So you believe that the New Testament is inspired - but it is not inerrant. It is the inspired, but errant, word of God. Correct?El Oso said:I did not dance around the question. I answered it. 2 Timothy 3:16 says it's all inspired by God. But the man that wrote that was a life long Pharisee and the gospels do a pretty good job of painting the Pharisees who really do not understand the scriptures at all. I made it pretty clear I think Paul fell into this trap: I'm right because damnit, I'm smarter than you are and I know the words of God better than you do. The OT views (the first five books) of women seem pretty clear with some outlier stories in later books. Saul (before Paul) would have known these five books, plus the prophets, better than almost anybody, and as noted, women came second in these books. But Jesus regularly demonstrated to all, especially the Pharisees, how knowing what these books said and knowing what they actually meant were two very different things. Again, this is exactly what I believe happened to Paul.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Christians don't say that Paul is right because "he says he's right". They believe he is right, because they believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God.El Oso said:
Remind me again who wrote 2 Timothy 3:16. That would be the man in question on the women issue too. A born and highly trained Pharisee pre conversion. Someone who believed to his core he was better than us commoners and would refer to his elite knowledge of the Torah and Jewish history to prove he was right when he was indeed wrong. Remember all those disputes they got in with Jesus? As I noted earlier, I don't think all of his pre conversion thoughts disappeared at conversion. Believing women inferior to men is not a sin. It's a belief based on child rearing, education, and his career.
In modern times, many preachers have delivered a message on a Sunday they claimed came from God, and, in my opinion, missed the bigger point. The larger portions of Paul's letters deal with sin and improper behavior. These minor parts deal with leadership and deviate from Jesus leadership style that was inclusive of all genders.
I believe the same thing is happening here when it comes to church doctrine involving women.
Basically, you're saying Paul's right because he says he's right. That's a logical fallacy.
Which is why I asked you the question (which you danced around): do you believe Paul's words in the New Testament are the inspired word of God, or do you not?
If you wanna talk logic, then if what you're saying is true, that Paul contradicts Jesus, then there is only one logical conclusion from that: Paul is lying when he says these things are a command from the Lord (I Corinthians 14:36) and so Paul is a false apostle, and the New Testament is NOT the inspired word of God. Is this what you believe?
And you make another logical fallacy in this post (either or). There are actually multiple conclusions one could draw from what I wrote. I draw the one that says Paul is not lying in the way you and I want lying defined. Paul deeply believes women are inferior to men and should not assume leadership roles. He's not lying. He's just wrong.
He could still be wrong even being God inspired. Some preachers do it every Sunday. Their sermon was "God inspired," but it just misses the bigger picture or is wrong. I grew up a preacher's kid. I've met a ton of preachers in my life and was privy to conversations in my parent's living room between a group of pastors (the walls in the house weren't that thick, or as long as they weren't talking about an actual church member, I could sit in the room with them if I wanted to). They all said that as they looked back on their careers, there were messages they delivered fully believing they were right they no longer feel that way about. It's just what happens sometimes in all of our lives.
I believe that's exactly what is going on with Paul and his teachings on women. His Pharisee training was still too much of who he was and he just missed the mark when we compare what he wrote to these churches to what we see about Jesus and his ministry in the four gospels when it comes to the role of women.
Also, the "either/or" is not a fallacy. You are claiming that Paul's words, which he claims is a direct command from the Lord, contradicts the Lord. If Paul's words are true, then they can't be a contradiction - the Lord would be contradicting himself. If they ARE a contradiction, then it would necessarily mean that Paul's words are false, which would make him a false apostle. That is, unless you are saying Jesus is false too.