Anyone in here a preterist or partial-preterist? I never used those labels for myself, but y'all would probably label me as a partial-preterist (Entire book of Revelation has already happened - 1st Century Jerusalem is the Harlot.)

I've been teaching awhile on this... was wondering if anyone else in here leaned this way.

Realitybites said:

---

I've heard of Preterism, but perhaps the clearest refutation of it is found in Revelation 21.

"Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth,"for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

Clearly, the oceans still exist. Even if you want to take a more limited view of it, both the Mediterranean Sea and the Sea of Gallilee still exist. So the entire book of Revelation could not have happened in the first century.

I do not see the modern state of Israel as a continuation of David's Kingdom however.

---

The way I teach that part - which is actually my focus - is that the heavens and earth arent literal.

Isaiah 1:2,9,10 define figurative heavens & earth as the rulers and people of the Jews. Then in Hebrews 12 it talks about the faithful of chapter 11 not getting to see the promise: Christ and the new, better covenant... but the ones that were alive when Hebrews was written did. They came to the general assembly & church of the firstborn.

Judaism was being removed. The rulers and people of that old system were being shaken (removed) so that which was unmovable - the Christian church - could take its place. - Heb 12:26-28.

I dont expect too many on here to be interested in this... and its not a big deal to have differing opinions (its not instructions on how to get to heaven or anything.)

I would go with "prophecy is pattern".
Jerusalem has been ravaged over the milllenia since Titus Vespasian's legion did it.
" Indiana University Professor, Bernard Frischer estimates that since 2000 BCE, the city was destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked another 52 times, recaptured 44 times, been the scene of 20 revolts, many riots, and endured half a dozen seperate periods of violent terrorist attackes during the past century, with the city peacefully changing hands only twice"
https://israeled.org/jerusalem-timeline/amp/
(It was destroyed by Mongols in 1260)

If you read Daniel 9:27 there is the antichrist figure concluding a covenant with many for one "seven" ( 7 year period?) .
Jerusalem is the city from which the Muslims believe Muhammad left on a night ride to converse with God and Iranian state media have stated that the Mahdi will appear to fight the adversary in a series of apocalyptic battles. Muslims believe their version of the antichrist- Dajjal, is a one eyed evil character (maybe similar to the recovery from head wound by the Antichrist mentioned in Rev 13:3?) .
It is the 3rd most sacred site to them, yet highly contested. I would not rule out Jesus' warnings in Matthew 24 regarding Jerusalem being surrounded by armies. That area is geographically small, yet open enough to allow maneuver by massive armies due to being desert.

UTExan said:

---

I would go with "prophecy is pattern".
Jerusalem has been ravaged over the milllenia since Titus Vespasian's legion did it.
" Indiana University Professor, Bernard Frischer estimates that since 2000 BCE, the city was destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked another 52 times, recaptured 44 times, been the scene of 20 revolts, many riots, and endured half a dozen seperate periods of violent terrorist attackes during the past century, with the city peacefully changing hands only twice"
https://israeled.org/jerusalem-timeline/amp/
(It was destroyed by Mongols in 1260)

If you read Daniel 9:27 there is the antichrist figure concluding a covenant with many for one "seven" ( 7 year period?) .
Jerusalem is the city from which the Muslims believe Muhammad left on a night ride to converse with God and Iranian state media have stated that the Mahdi will appear to fight the adversary in a series of apocalyptic battles. Muslims believe their version of the antichrist- Dajjal, is a one eyed evil character (maybe similar to the recovery from head wound by the Antichrist mentioned in Rev 13:3?) .
It is the 3rd most sacred site to them, yet highly contested. I would not rule out Jesus' warnings in Matthew 24 regarding Jerusalem being surrounded by armies. That area is geographically small, yet open enough to allow maneuver by massive armies due to being desert.

---

I pair it with the completion of the transition from Judaism to Christianity. That can only be coupled with the destruction by Titus & the Xth.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Married A Horn said:

---

Realitybites said:

---

I've heard of Preterism, but perhaps the clearest refutation of it is found in Revelation 21.

"Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth,"for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

Clearly, the oceans still exist. Even if you want to take a more limited view of it, both the Mediterranean Sea and the Sea of Gallilee still exist. So the entire book of Revelation could not have happened in the first century.

I do not see the modern state of Israel as a continuation of David's Kingdom however.

---

The way I teach that part - which is actually my focus - is that the heavens and earth arent literal.

Isaiah 1:2,9,10 define figurative heavens & earth as the rulers and people of the Jews. Then in Hebrews 12 it talks about the faithful of chapter 11 not getting to see the promise: Christ and the new, better covenant... but the ones that were alive when Hebrews was written did. They came to the general assembly & church of the firstborn.

Judaism was being removed. The rulers and people of that old system were being shaken (removed) so that which was unmovable - the Christian church - could take its place. - Heb 12:26-28.

I dont expect too many on here to be interested in this... and its not a big deal to have differing opinions (its not instructions on how to get to heaven or anything.)

---

But "heavens and earth" in Genesis 1 is literal.

The hardest thing about eschatology is knowing what kind of hermaneutic to use in interpreting the text. The problem with full preterism is that it requires figurative interpretation in one chapter, then literal in the next, then back to figurative. It's hard to justify this kind of inconsistent hermaneutic. Not saying it's wrong, but it would require knowing the combination or having the key to the lock, sort of speak.

And then, there's the concept of "double fulfillment" of prophecy - an early fulfillment that occurs soon after the prophecy is made, and then a fuller, more complete fulfillment that occurs much later in the future. This is prevalent in the bible, and it throws a wrench into the whole preterist vs futurist debate since it allows Revelation to be both history and still yet to be fulfilled.

---

Agree with a lot of that. Teaching Isaiah as type / antitype for much of it. But yeah, as I said in the op - I think in apocalyptic and poetical passages u can safely lean more towards the metaphorical side. Joesph's dream in Gen 37 clearly has the sun moon & stars as metaphors for the (eventual) leaders of Israel. Isaiah 1:2,9,10 show the heavens and earth are metaphorical as well: for the rulers and people of Judah & Jerusalem.

When you throw in the most emphasized point in Revelation - that the events of the book were about to happen; mentioned 7 times in the intro and closing of the book - its hard for me to buy into anything past the 1st century AD.

I am for sure not full preterist. I use 1 Cor 15:24 in contrast to Revelation 21:2. In 1st Cor 15, (end of time - future to us event) you have the kingdom (church) being delivered UP TO God IN heaven.
Whereas in Revelation 21:2 you have the bride (church) coming DOWN FROM God OUT OF heaven. They are the exact opposite events going on there.

...and heaven cant come out of itself. Revelation 21:2,9 say Revelation 21 is about the church / bride. A big misintrepretation by most.

In teaching Isaiah, I learned most Jews today wont touch the book. My guess is the 1st century jewish-christians knew the book better than anything out there... which they would use as their cipher to understand Revelation when it made its rounds.

Married A Horn said:

---

The way I teach that part - which is actually my focus - is that the heavens and earth arent literal.

Isaiah 1:2,9,10 define figurative heavens & earth as the rulers and people of the Jews. Then in Hebrews 12 it talks about the faithful of chapter 11 not getting to see the promise: Christ and the new, better covenant... but the ones that were alive when Hebrews was written did. They came to the general assembly & church of the firstborn.

Judaism was being removed. The rulers and people of that old system were being shaken (removed) so that which was unmovable - the Christian church - could take its place. - Heb 12:26-28.

I dont expect too many on here to be interested in this... and its not a big deal to have differing opinions (its not instructions on how to get to heaven or anything.)

---

My issue with taking that as somehing figurative is (1) the author describes it as something he saw, (2) the observation that there was no sea would be pointless to make if this was an Isaiah reference. Even Jesus, when he taught in parables, identified them as such. My general view is to take what is written at face value.

Realitybites said:

---

Married A Horn said:

---

The way I teach that part - which is actually my focus - is that the heavens and earth arent literal.

Isaiah 1:2,9,10 define figurative heavens & earth as the rulers and people of the Jews. Then in Hebrews 12 it talks about the faithful of chapter 11 not getting to see the promise: Christ and the new, better covenant... but the ones that were alive when Hebrews was written did. They came to the general assembly & church of the firstborn.

Judaism was being removed. The rulers and people of that old system were being shaken (removed) so that which was unmovable - the Christian church - could take its place. - Heb 12:26-28.

I dont expect too many on here to be interested in this... and its not a big deal to have differing opinions (its not instructions on how to get to heaven or anything.)

---

My issue with taking that as somehing figurative is (1) the author describes it as something he saw, (2) the observation that there was no sea would be pointless to make if this was an Isaiah reference. Even Jesus, when he taught in parables, identified them as such. My general view is to take what is written at face value.

---

Most visions, if not all, are figurative. Nebuchanazar's dreams. Joseph's dreams. Ezekiel had some weird visions. Jacob had a ladder vision... all symbolic.

One of Isaiah's main points is that Christ would bring the light unto the gentiles... the strangers from afar OR the island nations, meaning the ones separated from 'the earth' (God's Kingdom - Judah).

When Christ comes, there is no more separation and the Isles would be able to be part of that earth. He removes the vail so everyone could see how the gentiles would be able to be in the kingdom/church without having to convert to judaism first.

The way I always ask that question to my class is, if the heavens and earth are literal and are going to be gone... why is that line about the sea in there at all? Of course it would be gone.

Figurative:
Heavens = Leaders of the Jews
Earth = people of God's Kingdom (Jews)
Islands / isles = Gentiles
Sea = separation of jews and gentiles

Eph 2: both jew and gentile would be made one through Christ. They would be fitly framed together to form the new kingdom / church.

Yeah, I think it's really hard to make the argument that the entire book of Revelation has already happened. When did the 1000 years of peace happen? When was the judgement seat event?
Did I miss the part of history where Satan and all the demons were thrown into the Lake of Fire?

Seems pretty obvious that we are not now, nor have ever been in the millennial reign. Did i miss the massive battle between all of heaven and all of hell?

Yes. Revelation was a unique type of ANE literature. Like all of Scripture, it had specific meaning to the Church then and timeless truths for the Church forever.

I do not think most of the "Left Behind" folks are ever told that it was all made up by an Englishman in the late 19th Century and spread to the world by Dallas Theological Seminary.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Yes. Revelation was a unique type of ANE literature. Like all of Scripture, it had specific meaning to the Church then and timeless truths for the Church forever.

I do not think most of the "Left Behind" folks are ever told that it was all made up by an Englishman in the late 19th Century and spread to the world by Dallas Theological Seminary.

---

I think you are talking about the pre-tribulation rapture part... and I agree... it's not really Biblically supported.

However the rest of Revelation is not "made up" at all.

ShooterTX said:

---

Yeah, I think it's really hard to make the argument that the entire book of Revelation has already happened. When did the 1000 years of peace happen? When was the judgement seat event?
Did I miss the part of history where Satan and all the demons were thrown into the Lake of Fire?

Seems pretty obvious that we are not now, nor have ever been in the millennial reign. Did i miss the massive battle between all of heaven and all of hell?

---

Of course I have explanations/theories for all that... the book of symbols. The symbols represent something other than themselves. But, I didn't create the thread to go into all of that - I was just looking to see if anyone either leaned that way or was interested in this theory.

Married A Horn said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Yeah, I think it's really hard to make the argument that the entire book of Revelation has already happened. When did the 1000 years of peace happen? When was the judgement seat event?
Did I miss the part of history where Satan and all the demons were thrown into the Lake of Fire?

Seems pretty obvious that we are not now, nor have ever been in the millennial reign. Did i miss the massive battle between all of heaven and all of hell?

---

Of course I have explanations/theories for all that... the book of symbols. The symbols represent something other than themselves. But, I didn't create the thread to go into all of that - I was just looking to see if anyone either leaned that way or was interested in this theory.

---

I think your eschatological framework lacks explanatory power: the regathering of Israel (Jews) as indicated in Jeremiah 30:3 , Ezekiel 37:21, Zech. 8:7-8 and Ezekiel 20:39-41 is an example of prophecy only fulfilled recently in historical terms. And it was accomplished under extremely tenuous circumstances.
Similarly, the Ezekiel 38 prophecies about nations being gathered in a confederacy against Israel have yet to be fulfilled, but the geopolitical alliances are such that the nations mentioned are now ideologically aligned and involved in the Levant's endless ethic/religious conflicts.

UTExan said:

---

Married A Horn said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Yeah, I think it's really hard to make the argument that the entire book of Revelation has already happened. When did the 1000 years of peace happen? When was the judgement seat event?
Did I miss the part of history where Satan and all the demons were thrown into the Lake of Fire?

Seems pretty obvious that we are not now, nor have ever been in the millennial reign. Did i miss the massive battle between all of heaven and all of hell?

---

Of course I have explanations/theories for all that... the book of symbols. The symbols represent something other than themselves. But, I didn't create the thread to go into all of that - I was just looking to see if anyone either leaned that way or was interested in this theory.

---

I think your eschatological framework lacks explanatory power: the regathering of Israel (Jews) as indicated in Jeremiah 30:3 , Ezekiel 37:21, Zech. 8:7-8 and Ezekiel 20:39-41 is an example of prophecy only fulfilled recently in historical terms. And it was accomplished under extremely tenuous circumstances.
Similarly, the Ezekiel 38 prophecies about nations being gathered in a confederacy against Israel have yet to be fulfilled, but the geopolitical alliances are such that the nations mentioned are now ideologically aligned and involved in the Levant's endless ethic/religious conflicts.

---

My belief is that the regathering is referring to the remnant. Paul addresses that in Romans 9 & 11 - he says it was happening rigjt then (or about to happen right then) there in the 1st century a.d. The remnant are the Jews that converted to Christianity in that 1st Century.

The 'whole world' did, in a way, come to destroy Jerusalem & the Old Covenant it represented. Rome was just that.

Revelation 1:1 to show him things which must surely come to pass
Revelation 1:3 the things written therein, for the time is at hand
Revelation 22:6 and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7 behold I come quickly
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
- Daniel's vision of the breaking in pieces the power of the Holy People (12:7) and what would befall his people (the jews) in their latter days (10:14) was not going to happen for another 500 years plus. Daniel was told 'seal this up - it's not gonna happen for a long time.' 500 years is a long time for a human being. Contrast that too Revelation 22:10 - they're told not to seal it up - the exact opposite of Daniel.

So for that to make sense 500 years would need to be considered a long way away while at the same time, two thousand years and still counting needs to mean eminent.

Rev 22:12 behold I come quickly
Rev 22:20 - it closes his warning.With this most emphasized point: surely I come quickly.

These time warnings were massively emphasized and meant something to humans. It was stressed many, many times for a reason.

Christ said his kingdom was not of this world - so any theory that says, 'Revelation is about a future to us event' and has the kingdom become 'of this world'... struggles with these 2 passages / points.

Married A Horn said:

---

UTExan said:

---

Married A Horn said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Yeah, I think it's really hard to make the argument that the entire book of Revelation has already happened. When did the 1000 years of peace happen? When was the judgement seat event?
Did I miss the part of history where Satan and all the demons were thrown into the Lake of Fire?

Seems pretty obvious that we are not now, nor have ever been in the millennial reign. Did i miss the massive battle between all of heaven and all of hell?

---

Of course I have explanations/theories for all that... the book of symbols. The symbols represent something other than themselves. But, I didn't create the thread to go into all of that - I was just looking to see if anyone either leaned that way or was interested in this theory.

---

I think your eschatological framework lacks explanatory power: the regathering of Israel (Jews) as indicated in Jeremiah 30:3 , Ezekiel 37:21, Zech. 8:7-8 and Ezekiel 20:39-41 is an example of prophecy only fulfilled recently in historical terms. And it was accomplished under extremely tenuous circumstances.
Similarly, the Ezekiel 38 prophecies about nations being gathered in a confederacy against Israel have yet to be fulfilled, but the geopolitical alliances are such that the nations mentioned are now ideologically aligned and involved in the Levant's endless ethic/religious conflicts.

---

My belief is that the regathering is referring to the remnant. Paul addresses that in Romans 9 & 11 - he says it was happening rigjt then (or about to happen right then) there in the 1st century a.d. The remnant are the Jews that converted to Christianity in that 1st Century.

The 'whole world' did, in a way, come to destroy Jerusalem & the Old Covenant it represented. Rome was just that.

Revelation 1:1 to show him things which must surely come to pass
Revelation 1:3 the things written therein, for the time is at hand
Revelation 22:6 and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7 behold I come quickly
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
- Daniel's vision of the breaking in pieces the power of the Holy People (12:7) and what would befall his people (the jews) in their latter days (10:14) was not going to happen for another 500 years plus. Daniel was told 'seal this up - it's not gonna happen for a long time.' 500 years is a long time for a human being. Contrast that too Revelation 22:10 - they're told not to seal it up - the exact opposite of Daniel.

So for that to make sense 500 years would need to be considered a long way away while at the same time, two thousand years and still counting needs to mean eminent.

Rev 22:12 behold I come quickly
Rev 22:20 - it closes his warning.With this most emphasized point: surely I come quickly.

These time warnings were massively emphasized and meant something to humans. It was stressed many, many times for a reason.

Christ said his kingdom was not of this world - so any theory that says, 'Revelation is about a future to us event' and has the kingdom become 'of this world'... struggles with these 2 passages / points.

---

So you are saying that Jesus has already come a second time?
Jesus has already judged the earth?
Satan has already been cast into the Lake of Fire?

If all of Revelation has already occurred... what is going on right now? Why are we all still here, and not in the eternal Kingdom of God? When will we see Him face to face?

ShooterTX said:

---

Married A Horn said:

---

UTExan said:

---

Married A Horn said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

Yeah, I think it's really hard to make the argument that the entire book of Revelation has already happened. When did the 1000 years of peace happen? When was the judgement seat event?
Did I miss the part of history where Satan and all the demons were thrown into the Lake of Fire?

Seems pretty obvious that we are not now, nor have ever been in the millennial reign. Did i miss the massive battle between all of heaven and all of hell?

---

Of course I have explanations/theories for all that... the book of symbols. The symbols represent something other than themselves. But, I didn't create the thread to go into all of that - I was just looking to see if anyone either leaned that way or was interested in this theory.

---

I think your eschatological framework lacks explanatory power: the regathering of Israel (Jews) as indicated in Jeremiah 30:3 , Ezekiel 37:21, Zech. 8:7-8 and Ezekiel 20:39-41 is an example of prophecy only fulfilled recently in historical terms. And it was accomplished under extremely tenuous circumstances.
Similarly, the Ezekiel 38 prophecies about nations being gathered in a confederacy against Israel have yet to be fulfilled, but the geopolitical alliances are such that the nations mentioned are now ideologically aligned and involved in the Levant's endless ethic/religious conflicts.

---

My belief is that the regathering is referring to the remnant. Paul addresses that in Romans 9 & 11 - he says it was happening rigjt then (or about to happen right then) there in the 1st century a.d. The remnant are the Jews that converted to Christianity in that 1st Century.

The 'whole world' did, in a way, come to destroy Jerusalem & the Old Covenant it represented. Rome was just that.

Revelation 1:1 to show him things which must surely come to pass
Revelation 1:3 the things written therein, for the time is at hand
Revelation 22:6 and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7 behold I come quickly
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
- Daniel's vision of the breaking in pieces the power of the Holy People (12:7) and what would befall his people (the jews) in their latter days (10:14) was not going to happen for another 500 years plus. Daniel was told 'seal this up - it's not gonna happen for a long time.' 500 years is a long time for a human being. Contrast that too Revelation 22:10 - they're told not to seal it up - the exact opposite of Daniel.

So for that to make sense 500 years would need to be considered a long way away while at the same time, two thousand years and still counting needs to mean eminent.

Rev 22:12 behold I come quickly
Rev 22:20 - it closes his warning.With this most emphasized point: surely I come quickly.

These time warnings were massively emphasized and meant something to humans. It was stressed many, many times for a reason.

Christ said his kingdom was not of this world - so any theory that says, 'Revelation is about a future to us event' and has the kingdom become 'of this world'... struggles with these 2 passages / points.

---

So you are saying that Jesus has already come a second time?
Jesus has already judged the earth?
Satan has already been cast into the Lake of Fire?

If all of Revelation has already occurred... what is going on right now? Why are we all still here, and not in the eternal Kingdom of God? When will we see Him face to face?

---

Let me start with the last couple of questions first.
1. We are already in the Kingdom. The Kingdom is the church. It is a spiritual Kingdom - a house not made with hands - my kingdom is not of this world, meaning it would not have physical borders and physical armies. We fight with the sword of the spirit. All Nations have come unto this Kingdom... meaning the Gentiles were accepted into the church of the Firstborn (Heb 12:22-23; Eph 2:10-22).
2. We'll see him at the end of time when the Kingdom (church) is delivered up: I Cor 15:24. I Thes 4:13-18 says the dead in Christ rise first (important to figure out how to get into Christ) and then those that are still alive will follow after and meet him in the air.

...but none of this is Revelation. We probably believe a lot of the same stuff - I just put Revelation in a different category than you do.

3. Jesus has already come a 2nd time - figuratively. God came as Nebuchadnezzar (used the Babylonians as his tool) to deliver judgement to the Jews in the 6th Century BC. He says in Deuteronomy 28:49-50: 49 The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand; 50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:

He warned them at their beginning that he would end them with a Nation from afar (Rome) whose language they did not understand (Latin). Deuteronomy 28-32 are very similar to the book of Revelation. Christ comes as that gentile army of desolation to carry out the wrath of his indignation.

Isaiah is a book about Judah & Jerusalem and their eventual final desolation when the Messiah is born. Isaiah 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Christ references this passage when he is about to be crucified when the women of Jerusalem were following him and crying.
He says in Luke 23:28-30 28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. 29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

...which Revelation 6:16 directly quotes: And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

John is directly linking Revelation's events to Christ's warning to the daughters of Jerusalem... 'I am about to come back and bring the gentile nation from a far as my instrument / weapon of desolation. Cry for yourselves - you're about to be desolated.'

This was the process of taking the Kingdom away from the Jews and giving it to the gentiles: Matthew 21:42-43. The Jews understood it. They didn't like it, but they knew he was talking about them.

4. The Earth: It is a book of signs and symbols. The earth, as shown by Isaiah 1:2,9,10 represents the old Jewish Kingdom... the people. 'Give ear, O earth. Give ear, ye people.'
Yes, God has already judged the figurative earth which represented the Jewish people. The old cheating Harlot (Jeremiah 2&3) was being replaced by the Bride of Christ - the church: The New Jerusalem.

5. The dragon, the adversary, Satan's instrument that was trying to deal a death blow to the church at its infancy. He casts out a flood, a gentile army like the Assyrians in Isaiah 8:7, to destroy the woman (church) but the Harlot (Jerusalem) takes the blow instead.

The dragon in prophecy was figurative for a Gentile Ruler of Armies that were an adversary to God's people.
Jeremiah 51:34 - Nebuchadnezzar acts as a dragon
Ezekiel 29:3 - Pharoah is the great dragon
Revelation - Nero of the Roman Empire.

Yes, Satan's cause of trying to kill the hope our cause of Christ (similar to Ezekiel 37's valley of dry bones) would die. It would be completely destroyed forever. Nero and his efforts would fail and die, being thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone. Christ and the church would be victorious.

Another thing to think about that part of Revelation that you are referencing - and I'm not sure which translation you use, but 'death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.' Its not literal. Otherwise you have hell being cast into itself. That makes no sense. If figurative for the cause of Satan that he was carrying out through the persecuting Jews and Romans there in the 1st Century, it makes sense. The great persecution against the church in Jerusalem (Acts 8:1) and the great persecution that Nero started in 64 AD would not be successful. Those 'causes' and the ones carrying them out were the ones that would die (Nero & the Jews).

The one thing I can say is what while you are in that vision - chapters 4:1 thru 22:5 - it is full of signs and symbols. It is not meant to be taken literal. The Old Testament really helps define all of the symbols: heavens, earth, sun, moon, starts, islands, sea, dragon, etc.

And, ultimately back to my previous post, doesn't violate the most emphasized point in the book: it was about to happen right after John wrote it in the 60s AD. Jerusalem is destroyed by Vespasian (Titus) in 70 AD.

A series of articles that walk through the entire Book of Revelation based on the understanding of the church of the first millenium.

Revelation: Removing the Veil
https://orthochristian.com/158753.html

I also don't necessarily object to some of the verses you cite being applied to the destruction of Israel.

There is, I think, a direct parallel between Mathew 24 and Revelation 19 and they describe the same event...a single return of Christ. I do not in any way believe that a rapture of the Church will occur aside from those Christians who were not martyred by the antichrist rising to meet Jesus in the air at his visible second coming. But i would not call that a rapture as it is taught in most evangelical circles.

But then there is this parallel from the gospels and Revelation.

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." (Matthew 24)

"Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth,"for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea." (Revelation 21:1)

That is, I think it is clear that we are within the time of the fulfillment of some of the prophecies of Revelation (for instance, the fulfillment of what was written in the letters to the churches is historically in the past though we see the similar issues at play in the church today) but to say that it was all fulfilled in the first century AD is a bridge too far.

I guess it is also possible that we are living in Revelation 20, and that the imprisonment of Satan ended in 1054 A.D. with the great schsm and formation of the Roman Catholic church. But that makes placing the events of Revelation 13:17 and Revelation 11:8 in the past troublesome.

We all look for a "you are here" map in Bible prophecy, but in the end no man knows the day or hour.

Realitybites said:

---

I also don't necessarily object to some of the verses you cite being applied to the destruction of Israel.

There is, I think, a direct parallel between Mathew 24 and Revelation 19 and they describe the same event...a single return of Christ. I do not in any way believe that a rapture of the Church will occur aside from those Christians who were not martyred by the antichrist rising to meet Jesus in the air at his visible second coming. But i would not call that a rapture as it is taught in most evangelical circles.

But then there is this parallel from the gospels and Revelation.

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." (Matthew 24)

"Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth,"for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea." (Revelation 21:1)

That is, I think it is clear that we are within the time of the fulfillment of some of the prophecies of Revelation (for instance, the fulfillment of what was written in the letters to the churches is historically in the past though we see the similar issues at play in the church today) but to say that it was all fulfilled in the first century AD is a bridge too far.

---

I can work with that. And again, I don't mind at all the differences of opinions on this subject. I just enjoy it.

My first question is what translation do you lean on the most? When reading the apocalyptic passages that use symbolism quite a bit, it is quite important to not translate words into today's vernacular. You'll lose the symbolism real fast. I use a combo of KJV, ASV, YLT, NIV.

The reason I bring this up is because you bring up an excellent passage to parallel: Matthew 24.

Background: Matthew 23
Christ just spent an entire chapter (chapters and verses were added centuries later) in Matthew 23 reaming out the leaders of the Jews. He is going after them harder than anything I've ever seen.

Matthew 23:36-38 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Then immediately after that Matthew 24 starts. Jesus and the disciples are looking at the Temple and he says this thing is going to be torn down - completely.
Then, they go out east of the Temple mount to the Mount of Olives... the disciples had been contemplating this massive statement Christ just made to them and they ask about it.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? KJV

So, what are they asking? They are only asking 1 question - just in 3 different ways. They had just been shown the Temple and told it was going to be destroyed. They want to know when that will happen. 'When are you going to come and destroy it? When is the end of this Temple / Jewish age?

The word 'world' at the end of verse 3 is a horrible mistranslation by the King James translators. The ASV and NIV and most other later versions go back and correct the mistake:

Matthew 24:3 NIV As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

The correct translation is 'age' - meaning: when is the end of the Jewish age, or in better terms: When are you doing away with the old covenant and replacing it with this new covenant we've been hearing about?

Jesus answers: You'll be persecuted first, but the word has to get out... (it would spread forth from Jerusalem before that great and terrible day of the Lord.) Then he gives the warning to the Christians about 'once you see Jerusalem encompassed about with armies (the abomination of desolation) - Titus and the Romans.' Matthew 24:15 and Luke 21:20 are parallel passages followed by the same 'get out of town' instructions.

GET OUT OF DODGE (Jerusalem)!! Don't come back in if you are out in the fields. Don't go in to your house and get stuff. Pray you don't have to flee Jerusalem in winter. Pray that the Romans don't show up on the Sabbath (because the city gates would be shut and you wouldn't be able to get out.)
...if this is some version of the end of the world, why do we care if its on a Saturday???? Or Winter?

Christ is going to come, as the Roman army, like he came as the Babylonians in the 6th / 7th Century BC, and deliver judgement on the rebellious Jews.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is not talking about the literal sun moon and stars. It is talking about the leaders of the Jewish Nation just as when they were first born:

Genesis 37:9-11 9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

The Jewish King & Queen, High Priest, Pharisees, Sadducees, Sanhedrin Council, Priests - they were having their Kingdom taken from them. It was being given to the Gentiles (Matthew 21:43). Their scepter was being broken. Their ability to 'shine their light' and lead the people of the 'earth' (Judah) was ending. Their lights were being put out. They were being removed.

Hebrews 11 is the Hall of Faith - it is a lead up chapter for Chapter 12 - the important chapter. All those famous Old Testament faithful did not get to see the promise of the New Covenant. But the ones there in the first century that were reading Hebrews did! They were living it. They were in the process of receiving the Kingdom (Heb 12:28). They had come to the General Assembly and church of the firstborn. (Heb 12:23). The Kingdom that was being taken away from the Jews was being given to the Gentiles (and Jews that converted to Christ). It was the church of the New Covenant that had been promised and it was there in the1st Century.

Then Hebrews explains that the old Jewish system, the leaders and people of the Jews had to be removed in order for the New Stewards (Matthew 21:43) to take its place in the world.

Hebrews 12:26-28 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

The faithful were in the process of receiving that promised Kingdom - the church of the Firstborn. But for it to take its place in the world, for them to be God's Kingdom that was being taken away from the Jews in Matthew 21, the old Jewish system and its leaders had to be shaken - which means they had to be removed.

Matthew 24's sun moon and stars ceasing to give their light was just that: The Jewish leaders were falling from power. They no longer were the leaders of God's Kingdom/church.

And all of these things were 'at hand' they 'must shortly come to pass' 'Christ was going to be there quickly' 'don't seal up the sayings of this book' AND

Matthew 24:34: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The generation he was talking to would see the end of the Jewish age, the destruction of the Temple, the desolation of Jerusalem, and the Jewish leaders being removed from power.

Quote:

---

My first question is what translation do you lean on the most? When reading the apocalyptic passages that use symbolism quite a bit, it is quite important to not translate words into today's vernacular. You'll lose the symbolism real fast. I use a combo of KJV, ASV, YLT, NIV.

---

NKJV/KJV/21st Century KJV for the NT, Septuagint for the OT. Interesting take you have on Matthew 24, I'll have to go back and read it. Also agree that framing (are they asking three questions or one, is it end of the world or Jewish age, and the meaning of generation) completely change whether Matthew 24 is future or past history...and does this break the link between Matthew 24 and Revelation 19.

It has been quite some time since I read through Revelation. I'll have to do it again.

Excellent discussion. I've learned much.

Realitybites said:

---

Quote:

---

My first question is what translation do you lean on the most? When reading the apocalyptic passages that use symbolism quite a bit, it is quite important to not translate words into today's vernacular. You'll lose the symbolism real fast. I use a combo of KJV, ASV, YLT, NIV.

---

NKJV/KJV/21st Century KJV for the NT, Septuagint for the OT. Interesting take you have on Matthew 24, I'll have to go back and read it. Also agree that framing (are they asking three questions or one, is it end of the world or Jewish age, and the meaning of generation) completely change whether Matthew 24 is future or past history...and does this break the link between Matthew 24 and Revelation 19.

It has been quite some time since I read through Revelation. I'll have to do it again.

---

This is a decade long study. Is it necessary to figure out? I dont believe so. I just think the transition from Judaism to Christianity is the 2nd most important event of all time (Christ's death burial & ressurection being the 1st,) so, I think it is the focus of most of the Bible. Its what let us (Gentiles) be a part of God's chosen people.

Fun stuff. Thanks for discussing with me.