"The Rich don't pay their fair share"

4,330 Views | 112 Replies | Last: 10 days ago by historian
Porteroso
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historian said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Actually, tax cuts done properly are the greatest stimulus to economic growth. When people are allowed to keep more of the money (& are robbed less by govt), they do all kinds of productive things with it that benefit everyone. It has worked multiple times in the past century in the US: 1920s, 1960s, 1980s, 2000s, & Trump's first term. It's one of many benefits of the free market system. No doubt there are many other examples throughout history in other countries.

We are the world's richest country, we do pretty well economically. What would tank that is a devaluation of the dollar in some way or shape.

If you had a plan to tackle the debt, you'd post it, but instead your plan for paying off a debt is to cut taxes and hope the economy booms faster than Congress can spend money. It is just total la la land over here.


You obviously have not paid attention to what I posted. I gave all kinds of suggestions above and my post on tax cuts was in direct response to someone else's post on taxes. I never suggested that tax cuts alone would solve our problems. Also, expecting economic growth from tax cuts is not just a hope, it's a fact. I cited several specific periods in American history in which it happened.

Like Leftists in politics and the media, your statements are the opposite of correct.

Try reading Milton Friedman, Ludwig von Mises, & Friedrich von Hayek instead of modern Marxists. You will understand economics and reality a lot more and be less likely to post such foolish drivel.

Tax cuts do not simply correlate with economic growth, is your first big mistake. You latch onto these ideas like it is some sort of infallible belief system. Many have had this discussion before, but in the US tax cuts have had mixed effects upon the economy. Try reading about it.

And if you can admit that cutting revenue is not the only thing wanted to do to pay down a debt, what else is in your plan, other than cutting revenue?
Porteroso
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EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

jbbear said:

ScottS said:

For years we've heard the left politicians say the rich don't pay their fair share. Now you have Hunter not paying over $1M in taxes and pardoned so he doesn't have to pay. Wouldn't this be an example of the rich not paying their fair share??? How do the lefties on this board, who clearly voted for Biden, explain this????
The same way Dumbocrats fail to realize the top 10% earners pay the VAST majority of our federal taxes. Around 40% don't pay any federal taxes of any kind. But they can't spend us into oblivion unless they can convince their godless voters to increase taxes at all times.

They actually know, for the most part, that the upper class contributes the most. What they want is additional tax brackets, because making 5 million a year is different from making 5 billion a year, and nobody truly needs 5 billion. And it is a fair point, that someone making even 500 million a year is profiting off of many others, making much less money. Nobody making 50m is doing it with their own 2 hands.

I support a progressive tax system, and not only would I let the tax cuts expire in 2025, I'd also created 3 or 4 new tax brackets at 15m, 50m, 100m, and 250m. Conservatives seem to not understand basic accounting. Revenue needs to exceed spending in order to make a dent in 30 trillion dollars of debt.

That's entirely the wrong way of thinking. No one has any right to say how much someone else needs or how much is too much for someone else. It's quite literally none of my business how much money you make or how you use it. The only exceptions is that crimes must be punished & politicians should be punished didn't more if they violate the public trust & abuse their power (bribery, extortion, kickbacks, etc).

This entire discussion demonstrates the wisdom of the Founding Fathers Hefner they placed a ban on income taxes in the original constitution. All they do is make it easier for a government to rob the people, makes government richer & more powerful, and thus leads to more corruption & tyranny. Nothing good comes from it.

Anyone who truly wants freedom should prioritize the repeal of the 16th amendment.

It is none of your business how much I make, but it sure is the IRS's, and the government's. Of course this is just my opinion, only worth 1/330,000,000, as is yours, but you are entirely wrong. Your logic leads to the conclusion of a flat tax rate, which is absolutely, undeniably, backwards. Elon Musk should not pay the same tax rate as a single mother who has trouble feeding her children.

I am a big proponent of limiting the power of the federal government, and giving power back to the states, but there are certain obligations the federal government has now, that it did not have in the 1770s.

Anyone wanting to go back to that structure is simply ignorant of reality. There is no responsible way to end social security, end medicare/medicaid, or make all 50 states responsible for their own armed forces. And it would be dumb to try. Maybe social security could be phased out, but that is the only large expense that could be.

A progressive federal income tax is really the best solution, and conveniently, what we have. Once you accept that reality, the idea that billionaires should pay the sane rate as measly millionaires becomes silly.

So what is Elons fair share?

What % should he pay?

In my mind, with hardly any thought into it


This adequately describes how you live your entire life.

Regardless of the subject, regardless of the realities involved.

Still wonder who continues to provide your bubble.

Do you have any idea how to solve the National debt crisis? Or are you in the la la zone of let's cut taxes more!
The obvious answer is to cut spending and impose a flat tax.

Do you think that is realistic? Could you get Congress to do it? And what flat tax would you impose?
Your tax plan to gain revenue would lose steam in short order as the economy would not sustain it lfor long. As the economy falls, so would revenue. It's just not sustainable as a solution.

My proposed taxes would cause the economy to fail? How do you figure that? Specifically what part?
Economy fail? Where did you get that?
The economy would not be able to increase revenues to the government for long with high tax rates. High tax rates pull capital from the economy and slow economic growth. Higher taxes would only work short term sapping recent growth, and not long enough to get the debt substantially down. Revenues would stall.
Growth is needed along with spending freeze/cuts. Also, a simpler tax system costs much less to oversee and comply with - fewer accountant and lawyer costs to the public and the government.

Did you read my tax rates? Other than additional tax brackets, the rates are the same as now. You think the millionaires and billionaires paying more in taxes would stall the economy? As I said, I believe my additional tax brackets are offset by a historically low capital gains tax. Keeping that low is the opposite of what you claim. It makes it easier for rich people to keep investing in the economy.

I think you saw my proposal and just decided to argue against it rather than read it.

And I've yet to see an alternative plan other than "flat tax."
KaiBear
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Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

jbbear said:

ScottS said:

For years we've heard the left politicians say the rich don't pay their fair share. Now you have Hunter not paying over $1M in taxes and pardoned so he doesn't have to pay. Wouldn't this be an example of the rich not paying their fair share??? How do the lefties on this board, who clearly voted for Biden, explain this????
The same way Dumbocrats fail to realize the top 10% earners pay the VAST majority of our federal taxes. Around 40% don't pay any federal taxes of any kind. But they can't spend us into oblivion unless they can convince their godless voters to increase taxes at all times.

They actually know, for the most part, that the upper class contributes the most. What they want is additional tax brackets, because making 5 million a year is different from making 5 billion a year, and nobody truly needs 5 billion. And it is a fair point, that someone making even 500 million a year is profiting off of many others, making much less money. Nobody making 50m is doing it with their own 2 hands.

I support a progressive tax system, and not only would I let the tax cuts expire in 2025, I'd also created 3 or 4 new tax brackets at 15m, 50m, 100m, and 250m. Conservatives seem to not understand basic accounting. Revenue needs to exceed spending in order to make a dent in 30 trillion dollars of debt.

That's entirely the wrong way of thinking. No one has any right to say how much someone else needs or how much is too much for someone else. It's quite literally none of my business how much money you make or how you use it. The only exceptions is that crimes must be punished & politicians should be punished didn't more if they violate the public trust & abuse their power (bribery, extortion, kickbacks, etc).

This entire discussion demonstrates the wisdom of the Founding Fathers Hefner they placed a ban on income taxes in the original constitution. All they do is make it easier for a government to rob the people, makes government richer & more powerful, and thus leads to more corruption & tyranny. Nothing good comes from it.

Anyone who truly wants freedom should prioritize the repeal of the 16th amendment.

It is none of your business how much I make, but it sure is the IRS's, and the government's. Of course this is just my opinion, only worth 1/330,000,000, as is yours, but you are entirely wrong. Your logic leads to the conclusion of a flat tax rate, which is absolutely, undeniably, backwards. Elon Musk should not pay the same tax rate as a single mother who has trouble feeding her children.

I am a big proponent of limiting the power of the federal government, and giving power back to the states, but there are certain obligations the federal government has now, that it did not have in the 1770s.

Anyone wanting to go back to that structure is simply ignorant of reality. There is no responsible way to end social security, end medicare/medicaid, or make all 50 states responsible for their own armed forces. And it would be dumb to try. Maybe social security could be phased out, but that is the only large expense that could be.

A progressive federal income tax is really the best solution, and conveniently, what we have. Once you accept that reality, the idea that billionaires should pay the sane rate as measly millionaires becomes silly.

So what is Elons fair share?

What % should he pay?

In my mind, with hardly any thought into it


This adequately describes how you live your entire life.

Regardless of the subject, regardless of the realities involved.

Still wonder who continues to provide your bubble.

Do you have any idea how to solve the National debt crisis? Or are you in the la la zone of let's cut taxes more!
The obvious answer is to cut spending and impose a flat tax.

Do you think that is realistic? Could you get Congress to do it? And what flat tax would you impose?


You asked for my solution.

I provided it.

Now you want guarantees.

Go away, once and for all.

So dumb. I'm asking you if you think your solution has a chance in hell. Of course it doesn't, it is no solution at all, but a dumb idea nobody would take seriously. And even if hell froze over and you got your flat tax, what % would it be?


You ask a question of me; yet answer it yourself to the negative.

Then move on to ask what % the flat tax would be despite previously rejecting the proposal as 'dumb'.

Either you are under the age of 17 or intellectually deficient.

Still wonder who pays your bills as you have made it transparently clear you are incapable of providing for yourself.



Do you have anything to contribute or not? How would you convince anyone to implement a flat tax? Forget what %. Are you able to post an answer, or just insults?
Do not need to 'convince ' the public.

Simply up to the federal government to implement the legislation.

Flat tax should be 15%.

Now GO AWAY and thank your Mom and Dad for continuing to pay your bills.
EatMoreSalmon
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Porteroso said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

jbbear said:

ScottS said:

For years we've heard the left politicians say the rich don't pay their fair share. Now you have Hunter not paying over $1M in taxes and pardoned so he doesn't have to pay. Wouldn't this be an example of the rich not paying their fair share??? How do the lefties on this board, who clearly voted for Biden, explain this????
The same way Dumbocrats fail to realize the top 10% earners pay the VAST majority of our federal taxes. Around 40% don't pay any federal taxes of any kind. But they can't spend us into oblivion unless they can convince their godless voters to increase taxes at all times.

They actually know, for the most part, that the upper class contributes the most. What they want is additional tax brackets, because making 5 million a year is different from making 5 billion a year, and nobody truly needs 5 billion. And it is a fair point, that someone making even 500 million a year is profiting off of many others, making much less money. Nobody making 50m is doing it with their own 2 hands.

I support a progressive tax system, and not only would I let the tax cuts expire in 2025, I'd also created 3 or 4 new tax brackets at 15m, 50m, 100m, and 250m. Conservatives seem to not understand basic accounting. Revenue needs to exceed spending in order to make a dent in 30 trillion dollars of debt.

That's entirely the wrong way of thinking. No one has any right to say how much someone else needs or how much is too much for someone else. It's quite literally none of my business how much money you make or how you use it. The only exceptions is that crimes must be punished & politicians should be punished didn't more if they violate the public trust & abuse their power (bribery, extortion, kickbacks, etc).

This entire discussion demonstrates the wisdom of the Founding Fathers Hefner they placed a ban on income taxes in the original constitution. All they do is make it easier for a government to rob the people, makes government richer & more powerful, and thus leads to more corruption & tyranny. Nothing good comes from it.

Anyone who truly wants freedom should prioritize the repeal of the 16th amendment.

It is none of your business how much I make, but it sure is the IRS's, and the government's. Of course this is just my opinion, only worth 1/330,000,000, as is yours, but you are entirely wrong. Your logic leads to the conclusion of a flat tax rate, which is absolutely, undeniably, backwards. Elon Musk should not pay the same tax rate as a single mother who has trouble feeding her children.

I am a big proponent of limiting the power of the federal government, and giving power back to the states, but there are certain obligations the federal government has now, that it did not have in the 1770s.

Anyone wanting to go back to that structure is simply ignorant of reality. There is no responsible way to end social security, end medicare/medicaid, or make all 50 states responsible for their own armed forces. And it would be dumb to try. Maybe social security could be phased out, but that is the only large expense that could be.

A progressive federal income tax is really the best solution, and conveniently, what we have. Once you accept that reality, the idea that billionaires should pay the sane rate as measly millionaires becomes silly.

So what is Elons fair share?

What % should he pay?

In my mind, with hardly any thought into it


This adequately describes how you live your entire life.

Regardless of the subject, regardless of the realities involved.

Still wonder who continues to provide your bubble.

Do you have any idea how to solve the National debt crisis? Or are you in the la la zone of let's cut taxes more!
The obvious answer is to cut spending and impose a flat tax.

Do you think that is realistic? Could you get Congress to do it? And what flat tax would you impose?
Your tax plan to gain revenue would lose steam in short order as the economy would not sustain it lfor long. As the economy falls, so would revenue. It's just not sustainable as a solution.

My proposed taxes would cause the economy to fail? How do you figure that? Specifically what part?
Economy fail? Where did you get that?
The economy would not be able to increase revenues to the government for long with high tax rates. High tax rates pull capital from the economy and slow economic growth. Higher taxes would only work short term sapping recent growth, and not long enough to get the debt substantially down. Revenues would stall.
Growth is needed along with spending freeze/cuts. Also, a simpler tax system costs much less to oversee and comply with - fewer accountant and lawyer costs to the public and the government.

Did you read my tax rates? Other than additional tax brackets, the rates are the same as now. You think the millionaires and billionaires paying more in taxes would stall the economy? As I said, I believe my additional tax brackets are offset by a historically low capital gains tax. Keeping that low is the opposite of what you claim. It makes it easier for rich people to keep investing in the economy.

I think you saw my proposal and just decided to argue against it rather than read it.

And I've yet to see an alternative plan other than "flat tax."
2017 tax law:
"Income Tax Rates: The law retained the seven individual income tax brackets. The top rate fell from 39.6% to 37%, while the 33% bracket dropped to 32%, the 28% bracket to 24%, the 25% bracket to 22%, and the 15% bracket to 12%. The lowest bracket remained at 10%, and the 35% was unchanged."

You stated you want to add new tax brackets of higher rates beyond these. Yes, those would remove a good portion of capital investment from the economy. I am pretty sure that capital comes from income as well as capital gains. Where do you believe it comes from?

As to your last sentence, it makes no sense to only support a progressive tax yet complain that someone else might only support a flat tax.
KaiBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Those who pay the least in income taxes….are most often the ones demanding those who pay the most…..pay even more.

Wonder why that is ?
nein51
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KaiBear said:

Those who pay the least in income taxes….are most often the ones demanding those who pay the most…..pay even more.

Wonder why that is ?

Truer words rarely spoken
Bruin92
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J.R. said:

BearFan33 said:

ScottS said:

For years we've heard the left politicians say the rich don't pay their fair share. Now you have Hunter not paying over $1M in taxes and pardoned so he doesn't have to pay. Wouldn't this be an example of the rich not paying their fair share??? How do the lefties on this board, who clearly voted for Biden, explain this????
#LiberalPrivilege
Now, that is non-sense. Many, many folks that lean or are left of center, are NO WAY privileged . You may want to get out more.
and many many folks that lean left are some of the richest people in the world. Same for conservatives...some are rich...some aren't. What is your point?
Porteroso
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EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

jbbear said:

ScottS said:

For years we've heard the left politicians say the rich don't pay their fair share. Now you have Hunter not paying over $1M in taxes and pardoned so he doesn't have to pay. Wouldn't this be an example of the rich not paying their fair share??? How do the lefties on this board, who clearly voted for Biden, explain this????
The same way Dumbocrats fail to realize the top 10% earners pay the VAST majority of our federal taxes. Around 40% don't pay any federal taxes of any kind. But they can't spend us into oblivion unless they can convince their godless voters to increase taxes at all times.

They actually know, for the most part, that the upper class contributes the most. What they want is additional tax brackets, because making 5 million a year is different from making 5 billion a year, and nobody truly needs 5 billion. And it is a fair point, that someone making even 500 million a year is profiting off of many others, making much less money. Nobody making 50m is doing it with their own 2 hands.

I support a progressive tax system, and not only would I let the tax cuts expire in 2025, I'd also created 3 or 4 new tax brackets at 15m, 50m, 100m, and 250m. Conservatives seem to not understand basic accounting. Revenue needs to exceed spending in order to make a dent in 30 trillion dollars of debt.

That's entirely the wrong way of thinking. No one has any right to say how much someone else needs or how much is too much for someone else. It's quite literally none of my business how much money you make or how you use it. The only exceptions is that crimes must be punished & politicians should be punished didn't more if they violate the public trust & abuse their power (bribery, extortion, kickbacks, etc).

This entire discussion demonstrates the wisdom of the Founding Fathers Hefner they placed a ban on income taxes in the original constitution. All they do is make it easier for a government to rob the people, makes government richer & more powerful, and thus leads to more corruption & tyranny. Nothing good comes from it.

Anyone who truly wants freedom should prioritize the repeal of the 16th amendment.

It is none of your business how much I make, but it sure is the IRS's, and the government's. Of course this is just my opinion, only worth 1/330,000,000, as is yours, but you are entirely wrong. Your logic leads to the conclusion of a flat tax rate, which is absolutely, undeniably, backwards. Elon Musk should not pay the same tax rate as a single mother who has trouble feeding her children.

I am a big proponent of limiting the power of the federal government, and giving power back to the states, but there are certain obligations the federal government has now, that it did not have in the 1770s.

Anyone wanting to go back to that structure is simply ignorant of reality. There is no responsible way to end social security, end medicare/medicaid, or make all 50 states responsible for their own armed forces. And it would be dumb to try. Maybe social security could be phased out, but that is the only large expense that could be.

A progressive federal income tax is really the best solution, and conveniently, what we have. Once you accept that reality, the idea that billionaires should pay the sane rate as measly millionaires becomes silly.

So what is Elons fair share?

What % should he pay?

In my mind, with hardly any thought into it


This adequately describes how you live your entire life.

Regardless of the subject, regardless of the realities involved.

Still wonder who continues to provide your bubble.

Do you have any idea how to solve the National debt crisis? Or are you in the la la zone of let's cut taxes more!
The obvious answer is to cut spending and impose a flat tax.

Do you think that is realistic? Could you get Congress to do it? And what flat tax would you impose?
Your tax plan to gain revenue would lose steam in short order as the economy would not sustain it lfor long. As the economy falls, so would revenue. It's just not sustainable as a solution.

My proposed taxes would cause the economy to fail? How do you figure that? Specifically what part?
Economy fail? Where did you get that?
The economy would not be able to increase revenues to the government for long with high tax rates. High tax rates pull capital from the economy and slow economic growth. Higher taxes would only work short term sapping recent growth, and not long enough to get the debt substantially down. Revenues would stall.
Growth is needed along with spending freeze/cuts. Also, a simpler tax system costs much less to oversee and comply with - fewer accountant and lawyer costs to the public and the government.

Did you read my tax rates? Other than additional tax brackets, the rates are the same as now. You think the millionaires and billionaires paying more in taxes would stall the economy? As I said, I believe my additional tax brackets are offset by a historically low capital gains tax. Keeping that low is the opposite of what you claim. It makes it easier for rich people to keep investing in the economy.

I think you saw my proposal and just decided to argue against it rather than read it.

And I've yet to see an alternative plan other than "flat tax."
2017 tax law:
"Income Tax Rates: The law retained the seven individual income tax brackets. The top rate fell from 39.6% to 37%, while the 33% bracket dropped to 32%, the 28% bracket to 24%, the 25% bracket to 22%, and the 15% bracket to 12%. The lowest bracket remained at 10%, and the 35% was unchanged."

You stated you want to add new tax brackets of higher rates beyond these. Yes, those would remove a good portion of capital investment from the economy. I am pretty sure that capital comes from income as well as capital gains. Where do you believe it comes from?

As to your last sentence, it makes no sense to only support a progressive tax yet complain that someone else might only support a flat tax.

This is incredible logic. I can't argue for one system and therefore against another?

Anyways my plan would have the vast majority of Americans paying the same tax rates. What drives the economy is not investors, but the spending class, who would not pay anything more, and actually less than in 2016 overall. So I fail to see why the economy would fall, as you say.

Any given plan to pay a debt does require that money that could go towards new investments, go towards the debt. This is like accounting -001. It is one thing to have an alternative plan to pay down the debt, but you are putting nothing forth. Is your plan to just let things continue until the dollar is devalued?

The argument of "we can't tax millionaires more because they won't have as much money" is just not a good one. If you know of a better plan to pay down the debt, I'd love to hear it.
Porteroso
How long do you want to ignore this user?
KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

jbbear said:

ScottS said:

For years we've heard the left politicians say the rich don't pay their fair share. Now you have Hunter not paying over $1M in taxes and pardoned so he doesn't have to pay. Wouldn't this be an example of the rich not paying their fair share??? How do the lefties on this board, who clearly voted for Biden, explain this????
The same way Dumbocrats fail to realize the top 10% earners pay the VAST majority of our federal taxes. Around 40% don't pay any federal taxes of any kind. But they can't spend us into oblivion unless they can convince their godless voters to increase taxes at all times.

They actually know, for the most part, that the upper class contributes the most. What they want is additional tax brackets, because making 5 million a year is different from making 5 billion a year, and nobody truly needs 5 billion. And it is a fair point, that someone making even 500 million a year is profiting off of many others, making much less money. Nobody making 50m is doing it with their own 2 hands.

I support a progressive tax system, and not only would I let the tax cuts expire in 2025, I'd also created 3 or 4 new tax brackets at 15m, 50m, 100m, and 250m. Conservatives seem to not understand basic accounting. Revenue needs to exceed spending in order to make a dent in 30 trillion dollars of debt.

That's entirely the wrong way of thinking. No one has any right to say how much someone else needs or how much is too much for someone else. It's quite literally none of my business how much money you make or how you use it. The only exceptions is that crimes must be punished & politicians should be punished didn't more if they violate the public trust & abuse their power (bribery, extortion, kickbacks, etc).

This entire discussion demonstrates the wisdom of the Founding Fathers Hefner they placed a ban on income taxes in the original constitution. All they do is make it easier for a government to rob the people, makes government richer & more powerful, and thus leads to more corruption & tyranny. Nothing good comes from it.

Anyone who truly wants freedom should prioritize the repeal of the 16th amendment.

It is none of your business how much I make, but it sure is the IRS's, and the government's. Of course this is just my opinion, only worth 1/330,000,000, as is yours, but you are entirely wrong. Your logic leads to the conclusion of a flat tax rate, which is absolutely, undeniably, backwards. Elon Musk should not pay the same tax rate as a single mother who has trouble feeding her children.

I am a big proponent of limiting the power of the federal government, and giving power back to the states, but there are certain obligations the federal government has now, that it did not have in the 1770s.

Anyone wanting to go back to that structure is simply ignorant of reality. There is no responsible way to end social security, end medicare/medicaid, or make all 50 states responsible for their own armed forces. And it would be dumb to try. Maybe social security could be phased out, but that is the only large expense that could be.

A progressive federal income tax is really the best solution, and conveniently, what we have. Once you accept that reality, the idea that billionaires should pay the sane rate as measly millionaires becomes silly.

So what is Elons fair share?

What % should he pay?

In my mind, with hardly any thought into it


This adequately describes how you live your entire life.

Regardless of the subject, regardless of the realities involved.

Still wonder who continues to provide your bubble.

Do you have any idea how to solve the National debt crisis? Or are you in the la la zone of let's cut taxes more!
The obvious answer is to cut spending and impose a flat tax.

Do you think that is realistic? Could you get Congress to do it? And what flat tax would you impose?


You asked for my solution.

I provided it.

Now you want guarantees.

Go away, once and for all.

So dumb. I'm asking you if you think your solution has a chance in hell. Of course it doesn't, it is no solution at all, but a dumb idea nobody would take seriously. And even if hell froze over and you got your flat tax, what % would it be?


You ask a question of me; yet answer it yourself to the negative.

Then move on to ask what % the flat tax would be despite previously rejecting the proposal as 'dumb'.

Either you are under the age of 17 or intellectually deficient.

Still wonder who pays your bills as you have made it transparently clear you are incapable of providing for yourself.



Do you have anything to contribute or not? How would you convince anyone to implement a flat tax? Forget what %. Are you able to post an answer, or just insults?
Do not need to 'convince ' the public.

Simply up to the federal government to implement the legislation.

Flat tax should be 15%.

Now GO AWAY and thank your Mom and Dad for continuing to pay your bills.

The public does not set tax rates. I'm not sure why you bring the public into the discussion, but no.

How would you convince Congress to implement a 15% flat tax? And given that that would be a massive reduction in taxes collected, how would you pay down the debt?

I am at a loss, I am putting forth the bare bones of a semblance of a plan to pay down the national debt, and here you guys are arguing to increase it. This is wild. Just goes to show you how little people understand finance.
Oldbear83
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Porteroso said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

jbbear said:

ScottS said:

For years we've heard the left politicians say the rich don't pay their fair share. Now you have Hunter not paying over $1M in taxes and pardoned so he doesn't have to pay. Wouldn't this be an example of the rich not paying their fair share??? How do the lefties on this board, who clearly voted for Biden, explain this????
The same way Dumbocrats fail to realize the top 10% earners pay the VAST majority of our federal taxes. Around 40% don't pay any federal taxes of any kind. But they can't spend us into oblivion unless they can convince their godless voters to increase taxes at all times.

They actually know, for the most part, that the upper class contributes the most. What they want is additional tax brackets, because making 5 million a year is different from making 5 billion a year, and nobody truly needs 5 billion. And it is a fair point, that someone making even 500 million a year is profiting off of many others, making much less money. Nobody making 50m is doing it with their own 2 hands.

I support a progressive tax system, and not only would I let the tax cuts expire in 2025, I'd also created 3 or 4 new tax brackets at 15m, 50m, 100m, and 250m. Conservatives seem to not understand basic accounting. Revenue needs to exceed spending in order to make a dent in 30 trillion dollars of debt.

That's entirely the wrong way of thinking. No one has any right to say how much someone else needs or how much is too much for someone else. It's quite literally none of my business how much money you make or how you use it. The only exceptions is that crimes must be punished & politicians should be punished didn't more if they violate the public trust & abuse their power (bribery, extortion, kickbacks, etc).

This entire discussion demonstrates the wisdom of the Founding Fathers Hefner they placed a ban on income taxes in the original constitution. All they do is make it easier for a government to rob the people, makes government richer & more powerful, and thus leads to more corruption & tyranny. Nothing good comes from it.

Anyone who truly wants freedom should prioritize the repeal of the 16th amendment.

It is none of your business how much I make, but it sure is the IRS's, and the government's. Of course this is just my opinion, only worth 1/330,000,000, as is yours, but you are entirely wrong. Your logic leads to the conclusion of a flat tax rate, which is absolutely, undeniably, backwards. Elon Musk should not pay the same tax rate as a single mother who has trouble feeding her children.

I am a big proponent of limiting the power of the federal government, and giving power back to the states, but there are certain obligations the federal government has now, that it did not have in the 1770s.

Anyone wanting to go back to that structure is simply ignorant of reality. There is no responsible way to end social security, end medicare/medicaid, or make all 50 states responsible for their own armed forces. And it would be dumb to try. Maybe social security could be phased out, but that is the only large expense that could be.

A progressive federal income tax is really the best solution, and conveniently, what we have. Once you accept that reality, the idea that billionaires should pay the sane rate as measly millionaires becomes silly.

So what is Elons fair share?

What % should he pay?

In my mind, with hardly any thought into it


This adequately describes how you live your entire life.

Regardless of the subject, regardless of the realities involved.

Still wonder who continues to provide your bubble.

Do you have any idea how to solve the National debt crisis? Or are you in the la la zone of let's cut taxes more!
The obvious answer is to cut spending and impose a flat tax.

Do you think that is realistic? Could you get Congress to do it? And what flat tax would you impose?
Your tax plan to gain revenue would lose steam in short order as the economy would not sustain it lfor long. As the economy falls, so would revenue. It's just not sustainable as a solution.

My proposed taxes would cause the economy to fail? How do you figure that? Specifically what part?
Economy fail? Where did you get that?
The economy would not be able to increase revenues to the government for long with high tax rates. High tax rates pull capital from the economy and slow economic growth. Higher taxes would only work short term sapping recent growth, and not long enough to get the debt substantially down. Revenues would stall.
Growth is needed along with spending freeze/cuts. Also, a simpler tax system costs much less to oversee and comply with - fewer accountant and lawyer costs to the public and the government.

Did you read my tax rates? Other than additional tax brackets, the rates are the same as now. You think the millionaires and billionaires paying more in taxes would stall the economy? As I said, I believe my additional tax brackets are offset by a historically low capital gains tax. Keeping that low is the opposite of what you claim. It makes it easier for rich people to keep investing in the economy.

I think you saw my proposal and just decided to argue against it rather than read it.

And I've yet to see an alternative plan other than "flat tax."
2017 tax law:
"Income Tax Rates: The law retained the seven individual income tax brackets. The top rate fell from 39.6% to 37%, while the 33% bracket dropped to 32%, the 28% bracket to 24%, the 25% bracket to 22%, and the 15% bracket to 12%. The lowest bracket remained at 10%, and the 35% was unchanged."

You stated you want to add new tax brackets of higher rates beyond these. Yes, those would remove a good portion of capital investment from the economy. I am pretty sure that capital comes from income as well as capital gains. Where do you believe it comes from?

As to your last sentence, it makes no sense to only support a progressive tax yet complain that someone else might only support a flat tax.

This is incredible logic. I can't argue for one system and therefore against another?

Anyways my plan would have the vast majority of Americans paying the same tax rates. What drives the economy is not investors, but the spending class, who would not pay anything more, and actually less than in 2016 overall. So I fail to see why the economy would fall, as you say.

Any given plan to pay a debt does require that money that could go towards new investments, go towards the debt. This is like accounting -001. It is one thing to have an alternative plan to pay down the debt, but you are putting nothing forth. Is your plan to just let things continue until the dollar is devalued?

The argument of "we can't tax millionaires more because they won't have as much money" is just not a good one. If you know of a better plan to pay down the debt, I'd love to hear it.
I'd like to respond to this latest post from Porteroso.

1. To your first comment, it's fine to like your system but if you refuse to seriously consider any system but the one you like, you are being an hypocrite to bark when someone else shows the same attitude in favor of the system he prefers.

2. You seem to imagine that a tax plan is good as long as everyone is mostly paying the same rate. There are two basic flaws in that reasoning, the first being that if a rate is too high it does harm and having that rate hit everyone does not make it a good rate; and the second problem is that we already get plenty of tax revenue, the real cause of our debt is obscene spending with no discipline in government. The real solution starts by taking a chainsaw to the federal government.

3. Hating millionaires just makes you look like a Luigi, Porteroso. Be better.
EatMoreSalmon
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Porteroso said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

jbbear said:

ScottS said:

For years we've heard the left politicians say the rich don't pay their fair share. Now you have Hunter not paying over $1M in taxes and pardoned so he doesn't have to pay. Wouldn't this be an example of the rich not paying their fair share??? How do the lefties on this board, who clearly voted for Biden, explain this????
The same way Dumbocrats fail to realize the top 10% earners pay the VAST majority of our federal taxes. Around 40% don't pay any federal taxes of any kind. But they can't spend us into oblivion unless they can convince their godless voters to increase taxes at all times.

They actually know, for the most part, that the upper class contributes the most. What they want is additional tax brackets, because making 5 million a year is different from making 5 billion a year, and nobody truly needs 5 billion. And it is a fair point, that someone making even 500 million a year is profiting off of many others, making much less money. Nobody making 50m is doing it with their own 2 hands.

I support a progressive tax system, and not only would I let the tax cuts expire in 2025, I'd also created 3 or 4 new tax brackets at 15m, 50m, 100m, and 250m. Conservatives seem to not understand basic accounting. Revenue needs to exceed spending in order to make a dent in 30 trillion dollars of debt.

That's entirely the wrong way of thinking. No one has any right to say how much someone else needs or how much is too much for someone else. It's quite literally none of my business how much money you make or how you use it. The only exceptions is that crimes must be punished & politicians should be punished didn't more if they violate the public trust & abuse their power (bribery, extortion, kickbacks, etc).

This entire discussion demonstrates the wisdom of the Founding Fathers Hefner they placed a ban on income taxes in the original constitution. All they do is make it easier for a government to rob the people, makes government richer & more powerful, and thus leads to more corruption & tyranny. Nothing good comes from it.

Anyone who truly wants freedom should prioritize the repeal of the 16th amendment.

It is none of your business how much I make, but it sure is the IRS's, and the government's. Of course this is just my opinion, only worth 1/330,000,000, as is yours, but you are entirely wrong. Your logic leads to the conclusion of a flat tax rate, which is absolutely, undeniably, backwards. Elon Musk should not pay the same tax rate as a single mother who has trouble feeding her children.

I am a big proponent of limiting the power of the federal government, and giving power back to the states, but there are certain obligations the federal government has now, that it did not have in the 1770s.

Anyone wanting to go back to that structure is simply ignorant of reality. There is no responsible way to end social security, end medicare/medicaid, or make all 50 states responsible for their own armed forces. And it would be dumb to try. Maybe social security could be phased out, but that is the only large expense that could be.

A progressive federal income tax is really the best solution, and conveniently, what we have. Once you accept that reality, the idea that billionaires should pay the sane rate as measly millionaires becomes silly.

So what is Elons fair share?

What % should he pay?

In my mind, with hardly any thought into it


This adequately describes how you live your entire life.

Regardless of the subject, regardless of the realities involved.

Still wonder who continues to provide your bubble.

Do you have any idea how to solve the National debt crisis? Or are you in the la la zone of let's cut taxes more!
The obvious answer is to cut spending and impose a flat tax.

Do you think that is realistic? Could you get Congress to do it? And what flat tax would you impose?
Your tax plan to gain revenue would lose steam in short order as the economy would not sustain it lfor long. As the economy falls, so would revenue. It's just not sustainable as a solution.

My proposed taxes would cause the economy to fail? How do you figure that? Specifically what part?
Economy fail? Where did you get that?
The economy would not be able to increase revenues to the government for long with high tax rates. High tax rates pull capital from the economy and slow economic growth. Higher taxes would only work short term sapping recent growth, and not long enough to get the debt substantially down. Revenues would stall.
Growth is needed along with spending freeze/cuts. Also, a simpler tax system costs much less to oversee and comply with - fewer accountant and lawyer costs to the public and the government.

Did you read my tax rates? Other than additional tax brackets, the rates are the same as now. You think the millionaires and billionaires paying more in taxes would stall the economy? As I said, I believe my additional tax brackets are offset by a historically low capital gains tax. Keeping that low is the opposite of what you claim. It makes it easier for rich people to keep investing in the economy.

I think you saw my proposal and just decided to argue against it rather than read it.

And I've yet to see an alternative plan other than "flat tax."
2017 tax law:
"Income Tax Rates: The law retained the seven individual income tax brackets. The top rate fell from 39.6% to 37%, while the 33% bracket dropped to 32%, the 28% bracket to 24%, the 25% bracket to 22%, and the 15% bracket to 12%. The lowest bracket remained at 10%, and the 35% was unchanged."

You stated you want to add new tax brackets of higher rates beyond these. Yes, those would remove a good portion of capital investment from the economy. I am pretty sure that capital comes from income as well as capital gains. Where do you believe it comes from?

As to your last sentence, it makes no sense to only support a progressive tax yet complain that someone else might only support a flat tax.

This is incredible logic. I can't argue for one system and therefore against another?
What are you talking about? You were the one claiming all you've seen as an alternative to your plan on here is a flat tax. That is the dismissive statement that says a flat tax is not worth bringing up anymore. You can argue your plan all you want. That's why we are here - to share and test ideas.

Anyways my plan would have the vast majority of Americans paying the same tax rates. What drives the economy is not investors, but the spending class, who would not pay anything more, and actually less than in 2016 overall. So I fail to see why the economy would fall, as you say.
The "spending class" is paying back investors and entrepreneurs for their risk and support of the service or product being bought. That money becomes the next capital investments. If the profits from all that spending are taxed at a higher rate particularly for those who would most likely reinvest and capitalize future growth - the economy will stall for lack of robust investment.

Any given plan to pay a debt does require that money that could go towards new investments, go towards the debt. This is like accounting -001. It is one thing to have an alternative plan to pay down the debt, but you are putting nothing forth. Is your plan to just let things continue until the dollar is devalued?
Any plan for the massive debt we have will obviously have to include a reduction in spending and a raising of revenues. No one here is advocating anything different. However, your plan cuts at the ability of the society to fund its future economic growth robustly will lower the ability of taxes to make a dent. More economic activity means more government revenue. Your plan will long term bring less revenue and do nothing to stop loopholes and endless deductions to keep from paying the actual tax rate. Are you an accountant by chance? I know a flat tax would cut into the present revenue stream of accountants, but would benefit everyone over the long haul - with spending limits on the federal government.

The argument of "we can't tax millionaires more because they won't have as much money" is just not a good one. If you know of a better plan to pay down the debt, I'd love to hear it.
See two paragraphs above as to why we shouldn't tax the rich like you suggest. Your hyperbole about "can't" tax the rich is not what anyone has said here. A flat tax has no loopholes or deductions to help said people either. They will pay more because they make more.
I don't usually write answers in the quoted post, but I'm not sure how you are obviously not understanding - unless you are coming from preconceived notions about those who support a flat tax plan
KaiBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

jbbear said:

ScottS said:

For years we've heard the left politicians say the rich don't pay their fair share. Now you have Hunter not paying over $1M in taxes and pardoned so he doesn't have to pay. Wouldn't this be an example of the rich not paying their fair share??? How do the lefties on this board, who clearly voted for Biden, explain this????
The same way Dumbocrats fail to realize the top 10% earners pay the VAST majority of our federal taxes. Around 40% don't pay any federal taxes of any kind. But they can't spend us into oblivion unless they can convince their godless voters to increase taxes at all times.

They actually know, for the most part, that the upper class contributes the most. What they want is additional tax brackets, because making 5 million a year is different from making 5 billion a year, and nobody truly needs 5 billion. And it is a fair point, that someone making even 500 million a year is profiting off of many others, making much less money. Nobody making 50m is doing it with their own 2 hands.

I support a progressive tax system, and not only would I let the tax cuts expire in 2025, I'd also created 3 or 4 new tax brackets at 15m, 50m, 100m, and 250m. Conservatives seem to not understand basic accounting. Revenue needs to exceed spending in order to make a dent in 30 trillion dollars of debt.

That's entirely the wrong way of thinking. No one has any right to say how much someone else needs or how much is too much for someone else. It's quite literally none of my business how much money you make or how you use it. The only exceptions is that crimes must be punished & politicians should be punished didn't more if they violate the public trust & abuse their power (bribery, extortion, kickbacks, etc).

This entire discussion demonstrates the wisdom of the Founding Fathers Hefner they placed a ban on income taxes in the original constitution. All they do is make it easier for a government to rob the people, makes government richer & more powerful, and thus leads to more corruption & tyranny. Nothing good comes from it.

Anyone who truly wants freedom should prioritize the repeal of the 16th amendment.

It is none of your business how much I make, but it sure is the IRS's, and the government's. Of course this is just my opinion, only worth 1/330,000,000, as is yours, but you are entirely wrong. Your logic leads to the conclusion of a flat tax rate, which is absolutely, undeniably, backwards. Elon Musk should not pay the same tax rate as a single mother who has trouble feeding her children.

I am a big proponent of limiting the power of the federal government, and giving power back to the states, but there are certain obligations the federal government has now, that it did not have in the 1770s.

Anyone wanting to go back to that structure is simply ignorant of reality. There is no responsible way to end social security, end medicare/medicaid, or make all 50 states responsible for their own armed forces. And it would be dumb to try. Maybe social security could be phased out, but that is the only large expense that could be.

A progressive federal income tax is really the best solution, and conveniently, what we have. Once you accept that reality, the idea that billionaires should pay the sane rate as measly millionaires becomes silly.

So what is Elons fair share?

What % should he pay?

In my mind, with hardly any thought into it


This adequately describes how you live your entire life.

Regardless of the subject, regardless of the realities involved.

Still wonder who continues to provide your bubble.

Do you have any idea how to solve the National debt crisis? Or are you in the la la zone of let's cut taxes more!
The obvious answer is to cut spending and impose a flat tax.

Do you think that is realistic? Could you get Congress to do it? And what flat tax would you impose?


You asked for my solution.

I provided it.

Now you want guarantees.

Go away, once and for all.

So dumb. I'm asking you if you think your solution has a chance in hell. Of course it doesn't, it is no solution at all, but a dumb idea nobody would take seriously. And even if hell froze over and you got your flat tax, what % would it be?


You ask a question of me; yet answer it yourself to the negative.

Then move on to ask what % the flat tax would be despite previously rejecting the proposal as 'dumb'.

Either you are under the age of 17 or intellectually deficient.

Still wonder who pays your bills as you have made it transparently clear you are incapable of providing for yourself.



Do you have anything to contribute or not? How would you convince anyone to implement a flat tax? Forget what %. Are you able to post an answer, or just insults?
Do not need to 'convince ' the public.

Simply up to the federal government to implement the legislation.

Flat tax should be 15%.

Now GO AWAY and thank your Mom and Dad for continuing to pay your bills.

The public does not set tax rates. I'm not sure why you bring the public into the discussion, but no.

How would you convince Congress to implement a 15% flat tax? And given that that would be a massive reduction in taxes collected, how would you pay down the debt?

I am at a loss, I am putting forth the bare bones of a semblance of a plan to pay down the national debt, and here you guys are arguing to increase it. This is wild. Just goes to show you how little people understand finance.


A. Do you even pay income taxes ? If so how much ?
B. When an individual pays six figures in income taxes ( along with an additional six figures in assorted other taxes ) he knows about fianc .
C. A flat tax of 15% would generate more revenue, not less.
FLBear5630
How long do you want to ignore this user?
KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

jbbear said:

ScottS said:

For years we'














Do you have anything to contribute or not? How would you convince anyone to implement a flat tax? Forget what %. Are you able to post an answer, or just insults?
Do not need to 'convince ' the public.

Simply up to the federal government to implement the legislation.

Flat tax should be 15%.

Now GO AWAY and thank your Mom and Dad for continuing to pay your bills.

The public does not set tax rates. I'm not sure why you bring the public into the discussion, but no.

How would you convince Congress to implement a 15% flat tax? And given that that would be a massive reduction in taxes collected, how would you pay down the debt?

I am at a loss, I am putting forth the bare bones of a semblance of a plan to pay down the national debt, and here you guys are arguing to increase it. This is wild. Just goes to show you how little people understand finance.


A. Do you even pay income taxes ? If so how much ?
B. When an individual pays six figures in income taxes ( along with an additional six figures in assorted other taxes ) he knows about fianc .
C. A flat tax of 15% would generate more revenue, not less.
The problem would be getting it passed. You would have push back from both sides, wealthy and poor.

Poor would say the 15% is disproportional in actual impact. So they would be against it.

Wealthy LIKE the tax code complicated AND with as many deductions as possible. They don't want an easy to figure out, flat rate.

The one thing ALL sides agree on is the higher Standard Deduction sucks. For many Americans, the unwashed working masses not you millionaires, the higher Standard Deduction has made it difficult to itemize. Top that with the ridiculously high bar for any medical to be counted and most Americans have a pretty "flat tax" in practice as there is no maneuvering ability.

Make a flat tax and the games will be played on the income side of the ledger by those that can. For most who work for someone else, it will just be about rate. W2s don't allow much wiggle.
KaiBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Flat taxes work where implemented.

Would special interests 'push' back ?

Of course.
historian
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Flat tax should be no more than 10%. At first, maybe the first 10k or 20k should be exempt until people are able to adjust, but in the find everyone should have skin in the game and be concerned about how politicians spend their money.
Porteroso
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Oldbear83 said:

Porteroso said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

EatMoreSalmon said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

jbbear said:

ScottS said:

For years we've heard the left politicians say the rich don't pay their fair share. Now you have Hunter not paying over $1M in taxes and pardoned so he doesn't have to pay. Wouldn't this be an example of the rich not paying their fair share??? How do the lefties on this board, who clearly voted for Biden, explain this????
The same way Dumbocrats fail to realize the top 10% earners pay the VAST majority of our federal taxes. Around 40% don't pay any federal taxes of any kind. But they can't spend us into oblivion unless they can convince their godless voters to increase taxes at all times.

They actually know, for the most part, that the upper class contributes the most. What they want is additional tax brackets, because making 5 million a year is different from making 5 billion a year, and nobody truly needs 5 billion. And it is a fair point, that someone making even 500 million a year is profiting off of many others, making much less money. Nobody making 50m is doing it with their own 2 hands.

I support a progressive tax system, and not only would I let the tax cuts expire in 2025, I'd also created 3 or 4 new tax brackets at 15m, 50m, 100m, and 250m. Conservatives seem to not understand basic accounting. Revenue needs to exceed spending in order to make a dent in 30 trillion dollars of debt.

That's entirely the wrong way of thinking. No one has any right to say how much someone else needs or how much is too much for someone else. It's quite literally none of my business how much money you make or how you use it. The only exceptions is that crimes must be punished & politicians should be punished didn't more if they violate the public trust & abuse their power (bribery, extortion, kickbacks, etc).

This entire discussion demonstrates the wisdom of the Founding Fathers Hefner they placed a ban on income taxes in the original constitution. All they do is make it easier for a government to rob the people, makes government richer & more powerful, and thus leads to more corruption & tyranny. Nothing good comes from it.

Anyone who truly wants freedom should prioritize the repeal of the 16th amendment.

It is none of your business how much I make, but it sure is the IRS's, and the government's. Of course this is just my opinion, only worth 1/330,000,000, as is yours, but you are entirely wrong. Your logic leads to the conclusion of a flat tax rate, which is absolutely, undeniably, backwards. Elon Musk should not pay the same tax rate as a single mother who has trouble feeding her children.

I am a big proponent of limiting the power of the federal government, and giving power back to the states, but there are certain obligations the federal government has now, that it did not have in the 1770s.

Anyone wanting to go back to that structure is simply ignorant of reality. There is no responsible way to end social security, end medicare/medicaid, or make all 50 states responsible for their own armed forces. And it would be dumb to try. Maybe social security could be phased out, but that is the only large expense that could be.

A progressive federal income tax is really the best solution, and conveniently, what we have. Once you accept that reality, the idea that billionaires should pay the sane rate as measly millionaires becomes silly.

So what is Elons fair share?

What % should he pay?

In my mind, with hardly any thought into it


This adequately describes how you live your entire life.

Regardless of the subject, regardless of the realities involved.

Still wonder who continues to provide your bubble.

Do you have any idea how to solve the National debt crisis? Or are you in the la la zone of let's cut taxes more!
The obvious answer is to cut spending and impose a flat tax.

Do you think that is realistic? Could you get Congress to do it? And what flat tax would you impose?
Your tax plan to gain revenue would lose steam in short order as the economy would not sustain it lfor long. As the economy falls, so would revenue. It's just not sustainable as a solution.

My proposed taxes would cause the economy to fail? How do you figure that? Specifically what part?
Economy fail? Where did you get that?
The economy would not be able to increase revenues to the government for long with high tax rates. High tax rates pull capital from the economy and slow economic growth. Higher taxes would only work short term sapping recent growth, and not long enough to get the debt substantially down. Revenues would stall.
Growth is needed along with spending freeze/cuts. Also, a simpler tax system costs much less to oversee and comply with - fewer accountant and lawyer costs to the public and the government.

Did you read my tax rates? Other than additional tax brackets, the rates are the same as now. You think the millionaires and billionaires paying more in taxes would stall the economy? As I said, I believe my additional tax brackets are offset by a historically low capital gains tax. Keeping that low is the opposite of what you claim. It makes it easier for rich people to keep investing in the economy.

I think you saw my proposal and just decided to argue against it rather than read it.

And I've yet to see an alternative plan other than "flat tax."
2017 tax law:
"Income Tax Rates: The law retained the seven individual income tax brackets. The top rate fell from 39.6% to 37%, while the 33% bracket dropped to 32%, the 28% bracket to 24%, the 25% bracket to 22%, and the 15% bracket to 12%. The lowest bracket remained at 10%, and the 35% was unchanged."

You stated you want to add new tax brackets of higher rates beyond these. Yes, those would remove a good portion of capital investment from the economy. I am pretty sure that capital comes from income as well as capital gains. Where do you believe it comes from?

As to your last sentence, it makes no sense to only support a progressive tax yet complain that someone else might only support a flat tax.

This is incredible logic. I can't argue for one system and therefore against another?

Anyways my plan would have the vast majority of Americans paying the same tax rates. What drives the economy is not investors, but the spending class, who would not pay anything more, and actually less than in 2016 overall. So I fail to see why the economy would fall, as you say.

Any given plan to pay a debt does require that money that could go towards new investments, go towards the debt. This is like accounting -001. It is one thing to have an alternative plan to pay down the debt, but you are putting nothing forth. Is your plan to just let things continue until the dollar is devalued?

The argument of "we can't tax millionaires more because they won't have as much money" is just not a good one. If you know of a better plan to pay down the debt, I'd love to hear it.
I'd like to respond to this latest post from Porteroso.

1. To your first comment, it's fine to like your system but if you refuse to seriously consider any system but the one you like, you are being an hypocrite to bark when someone else shows the same attitude in favor of the system he prefers.

2. You seem to imagine that a tax plan is good as long as everyone is mostly paying the same rate. There are two basic flaws in that reasoning, the first being that if a rate is too high it does harm and having that rate hit everyone does not make it a good rate; and the second problem is that we already get plenty of tax revenue, the real cause of our debt is obscene spending with no discipline in government. The real solution starts by taking a chainsaw to the federal government.

3. Hating millionaires just makes you look like a Luigi, Porteroso. Be better.
Did you read my posts though? I did offer a real solution to cutting spending, but because I'm not an extreme right wing zealot, I also won't ignore half the issue of the debt. Paying a debt is 2 things. Revenue and spending. Trying to only address spending is not a good plan, which is why I tied revenue to spending.

Convincing Congress to cut spending is such a losing proposition, because it's not like you need to convince Democrats, but Republicans as well. Both are complicit in the national debt issue. So you have to find a way t do it.

My take on cutting spending is Democrats would not agree to it unless they got something in return, and basically taxing Elon Musk more would be the bait. Adding additional tax brackets would only happen if Congress cut its spending each year by 20% until spending is 5% under projected revenue. That is massive amounts of reduced spending. They get their additional rich tax, if they cut spending. We could argue about percentages, or other forms of lib bait, but in the end, you have to dangle something to get Congress to cut its spending habits, and it has to be popular with the electorate, otherwise it just won't happen.

My whole point is that any plan has to be at least somewhat realistic. I just look at what libs are frothing at the mouth to do, and it's tax the rich more. Does anyone else have a realistic plan to get Congress to spend less?
Porteroso
How long do you want to ignore this user?
KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

jbbear said:

ScottS said:

For years we've heard the left politicians say the rich don't pay their fair share. Now you have Hunter not paying over $1M in taxes and pardoned so he doesn't have to pay. Wouldn't this be an example of the rich not paying their fair share??? How do the lefties on this board, who clearly voted for Biden, explain this????
The same way Dumbocrats fail to realize the top 10% earners pay the VAST majority of our federal taxes. Around 40% don't pay any federal taxes of any kind. But they can't spend us into oblivion unless they can convince their godless voters to increase taxes at all times.

They actually know, for the most part, that the upper class contributes the most. What they want is additional tax brackets, because making 5 million a year is different from making 5 billion a year, and nobody truly needs 5 billion. And it is a fair point, that someone making even 500 million a year is profiting off of many others, making much less money. Nobody making 50m is doing it with their own 2 hands.

I support a progressive tax system, and not only would I let the tax cuts expire in 2025, I'd also created 3 or 4 new tax brackets at 15m, 50m, 100m, and 250m. Conservatives seem to not understand basic accounting. Revenue needs to exceed spending in order to make a dent in 30 trillion dollars of debt.

That's entirely the wrong way of thinking. No one has any right to say how much someone else needs or how much is too much for someone else. It's quite literally none of my business how much money you make or how you use it. The only exceptions is that crimes must be punished & politicians should be punished didn't more if they violate the public trust & abuse their power (bribery, extortion, kickbacks, etc).

This entire discussion demonstrates the wisdom of the Founding Fathers Hefner they placed a ban on income taxes in the original constitution. All they do is make it easier for a government to rob the people, makes government richer & more powerful, and thus leads to more corruption & tyranny. Nothing good comes from it.

Anyone who truly wants freedom should prioritize the repeal of the 16th amendment.

It is none of your business how much I make, but it sure is the IRS's, and the government's. Of course this is just my opinion, only worth 1/330,000,000, as is yours, but you are entirely wrong. Your logic leads to the conclusion of a flat tax rate, which is absolutely, undeniably, backwards. Elon Musk should not pay the same tax rate as a single mother who has trouble feeding her children.

I am a big proponent of limiting the power of the federal government, and giving power back to the states, but there are certain obligations the federal government has now, that it did not have in the 1770s.

Anyone wanting to go back to that structure is simply ignorant of reality. There is no responsible way to end social security, end medicare/medicaid, or make all 50 states responsible for their own armed forces. And it would be dumb to try. Maybe social security could be phased out, but that is the only large expense that could be.

A progressive federal income tax is really the best solution, and conveniently, what we have. Once you accept that reality, the idea that billionaires should pay the sane rate as measly millionaires becomes silly.

So what is Elons fair share?

What % should he pay?

In my mind, with hardly any thought into it


This adequately describes how you live your entire life.

Regardless of the subject, regardless of the realities involved.

Still wonder who continues to provide your bubble.

Do you have any idea how to solve the National debt crisis? Or are you in the la la zone of let's cut taxes more!
The obvious answer is to cut spending and impose a flat tax.

Do you think that is realistic? Could you get Congress to do it? And what flat tax would you impose?


You asked for my solution.

I provided it.

Now you want guarantees.

Go away, once and for all.

So dumb. I'm asking you if you think your solution has a chance in hell. Of course it doesn't, it is no solution at all, but a dumb idea nobody would take seriously. And even if hell froze over and you got your flat tax, what % would it be?


You ask a question of me; yet answer it yourself to the negative.

Then move on to ask what % the flat tax would be despite previously rejecting the proposal as 'dumb'.

Either you are under the age of 17 or intellectually deficient.

Still wonder who pays your bills as you have made it transparently clear you are incapable of providing for yourself.



Do you have anything to contribute or not? How would you convince anyone to implement a flat tax? Forget what %. Are you able to post an answer, or just insults?
Do not need to 'convince ' the public.

Simply up to the federal government to implement the legislation.

Flat tax should be 15%.

Now GO AWAY and thank your Mom and Dad for continuing to pay your bills.

The public does not set tax rates. I'm not sure why you bring the public into the discussion, but no.

How would you convince Congress to implement a 15% flat tax? And given that that would be a massive reduction in taxes collected, how would you pay down the debt?

I am at a loss, I am putting forth the bare bones of a semblance of a plan to pay down the national debt, and here you guys are arguing to increase it. This is wild. Just goes to show you how little people understand finance.


A. Do you even pay income taxes ? If so how much ?
B. When an individual pays six figures in income taxes ( along with an additional six figures in assorted other taxes ) he knows about fianc .
C. A flat tax of 15% would generate more revenue, not less.
A flat tax of 15% with no deductions would generate less income than taxes today, plus it would plunge millions into poverty. 15% of America (49 million) live right above the poverty line, and they pay very little income tax. Going from 0-4% to 15% would be a massive financial strain.

Erasing the middle class does not work well for long term tax revenue.
nein51
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

jbbear said:

ScottS said:

For years we've heard the left politicians say the rich don't pay their fair share. Now you have Hunter not paying over $1M in taxes and pardoned so he doesn't have to pay. Wouldn't this be an example of the rich not paying their fair share??? How do the lefties on this board, who clearly voted for Biden, explain this????
The same way Dumbocrats fail to realize the top 10% earners pay the VAST majority of our federal taxes. Around 40% don't pay any federal taxes of any kind. But they can't spend us into oblivion unless they can convince their godless voters to increase taxes at all times.

They actually know, for the most part, that the upper class contributes the most. What they want is additional tax brackets, because making 5 million a year is different from making 5 billion a year, and nobody truly needs 5 billion. And it is a fair point, that someone making even 500 million a year is profiting off of many others, making much less money. Nobody making 50m is doing it with their own 2 hands.

I support a progressive tax system, and not only would I let the tax cuts expire in 2025, I'd also created 3 or 4 new tax brackets at 15m, 50m, 100m, and 250m. Conservatives seem to not understand basic accounting. Revenue needs to exceed spending in order to make a dent in 30 trillion dollars of debt.

That's entirely the wrong way of thinking. No one has any right to say how much someone else needs or how much is too much for someone else. It's quite literally none of my business how much money you make or how you use it. The only exceptions is that crimes must be punished & politicians should be punished didn't more if they violate the public trust & abuse their power (bribery, extortion, kickbacks, etc).

This entire discussion demonstrates the wisdom of the Founding Fathers Hefner they placed a ban on income taxes in the original constitution. All they do is make it easier for a government to rob the people, makes government richer & more powerful, and thus leads to more corruption & tyranny. Nothing good comes from it.

Anyone who truly wants freedom should prioritize the repeal of the 16th amendment.

It is none of your business how much I make, but it sure is the IRS's, and the government's. Of course this is just my opinion, only worth 1/330,000,000, as is yours, but you are entirely wrong. Your logic leads to the conclusion of a flat tax rate, which is absolutely, undeniably, backwards. Elon Musk should not pay the same tax rate as a single mother who has trouble feeding her children.

I am a big proponent of limiting the power of the federal government, and giving power back to the states, but there are certain obligations the federal government has now, that it did not have in the 1770s.

Anyone wanting to go back to that structure is simply ignorant of reality. There is no responsible way to end social security, end medicare/medicaid, or make all 50 states responsible for their own armed forces. And it would be dumb to try. Maybe social security could be phased out, but that is the only large expense that could be.

A progressive federal income tax is really the best solution, and conveniently, what we have. Once you accept that reality, the idea that billionaires should pay the sane rate as measly millionaires becomes silly.

So what is Elons fair share?

What % should he pay?

In my mind, with hardly any thought into it


This adequately describes how you live your entire life.

Regardless of the subject, regardless of the realities involved.

Still wonder who continues to provide your bubble.

Do you have any idea how to solve the National debt crisis? Or are you in the la la zone of let's cut taxes more!
The obvious answer is to cut spending and impose a flat tax.

Do you think that is realistic? Could you get Congress to do it? And what flat tax would you impose?


You asked for my solution.

I provided it.

Now you want guarantees.

Go away, once and for all.

So dumb. I'm asking you if you think your solution has a chance in hell. Of course it doesn't, it is no solution at all, but a dumb idea nobody would take seriously. And even if hell froze over and you got your flat tax, what % would it be?


You ask a question of me; yet answer it yourself to the negative.

Then move on to ask what % the flat tax would be despite previously rejecting the proposal as 'dumb'.

Either you are under the age of 17 or intellectually deficient.

Still wonder who pays your bills as you have made it transparently clear you are incapable of providing for yourself.



Do you have anything to contribute or not? How would you convince anyone to implement a flat tax? Forget what %. Are you able to post an answer, or just insults?
Do not need to 'convince ' the public.

Simply up to the federal government to implement the legislation.

Flat tax should be 15%.

Now GO AWAY and thank your Mom and Dad for continuing to pay your bills.

The public does not set tax rates. I'm not sure why you bring the public into the discussion, but no.

How would you convince Congress to implement a 15% flat tax? And given that that would be a massive reduction in taxes collected, how would you pay down the debt?

I am at a loss, I am putting forth the bare bones of a semblance of a plan to pay down the national debt, and here you guys are arguing to increase it. This is wild. Just goes to show you how little people understand finance.


A. Do you even pay income taxes ? If so how much ?
B. When an individual pays six figures in income taxes ( along with an additional six figures in assorted other taxes ) he knows about fianc .
C. A flat tax of 15% would generate more revenue, not less.
A flat tax of 15% with no deductions would generate less income than taxes today, plus it would plunge millions into poverty. 15% of America (49 million) live right above the poverty line, and they pay very little income tax. Going from 0-4% to 15% would be a massive financial strain.

Erasing the middle class does not work well for long term tax revenue.

Flat tax only works in conjunction with large VAT or consumption taxes. Like 25%+
KaiBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

jbbear said:

ScottS said:

For years we've heard the left politicians say the rich don't pay their fair share. Now you have Hunter not paying over $1M in taxes and pardoned so he doesn't have to pay. Wouldn't this be an example of the rich not paying their fair share??? How do the lefties on this board, who clearly voted for Biden, explain this????
The same way Dumbocrats fail to realize the top 10% earners pay the VAST majority of our federal taxes. Around 40% don't pay any federal taxes of any kind. But they can't spend us into oblivion unless they can convince their godless voters to increase taxes at all times.

They actually know, for the most part, that the upper class contributes the most. What they want is additional tax brackets, because making 5 million a year is different from making 5 billion a year, and nobody truly needs 5 billion. And it is a fair point, that someone making even 500 million a year is profiting off of many others, making much less money. Nobody making 50m is doing it with their own 2 hands.

I support a progressive tax system, and not only would I let the tax cuts expire in 2025, I'd also created 3 or 4 new tax brackets at 15m, 50m, 100m, and 250m. Conservatives seem to not understand basic accounting. Revenue needs to exceed spending in order to make a dent in 30 trillion dollars of debt.

That's entirely the wrong way of thinking. No one has any right to say how much someone else needs or how much is too much for someone else. It's quite literally none of my business how much money you make or how you use it. The only exceptions is that crimes must be punished & politicians should be punished didn't more if they violate the public trust & abuse their power (bribery, extortion, kickbacks, etc).

This entire discussion demonstrates the wisdom of the Founding Fathers Hefner they placed a ban on income taxes in the original constitution. All they do is make it easier for a government to rob the people, makes government richer & more powerful, and thus leads to more corruption & tyranny. Nothing good comes from it.

Anyone who truly wants freedom should prioritize the repeal of the 16th amendment.

It is none of your business how much I make, but it sure is the IRS's, and the government's. Of course this is just my opinion, only worth 1/330,000,000, as is yours, but you are entirely wrong. Your logic leads to the conclusion of a flat tax rate, which is absolutely, undeniably, backwards. Elon Musk should not pay the same tax rate as a single mother who has trouble feeding her children.

I am a big proponent of limiting the power of the federal government, and giving power back to the states, but there are certain obligations the federal government has now, that it did not have in the 1770s.

Anyone wanting to go back to that structure is simply ignorant of reality. There is no responsible way to end social security, end medicare/medicaid, or make all 50 states responsible for their own armed forces. And it would be dumb to try. Maybe social security could be phased out, but that is the only large expense that could be.

A progressive federal income tax is really the best solution, and conveniently, what we have. Once you accept that reality, the idea that billionaires should pay the sane rate as measly millionaires becomes silly.

So what is Elons fair share?

What % should he pay?

In my mind, with hardly any thought into it


This adequately describes how you live your entire life.

Regardless of the subject, regardless of the realities involved.

Still wonder who continues to provide your bubble.

Do you have any idea how to solve the National debt crisis? Or are you in the la la zone of let's cut taxes more!
The obvious answer is to cut spending and impose a flat tax.

Do you think that is realistic? Could you get Congress to do it? And what flat tax would you impose?


You asked for my solution.

I provided it.

Now you want guarantees.

Go away, once and for all.

So dumb. I'm asking you if you think your solution has a chance in hell. Of course it doesn't, it is no solution at all, but a dumb idea nobody would take seriously. And even if hell froze over and you got your flat tax, what % would it be?


You ask a question of me; yet answer it yourself to the negative.

Then move on to ask what % the flat tax would be despite previously rejecting the proposal as 'dumb'.

Either you are under the age of 17 or intellectually deficient.

Still wonder who pays your bills as you have made it transparently clear you are incapable of providing for yourself.



Do you have anything to contribute or not? How would you convince anyone to implement a flat tax? Forget what %. Are you able to post an answer, or just insults?
Do not need to 'convince ' the public.

Simply up to the federal government to implement the legislation.

Flat tax should be 15%.

Now GO AWAY and thank your Mom and Dad for continuing to pay your bills.

The public does not set tax rates. I'm not sure why you bring the public into the discussion, but no.

How would you convince Congress to implement a 15% flat tax? And given that that would be a massive reduction in taxes collected, how would you pay down the debt?

I am at a loss, I am putting forth the bare bones of a semblance of a plan to pay down the national debt, and here you guys are arguing to increase it. This is wild. Just goes to show you how little people understand finance.


A. Do you even pay income taxes ? If so how much ?
B. When an individual pays six figures in income taxes ( along with an additional six figures in assorted other taxes ) he knows about fianc .
C. A flat tax of 15% would generate more revenue, not less.
A flat tax of 15% with no deductions would generate less income than taxes today, plus it would plunge millions into poverty. 15% of America (49 million) live right above the poverty line, and they pay very little income tax. Going from 0-4% to 15% would be a massive financial strain.

Erasing the middle class does not work well for long term tax revenue.


Still another clueless post.

Doubt you pay much income tax if any at all.

But it's a free message board.


Type away.
historian
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historian
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There is nothing realistic about raising taxes. The rich already pay far more in taxes than any other bracket. Elon Musk is an excellent example. Until this year, he held the record for paying largest tax bill. (Yes, someone actually paid more!). Absolutely no one benefits from corrupt politicians & incompetent bureaucrats stealing more money from the taxpayers or any subset of them.
FLBear5630
How long do you want to ignore this user?
historian said:

There is nothing realistic about raising taxes. The rich already pay far more in taxes than any other bracket. Elon Musk is an excellent example. Until this year, he held the record for paying largest tax bill. (Yes, someone actually paid more!). Absolutely no one benefits from corrupt politicians & incompetent bureaucrats stealing more money from the taxpayers or any subset of them.
Believe me I am not a fan of more taxes, which is why I work with toll roads. User fees I am fine, you don't want to use it - don't. They are funded with revenue bonds and paid back through the user fee revenue. We go to NY and sell bonds on the projects, we have bond ratings and are held to investment level scrutiny. Clean, no taxes, and voluntary

That said, it does take money to operate a nation. It has to come from some where and unlike 1845 tariffs are not enough even if you go bare bones.

So, serious question. What is an acceptable method of getting National revenue? Defense and Transportation Safety alone would be too much for tariffs to cover AND be market constraint.
historian
How long do you want to ignore this user?
First of all government must be trimmed down dramatically. It will be much more affordable when the hundreds of worthless, wasteful, & fraudulent agencies are eliminated & the essential ones are trimmed of fat and reduced to their primary responsibilities. Getting rid of DEI is a necessary first step, although a tiny one. There are many other examples of stupidity that don't deserve one penny of taxpayer funding.

Far more important and more difficult will be entitlement reform. Those programs drive up the budget more than anything else. There are ways to fix these things but it will require hard choices and a real determination to get it done. There is little reason to expect anyone in Washington will be able to do much.

As for taxes, I would prefer a national sales tax of 10% on everything except food or medicine and other essentials. Get rid of the income tax completely because it is unjust and results in many tyrannical abuses & the insane explosion of govt. I don't seriously believe it will happen. This is the ideal.

I am not very optimistic about disaster being averted. With a $36 trillion debt growing by $1 trillion every 100 days, it must be addressed.
FLBear5630
How long do you want to ignore this user?
historian said:

First of all government must be trimmed down dramatically. It will be much more affordable when the hundreds of worthless, wasteful, & fraudulent agencies are eliminated & the essential ones are trimmed of fat and reduced to their primary responsibilities. Getting rid of DEI is a necessary first step, although a tiny one. There are many other examples of stupidity that don't deserve one penny of taxpayer funding.

Far more important and more difficult will be entitlement reform. Those programs drive up the budget more than anything else. There are ways to fix these things but it will require hard choices and a real determination to get it done. There is little reason to expect anyone in Washington will be able to do much.

As for taxes, I would prefer a national sales tax of 10% on everything except food or medicine and other essentials. Get rid of the income tax completely because it is unjust and results in many tyrannical abuses & the insane explosion of govt. I don't seriously believe it will happen. This is the ideal.

I am not very optimistic about disaster being averted. With a $36 trillion debt growing by $1 trillion every 100 days, it must be addressed.
Once again, I am talking Agencies and jobs, you come back with reforms. I am all for reforms, no issues. Stuff like DEI and other programs that need to be eliminated no problem. That can easily be done through the Sec of each Agency and a memo.

I am talking about doing away with Agencies and jobs as a whole without any analysis into what they do and who will do it after. If the Private Sector, it will not be cheaper (never is). Vivek especially has made comments that he believes he can just eliminate whole classes of jobs with no ramifications. Whether you agree or not, every Agency has a mission and every job has a job description. If they are determined to not be a Federal responsibility, no issue. Then the question is whose responsibility, is it? Do you really want your Federal bill to be less but get nailed at the State level? Or find out that it is now your Church's responsibility under charity (with the Std Deduction so high you won't even get tax benefit). The whole idea is to lower cost, not shift it.

Musk just wants to get rid of any oversight over his activities, I will bet the amount he gets from the Govt does not decrease. Only who gets to approve his flight plans, biotech, and AI.
GrowlTowel
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Instead of being all worried about what might happen, why not wait to see if all your nightmares come true. Musk can only make recommendations and there will be plenty of checks on those, generally from the obstructionist republicans.
Porteroso
How long do you want to ignore this user?
historian said:

First of all government must be trimmed down dramatically. It will be much more affordable when the hundreds of worthless, wasteful, & fraudulent agencies are eliminated & the essential ones are trimmed of fat and reduced to their primary responsibilities. Getting rid of DEI is a necessary first step, although a tiny one. There are many other examples of stupidity that don't deserve one penny of taxpayer funding.

Far more important and more difficult will be entitlement reform. Those programs drive up the budget more than anything else. There are ways to fix these things but it will require hard choices and a real determination to get it done. There is little reason to expect anyone in Washington will be able to do much.

As for taxes, I would prefer a national sales tax of 10% on everything except food or medicine and other essentials. Get rid of the income tax completely because it is unjust and results in many tyrannical abuses & the insane explosion of govt. I don't seriously believe it will happen. This is the ideal.

I am not very optimistic about disaster being averted. With a $36 trillion debt growing by $1 trillion every 100 days, it must be addressed.

What kind of cuts do you want to entitlements? The issue with cutting them is that hundreds of millions rely upon them. There is no responsible way to cut them for anyone using them now. Any responsible reform would not see immediate benefit, but likely would cut benefits for younger generations who haven't paid much in yet, but would need to continue paying to keep the programs afloat...

There are not many fraudulent government agencies, unless your language is English-Zealot. These government agencies are also not a significant portion of the budget. So when you say major trimming of the federal government, that needs to result in major reduction of the budget, otherwise you are just eliminating things Americans depend on, for little gain.

That said,I'm also for the trimming down of the federal government, in the form of a major revision to the interstate commerce act, which would clarify and limit the federal government's role, and also downsizing te department of education, giving most of that money going to federal employees straight into the block grants. I'd want to spend more, not less, on education, but it should be spent on teaching students, not lifelong government enoyees sucking up a good chunk.
Porteroso
How long do you want to ignore this user?
nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

jbbear said:

ScottS said:

For years we've heard the left politicians say the rich don't pay their fair share. Now you have Hunter not paying over $1M in taxes and pardoned so he doesn't have to pay. Wouldn't this be an example of the rich not paying their fair share??? How do the lefties on this board, who clearly voted for Biden, explain this????
The same way Dumbocrats fail to realize the top 10% earners pay the VAST majority of our federal taxes. Around 40% don't pay any federal taxes of any kind. But they can't spend us into oblivion unless they can convince their godless voters to increase taxes at all times.

They actually know, for the most part, that the upper class contributes the most. What they want is additional tax brackets, because making 5 million a year is different from making 5 billion a year, and nobody truly needs 5 billion. And it is a fair point, that someone making even 500 million a year is profiting off of many others, making much less money. Nobody making 50m is doing it with their own 2 hands.

I support a progressive tax system, and not only would I let the tax cuts expire in 2025, I'd also created 3 or 4 new tax brackets at 15m, 50m, 100m, and 250m. Conservatives seem to not understand basic accounting. Revenue needs to exceed spending in order to make a dent in 30 trillion dollars of debt.

That's entirely the wrong way of thinking. No one has any right to say how much someone else needs or how much is too much for someone else. It's quite literally none of my business how much money you make or how you use it. The only exceptions is that crimes must be punished & politicians should be punished didn't more if they violate the public trust & abuse their power (bribery, extortion, kickbacks, etc).

This entire discussion demonstrates the wisdom of the Founding Fathers Hefner they placed a ban on income taxes in the original constitution. All they do is make it easier for a government to rob the people, makes government richer & more powerful, and thus leads to more corruption & tyranny. Nothing good comes from it.

Anyone who truly wants freedom should prioritize the repeal of the 16th amendment.

It is none of your business how much I make, but it sure is the IRS's, and the government's. Of course this is just my opinion, only worth 1/330,000,000, as is yours, but you are entirely wrong. Your logic leads to the conclusion of a flat tax rate, which is absolutely, undeniably, backwards. Elon Musk should not pay the same tax rate as a single mother who has trouble feeding her children.

I am a big proponent of limiting the power of the federal government, and giving power back to the states, but there are certain obligations the federal government has now, that it did not have in the 1770s.

Anyone wanting to go back to that structure is simply ignorant of reality. There is no responsible way to end social security, end medicare/medicaid, or make all 50 states responsible for their own armed forces. And it would be dumb to try. Maybe social security could be phased out, but that is the only large expense that could be.

A progressive federal income tax is really the best solution, and conveniently, what we have. Once you accept that reality, the idea that billionaires should pay the sane rate as measly millionaires becomes silly.

So what is Elons fair share?

What % should he pay?

In my mind, with hardly any thought into it


This adequately describes how you live your entire life.

Regardless of the subject, regardless of the realities involved.

Still wonder who continues to provide your bubble.

Do you have any idea how to solve the National debt crisis? Or are you in the la la zone of let's cut taxes more!
The obvious answer is to cut spending and impose a flat tax.

Do you think that is realistic? Could you get Congress to do it? And what flat tax would you impose?


You asked for my solution.

I provided it.

Now you want guarantees.

Go away, once and for all.

So dumb. I'm asking you if you think your solution has a chance in hell. Of course it doesn't, it is no solution at all, but a dumb idea nobody would take seriously. And even if hell froze over and you got your flat tax, what % would it be?


You ask a question of me; yet answer it yourself to the negative.

Then move on to ask what % the flat tax would be despite previously rejecting the proposal as 'dumb'.

Either you are under the age of 17 or intellectually deficient.

Still wonder who pays your bills as you have made it transparently clear you are incapable of providing for yourself.



Do you have anything to contribute or not? How would you convince anyone to implement a flat tax? Forget what %. Are you able to post an answer, or just insults?
Do not need to 'convince ' the public.

Simply up to the federal government to implement the legislation.

Flat tax should be 15%.

Now GO AWAY and thank your Mom and Dad for continuing to pay your bills.

The public does not set tax rates. I'm not sure why you bring the public into the discussion, but no.

How would you convince Congress to implement a 15% flat tax? And given that that would be a massive reduction in taxes collected, how would you pay down the debt?

I am at a loss, I am putting forth the bare bones of a semblance of a plan to pay down the national debt, and here you guys are arguing to increase it. This is wild. Just goes to show you how little people understand finance.


A. Do you even pay income taxes ? If so how much ?
B. When an individual pays six figures in income taxes ( along with an additional six figures in assorted other taxes ) he knows about fianc .
C. A flat tax of 15% would generate more revenue, not less.
A flat tax of 15% with no deductions would generate less income than taxes today, plus it would plunge millions into poverty. 15% of America (49 million) live right above the poverty line, and they pay very little income tax. Going from 0-4% to 15% would be a massive financial strain.

Erasing the middle class does not work well for long term tax revenue.

Flat tax only works in conjunction with large VAT or consumption taxes. Like 25%+

Even more people going into poverty.
Porteroso
How long do you want to ignore this user?
KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

jbbear said:

ScottS said:

For years we've heard the left politicians say the rich don't pay their fair share. Now you have Hunter not paying over $1M in taxes and pardoned so he doesn't have to pay. Wouldn't this be an example of the rich not paying their fair share??? How do the lefties on this board, who clearly voted for Biden, explain this????
The same way Dumbocrats fail to realize the top 10% earners pay the VAST majority of our federal taxes. Around 40% don't pay any federal taxes of any kind. But they can't spend us into oblivion unless they can convince their godless voters to increase taxes at all times.

They actually know, for the most part, that the upper class contributes the most. What they want is additional tax brackets, because making 5 million a year is different from making 5 billion a year, and nobody truly needs 5 billion. And it is a fair point, that someone making even 500 million a year is profiting off of many others, making much less money. Nobody making 50m is doing it with their own 2 hands.

I support a progressive tax system, and not only would I let the tax cuts expire in 2025, I'd also created 3 or 4 new tax brackets at 15m, 50m, 100m, and 250m. Conservatives seem to not understand basic accounting. Revenue needs to exceed spending in order to make a dent in 30 trillion dollars of debt.

That's entirely the wrong way of thinking. No one has any right to say how much someone else needs or how much is too much for someone else. It's quite literally none of my business how much money you make or how you use it. The only exceptions is that crimes must be punished & politicians should be punished didn't more if they violate the public trust & abuse their power (bribery, extortion, kickbacks, etc).

This entire discussion demonstrates the wisdom of the Founding Fathers Hefner they placed a ban on income taxes in the original constitution. All they do is make it easier for a government to rob the people, makes government richer & more powerful, and thus leads to more corruption & tyranny. Nothing good comes from it.

Anyone who truly wants freedom should prioritize the repeal of the 16th amendment.

It is none of your business how much I make, but it sure is the IRS's, and the government's. Of course this is just my opinion, only worth 1/330,000,000, as is yours, but you are entirely wrong. Your logic leads to the conclusion of a flat tax rate, which is absolutely, undeniably, backwards. Elon Musk should not pay the same tax rate as a single mother who has trouble feeding her children.

I am a big proponent of limiting the power of the federal government, and giving power back to the states, but there are certain obligations the federal government has now, that it did not have in the 1770s.

Anyone wanting to go back to that structure is simply ignorant of reality. There is no responsible way to end social security, end medicare/medicaid, or make all 50 states responsible for their own armed forces. And it would be dumb to try. Maybe social security could be phased out, but that is the only large expense that could be.

A progressive federal income tax is really the best solution, and conveniently, what we have. Once you accept that reality, the idea that billionaires should pay the sane rate as measly millionaires becomes silly.

So what is Elons fair share?

What % should he pay?

In my mind, with hardly any thought into it


This adequately describes how you live your entire life.

Regardless of the subject, regardless of the realities involved.

Still wonder who continues to provide your bubble.

Do you have any idea how to solve the National debt crisis? Or are you in the la la zone of let's cut taxes more!
The obvious answer is to cut spending and impose a flat tax.

Do you think that is realistic? Could you get Congress to do it? And what flat tax would you impose?


You asked for my solution.

I provided it.

Now you want guarantees.

Go away, once and for all.

So dumb. I'm asking you if you think your solution has a chance in hell. Of course it doesn't, it is no solution at all, but a dumb idea nobody would take seriously. And even if hell froze over and you got your flat tax, what % would it be?


You ask a question of me; yet answer it yourself to the negative.

Then move on to ask what % the flat tax would be despite previously rejecting the proposal as 'dumb'.

Either you are under the age of 17 or intellectually deficient.

Still wonder who pays your bills as you have made it transparently clear you are incapable of providing for yourself.



Do you have anything to contribute or not? How would you convince anyone to implement a flat tax? Forget what %. Are you able to post an answer, or just insults?
Do not need to 'convince ' the public.

Simply up to the federal government to implement the legislation.

Flat tax should be 15%.

Now GO AWAY and thank your Mom and Dad for continuing to pay your bills.

The public does not set tax rates. I'm not sure why you bring the public into the discussion, but no.

How would you convince Congress to implement a 15% flat tax? And given that that would be a massive reduction in taxes collected, how would you pay down the debt?

I am at a loss, I am putting forth the bare bones of a semblance of a plan to pay down the national debt, and here you guys are arguing to increase it. This is wild. Just goes to show you how little people understand finance.


A. Do you even pay income taxes ? If so how much ?
B. When an individual pays six figures in income taxes ( along with an additional six figures in assorted other taxes ) he knows about fianc .
C. A flat tax of 15% would generate more revenue, not less.
A flat tax of 15% with no deductions would generate less income than taxes today, plus it would plunge millions into poverty. 15% of America (49 million) live right above the poverty line, and they pay very little income tax. Going from 0-4% to 15% would be a massive financial strain.

Erasing the middle class does not work well for long term tax revenue.


Still another clueless post.

Doubt you pay much income tax if any at all.

But it's a free message board.


Type away.

Did you mean to add content before you posted? You probably have 15 posts in this thread and they are all just insults. Can you come up with a real plan to pay down the debt, or not?
Porteroso
How long do you want to ignore this user?
historian said:

There is nothing realistic about raising taxes. The rich already pay far more in taxes than any other bracket. Elon Musk is an excellent example. Until this year, he held the record for paying largest tax bill. (Yes, someone actually paid more!). Absolutely no one benefits from corrupt politicians & incompetent bureaucrats stealing more money from the taxpayers or any subset of them.

What does your first sentence even mean? And you realize that the vast majority of the federal budget goes to.... Americans, right?
nein51
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

jbbear said:

ScottS said:

For years we've heard the left politicians say the rich don't pay their fair share. Now you have Hunter not paying over $1M in taxes and pardoned so he doesn't have to pay. Wouldn't this be an example of the rich not paying their fair share??? How do the lefties on this board, who clearly voted for Biden, explain this????
The same way Dumbocrats fail to realize the top 10% earners pay the VAST majority of our federal taxes. Around 40% don't pay any federal taxes of any kind. But they can't spend us into oblivion unless they can convince their godless voters to increase taxes at all times.

They actually know, for the most part, that the upper class contributes the most. What they want is additional tax brackets, because making 5 million a year is different from making 5 billion a year, and nobody truly needs 5 billion. And it is a fair point, that someone making even 500 million a year is profiting off of many others, making much less money. Nobody making 50m is doing it with their own 2 hands.

I support a progressive tax system, and not only would I let the tax cuts expire in 2025, I'd also created 3 or 4 new tax brackets at 15m, 50m, 100m, and 250m. Conservatives seem to not understand basic accounting. Revenue needs to exceed spending in order to make a dent in 30 trillion dollars of debt.

That's entirely the wrong way of thinking. No one has any right to say how much someone else needs or how much is too much for someone else. It's quite literally none of my business how much money you make or how you use it. The only exceptions is that crimes must be punished & politicians should be punished didn't more if they violate the public trust & abuse their power (bribery, extortion, kickbacks, etc).

This entire discussion demonstrates the wisdom of the Founding Fathers Hefner they placed a ban on income taxes in the original constitution. All they do is make it easier for a government to rob the people, makes government richer & more powerful, and thus leads to more corruption & tyranny. Nothing good comes from it.

Anyone who truly wants freedom should prioritize the repeal of the 16th amendment.

It is none of your business how much I make, but it sure is the IRS's, and the government's. Of course this is just my opinion, only worth 1/330,000,000, as is yours, but you are entirely wrong. Your logic leads to the conclusion of a flat tax rate, which is absolutely, undeniably, backwards. Elon Musk should not pay the same tax rate as a single mother who has trouble feeding her children.

I am a big proponent of limiting the power of the federal government, and giving power back to the states, but there are certain obligations the federal government has now, that it did not have in the 1770s.

Anyone wanting to go back to that structure is simply ignorant of reality. There is no responsible way to end social security, end medicare/medicaid, or make all 50 states responsible for their own armed forces. And it would be dumb to try. Maybe social security could be phased out, but that is the only large expense that could be.

A progressive federal income tax is really the best solution, and conveniently, what we have. Once you accept that reality, the idea that billionaires should pay the sane rate as measly millionaires becomes silly.

So what is Elons fair share?

What % should he pay?

In my mind, with hardly any thought into it


This adequately describes how you live your entire life.

Regardless of the subject, regardless of the realities involved.

Still wonder who continues to provide your bubble.

Do you have any idea how to solve the National debt crisis? Or are you in the la la zone of let's cut taxes more!
The obvious answer is to cut spending and impose a flat tax.

Do you think that is realistic? Could you get Congress to do it? And what flat tax would you impose?


You asked for my solution.

I provided it.

Now you want guarantees.

Go away, once and for all.

So dumb. I'm asking you if you think your solution has a chance in hell. Of course it doesn't, it is no solution at all, but a dumb idea nobody would take seriously. And even if hell froze over and you got your flat tax, what % would it be?


You ask a question of me; yet answer it yourself to the negative.

Then move on to ask what % the flat tax would be despite previously rejecting the proposal as 'dumb'.

Either you are under the age of 17 or intellectually deficient.

Still wonder who pays your bills as you have made it transparently clear you are incapable of providing for yourself.



Do you have anything to contribute or not? How would you convince anyone to implement a flat tax? Forget what %. Are you able to post an answer, or just insults?
Do not need to 'convince ' the public.

Simply up to the federal government to implement the legislation.

Flat tax should be 15%.

Now GO AWAY and thank your Mom and Dad for continuing to pay your bills.

The public does not set tax rates. I'm not sure why you bring the public into the discussion, but no.

How would you convince Congress to implement a 15% flat tax? And given that that would be a massive reduction in taxes collected, how would you pay down the debt?

I am at a loss, I am putting forth the bare bones of a semblance of a plan to pay down the national debt, and here you guys are arguing to increase it. This is wild. Just goes to show you how little people understand finance.


A. Do you even pay income taxes ? If so how much ?
B. When an individual pays six figures in income taxes ( along with an additional six figures in assorted other taxes ) he knows about fianc .
C. A flat tax of 15% would generate more revenue, not less.
A flat tax of 15% with no deductions would generate less income than taxes today, plus it would plunge millions into poverty. 15% of America (49 million) live right above the poverty line, and they pay very little income tax. Going from 0-4% to 15% would be a massive financial strain.

Erasing the middle class does not work well for long term tax revenue.

Flat tax only works in conjunction with large VAT or consumption taxes. Like 25%+

Even more people going into poverty.

I'm not arguing for or against. Simply stating a flat tax, at the levels mentioned, don't work unless there are really, really large consumption taxes or there just isn't enough revenue generated
Porteroso
How long do you want to ignore this user?
nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

jbbear said:

ScottS said:

For years we've heard the left politicians say the rich don't pay their fair share. Now you have Hunter not paying over $1M in taxes and pardoned so he doesn't have to pay. Wouldn't this be an example of the rich not paying their fair share??? How do the lefties on this board, who clearly voted for Biden, explain this????
The same way Dumbocrats fail to realize the top 10% earners pay the VAST majority of our federal taxes. Around 40% don't pay any federal taxes of any kind. But they can't spend us into oblivion unless they can convince their godless voters to increase taxes at all times.

They actually know, for the most part, that the upper class contributes the most. What they want is additional tax brackets, because making 5 million a year is different from making 5 billion a year, and nobody truly needs 5 billion. And it is a fair point, that someone making even 500 million a year is profiting off of many others, making much less money. Nobody making 50m is doing it with their own 2 hands.

I support a progressive tax system, and not only would I let the tax cuts expire in 2025, I'd also created 3 or 4 new tax brackets at 15m, 50m, 100m, and 250m. Conservatives seem to not understand basic accounting. Revenue needs to exceed spending in order to make a dent in 30 trillion dollars of debt.

That's entirely the wrong way of thinking. No one has any right to say how much someone else needs or how much is too much for someone else. It's quite literally none of my business how much money you make or how you use it. The only exceptions is that crimes must be punished & politicians should be punished didn't more if they violate the public trust & abuse their power (bribery, extortion, kickbacks, etc).

This entire discussion demonstrates the wisdom of the Founding Fathers Hefner they placed a ban on income taxes in the original constitution. All they do is make it easier for a government to rob the people, makes government richer & more powerful, and thus leads to more corruption & tyranny. Nothing good comes from it.

Anyone who truly wants freedom should prioritize the repeal of the 16th amendment.

It is none of your business how much I make, but it sure is the IRS's, and the government's. Of course this is just my opinion, only worth 1/330,000,000, as is yours, but you are entirely wrong. Your logic leads to the conclusion of a flat tax rate, which is absolutely, undeniably, backwards. Elon Musk should not pay the same tax rate as a single mother who has trouble feeding her children.

I am a big proponent of limiting the power of the federal government, and giving power back to the states, but there are certain obligations the federal government has now, that it did not have in the 1770s.

Anyone wanting to go back to that structure is simply ignorant of reality. There is no responsible way to end social security, end medicare/medicaid, or make all 50 states responsible for their own armed forces. And it would be dumb to try. Maybe social security could be phased out, but that is the only large expense that could be.

A progressive federal income tax is really the best solution, and conveniently, what we have. Once you accept that reality, the idea that billionaires should pay the sane rate as measly millionaires becomes silly.

So what is Elons fair share?

What % should he pay?

In my mind, with hardly any thought into it


This adequately describes how you live your entire life.

Regardless of the subject, regardless of the realities involved.

Still wonder who continues to provide your bubble.

Do you have any idea how to solve the National debt crisis? Or are you in the la la zone of let's cut taxes more!
The obvious answer is to cut spending and impose a flat tax.

Do you think that is realistic? Could you get Congress to do it? And what flat tax would you impose?


You asked for my solution.

I provided it.

Now you want guarantees.

Go away, once and for all.

So dumb. I'm asking you if you think your solution has a chance in hell. Of course it doesn't, it is no solution at all, but a dumb idea nobody would take seriously. And even if hell froze over and you got your flat tax, what % would it be?


You ask a question of me; yet answer it yourself to the negative.

Then move on to ask what % the flat tax would be despite previously rejecting the proposal as 'dumb'.

Either you are under the age of 17 or intellectually deficient.

Still wonder who pays your bills as you have made it transparently clear you are incapable of providing for yourself.



Do you have anything to contribute or not? How would you convince anyone to implement a flat tax? Forget what %. Are you able to post an answer, or just insults?
Do not need to 'convince ' the public.

Simply up to the federal government to implement the legislation.

Flat tax should be 15%.

Now GO AWAY and thank your Mom and Dad for continuing to pay your bills.

The public does not set tax rates. I'm not sure why you bring the public into the discussion, but no.

How would you convince Congress to implement a 15% flat tax? And given that that would be a massive reduction in taxes collected, how would you pay down the debt?

I am at a loss, I am putting forth the bare bones of a semblance of a plan to pay down the national debt, and here you guys are arguing to increase it. This is wild. Just goes to show you how little people understand finance.


A. Do you even pay income taxes ? If so how much ?
B. When an individual pays six figures in income taxes ( along with an additional six figures in assorted other taxes ) he knows about fianc .
C. A flat tax of 15% would generate more revenue, not less.
A flat tax of 15% with no deductions would generate less income than taxes today, plus it would plunge millions into poverty. 15% of America (49 million) live right above the poverty line, and they pay very little income tax. Going from 0-4% to 15% would be a massive financial strain.

Erasing the middle class does not work well for long term tax revenue.

Flat tax only works in conjunction with large VAT or consumption taxes. Like 25%+

Even more people going into poverty.

I'm not arguing for or against. Simply stating a flat tax, at the levels mentioned, don't work unless there are really, really large consumption taxes or there just isn't enough revenue generated

Maybe Kai Bear forgot about that part.
FLBear5630
How long do you want to ignore this user?
nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

KaiBear said:

Porteroso said:

nein51 said:

Porteroso said:

historian said:

Porteroso said:

jbbear said:

ScottS said:

For years we've heard the left politicians say the rich don't pay their fair share. Now you have Hunter not paying over $1M in taxes and pardoned so he doesn't have to pay. Wouldn't this be an example of the rich not paying their fair share??? How do the lefties on this board, who clearly voted for Biden, explain this????
The same way Dumbocrats fail to realize the top 10% earners pay the VAST majority of our federal taxes. Around 40% don't pay any federal taxes of any kind. But they can't spend us into oblivion unless they can convince their godless voters to increase taxes at all times.

They actually know, for the most part, that the upper class contributes the most. What they want is additional tax brackets, because making 5 million a year is different from making 5 billion a year, and nobody truly needs 5 billion. And it is a fair point, that someone making even 500 million a year is profiting off of many others, making much less money. Nobody making 50m is doing it with their own 2 hands.

I support a progressive tax system, and not only would I let the tax cuts expire in 2025, I'd also created 3 or 4 new tax brackets at 15m, 50m, 100m, and 250m. Conservatives seem to not understand basic accounting. Revenue needs to exceed spending in order to make a dent in 30 trillion dollars of debt.

That's entirely the wrong way of thinking. No one has any right to say how much someone else needs or how much is too much for someone else. It's quite literally none of my business how much money you make or how you use it. The only exceptions is that crimes must be punished & politicians should be punished didn't more if they violate the public trust & abuse their power (bribery, extortion, kickbacks, etc).

This entire discussion demonstrates the wisdom of the Founding Fathers Hefner they placed a ban on income taxes in the original constitution. All they do is make it easier for a government to rob the people, makes government richer & more powerful, and thus leads to more corruption & tyranny. Nothing good comes from it.

Anyone who truly wants freedom should prioritize the repeal of the 16th amendment.

It is none of your business how much I make, but it sure is the IRS's, and the government's. Of course this is just my opinion, only worth 1/330,000,000, as is yours, but you are entirely wrong. Your logic leads to the conclusion of a flat tax rate, which is absolutely, undeniably, backwards. Elon Musk should not pay the same tax rate as a single mother who has trouble feeding her children.

I am a big proponent of limiting the power of the federal government, and giving power back to the states, but there are certain obligations the federal government has now, that it did not have in the 1770s.

Anyone wanting to go back to that structure is simply ignorant of reality. There is no responsible way to end social security, end medicare/medicaid, or make all 50 states responsible for their own armed forces. And it would be dumb to try. Maybe social security could be phased out, but that is the only large expense that could be.

A progressive federal income tax is really the best solution, and conveniently, what we have. Once you accept that reality, the idea that billionaires should pay the sane rate as measly millionaires becomes silly.

So what is Elons fair share?

What % should he pay?

In my mind, with hardly any thought into it


This adequately describes how you live your entire life.

Regardless of the subject, regardless of the realities involved.

Still wonder who continues to provide your bubble.

Do you have any idea how to solve the National debt crisis? Or are you in the la la zone of let's cut taxes more!
The obvious answer is to cut spending and impose a flat tax.

Do you think that is realistic? Could you get Congress to do it? And what flat tax would you impose?


You asked for my solution.

I provided it.

Now you want guarantees.

Go away, once and for all.

So dumb. I'm asking you if you think your solution has a chance in hell. Of course it doesn't, it is no solution at all, but a dumb idea nobody would take seriously. And even if hell froze over and you got your flat tax, what % would it be?


You ask a question of me; yet answer it yourself to the negative.

Then move on to ask what % the flat tax would be despite previously rejecting the proposal as 'dumb'.

Either you are under the age of 17 or intellectually deficient.

Still wonder who pays your bills as you have made it transparently clear you are incapable of providing for yourself.



Do you have anything to contribute or not? How would you convince anyone to implement a flat tax? Forget what %. Are you able to post an answer, or just insults?
Do not need to 'convince ' the public.

Simply up to the federal government to implement the legislation.

Flat tax should be 15%.

Now GO AWAY and thank your Mom and Dad for continuing to pay your bills.

The public does not set tax rates. I'm not sure why you bring the public into the discussion, but no.

How would you convince Congress to implement a 15% flat tax? And given that that would be a massive reduction in taxes collected, how would you pay down the debt?

I am at a loss, I am putting forth the bare bones of a semblance of a plan to pay down the national debt, and here you guys are arguing to increase it. This is wild. Just goes to show you how little people understand finance.


A. Do you even pay income taxes ? If so how much ?
B. When an individual pays six figures in income taxes ( along with an additional six figures in assorted other taxes ) he knows about fianc .
C. A flat tax of 15% would generate more revenue, not less.
A flat tax of 15% with no deductions would generate less income than taxes today, plus it would plunge millions into poverty. 15% of America (49 million) live right above the poverty line, and they pay very little income tax. Going from 0-4% to 15% would be a massive financial strain.

Erasing the middle class does not work well for long term tax revenue.

Flat tax only works in conjunction with large VAT or consumption taxes. Like 25%+

Even more people going into poverty.

I'm not arguing for or against. Simply stating a flat tax, at the levels mentioned, don't work unless there are really, really large consumption taxes or there just isn't enough revenue generated


Consumption fees are not an issue to those that already have consumed. They raised their kids, have their house, cars, boats, 2nd homes and such. To them a flat tire ax is great, they already got theirs, so tax the rest for consuming. Talk to a 24 year old that still has a lifetime of consuming in front of them.

Similar to living in FL, people move here and then want us to blow up the interchange so no one else can get to their piece of heaven.
historian
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Look at my first point again.
historian
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Porteroso said:

historian said:

First of all government must be trimmed down dramatically. It will be much more affordable when the hundreds of worthless, wasteful, & fraudulent agencies are eliminated & the essential ones are trimmed of fat and reduced to their primary responsibilities. Getting rid of DEI is a necessary first step, although a tiny one. There are many other examples of stupidity that don't deserve one penny of taxpayer funding.

Far more important and more difficult will be entitlement reform. Those programs drive up the budget more than anything else. There are ways to fix these things but it will require hard choices and a real determination to get it done. There is little reason to expect anyone in Washington will be able to do much.

As for taxes, I would prefer a national sales tax of 10% on everything except food or medicine and other essentials. Get rid of the income tax completely because it is unjust and results in many tyrannical abuses & the insane explosion of govt. I don't seriously believe it will happen. This is the ideal.

I am not very optimistic about disaster being averted. With a $36 trillion debt growing by $1 trillion every 100 days, it must be addressed.

What kind of cuts do you want to entitlements? The issue with cutting them is that hundreds of millions rely upon them. There is no responsible way to cut them for anyone using them now. Any responsible reform would not see immediate benefit, but likely would cut benefits for younger generations who haven't paid much in yet, but would need to continue paying to keep the programs afloat...

There are not many fraudulent government agencies, unless your language is English-Zealot. These government agencies are also not a significant portion of the budget. So when you say major trimming of the federal government, that needs to result in major reduction of the budget, otherwise you are just eliminating things Americans depend on, for little gain.

That said,I'm also for the trimming down of the federal government, in the form of a major revision to the interstate commerce act, which would clarify and limit the federal government's role, and also downsizing te department of education, giving most of that money going to federal employees straight into the block grants. I'd want to spend more, not less, on education, but it should be spent on teaching students, not lifelong government enoyees sucking up a good chunk.

There are many ways to reform entitlements to save the taxpayer money:

-Start by ending all forms of aid to illegals. They have no right to one penny from the taxpayer unless in the form of a one-way ticket home.
-End all congressional exemptions: they should follow all the laws & regulations required of the rest of us.
-Immediately, end all pensions and other perks to former members of Congress, Cabinet officials, etc. Their pay was too high to start with & too many leave office far richer than when they started. They do not deserve one penny from the taxpayer after leaving elected or appointed office.
-Fire 100% of the 87k new IRS employees Biden got for the persecution of Americans. You know, the ones who were expected to be willing to use lethal force. (Armed robbers)
-Go through every govt agency with the plan to cut staffing in half. Force everyone to justify their job, especially those making six figures. Cut their benefits to be in line with the private sector. Reduce the number of holidays in which they are paid not to work.
-Hiring freeze & pay freeze throughout the govt, except soldiers & sailors. Trim the fat inside the Pentagon & all govt agencies. They are far too top heavy & the people at the top make far too much money (& have budgets that are too high). While we are cleaning up the military brass, remove everyone in the military services who is trans. No one with a mental illness should be anywhere near weapons of any kind or in a position to control how they are used.
-Decentralize federal agencies across the country, especially those states with a lower cost of living. They do not all need to be inside the Beltway and can operate more efficiently in places like Texas, Florida, Nevada, & Indiana.
-Far more important, privatize as many entitlements as possible so that they are under private control instead of incompetent & irresponsible bureaucrats.
-Allow Social Security & federal pension victims to control their own destiny. Hold those managing the funds responsible.
-Audit the entire government including the Federal Reserve. Then eliminate all waste & any agency with a poor record of accomplishment. That could save $100 billion or so every year!
-End all grants to universities that engage in DEI or any other unconstitutional behavior.
-Investigate all cases of fraud & other crimes then fine the beneficiaries of that fraud double the total of what they stole from the taxpayers or cheated from investors. I realize most don't have it. Some do. SBF, Nancy Pelosi & Hillary Clinton (insider trading), etc are millionaires. Bankrupt them before putting them in prison for their crimes. Same with politicians that took bribes & the billion dollar corporations that bribed them. This might be a net loss but it will be justice to punish criminals & a deterrent to others tempted to do the same.
-Do not allow any govt agency to create rules and regulations not explicitly authorized by Congress. This could provide a huge long term benefit.
-No govt entity outside the military should have any military hardware or police function. This would eliminate a major source of tyranny.
-Allow the free market to operate more freely.

This is just the beginning. A lot more can be done. In the long term, a trimmed down govt will cost less and do its job more efficiently. It will also boost the economy just like tax cuts can do. Quite literally, these kinds of measures can pay for themselves. It seems to me that most of this is plain common sense.

Once the budget is sustainable, meaning balanced and with an annual surplus, then we can start paying down the debt. Only then, the federal government can start selling off public land. The federal government owns far more land than can be legitimately justified in a free society. The proceeds can be used to pay off more of the debt.

Smarter people than me can probably come up with more ideas. A start must be made somewhere.
historian
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Porteroso said:

historian said:

There is nothing realistic about raising taxes. The rich already pay far more in taxes than any other bracket. Elon Musk is an excellent example. Until this year, he held the record for paying largest tax bill. (Yes, someone actually paid more!). Absolutely no one benefits from corrupt politicians & incompetent bureaucrats stealing more money from the taxpayers or any subset of them.

What does your first sentence even mean? And you realize that the vast majority of the federal budget goes to.... Americans, right?

When the govt taxes some people and gives the money to others it's a form of theft and makes the recipients parties to the crime. It is, however, a very clear illustration of one of the evils of socialism.
 
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