Assassin said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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J.R. said:

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so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

At least Trump is trying all the other income sources than Taxing us to death. Tariffs are simply one way. I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either. Biden and company got us into this mess without any look toward what the country needed

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

At least Trump is trying all the other income sources than Taxing us to death. Tariffs are simply one way. I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either. Biden and company got us into this mess without any look toward what the country needed

---

agreed.

Tariffs are necessary to level the field in trade. EVERY ONE of our trade partners have engaged in unfair trade practices while we have been a de facto open market. That is unsustainable.

At. Some. Point. trade must balance.
It will not happen without tariffs to offset what trade partners do to promote their own exports.

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

At least Trump is trying all the other income sources than Taxing us to death. Tariffs are simply one way. I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either. Biden and company got us into this mess without any look toward what the country needed

---

At. Some. Point. trade must balance.

---

Actually if you did just a tiny bit of research, you would learn this premise is blatantly false.

1. We cannot produce everything we consume.

2. We have the world's third largest population. (Approx. 340 million people.) It stands to reason that we will buy more from 192 countries than they buy from us.

3. Although we are third in population, we are less than 4 1/2 percent of the world's population. Our former trading partners will make new alliances and trade deals and benefit from free trade policy. The American consumer will not.

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

At least Trump is trying all the other income sources than Taxing us to death. Tariffs are simply one way. I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either. Biden and company got us into this mess without any look toward what the country needed

---

At. Some. Point. trade must balance.

---

Actually if you did just a tiny bit of research, you would learn this premise is blatantly false.

1. We cannot produce everything we consume.

2. We have the world's third largest population. (Approx. 340 million people.) It stands to reason that we will buy more from 192 countries than they buy from us.

3. Although we are third in population, we are less than 4 1/2 percent of the world's population. Our former trading partners will make new alliances and trade deals and benefit from free trade policy. The American consumer will not.

---

And if Jim Ward had done the slightest bit of research before running for County Judge he would have concluded the voters would soundly reject him and send him into seclusion and embarrassment. RD 2 telling anyone they need to do research is like a wart hog telling another of that species to quit being ugly!

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

At least Trump is trying all the other income sources than Taxing us to death. Tariffs are simply one way. I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either. Biden and company got us into this mess without any look toward what the country needed

---

That is a good point. When put like that, it puts it in a different perspective. Can't complain about that.

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

At least Trump is trying all the other income sources than Taxing us to death. Tariffs are simply one way. I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either. Biden and company got us into this mess without any look toward what the country needed

---

agreed.

Tariffs are necessary to level the field in trade. EVERY ONE of our trade partners have engaged in unfair trade practices while we have been a de facto open market. That is unsustainable.

At. Some. Point. trade must balance.
It will not happen without tariffs to offset what trade partners do to promote their own exports.

---

Trade must balance??? When has that ever happened in world history for a Superpower? Seriously? Rome have balanced trade? Britain had balanced trade? I cannot think of one. Either you manufacture, you conquer, or you become a finance center. Now, add data to it. But, you could say that data is manufacturing, you are creating.

Seriously, please show us ANY Nation of the US size that maintained a trade balance?

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either.

---

At your age, I figured you would have learned by now that every single thing the government touches turns to
s h ! t. It is not ethical for privately owned and public companies to have to compete with government subsidized or government owned companies. And be regulated by government. That is much closer to Socialism than I would like for us to be.

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either.

---

At your age, I figured you would have learned by now that every single thing the government touches turns to
s h ! t. It is not ethical for privately owned and public companies to have to compete with government subsidized or government owned companies. And be regulated by government. That is much closer to Socialism than I would like for us to be.

---

Serous question. I agree with your point in principle, but most Asian nations, including China and Japan, have heavy government influence backing certain companies and not others (go look up MITI, for crying out loud). How should the United States compete with those nations in trade?

Oldbear83 said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either.

---

At your age, I figured you would have learned by now that every single thing the government touches turns to
s h ! t. It is not ethical for privately owned and public companies to have to compete with government subsidized or government owned companies. And be regulated by government. That is much closer to Socialism than I would like for us to be.

---

Serous question. I agree with your point in principle, but most Asian nations, including China and Japan, have heavy government influence backing certain companies and not others (go look up MITI, for crying out loud). How should the United States compete with those nations in trade?

---

How much do you count Government contracts, subsidies, and bail outs as part of Government influence? The US is right there, or we were. You think the US is going to let Boeing fail? We may now be at a bigger disadvantage if you are suggesting going to a true capitalistic form of shark tank. You think tariffs are going to remove Government influence? The US has to play those games too, or we will just lose.

FLBear5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either.

---

At your age, I figured you would have learned by now that every single thing the government touches turns to
s h ! t. It is not ethical for privately owned and public companies to have to compete with government subsidized or government owned companies. And be regulated by government. That is much closer to Socialism than I would like for us to be.

---

Serous question. I agree with your point in principle, but most Asian nations, including China and Japan, have heavy government influence backing certain companies and not others (go look up MITI, for crying out loud). How should the United States compete with those nations in trade?

---

How much do you count Government contracts, subsidies, and bail outs as part of Government influence? The US is right there, or we were. We may now be at a bigger disadvantage if you are suggesting going to a true capitalistic form of shark tank. You think tariffs are going to remove Government influence? The US has to play those games too, or we will just lose.

---

That's kind of my point. If we don't play, we lose, even if we get to claim that we're supporting "true" capitalism and "genuine" free trade.

Oldbear83 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either.

---

At your age, I figured you would have learned by now that every single thing the government touches turns to
s h ! t. It is not ethical for privately owned and public companies to have to compete with government subsidized or government owned companies. And be regulated by government. That is much closer to Socialism than I would like for us to be.

---

Serous question. I agree with your point in principle, but most Asian nations, including China and Japan, have heavy government influence backing certain companies and not others (go look up MITI, for crying out loud). How should the United States compete with those nations in trade?

---

How much do you count Government contracts, subsidies, and bail outs as part of Government influence? The US is right there, or we were. We may now be at a bigger disadvantage if you are suggesting going to a true capitalistic form of shark tank. You think tariffs are going to remove Government influence? The US has to play those games too, or we will just lose.

---

That's kind of my point. If we don't play, we lose, even if we get to claim that we're supporting "true" capitalism and "genuine" free trade.

---

Wow, we are on the same side. Sorry, threw me...

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either.

---

At your age, I figured you would have learned by now that every single thing the government touches turns to
s h ! t. It is not ethical for privately owned and public companies to have to compete with government subsidized or government owned companies. And be regulated by government. That is much closer to Socialism than I would like for us to be.

---

We are competing in a Socialist world. Who are we competing against or even working with that is true Capitalist? Even Hong Kong, Friedman's model for the perfect example of Capitalism at work in Capitalism and Freedom, is gone.

To make it more difficult, we are now relying on a global supply chain with mostly Government influenced Nations. The economy you guys expect will do nothing but put us at a bigger disadvantage. You think the next level of tech or for that matter ANY level of tech paradigm shift happened outside of Government? That is the only answer, increasing productivity and it will not be the hard goods of the 50's and 60's.

So, you guys say you hate the Globalist, we are in a Globalist world. Either we lead it and live in it or the walls keep getting closer.

Oldbear83 said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either.

---

At your age, I figured you would have learned by now that every single thing the government touches turns to
s h ! t. It is not ethical for privately owned and public companies to have to compete with government subsidized or government owned companies. And be regulated by government. That is much closer to Socialism than I would like for us to be.

---

Serous question. I agree with your point in principle, but most Asian nations, including China and Japan, have heavy government influence backing certain companies and not others (go look up MITI, for crying out loud). How should the United States compete with those nations in trade?

---

Actually, foreign government subsidized industries are one of the few justifications for tariffs. Trump is using tariffs across the board to generate revenue. My concern is the federal government now will be competing with and regulating other American companies. How do you play on a level playing field with your own government?

Give me Capitalism over Socialism any ole day!

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either.

---

At your age, I figured you would have learned by now that every single thing the government touches turns to
s h ! t. It is not ethical for privately owned and public companies to have to compete with government subsidized or government owned companies. And be regulated by government. That is much closer to Socialism than I would like for us to be.

---

RD2, you are really getting beat up today. Deservedly so, but I won't pile on. Remember this favor. I might call it in sometime

" Give me Capitalism over Socialism any ole day!"

OK, where is Capitalism driving US policy anywhere in the last half century?

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either.

---

At your age, I figured you would have learned by now that every single thing the government touches turns to
s h ! t. It is not ethical for privately owned and public companies to have to compete with government subsidized or government owned companies. And be regulated by government. That is much closer to Socialism than I would like for us to be.

---

RD2, you are really getting beat up today. Deservedly so, but I won't pile on. Remember this favor. I might call it in sometime

---

I am getting beat up because I don't want to see U.S. businesses have to compete with the
U. S. government? Ummmm...........Okay.

Quote:

---

Rome have balanced trade? Britain had balanced trade?

---

At the height of their influence and wealth both were empires.

The US was never intended to be one.

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either.

---

At your age, I figured you would have learned by now that every single thing the government touches turns to
s h ! t. It is not ethical for privately owned and public companies to have to compete with government subsidized or government owned companies. And be regulated by government. That is much closer to Socialism than I would like for us to be.

---

RD2, you are really getting beat up today. Deservedly so, but I won't pile on. Remember this favor. I might call it in sometime

---

I am getting beat up because I don't want to see U.S. businesses have to compete with the
U. S. government? Ummmm...........Okay.

---

Wow, do something nice for a guy, and this is how he responds?

Chinese and U.S. officials tentatively agree to avert 100% tariffs, extend current terms for 90 day pause

Still doing 90 day pauses until 2028#MacroEdge

— MacroEdge (@MacroEdgeRes) October 26, 2025

The country that manufactures products and treats money fairly through low taxes, thus creating a base for huge capital investment from both inside and outside that country will likely become a rich nation with low unemployment and huge GDP numbers. President Trump has us on that path. I urge you to look at who predicted growth of at least 4% in past posts on this thread. The Atlanta Fed has recently upped its 4th Quarter GDP predictions to 4%. And that is before the effects of the Trillions of investment money Trump has garnered for the country have yet to be realized. If Powell would do his part as Federal Reserve Chairman and lower rates, our GDP growth could get to 5% in the next couple of years. If the economists at the federal reserve would pull their heads out of their you know what and realize that inflation does not come from economic growth. After all supply side policies and an all out energy production policy creating low energy costs are deflationary actions, so mediating the fires of inflation.

So ignore me or whatever; I don't give a damn. But I was correct in my thoughts and predictions. Have a great life! And by all means enjoy the coming boom!

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

At least Trump is trying all the other income sources than Taxing us to death. Tariffs are simply one way. I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either. Biden and company got us into this mess without any look toward what the country needed

---

At. Some. Point. trade must balance.

---

Actually if you did just a tiny bit of research, you would learn this premise is blatantly false.

1. We cannot produce everything we consume.
I said "balance" not "make everything."
As a matter of fact, we are one of a tiny handful of countries that has the resources to produce everything we consume, if we wanted to. That's a big reason why trade is a much smaller percentage of our GDP than most countries. World average for trade as percentage of GDP is 29.3%. We are at 13.8%

2. We have the world's third largest population. (Approx. 340 million people.) It stands to reason that we will buy more from 192 countries than they buy from us.
Then how does China, with a population of 1.48B people, run structural trade surpluses?

3. Although we are third in population, we are less than 4 1/2 percent of the world's population. Our former trading partners will make new alliances and trade deals and benefit from free trade policy. The American consumer will not.
Again, you are using a statistic which is not determinative for the point you are trying to make - population does not tell us much about GDP or resource base or trade policy or.....

---

We are a quarter of world GDP.
EU is a quarter of world GDP.
Rest of world is a quarter of world GDP.
China is a quarter of world GDP.
We already have trade agreements with EU and the largest players in the "rest of world" countries (UK, Japan, SoKo, etc...) That's ca 60% of world GDP already in our trading bloc. China has its 25% and the worst of the "rest of world" class. Our trade bloc is "best of the best;" China's is "all the rest."

Only a fool would trade our hand for anyone else's. That's why every other nation in the world spends so much public funding to promote exports to the USA (which we must tariff to offset.)

At. Some. Point.....your trade in goods has to balance or your manufacturing sector will wither away.
The only sustainable growth is export-led growth.

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

At least Trump is trying all the other income sources than Taxing us to death. Tariffs are simply one way. I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either. Biden and company got us into this mess without any look toward what the country needed

---

agreed.

Tariffs are necessary to level the field in trade. EVERY ONE of our trade partners have engaged in unfair trade practices while we have been a de facto open market. That is unsustainable.

At. Some. Point. trade must balance.
It will not happen without tariffs to offset what trade partners do to promote their own exports.

---

Trade must balance??? When has that ever happened in world history for a Superpower? Seriously? Rome have balanced trade? Britain had balanced trade? I cannot think of one. Either you manufacture, you conquer, or you become a finance center. Now, add data to it. But, you could say that data is manufacturing, you are creating.

Seriously, please show us ANY Nation of the US size that maintained a trade balance?

---

I would counsel you not to adopt RW2's faulty assumption on size.
"Size" matters very little with respect to trade balance.
https://www.worldstopexports.com/report-card-for-trade-surpluses-and-deficits-by-country/

you are not alone in having a very poor understanding of basic economics of trade:
If the trade account doesn't balance, then you must have a surplus in the capital account to offset it. If you run trade deficits offset by capital account surpluses, your GDP tends to transform from making goods (which pays higher wages) to performing services (which pays lower wages). If you allow that dynamic to become structural, your ability to produce goods withers away. It is insanity for a country with our endowments of people and resources to do such..... to chose a long-term model of selling equity in assets to cover losses in trade. Over time, increasing percentages of the wealth your economy generates gets sent back abroad (repatriation of profits) and the finance account surpluses get harder and harder to generate. We are already seeing that dynamic on demand for US treasury bills. How much further down the hole do you propose to go?

Every class....every professor.....every real world example......"export-led growth is the only sustainable growth." Yes, that is a tenet of theory. Yes, countries pursuing it often make policy choices which have enormous trade offs (waste the profits of the trade). But there is a reason why every country in the world tries its damnedest to export as much as it can, to include crafting a lot of economic policy to subsidize exports. A trade surplus is a good thing (and preferable to a trade deficit) !!!

Again, remember the GDP equation: C + I + G + T = GDP
Please explain how we are better off when "T" is a negative number rather than a positive number.

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

At least Trump is trying all the other income sources than Taxing us to death. Tariffs are simply one way. I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either. Biden and company got us into this mess without any look toward what the country needed

---

agreed.

Tariffs are necessary to level the field in trade. EVERY ONE of our trade partners have engaged in unfair trade practices while we have been a de facto open market. That is unsustainable.

At. Some. Point. trade must balance.
It will not happen without tariffs to offset what trade partners do to promote their own exports.

---

Trade must balance??? When has that ever happened in world history for a Superpower? Seriously? Rome have balanced trade? Britain had balanced trade? I cannot think of one. Either you manufacture, you conquer, or you become a finance center. Now, add data to it. But, you could say that data is manufacturing, you are creating.

Seriously, please show us ANY Nation of the US size that maintained a trade balance?

---

I would counsel you not to adopt RW2's faulty assumption on size.
"Size" matters very little with respect to trade balance.
https://www.worldstopexports.com/report-card-for-trade-surpluses-and-deficits-by-country/

you are not alone in having a very poor understanding of basic economics of trade:
If the trade account doesn't balance, then you must have a surplus in the capital account to offset it. If you run trade deficits offset by capital account surpluses, your GDP tends to transform from making goods (which pays higher wages) to performing services (which pays lower wages). If you allow that dynamic to become structural, your ability to produce goods withers away. It is insanity for a country with our endowments of people and resources to do such..... to chose a long-term model of selling equity in assets to cover losses in trade. Over time, increasing percentages of the wealth your economy generates gets sent back abroad (repatriation of profits) and the finance account surpluses get harder and harder to generate. We are already seeing that dynamic on demand for US treasury bills. How much further down the hole do you propose to go?

Every class....every professor.....every real world example......"export-led growth is the only sustainable growth." Yes, that is a tenet of theory. Yes, countries pursuing it often make policy choices which have enormous trade offs (waste the profits of the trade). But there is a reason why every country in the world tries its damnedest to export as much as it can, to include crafting a lot of economic policy to subsidize exports. A trade surplus is a good thing (and preferable to a trade deficit) !!!

Again, remember the GDP equation: C + I + G + T = GDP
Please explain how we are better off when "T" is a negative number rather than a positive number.

---

Please explain how we are better off when "T" is a negative number rather than a positive number.


The "T" is a negative because so much has moved to services. The "T" is a bad thing when combined with Budget deficits. We all agree on that. Tariffs do not solve the underlying issue of overspending, only Congress can do that. It also looks like overspending is not going to stop regardless of who is in office. This an issue with service based economies.

So, what to do? What I don't understand is why we don't get foreign investment out of Treasuries and into some type of investment fund, not just paying them. We are not going to go back and out manufacture China in consumer goods. We have to play to our strengths, not yearn for yesteryear and use tariffs as a trade policy when fiscal policy is the culprit. I like what Norway did, they have a Wealth Fund for foreign investment.

This would be a nice win

BREAKING: China will make “substantial” purchases of US soybeans, Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent said

— unusual_whales (@unusual_whales) October 26, 2025

boognish_bear said:

---

This would be a nice win

BREAKING: China will make “substantial” purchases of US soybeans, Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent said

— unusual_whales (@unusual_whales) October 26, 2025

---

que our lefties here "Bessent is only doing this because he is a soybean farmer"

Yesterday "Bessent is not a soybean farmer, he just owns the land"

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

At least Trump is trying all the other income sources than Taxing us to death. Tariffs are simply one way. I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either. Biden and company got us into this mess without any look toward what the country needed

---

agreed.

Tariffs are necessary to level the field in trade. EVERY ONE of our trade partners have engaged in unfair trade practices while we have been a de facto open market. That is unsustainable.

At. Some. Point. trade must balance.
It will not happen without tariffs to offset what trade partners do to promote their own exports.

---

Trade must balance??? When has that ever happened in world history for a Superpower? Seriously? Rome have balanced trade? Britain had balanced trade? I cannot think of one. Either you manufacture, you conquer, or you become a finance center. Now, add data to it. But, you could say that data is manufacturing, you are creating.

Seriously, please show us ANY Nation of the US size that maintained a trade balance?

---

I would counsel you not to adopt RW2's faulty assumption on size.
"Size" matters very little with respect to trade balance.
https://www.worldstopexports.com/report-card-for-trade-surpluses-and-deficits-by-country/

you are not alone in having a very poor understanding of basic economics of trade:
If the trade account doesn't balance, then you must have a surplus in the capital account to offset it. If you run trade deficits offset by capital account surpluses, your GDP tends to transform from making goods (which pays higher wages) to performing services (which pays lower wages). If you allow that dynamic to become structural, your ability to produce goods withers away. It is insanity for a country with our endowments of people and resources to do such..... to chose a long-term model of selling equity in assets to cover losses in trade. Over time, increasing percentages of the wealth your economy generates gets sent back abroad (repatriation of profits) and the finance account surpluses get harder and harder to generate. We are already seeing that dynamic on demand for US treasury bills. How much further down the hole do you propose to go?

Every class....every professor.....every real world example......"export-led growth is the only sustainable growth." Yes, that is a tenet of theory. Yes, countries pursuing it often make policy choices which have enormous trade offs (waste the profits of the trade). But there is a reason why every country in the world tries its damnedest to export as much as it can, to include crafting a lot of economic policy to subsidize exports. A trade surplus is a good thing (and preferable to a trade deficit) !!!

Again, remember the GDP equation: C + I + G + T = GDP
Please explain how we are better off when "T" is a negative number rather than a positive number.

---

Please explain how we are better off when "T" is a negative number rather than a positive number.


The "T" is a negative because so much has moved to services.
Cause/effect error. The transition toward a service oriented economy is CAUSED by trade deficits.
The "T" is a bad thing when combined with Budget deficits.
Wrong. Trade deficits create surplus dollars held by trade partners, which they in part use to purchase T-bills (allowing us to more easily finance fiscal deficits). That is one of the reasons the structural trade deficit model is so hard to dump - A TRADE DEFICIT MAKES IT EASIER TO FINANCE FISCAL DEFICITS.....they create an outlet for surplus trade dollars. I mean, that is all "drawn on the chalkboard in class" stuff.
We all agree on that. Tariffs do not solve the underlying issue of overspending, only Congress can do that. It also looks like overspending is not going to stop regardless of who is in office. This an issue with service based economies.
Tariffs, if successful, will create trade balance or surplus, which will make it HARDER to finance budget deficits, since surplus dollars are no longer stacking up in trade partner countries. That will force us to look to traditional finance markets, which of course means the USG will be competing with the private sector for capital. Fortunately.....we have $17T in foreign capital coming into the country to finance production operations. that gives us a window to rapidly contract federal spending without torpedoing GDP, and head off the capital crowd out.

So, what to do? What I don't understand is why we don't get foreign investment out of Treasuries (see above) and into some type of investment fund (like his trade deal investments), not just paying them.
In other words, that's EXACTLY what Trump has done.

We are not going to go back and out manufacture China in consumer goods.
Agreed. Nor should that be an overriding imperative. Trade deficit is only 3% of GDP. We move 20 percentage points of our supply chains back inside the USA, we have fixed the trade deficit problem (an the tariffs should accomplish that) irrespective of whatever happens on the trade deal investments. We don't need to make toasters to restore our power. We need to make steel, to build ships and to lead the AI race.
We have to play to our strengths, not yearn for yesteryear and use tariffs as a trade policy when fiscal policy is the culprit. I like what Norway did, they have a Wealth Fund for foreign investment.
Indeed. But we will need to reduce a lot of debt before a Wealth Fund makes sense, unless......perhaps the digital currency might lead the way on that, or the equity positions we've taken with key companies in strategic industries.

---

Trump's plan is starting to take shape, and early results are positive. Good GDP, Sept trade surplus..... The numbers will fluctuate going forward, but should be on an upward trend and things should be starting to roll by Q2 next year.

Eventually, you will see it.

One big complication? Mamdani's likely election in NY. if he does what he's promising to do, it's going to hamper the NY economy, which is a larger component of national GDP. NY economy gets a cold, the National GDP might get the sniffles

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

At least Trump is trying all the other income sources than Taxing us to death. Tariffs are simply one way. I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either. Biden and company got us into this mess without any look toward what the country needed

---

agreed.

Tariffs are necessary to level the field in trade. EVERY ONE of our trade partners have engaged in unfair trade practices while we have been a de facto open market. That is unsustainable.

At. Some. Point. trade must balance.
It will not happen without tariffs to offset what trade partners do to promote their own exports.

---

Trade must balance??? When has that ever happened in world history for a Superpower? Seriously? Rome have balanced trade? Britain had balanced trade? I cannot think of one. Either you manufacture, you conquer, or you become a finance center. Now, add data to it. But, you could say that data is manufacturing, you are creating.

Seriously, please show us ANY Nation of the US size that maintained a trade balance?

---

I would counsel you not to adopt RW2's faulty assumption on size.
"Size" matters very little with respect to trade balance.
https://www.worldstopexports.com/report-card-for-trade-surpluses-and-deficits-by-country/

you are not alone in having a very poor understanding of basic economics of trade:
If the trade account doesn't balance, then you must have a surplus in the capital account to offset it. If you run trade deficits offset by capital account surpluses, your GDP tends to transform from making goods (which pays higher wages) to performing services (which pays lower wages). If you allow that dynamic to become structural, your ability to produce goods withers away. It is insanity for a country with our endowments of people and resources to do such..... to chose a long-term model of selling equity in assets to cover losses in trade. Over time, increasing percentages of the wealth your economy generates gets sent back abroad (repatriation of profits) and the finance account surpluses get harder and harder to generate. We are already seeing that dynamic on demand for US treasury bills. How much further down the hole do you propose to go?

Every class....every professor.....every real world example......"export-led growth is the only sustainable growth." Yes, that is a tenet of theory. Yes, countries pursuing it often make policy choices which have enormous trade offs (waste the profits of the trade). But there is a reason why every country in the world tries its damnedest to export as much as it can, to include crafting a lot of economic policy to subsidize exports. A trade surplus is a good thing (and preferable to a trade deficit) !!!

Again, remember the GDP equation: C + I + G + T = GDP
Please explain how we are better off when "T" is a negative number rather than a positive number.

---

Please explain how we are better off when "T" is a negative number rather than a positive number.


The "T" is a negative because so much has moved to services.
Cause/effect error. The transition toward a service oriented economy is CAUSED by trade deficits.
The "T" is a bad thing when combined with Budget deficits.
Wrong. Trade deficits create surplus dollars held by trade partners, which they in part use to purchase T-bills (allowing us to more easily finance fiscal deficits). That is one of the reasons the structural trade deficit model is so hard to dump - A TRADE DEFICIT MAKES IT EASIER TO FINANCE FISCAL DEFICITS.....they create an outlet for surplus trade dollars. I mean, that is all "drawn on the chalkboard in class" stuff.
We all agree on that. Tariffs do not solve the underlying issue of overspending, only Congress can do that. It also looks like overspending is not going to stop regardless of who is in office. This an issue with service based economies.
Tariffs, if successful, will create trade balance or surplus, which will make it HARDER to finance budget deficits, since surplus dollars are no longer stacking up in trade partner countries. That will force us to look to traditional finance markets, which of course means the USG will be competing with the private sector for capital. Fortunately.....we have $17T in foreign capital coming into the country to finance production operations. that gives us a window to rapidly contract federal spending without torpedoing GDP, and head off the capital crowd out.

So, what to do? What I don't understand is why we don't get foreign investment out of Treasuries (see above) and into some type of investment fund (like his trade deal investments), not just paying them.
In other words, that's EXACTLY what Trump has done.

We are not going to go back and out manufacture China in consumer goods.
Agreed. Nor should that be an overriding imperative. Trade deficit is only 3% of GDP. We move 20 percentage points of our supply chains back inside the USA, we have fixed the trade deficit problem (an the tariffs should accomplish that) irrespective of whatever happens on the trade deal investments. We don't need to make toasters to restore our power. We need to make steel, to build ships and to lead the AI race.
We have to play to our strengths, not yearn for yesteryear and use tariffs as a trade policy when fiscal policy is the culprit. I like what Norway did, they have a Wealth Fund for foreign investment.
Indeed. But we will need to reduce a lot of debt before a Wealth Fund makes sense, unless......perhaps the digital currency might lead the way on that, or the equity positions we've taken with key companies in strategic industries.

---

Trump's plan is starting to take shape, and early results are positive. Good GDP, Sept trade surplus..... The numbers will fluctuate going forward, but should be on an upward trend and things should be starting to roll by Q2 next year.

Eventually, you will see it.

One big complication? Mamdani's likely election in NY. if he does what he's promising to do, it's going to hamper the NY economy, which is a larger component of national GDP. NY economy gets a cold, the National GDP might get the sniffles

---

You are so full of BS. You are seeing a short term reaction because they got caught by surprise. They will cut an initial deal because there are no options right now. NOBODY likes to be browbeat into submission, "they have no choice" is the absolutely WORST position to negotiate. Because humans will pay you lip service, while working on alternatives to not have to bend a knee to someone like Trump. I guarentee while you bask in your Hubris that we have them over a barrel. They are directing their people to GET US OUT OF THIS POSITION.

Watch, you will see new trade agreements, without the US. Or worse, put us in a position like China threatened already with rare earths. Are you really this short sighted? Nah, you just drank the kool aid.

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

At least Trump is trying all the other income sources than Taxing us to death. Tariffs are simply one way. I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either. Biden and company got us into this mess without any look toward what the country needed

---

agreed.

Tariffs are necessary to level the field in trade. EVERY ONE of our trade partners have engaged in unfair trade practices while we have been a de facto open market. That is unsustainable.

At. Some. Point. trade must balance.
It will not happen without tariffs to offset what trade partners do to promote their own exports.

---

Trade must balance??? When has that ever happened in world history for a Superpower? Seriously? Rome have balanced trade? Britain had balanced trade? I cannot think of one. Either you manufacture, you conquer, or you become a finance center. Now, add data to it. But, you could say that data is manufacturing, you are creating.

Seriously, please show us ANY Nation of the US size that maintained a trade balance?

---

I would counsel you not to adopt RW2's faulty assumption on size.
"Size" matters very little with respect to trade balance.
https://www.worldstopexports.com/report-card-for-trade-surpluses-and-deficits-by-country/

you are not alone in having a very poor understanding of basic economics of trade:
If the trade account doesn't balance, then you must have a surplus in the capital account to offset it. If you run trade deficits offset by capital account surpluses, your GDP tends to transform from making goods (which pays higher wages) to performing services (which pays lower wages). If you allow that dynamic to become structural, your ability to produce goods withers away. It is insanity for a country with our endowments of people and resources to do such..... to chose a long-term model of selling equity in assets to cover losses in trade. Over time, increasing percentages of the wealth your economy generates gets sent back abroad (repatriation of profits) and the finance account surpluses get harder and harder to generate. We are already seeing that dynamic on demand for US treasury bills. How much further down the hole do you propose to go?

Every class....every professor.....every real world example......"export-led growth is the only sustainable growth." Yes, that is a tenet of theory. Yes, countries pursuing it often make policy choices which have enormous trade offs (waste the profits of the trade). But there is a reason why every country in the world tries its damnedest to export as much as it can, to include crafting a lot of economic policy to subsidize exports. A trade surplus is a good thing (and preferable to a trade deficit) !!!

Again, remember the GDP equation: C + I + G + T = GDP
Please explain how we are better off when "T" is a negative number rather than a positive number.

---

Please explain how we are better off when "T" is a negative number rather than a positive number.


The "T" is a negative because so much has moved to services.
Cause/effect error. The transition toward a service oriented economy is CAUSED by trade deficits.
The "T" is a bad thing when combined with Budget deficits.
Wrong. Trade deficits create surplus dollars held by trade partners, which they in part use to purchase T-bills (allowing us to more easily finance fiscal deficits). That is one of the reasons the structural trade deficit model is so hard to dump - A TRADE DEFICIT MAKES IT EASIER TO FINANCE FISCAL DEFICITS.....they create an outlet for surplus trade dollars. I mean, that is all "drawn on the chalkboard in class" stuff.
We all agree on that. Tariffs do not solve the underlying issue of overspending, only Congress can do that. It also looks like overspending is not going to stop regardless of who is in office. This an issue with service based economies.
Tariffs, if successful, will create trade balance or surplus, which will make it HARDER to finance budget deficits, since surplus dollars are no longer stacking up in trade partner countries. That will force us to look to traditional finance markets, which of course means the USG will be competing with the private sector for capital. Fortunately.....we have $17T in foreign capital coming into the country to finance production operations. that gives us a window to rapidly contract federal spending without torpedoing GDP, and head off the capital crowd out.

So, what to do? What I don't understand is why we don't get foreign investment out of Treasuries (see above) and into some type of investment fund (like his trade deal investments), not just paying them.
In other words, that's EXACTLY what Trump has done.

We are not going to go back and out manufacture China in consumer goods.
Agreed. Nor should that be an overriding imperative. Trade deficit is only 3% of GDP. We move 20 percentage points of our supply chains back inside the USA, we have fixed the trade deficit problem (an the tariffs should accomplish that) irrespective of whatever happens on the trade deal investments. We don't need to make toasters to restore our power. We need to make steel, to build ships and to lead the AI race.
We have to play to our strengths, not yearn for yesteryear and use tariffs as a trade policy when fiscal policy is the culprit. I like what Norway did, they have a Wealth Fund for foreign investment.
Indeed. But we will need to reduce a lot of debt before a Wealth Fund makes sense, unless......perhaps the digital currency might lead the way on that, or the equity positions we've taken with key companies in strategic industries.

---

Trump's plan is starting to take shape, and early results are positive. Good GDP, Sept trade surplus..... The numbers will fluctuate going forward, but should be on an upward trend and things should be starting to roll by Q2 next year.

Eventually, you will see it.

One big complication? Mamdani's likely election in NY. if he does what he's promising to do, it's going to hamper the NY economy, which is a larger component of national GDP. NY economy gets a cold, the National GDP might get the sniffles

---

You are so full of BS. You are seeing a short term reaction because they got caught by surprise. They will cut an initial deal because there are no options right now. NOBODY likes to be browbeat into submission, "they have no choice" is the absolutely WORST position to negotiate. Because humans will pay you lip service, while working on alternatives to not have to bend a knee to someone like Trump. I guarentee while you bask in your Hubris that we have them over a barrel. They are directing their people to GET US OUT OF THIS POSITION.
The world works on power, not emotion. They want into our markets, they meet our terms or they will lose their market share to someone else who will. And they won't cheat much, because they know this admin will hold them accountable. Ok, except for China. China, like all authoritarian powers, cheats as a business model. Another reason for winding down our trade relationship with them as expeditiously as is practical. Japan should be quite angry with us over the trade deal you say we forced upon them. In reality, they're so angry that they added a raw earth trade deal to the mix and gave former PM Abe's golf clubs to Pres. Trump as a gesture of goodwill.

Watch, you will see new trade agreements, without the US. Or worse, put us in a position like China threatened already with rare earths. Are you really this short sighted? Nah, you just drank the kool aid.

---

You're thrashing about wildly, because you're now in the cul-de-sac. You were wrong about all aspects of the trade policy, for reasons mostly disconnected from economics. Trump's trade policy is textbook good policy. It's impact is already perceptible, and it will grow stronger over the next 24-36 months. If the goal is to win the AI race against China and lead the world into a bold new age of technology, the start is looking quite promising. The resulting automation revolution will have a wide range of positive impacts on our manufacturing sector, improving our competitive edge in trade.

Quit railing against reality. Watch & learn. Tariffs are not the spawn of Satan. They are the tool of last resort against unfair trade practices. Reticence to use them tends to embolden trade partners to cheat more early and more often. Reagan used them to fight unfair Japanese trade policies. All those Japanese auto maker plants here in the USA? You can thank Reagan's tariffs for them.

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

so, let me get this straight. Trump's Tarriifs are running our soy bean farmers out of business. because of trade war. We are going to buy our beef from Argentina.Oh, and Trump wants us to write him a personal check for $230M. You cant make this up.

---

LOL!!! He also put out a message today that beef producers in the U.S. should lower their prices. Absolutely brilliant!

You don't think the majority of Americans are so excited about the Big Beautiful Ballroom that they are about to wet themselves? Nah.........me neither.

All of a sudden I feel like Trump has truly lost touch with working Americans. I did not feel that way about his first term.

---

LOL no wonder you spend so much time wailing in the weeds. You don't understand basic math: the number of voters buying beef > the number of voters producing beef (by many orders of magnitude).

Yes, buying Argentine beef rather than Brazilian beef is a good policy choice. Brazil is turning toward authoritarian leftism, while Argentina is turning toward classical liberalism. Better to trade with like-minded allies. And imports are a good tool to use to limit rising prices, since US beef producers cannot meet current demand

You are an allegedly smart person. Why wo you work so hard to be so dumb?

---

Our President said yesterday that "without tariffs we would be a third world country". Talk about DUMB. Statements like this from Trump are downright embarrassing.

---

Remember the way he inherited the country from Bidenomics and Obamacare. We were in the midst of becoming a Socialist country if he hadnt stepped in when he did, or if Harris had taken over, bringing new forms of income other than the old Democrat way of "TAX, TAX, TAX. Let us line our liberal pockets with Taxpayer money"

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

At least Trump is trying all the other income sources than Taxing us to death. Tariffs are simply one way. I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either. Biden and company got us into this mess without any look toward what the country needed

---

agreed.

Tariffs are necessary to level the field in trade. EVERY ONE of our trade partners have engaged in unfair trade practices while we have been a de facto open market. That is unsustainable.

At. Some. Point. trade must balance.
It will not happen without tariffs to offset what trade partners do to promote their own exports.

---

Trade must balance??? When has that ever happened in world history for a Superpower? Seriously? Rome have balanced trade? Britain had balanced trade? I cannot think of one. Either you manufacture, you conquer, or you become a finance center. Now, add data to it. But, you could say that data is manufacturing, you are creating.

Seriously, please show us ANY Nation of the US size that maintained a trade balance?

---

I would counsel you not to adopt RW2's faulty assumption on size.
"Size" matters very little with respect to trade balance.
https://www.worldstopexports.com/report-card-for-trade-surpluses-and-deficits-by-country/

you are not alone in having a very poor understanding of basic economics of trade:
If the trade account doesn't balance, then you must have a surplus in the capital account to offset it. If you run trade deficits offset by capital account surpluses, your GDP tends to transform from making goods (which pays higher wages) to performing services (which pays lower wages). If you allow that dynamic to become structural, your ability to produce goods withers away. It is insanity for a country with our endowments of people and resources to do such..... to chose a long-term model of selling equity in assets to cover losses in trade. Over time, increasing percentages of the wealth your economy generates gets sent back abroad (repatriation of profits) and the finance account surpluses get harder and harder to generate. We are already seeing that dynamic on demand for US treasury bills. How much further down the hole do you propose to go?

Every class....every professor.....every real world example......"export-led growth is the only sustainable growth." Yes, that is a tenet of theory. Yes, countries pursuing it often make policy choices which have enormous trade offs (waste the profits of the trade). But there is a reason why every country in the world tries its damnedest to export as much as it can, to include crafting a lot of economic policy to subsidize exports. A trade surplus is a good thing (and preferable to a trade deficit) !!!

Again, remember the GDP equation: C + I + G + T = GDP
Please explain how we are better off when "T" is a negative number rather than a positive number.

---

Please explain how we are better off when "T" is a negative number rather than a positive number.


The "T" is a negative because so much has moved to services.
Cause/effect error. The transition toward a service oriented economy is CAUSED by trade deficits.
The "T" is a bad thing when combined with Budget deficits.
Wrong. Trade deficits create surplus dollars held by trade partners, which they in part use to purchase T-bills (allowing us to more easily finance fiscal deficits). That is one of the reasons the structural trade deficit model is so hard to dump - A TRADE DEFICIT MAKES IT EASIER TO FINANCE FISCAL DEFICITS.....they create an outlet for surplus trade dollars. I mean, that is all "drawn on the chalkboard in class" stuff.
We all agree on that. Tariffs do not solve the underlying issue of overspending, only Congress can do that. It also looks like overspending is not going to stop regardless of who is in office. This an issue with service based economies.
Tariffs, if successful, will create trade balance or surplus, which will make it HARDER to finance budget deficits, since surplus dollars are no longer stacking up in trade partner countries. That will force us to look to traditional finance markets, which of course means the USG will be competing with the private sector for capital. Fortunately.....we have $17T in foreign capital coming into the country to finance production operations. that gives us a window to rapidly contract federal spending without torpedoing GDP, and head off the capital crowd out.

So, what to do? What I don't understand is why we don't get foreign investment out of Treasuries (see above) and into some type of investment fund (like his trade deal investments), not just paying them.
In other words, that's EXACTLY what Trump has done.

We are not going to go back and out manufacture China in consumer goods.
Agreed. Nor should that be an overriding imperative. Trade deficit is only 3% of GDP. We move 20 percentage points of our supply chains back inside the USA, we have fixed the trade deficit problem (an the tariffs should accomplish that) irrespective of whatever happens on the trade deal investments. We don't need to make toasters to restore our power. We need to make steel, to build ships and to lead the AI race.
We have to play to our strengths, not yearn for yesteryear and use tariffs as a trade policy when fiscal policy is the culprit. I like what Norway did, they have a Wealth Fund for foreign investment.
Indeed. But we will need to reduce a lot of debt before a Wealth Fund makes sense, unless......perhaps the digital currency might lead the way on that, or the equity positions we've taken with key companies in strategic industries.

---

Trump's plan is starting to take shape, and early results are positive. Good GDP, Sept trade surplus..... The numbers will fluctuate going forward, but should be on an upward trend and things should be starting to roll by Q2 next year.

Eventually, you will see it.

One big complication? Mamdani's likely election in NY. if he does what he's promising to do, it's going to hamper the NY economy, which is a larger component of national GDP. NY economy gets a cold, the National GDP might get the sniffles

---

You are so full of BS. You are seeing a short term reaction because they got caught by surprise. They will cut an initial deal because there are no options right now. NOBODY likes to be browbeat into submission, "they have no choice" is the absolutely WORST position to negotiate. Because humans will pay you lip service, while working on alternatives to not have to bend a knee to someone like Trump. I guarentee while you bask in your Hubris that we have them over a barrel. They are directing their people to GET US OUT OF THIS POSITION.
The world works on power, not emotion. They want into our markets, they meet our terms or they will lose their market share to someone else who will. And they won't cheat much, because they know this admin will hold them accountable. Ok, except for China. China, like all authoritarian powers, cheats as a business model. Another reason for winding down our trade relationship with them as expeditiously as is practical. Japan should be quite angry with us over the trade deal you say we forced upon them. In reality, they're so angry that they added a raw earth trade deal to the mix and gave former PM Abe's golf clubs to Pres. Trump as a gesture of goodwill.

Watch, you will see new trade agreements, without the US. Or worse, put us in a position like China threatened already with rare earths. Are you really this short sighted? Nah, you just drank the kool aid.

---

You're thrashing about wildly, because you're now in the cul-de-sac. You were wrong about all aspects of the trade policy, for reasons mostly disconnected from economics. Trump's trade policy is textbook good policy. It's impact is already perceptible, and it will grow stronger over the next 24-36 months. If the goal is to win the AI race against China and lead the world into a bold new age of technology, the start is looking quite promising. The resulting automation revolution will have a wide range of positive impacts on our manufacturing sector, improving our competitive edge in trade.

Quit railing against reality. Watch & learn. Tariffs are not the spawn of Satan. They are the tool of last resort against unfair trade practices. Reticence to use them tends to embolden trade partners to cheat more early and more often. Reagan used them to fight unfair Japanese trade policies. All those Japanese auto maker plants here in the USA? You can thank Reagan's tariffs for them.

---

Quit the editorials and I will too. "Thrashing about wildly" You are so full of it.

You really believe that emotion doesn't play into power? You really believe that people that reach those levels don't remember slights? In Asia? In Europe? Who is trashing about wildly praying this tariff scheme doesn't blow up in our faces? Your level of Hubris is really incredible.

Trump, Miller and Bessent don't operate on emotion? They put aside slights and disrespects? Yeah...

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

At least Trump is trying all the other income sources than Taxing us to death. Tariffs are simply one way. I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either. Biden and company got us into this mess without any look toward what the country needed

---

agreed.

Tariffs are necessary to level the field in trade. EVERY ONE of our trade partners have engaged in unfair trade practices while we have been a de facto open market. That is unsustainable.

At. Some. Point. trade must balance.
It will not happen without tariffs to offset what trade partners do to promote their own exports.

---

Trade must balance??? When has that ever happened in world history for a Superpower? Seriously? Rome have balanced trade? Britain had balanced trade? I cannot think of one. Either you manufacture, you conquer, or you become a finance center. Now, add data to it. But, you could say that data is manufacturing, you are creating.

Seriously, please show us ANY Nation of the US size that maintained a trade balance?

---

I would counsel you not to adopt RW2's faulty assumption on size.
"Size" matters very little with respect to trade balance.
https://www.worldstopexports.com/report-card-for-trade-surpluses-and-deficits-by-country/

you are not alone in having a very poor understanding of basic economics of trade:
If the trade account doesn't balance, then you must have a surplus in the capital account to offset it. If you run trade deficits offset by capital account surpluses, your GDP tends to transform from making goods (which pays higher wages) to performing services (which pays lower wages). If you allow that dynamic to become structural, your ability to produce goods withers away. It is insanity for a country with our endowments of people and resources to do such..... to chose a long-term model of selling equity in assets to cover losses in trade. Over time, increasing percentages of the wealth your economy generates gets sent back abroad (repatriation of profits) and the finance account surpluses get harder and harder to generate. We are already seeing that dynamic on demand for US treasury bills. How much further down the hole do you propose to go?

Every class....every professor.....every real world example......"export-led growth is the only sustainable growth." Yes, that is a tenet of theory. Yes, countries pursuing it often make policy choices which have enormous trade offs (waste the profits of the trade). But there is a reason why every country in the world tries its damnedest to export as much as it can, to include crafting a lot of economic policy to subsidize exports. A trade surplus is a good thing (and preferable to a trade deficit) !!!

Again, remember the GDP equation: C + I + G + T = GDP
Please explain how we are better off when "T" is a negative number rather than a positive number.

---

Please explain how we are better off when "T" is a negative number rather than a positive number.


The "T" is a negative because so much has moved to services.
Cause/effect error. The transition toward a service oriented economy is CAUSED by trade deficits.
The "T" is a bad thing when combined with Budget deficits.
Wrong. Trade deficits create surplus dollars held by trade partners, which they in part use to purchase T-bills (allowing us to more easily finance fiscal deficits). That is one of the reasons the structural trade deficit model is so hard to dump - A TRADE DEFICIT MAKES IT EASIER TO FINANCE FISCAL DEFICITS.....they create an outlet for surplus trade dollars. I mean, that is all "drawn on the chalkboard in class" stuff.
We all agree on that. Tariffs do not solve the underlying issue of overspending, only Congress can do that. It also looks like overspending is not going to stop regardless of who is in office. This an issue with service based economies.
Tariffs, if successful, will create trade balance or surplus, which will make it HARDER to finance budget deficits, since surplus dollars are no longer stacking up in trade partner countries. That will force us to look to traditional finance markets, which of course means the USG will be competing with the private sector for capital. Fortunately.....we have $17T in foreign capital coming into the country to finance production operations. that gives us a window to rapidly contract federal spending without torpedoing GDP, and head off the capital crowd out.

So, what to do? What I don't understand is why we don't get foreign investment out of Treasuries (see above) and into some type of investment fund (like his trade deal investments), not just paying them.
In other words, that's EXACTLY what Trump has done.

We are not going to go back and out manufacture China in consumer goods.
Agreed. Nor should that be an overriding imperative. Trade deficit is only 3% of GDP. We move 20 percentage points of our supply chains back inside the USA, we have fixed the trade deficit problem (an the tariffs should accomplish that) irrespective of whatever happens on the trade deal investments. We don't need to make toasters to restore our power. We need to make steel, to build ships and to lead the AI race.
We have to play to our strengths, not yearn for yesteryear and use tariffs as a trade policy when fiscal policy is the culprit. I like what Norway did, they have a Wealth Fund for foreign investment.
Indeed. But we will need to reduce a lot of debt before a Wealth Fund makes sense, unless......perhaps the digital currency might lead the way on that, or the equity positions we've taken with key companies in strategic industries.

---

Trump's plan is starting to take shape, and early results are positive. Good GDP, Sept trade surplus..... The numbers will fluctuate going forward, but should be on an upward trend and things should be starting to roll by Q2 next year.

Eventually, you will see it.

One big complication? Mamdani's likely election in NY. if he does what he's promising to do, it's going to hamper the NY economy, which is a larger component of national GDP. NY economy gets a cold, the National GDP might get the sniffles

---

You are so full of BS. You are seeing a short term reaction because they got caught by surprise. They will cut an initial deal because there are no options right now. NOBODY likes to be browbeat into submission, "they have no choice" is the absolutely WORST position to negotiate. Because humans will pay you lip service, while working on alternatives to not have to bend a knee to someone like Trump. I guarentee while you bask in your Hubris that we have them over a barrel. They are directing their people to GET US OUT OF THIS POSITION.
The world works on power, not emotion. They want into our markets, they meet our terms or they will lose their market share to someone else who will. And they won't cheat much, because they know this admin will hold them accountable. Ok, except for China. China, like all authoritarian powers, cheats as a business model. Another reason for winding down our trade relationship with them as expeditiously as is practical. Japan should be quite angry with us over the trade deal you say we forced upon them. In reality, they're so angry that they added a raw earth trade deal to the mix and gave former PM Abe's golf clubs to Pres. Trump as a gesture of goodwill.

Watch, you will see new trade agreements, without the US. Or worse, put us in a position like China threatened already with rare earths. Are you really this short sighted? Nah, you just drank the kool aid.

---

You're thrashing about wildly, because you're now in the cul-de-sac. You were wrong about all aspects of the trade policy, for reasons mostly disconnected from economics. Trump's trade policy is textbook good policy. It's impact is already perceptible, and it will grow stronger over the next 24-36 months. If the goal is to win the AI race against China and lead the world into a bold new age of technology, the start is looking quite promising. The resulting automation revolution will have a wide range of positive impacts on our manufacturing sector, improving our competitive edge in trade.

Quit railing against reality. Watch & learn. Tariffs are not the spawn of Satan. They are the tool of last resort against unfair trade practices. Reticence to use them tends to embolden trade partners to cheat more early and more often. Reagan used them to fight unfair Japanese trade policies. All those Japanese auto maker plants here in the USA? You can thank Reagan's tariffs for them.

---

Quit the editorials and I will too. "Thrashing about wildly" You are so full of it.
You haven't been right about much this year. You said we'd get no deals, and we got great deals. You said things would get worse, yet. the priority things in distress have marginally improved. Quit thrashing around wildly and you'll see it.

You really believe that emotion doesn't play into power? You really believe that people that reach those levels don't remember slights? In Asia? In Europe?
Most people wise enough to get elected to leadership of a country don't let emotion drive their thinking. They understand power dynamics. They understand that its wise to not dwell on a slight and move on to getting business done.
Who is trashing about wildly praying this tariff scheme doesn't blow up in our faces? Your level of Hubris is really incredible.
I'm not wildly praying about anything. I cited mainstream economic theory, textbooks, actual experience, real world outcomes in the past, etc..... And I've cited the stats of the moment. And all you do is scream about feelings of others.

Trump, Miller and Bessent don't operate on emotion? They put aside slights and disrespects? Yeah..
They don't let slights drive their agenda like you do..

---

dude. how much more has to happen for you to pause, reorient, and get back to reality?

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

At least Trump is trying all the other income sources than Taxing us to death. Tariffs are simply one way. I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either. Biden and company got us into this mess without any look toward what the country needed

---

agreed.

Tariffs are necessary to level the field in trade. EVERY ONE of our trade partners have engaged in unfair trade practices while we have been a de facto open market. That is unsustainable.

At. Some. Point. trade must balance.
It will not happen without tariffs to offset what trade partners do to promote their own exports.

---

Trade must balance??? When has that ever happened in world history for a Superpower? Seriously? Rome have balanced trade? Britain had balanced trade? I cannot think of one. Either you manufacture, you conquer, or you become a finance center. Now, add data to it. But, you could say that data is manufacturing, you are creating.

Seriously, please show us ANY Nation of the US size that maintained a trade balance?

---

I would counsel you not to adopt RW2's faulty assumption on size.
"Size" matters very little with respect to trade balance.
https://www.worldstopexports.com/report-card-for-trade-surpluses-and-deficits-by-country/

you are not alone in having a very poor understanding of basic economics of trade:
If the trade account doesn't balance, then you must have a surplus in the capital account to offset it. If you run trade deficits offset by capital account surpluses, your GDP tends to transform from making goods (which pays higher wages) to performing services (which pays lower wages). If you allow that dynamic to become structural, your ability to produce goods withers away. It is insanity for a country with our endowments of people and resources to do such..... to chose a long-term model of selling equity in assets to cover losses in trade. Over time, increasing percentages of the wealth your economy generates gets sent back abroad (repatriation of profits) and the finance account surpluses get harder and harder to generate. We are already seeing that dynamic on demand for US treasury bills. How much further down the hole do you propose to go?

Every class....every professor.....every real world example......"export-led growth is the only sustainable growth." Yes, that is a tenet of theory. Yes, countries pursuing it often make policy choices which have enormous trade offs (waste the profits of the trade). But there is a reason why every country in the world tries its damnedest to export as much as it can, to include crafting a lot of economic policy to subsidize exports. A trade surplus is a good thing (and preferable to a trade deficit) !!!

Again, remember the GDP equation: C + I + G + T = GDP
Please explain how we are better off when "T" is a negative number rather than a positive number.

---

Please explain how we are better off when "T" is a negative number rather than a positive number.


The "T" is a negative because so much has moved to services.
Cause/effect error. The transition toward a service oriented economy is CAUSED by trade deficits.
The "T" is a bad thing when combined with Budget deficits.
Wrong. Trade deficits create surplus dollars held by trade partners, which they in part use to purchase T-bills (allowing us to more easily finance fiscal deficits). That is one of the reasons the structural trade deficit model is so hard to dump - A TRADE DEFICIT MAKES IT EASIER TO FINANCE FISCAL DEFICITS.....they create an outlet for surplus trade dollars. I mean, that is all "drawn on the chalkboard in class" stuff.
We all agree on that. Tariffs do not solve the underlying issue of overspending, only Congress can do that. It also looks like overspending is not going to stop regardless of who is in office. This an issue with service based economies.
Tariffs, if successful, will create trade balance or surplus, which will make it HARDER to finance budget deficits, since surplus dollars are no longer stacking up in trade partner countries. That will force us to look to traditional finance markets, which of course means the USG will be competing with the private sector for capital. Fortunately.....we have $17T in foreign capital coming into the country to finance production operations. that gives us a window to rapidly contract federal spending without torpedoing GDP, and head off the capital crowd out.

So, what to do? What I don't understand is why we don't get foreign investment out of Treasuries (see above) and into some type of investment fund (like his trade deal investments), not just paying them.
In other words, that's EXACTLY what Trump has done.

We are not going to go back and out manufacture China in consumer goods.
Agreed. Nor should that be an overriding imperative. Trade deficit is only 3% of GDP. We move 20 percentage points of our supply chains back inside the USA, we have fixed the trade deficit problem (an the tariffs should accomplish that) irrespective of whatever happens on the trade deal investments. We don't need to make toasters to restore our power. We need to make steel, to build ships and to lead the AI race.
We have to play to our strengths, not yearn for yesteryear and use tariffs as a trade policy when fiscal policy is the culprit. I like what Norway did, they have a Wealth Fund for foreign investment.
Indeed. But we will need to reduce a lot of debt before a Wealth Fund makes sense, unless......perhaps the digital currency might lead the way on that, or the equity positions we've taken with key companies in strategic industries.

---

Trump's plan is starting to take shape, and early results are positive. Good GDP, Sept trade surplus..... The numbers will fluctuate going forward, but should be on an upward trend and things should be starting to roll by Q2 next year.

Eventually, you will see it.

One big complication? Mamdani's likely election in NY. if he does what he's promising to do, it's going to hamper the NY economy, which is a larger component of national GDP. NY economy gets a cold, the National GDP might get the sniffles

---

You are so full of BS. You are seeing a short term reaction because they got caught by surprise. They will cut an initial deal because there are no options right now. NOBODY likes to be browbeat into submission, "they have no choice" is the absolutely WORST position to negotiate. Because humans will pay you lip service, while working on alternatives to not have to bend a knee to someone like Trump. I guarentee while you bask in your Hubris that we have them over a barrel. They are directing their people to GET US OUT OF THIS POSITION.
The world works on power, not emotion. They want into our markets, they meet our terms or they will lose their market share to someone else who will. And they won't cheat much, because they know this admin will hold them accountable. Ok, except for China. China, like all authoritarian powers, cheats as a business model. Another reason for winding down our trade relationship with them as expeditiously as is practical. Japan should be quite angry with us over the trade deal you say we forced upon them. In reality, they're so angry that they added a raw earth trade deal to the mix and gave former PM Abe's golf clubs to Pres. Trump as a gesture of goodwill.

Watch, you will see new trade agreements, without the US. Or worse, put us in a position like China threatened already with rare earths. Are you really this short sighted? Nah, you just drank the kool aid.

---

You're thrashing about wildly, because you're now in the cul-de-sac. You were wrong about all aspects of the trade policy, for reasons mostly disconnected from economics. Trump's trade policy is textbook good policy. It's impact is already perceptible, and it will grow stronger over the next 24-36 months. If the goal is to win the AI race against China and lead the world into a bold new age of technology, the start is looking quite promising. The resulting automation revolution will have a wide range of positive impacts on our manufacturing sector, improving our competitive edge in trade.

Quit railing against reality. Watch & learn. Tariffs are not the spawn of Satan. They are the tool of last resort against unfair trade practices. Reticence to use them tends to embolden trade partners to cheat more early and more often. Reagan used them to fight unfair Japanese trade policies. All those Japanese auto maker plants here in the USA? You can thank Reagan's tariffs for them.

---

Quit the editorials and I will too. "Thrashing about wildly" You are so full of it.
You haven't been right about much this year. You said we'd get no deals, and we got great deals. You said things would get worse, yet. the priority things in distress have marginally improved. Quit thrashing around wildly and you'll see it.

You really believe that emotion doesn't play into power? You really believe that people that reach those levels don't remember slights? In Asia? In Europe?
Most people wise enough to get elected to leadership of a country don't let emotion drive their thinking. They understand power dynamics. They understand that its wise to not dwell on a slight and move on to getting business done.
Who is trashing about wildly praying this tariff scheme doesn't blow up in our faces? Your level of Hubris is really incredible.
I'm not wildly praying about anything. I cited mainstream economic theory, textbooks, actual experience, real world outcomes in the past, etc..... And I've cited the stats of the moment. And all you do is scream about feelings of others.

Trump, Miller and Bessent don't operate on emotion? They put aside slights and disrespects? Yeah..
They don't let slights drive their agenda like you do..

---

dude. how much more has to happen for you to pause, reorient, and get back to reality?

---

Drive agenda?

Reality check, it is a message board to discuss politics.

Also, " They don't let slights drive their agenda" - Trump? Miller? Well any shred of credibilty you had is shot...

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Assassin said:

---

whiterock said:

---

we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

---

At least Trump is trying all the other income sources than Taxing us to death. Tariffs are simply one way. I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either. Biden and company got us into this mess without any look toward what the country needed

---

agreed.

Tariffs are necessary to level the field in trade. EVERY ONE of our trade partners have engaged in unfair trade practices while we have been a de facto open market. That is unsustainable.

At. Some. Point. trade must balance.
It will not happen without tariffs to offset what trade partners do to promote their own exports.

---

Trade must balance??? When has that ever happened in world history for a Superpower? Seriously? Rome have balanced trade? Britain had balanced trade? I cannot think of one. Either you manufacture, you conquer, or you become a finance center. Now, add data to it. But, you could say that data is manufacturing, you are creating.

Seriously, please show us ANY Nation of the US size that maintained a trade balance?

---

I would counsel you not to adopt RW2's faulty assumption on size.
"Size" matters very little with respect to trade balance.
https://www.worldstopexports.com/report-card-for-trade-surpluses-and-deficits-by-country/

you are not alone in having a very poor understanding of basic economics of trade:
If the trade account doesn't balance, then you must have a surplus in the capital account to offset it. If you run trade deficits offset by capital account surpluses, your GDP tends to transform from making goods (which pays higher wages) to performing services (which pays lower wages). If you allow that dynamic to become structural, your ability to produce goods withers away. It is insanity for a country with our endowments of people and resources to do such..... to chose a long-term model of selling equity in assets to cover losses in trade. Over time, increasing percentages of the wealth your economy generates gets sent back abroad (repatriation of profits) and the finance account surpluses get harder and harder to generate. We are already seeing that dynamic on demand for US treasury bills. How much further down the hole do you propose to go?

Every class....every professor.....every real world example......"export-led growth is the only sustainable growth." Yes, that is a tenet of theory. Yes, countries pursuing it often make policy choices which have enormous trade offs (waste the profits of the trade). But there is a reason why every country in the world tries its damnedest to export as much as it can, to include crafting a lot of economic policy to subsidize exports. A trade surplus is a good thing (and preferable to a trade deficit) !!!

Again, remember the GDP equation: C + I + G + T = GDP
Please explain how we are better off when "T" is a negative number rather than a positive number.

---

Please explain how we are better off when "T" is a negative number rather than a positive number.


The "T" is a negative because so much has moved to services.
Cause/effect error. The transition toward a service oriented economy is CAUSED by trade deficits.
The "T" is a bad thing when combined with Budget deficits.
Wrong. Trade deficits create surplus dollars held by trade partners, which they in part use to purchase T-bills (allowing us to more easily finance fiscal deficits). That is one of the reasons the structural trade deficit model is so hard to dump - A TRADE DEFICIT MAKES IT EASIER TO FINANCE FISCAL DEFICITS.....they create an outlet for surplus trade dollars. I mean, that is all "drawn on the chalkboard in class" stuff.
We all agree on that. Tariffs do not solve the underlying issue of overspending, only Congress can do that. It also looks like overspending is not going to stop regardless of who is in office. This an issue with service based economies.
Tariffs, if successful, will create trade balance or surplus, which will make it HARDER to finance budget deficits, since surplus dollars are no longer stacking up in trade partner countries. That will force us to look to traditional finance markets, which of course means the USG will be competing with the private sector for capital. Fortunately.....we have $17T in foreign capital coming into the country to finance production operations. that gives us a window to rapidly contract federal spending without torpedoing GDP, and head off the capital crowd out.

So, what to do? What I don't understand is why we don't get foreign investment out of Treasuries (see above) and into some type of investment fund (like his trade deal investments), not just paying them.
In other words, that's EXACTLY what Trump has done.

We are not going to go back and out manufacture China in consumer goods.
Agreed. Nor should that be an overriding imperative. Trade deficit is only 3% of GDP. We move 20 percentage points of our supply chains back inside the USA, we have fixed the trade deficit problem (an the tariffs should accomplish that) irrespective of whatever happens on the trade deal investments. We don't need to make toasters to restore our power. We need to make steel, to build ships and to lead the AI race.
We have to play to our strengths, not yearn for yesteryear and use tariffs as a trade policy when fiscal policy is the culprit. I like what Norway did, they have a Wealth Fund for foreign investment.
Indeed. But we will need to reduce a lot of debt before a Wealth Fund makes sense, unless......perhaps the digital currency might lead the way on that, or the equity positions we've taken with key companies in strategic industries.

---

Trump's plan is starting to take shape, and early results are positive. Good GDP, Sept trade surplus..... The numbers will fluctuate going forward, but should be on an upward trend and things should be starting to roll by Q2 next year.

Eventually, you will see it.

One big complication? Mamdani's likely election in NY. if he does what he's promising to do, it's going to hamper the NY economy, which is a larger component of national GDP. NY economy gets a cold, the National GDP might get the sniffles

---

You are so full of BS. You are seeing a short term reaction because they got caught by surprise. They will cut an initial deal because there are no options right now. NOBODY likes to be browbeat into submission, "they have no choice" is the absolutely WORST position to negotiate. Because humans will pay you lip service, while working on alternatives to not have to bend a knee to someone like Trump. I guarentee while you bask in your Hubris that we have them over a barrel. They are directing their people to GET US OUT OF THIS POSITION.
The world works on power, not emotion. They want into our markets, they meet our terms or they will lose their market share to someone else who will. And they won't cheat much, because they know this admin will hold them accountable. Ok, except for China. China, like all authoritarian powers, cheats as a business model. Another reason for winding down our trade relationship with them as expeditiously as is practical. Japan should be quite angry with us over the trade deal you say we forced upon them. In reality, they're so angry that they added a raw earth trade deal to the mix and gave former PM Abe's golf clubs to Pres. Trump as a gesture of goodwill.

Watch, you will see new trade agreements, without the US. Or worse, put us in a position like China threatened already with rare earths. Are you really this short sighted? Nah, you just drank the kool aid.

---

You're thrashing about wildly, because you're now in the cul-de-sac. You were wrong about all aspects of the trade policy, for reasons mostly disconnected from economics. Trump's trade policy is textbook good policy. It's impact is already perceptible, and it will grow stronger over the next 24-36 months. If the goal is to win the AI race against China and lead the world into a bold new age of technology, the start is looking quite promising. The resulting automation revolution will have a wide range of positive impacts on our manufacturing sector, improving our competitive edge in trade.

Quit railing against reality. Watch & learn. Tariffs are not the spawn of Satan. They are the tool of last resort against unfair trade practices. Reticence to use them tends to embolden trade partners to cheat more early and more often. Reagan used them to fight unfair Japanese trade policies. All those Japanese auto maker plants here in the USA? You can thank Reagan's tariffs for them.

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Quit the editorials and I will too. "Thrashing about wildly" You are so full of it.
You haven't been right about much this year. You said we'd get no deals, and we got great deals. You said things would get worse, yet. the priority things in distress have marginally improved. Quit thrashing around wildly and you'll see it.

You really believe that emotion doesn't play into power? You really believe that people that reach those levels don't remember slights? In Asia? In Europe?
Most people wise enough to get elected to leadership of a country don't let emotion drive their thinking. They understand power dynamics. They understand that its wise to not dwell on a slight and move on to getting business done.
Who is trashing about wildly praying this tariff scheme doesn't blow up in our faces? Your level of Hubris is really incredible.
I'm not wildly praying about anything. I cited mainstream economic theory, textbooks, actual experience, real world outcomes in the past, etc..... And I've cited the stats of the moment. And all you do is scream about feelings of others.

Trump, Miller and Bessent don't operate on emotion? They put aside slights and disrespects? Yeah..
They don't let slights drive their agenda like you do..

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dude. how much more has to happen for you to pause, reorient, and get back to reality?

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Drive agenda?

Reality check, it is a message board to discuss politics.

Also, " They don't let slights drive their agenda" - Trump? Miller? Well any shred of credibilty you had is shot...

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Miller is not elected. He's a policy advisor and a very good one.

Trump is actually very, very good at not letting slights drive the agenda. Yes, he attacks and counter-attacks his opponents harshly at times, but he will spin a a dime and cooperate with them once they get on board. Vance, Rubio, etc....his list of current allies and cabinet is full of people with whom he's had prior conflicts. His ability to NOT hold a grudge is one of his finer qualities. Most recent example? Elon Musk. Wanna play ball with Trump? All you have to do is be willing to play ball with Trump.

You don't like his style. I agree that it's different, certainly not traditionally presidential. Where we disagree is that I can see he's highly effective with it. You can't allow yourself to see it, because it undermines your emotions on the matter.

whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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Assassin said:

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whiterock said:

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we have unsustainable debt, unsustainable budget deficits, and politicians all across the spectrum unwilling to do anything to change it. Sounds a little 3rd worldish to me.

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At least Trump is trying all the other income sources than Taxing us to death. Tariffs are simply one way. I have no problem with US participation in private or public companies either. Biden and company got us into this mess without any look toward what the country needed

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agreed.

Tariffs are necessary to level the field in trade. EVERY ONE of our trade partners have engaged in unfair trade practices while we have been a de facto open market. That is unsustainable.

At. Some. Point. trade must balance.
It will not happen without tariffs to offset what trade partners do to promote their own exports.

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Trade must balance??? When has that ever happened in world history for a Superpower? Seriously? Rome have balanced trade? Britain had balanced trade? I cannot think of one. Either you manufacture, you conquer, or you become a finance center. Now, add data to it. But, you could say that data is manufacturing, you are creating.

Seriously, please show us ANY Nation of the US size that maintained a trade balance?

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I would counsel you not to adopt RW2's faulty assumption on size.
"Size" matters very little with respect to trade balance.
https://www.worldstopexports.com/report-card-for-trade-surpluses-and-deficits-by-country/

you are not alone in having a very poor understanding of basic economics of trade:
If the trade account doesn't balance, then you must have a surplus in the capital account to offset it. If you run trade deficits offset by capital account surpluses, your GDP tends to transform from making goods (which pays higher wages) to performing services (which pays lower wages). If you allow that dynamic to become structural, your ability to produce goods withers away. It is insanity for a country with our endowments of people and resources to do such..... to chose a long-term model of selling equity in assets to cover losses in trade. Over time, increasing percentages of the wealth your economy generates gets sent back abroad (repatriation of profits) and the finance account surpluses get harder and harder to generate. We are already seeing that dynamic on demand for US treasury bills. How much further down the hole do you propose to go?

Every class....every professor.....every real world example......"export-led growth is the only sustainable growth." Yes, that is a tenet of theory. Yes, countries pursuing it often make policy choices which have enormous trade offs (waste the profits of the trade). But there is a reason why every country in the world tries its damnedest to export as much as it can, to include crafting a lot of economic policy to subsidize exports. A trade surplus is a good thing (and preferable to a trade deficit) !!!

Again, remember the GDP equation: C + I + G + T = GDP
Please explain how we are better off when "T" is a negative number rather than a positive number.

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Please explain how we are better off when "T" is a negative number rather than a positive number.


The "T" is a negative because so much has moved to services.
Cause/effect error. The transition toward a service oriented economy is CAUSED by trade deficits.
The "T" is a bad thing when combined with Budget deficits.
Wrong. Trade deficits create surplus dollars held by trade partners, which they in part use to purchase T-bills (allowing us to more easily finance fiscal deficits). That is one of the reasons the structural trade deficit model is so hard to dump - A TRADE DEFICIT MAKES IT EASIER TO FINANCE FISCAL DEFICITS.....they create an outlet for surplus trade dollars. I mean, that is all "drawn on the chalkboard in class" stuff.
We all agree on that. Tariffs do not solve the underlying issue of overspending, only Congress can do that. It also looks like overspending is not going to stop regardless of who is in office. This an issue with service based economies.
Tariffs, if successful, will create trade balance or surplus, which will make it HARDER to finance budget deficits, since surplus dollars are no longer stacking up in trade partner countries. That will force us to look to traditional finance markets, which of course means the USG will be competing with the private sector for capital. Fortunately.....we have $17T in foreign capital coming into the country to finance production operations. that gives us a window to rapidly contract federal spending without torpedoing GDP, and head off the capital crowd out.

So, what to do? What I don't understand is why we don't get foreign investment out of Treasuries (see above) and into some type of investment fund (like his trade deal investments), not just paying them.
In other words, that's EXACTLY what Trump has done.

We are not going to go back and out manufacture China in consumer goods.
Agreed. Nor should that be an overriding imperative. Trade deficit is only 3% of GDP. We move 20 percentage points of our supply chains back inside the USA, we have fixed the trade deficit problem (an the tariffs should accomplish that) irrespective of whatever happens on the trade deal investments. We don't need to make toasters to restore our power. We need to make steel, to build ships and to lead the AI race.
We have to play to our strengths, not yearn for yesteryear and use tariffs as a trade policy when fiscal policy is the culprit. I like what Norway did, they have a Wealth Fund for foreign investment.
Indeed. But we will need to reduce a lot of debt before a Wealth Fund makes sense, unless......perhaps the digital currency might lead the way on that, or the equity positions we've taken with key companies in strategic industries.

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Trump's plan is starting to take shape, and early results are positive. Good GDP, Sept trade surplus..... The numbers will fluctuate going forward, but should be on an upward trend and things should be starting to roll by Q2 next year.

Eventually, you will see it.

One big complication? Mamdani's likely election in NY. if he does what he's promising to do, it's going to hamper the NY economy, which is a larger component of national GDP. NY economy gets a cold, the National GDP might get the sniffles

---

You are so full of BS. You are seeing a short term reaction because they got caught by surprise. They will cut an initial deal because there are no options right now. NOBODY likes to be browbeat into submission, "they have no choice" is the absolutely WORST position to negotiate. Because humans will pay you lip service, while working on alternatives to not have to bend a knee to someone like Trump. I guarentee while you bask in your Hubris that we have them over a barrel. They are directing their people to GET US OUT OF THIS POSITION.
The world works on power, not emotion. They want into our markets, they meet our terms or they will lose their market share to someone else who will. And they won't cheat much, because they know this admin will hold them accountable. Ok, except for China. China, like all authoritarian powers, cheats as a business model. Another reason for winding down our trade relationship with them as expeditiously as is practical. Japan should be quite angry with us over the trade deal you say we forced upon them. In reality, they're so angry that they added a raw earth trade deal to the mix and gave former PM Abe's golf clubs to Pres. Trump as a gesture of goodwill.

Watch, you will see new trade agreements, without the US. Or worse, put us in a position like China threatened already with rare earths. Are you really this short sighted? Nah, you just drank the kool aid.

---

You're thrashing about wildly, because you're now in the cul-de-sac. You were wrong about all aspects of the trade policy, for reasons mostly disconnected from economics. Trump's trade policy is textbook good policy. It's impact is already perceptible, and it will grow stronger over the next 24-36 months. If the goal is to win the AI race against China and lead the world into a bold new age of technology, the start is looking quite promising. The resulting automation revolution will have a wide range of positive impacts on our manufacturing sector, improving our competitive edge in trade.

Quit railing against reality. Watch & learn. Tariffs are not the spawn of Satan. They are the tool of last resort against unfair trade practices. Reticence to use them tends to embolden trade partners to cheat more early and more often. Reagan used them to fight unfair Japanese trade policies. All those Japanese auto maker plants here in the USA? You can thank Reagan's tariffs for them.

---

Quit the editorials and I will too. "Thrashing about wildly" You are so full of it.
You haven't been right about much this year. You said we'd get no deals, and we got great deals. You said things would get worse, yet. the priority things in distress have marginally improved. Quit thrashing around wildly and you'll see it.

You really believe that emotion doesn't play into power? You really believe that people that reach those levels don't remember slights? In Asia? In Europe?
Most people wise enough to get elected to leadership of a country don't let emotion drive their thinking. They understand power dynamics. They understand that its wise to not dwell on a slight and move on to getting business done.
Who is trashing about wildly praying this tariff scheme doesn't blow up in our faces? Your level of Hubris is really incredible.
I'm not wildly praying about anything. I cited mainstream economic theory, textbooks, actual experience, real world outcomes in the past, etc..... And I've cited the stats of the moment. And all you do is scream about feelings of others.

Trump, Miller and Bessent don't operate on emotion? They put aside slights and disrespects? Yeah..
They don't let slights drive their agenda like you do..

---

dude. how much more has to happen for you to pause, reorient, and get back to reality?

---

Drive agenda?

Reality check, it is a message board to discuss politics.

Also, " They don't let slights drive their agenda" - Trump? Miller? Well any shred of credibilty you had is shot...

---

Miller is not elected. He's a policy advisor and a very good one.

Trump is actually very, very good at not letting slights drive the agenda. Yes, he attacks and counter-attacks his opponents harshly at times, but he will spin a a dime and cooperate with them once they get on board. Vance, Rubio, etc....his list of current allies and cabinet is full of people with whom he's had prior conflicts. His ability to NOT hold a grudge is one of his finer qualities. Most recent example? Elon Musk. Wanna play ball with Trump? All you have to do is be willing to play ball with Trump.

You don't like his style. I agree that it's different, certainly not traditionally presidential. Where we disagree is that I can see he's highly effective with it. You can't allow yourself to see it, because it undermines your emotions on the matter.

---

We are at an impasse. You clearly are in line with whatever they want to do and do not tolerate questions. Got it.

Japan, convinced that its insult of giving a set of used golf clubs (former PM Abe's) to Trump was not enough to convey how insulted it was to have renegotiate trade agreements, decided to double down with the ultimate gesture of incandescent anger.

Japanese Prime Minister Takaichi is donating 250 cherry trees to President Trump for Washington, D.C. pic.twitter.com/sWxJSq4Sbg

— Breaking911 (@Breaking911) October 28, 2025