J.R. said:

---

That is not how it works. I am divorced unfortuanlly and there was no Infidelity on either side. It just isn't that simple. Life can be hard.

---

Those were Jesus' words, not mine. We are called to live by them, no matter how tough it gets.

I am sorry to hear about your divorce. I hate to hear when any couple separates.

This is NOT an indictment of you, but rather our contraceptive-culture that has prevailed over the last 50 years. We, as a society, do not value the sanctity of marriage. According to research, about 39% of Protestants get divorced and about 28% of Catholics get divorced.

The Catechism paragraph 1606 states the following, "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."

The Catholic Church takes marriage very seriously because we believe that Jesus elevated it to a sacrament.

The Church requires the couple to have 6 months of wedding prep with the priest or representative of the parish. This prep work is still NO guarantee of a lifelong marriage. It does take considerable amount of work.

Interesting fact, in the eyes of the Church, the priest does NOT marry the couple. When the couple exchange the vows, they marry each other. The priest (bishop or deacon) is merely the witness for the Church.

I've been lucky to be married to my wife for over 29 years. She's put up with a LOT from me. God Bless her. I've never wanted to leave, but i have felt that I should leave for her sake. Fortunately, I never did. We've been blessed to power thru our issues and some really rough years.

Wife and I celebrated our 40th this year. I give my wife credit at every opportunity, saying "the secret to our success is that my wife is letting me grow up at my own pace."

J.R. said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Not disputing you as I suspect you are correct.

But where in the New Testament does Jesus forbid divorce ?

---

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus clearly states,

"But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

He reiterates this teaching in Matthew 19:6-8, saying,

"So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate. "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away? Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."

---

---

If there was a legitimate cause for divorce, listening to Satan, eating the forbidden fruit, and getting the entire family kicked out of the Garden of Eden has to be up there.

Realitybites said:

---

J.R. said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Not disputing you as I suspect you are correct.

But where in the New Testament does Jesus forbid divorce ?

---

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus clearly states,

"But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

He reiterates this teaching in Matthew 19:6-8, saying,

"So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate. "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away? Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."

---

---

If there was a legitimate cause for divorce, listening to Satan, eating the forbidden fruit, and getting the entire family kicked out of the Garden of Eden has to be up there.

---

Sometimes people forget that they both screwed up, similar to most failed (and successful) marriages.

Adam was a direct witness to those events. He made the same mistake. When confronted by God he tried to pass the buck, blaming both Eve & God. The guilt was his own.

Coke Bear said:

---

J.R. said:

---

That is not how it works. I am divorced unfortuanlly and there was no Infidelity on either side. It just isn't that simple. Life can be hard.

---

Those were Jesus' words, not mine. We are called to live by them, no matter how tough it gets.

I am sorry to hear about your divorce. I hate to hear when any couple separates.

This is NOT an indictment of you, but rather our contraceptive-culture that has prevailed over the last 50 years. We, as a society, do not value the sanctity of marriage. According to research, about 39% of Protestants get divorced and about 28% of Catholics get divorced.

The Catechism paragraph 1606 states the following, "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."

The Catholic Church takes marriage very seriously because we believe that Jesus elevated it to a sacrament.

The Church requires the couple to have 6 months of wedding prep with the priest or representative of the parish. This prep work is still NO guarantee of a lifelong marriage. It does take considerable amount of work.

Interesting fact, in the eyes of the Church, the priest does NOT marry the couple. When the couple exchange the vows, they marry each other. The priest (bishop or deacon) is merely the witness for the Church.

I've been lucky to be married to my wife for over 29 years. She's put up with a LOT from me. God Bless her. I've never wanted to leave, but i have felt that I should leave for her sake. Fortunately, I never did. We've been blessed to power thru our issues and some really rough years.

---

"power thru issues"
is a great descriptor.

4th and Inches said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th "how do you reconcile man leaves his mother and father, and becomes united with his wife as to become one flesh. Two become one gives you a solid reference for monogamy. Man leaving his mother and father and becoming united with his wife is your stumbling block.

How does a man leave his mother and father and become united with his wife as to become one if there is not one male and one female in the union?"
Great question -- Scripture seems pretty clear.
But I invite you to look at the story this way. 'The narrative of becoming one flesh is an accurate recording of history for the Jewish faith but proscriptive. It is simply description of what happened on the day of creation. God does not command it.

---

ok, it is an accurate recording of history but is too prohibitive in your line of thinking..


Leviticus 20
1599 Geneva Bible

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Thou shalt say also to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that dwell in Israel, that giveth his children unto Molech, he shall die the death, the people of the land shall stone him to death.
3 And I will set my face against that man and cut him off from among his people, because he hath given his children unto Molech, for to defile my Sanctuary, and to pollute mine holy Name.
4 And if the people of the land hide their eyes, and wink at that man when he giveth his children unto Molech, and kill him not,
5 Then will I set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him to commit *****dom with Molech, from among their people.
6 If any turn after such as work with spirits, and after soothsayers to go a [d]whoring after them, then will I set my face against that person, and will cut him off from among his people.
7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am the Lord your God.
8 Keep ye therefore mine ordinances, and do them: I am the Lord which doth sanctify you.
9 If there be any that curseth his father or his mother he shall die the death, seeing he hath cursed his father and his mother, his blood shall be upon him.
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, because he hath committed adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall die the death.
11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife, because he hath uncovered his father's shame, they shall both die: their blood shall be upon them.
12 Also the man that lieth with his daughter-in-law, they both shall die the death, they have wrought [f]abomination, their blood shall be upon them.
13 The man also that lieth with the male, as one lieth with a woman, they have both committed abomination: they shall die the death, their blood shall be upon them.
14 Likewise he that taketh a wife and her mother, committeth wickedness: they shall burn him and them with fire, that there be no wickedness among you.

Leviticus 20:13 disagrees with your individual belief that God has not commanded marriage to be just male and female. And I am sure you're ok with all the deaths? And why the Geneva Bible?

---

---

oldest one i could quote easily. Words tend to be updated and change in meaning and tone. If you still lived in the time this bible was taught, your moral compass would probably be different as the modern wording of the bible has taken a softer tone which people find easier to dismiss.

If God says that is how it must be then I am ok with it.

I dont believe in God when it is convenient, God is.. and therefore I am, as a child of God, ok with the harshness of God's law and God's mercy and grace.

---

Leviticus is no longer in play in light of the gospels. Jesus made Leviticus into two simple commandments: Love God and your neighbor as yourself

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th "how do you reconcile man leaves his mother and father, and becomes united with his wife as to become one flesh. Two become one gives you a solid reference for monogamy. Man leaving his mother and father and becoming united with his wife is your stumbling block.

How does a man leave his mother and father and become united with his wife as to become one if there is not one male and one female in the union?"
Great question -- Scripture seems pretty clear.
But I invite you to look at the story this way. 'The narrative of becoming one flesh is an accurate recording of history for the Jewish faith but proscriptive. It is simply description of what happened on the day of creation. God does not command it.

---

ok, it is an accurate recording of history but is too prohibitive in your line of thinking..


Leviticus 20
1599 Geneva Bible

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Thou shalt say also to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that dwell in Israel, that giveth his children unto Molech, he shall die the death, the people of the land shall stone him to death.
3 And I will set my face against that man and cut him off from among his people, because he hath given his children unto Molech, for to defile my Sanctuary, and to pollute mine holy Name.
4 And if the people of the land hide their eyes, and wink at that man when he giveth his children unto Molech, and kill him not,
5 Then will I set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him to commit *****dom with Molech, from among their people.
6 If any turn after such as work with spirits, and after soothsayers to go a [d]whoring after them, then will I set my face against that person, and will cut him off from among his people.
7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am the Lord your God.
8 Keep ye therefore mine ordinances, and do them: I am the Lord which doth sanctify you.
9 If there be any that curseth his father or his mother he shall die the death, seeing he hath cursed his father and his mother, his blood shall be upon him.
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, because he hath committed adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall die the death.
11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife, because he hath uncovered his father's shame, they shall both die: their blood shall be upon them.
12 Also the man that lieth with his daughter-in-law, they both shall die the death, they have wrought [f]abomination, their blood shall be upon them.
13 The man also that lieth with the male, as one lieth with a woman, they have both committed abomination: they shall die the death, their blood shall be upon them.
14 Likewise he that taketh a wife and her mother, committeth wickedness: they shall burn him and them with fire, that there be no wickedness among you.

Leviticus 20:13 disagrees with your individual belief that God has not commanded marriage to be just male and female. And I am sure you're ok with all the deaths? And why the Geneva Bible?

---

---

oldest one i could quote easily. Words tend to be updated and change in meaning and tone. If you still lived in the time this bible was taught, your moral compass would probably be different as the modern wording of the bible has taken a softer tone which people find easier to dismiss.

If God says that is how it must be then I am ok with it.

I dont believe in God when it is convenient, God is.. and therefore I am, as a child of God, ok with the harshness of God's law and God's mercy and grace.

---

Leviticus is no longer in play in light of the gospels. Jesus made Leviticus into two simple commandments: Love God and your neighbor as yourself

---

weird, every church I have been to preaches from the old testament.. you know, the section of the Bible no longer needed in light of the gospels.

go bears!

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th "how do you reconcile man leaves his mother and father, and becomes united with his wife as to become one flesh. Two become one gives you a solid reference for monogamy. Man leaving his mother and father and becoming united with his wife is your stumbling block.

How does a man leave his mother and father and become united with his wife as to become one if there is not one male and one female in the union?"
Great question -- Scripture seems pretty clear.
But I invite you to look at the story this way. 'The narrative of becoming one flesh is an accurate recording of history for the Jewish faith but proscriptive. It is simply description of what happened on the day of creation. God does not command it.

---

ok, it is an accurate recording of history but is too prohibitive in your line of thinking..


Leviticus 20
1599 Geneva Bible

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Thou shalt say also to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that dwell in Israel, that giveth his children unto Molech, he shall die the death, the people of the land shall stone him to death.
3 And I will set my face against that man and cut him off from among his people, because he hath given his children unto Molech, for to defile my Sanctuary, and to pollute mine holy Name.
4 And if the people of the land hide their eyes, and wink at that man when he giveth his children unto Molech, and kill him not,
5 Then will I set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him to commit *****dom with Molech, from among their people.
6 If any turn after such as work with spirits, and after soothsayers to go a [d]whoring after them, then will I set my face against that person, and will cut him off from among his people.
7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am the Lord your God.
8 Keep ye therefore mine ordinances, and do them: I am the Lord which doth sanctify you.
9 If there be any that curseth his father or his mother he shall die the death, seeing he hath cursed his father and his mother, his blood shall be upon him.
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, because he hath committed adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall die the death.
11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife, because he hath uncovered his father's shame, they shall both die: their blood shall be upon them.
12 Also the man that lieth with his daughter-in-law, they both shall die the death, they have wrought [f]abomination, their blood shall be upon them.
13 The man also that lieth with the male, as one lieth with a woman, they have both committed abomination: they shall die the death, their blood shall be upon them.
14 Likewise he that taketh a wife and her mother, committeth wickedness: they shall burn him and them with fire, that there be no wickedness among you.

Leviticus 20:13 disagrees with your individual belief that God has not commanded marriage to be just male and female. And I am sure you're ok with all the deaths? And why the Geneva Bible?

---

---

oldest one i could quote easily. Words tend to be updated and change in meaning and tone. If you still lived in the time this bible was taught, your moral compass would probably be different as the modern wording of the bible has taken a softer tone which people find easier to dismiss.

If God says that is how it must be then I am ok with it.

I dont believe in God when it is convenient, God is.. and therefore I am, as a child of God, ok with the harshness of God's law and God's mercy and grace.

---

Leviticus is no longer in play in light of the gospels. Jesus made Leviticus into two simple commandments: Love God and your neighbor as yourself

---

weird, every church I have been to preaches from the old testament.. you know, the section of the Bible no longer needed in light of the gospels.

---

Not weird at all. I preach the OT, too, but through a gospel lens God's grace and love.

Romans 1 must be inconvenient to you. Paul made it very clear that the sins of his day are no different than those of the past. And they are not very different 2,000 years later. And they still are sins condemned by God.

Seriously: everyone should read the Book of Romans. It is an amazing text filled with vital truths including the plan of salvation (Roman Road), a discourse on government (Chap 12), and much much more.

Some people don't like General Tso's chicken because it's too hot and doesn't sit well with them. The same applies to parts of the Bible.

47, do some things in the Bible, I mean column 1, not sit well with you? I know some things are hard to swallow.

God had the answer to that in the last chapter of the Bible:

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." Revelation 22:18-19

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th "how do you reconcile man leaves his mother and father, and becomes united with his wife as to become one flesh. Two become one gives you a solid reference for monogamy. Man leaving his mother and father and becoming united with his wife is your stumbling block.

How does a man leave his mother and father and become united with his wife as to become one if there is not one male and one female in the union?"
Great question -- Scripture seems pretty clear.
But I invite you to look at the story this way. 'The narrative of becoming one flesh is an accurate recording of history for the Jewish faith but proscriptive. It is simply description of what happened on the day of creation. God does not command it.

---

ok, it is an accurate recording of history but is too prohibitive in your line of thinking..


Leviticus 20
1599 Geneva Bible

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Thou shalt say also to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that dwell in Israel, that giveth his children unto Molech, he shall die the death, the people of the land shall stone him to death.
3 And I will set my face against that man and cut him off from among his people, because he hath given his children unto Molech, for to defile my Sanctuary, and to pollute mine holy Name.
4 And if the people of the land hide their eyes, and wink at that man when he giveth his children unto Molech, and kill him not,
5 Then will I set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him to commit *****dom with Molech, from among their people.
6 If any turn after such as work with spirits, and after soothsayers to go a [d]whoring after them, then will I set my face against that person, and will cut him off from among his people.
7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am the Lord your God.
8 Keep ye therefore mine ordinances, and do them: I am the Lord which doth sanctify you.
9 If there be any that curseth his father or his mother he shall die the death, seeing he hath cursed his father and his mother, his blood shall be upon him.
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, because he hath committed adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall die the death.
11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife, because he hath uncovered his father's shame, they shall both die: their blood shall be upon them.
12 Also the man that lieth with his daughter-in-law, they both shall die the death, they have wrought [f]abomination, their blood shall be upon them.
13 The man also that lieth with the male, as one lieth with a woman, they have both committed abomination: they shall die the death, their blood shall be upon them.
14 Likewise he that taketh a wife and her mother, committeth wickedness: they shall burn him and them with fire, that there be no wickedness among you.

Leviticus 20:13 disagrees with your individual belief that God has not commanded marriage to be just male and female. And I am sure you're ok with all the deaths? And why the Geneva Bible?

---

---

oldest one i could quote easily. Words tend to be updated and change in meaning and tone. If you still lived in the time this bible was taught, your moral compass would probably be different as the modern wording of the bible has taken a softer tone which people find easier to dismiss.

If God says that is how it must be then I am ok with it.

I dont believe in God when it is convenient, God is.. and therefore I am, as a child of God, ok with the harshness of God's law and God's mercy and grace.

---

Leviticus is no longer in play in light of the gospels. Jesus made Leviticus into two simple commandments: Love God and your neighbor as yourself

---

weird, every church I have been to preaches from the old testament.. you know, the section of the Bible no longer needed in light of the gospels.

---

Not weird at all. I preach the OT, too, but through a gospel lens God's grace and love.

---

got it, the OT is important when you want it to be but not when it conflicts with your interpretation of how it should be preached to the world

historian said:

---

Romans 1 must be inconvenient to you. Paul made it very clear that the sins of his day are no different than those of the past. And they are not very different 2,000 years later. And they still are sins condemned by God.

Seriously: everyone should read the Book of Romans. It is an amazing text filled with vital truths including the plan of salvation (Roman Road), a discourse on government (Chap 12), and much much more.

---

Seriously, do a little historical-critical reading of Romans 1. Paul is referring to homo-erotic behavior between a male in a power position and a powerless slave or male prostitute. I do not support that kind of behavior. It is about power.

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th "how do you reconcile man leaves his mother and father, and becomes united with his wife as to become one flesh. Two become one gives you a solid reference for monogamy. Man leaving his mother and father and becoming united with his wife is your stumbling block.

How does a man leave his mother and father and become united with his wife as to become one if there is not one male and one female in the union?"
Great question -- Scripture seems pretty clear.
But I invite you to look at the story this way. 'The narrative of becoming one flesh is an accurate recording of history for the Jewish faith but proscriptive. It is simply description of what happened on the day of creation. God does not command it.

---

ok, it is an accurate recording of history but is too prohibitive in your line of thinking..


Leviticus 20
1599 Geneva Bible

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Thou shalt say also to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that dwell in Israel, that giveth his children unto Molech, he shall die the death, the people of the land shall stone him to death.
3 And I will set my face against that man and cut him off from among his people, because he hath given his children unto Molech, for to defile my Sanctuary, and to pollute mine holy Name.
4 And if the people of the land hide their eyes, and wink at that man when he giveth his children unto Molech, and kill him not,
5 Then will I set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him to commit *****dom with Molech, from among their people.
6 If any turn after such as work with spirits, and after soothsayers to go a [d]whoring after them, then will I set my face against that person, and will cut him off from among his people.
7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am the Lord your God.
8 Keep ye therefore mine ordinances, and do them: I am the Lord which doth sanctify you.
9 If there be any that curseth his father or his mother he shall die the death, seeing he hath cursed his father and his mother, his blood shall be upon him.
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, because he hath committed adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall die the death.
11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife, because he hath uncovered his father's shame, they shall both die: their blood shall be upon them.
12 Also the man that lieth with his daughter-in-law, they both shall die the death, they have wrought [f]abomination, their blood shall be upon them.
13 The man also that lieth with the male, as one lieth with a woman, they have both committed abomination: they shall die the death, their blood shall be upon them.
14 Likewise he that taketh a wife and her mother, committeth wickedness: they shall burn him and them with fire, that there be no wickedness among you.

Leviticus 20:13 disagrees with your individual belief that God has not commanded marriage to be just male and female. And I am sure you're ok with all the deaths? And why the Geneva Bible?

---

---

oldest one i could quote easily. Words tend to be updated and change in meaning and tone. If you still lived in the time this bible was taught, your moral compass would probably be different as the modern wording of the bible has taken a softer tone which people find easier to dismiss.

If God says that is how it must be then I am ok with it.

I dont believe in God when it is convenient, God is.. and therefore I am, as a child of God, ok with the harshness of God's law and God's mercy and grace.

---

Leviticus is no longer in play in light of the gospels. Jesus made Leviticus into two simple commandments: Love God and your neighbor as yourself

---

weird, every church I have been to preaches from the old testament.. you know, the section of the Bible no longer needed in light of the gospels.

---

Not weird at all. I preach the OT, too, but through a gospel lens God's grace and love.

---

got it, the OT is important when you want it to be but not when it conflicts with your interpretation of how it should be preached to the world No, you don't got it. Your answer is simply inability on your part to offer a reasoned, thoughtful response.

For your convenience, here is the argument to which you can respond intelligently, I preach the OT, too, but through a gospel lens God's grace and love.

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th "how do you reconcile man leaves his mother and father, and becomes united with his wife as to become one flesh. Two become one gives you a solid reference for monogamy. Man leaving his mother and father and becoming united with his wife is your stumbling block.

How does a man leave his mother and father and become united with his wife as to become one if there is not one male and one female in the union?"
Great question -- Scripture seems pretty clear.
But I invite you to look at the story this way. 'The narrative of becoming one flesh is an accurate recording of history for the Jewish faith but proscriptive. It is simply description of what happened on the day of creation. God does not command it.

---

ok, it is an accurate recording of history but is too prohibitive in your line of thinking..


Leviticus 20
1599 Geneva Bible

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Thou shalt say also to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that dwell in Israel, that giveth his children unto Molech, he shall die the death, the people of the land shall stone him to death.
3 And I will set my face against that man and cut him off from among his people, because he hath given his children unto Molech, for to defile my Sanctuary, and to pollute mine holy Name.
4 And if the people of the land hide their eyes, and wink at that man when he giveth his children unto Molech, and kill him not,
5 Then will I set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him to commit *****dom with Molech, from among their people.
6 If any turn after such as work with spirits, and after soothsayers to go a [d]whoring after them, then will I set my face against that person, and will cut him off from among his people.
7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am the Lord your God.
8 Keep ye therefore mine ordinances, and do them: I am the Lord which doth sanctify you.
9 If there be any that curseth his father or his mother he shall die the death, seeing he hath cursed his father and his mother, his blood shall be upon him.
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, because he hath committed adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall die the death.
11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife, because he hath uncovered his father's shame, they shall both die: their blood shall be upon them.
12 Also the man that lieth with his daughter-in-law, they both shall die the death, they have wrought [f]abomination, their blood shall be upon them.
13 The man also that lieth with the male, as one lieth with a woman, they have both committed abomination: they shall die the death, their blood shall be upon them.
14 Likewise he that taketh a wife and her mother, committeth wickedness: they shall burn him and them with fire, that there be no wickedness among you.

Leviticus 20:13 disagrees with your individual belief that God has not commanded marriage to be just male and female. And I am sure you're ok with all the deaths? And why the Geneva Bible?

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oldest one i could quote easily. Words tend to be updated and change in meaning and tone. If you still lived in the time this bible was taught, your moral compass would probably be different as the modern wording of the bible has taken a softer tone which people find easier to dismiss.

If God says that is how it must be then I am ok with it.

I dont believe in God when it is convenient, God is.. and therefore I am, as a child of God, ok with the harshness of God's law and God's mercy and grace.

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Leviticus is no longer in play in light of the gospels. Jesus made Leviticus into two simple commandments: Love God and your neighbor as yourself

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weird, every church I have been to preaches from the old testament.. you know, the section of the Bible no longer needed in light of the gospels.

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Not weird at all. I preach the OT, too, but through a gospel lens God's grace and love.

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got it, the OT is important when you want it to be but not when it conflicts with your interpretation of how it should be preached to the world No, you don't got it. Your answer is simply inability on your part to offer a reasoned, thoughtful response.

For your convenience, here is the argument to which you can respond intelligently, I preach the OT, too, but through a gospel lens God's grace and love.

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Paul says, "Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down (in the OT) for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come" (1 Cor. 10:11).

Paul also emphasized, "For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope" (Rom. 15:4 )

Similarly, Peter emphasized that "it was revealed to [the Old Testament prophets] that they were serving not themselves but you"the Christian church (1 Pet. 1:12)

The Old Testament is Christian Scripture that God wrote to instruct us. These "sacred writings . . . are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus," and it is this "Scripture" that "is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness" (2 Tim. 3:1517).

Theologically, to give the same care to the Old Testament as to the New means we treat the initial three-fourths of the Christian Scripture as the Word of God for us (Mark 7:13; 12:36), which Jesus considered authoritative (Matt. 4:34, 7, 10; 23:13), believed couldn't be broken (John 10:35), and called people to know and trust so as to guard against doctrinal error and hell (Mark 12:24; Luke 16:2831; 24:25; John 5:4647).

We must seek to faithfully proclaim "the whole counsel of God" (Acts 20:27) as disclosed from Genesis to Revelation and to do so in a way that God approves, because you rightly handle "the word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15)

whiterock said:

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Wife and I celebrated our 40th this year. I give my wife credit at every opportunity, saying "the secret to our success is that my wife is letting me grow up at my own pace."

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that would be a really wise lady!

william said:

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go bears!

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KKm, You are the relief well all need. Well done at so many levels !

J.R. said:

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Coke Bear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Not disputing you as I suspect you are correct.

But where in the New Testament does Jesus forbid divorce ?

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In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus clearly states,

"But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

He reiterates this teaching in Matthew 19:6-8, saying,

"So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate. "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away? Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."

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That is not how it works. I am divorced unfortuanlly and there was no Infidelity on either side. It just isn't that simple. Life can be hard.

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You seem to have recovered nicely.

Get to travel quite it bit.

No. Paul is referring to sex between two people of the same sex. It's not the least bit ambiguous and attempts to reinterpret it into something else are dishonest. That's a very dangerous thing to do with God's holy word.

Coke Bear said:

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J.R. said:

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That is not how it works. I am divorced unfortuanlly and there was no Infidelity on either side. It just isn't that simple. Life can be hard.

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Those were Jesus' words, not mine. We are called to live by them, no matter how tough it gets.

I am sorry to hear about your divorce. I hate to hear when any couple separates.

This is NOT an indictment of you, but rather our contraceptive-culture that has prevailed over the last 50 years. We, as a society, do not value the sanctity of marriage. According to research, about 39% of Protestants get divorced and about 28% of Catholics get divorced.

The Catechism paragraph 1606 states the following, "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."

The Catholic Church takes marriage very seriously because we believe that Jesus elevated it to a sacrament.

The Church requires the couple to have 6 months of wedding prep with the priest or representative of the parish. This prep work is still NO guarantee of a lifelong marriage. It does take considerable amount of work.

Interesting fact, in the eyes of the Church, the priest does NOT marry the couple. When the couple exchange the vows, they marry each other. The priest (bishop or deacon) is merely the witness for the Church.

I've been lucky to be married to my wife for over 29 years. She's put up with a LOT from me. God Bless her. I've never wanted to leave, but i have felt that I should leave for her sake. Fortunately, I never did. We've been blessed to power thru our issues and some really rough years.

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These are nice posts, but it often is more complicated. Say you marry someone who becomes mentally ill, personality disorder, abusive, etc and there is just no fixing it. We tell people how to power through and build a lasting marriage, but sometimes it just isn't within the capabilities of either party. A failure to acknowledge that often leaves people tethered to an abuser or someone just using them up. It's not a real marriage. That's just one example, and the church's failure to properly acknowledge those situations except in hindsight causes a lot of problems - both for people stuck in bad marriages and for the survivors of bad marriages. Lots of former churchgoers who won't go back because of how they were treated trying to leave a bad marriage.

Robert Wilson said:

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Coke Bear said:

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J.R. said:

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That is not how it works. I am divorced unfortuanlly and there was no Infidelity on either side. It just isn't that simple. Life can be hard.

---

Those were Jesus' words, not mine. We are called to live by them, no matter how tough it gets.

I am sorry to hear about your divorce. I hate to hear when any couple separates.

This is NOT an indictment of you, but rather our contraceptive-culture that has prevailed over the last 50 years. We, as a society, do not value the sanctity of marriage. According to research, about 39% of Protestants get divorced and about 28% of Catholics get divorced.

The Catechism paragraph 1606 states the following, "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."

The Catholic Church takes marriage very seriously because we believe that Jesus elevated it to a sacrament.

The Church requires the couple to have 6 months of wedding prep with the priest or representative of the parish. This prep work is still NO guarantee of a lifelong marriage. It does take considerable amount of work.

Interesting fact, in the eyes of the Church, the priest does NOT marry the couple. When the couple exchange the vows, they marry each other. The priest (bishop or deacon) is merely the witness for the Church.

I've been lucky to be married to my wife for over 29 years. She's put up with a LOT from me. God Bless her. I've never wanted to leave, but i have felt that I should leave for her sake. Fortunately, I never did. We've been blessed to power thru our issues and some really rough years.

---

These are nice posts, but it often is more complicated. Say you marry someone who becomes mentally ill, personality disorder, abusive, etc and there is just no fixing it. We tell people how to power through and build a lasting marriage, but sometimes it just isn't within the capabilities of either party. A failure to acknowledge that often leaves people tethered to an abuser or someone just using them up. It's not a real marriage. That's just one example, and the church's failure to properly acknowledge those situations except in hindsight causes a lot of problems - both for people stuck in bad marriages and for the survivors of bad marriages. Lots of former churchgoers who won't go back because of how they were treated trying to leave a bad marriage.

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Lots?

This sounds like you are making the arguments of rape and incest for the abortion crowd. It's an extremely small % but you want everyone to have that out.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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Coke Bear said:

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J.R. said:

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That is not how it works. I am divorced unfortuanlly and there was no Infidelity on either side. It just isn't that simple. Life can be hard.

---

Those were Jesus' words, not mine. We are called to live by them, no matter how tough it gets.

I am sorry to hear about your divorce. I hate to hear when any couple separates.

This is NOT an indictment of you, but rather our contraceptive-culture that has prevailed over the last 50 years. We, as a society, do not value the sanctity of marriage. According to research, about 39% of Protestants get divorced and about 28% of Catholics get divorced.

The Catechism paragraph 1606 states the following, "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."

The Catholic Church takes marriage very seriously because we believe that Jesus elevated it to a sacrament.

The Church requires the couple to have 6 months of wedding prep with the priest or representative of the parish. This prep work is still NO guarantee of a lifelong marriage. It does take considerable amount of work.

Interesting fact, in the eyes of the Church, the priest does NOT marry the couple. When the couple exchange the vows, they marry each other. The priest (bishop or deacon) is merely the witness for the Church.

I've been lucky to be married to my wife for over 29 years. She's put up with a LOT from me. God Bless her. I've never wanted to leave, but i have felt that I should leave for her sake. Fortunately, I never did. We've been blessed to power thru our issues and some really rough years.

---

These are nice posts, but it often is more complicated. Say you marry someone who becomes mentally ill, personality disorder, abusive, etc and there is just no fixing it. We tell people how to power through and build a lasting marriage, but sometimes it just isn't within the capabilities of either party. A failure to acknowledge that often leaves people tethered to an abuser or someone just using them up. It's not a real marriage. That's just one example, and the church's failure to properly acknowledge those situations except in hindsight causes a lot of problems - both for people stuck in bad marriages and for the survivors of bad marriages. Lots of former churchgoers who won't go back because of how they were treated trying to leave a bad marriage.

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Lots?

This sounds like you are making the arguments of rape and incest for the abortion crowd. It's an extremely small % but you want everyone to have that out.

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Thanks for illustrating my point.

Robert Wilson said:

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These are nice posts, but it often is more complicated. Say you marry someone who becomes mentally ill, personality disorder, abusive, etc and there is just no fixing it. We tell people how to power through and build a lasting marriage, but sometimes it just isn't within the capabilities of either party. A failure to acknowledge that often leaves people tethered to an abuser or someone just using them up. It's not a real marriage. That's just one example, and the church's failure to properly acknowledge those situations except in hindsight causes a lot of problems - both for people stuck in bad marriages and for the survivors of bad marriages. Lots of former churchgoers who won't go back because of how they were treated trying to leave a bad marriage.

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"For better or worse, in sickness and in health, until death do us part."

I get it. It's tough. Fr. Mike Schmitz talks about a couple who the bride became paralyzed on her honeymoon. They didn't sign for that, but in reality, they did.

Like I stated earlier, Jesus gave these commandments, the Church lives by them.

Having said that, the Church does understand when it is unsafe for one of the parties to live in the same house. She does allow for that party to separate for their safety.

I disagree with your premise that the Church fails "to properly acknowledge those situations except in hindsight causes a lot of problems". The Church understands and is sympathetic. Pope Frances, somewhat controversially, has stated that the lay faithful in some of these "irregular situations" may present themselves for communion.

The heart of the matter is that many people don't take the sanctity of marriage seriously.

One of the ministries that I would like to do a my parish is Wedding Prep. Not because I have a "phenomenal" marriage, but because my marriage has been through a great deal. Similar to a former alcoholic leading an AA meeting. They KNOW what these people are going thru.

Waco, on the matter of marriage being one man and one woman, Christ was clear and it's cited in Scripture.

You are not arguing an 'interpretation', you are denying Christ's word.

That's all well and good, but it is incomplete.

KaiBear said:

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J.R. said:

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Coke Bear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Not disputing you as I suspect you are correct.

But where in the New Testament does Jesus forbid divorce ?

---

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus clearly states,

"But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

He reiterates this teaching in Matthew 19:6-8, saying,

"So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate. "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away? Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."

---

That is not how it works. I am divorced unfortuanlly and there was no Infidelity on either side. It just isn't that simple. Life can be hard.

---

You seem to have recovered nicely.

Get to travel quite it bit

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thank you. lots of work and putting one foot in front of the other. Got 2 amazing kids raised. Yes, I'm flexible and travel is my deal. Headed back to Mexico tomorrow for a month.

Robert Wilson said:

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Coke Bear said:

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J.R. said:

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That is not how it works. I am divorced unfortuanlly and there was no Infidelity on either side. It just isn't that simple. Life can be hard.

---

Those were Jesus' words, not mine. We are called to live by them, no matter how tough it gets.

I am sorry to hear about your divorce. I hate to hear when any couple separates.

This is NOT an indictment of you, but rather our contraceptive-culture that has prevailed over the last 50 years. We, as a society, do not value the sanctity of marriage. According to research, about 39% of Protestants get divorced and about 28% of Catholics get divorced.

The Catechism paragraph 1606 states the following, "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."

The Catholic Church takes marriage very seriously because we believe that Jesus elevated it to a sacrament.

The Church requires the couple to have 6 months of wedding prep with the priest or representative of the parish. This prep work is still NO guarantee of a lifelong marriage. It does take considerable amount of work.

Interesting fact, in the eyes of the Church, the priest does NOT marry the couple. When the couple exchange the vows, they marry each other. The priest (bishop or deacon) is merely the witness for the Church.

I've been lucky to be married to my wife for over 29 years. She's put up with a LOT from me. God Bless her. I've never wanted to leave, but i have felt that I should leave for her sake. Fortunately, I never did. We've been blessed to power thru our issues and some really rough years.

---

These are nice posts, but it often is more complicated. Say you marry someone who becomes mentally ill, personality disorder, abusive, etc and there is just no fixing it. We tell people how to power through and build a lasting marriage, but sometimes it just isn't within the capabilities of either party. A failure to acknowledge that often leaves people tethered to an abuser or someone just using them up. It's not a real marriage. That's just one example, and the church's failure to properly acknowledge those situations except in hindsight causes a lot of problems - both for people stuck in bad marriages and for the survivors of bad marriages. Lots of former churchgoers who won't go back because of how they were treated trying to leave a bad marriage.

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In my view people most often stop attending Church due to a decreasing amount of humility and a corresponding increase in narcissism.

Same often applies to failed marriages.

Forgiveness is always found in the teachings of Jesus Christ. One benefits in accepting and providing that forgiveness to your spouse and others

My wife and I have been married for 44 years. Without question it is due to her devotion to God, the Church and our family.

That's going to be super unpopular here but you're right. And the responses show exactly what you would expect. Are there marriages that can be saved by humility and counseling and the church? Yes, absolutely, 100%.

Should every marriage be saved? Absolutely not. Does the church ostracize people because of that? 100%. Is the church complicit in women staying in terrible relationships? Yeah, no doubt about it.

nein51 said:

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That's going to be super unpopular here but you're right. And the responses show exactly what you would expect. Are there marriages that can be saved by humility and counseling and the church? Yes, absolutely, 100%.

Should every marriage be saved? Absolutely not. Does the church ostracize people because of that? 100%. Is the church complicit in women staying in terrible relationships? Yeah, no doubt about it.

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I have NEVER seen anyone in our Church get ostracized for being divorced.

Or for being gay for that matter.

Isn't it possible people sometimes anticipate being ostracized and bail before it actually occurs ?

KaiBear said:

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nein51 said:

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That's going to be super unpopular here but you're right. And the responses show exactly what you would expect. Are there marriages that can be saved by humility and counseling and the church? Yes, absolutely, 100%.

Should every marriage be saved? Absolutely not. Does the church ostracize people because of that? 100%. Is the church complicit in women staying in terrible relationships? Yeah, no doubt about it.

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I have NEVER seen anyone in our Church get ostracized for being divorced.

Or for being gay for that matter.

Isn't it possible people sometimes anticipate being ostracized and bail before it actually occurs ?

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social justice narratives tell some people they are being ostracized without even realizing it, and others that they are doing the ostracizing without even realizing it.

KaiBear said:

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nein51 said:

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That's going to be super unpopular here but you're right. And the responses show exactly what you would expect. Are there marriages that can be saved by humility and counseling and the church? Yes, absolutely, 100%.

Should every marriage be saved? Absolutely not. Does the church ostracize people because of that? 100%. Is the church complicit in women staying in terrible relationships? Yeah, no doubt about it.

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I have NEVER seen anyone in our Church get ostracized for being divorced.

Or for being gay for that matter.

Isn't it possible people sometimes anticipate being ostracized and bail before it actually occurs ?

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Good for you and your church. You cannot possibly think that doesn't happen, right?

Yes, it's possible people bail probably because they are embarrassed.

KaiBear said:

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nein51 said:

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That's going to be super unpopular here but you're right. And the responses show exactly what you would expect. Are there marriages that can be saved by humility and counseling and the church? Yes, absolutely, 100%.

Should every marriage be saved? Absolutely not. Does the church ostracize people because of that? 100%. Is the church complicit in women staying in terrible relationships? Yeah, no doubt about it.

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I have NEVER seen anyone in our Church get ostracized for being divorced.

Or for being gay for that matter.

Isn't it possible people sometimes anticipate being ostracized and bail before it actually occurs ?

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This!

People leave because they don't like to hear the truth when it is applied the them.

I've seen several people leave after divorce. They weren't force to leave. They left on their own.

They left because their "friends" stopped talking to them, they left because the groups they were part of no longer include them, the left because the "judge not lest ye be judged" crowd is judging them.

Or they left because they are ashamed they couldn't make it work, if they had only been better Christians and better wives or husbands things would have been ok.