you over? Never saw that before!

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Where do you live?? Southlake? Didn't some guy in a car stop and hold a guy at gun point making a citizens arrest back in 2017ish?

I keep forgetting in Texas you can make a Citizens Arrest. You go ahead and channel your inner-Gomer! : )