El Oso said:

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You said, and this is a quote, "The point is the voucher is of no help to those in special educational needs."
Then maybe I misspoke. I meant vouchers are of no help to the low income public school kids. Yes, the government is responsible for that child. They are people, humans within our state and for better or for worse citizens are responsible for children within our borders. We take them as they are .Sure, vouchers could pay for those programs for low income, SpEd kids but to me it is disingenuous to think private school can scale up to take care of those kids. Yes, the government is responsible for the most vulnerable e kids in our state -- we owe them food, healthcare, and a quality education. The state of Texas is failing these kids. Government has no business using my tax dollars for private schools. They are their own their own.

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Waco1947 said:

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El Oso said:

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You said, and this is a quote, "The point is the voucher is of no help to those in special educational needs."
Then maybe I misspoke. I meant vouchers are of no help to the low income public school kids. Yes, the government is responsible for that child. They are people, humans within our state and for better or for worse citizens are responsible for children within our borders. We take them as they are .Sure, vouchers could pay for those programs for low income, SpEd kids but to me it is disingenuous to think private school can scale up to take care of those kids. Yes, the government is responsible for the most vulnerable e kids in our state -- we owe them food, healthcare, and a quality education. The state of Texas is failing these kids. Government has no business using my tax dollars for private schools. They are their own their own.

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You changed your wording and my scenario still proves it wrong. It also demonstrates you have zero idea about how the education system in Texas actually works. In my scenario, John Doe's kid went to a Title 1 school. It doesn't get any more low income public school than that. That is the reason I made sure I used a Title 1 school. Title 1 is the absolute lowest a public school in Texas can be ranked. The ranking has nothing to do with the education provided by the school. It means 40%, or more, of the student body is from a low-income family. At the two title one schools I worked at, the number was nearly 75%. One of the two Title 1 schools I worked at was in the 5th most likely zip code in Texas a person was most likely to end up in jail at some point in their life. We called it the school to prison pipeline. Lots of interesting stories there. Remember, John Doe's kid was at not only a Title 1 school, but a dangerous school. No matter how you change your wording, my scenario disproves it and my scenario exists in every single city in this state.

And you seem to know nothing about private schools either. While they do not have to, many actually do provide special education programs similar to, and in the case of Shelton High School and a few others, exceeding those offered by public schools. So, if many schools are already meeting the standard, and a few are exceeding it, how exactly, and I mean be very specific, is it disingenuous to think private schools can scale up? Maybe it's because they don't have to because they already have.

Wait a minute. If the government is responsible to feed, provide healthcare, and educate students with a quality education, just exactly whose tax dollars are they supposed to use?

Again, there are valid reasons vouchers are a bad idea. I have counted about five from other posters based on the factual evidence I keep telling you to go look at, yet you continue to double down on your misrepresentations and out right lies.

El Oso said:

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Waco1947 said:

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El Oso said:

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You said, and this is a quote, "The point is the voucher is of no help to those in special educational needs."
Then maybe I misspoke. I meant vouchers are of no help to the low income public school kids. Yes, the government is responsible for that child. They are people, humans within our state and for better or for worse citizens are responsible for children within our borders. We take them as they are .Sure, vouchers could pay for those programs for low income, SpEd kids but to me it is disingenuous to think private school can scale up to take care of those kids. Yes, the government is responsible for the most vulnerable e kids in our state -- we owe them food, healthcare, and a quality education. The state of Texas is failing these kids. Government has no business using my tax dollars for private schools. They are their own their own.

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You changed your wording and my scenario still proves it wrong. I acknowledged I changed my wording for clarification.
It also demonstrates you have zero idea about how the education system in Texas actually works. In my scenario, You miss my point which I clarified " I meant vouchers are of no help to the low income public school kids." Vouchers possibly deprive public schools of much needed funds and the govt has no business supporting those private interests for the wealthy.
No matter how you change your wording, my scenario disproves it and my scenario exists in every single city in this state.

And you seem to know nothing about private schools either. Of course I know nothing about private schools. I simply know that the wealthy are asking for a hand out.

Wait a minute. If the government is responsible to feed, provide healthcare, and educate students with a quality education, just exactly whose tax dollars are they supposed to use? I'm sorry what's your point?

Again, there are valid reasons vouchers are a bad idea. I have counted about five from other posters based on the factual evidence I keep telling you to go look at, yet you continue to double down on your misrepresentations and out right lies. I have not doubled down on misrepresentations. and stated wealth people don't need vouchers.

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You may have changed for clarification, but you used different words that mean the exact same thing. You continually demonstrate you don't even have a basic understanding of how this works because when you changed the words, my exact scenario still applied 100% and rebutted your claim as a gross misrepresentation of reality.

Now you've changed the words again. And while vouchers may deprive public schools of funding, now the debate gets interesting. First, public schools are deprived of funding every year. The amount given to the school district per student has not changed since pre-covid. That's five years of flat funding. In other words, defunding is already happening in a way because costs per students have skyrocketed in that same five years. In the last two years alone the shortcoming is $5.6 million dollars on just one budget line (school security) in the district my kids attend.

Second, and the bigger point that again demonstrates you have no idea how this actually works is this. Schools get money from the government per kid that attends. Let's keep it simple. School A (a public school) has an enrollment of 100. School B (a private school) has an enrollment of 100 students. School A loses 15 kids to vouchers. School B gains 15 kids due to vouchers. School A lost money, but all that money now went to school B. The money follows the kids. It's why big districts get a lot of money and little districts get a little money. The money follows students. In other words, the funding of the government stayed flat.

Are you really trying to argue that if School A is bad enough that students leave to go to a better school (School B), it's the government's job to give School A money for students they no longer serve? Are you further arguing that it is now the job of the parent's who changed schools to fund both schools? That money should follow the child should it not?

I'm glad you admitted you don't know how this works because you said the wealthy want a handout. That's not what is happening here either. Wealthy parents pay property taxes just like poor parents. Rich parents whose kids attend private schools are putting money into a system that does not give their tax dollars to their schools (private schools). In some cases, they may get a small contribution, but again, some private schools get no money from the government.

With vouchers, all parents now get their tax dollars back to help with their education costs at the school of their choosing not of the state's choosing. The kicker is, poor parents not only get their money back too, they get even more money back because the rich pay higher property taxes than the poor do. Yes, I understand rich people make more money, so it is easier for a rich person to afford the $2.29/$100,000 property tax rate in Dallas, but they do contribute more to the pool at the end of the day and vouchers are distributed on an as needed total income basis. This means the poor family's voucher will be higher than the rich family's. Now who got the handout?

My point in the earlier post was this, if you are right that the government is responsible for my children and not me, then I'm doing it wrong by spending my money to keep them alive, fed, and educated. According to you, that's the government's job not mine.

You continue to double down on misrepresentations and outright lies. You can't help but do that when you continue to argue your initial post was correct. You said you misspoke and changed the words. That did nothing to change the actual scenario. Now you've changed the scenario and you are still very wrong about how it works.

Let me give you the talking points to focus on so you don't harm the anti-voucher side with the bull**** you have been posting that makes us look bad.
1. There is no direct evidence that supports states with vouchers have better education systems than states without vouchers. In fact, of the bottom 10 states in education, four have school voucher programs.
2. There is no research tying student achievement to the use of school vouchers. In other words, we have no proof they actually work.
3. Based on what happened when the federal government got involved in financial aid at the college level, it stands to reason schools will raise tuition once the government starts giving parents vouchers (the equivalent of financial aid). This will make education unaffordable for a large number of families.
4. Most private schools in Texas are at max enrollment. Study after study shows education works best with small class sizes. Vouchers will either not work because enrollment is capped or it will cause enrollment to go up which will lead to larger class sizes and reduce the quality of education.
5. Education systems should be accountable. Vouchers offer no suggestions for accountability let alone how to measure it.
There are more, but these five won't make you look like you have an agenda based on terrible information.

need arbys vouchers as well.

- kkm

dese utes need to eats.

D!

El Oso said:

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You may have changed for clarification, but you used different words that mean the exact same thing. You continually demonstrate you don't even have a basic understanding of how this works because when you changed the words, my exact scenario still applied 100% and rebutted your claim as a gross misrepresentation of reality. "Gross misrepresentation of reality" Again, I see my error.

Now you've changed the words again. And while vouchers may deprive public schools of funding, now the debate gets interesting. First, public schools are deprived of funding every year. The amount given to the school district per student has not changed since pre-covid. That's five years of flat funding. In other words, defunding is already happening in a way because costs per students have skyrocketed in that same five years. In the last two years alone the shortcoming is $5.6 million dollars on just one budget line (school security) in the district my kids attend.

Second, and the bigger point that again demonstrates you have no idea how this actually works is this. Schools get money from the government per kid that attends. Let's keep it simple. School A (a public school) has an enrollment of 100. School B (a private school) has an enrollment of 100 students. School A loses 15 kids to vouchers. School B gains 15 kids due to vouchers. School A lost money, but all that money now went to school B. The money follows the kids. It's why big districts get a lot of money and little districts get a little money. The money follows students. In other words, the funding of the government stayed flat.

Are you really trying to argue that if School A is bad enough that students leave to go to a better school (School B), it's the government's job to give School A money for students they no longer serve? Are you further arguing that it is now the job of the parent's who changed schools to fund both schools? That money should follow the child should it not? I don't know know. And sounds like you are right

I'm glad you admitted you don't know how this works because you said the wealthy want a handout. That's not what is happening here either. Wealthy parents pay property taxes just like poor parents. Rich parents whose kids attend private schools are putting money into a system that does not give their tax dollars to their schools (private schools). In some cases, they may get a small contribution, but again, some private schools get no money from the government.

With vouchers, all parents now get their tax dollars back to help with their education costs at the school of their choosing not of the state's choosing. The kicker is, poor parents not only get their money back too, they get even more money back because the rich pay higher property taxes than the poor do. Yes, I understand rich people make more money, so it is easier for a rich person to afford the $2.29/$100,000 property tax rate in Dallas, but they do contribute more to the pool at the end of the day and vouchers are distributed on an as needed total income basis. This means the poor family's voucher will be higher than the rich family's. Now who got the handout?

My point in the earlier post was this, if you are right that the government is responsible for my children and not me, then I'm doing it wrong by spending my money to keep them alive, fed, and educated. According to you, that's the government's job not mine. If you were the working poor then yes the government needs to help you.

You continue to double down on misrepresentations and outright lies. You can't help but do that when you continue to argue your initial post was correct. You said you misspoke and changed the words. That did nothing to change the actual scenario. Now you've changed the scenario and you are still very wrong about how it works Thank you, I see error.

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I appreciate the feedback and understand your position and agree with it. I am willing to learn. Thank you for your insights. I was wrong.

El Oso said:

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Let me give you the talking points to focus on so you don't harm the anti-voucher side with the bull**** you have been posting that makes us look bad.
1. There is no direct evidence that supports states with vouchers have better education systems than states without vouchers. In fact, of the bottom 10 states in education, four have school voucher programs.
2. There is no research tying student achievement to the use of school vouchers. In other words, we have no proof they actually work.
3. Based on what happened when the federal government got involved in financial aid at the college level, it stands to reason schools will raise tuition once the government starts giving parents vouchers (the equivalent of financial aid). This will make education unaffordable for a large number of families.
4. Most private schools in Texas are at max enrollment. Study after study shows education works best with small class sizes. Vouchers will either not work because enrollment is capped or it will cause enrollment to go up which will lead to larger class sizes and reduce the quality of education.
5. Education systems should be accountable. Vouchers offer no suggestions for accountability let alone how to measure it.
There are more, but these five won't make you look like you have an agenda based on terrible information.

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Vouchers will grow the number of private schools and academies.

The public school system shot itself in the foot by adopting progressive garbage. Now sane people don't want their kids being groomed by progressives and are tired of the public school BS. The only reason sane people want their kids to go to public school is due to the sports and activities.

Hopefully the Governor will figure out how to create open enrollment sports teams that compete in the same league as the public schools.