Los Angeles 2025 and Dresden 1945 Cities Burned by Politicians' Evil Choices

https://stream.org/los-angeles-2025-and-dresden-1945-cities-burned-by-politicians-evil-choices

Very interesting, and appropriate, comparison. However, one historical correction: at the time of the attacks in February 1945, Dresden was a valid military target.

historian said:

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Los Angeles 2025 and Dresden 1945 Cities Burned by Politicians' Evil Choices

https://stream.org/los-angeles-2025-and-dresden-1945-cities-burned-by-politicians-evil-choices

Very interesting, and appropriate, comparison. However, one historical correction: at the time of the attacks in February 1945, Dresden was a valid military target.

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Dresden was not a valid military target except to those desperate to defend a horrific war crime.

Same applies to the Tokyo fire bombing where approximately 100,000 Japanese ( overwhelmingly civilians ) were slaughtered.

Militarily, Dresden was a valid target. It was being used as a staging area for movements on the eastern front. Nevertheless, it was horrific and very sad as were the bombings of Cologne, Berlin, Munich, Nuremberg, & other German cities. But we should not forget London, Manchester, Coventry, and other cities bombed by the Luftwaffe. The war in Europe was started by Germany (with a lot of help from Stalin) and included the Holocaust plus many other atrocities. It is the ultimate example of total war.

The comparison is limited but it does make some sense, mainly in terms of the extensive damage caused by fires and human agency. We can only pray that the final death toll in L.A. will be a tiny fraction of what Dresden experienced on February 14-15, 1945.

KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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Militarily, Dresden was a valid target. It was being used as a staging area for movements on the eastern front. Nevertheless, it was horrific and very sad as were the bombings of Cologne, Berlin, Munich, Nuremberg, & other German cities. But we should not forget London, Manchester, Coventry, and other cities bombed by the Luftwaffe. The war in Europe was started by Germany (with a lot of help from Stalin) and included the Holocaust plus many other atrocities. It is the ultimate example of total war.

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Bull****

The British Air Marshall knew Dresden was unimportant militarily…admitted the sole purpose was to inflict terror

Winners write the history books usually and the allies committed atrocities

Dresden was merely one example

There are many others

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In his book, Chuck Yeager wrote about an Allied directive to kill German aviators who had bailed out and were floating to earth in parachutes. The idea was that the flyers were every bit as valuable as the planes.

I don't have a direct quote, but Yeager commented that people doing that had better win the war.

fubar said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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Militarily, Dresden was a valid target. It was being used as a staging area for movements on the eastern front. Nevertheless, it was horrific and very sad as were the bombings of Cologne, Berlin, Munich, Nuremberg, & other German cities. But we should not forget London, Manchester, Coventry, and other cities bombed by the Luftwaffe. The war in Europe was started by Germany (with a lot of help from Stalin) and included the Holocaust plus many other atrocities. It is the ultimate example of total war.

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Bull****

The British Air Marshall knew Dresden was unimportant militarily…admitted the sole purpose was to inflict terror

Winners write the history books usually and the allies committed atrocities

Dresden was merely one example

There are many others

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In his book, Chuck Yeager wrote about an Allied directive to kill German aviators who had bailed out and were floating to earth in parachutes. The idea was that the flyers were every bit as valuable as the planes.

I don't have a direct quote, but Yeager commented that people doing that had better win the war.

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Yeah I read his biography.

Americas shot German POWs at least as often as the Germans did.

The Germans shot German POWs?

historian said:

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Militarily, Dresden was a valid target. It was being used as a staging area for movements on the eastern front.

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Very debatable....certainly not of much great importance

[The bombing of Dresden during World War II was controversial, with some arguing it was a war crime. While some of the Allied leadership considered Dresden a legitimate military target, critics say the bombing was indiscriminate and disproportionate to military gains.

A United States Air Force reports, declassified decades later, noted only one major rail transport and communication centre in the city, along with housing some secondary factories and around 50,000 workers supporting the German war effort

Winston Churchill: Churchill expressed doubts about the bombing, saying it was "a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing"]

Also important to note that the mass bombing took place in Feb. of 1945....Berlin fell in April of 1945

The war was essentially over. Germany had basically lost the ability to continue to resist and 8 weeks later the war would be over.

The Allies were running out of targets....that is why Dresden was selected....more than it having any vital military importance

And it killed about 25,000 civilians....lots of them women and children....and destroying one of the most beautiful cities in Central Europe

[An RAF memo issued to airmen on the night of the attack gave some reasoning for the raid:

Quote:

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Dresden, the seventh largest city in Germany and not much smaller than Manchester is also the largest unbombed builtup area the enemy has got. In the midst of winter with refugees pouring westward and troops to be rested, roofs are at a premium, not only to give shelter to workers, refugees, and troops alike..]

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In February 1945 the Red Army was pushing towards Berlin. Of course communications centers were important for the retreating Wehrmacht. Dresden was one of those.

Hindsight is 20-20. It's easy to say that the war was essentially over. Except the Germans had not surrendered nor showed any signs that they would. The surrender did not come until May 8, eight days after Hitler committed suicide (April 30). The Nazis were fanatics & Hitler wanted to go down in a blaze of glory. It's impossible to say what someone 80 years ago knew about what was going to happen & when. No one knew then what was going to happen anymore than we do now.

historian said:

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In February 1945 the Red Army was pushing towards Berlin. Of course communications centers were important for the retreating Wehrmacht. Dresden was one of those.

Hindsight is 20-20. It's easy to say that the war was essentially over. Except the Germans had not surrendered nor showed any signs that they would. The surrender did not come until May 8, eight days after Hitler committed suicide (April 30). The Nazis were fanatics & Hitler wanted to go down in a blaze of glory. It's impossible to say what someone 80 years ago knew about what was going to happen & when. No one knew then what was going to happen anymore than we do now.

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Good grief the Russians were swarming toward Germany from the east while the Americans , British and French were coming from the west.

The 8th Air Force was pulverizing German factories , the allies had total air supremacy and absolute control of Atlantic shipping lanes.

German solders were desperately attempting to surrender to the British and Americans rather than being executed by the French or Russians.

The war was effectively won.

Fire bombing Dresden was not only unnecessary……it was mass murder.

And yet the Germans kept fighting. We should also remember that in early December 1945 the Americans were about to enter Germany and believed the war was almost over. Then the Battle of the Bulge happened.

The Germans also had V-2 rockets and jet aircraft. In the end, these innovations didn't really change anything but maybe they added to the uncertainty.

Again, it's easy for us to say the war was won in February 1945. We know what happened next. The Allied leaders didn't. America's leaders probably also had in the back of their minds the reality that the war against Japan still had a long way to go. Few knew about the Manhattan Project existed much less that it would succeed as well as it did.

KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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Militarily, Dresden was a valid target. It was being used as a staging area for movements on the eastern front. Nevertheless, it was horrific and very sad as were the bombings of Cologne, Berlin, Munich, Nuremberg, & other German cities. But we should not forget London, Manchester, Coventry, and other cities bombed by the Luftwaffe. The war in Europe was started by Germany (with a lot of help from Stalin) and included the Holocaust plus many other atrocities. It is the ultimate example of total war.

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Bull****

The British Air Marshall knew Dresden was unimportant militarily…admitted the sole purpose was to inflict terror

Winners write the history books usually and the allies committed atrocities

Dresden was merely one example

There are many others

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Hamburg says "hello".

historian said:

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And yet the Germans kept fighting. We should also remember that in early December 1945 the Americans were about to enter Germany and believed the war was almost over. Then the Battle of the Bulge happened.

The Germans also had V-2 rockets and jet aircraft. In the end, these innovations didn't really change anything but maybe they added to the uncertainty.

Again, it's easy for us to say the war was won in February 1945. We know what happened next. The Allied leaders didn't. America's leaders probably also had in the back of their minds the reality that the war against Japan still had a long way to go. Few knew about the Manhattan Project existed much less that it would succeed as well as it did.

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It was mass murder.

Period

But what's done is done. Those responsible are now just as dead as their Dresden victims.

historian said:

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In February 1945 the Red Army was pushing towards Berlin. Of course communications centers were important for the retreating Wehrmacht. Dresden was one of those.

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So important that the Soviets (known for their viciousness and cruelty) did not even ask for Dresden to be bombed

They wanted more bombing raids on Berlin and the retreating German army troops retreating out of East Prussia....they were not interested in bombing Dresden

[according to Richard Overy, the discussion with the Soviet Chief of Staff, Aleksei Antonov, recorded in the minutes, only mentions the requested bombing of Berlin and Leipzig. The bombing of Dresden was a Western plan, but the Soviets were told in advance about the operation]

It would be better if we could all just admit it was a bloody mistake in a terrible war with lots of mistakes and horror all around.

The Brits bombed it because it had not been bombed yet (and it was full of civilians) and they did it to punish the German people. America went along with it because the British pushed for it (even though U.S. high command was reluctant to do it)

[Critics of the bombing argue that Dresden was a cultural landmark with little strategic significance, and that the attacks were indiscriminate area bombing and were not proportionate to military gains

British historian Frederick Taylor mentions a further memo sent to the Chiefs of Staff Committee by Air Marshal Sir Douglas Evill on 1 February, in which Evill states interfering with mass civilian movements was a key factor in the decision to bomb the city centre. Attacking main railway junctions, telephone systems, city administration and utilities would result in "chaos"]

I read somewhere (cannot remember where) that Churchill specifically chose Dresden as pay back for what the Germans did to Coventry. It's a curious theory that may have some merit. This does not change the strategic aspects of the decision.

historian said:

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I read somewhere (cannot remember where) that Churchill specifically chose Dresden as pay back for what the Germans did to Coventry. It's a curious theory that may have some merit. This does not change the strategic aspects of the decision.

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I don't think that is accurate (but its possible)

He apparently was not pleased with the death toll and outcome

[Winston Churchill: Churchill expressed doubts about the bombing, saying it was "a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing"]

Not to mention the Dresden bombing took place in Feb. of 1945

There had been no major German attacks on the UK since Feb. 1943

And the Brits had already paid the Germans back by reducing to rubble most of their cities

[The last major German bombing attack on the United Kingdom was Operation Steinbock, which took place in January and February 1943. After this, the Germans used V-1 flying bombs and V-2 rockets in sporadic attacks]

Since people are talking about Dresden

Good to see they rebuilt the historic church at the heart of the city

Rebuild Notre-Dame de Paris - just as the Saxons rebuilt their church in Dresden!

The Dresden Frauenkirche, which was destroyed in a bombing raid in 1945, was completely reconstructed fifteen years ago. The surrounding buildings were also rebuilt.

It can be done! pic.twitter.com/YMj4x2mTIv

— ArchitecturalRevival (@Arch_Revival_) May 3, 2019

When I visited Dresden in 2003 the Frauenkirche was still being restored. The DDR had left it as a pile of rubble for over 40 years and after reunification they raised the funds for the restoration. IIRC, they were trying to use as much of the original pieces as possible and reassembling it like a giant jigsaw puzzle. It's fascinating. The goal was to have it open in time for the anniversary of the attack in 2005.

KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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Militarily, Dresden was a valid target. It was being used as a staging area for movements on the eastern front. Nevertheless, it was horrific and very sad as were the bombings of Cologne, Berlin, Munich, Nuremberg, & other German cities. But we should not forget London, Manchester, Coventry, and other cities bombed by the Luftwaffe. The war in Europe was started by Germany (with a lot of help from Stalin) and included the Holocaust plus many other atrocities. It is the ultimate example of total war.

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Bull****

The British Air Marshall knew Dresden was unimportant militarily…admitted the sole purpose was to inflict terror

Winners write the history books usually and the allies committed atrocities

Dresden was merely one example

There are many others

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Listen, when enemies initiate atrocities, the most effective strategy is often counter-atrocities. War is hell…get over it Karen.

BellCountyBear said:

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KaiBear said:

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historian said:

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Militarily, Dresden was a valid target. It was being used as a staging area for movements on the eastern front. Nevertheless, it was horrific and very sad as were the bombings of Cologne, Berlin, Munich, Nuremberg, & other German cities. But we should not forget London, Manchester, Coventry, and other cities bombed by the Luftwaffe. The war in Europe was started by Germany (with a lot of help from Stalin) and included the Holocaust plus many other atrocities. It is the ultimate example of total war.

---

Bull****

The British Air Marshall knew Dresden was unimportant militarily…admitted the sole purpose was to inflict terror

Winners write the history books usually and the allies committed atrocities

Dresden was merely one example

There are many others

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Listen, when enemies initiate atrocities, the most effective strategy is often counter-atrocities. War is hell…get over it Karen.

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Brilliant comment which justifies incinerating tens of thousands of women and children for absolutely no military reason.

Bet you were a regular Rambo in your front line fire team.

fubar said:

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Comparing what is happening right now in Los Angeles to WW2 Dresden makes as much sense as, oh, let me think, comparing 1/6/2021 to the Holocaust.

It really is that ****ing stupid.

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If you look at pictures, it looks similar in areas. Nobody is talking about anything other than the level of destruction.