Oldbear83 said:

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"At the core of it, it is in our best interest to give Ukraine guarantees. "

That's a real good way to make the war permanent.

This war is no good for anyone.

Putin needs an out so he can rebuild his army and his economy.

Zelensky needs to understand no one is going to flood Ukraine with soldiers in the foolish hope they can force Russia out of the territory the Russians holds. Ukraine cannot win an outright campaign with Russia, the Russians simply have so many men and Ukraine so few that Ukraine needs a deal to survive as a nation.

Trump wants a peace deal for a number of reasons, but Putin and Zelensky need to understand that Trump does not need to accept a deal which he does not believe will last or give stability to the region.

The Rare Metals deal is one Zelensky should take, because among other things it will create an American interest in Ukraine that Putin will understand he does not want to affect, and it will provide incentive for US companies to help Ukraine rebuild after the war. Because side from everything else, Ukraine is in ruins and needs foreign investment to have any chance of being a viable nation.

That Zelensky could come here and lecture Vance instead of grasping the situation, not only insults everyone on the US side but demonstrates an incredibly foolish arrogance by Zelensky.

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Married A Horn said:

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Porteroso said:

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I'm pretty disappointed with Vance. From the transcript, Vance basically stepped in and tried to power play Zelensky. Just dumb, and of course Trump wants to be worshipped, not told that if Russia keeps invading, the US will "feel influenced." Trump responds with "We are going to feel very good and very strong." and it just devolves from there.

You know what though, let me post the transcript. You guys just read it for yourself. I think it's embarrassing. This isn't the time to hold Zelensky to account, it's the time to end the Russian invasion of Ukraine. It's ok if Zelensky says a few words, he's about to hand over 50% of Ukraine's rare earths to the United States.

I don't think this is the full transcript, but sections, from the AP.

Quote:

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Vance: "For four years, the United States of America, we had a president who stood up at press conferences and talked tough about Vladimir Putin, and then Putin invaded Ukraine and destroyed a significant chunk of the country. The path to peace and the path to prosperity is, maybe, engaging in diplomacy. We tried the pathway of Joe Biden, of thumping our chest and pretending that the president of the United States' words mattered more than the president of the United States' actions. What makes America a good country is America engaging in diplomacy. That's what President Trump is doing."

Zelenskyy: "Can I ask you?"

Vance: "Sure. Yeah."

Zelenskyy: "OK. So he (Putin) occupied it, our parts, big parts of Ukraine, parts of east and Crimea. So he occupied it in 2014. So during a lot of years I'm not speaking about just Biden, but those times was (Barack) Obama, then President Obama, then President Trump, then President Biden, now President Trump. And God bless, now, President Trump will stop him. But during 2014, nobody stopped him. He just occupied and took. He killed people. You know what the --"

Trump: "2015?"

Zelenskyy: "2014."

Trump: "Oh, 2014? I was not here."

Vance: "That's exactly right."

Zelenskyy: "Yes, but during 2014 'til 2022, the situation is the same, that people have been dying on the contact line. Nobody stopped him. You know that we had conversations with him, a lot of conversations, my bilateral conversation. And we signed with him, me, like, you, president, in 2019, I signed with him the deal. I signed with him, (French President Emmanuel) Macron and (former German Chancellor Angela) Merkel. We signed ceasefire. Ceasefire. All of them told me that he will never go … But after that, he broke the ceasefire, he killed our people, and he didn't exchange prisoners. We signed the exchange of prisoners. But he didn't do it. What kind of diplomacy, JD, you are speaking about? What do you mean?"

Vance: "I'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that's going to end the destruction of your country. Mr. President, with respect, I think it's disrespectful for you to come into the Oval Office to try to litigate this in front of the American media. Right now, you guys are going around and forcing conscripts to the front lines because you have manpower problems. You should be thanking the president for trying to bring an end to this conflict."

Zelenskyy: "Have you ever been to Ukraine that you say what problems we have?"

Vance: "I have been to "

Zelenskyy: "Come once."

Vance: "I've actually watched and seen the stories, and I know that what happens is you bring people, you bring them on a propaganda tour, Mr. President. Do you disagree that you've had problems, bringing people into your military?"

Zelenskyy: "We have problems "

Vance: "And do you think that is respectful to come to the Oval Office of the United States of America and attack the administration that is trying to prevent the destruction of your country?"

Zelenskyy: "A lot of questions. Let's start from the beginning."

Vance: "Sure."

Zelenskyy: "First of all, during the war, everybody has problems, even you. But you have nice ocean and don't feel now. But you will feel it in the future. God bless "

Trump: "You don't know that. You don't know that. Don't tell us what we're going to feel. We're trying to solve a problem. Don't tell us what we're going to feel."

Zelenskyy: "I'm not telling you. I am answering on these questions."

Trump: "Because you're in no position to dictate that."

Vance: "That's exactly what you're doing."

Trump: "You are in no position to dictate what we're going to feel. We're going to feel very good."

Zelenskyy: "You will feel influenced."

Trump: "We are going to feel very good and very strong."

Zelenskyy: "I am telling you. You will feel influenced."

Trump: "You're, right now, not in a very good position. You've allowed yourself to be in a very bad position "

Zelenskyy: "From the very beginning of the war "

Trump: "You're not in a good position. You don't have the cards right now. With us, you start having cards."

Zelenskyy: "I'm not playing cards. I'm very serious, Mr. President. I'm very serious."

Trump: "You're playing cards. You're gambling with the lives of millions of people. You're gambling with World War III."

Zelenskyy: "What are you speaking about?"

Trump: "You're gambling with World War III. And what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country that's backed you far more than a lot of people said they should have."

Vance: "Have you said thank you once?"

Zelenskyy: "A lot of times. Even today."

Vance: "No, in this entire meeting. You went to Pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in October."

Zelenskyy: "No."

Vance: "Offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America and the president who's trying to save your country."

Zelenskyy: "Please. You think that if you will speak very loudly about the war, you can "

Trump: "He's not speaking loudly. He's not speaking loudly. Your country is in big trouble."

Zelenskyy: "Can I answer "

Trump: "No, no. You've done a lot of talking. Your country is in big trouble."

Zelenskyy: "I know. I know."

Trump: "You're not winning. You're not winning this. You have a damn good chance of coming out OK because of us."

Zelenskyy: "Mr. President, we are staying in our country, staying strong. From the very beginning of the war, we've been alone. And we are thankful. I said thanks."

Trump: "If you didn't have our military equipment, this war would have been over in two weeks."

Zelenskyy: "In three days. I heard it from Putin. In three days."

Trump: "Maybe less. It's going to be a very hard thing to do business like this, I tell you.

Vance: "Just say thank you."

Zelenskyy: "I said a lot of times, thank you, to American people."

Vance: "Accept that there are disagreements, and let's go litigate those disagreements rather than trying to fight it out in the American media when you're wrong. We know that you're wrong."

Trump: "But you see, I think it's good for the American people to see what's going on. I think it's very important. That's why I kept this going so long. You have to be thankful."

Zelenskyy: "I'm thankful."

Trump: "You don't have the cards. You're buried there. People are dying. You're running low on soldiers. It would be a damn good thing, and then you tell us, 'I don't want a ceasefire. I don't want a ceasefire, I want to go, and I want this.' Look, if you can get a ceasefire right now, I tell you, you take it so the bullets stop flying and your men stop getting killed."

Zelenskyy: "Of course we want to stop the war. But I said to you, with guarantees."

Trump: "Are you saying you don't want a ceasefire? I want a ceasefire. Because you'll get a ceasefire faster than an agreement."

Zelenskyy: "Ask our people about a ceasefire, what they think."

Trump: "That wasn't with me. That was with a guy named Biden, who is not a smart person."

Zelenskyy: "This is your president. It was your president."

Trump: "Excuse me. That was with Obama, who gave you sheets, and I gave you Javelins. I gave you the Javelins to take out all those tanks. Obama gave you sheets. In fact, the statement is Obama gave sheets, and Trump gave Javelins. You've got to be more thankful because let me tell you, you don't have the cards. With us, you have the cards, but without us, you don't have any cards."

---

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We're not surprised you're disappointed at Vance. Post when you actually say something that will surprise us.

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Zelensky just had to keep his mouth shut after Vance said Trump was a strong actions president. But no, Zelensky just had to try and pander to the media. Then instead of just shutting up and politely relent and move behind closed doors, he had to argue.

I guarantee he and his advisors saw Macron's visit and they thought he should stand up to Trump and be tough on TV. Clearly he got bad advice.

Plus this guy came and effectively campaigned against Trump. Seems like he'd have been a better guest.

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Consider what they're talking about, what this proposed deal is. I haven't followed it too closely, but it seems Trump wants natural resources in return for nothing more than talking to Putin and getting a cease fire, then he wants to do "diplomacy" and negotiate a long term peace deal.

So the very last thing any Ukranian would do would be to say "oh sure, let me keep my mouth shut when they talk about strong action." Because there were already documents signed after Crimea, and guess what happened? There is no trusting Russia's word, and it remains to be seen even how much sway Trump has over Putin. That's what this is boiling down to.

I just think it's embarrassing. Zelensky is trying to get peace for his war torn nation, and Vance is counting how many times he says thank you per conversation. How you could support that is just insane.

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Married A Horn said:

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Porteroso said:

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I'm pretty disappointed with Vance. From the transcript, Vance basically stepped in and tried to power play Zelensky. Just dumb, and of course Trump wants to be worshipped, not told that if Russia keeps invading, the US will "feel influenced." Trump responds with "We are going to feel very good and very strong." and it just devolves from there.

You know what though, let me post the transcript. You guys just read it for yourself. I think it's embarrassing. This isn't the time to hold Zelensky to account, it's the time to end the Russian invasion of Ukraine. It's ok if Zelensky says a few words, he's about to hand over 50% of Ukraine's rare earths to the United States.

I don't think this is the full transcript, but sections, from the AP.

Quote:

---

Vance: "For four years, the United States of America, we had a president who stood up at press conferences and talked tough about Vladimir Putin, and then Putin invaded Ukraine and destroyed a significant chunk of the country. The path to peace and the path to prosperity is, maybe, engaging in diplomacy. We tried the pathway of Joe Biden, of thumping our chest and pretending that the president of the United States' words mattered more than the president of the United States' actions. What makes America a good country is America engaging in diplomacy. That's what President Trump is doing."

Zelenskyy: "Can I ask you?"

Vance: "Sure. Yeah."

Zelenskyy: "OK. So he (Putin) occupied it, our parts, big parts of Ukraine, parts of east and Crimea. So he occupied it in 2014. So during a lot of years I'm not speaking about just Biden, but those times was (Barack) Obama, then President Obama, then President Trump, then President Biden, now President Trump. And God bless, now, President Trump will stop him. But during 2014, nobody stopped him. He just occupied and took. He killed people. You know what the --"

Trump: "2015?"

Zelenskyy: "2014."

Trump: "Oh, 2014? I was not here."

Vance: "That's exactly right."

Zelenskyy: "Yes, but during 2014 'til 2022, the situation is the same, that people have been dying on the contact line. Nobody stopped him. You know that we had conversations with him, a lot of conversations, my bilateral conversation. And we signed with him, me, like, you, president, in 2019, I signed with him the deal. I signed with him, (French President Emmanuel) Macron and (former German Chancellor Angela) Merkel. We signed ceasefire. Ceasefire. All of them told me that he will never go … But after that, he broke the ceasefire, he killed our people, and he didn't exchange prisoners. We signed the exchange of prisoners. But he didn't do it. What kind of diplomacy, JD, you are speaking about? What do you mean?"

Vance: "I'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that's going to end the destruction of your country. Mr. President, with respect, I think it's disrespectful for you to come into the Oval Office to try to litigate this in front of the American media. Right now, you guys are going around and forcing conscripts to the front lines because you have manpower problems. You should be thanking the president for trying to bring an end to this conflict."

Zelenskyy: "Have you ever been to Ukraine that you say what problems we have?"

Vance: "I have been to "

Zelenskyy: "Come once."

Vance: "I've actually watched and seen the stories, and I know that what happens is you bring people, you bring them on a propaganda tour, Mr. President. Do you disagree that you've had problems, bringing people into your military?"

Zelenskyy: "We have problems "

Vance: "And do you think that is respectful to come to the Oval Office of the United States of America and attack the administration that is trying to prevent the destruction of your country?"

Zelenskyy: "A lot of questions. Let's start from the beginning."

Vance: "Sure."

Zelenskyy: "First of all, during the war, everybody has problems, even you. But you have nice ocean and don't feel now. But you will feel it in the future. God bless "

Trump: "You don't know that. You don't know that. Don't tell us what we're going to feel. We're trying to solve a problem. Don't tell us what we're going to feel."

Zelenskyy: "I'm not telling you. I am answering on these questions."

Trump: "Because you're in no position to dictate that."

Vance: "That's exactly what you're doing."

Trump: "You are in no position to dictate what we're going to feel. We're going to feel very good."

Zelenskyy: "You will feel influenced."

Trump: "We are going to feel very good and very strong."

Zelenskyy: "I am telling you. You will feel influenced."

Trump: "You're, right now, not in a very good position. You've allowed yourself to be in a very bad position "

Zelenskyy: "From the very beginning of the war "

Trump: "You're not in a good position. You don't have the cards right now. With us, you start having cards."

Zelenskyy: "I'm not playing cards. I'm very serious, Mr. President. I'm very serious."

Trump: "You're playing cards. You're gambling with the lives of millions of people. You're gambling with World War III."

Zelenskyy: "What are you speaking about?"

Trump: "You're gambling with World War III. And what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country that's backed you far more than a lot of people said they should have."

Vance: "Have you said thank you once?"

Zelenskyy: "A lot of times. Even today."

Vance: "No, in this entire meeting. You went to Pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in October."

Zelenskyy: "No."

Vance: "Offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America and the president who's trying to save your country."

Zelenskyy: "Please. You think that if you will speak very loudly about the war, you can "

Trump: "He's not speaking loudly. He's not speaking loudly. Your country is in big trouble."

Zelenskyy: "Can I answer "

Trump: "No, no. You've done a lot of talking. Your country is in big trouble."

Zelenskyy: "I know. I know."

Trump: "You're not winning. You're not winning this. You have a damn good chance of coming out OK because of us."

Zelenskyy: "Mr. President, we are staying in our country, staying strong. From the very beginning of the war, we've been alone. And we are thankful. I said thanks."

Trump: "If you didn't have our military equipment, this war would have been over in two weeks."

Zelenskyy: "In three days. I heard it from Putin. In three days."

Trump: "Maybe less. It's going to be a very hard thing to do business like this, I tell you.

Vance: "Just say thank you."

Zelenskyy: "I said a lot of times, thank you, to American people."

Vance: "Accept that there are disagreements, and let's go litigate those disagreements rather than trying to fight it out in the American media when you're wrong. We know that you're wrong."

Trump: "But you see, I think it's good for the American people to see what's going on. I think it's very important. That's why I kept this going so long. You have to be thankful."

Zelenskyy: "I'm thankful."

Trump: "You don't have the cards. You're buried there. People are dying. You're running low on soldiers. It would be a damn good thing, and then you tell us, 'I don't want a ceasefire. I don't want a ceasefire, I want to go, and I want this.' Look, if you can get a ceasefire right now, I tell you, you take it so the bullets stop flying and your men stop getting killed."

Zelenskyy: "Of course we want to stop the war. But I said to you, with guarantees."

Trump: "Are you saying you don't want a ceasefire? I want a ceasefire. Because you'll get a ceasefire faster than an agreement."

Zelenskyy: "Ask our people about a ceasefire, what they think."

Trump: "That wasn't with me. That was with a guy named Biden, who is not a smart person."

Zelenskyy: "This is your president. It was your president."

Trump: "Excuse me. That was with Obama, who gave you sheets, and I gave you Javelins. I gave you the Javelins to take out all those tanks. Obama gave you sheets. In fact, the statement is Obama gave sheets, and Trump gave Javelins. You've got to be more thankful because let me tell you, you don't have the cards. With us, you have the cards, but without us, you don't have any cards."

---

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We're not surprised you're disappointed at Vance. Post when you actually say something that will surprise us.

---

Zelensky just had to keep his mouth shut after Vance said Trump was a strong actions president. But no, Zelensky just had to try and pander to the media. Then instead of just shutting up and politely relent and move behind closed doors, he had to argue.

I guarantee he and his advisors saw Macron's visit and they thought he should stand up to Trump and be tough on TV. Clearly he got bad advice.

Plus this guy came and effectively campaigned against Trump. Seems like he'd have been a better guest.

---

Consider what they're talking about, what this proposed deal is. I haven't followed it too closely, but it seems Trump wants natural resources in return for nothing more than talking to Putin and getting a cease fire, then he wants to do "diplomacy" and negotiate a long term peace deal.

So the very last thing any Ukranian would do would be to say "oh sure, let me keep my mouth shut when they talk about strong action." Because there were already documents signed after Crimea, and guess what happened? There is no trusting Russia's word, and it remains to be seen even how much sway Trump has over Putin. That's what this is boiling down to.

I just think it's embarrassing. Zelensky is trying to get peace for his war torn nation, and Vance is counting how many times he says thank you per conversation. How you could support that is just insane.

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The US has zero at stake in Ukraine. By have the minerals the US then has a stake

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Gkelly said:

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Funny how you speak for all Americans. As a former United States Navy officer, it would be an honor to return to service to help defend Ukraine and to promote democracy.

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They're taking volunteers.

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Gkelly said:

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Funny how you speak for all Americans. As a former United States Navy officer, it would be an honor to return to service to help defend Ukraine and to promote democracy.

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They're taking volunteers.

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It won't take that. And many volunteers already went. Good for them, they took a stance. Now is the time for peace, for negotiating a deal between Ukraine and Russia. You remember, like Trump promised to do?

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Gkelly said:

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Funny how you speak for all Americans. As a former United States Navy officer, it would be an honor to return to service to help defend Ukraine and to promote democracy.

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They're taking volunteers.

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It won't take that. And many volunteers already went. Good for them, they took a stance. Now is the time for peace, for negotiating a deal between Ukraine and Russia. You remember, like Trump promised to do?

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Trump is doing exactly that. By exposing Zelenskyy as the biggest obstacle to peace. Zelenskyy wants to win outright. And will continue to fight until the situation is worsened and escalated.
I feel for Ukraine, but maybe you have a better alternative to the situation.
Honestly Europe needs to step up. America will help if they do. But they're not willing due to the risks. Tough situation.

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Gkelly said:

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Funny how you speak for all Americans. As a former United States Navy officer, it would be an honor to return to service to help defend Ukraine and to promote democracy.

---

They're taking volunteers.

---

It won't take that. And many volunteers already went. Good for them, they took a stance. Now is the time for peace, for negotiating a deal between Ukraine and Russia. You remember, like Trump promised to do?

---

Trump is doing exactly that. By exposing Zelenskyy as the biggest obstacle to peace. Zelenskyy wants to win outright. And will continue to fight until the situation is worsened and escalated.
I feel for Ukraine, but maybe you have a better alternative to the situation.
Honestly Europe needs to step up. America will help if they do. But they're not willing due to the risks. Tough situation.

---

Zelensky is a fighter. If he wasn't, there would be no Ukraine.

Now, he is clearly ready for peace, and clearly wants guarantees that this won't happen again. Why would he not ask the US for that? Clearly we are the only entity involved that could guarantee peace. He spent his first meeting making that point. Time will tell whether it altered anyone's perception, or whether it made Trump consider guaranteeing peace in some way, but it was, to me, the only smart thing to do.

In a war that has lasted years, go ahead and spend a day or 2 trying to get the best possible deal for your country. If that fails, take whatever you can get. Just watch, by Monday there will be a deal signed I think.

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Gkelly said:

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Funny how you speak for all Americans. As a former United States Navy officer, it would be an honor to return to service to help defend Ukraine and to promote democracy.

---

They're taking volunteers.

---

It won't take that. And many volunteers already went. Good for them, they took a stance. Now is the time for peace, for negotiating a deal between Ukraine and Russia. You remember, like Trump promised to do?

---

Trump is doing exactly that. By exposing Zelenskyy as the biggest obstacle to peace. Zelenskyy wants to win outright. And will continue to fight until the situation is worsened and escalated.
I feel for Ukraine, but maybe you have a better alternative to the situation.
Honestly Europe needs to step up. America will help if they do. But they're not willing due to the risks. Tough situation.

---

Zelensky is a fighter. If he wasn't, there would be no Ukraine.

Now, he is clearly ready for peace, and clearly wants guarantees that this won't happen again. Why would he not ask the US for that? Clearly we are the only entity involved that could guarantee peace. He spent his first meeting making that point. Time will tell whether it altered anyone's perception, or whether it made Trump consider guaranteeing peace in some way, but it was, to me, the only smart thing to do.

In a war that has lasted years, go ahead and spend a day or 2 trying to get the best possible deal for your country. If that fails, take whatever you can get. Just watch, by Monday there will be a deal signed I think.

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You think America should guarantee with soldiers Ukraine safety, effectively putting them in NATO?

Trump was giving them economic security. Zelensky took bad advice because he's used to politicians rewarding his behavior.

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

Gkelly said:

---

Funny how you speak for all Americans. As a former United States Navy officer, it would be an honor to return to service to help defend Ukraine and to promote democracy.

---

They're taking volunteers.

---

It won't take that. And many volunteers already went. Good for them, they took a stance. Now is the time for peace, for negotiating a deal between Ukraine and Russia. You remember, like Trump promised to do?

---

Trump is doing exactly that. By exposing Zelenskyy as the biggest obstacle to peace. Zelenskyy wants to win outright. And will continue to fight until the situation is worsened and escalated.
I feel for Ukraine, but maybe you have a better alternative to the situation.
Honestly Europe needs to step up. America will help if they do. But they're not willing due to the risks. Tough situation.

---

Zelensky is a fighter. If he wasn't, there would be no Ukraine.

Now, he is clearly ready for peace, and clearly wants guarantees that this won't happen again. Why would he not ask the US for that? Clearly we are the only entity involved that could guarantee peace. He spent his first meeting making that point. Time will tell whether it altered anyone's perception, or whether it made Trump consider guaranteeing peace in some way, but it was, to me, the only smart thing to do.

In a war that has lasted years, go ahead and spend a day or 2 trying to get the best possible deal for your country. If that fails, take whatever you can get. Just watch, by Monday there will be a deal signed I think.

---

You think America should guarantee with soldiers Ukraine safety, effectively putting them in NATO?

Trump was giving them economic security. Zelensky took bad advice because he's used to politicians rewarding his behavior.

---

We already promised them security, it was just so long ago that we now feel it's optional. Any deal with Russia will mean permanently excluding Ukraine from NATO, but yes someone has to do something to make further invasion problematic for Russia. If, after supporting Ukraine for this long, we let Russia roll over them because we don't want to be in WWIII, what will happen when they invade a NATO country? We let it happen because we don't want to be in WWIII?

Peace is achievable, but it will have to be a deal Russia can live with. For all I know, publicly dressing down Zelensky in the Oval office was a premeditated way to save Russia some face. I bet I know exactly what the Russian state media is saying about it.

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Gkelly said:

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Look, I'm not here to minimize or emasculate anyone's opinion. For now, we're all entitled to our own and I'd like to think that when push comes to shove Americans will channel Voltaire's commitment to free speech and to free thought and rally around the mantra, "I may not agree with a word you say, but I'll fight to my death you're right to say it" (as summarized by Evelyn Hall).

I received a grant from the US State Dept to fund part of my education. I studied Russian and minored in Russian and East European Studies. I've been to the USSR and to Russia multiple times. The Ukrainian/Russian relationship is a complicated one. History has taught Russia to build barricades, wall itself off from potential invaders. WWII taught the Russians they need a viable buffer zone to control the approximately 7-9 land invasion routes into Russia. It's been ruled from the jump by autocrats.

Ukraine, meaning "on the border", was never intended to be an independent state. It was an artificial construct of the Soviet Union as one of the 15 republics that comprised the USSR. It's considered the birthplace of Russian Orthodoxy.

All to say, it's complicated, nuanced issue. But at the end of the day, I'm for anyone who chooses democracy over autocracy and my hope of the United States is we promote democratic values and provide smart security guarantees to promote those values.

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Married A Horn said:

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Porteroso said:

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I'm pretty disappointed with Vance. From the transcript, Vance basically stepped in and tried to power play Zelensky. Just dumb, and of course Trump wants to be worshipped, not told that if Russia keeps invading, the US will "feel influenced." Trump responds with "We are going to feel very good and very strong." and it just devolves from there.

You know what though, let me post the transcript. You guys just read it for yourself. I think it's embarrassing. This isn't the time to hold Zelensky to account, it's the time to end the Russian invasion of Ukraine. It's ok if Zelensky says a few words, he's about to hand over 50% of Ukraine's rare earths to the United States.

I don't think this is the full transcript, but sections, from the AP.

Quote:

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Vance: "For four years, the United States of America, we had a president who stood up at press conferences and talked tough about Vladimir Putin, and then Putin invaded Ukraine and destroyed a significant chunk of the country. The path to peace and the path to prosperity is, maybe, engaging in diplomacy. We tried the pathway of Joe Biden, of thumping our chest and pretending that the president of the United States' words mattered more than the president of the United States' actions. What makes America a good country is America engaging in diplomacy. That's what President Trump is doing."

Zelenskyy: "Can I ask you?"

Vance: "Sure. Yeah."

Zelenskyy: "OK. So he (Putin) occupied it, our parts, big parts of Ukraine, parts of east and Crimea. So he occupied it in 2014. So during a lot of years I'm not speaking about just Biden, but those times was (Barack) Obama, then President Obama, then President Trump, then President Biden, now President Trump. And God bless, now, President Trump will stop him. But during 2014, nobody stopped him. He just occupied and took. He killed people. You know what the --"

Trump: "2015?"

Zelenskyy: "2014."

Trump: "Oh, 2014? I was not here."

Vance: "That's exactly right."

Zelenskyy: "Yes, but during 2014 'til 2022, the situation is the same, that people have been dying on the contact line. Nobody stopped him. You know that we had conversations with him, a lot of conversations, my bilateral conversation. And we signed with him, me, like, you, president, in 2019, I signed with him the deal. I signed with him, (French President Emmanuel) Macron and (former German Chancellor Angela) Merkel. We signed ceasefire. Ceasefire. All of them told me that he will never go … But after that, he broke the ceasefire, he killed our people, and he didn't exchange prisoners. We signed the exchange of prisoners. But he didn't do it. What kind of diplomacy, JD, you are speaking about? What do you mean?"

Vance: "I'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that's going to end the destruction of your country. Mr. President, with respect, I think it's disrespectful for you to come into the Oval Office to try to litigate this in front of the American media. Right now, you guys are going around and forcing conscripts to the front lines because you have manpower problems. You should be thanking the president for trying to bring an end to this conflict."

Zelenskyy: "Have you ever been to Ukraine that you say what problems we have?"

Vance: "I have been to "

Zelenskyy: "Come once."

Vance: "I've actually watched and seen the stories, and I know that what happens is you bring people, you bring them on a propaganda tour, Mr. President. Do you disagree that you've had problems, bringing people into your military?"

Zelenskyy: "We have problems "

Vance: "And do you think that is respectful to come to the Oval Office of the United States of America and attack the administration that is trying to prevent the destruction of your country?"

Zelenskyy: "A lot of questions. Let's start from the beginning."

Vance: "Sure."

Zelenskyy: "First of all, during the war, everybody has problems, even you. But you have nice ocean and don't feel now. But you will feel it in the future. God bless "

Trump: "You don't know that. You don't know that. Don't tell us what we're going to feel. We're trying to solve a problem. Don't tell us what we're going to feel."

Zelenskyy: "I'm not telling you. I am answering on these questions."

Trump: "Because you're in no position to dictate that."

Vance: "That's exactly what you're doing."

Trump: "You are in no position to dictate what we're going to feel. We're going to feel very good."

Zelenskyy: "You will feel influenced."

Trump: "We are going to feel very good and very strong."

Zelenskyy: "I am telling you. You will feel influenced."

Trump: "You're, right now, not in a very good position. You've allowed yourself to be in a very bad position "

Zelenskyy: "From the very beginning of the war "

Trump: "You're not in a good position. You don't have the cards right now. With us, you start having cards."

Zelenskyy: "I'm not playing cards. I'm very serious, Mr. President. I'm very serious."

Trump: "You're playing cards. You're gambling with the lives of millions of people. You're gambling with World War III."

Zelenskyy: "What are you speaking about?"

Trump: "You're gambling with World War III. And what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country that's backed you far more than a lot of people said they should have."

Vance: "Have you said thank you once?"

Zelenskyy: "A lot of times. Even today."

Vance: "No, in this entire meeting. You went to Pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in October."

Zelenskyy: "No."

Vance: "Offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America and the president who's trying to save your country."

Zelenskyy: "Please. You think that if you will speak very loudly about the war, you can "

Trump: "He's not speaking loudly. He's not speaking loudly. Your country is in big trouble."

Zelenskyy: "Can I answer "

Trump: "No, no. You've done a lot of talking. Your country is in big trouble."

Zelenskyy: "I know. I know."

Trump: "You're not winning. You're not winning this. You have a damn good chance of coming out OK because of us."

Zelenskyy: "Mr. President, we are staying in our country, staying strong. From the very beginning of the war, we've been alone. And we are thankful. I said thanks."

Trump: "If you didn't have our military equipment, this war would have been over in two weeks."

Zelenskyy: "In three days. I heard it from Putin. In three days."

Trump: "Maybe less. It's going to be a very hard thing to do business like this, I tell you.

Vance: "Just say thank you."

Zelenskyy: "I said a lot of times, thank you, to American people."

Vance: "Accept that there are disagreements, and let's go litigate those disagreements rather than trying to fight it out in the American media when you're wrong. We know that you're wrong."

Trump: "But you see, I think it's good for the American people to see what's going on. I think it's very important. That's why I kept this going so long. You have to be thankful."

Zelenskyy: "I'm thankful."

Trump: "You don't have the cards. You're buried there. People are dying. You're running low on soldiers. It would be a damn good thing, and then you tell us, 'I don't want a ceasefire. I don't want a ceasefire, I want to go, and I want this.' Look, if you can get a ceasefire right now, I tell you, you take it so the bullets stop flying and your men stop getting killed."

Zelenskyy: "Of course we want to stop the war. But I said to you, with guarantees."

Trump: "Are you saying you don't want a ceasefire? I want a ceasefire. Because you'll get a ceasefire faster than an agreement."

Zelenskyy: "Ask our people about a ceasefire, what they think."

Trump: "That wasn't with me. That was with a guy named Biden, who is not a smart person."

Zelenskyy: "This is your president. It was your president."

Trump: "Excuse me. That was with Obama, who gave you sheets, and I gave you Javelins. I gave you the Javelins to take out all those tanks. Obama gave you sheets. In fact, the statement is Obama gave sheets, and Trump gave Javelins. You've got to be more thankful because let me tell you, you don't have the cards. With us, you have the cards, but without us, you don't have any cards."

---

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We're not surprised you're disappointed at Vance. Post when you actually say something that will surprise us.

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Zelensky just had to keep his mouth shut after Vance said Trump was a strong actions president. But no, Zelensky just had to try and pander to the media. Then instead of just shutting up and politely relent and move behind closed doors, he had to argue.

I guarantee he and his advisors saw Macron's visit and they thought he should stand up to Trump and be tough on TV. Clearly he got bad advice.

Plus this guy came and effectively campaigned against Trump. Seems like he'd have been a better guest.

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Mitch Blood Green said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Married A Horn said:

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Porteroso said:

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I'm pretty disappointed with Vance. From the transcript, Vance basically stepped in and tried to power play Zelensky. Just dumb, and of course Trump wants to be worshipped, not told that if Russia keeps invading, the US will "feel influenced." Trump responds with "We are going to feel very good and very strong." and it just devolves from there.

You know what though, let me post the transcript. You guys just read it for yourself. I think it's embarrassing. This isn't the time to hold Zelensky to account, it's the time to end the Russian invasion of Ukraine. It's ok if Zelensky says a few words, he's about to hand over 50% of Ukraine's rare earths to the United States.

I don't think this is the full transcript, but sections, from the AP.

Quote:

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Vance: "For four years, the United States of America, we had a president who stood up at press conferences and talked tough about Vladimir Putin, and then Putin invaded Ukraine and destroyed a significant chunk of the country. The path to peace and the path to prosperity is, maybe, engaging in diplomacy. We tried the pathway of Joe Biden, of thumping our chest and pretending that the president of the United States' words mattered more than the president of the United States' actions. What makes America a good country is America engaging in diplomacy. That's what President Trump is doing."

Zelenskyy: "Can I ask you?"

Vance: "Sure. Yeah."

Zelenskyy: "OK. So he (Putin) occupied it, our parts, big parts of Ukraine, parts of east and Crimea. So he occupied it in 2014. So during a lot of years I'm not speaking about just Biden, but those times was (Barack) Obama, then President Obama, then President Trump, then President Biden, now President Trump. And God bless, now, President Trump will stop him. But during 2014, nobody stopped him. He just occupied and took. He killed people. You know what the --"

Trump: "2015?"

Zelenskyy: "2014."

Trump: "Oh, 2014? I was not here."

Vance: "That's exactly right."

Zelenskyy: "Yes, but during 2014 'til 2022, the situation is the same, that people have been dying on the contact line. Nobody stopped him. You know that we had conversations with him, a lot of conversations, my bilateral conversation. And we signed with him, me, like, you, president, in 2019, I signed with him the deal. I signed with him, (French President Emmanuel) Macron and (former German Chancellor Angela) Merkel. We signed ceasefire. Ceasefire. All of them told me that he will never go … But after that, he broke the ceasefire, he killed our people, and he didn't exchange prisoners. We signed the exchange of prisoners. But he didn't do it. What kind of diplomacy, JD, you are speaking about? What do you mean?"

Vance: "I'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that's going to end the destruction of your country. Mr. President, with respect, I think it's disrespectful for you to come into the Oval Office to try to litigate this in front of the American media. Right now, you guys are going around and forcing conscripts to the front lines because you have manpower problems. You should be thanking the president for trying to bring an end to this conflict."

Zelenskyy: "Have you ever been to Ukraine that you say what problems we have?"

Vance: "I have been to "

Zelenskyy: "Come once."

Vance: "I've actually watched and seen the stories, and I know that what happens is you bring people, you bring them on a propaganda tour, Mr. President. Do you disagree that you've had problems, bringing people into your military?"

Zelenskyy: "We have problems "

Vance: "And do you think that is respectful to come to the Oval Office of the United States of America and attack the administration that is trying to prevent the destruction of your country?"

Zelenskyy: "A lot of questions. Let's start from the beginning."

Vance: "Sure."

Zelenskyy: "First of all, during the war, everybody has problems, even you. But you have nice ocean and don't feel now. But you will feel it in the future. God bless "

Trump: "You don't know that. You don't know that. Don't tell us what we're going to feel. We're trying to solve a problem. Don't tell us what we're going to feel."

Zelenskyy: "I'm not telling you. I am answering on these questions."

Trump: "Because you're in no position to dictate that."

Vance: "That's exactly what you're doing."

Trump: "You are in no position to dictate what we're going to feel. We're going to feel very good."

Zelenskyy: "You will feel influenced."

Trump: "We are going to feel very good and very strong."

Zelenskyy: "I am telling you. You will feel influenced."

Trump: "You're, right now, not in a very good position. You've allowed yourself to be in a very bad position "

Zelenskyy: "From the very beginning of the war "

Trump: "You're not in a good position. You don't have the cards right now. With us, you start having cards."

Zelenskyy: "I'm not playing cards. I'm very serious, Mr. President. I'm very serious."

Trump: "You're playing cards. You're gambling with the lives of millions of people. You're gambling with World War III."

Zelenskyy: "What are you speaking about?"

Trump: "You're gambling with World War III. And what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country that's backed you far more than a lot of people said they should have."

Vance: "Have you said thank you once?"

Zelenskyy: "A lot of times. Even today."

Vance: "No, in this entire meeting. You went to Pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in October."

Zelenskyy: "No."

Vance: "Offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America and the president who's trying to save your country."

Zelenskyy: "Please. You think that if you will speak very loudly about the war, you can "

Trump: "He's not speaking loudly. He's not speaking loudly. Your country is in big trouble."

Zelenskyy: "Can I answer "

Trump: "No, no. You've done a lot of talking. Your country is in big trouble."

Zelenskyy: "I know. I know."

Trump: "You're not winning. You're not winning this. You have a damn good chance of coming out OK because of us."

Zelenskyy: "Mr. President, we are staying in our country, staying strong. From the very beginning of the war, we've been alone. And we are thankful. I said thanks."

Trump: "If you didn't have our military equipment, this war would have been over in two weeks."

Zelenskyy: "In three days. I heard it from Putin. In three days."

Trump: "Maybe less. It's going to be a very hard thing to do business like this, I tell you.

Vance: "Just say thank you."

Zelenskyy: "I said a lot of times, thank you, to American people."

Vance: "Accept that there are disagreements, and let's go litigate those disagreements rather than trying to fight it out in the American media when you're wrong. We know that you're wrong."

Trump: "But you see, I think it's good for the American people to see what's going on. I think it's very important. That's why I kept this going so long. You have to be thankful."

Zelenskyy: "I'm thankful."

Trump: "You don't have the cards. You're buried there. People are dying. You're running low on soldiers. It would be a damn good thing, and then you tell us, 'I don't want a ceasefire. I don't want a ceasefire, I want to go, and I want this.' Look, if you can get a ceasefire right now, I tell you, you take it so the bullets stop flying and your men stop getting killed."

Zelenskyy: "Of course we want to stop the war. But I said to you, with guarantees."

Trump: "Are you saying you don't want a ceasefire? I want a ceasefire. Because you'll get a ceasefire faster than an agreement."

Zelenskyy: "Ask our people about a ceasefire, what they think."

Trump: "That wasn't with me. That was with a guy named Biden, who is not a smart person."

Zelenskyy: "This is your president. It was your president."

Trump: "Excuse me. That was with Obama, who gave you sheets, and I gave you Javelins. I gave you the Javelins to take out all those tanks. Obama gave you sheets. In fact, the statement is Obama gave sheets, and Trump gave Javelins. You've got to be more thankful because let me tell you, you don't have the cards. With us, you have the cards, but without us, you don't have any cards."

---

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We're not surprised you're disappointed at Vance. Post when you actually say something that will surprise us.

---

Zelensky just had to keep his mouth shut after Vance said Trump was a strong actions president. But no, Zelensky just had to try and pander to the media. Then instead of just shutting up and politely relent and move behind closed doors, he had to argue.

I guarantee he and his advisors saw Macron's visit and they thought he should stand up to Trump and be tough on TV. Clearly he got bad advice.

Plus this guy came and effectively campaigned against Trump. Seems like he'd have been a better guest.

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It's not his job to be Trump's *****. He represents Ukraine, an invaded country. With Trump it doesn't matter if you sing his praises or push back.

What we are seeing is too many elected officials bending the knee instead of representing their people. Mitch McConnell trying to look tough and principled?

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Gkelly said:

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Funny how you speak for all Americans. As a former United States Navy officer, it would be an honor to return to service to help defend Ukraine and to promote democracy.

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They're taking volunteers.

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It won't take that. And many volunteers already went. Good for them, they took a stance. Now is the time for peace, for negotiating a deal between Ukraine and Russia. You remember, like Trump promised to do?

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Trump is doing exactly that. By exposing Zelenskyy as the biggest obstacle to peace. Zelenskyy wants to win outright. And will continue to fight until the situation is worsened and escalated.
I feel for Ukraine, but maybe you have a better alternative to the situation.
Honestly Europe needs to step up. America will help if they do. But they're not willing due to the risks. Tough situation.

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Zelensky is a fighter. If he wasn't, there would be no Ukraine.

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Redbrickbear said:

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Gkelly said:

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Funny how you speak for all Americans. As a former United States Navy officer, it would be an honor to return to service to help defend Ukraine and to promote democracy.

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They're taking volunteers.

---

It won't take that. And many volunteers already went. Good for them, they took a stance. Now is the time for peace, for negotiating a deal between Ukraine and Russia. You remember, like Trump promised to do?

---

Trump is doing exactly that. By exposing Zelenskyy as the biggest obstacle to peace. Zelenskyy wants to win outright. And will continue to fight until the situation is worsened and escalated.
I feel for Ukraine, but maybe you have a better alternative to the situation.
Honestly Europe needs to step up. America will help if they do. But they're not willing due to the risks. Tough situation.

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Zelensky is a fighter. If he wasn't, there would be no Ukraine.

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His soldiers are fighters....he hid in a bunker in Kyiv (possibly fled to Poland to a NATO base in the first few hours)

Lets not engage in to much hero worship and mythology of the guy

He is a comedian turn politician....and we know both professions are full of liars and narcissists

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Gkelly said:

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Look, I'm not here to minimize or emasculate anyone's opinion. For now, we're all entitled to our own and I'd like to think that when push comes to shove Americans will channel Voltaire's commitment to free speech and to free thought and rally around the mantra, "I may not agree with a word you say, but I'll fight to my death you're right to say it" (as summarized by Evelyn Hall).

I received a grant from the US State Dept to fund part of my education. I studied Russian and minored in Russian and East European Studies. I've been to the USSR and to Russia multiple times. The Ukrainian/Russian relationship is a complicated one. History has taught Russia to build barricades, wall itself off from potential invaders. WWII taught the Russians they need a viable buffer zone to control the approximately 7-9 land invasion routes into Russia. It's been ruled from the jump by autocrats.

Ukraine, meaning "on the border", was never intended to be an independent state. It was an artificial construct of the Soviet Union as one of the 15 republics that comprised the USSR. It's considered the birthplace of Russian Orthodoxy.

All to say, it's complicated, nuanced issue. But at the end of the day, I'm for anyone who chooses democracy over autocracy and my hope of the United States is we promote democratic values and provide smart security guarantees to promote those values.

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Zelenskyy suspended elections, suspended habeus corpus, outlawed certain religions, Ukrainian men are forbidden to leave the country and press gangs forcibly enlist men on the streets.

How is this "democracy" and "freedom"?

— Cynical Publius (@CynicalPublius) March 2, 2025

Married A Horn said:

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muddybrazos said:

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Gkelly said:

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Look, I'm not here to minimize or emasculate anyone's opinion. For now, we're all entitled to our own and I'd like to think that when push comes to shove Americans will channel Voltaire's commitment to free speech and to free thought and rally around the mantra, "I may not agree with a word you say, but I'll fight to my death you're right to say it" (as summarized by Evelyn Hall).

I received a grant from the US State Dept to fund part of my education. I studied Russian and minored in Russian and East European Studies. I've been to the USSR and to Russia multiple times. The Ukrainian/Russian relationship is a complicated one. History has taught Russia to build barricades, wall itself off from potential invaders. WWII taught the Russians they need a viable buffer zone to control the approximately 7-9 land invasion routes into Russia. It's been ruled from the jump by autocrats.

Ukraine, meaning "on the border", was never intended to be an independent state. It was an artificial construct of the Soviet Union as one of the 15 republics that comprised the USSR. It's considered the birthplace of Russian Orthodoxy.

All to say, it's complicated, nuanced issue. But at the end of the day, I'm for anyone who chooses democracy over autocracy and my hope of the United States is we promote democratic values and provide smart security guarantees to promote those values.

---

Zelenskyy suspended elections, suspended habeus corpus, outlawed certain religions, Ukrainian men are forbidden to leave the country and press gangs forcibly enlist men on the streets.

How is this "democracy" and "freedom"?

— Cynical Publius (@CynicalPublius) March 2, 2025

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There is no good guy in this fight. A bigger bad guy bullying on a smaller one.

Translation: stop sending my $ over there (especially when half comes back to democrats' bank accounts.)

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muddybrazos said:

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Married A Horn said:

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muddybrazos said:

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Gkelly said:

---

Look, I'm not here to minimize or emasculate anyone's opinion. For now, we're all entitled to our own and I'd like to think that when push comes to shove Americans will channel Voltaire's commitment to free speech and to free thought and rally around the mantra, "I may not agree with a word you say, but I'll fight to my death you're right to say it" (as summarized by Evelyn Hall).

I received a grant from the US State Dept to fund part of my education. I studied Russian and minored in Russian and East European Studies. I've been to the USSR and to Russia multiple times. The Ukrainian/Russian relationship is a complicated one. History has taught Russia to build barricades, wall itself off from potential invaders. WWII taught the Russians they need a viable buffer zone to control the approximately 7-9 land invasion routes into Russia. It's been ruled from the jump by autocrats.

Ukraine, meaning "on the border", was never intended to be an independent state. It was an artificial construct of the Soviet Union as one of the 15 republics that comprised the USSR. It's considered the birthplace of Russian Orthodoxy.

All to say, it's complicated, nuanced issue. But at the end of the day, I'm for anyone who chooses democracy over autocracy and my hope of the United States is we promote democratic values and provide smart security guarantees to promote those values.

---

Zelenskyy suspended elections, suspended habeus corpus, outlawed certain religions, Ukrainian men are forbidden to leave the country and press gangs forcibly enlist men on the streets.

How is this "democracy" and "freedom"?

— Cynical Publius (@CynicalPublius) March 2, 2025

---

There is no good guy in this fight. A bigger bad guy bullying on a smaller one.

Translation: stop sending my $ over there (especially when half comes back to democrats' bank accounts.)

---

I'm not a Ukraine/Russia expert but I dont really see it exactly that way. Ukraine had a color revolution done to them by the US and the west to overthrow their Russia friendly govt and replace it with a Euro friendly puppet govt. If that didnt happen then all of this war and civil war in Donbas wouldnt have happened. The regime war people have had a hard on for detroying Russa for a long time. If Hillary had won in 16 I have no doubt we would be in a hot war with Russia.

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Tempus Edax Rerum said:

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KaiBear said:

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Porteroso said:

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At the core of it, it is in our best interest to give Ukraine guarantees.

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Absolute ****ing bull*****

There is not ONE member of this board who is willing to enlist and fight for Ukraine.

The American people are not even remotely willing to be drafted and fight for Ukraine.

It has NEVER been in the strategic intersts of the US to guarantee Ukranian security.



Take a step back and just imagine the reaction if Trump or any other US prisedent went to war over Ukraine and as a result re esteblished the draft.

Good grief it would be a nightmare.

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We don't have to send troops, doofus.

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Gkelly said:

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Funny how you speak for all Americans. As a former United States Navy officer, it would be an honor to return to service to help defend Ukraine and to promote democracy.

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They're taking volunteers.

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It won't take that. And many volunteers already went. Good for them, they took a stance. Now is the time for peace, for negotiating a deal between Ukraine and Russia. You remember, like Trump promised to do?

---

Gkelly said:

---

Funny how you speak for all Americans. As a former United States Navy officer, it would be an honor to return to service to help defend Ukraine and to promote democracy.

---

Gkelly said:

---

Look, I'm not here to minimize or emasculate anyone's opinion. For now, we're all entitled to our own and I'd like to think that when push comes to shove Americans will channel Voltaire's commitment to free speech and to free thought and rally around the mantra, "I may not agree with a word you say, but I'll fight to my death you're right to say it" (as summarized by Evelyn Hall).

I received a grant from the US State Dept to fund part of my education. I studied Russian and minored in Russian and East European Studies. I've been to the USSR and to Russia multiple times. The Ukrainian/Russian relationship is a complicated one. History has taught Russia to build barricades, wall itself off from potential invaders. WWII taught the Russians they need a viable buffer zone to control the approximately 7-9 land invasion routes into Russia. It's been ruled from the jump by autocrats.

Ukraine, meaning "on the border", was never intended to be an independent state. It was an artificial construct of the Soviet Union as one of the 15 republics that comprised the USSR. It's considered the birthplace of Russian Orthodoxy.

All to say, it's complicated, nuanced issue. But at the end of the day, I'm for anyone who chooses democracy over autocracy and my hope of the United States is we promote democratic values and provide smart security guarantees to promote those values.

---

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

---

Gkelly said:

---

Funny how you speak for all Americans. As a former United States Navy officer, it would be an honor to return to service to help defend Ukraine and to promote democracy.

---

They're taking volunteers.

---

It won't take that. And many volunteers already went. Good for them, they took a stance. Now is the time for peace, for negotiating a deal between Ukraine and Russia. You remember, like Trump promised to do?

---

Trump is doing exactly that. By exposing Zelenskyy as the biggest obstacle to peace. Zelenskyy wants to win outright. And will continue to fight until the situation is worsened and escalated.
I feel for Ukraine, but maybe you have a better alternative to the situation.
Honestly Europe needs to step up. America will help if they do. But they're not willing due to the risks. Tough situation.

---

Zelensky is a fighter. If he wasn't, there would be no Ukraine.

Now, he is clearly ready for peace, and clearly wants guarantees that this won't happen again. Why would he not ask the US for that? Clearly we are the only entity involved that could guarantee peace. He spent his first meeting making that point. Time will tell whether it altered anyone's perception, or whether it made Trump consider guaranteeing peace in some way, but it was, to me, the only smart thing to do.

In a war that has lasted years, go ahead and spend a day or 2 trying to get the best possible deal for your country. If that fails, take whatever you can get. Just watch, by Monday there will be a deal signed I think.

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You think America should guarantee with soldiers Ukraine safety, effectively putting them in NATO?

Trump was giving them economic security. Zelensky took bad advice because he's used to politicians rewarding his behavior.

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We already promised them security, it was just so long ago that we now feel it's optional. Any deal with Russia will mean permanently excluding Ukraine from NATO, but yes someone has to do something to make further invasion problematic for Russia. If, after supporting Ukraine for this long, we let Russia roll over them because we don't want to be in WWIII, what will happen when they invade a NATO country? We let it happen because we don't want to be in WWIII?

Peace is achievable, but it will have to be a deal Russia can live with. For all I know, publicly dressing down Zelensky in the Oval office was a premeditated way to save Russia some face. I bet I know exactly what the Russian state media is saying about it.

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The mineral agreement was one step of many that need to happen for the US. Pretty clear Trump agrees that lasting peace is the goal, and assurances are part of the final outcome. But if we give "NATO like" security assurance to Ukraine, it's effectively just another NATO. Good luck with that. Europe will do token actions but really do diddly and then rely on the US fully. US bears the brunt of the risk. Trump is smart enough to see Europe for the sham it is.

Economic investment was a really smart idea, and a great plan to tie the countries together. Again, Trump is smart, smarter than all of you Dems put together.

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Porteroso said:

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I'm pretty disappointed with Vance. From the transcript, Vance basically stepped in and tried to power play Zelensky. Just dumb, and of course Trump wants to be worshipped, not told that if Russia keeps invading, the US will "feel influenced." Trump responds with "We are going to feel very good and very strong." and it just devolves from there.

You know what though, let me post the transcript. You guys just read it for yourself. I think it's embarrassing. This isn't the time to hold Zelensky to account, it's the time to end the Russian invasion of Ukraine. It's ok if Zelensky says a few words, he's about to hand over 50% of Ukraine's rare earths to the United States.

I don't think this is the full transcript, but sections, from the AP.

Quote:

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Vance: "For four years, the United States of America, we had a president who stood up at press conferences and talked tough about Vladimir Putin, and then Putin invaded Ukraine and destroyed a significant chunk of the country. The path to peace and the path to prosperity is, maybe, engaging in diplomacy. We tried the pathway of Joe Biden, of thumping our chest and pretending that the president of the United States' words mattered more than the president of the United States' actions. What makes America a good country is America engaging in diplomacy. That's what President Trump is doing."

Zelenskyy: "Can I ask you?"

Vance: "Sure. Yeah."

Zelenskyy: "OK. So he (Putin) occupied it, our parts, big parts of Ukraine, parts of east and Crimea. So he occupied it in 2014. So during a lot of years I'm not speaking about just Biden, but those times was (Barack) Obama, then President Obama, then President Trump, then President Biden, now President Trump. And God bless, now, President Trump will stop him. But during 2014, nobody stopped him. He just occupied and took. He killed people. You know what the --"

Trump: "2015?"

Zelenskyy: "2014."

Trump: "Oh, 2014? I was not here."

Vance: "That's exactly right."

Zelenskyy: "Yes, but during 2014 'til 2022, the situation is the same, that people have been dying on the contact line. Nobody stopped him. You know that we had conversations with him, a lot of conversations, my bilateral conversation. And we signed with him, me, like, you, president, in 2019, I signed with him the deal. I signed with him, (French President Emmanuel) Macron and (former German Chancellor Angela) Merkel. We signed ceasefire. Ceasefire. All of them told me that he will never go … But after that, he broke the ceasefire, he killed our people, and he didn't exchange prisoners. We signed the exchange of prisoners. But he didn't do it. What kind of diplomacy, JD, you are speaking about? What do you mean?"

Vance: "I'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that's going to end the destruction of your country. Mr. President, with respect, I think it's disrespectful for you to come into the Oval Office to try to litigate this in front of the American media. Right now, you guys are going around and forcing conscripts to the front lines because you have manpower problems. You should be thanking the president for trying to bring an end to this conflict."

Zelenskyy: "Have you ever been to Ukraine that you say what problems we have?"

Vance: "I have been to "

Zelenskyy: "Come once."

Vance: "I've actually watched and seen the stories, and I know that what happens is you bring people, you bring them on a propaganda tour, Mr. President. Do you disagree that you've had problems, bringing people into your military?"

Zelenskyy: "We have problems "

Vance: "And do you think that is respectful to come to the Oval Office of the United States of America and attack the administration that is trying to prevent the destruction of your country?"

Zelenskyy: "A lot of questions. Let's start from the beginning."

Vance: "Sure."

Zelenskyy: "First of all, during the war, everybody has problems, even you. But you have nice ocean and don't feel now. But you will feel it in the future. God bless "

Trump: "You don't know that. You don't know that. Don't tell us what we're going to feel. We're trying to solve a problem. Don't tell us what we're going to feel."

Zelenskyy: "I'm not telling you. I am answering on these questions."

Trump: "Because you're in no position to dictate that."

Vance: "That's exactly what you're doing."

Trump: "You are in no position to dictate what we're going to feel. We're going to feel very good."

Zelenskyy: "You will feel influenced."

Trump: "We are going to feel very good and very strong."

Zelenskyy: "I am telling you. You will feel influenced."

Trump: "You're, right now, not in a very good position. You've allowed yourself to be in a very bad position "

Zelenskyy: "From the very beginning of the war "

Trump: "You're not in a good position. You don't have the cards right now. With us, you start having cards."

Zelenskyy: "I'm not playing cards. I'm very serious, Mr. President. I'm very serious."

Trump: "You're playing cards. You're gambling with the lives of millions of people. You're gambling with World War III."

Zelenskyy: "What are you speaking about?"

Trump: "You're gambling with World War III. And what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country that's backed you far more than a lot of people said they should have."

Vance: "Have you said thank you once?"

Zelenskyy: "A lot of times. Even today."

Vance: "No, in this entire meeting. You went to Pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in October."

Zelenskyy: "No."

Vance: "Offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America and the president who's trying to save your country."

Zelenskyy: "Please. You think that if you will speak very loudly about the war, you can "

Trump: "He's not speaking loudly. He's not speaking loudly. Your country is in big trouble."

Zelenskyy: "Can I answer "

Trump: "No, no. You've done a lot of talking. Your country is in big trouble."

Zelenskyy: "I know. I know."

Trump: "You're not winning. You're not winning this. You have a damn good chance of coming out OK because of us."

Zelenskyy: "Mr. President, we are staying in our country, staying strong. From the very beginning of the war, we've been alone. And we are thankful. I said thanks."

Trump: "If you didn't have our military equipment, this war would have been over in two weeks."

Zelenskyy: "In three days. I heard it from Putin. In three days."

Trump: "Maybe less. It's going to be a very hard thing to do business like this, I tell you.

Vance: "Just say thank you."

Zelenskyy: "I said a lot of times, thank you, to American people."

Vance: "Accept that there are disagreements, and let's go litigate those disagreements rather than trying to fight it out in the American media when you're wrong. We know that you're wrong."

Trump: "But you see, I think it's good for the American people to see what's going on. I think it's very important. That's why I kept this going so long. You have to be thankful."

Zelenskyy: "I'm thankful."

Trump: "You don't have the cards. You're buried there. People are dying. You're running low on soldiers. It would be a damn good thing, and then you tell us, 'I don't want a ceasefire. I don't want a ceasefire, I want to go, and I want this.' Look, if you can get a ceasefire right now, I tell you, you take it so the bullets stop flying and your men stop getting killed."

Zelenskyy: "Of course we want to stop the war. But I said to you, with guarantees."

Trump: "Are you saying you don't want a ceasefire? I want a ceasefire. Because you'll get a ceasefire faster than an agreement."

Zelenskyy: "Ask our people about a ceasefire, what they think."

Trump: "That wasn't with me. That was with a guy named Biden, who is not a smart person."

Zelenskyy: "This is your president. It was your president."

Trump: "Excuse me. That was with Obama, who gave you sheets, and I gave you Javelins. I gave you the Javelins to take out all those tanks. Obama gave you sheets. In fact, the statement is Obama gave sheets, and Trump gave Javelins. You've got to be more thankful because let me tell you, you don't have the cards. With us, you have the cards, but without us, you don't have any cards."

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Porteroso said:

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At the core of it, it is in our best interest to give Ukraine guarantees. We, the UK, and Russia already convinced Ukraine to not pursue nuclear weapons, in exchange for the 3 countries agreeing to defend Ukraine from invasion... And we did not. Not during the invasion of Crimea, and not during the main invasion 2 years ago.

And then after Crimea, Putin signs a document that he will not further invade, but guess what?

So Trump "persuading" Putin to stop the invasion is simply not good enough. Nobody thinks it is. I don't really have any amount of respect for trying to take Ukraine's natural resources in exchange for what is effectively a temporary cease fire. The United States should be better than that.

If we want the rare earths, we must give guarantees. Maybe it's as simple as an Army base near the rare earths, and having France/Germany have bases near the Russian border as well.

But we cannot let the peace talks fall through because J.D. Vance wants to make Zelensky suck him off. That's the last straw for me. To do that to a man watching his country being burned and destroyed. Goodness.

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KaiBear said:

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Porteroso said:

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At the core of it, it is in our best interest to give Ukraine guarantees.

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The American people are not even remotely willing to be drafted and fight for Ukraine..

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J.R. said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Porteroso said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Gkelly said:

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Funny how you speak for all Americans. As a former United States Navy officer, it would be an honor to return to service to help defend Ukraine and to promote democracy.

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They're taking volunteers.

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It won't take that. And many volunteers already went. Good for them, they took a stance. Now is the time for peace, for negotiating a deal between Ukraine and Russia. You remember, like Trump promised to do?

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Trump is doing exactly that. By exposing Zelenskyy as the biggest obstacle to peace. Zelenskyy wants to win outright. And will continue to fight until the situation is worsened and escalated.
I feel for Ukraine, but maybe you have a better alternative to the situation.
Honestly Europe needs to step up. America will help if they do. But they're not willing due to the risks. Tough situation.

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Zelensky is a fighter. If he wasn't, there would be no Ukraine.

Now, he is clearly ready for peace, and clearly wants guarantees that this won't happen again. Why would he not ask the US for that? Clearly we are the only entity involved that could guarantee peace. He spent his first meeting making that point. Time will tell whether it altered anyone's perception, or whether it made Trump consider guaranteeing peace in some way, but it was, to me, the only smart thing to do.

In a war that has lasted years, go ahead and spend a day or 2 trying to get the best possible deal for your country. If that fails, take whatever you can get. Just watch, by Monday there will be a deal signed I think.

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You think America should guarantee with soldiers Ukraine safety, effectively putting them in NATO?

Trump was giving them economic security. Zelensky took bad advice because he's used to politicians rewarding his behavior.

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We already promised them security, it was just so long ago that we now feel it's optional. Any deal with Russia will mean permanently excluding Ukraine from NATO, but yes someone has to do something to make further invasion problematic for Russia. If, after supporting Ukraine for this long, we let Russia roll over them because we don't want to be in WWIII, what will happen when they invade a NATO country? We let it happen because we don't want to be in WWIII?

Peace is achievable, but it will have to be a deal Russia can live with. For all I know, publicly dressing down Zelensky in the Oval office was a premeditated way to save Russia some face. I bet I know exactly what the Russian state media is saying about it.

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The mineral agreement was one step of many that need to happen for the US. Pretty clear Trump agrees that lasting peace is the goal, and assurances are part of the final outcome. But if we give "NATO like" security assurance to Ukraine, it's effectively just another NATO. Good luck with that. Europe will do token actions but really do diddly and then rely on the US fully. US bears the brunt of the risk. Trump is smart enough to see Europe for the sham it is.

Economic investment was a really smart idea, and a great plan to tie the countries together. Again, Trump is smart, smarter than all of you Dems put together.

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hey dumbass, you do realize said "rare earths" as Trumpy calls them which is incorrect are located in the land that Russia invaded and now controls. So, smart guy, how's that gonna work?

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