When you've lived through multiple market crashes, Y2K, 2012, govt induced pandemics, wars and proxy wars but now everyone's worried about some tariffs-- pic.twitter.com/OkQUs3crfQ
— ₩₳Ɽ ₱₳₮Ⱨ (@WarPath2pt0) April 4, 2025
April 2nd Reciprocal Tariffs
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3836 Replies |
Last: 22 hrs ago by Adriacus Peratuun
ATL Bear said:
It's always interesting when someone starts by saying "you make valid points" and then proceeds to paint those same points as part of a morally bankrupt conspiracy.
Globalists sure love throwing the conspiracy label at everyone who disagrees with them. Want to throw in the Nazi and Fascist labels for good measure?
Let's clear the fog.
You're swinging wildly between metaphors about cars with no chassis and baskets full of eggs, but the real issue is that you're not offering a coherent alternative, just a grab-bag of grievances and a call to tariffs as if they're a Swiss army knife for all economic sins.
Coherent Alternative: use tariffs to punish countries who use tariffs to gain advantage over our industries. Use tariffs to level the playing field in core industries. You act as if responsive behavior is wildly outlandish. Hiding our heads in the sand is the outlandish.
Tariffs are simply one aspect of a massive global realignment. Stop subsidizing other countries defense. Stop subsiding other countries economies. Use that money to reduce taxes, reduce debt, and smartly rebuild key industries. Rebuild infrastructure that is decades out of date.
Healthy broad based growth is not anathema to growth.
Yes, the U.S. needs to scale back outdated regulations. Yes, we need to reform education and workforce training. I've said exactly that. But none of those facts magically make broad-based tariffs a smart or effective policy response. Tariffs aren't a stand in for industrial policy, nor do they replace the hard work of investing in domestic competitiveness. They're a blunt instrument, and they come with blunt consequences, higher prices, global retaliation, and supply chain disruption that doesn't build resilience, it undermines it.
Every country uses tariffs without issues but once the USA does the same the sky is falling?
I thought your "one-trick pony" comment was a joke at first until I realized just how much you lack a fundamental understanding of the U.S. economy. The U.S. is not a single-engine service economy, it's a global leader in high tech manufacturing, aerospace, biotech, agri-business, finance, energy, and digital infrastructure. You talk about resilience and diversification as if the U.S. has none, while standing on the shoulders of the most diversified and dynamic economy in the world. What country has a broader base of globally competitive sectors? Spoiler: none.
You white knight for new free trade economy and point to farming and energy? LOL
You ask what happens when the world stops "paying for the U.S. service economy"? Simple: it doesn't. The U.S. isn't leeching off the world. It provides the world's reserve currency, the largest consumer base, technological leadership, capital markets, global defense architecture, and innovation capacity. That's why our partners sell here, why capital flows here, and why Trump has any leverage to negotiate tariffs at all. You're complaining about the system while standing on its foundation.
Every day the world plots to break free from the USA service economy. From BRIC onward. The USA's rise to global economic power is due to size, due to being the only world power whose industrial base wasn't decimated by WW2, and due to being the world's biggest bread basket. Everything you listed is a result of the foregoing not created on its own. We were bigger, had better natural assets, and got a huge head start after WW2. And we lost much of it by being naive. "If we simply trade nice so will everyone else." History says: false. "A good referee like the WTO will make everything better." History says False. But the best part is your argument that the USA's economic roof is instead its foundation. False. Ultimately farming and ranching is our foundation. The ability to feed our own people independently and have huge amounts to ship overseas is our single greatest asset. Why do you think China covets our farm land? No food and none of your financial sector matters. No food and none of your high tech IP matters.
As for your moral turn, accusing me of profiting off others' misery and asking for my address to send me a bill couldn't be more ironic given my companies are net exporters and bring millions back the U.S. each year. Maybe I should send you a bill for carrying your ass. You want tariffs to punish cheaters, rebuild domestic industry, reduce inequality, level the playing field, and realign global power. But you haven't explained how any of that works in practice, only that you're angry, and someone must pay. It's also driven by a blind loyalty to a candidate and the narratives not facts of the decisions he's made. It's okay to admit he's making mistakes.
Here is some truth. You hate tariffs because they might impact your export business. Simply be forthright enough to admit that you are a free trade winner. Fair trade might drop your numbers. Somehow most countries in the world protect industries from predatory practices and the world economy doesn't crash but if the USA does similar it is disaster [per you].
In practice: France tariffs our farmers, we tariff their wine industry. Germany tariffs Boeing, we tariff Mercedes and Audi. You act as though using platitudes when other countries use tariffs is effective and sound practice. History laughs at you.
And let's not romanticize those "2 out of 3 offshored industries" you say could return if we just removed "government millstones." Even if they could operate competitively, that doesn't mean they would be labor intensive, or employ workers in the numbers or at the wages you imagine. Manufacturing has changed. And your answer "bring it back anyway" amounts to raising prices on every American household to chase a fantasy that doesn't scale, not to mention structural limitations even if we thought we could. That's being extremely naive and destructive.
You first argued that manufacturing is too labor extensive and thus too expensive in the USA and now argue that it is less labor intensive and few jobs will be realized? Which is it? And the argument that "we can only recover some of the jobs lost so why bother" is very telling.
So yes, the world cheats. Yes, countries subsidize and manipulate. But the response isn't economic self harm against EVERYONE, It's enforceable trade rules, coalition-building, direct negotiation, modern industrial policy, and investment in the tools that make us competitive, not just punitive taxes that we pretend are a strategy.
Because the WTO has been such a huge success for the USA?
I'm giving you strategies to bring manufacturing back, as well as long term economic opportunities. You're throwing narrative poo against the wall and blaming the dog. But if the best you've got is "tariffs because the world sucks," then what you're offering isn't policy. It's just resentment.
your narrative: continue doing what hasn't "real world" worked in decades. But you love the theory. All the current economic success to which you point is the interest on post WW2 income. No part of the modern economy arose in isolation. If we don't preserve and invigorate the basics, the advanced will eventually fail.
Food, water, energy, medical, & core manufacturing allow everything else to thrive.
JUST IN: 🇺🇸 President Trump says "this is an economic revolution and we will win… the end result will be historic."
— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) April 5, 2025
Labor Secretary Lori Chavez-DeRemer says Trump wants to onshore garment factories from Vietnam and Cambodia to the United States pic.twitter.com/qwMktPCMxK
— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) April 4, 2025
He is exactly correct. We were in a bubble and we burst it before it could burst itself.
— Phil (@Phil6741400) April 5, 2025
Who on earth wouldn’t choose to have control of a disaster before it occurs?
He doesn’t miss pic.twitter.com/HIBM7WfpML
— @jason (@Jason) April 5, 2025
JUST IN: Canada says it agreed to strengthen the diverse trade relationship between Canada and Germany, in response to Trump's tariffs.
— unusual_whales (@unusual_whales) April 3, 2025
Mexico says it will sign and maintain trade agreement with EU, in response to the tariffs.
This 👇 pic.twitter.com/wJQ0pRWkYp
— Karli Bonne’ 🇺🇸 (@KarluskaP) April 4, 2025
Mothra said:Don't know the answer, but this isn't going to come close to working. All it will do is make China stronger.Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:And are they going to be worth the economic hurt consumers experience in the interim? Very likely, no.Adriacus Peratuun said:Disagree. Some behavior will immediately change. Easy deals will get finalized. Future work will get papered [enforceable].Mothra said:Sideline themselves? Of course not. They will simply pass along most of the cost of the tariffs to the American consumer, which is of course what always happens. Just like the dealerships I described above.Adriacus Peratuun said:The entire dispute will be done within 3-4 months.Mothra said:No they won't.Redbrickbear said:Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:Great Scott. Tariffs are a tax on you. When Trump puts a 25% tariff on foreign cars, you will pay the difference. Tariffs are an attempt to force you to buy an American made car.ScottS said:I don't see Congress getting rid of income taxes. Get back to me when they do.boognish_bear said:ScottS said:...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.boognish_bear said:JUST IN: 🇺🇸 JPMorgan says President Trump's tariffs are the largest US tax hike since 1968.
— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) April 3, 2025
Trump said the tariff money can be used to help eliminate income taxes. So everyone buying American wouldn't help that out...
No, the foreign manufacturer will
They will cut costs and sell the car at a cheap enough price point to be competitive in the US market
Or they will move production of said car to the USA to avoid the tariff....thus creating jobs in the USA
I already have Honda and Toyota dealers that have marked up prices on the vehicles that have arrived since yesterday a full 10%. The idea that foreign manufacturers are going to slash prices is extremely naive.
It will take 5 years to set up manufacturing here. These countries will wait it out the next 2 years, and then when Trump loses congress and these stupid tariffs are overturned, will reclaim their market share.
No global business is going to effectively sideline itself in the USA for two years.
Once the pain level is fully understood, deals will be made.
Foreign business/countries might hate USA tariffs, but they hate uncertainty even more.
And of course it will be easy for the manufacturers to "promise" Trump they will rebuild their factories in Detroit, telling him what he wants to hear, while simply reneging on the deal when he loses Congress in two years or is gone in 4.
Example: possible BMW
Immediate: radically change marketing to heavily emphasize all X series [made in Spartanburg].
Easy: begin process to move 2 series production from San Luis Potos plant in Mexico to USA. the 3 production there remains.
Future: deal to manufacture some inline 4 engines in USA, leave the inline 6 production entirely in Germany.
There is zero chance that Japan sits down to negotiate with USA and Germany remains outside shaking their fist. No major player is going to let the basic parameters of future deals be struck while they protest outside.
Free Trade purists might behave like Greta Thunberg, countries will not.
What do you suggest we do....nothing?
Keep doing what we have been doing for decades?
Outsourcing jobs, importing 3rd world immigrants, making China a world power....helping fuel a very possible pre-revolutionary political situation inside the USA?
You realize of course that serious Professors are saying the USA is flashing red on potential Civil War, violent upheaval, or political revolution right...
What we have been doing can not go on forever...it just can't...and it won't
[A recent Washington Post headline says: "In America, talk turns to something not spoken of for 150 years: Civil war." The story references, among others, Stanford University historian Victor Davis Hanson, who asked in a National Review essay last summer: "How, when, and why has the United States now arrived at the brink of a veritable civil war?" Another Washington Post story reports how Iowa Congressman...recently posted a meme warning that red states have "8 trillion bullets" in the event of a civil war. And a poll conducted last June by Rasmussen Reports found that 31 percent of probable US voters surveyed believe "it's likely that the United States will experience a second civil war sometime in the next five years."]
[Our nation is in civic crisis. On one hand, Americans report historically low levels of trust in institutions and offices of government. On the other, they exaggerate the power of such institutions and offices, demanding that the U.S. president end the Israel-Hamas war in Gaza, for instance, or work harder to stop inflation. As the 2024 election approaches, some lament the travesty of a democracy reduced to a choice between bad and worse; others view the prospect of their chosen candidates' losing as they might the prospect of a foreign invasion or zombie apocalypse.
Americans are losing hope: specifically, that distinctive, civic hope that their own choices and actions can meaningfully and positively shape their communities' futures. In the face of such hopelessness, we recall the words attributed to the late Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter: "In a democracy, the highest office is the office of citizen."
The outcomes of the 2024 elections are hardly irrelevant to such fears; they have rarely mattered more. But whatever returns in November, the return of civic hope, and with it, the future of our democracy...
The last 40 years of American politics illustrates the problem....] -Time Magazine
Well, it will make China a viable alternative to the US market. This is pumping the Belt and Road program full of steroids.
The manner, speed and disposition that Trump is doing this is a big part of the issue, for citizens and allies.
The usual suspects mocked Ross Perot for telling the truth.
— Battle Beagle (@HarmlessYardDog) April 4, 2025
RIP Ross
pic.twitter.com/2vqVzECOZg
A big company CEO - “We tried to explain to the administration that it takes 2 - 3 years to shift production domestically and that we would need to know the tariffs go for much longer than that to even start and they ignored us. So we are just going to cut spending.”
— Andrew Yang🧢⬆️🇺🇸 (@AndrewYang) April 5, 2025
U.S. customs agents have started collecting the 10% tariffs on imports pic.twitter.com/9tgEeIANPa
— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) April 5, 2025
FLBear5630 said:Mothra said:Don't know the answer, but this isn't going to come close to working. All it will do is make China stronger.Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:And are they going to be worth the economic hurt consumers experience in the interim? Very likely, no.Adriacus Peratuun said:Disagree. Some behavior will immediately change. Easy deals will get finalized. Future work will get papered [enforceable].Mothra said:Sideline themselves? Of course not. They will simply pass along most of the cost of the tariffs to the American consumer, which is of course what always happens. Just like the dealerships I described above.Adriacus Peratuun said:The entire dispute will be done within 3-4 months.Mothra said:No they won't.Redbrickbear said:Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:Great Scott. Tariffs are a tax on you. When Trump puts a 25% tariff on foreign cars, you will pay the difference. Tariffs are an attempt to force you to buy an American made car.ScottS said:I don't see Congress getting rid of income taxes. Get back to me when they do.boognish_bear said:ScottS said:...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.boognish_bear said:JUST IN: 🇺🇸 JPMorgan says President Trump's tariffs are the largest US tax hike since 1968.
— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) April 3, 2025
Trump said the tariff money can be used to help eliminate income taxes. So everyone buying American wouldn't help that out...
No, the foreign manufacturer will
They will cut costs and sell the car at a cheap enough price point to be competitive in the US market
Or they will move production of said car to the USA to avoid the tariff....thus creating jobs in the USA
I already have Honda and Toyota dealers that have marked up prices on the vehicles that have arrived since yesterday a full 10%. The idea that foreign manufacturers are going to slash prices is extremely naive.
It will take 5 years to set up manufacturing here. These countries will wait it out the next 2 years, and then when Trump loses congress and these stupid tariffs are overturned, will reclaim their market share.
No global business is going to effectively sideline itself in the USA for two years.
Once the pain level is fully understood, deals will be made.
Foreign business/countries might hate USA tariffs, but they hate uncertainty even more.
And of course it will be easy for the manufacturers to "promise" Trump they will rebuild their factories in Detroit, telling him what he wants to hear, while simply reneging on the deal when he loses Congress in two years or is gone in 4.
Example: possible BMW
Immediate: radically change marketing to heavily emphasize all X series [made in Spartanburg].
Easy: begin process to move 2 series production from San Luis Potos plant in Mexico to USA. the 3 production there remains.
Future: deal to manufacture some inline 4 engines in USA, leave the inline 6 production entirely in Germany.
There is zero chance that Japan sits down to negotiate with USA and Germany remains outside shaking their fist. No major player is going to let the basic parameters of future deals be struck while they protest outside.
Free Trade purists might behave like Greta Thunberg, countries will not.
What do you suggest we do....nothing?
Keep doing what we have been doing for decades?
Outsourcing jobs, importing 3rd world immigrants, making China a world power....helping fuel a very possible pre-revolutionary political situation inside the USA?
You realize of course that serious Professors are saying the USA is flashing red on potential Civil War, violent upheaval, or political revolution right...
What we have been doing can not go on forever...it just can't...and it won't
[A recent Washington Post headline says: "In America, talk turns to something not spoken of for 150 years: Civil war." The story references, among others, Stanford University historian Victor Davis Hanson, who asked in a National Review essay last summer: "How, when, and why has the United States now arrived at the brink of a veritable civil war?" Another Washington Post story reports how Iowa Congressman...recently posted a meme warning that red states have "8 trillion bullets" in the event of a civil war. And a poll conducted last June by Rasmussen Reports found that 31 percent of probable US voters surveyed believe "it's likely that the United States will experience a second civil war sometime in the next five years."]
[Our nation is in civic crisis. On one hand, Americans report historically low levels of trust in institutions and offices of government. On the other, they exaggerate the power of such institutions and offices, demanding that the U.S. president end the Israel-Hamas war in Gaza, for instance, or work harder to stop inflation. As the 2024 election approaches, some lament the travesty of a democracy reduced to a choice between bad and worse; others view the prospect of their chosen candidates' losing as they might the prospect of a foreign invasion or zombie apocalypse.
Americans are losing hope: specifically, that distinctive, civic hope that their own choices and actions can meaningfully and positively shape their communities' futures. In the face of such hopelessness, we recall the words attributed to the late Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter: "In a democracy, the highest office is the office of citizen."
The outcomes of the 2024 elections are hardly irrelevant to such fears; they have rarely mattered more. But whatever returns in November, the return of civic hope, and with it, the future of our democracy...
The last 40 years of American politics illustrates the problem....] -Time Magazine
Well, it will make China a viable alternative to the US market. This is pumping the Belt and Road program full of steroids.
The manner, speed and disposition that Trump is doing this is a big part of the issue, for citizens and allies.
Bingo. Such a stupid policy.
Fre3dombear said:ATL Bear said:Now that we've reached the "you're all drama queens" portion of the debate, I'll take that as confirmation that the substance of my argument hit a little too close to home. But let's deal with what's left of your reply.Redbrickbear said:ATL Bear said:Adriacus Peratuun said:You are basically making the same arguments that have been made for 30 years and have proven to be erroneous in practice. Real world trumps [pun intended] theoretical economics.ATL Bear said:These questions rely heavily on simplified assumptions (political narratives), false binaries, and an outdated understanding of how manufacturing fits into a modern economy.Adriacus Peratuun said:Questions:ATL Bear said:
Low skill manufacturing isn't coming back. And even if it did it would be low wage work and serve no economic purpose other than higher prices and increased worker risk for low pay. That was the preponderance of the oft sighted 60,000 - 90,000 factory loss (heck of a range there BTW).
Bringing manufacturing back is a capital not labor exercise, and the type of manufacturing we need is not only skilled labor, but highly skilled labor which is not only in short supply, but requires a reorientation of our education and training matrix domestically to address the short and long term lack of resources. That's before we even address the scale required to mass produce like our global competitors, the deregulation required to even contemplate it, and the supply chains necessary to execute.
Manufacturing employment beyond engineering, IT, and specialty technicians is on the bullet train of obsolescence. Why we would go to war with the world economically to try and protect it is beyond me. Don't protect, create and innovate. That's what always made us better.
1) for people whose basic skill set aligns with manufacturing work and not "create & innovate", what exactly are they to do for employment?
2) if the USA can cost effectively run automotive assembly plants, why can't it also run automotive component manufacturing? HVAC manufacturing [easily brought back]? Similar?
3) is the USA's national defense better by destroying the manufacturing base?
4) why did the USA create an economic environment that lead to offshoring tech manufacturing?
5) how many items do you own that are created by basic manufacturing skills? Cars, HVAC, appliances, etc.?
6) how many items do you that utilize tech manufacturing? Phones, cars, computers, pads, etc.
7) how often do you make phones calls, utilize the internet, etc.?
Throwing shade on manufacturing as part of a balanced economy is very 1990s.
1) For people whose basic skill set aligns with manufacturing work and not "create & innovate," what exactly are they to do for employment?
First I'd say make some effort to up-skill, but second with a long term unemployment rate of 3-5%, I'd say keep working as they are now. The myth of suffering is greatly overstated. Of course you're assuming manufacturing jobs are inherently accessible to the "basic skill set." That may have been true in 1955, but today's advanced manufacturing jobs require technical proficiency, digital fluency, and adaptive learning. The path forward isn't protecting jobs that no longer exist, it's expanding access to training, apprenticeships, and skilled trades that align with the demands of high-tech industry. Protecting obsolete roles keeps workers trapped in economic limbo. Empowering them through modern upskilling creates mobility.
2) If the USA can cost-effectively run automotive assembly plants, why can't it also run component manufacturing? HVAC manufacturing [easily brought back]? Similar?
Because assembly and component production are not the same thing. Assembly plants often benefit from logistics advantages, market proximity, and automation, making them viable in the U.S. Components, on the other hand, are part of a global, just-in-time supply chain with cost sensitive parts often manufactured at scale abroad. Simply asking "why not?" ignores economies of scale, labor intensity, material costs, regulatory burdens, and existing supplier networks. We can't rebuild the entire system by fiat.
3) Is the USA's national defense better by destroying the manufacturing base?
This is a straw man. No one is arguing for the destruction of the manufacturing base. The argument is to modernize it, invest in defense critical industries, dual use technologies, and resilient supply chains. Protecting commodity production like textiles or toaster ovens has nothing to do with national defense. Strategic reshoring of pharmaceuticals, semiconductors, and rare earths? Absolutely. But conflating that with blanket manufacturing protection is lazy geopolitics.
4) Why did the USA create an economic environment that led to offshoring tech manufacturing?
Because multinational corporations pursued profit and efficiency in a globalized system we helped architect. This wasn't some deep-state plot, it was the logical output of comparative advantage, currency dynamics, foreign labor markets, and demand for lower consumer prices. The solution isn't isolationism, it's building a domestic ecosystem that's attractive to high-end production, which includes stable policy, workforce investment, deregulation, and competitive tax and infrastructure systems.
5) How many items do you own that are created by basic manufacturing skills? Cars, HVAC, appliances, etc.?
Plenty. But owning them doesn't mean they need to be made here, or that we benefit from doing so. Global specialization allows the U.S. to lead in innovation while importing goods that are lower margin and labor intensive. There's a difference between using a product and needing to produce it locally. It's called economic efficiency, and it's a feature, not a flaw.
6) How many items do you own that utilize tech manufacturing? Phones, cars, computers, pads, etc.?
All of them, and this actually supports my point. These are the types of manufacturing that are capital-intensive, IP driven, and require high-skill labor, the very sectors we should be focused on strengthening. Trying to preserve low wage, low skill production to satisfy a nostalgic vision of factory floors doesn't move us forward. Investing in these tech heavy industries, supply chain resilience, and workforce capability does.
7) How often do you make phone calls, utilize the internet, etc.?
Constantly, which proves my point. Our economy is increasingly digital, decentralized, and service oriented. That doesn't mean we don't need manufacturing, but it means we need the right kind of manufacturing, embedded in future facing industries, not revived mid-century models. BTW, China's economy has been maturing in this direction as well. Less manufacturing employment and greater service orientation.
As for your "1990s" jab, if anything's outdated, it's the belief that manufacturing = national greatness and that trade protectionism can reverse 40 years of structural, capital, and technological change. The real danger is not moving forward and doubling down on a vision of the past that no longer maps to economic reality. Making the working and middle class pay for that folly through tariffs is downright 1890's.
How many decades of a failing imbalanced economy are necessary for you to admit the error?
Or it simply, "I am a winner in the new economy, screw those other folks. Let them eat cake."?
Your arguments are similar to defense spending choices that focused on big ticket projects and left the USA vulnerable to the uglies of real world conflicts.
As an aside, you are arguing against economic choices that pick winners while ignoring the fact that prior choices created the current winner & loser lists.
It doesn't take much time in the Rust Belt v. SFO/Austin to see the real world impact on people who lives were upended v. the lives of the people throne on the trash heap.
Before pretending moral superiority, send some time in Akron, Dayton, Scranton, etc.
And if pure Free Trade is the answer, why aren't we 30 years into bliss by this point?
Hint: pure free trade will never work when 99% of the players are cheating.
The answer to decades of disinvestment and regional inequality isn't to light the global economy on fire and hope the smoke turns into jobs. The answer is to invest in the future, not resurrect the past. That means building modern infrastructure, upskilling workers, deregulating, decentralizing innovation, and yes, competing and aligning globally, not retreating behind tariffs and pretending we're doing something brave.
If your best pitch is "it hasn't worked in 30 years,"
Talk about "emotional appeals"
You guys are such drama queens....far more than those on our side pointing out the costs to America and its civic and social society
A market correction is not the end of the world.
And as your long post states...the US elite have not in fact invested in modern infrastructure, upskilling workers, fighting useless regulations, decentralizing in invocation, or making our bloated and wealthy universities anything but progressive day care centers for social engineering
You could have saved everyone time and just said....."I don't want Trump to change anything...lets keep printing trillions of dollars and running up humongous trade deficits"
You realize that is the straight path to either some kind of revolution at home or collapse abroad right?
What can not go on forever....will not go on forever
Yes, a market correction isn't the end of the world. But policy-induced corrections built on short term political theater and incoherent trade wars? That's not just a "correction." That's self-inflicted damage under the guise of populist heroism. If you're going to champion tariffs, at least own the fact that they raise prices, strain global supply chains, and put American consumers on the hook. Don't pretend it's some brave and harmless course adjustment.
You point out that the U.S. elite haven't invested in infrastructure, workforce training, or deregulation. Correct. That's the actual failure. And it isn't just elites, Americans have to take control of their destiny, and too many fell into apathetic approaches to their opportunities. It's lost us the American work ethic moniker. But what's your solution? Tariffs? Higher prices? A trade war with allies and adversaries alike? That's not reform, it's a tantrum. If your diagnosis is that elites abandoned working class America, the prescription should be rebuilding institutions, retooling education, and investing in growth sectors, not throwing up economic walls and praying for the past to come back.
And the idea that I'm defending "printing trillions of dollars and running up massive trade deficits" is just a lazy caricature and a misrepresentation of anything I've said. Trade deficits are a symptom, not a cause. They're driven by low national savings, high global demand for dollar denominated assets, and consumption based economic strength. If you're concerned about long term imbalances, fine. But pretending tariffs will correct a macroeconomic equation without touching savings rates, fiscal policy, or capital flows is, frankly, economic. And that doesn't even touch on the tectonic shift we'd need to bring back some of the strategic raw material production.
Your closing line, "what can't go on forever, won't", is meaningless if it's used to justify anything and everything in the name of "change." Change isn't automatically good just because it's change. Smart reform is what matters. You want to avoid collapse? Great, so do I. That's why I'm advocating for long-term, structural solutions grounded in actual economic data and implementation strategy, not a campaign stunt that masquerades as policy.
If you're serious about fixing what's broken, then let's have a real conversation about the tools that work. Otherwise, this isn't a strategy. It's a vibe.
I think most y'all haven't had a clue how the stock market was where it was and why.
So much irony here given the fact that you guys supporting these tariffs, apparently slept through your high school economics class. I mean your position is so utterly ridiculous and absurd. It's laughable.
When Republican singers and conservative economist are coming out saying this is a really bad idea, you psychophants should take notice.
Tom Lee said during my interview with him
— Evan (@StockMKTNewz) April 4, 2025
For every 10 basis points that the 10 year yield drops the United States 🇺🇸 debt service drops by roughly $36 Billion pic.twitter.com/3OS7eP0wz9
Redbrickbear said:The usual suspects mocked Ross Perot for telling the truth.
— Battle Beagle (@HarmlessYardDog) April 4, 2025
RIP Ross
pic.twitter.com/2vqVzECOZg
Ross would have made a great president .
BREAKING: Senator Ted Cruz, a well known Trump supporter, speaks out against tariffs, says they could cause a "bloodbath" for Republicans in next year's midterm elections. pic.twitter.com/RQAC2jw1qf
— The Kobeissi Letter (@KobeissiLetter) April 4, 2025
Redbrickbear said:When you've lived through multiple market crashes, Y2K, 2012, govt induced pandemics, wars and proxy wars but now everyone's worried about some tariffs-- pic.twitter.com/OkQUs3crfQ
— ₩₳Ɽ ₱₳₮Ⱨ (@WarPath2pt0) April 4, 2025
This is such a dumb post. I know you like to keep down playing this suggesting it's not going to be as bad as predicted. The truth is you have no clue and neither do I. And the difference between this and some of the other things you've referenced is this is a self-inflicted wound.
This is 100% accurate… pic.twitter.com/iNQGLEkqKn
— David Santa Carla 🦇 (@TheOnlyDSC) April 4, 2025
Mothra said:Redbrickbear said:When you've lived through multiple market crashes, Y2K, 2012, govt induced pandemics, wars and proxy wars but now everyone's worried about some tariffs-- pic.twitter.com/OkQUs3crfQ
— ₩₳Ɽ ₱₳₮Ⱨ (@WarPath2pt0) April 4, 2025
This is such a dumb post. I know you like to keep down playing this suggesting it's not going to be as bad as predicted. The truth is you have no clue and neither do I. And the difference between this and some of the other things you've referenced is this is a self-inflicted wound.
https://babylonbee.com/news/is-it-too-late-to-ask-what-a-tariff-is-trump-whispers-to-jd-vance
Mothra said:Redbrickbear said:When you've lived through multiple market crashes, Y2K, 2012, govt induced pandemics, wars and proxy wars but now everyone's worried about some tariffs-- pic.twitter.com/OkQUs3crfQ
— ₩₳Ɽ ₱₳₮Ⱨ (@WarPath2pt0) April 4, 2025
This is such a dumb post….
No, it's just a joke post
Just like this one:
JUST IN: 🇰🇭🇺🇸 Cambodia to cut tariffs on select US imports to 5%, down from 35%.
— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) April 4, 2025
The President won his second round matchup of the Senior Club Championship today in Jupiter, FL, and advances to the Championship Round tomorrow. -WH
— Steve Holland (@steveholland1) April 5, 2025
I have confidence/faith this revolutionary strategy will ultimately succeed long term, but my biggest concern is how long it will take for it to happen and whether or not voters will be willing to wait it out. Everyone can rest assured if dims retake power over the course of the '26 and '28 elections we will immediately return to the endlessly printing money plus increasing the debt like there's no tomorrow strategy and we will be right back to mortgaging future generations while on an inevitable path to national bankruptcy. Hoping and praying the inevitable long term benefit of Trump's strategy - if given the time to succeed - will at least be starting to be felt by the masses before they turn back to the people that got us into the incredible mess in the first place.
This is the problem. Even if Trump achieves his goal of removing all tariffs (something I am cool with), if the end game is to return manufacturing to the US, that's just never going to happen within the next 2 years. It's why most manufacturing interest groups have come down hard against the tariffs. It will take at least 5 years and huge capital investments to achieve that goal. And that will of course result in much more expensive products, as not only will capital be required, but you will also be paying the American worker with his union dues a LOT more money than some dude in Vietnam.Johnny Bear said:
I have confidence/faith this revolutionary strategy will ultimately succeed long term, but my biggest concern is how long it will take for it to happen and whether or not voters will be willing to wait it out. Everyone can rest assured if dims retake power over the course of the '26 and '28 elections we will immediately return to the endlessly printing money plus increasing the debt like there's no tomorrow strategy and we will be right back to mortgaging future generations while on an inevitable path to national bankruptcy. Hoping and praying the inevitable long term benefit of Trump's strategy - if given the time to succeed - will at least be starting to be felt by the masses before they turn back to the people that got us into the incredible mess in the first place.
The end result is the American people are going to feel the hurt for some time, and the surest fire way to lose the midterms is to hurt Americans in the pocketbook. So whatever Trump's plan is, he better damn sure be both quick and right. Otherwise, he is going to lose both the House and the Senate, and have his agenda completely derailed.
Mothra said:This is the problem. Even if Trump achieves his goal of removing all tariffs (something I am cool with), if the end game is to return manufacturing to the US, that's just never going to happen within the next 2 years. It's why most manufacturing interest groups have come down hard against the tariffs. It will take at least 5 years and huge capital investments to achieve that goal. And that will of course result in much more expensive products, as not only will capital be required, but you will also be paying the American worker with his union dues a LOT more money than some dude in Vietnam..Johnny Bear said:
I have confidence/faith this revolutionary strategy will ultimately succeed long term, but my biggest concern is how long it will take for it to happen and whether or not voters will be willing to wait it out. Everyone can rest assured if dims retake power over the course of the '26 and '28 elections we will immediately return to the endlessly printing money plus increasing the debt like there's no tomorrow strategy and we will be right back to mortgaging future generations while on an inevitable path to national bankruptcy. Hoping and praying the inevitable long term benefit of Trump's strategy - if given the time to succeed - will at least be starting to be felt by the masses before they turn back to the people that got us into the incredible mess in the first place.
So what's the plan?
Just give up? Back to the unsustainable status quo?
We have tried it the other way for 40-50 years… and what we got was 50% of Americans living in debt, massive destruction of our manufacturing base and civil society, political tension (possible crisis), vulnerable supply chains stretched across the globe, the rise of Communist China as a peer competitor, a New Gilded Age of economic inequality…
But all is well in gated communities in bedroom burbs.Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:This is the problem. Even if Trump achieves his goal of removing all tariffs (something I am cool with), if the end game is to return manufacturing to the US, that's just never going to happen within the next 2 years. It's why most manufacturing interest groups have come down hard against the tariffs. It will take at least 5 years and huge capital investments to achieve that goal. And that will of course result in much more expensive products, as not only will capital be required, but you will also be paying the American worker with his union dues a LOT more money than some dude in Vietnam..Johnny Bear said:
I have confidence/faith this revolutionary strategy will ultimately succeed long term, but my biggest concern is how long it will take for it to happen and whether or not voters will be willing to wait it out. Everyone can rest assured if dims retake power over the course of the '26 and '28 elections we will immediately return to the endlessly printing money plus increasing the debt like there's no tomorrow strategy and we will be right back to mortgaging future generations while on an inevitable path to national bankruptcy. Hoping and praying the inevitable long term benefit of Trump's strategy - if given the time to succeed - will at least be starting to be felt by the masses before they turn back to the people that got us into the incredible mess in the first place.
So what's the plan?
Just give up? Back to the unsustainable status quo?
We have tried it the other way for 40-50 years… and what we got was 50% of Americans living in debt, massive destruction of our manufacturing base and civil society, political tension (possible crisis), vulnerable supply chains stretched across the globe, the rise or Communist China as a peer competitor, a New Gilded Age of economic inequality
Sometimes think some Baylor folks haven't driven through rural Texas or an inner city in a decade.
Sorry but that is a biased and dishonest post.Mothra said:This is the problem. Even if Trump achieves his goal of removing all tariffs (something I am cool with), if the end game is to return manufacturing to the US, that's just never going to happen within the next 2 years. It's why most manufacturing interest groups have come down hard against the tariffs. It will take at least 5 years and huge capital investments to achieve that goal. And that will of course result in much more expensive products, as not only will capital be required, but you will also be paying the American worker with his union dues a LOT more money than some dude in Vietnam.Johnny Bear said:
I have confidence/faith this revolutionary strategy will ultimately succeed long term, but my biggest concern is how long it will take for it to happen and whether or not voters will be willing to wait it out. Everyone can rest assured if dims retake power over the course of the '26 and '28 elections we will immediately return to the endlessly printing money plus increasing the debt like there's no tomorrow strategy and we will be right back to mortgaging future generations while on an inevitable path to national bankruptcy. Hoping and praying the inevitable long term benefit of Trump's strategy - if given the time to succeed - will at least be starting to be felt by the masses before they turn back to the people that got us into the incredible mess in the first place.
The end result is the American people are going to feel the hurt for some time, and the surest fire way to lose the midterms is to hurt Americans in the pocketbook. So whatever Trump's plan is, he better damn sure be both quick and right. Otherwise, he is going to lose both the House and the Senate, and have his agenda completely derailed.
The bottom line is not winning elections, but fixing the basic need to restore our manufacturing base. To do that, several things need to happen, and tariffs are just part of the process, although they need to happen early to be effective.
If you don't understand that point, there's no reason to waste my efforts explaining the rest of it. But two things Trump has learned, that are showing up in the current conditions, include the fact that Trump doesn't care about elections now that he doesn't have any he needs to win going forward (if you are one of those people who can't tell between Trump's trolling and his serious plans, just stop here and go find something with small words and lots of pictures, you won't be able to understand this post), and the framework has to be set up without depending on politicians buying into it. The GOP had everything needed to solve a lot of problems in 2017-18 but didn't want to take on any serious conditions, so only a fool would trust them to have a spine now.
God forbid it turns out that someone thinks about the underlying system, and is trying to go through some unavoidable short-term pain in order to avoid long-term bankruptcy.Adriacus Peratuun said:But all is well in gated communities in bedroom burbs.Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:This is the problem. Even if Trump achieves his goal of removing all tariffs (something I am cool with), if the end game is to return manufacturing to the US, that's just never going to happen within the next 2 years. It's why most manufacturing interest groups have come down hard against the tariffs. It will take at least 5 years and huge capital investments to achieve that goal. And that will of course result in much more expensive products, as not only will capital be required, but you will also be paying the American worker with his union dues a LOT more money than some dude in Vietnam..Johnny Bear said:
I have confidence/faith this revolutionary strategy will ultimately succeed long term, but my biggest concern is how long it will take for it to happen and whether or not voters will be willing to wait it out. Everyone can rest assured if dims retake power over the course of the '26 and '28 elections we will immediately return to the endlessly printing money plus increasing the debt like there's no tomorrow strategy and we will be right back to mortgaging future generations while on an inevitable path to national bankruptcy. Hoping and praying the inevitable long term benefit of Trump's strategy - if given the time to succeed - will at least be starting to be felt by the masses before they turn back to the people that got us into the incredible mess in the first place.
So what's the plan?
Just give up? Back to the unsustainable status quo?
We have tried it the other way for 40-50 years… and what we got was 50% of Americans living in debt, massive destruction of our manufacturing base and civil society, political tension (possible crisis), vulnerable supply chains stretched across the globe, the rise or Communist China as a peer competitor, a New Gilded Age of economic inequality
Sometimes think some Baylor folks haven't driven through rural Texas or an inner city in a decade.
Manufacturing is not coming back to any extent. Just very high touch prototype stuff. As Mothra eluded to, no large scale capital intensive manufacturing is coming here regardless what they tell trump and his ilk. They are playing the long game and biding their time till he gone! We are a service business now. Real time example is all the AI server farms used to power that are huge and costly. They are being put in Abilee ect, but those servers are build in Asia and Mexico due to cost. Simple.Oldbear83 said:Sorry but that is a biased and dishonest post.Mothra said:This is the problem. Even if Trump achieves his goal of removing all tariffs (something I am cool with), if the end game is to return manufacturing to the US, that's just never going to happen within the next 2 years. It's why most manufacturing interest groups have come down hard against the tariffs. It will take at least 5 years and huge capital investments to achieve that goal. And that will of course result in much more expensive products, as not only will capital be required, but you will also be paying the American worker with his union dues a LOT more money than some dude in Vietnam.Johnny Bear said:
I have confidence/faith this revolutionary strategy will ultimately succeed long term, but my biggest concern is how long it will take for it to happen and whether or not voters will be willing to wait it out. Everyone can rest assured if dims retake power over the course of the '26 and '28 elections we will immediately return to the endlessly printing money plus increasing the debt like there's no tomorrow strategy and we will be right back to mortgaging future generations while on an inevitable path to national bankruptcy. Hoping and praying the inevitable long term benefit of Trump's strategy - if given the time to succeed - will at least be starting to be felt by the masses before they turn back to the people that got us into the incredible mess in the first place.
The end result is the American people are going to feel the hurt for some time, and the surest fire way to lose the midterms is to hurt Americans in the pocketbook. So whatever Trump's plan is, he better damn sure be both quick and right. Otherwise, he is going to lose both the House and the Senate, and have his agenda completely derailed.
The bottom line is not winning elections, but fixing the basic need to restore our manufacturing base. To do that, several things need to happen, and tariffs are just part of the process, although they need to happen early to be effective.
If you don't understand that point, there's no reason to waste my efforts explaining the rest of it. But two things Trump has learned, that are showing up in the current conditions, include the fact that Trump doesn't care about elections now that he doesn't have any he needs to win going forward (if you are one of those people who can't tell between Trump's trolling and his serious plans, just stop here and go find something with small words and lots of pictures, you won't be able to understand this post), and the framework has to be set up without depending on politicians buying into it. The GOP had everything needed to solve a lot of problems in 2017-18 but didn't want to take on any serious conditions, so only a fool would trust them to have a spine now.
J.R."Manufacturing is not coming back to any extent."
BS.
Any type of business can exist if there is demand and opportunity.
The demand exists, it just takes our government caring more about American businesses than foreign lobbyists.
BS.
Any type of business can exist if there is demand and opportunity.
The demand exists, it just takes our government caring more about American businesses than foreign lobbyists.
False.J.R. said:Manufacturing is not coming back to any extent. Just very high touch prototype stuff. As Mothra eluded to, no large scale capital intensive manufacturing is coming here regardless what they tell trump and his ilk. They are playing the long game and biding their time till he gone! We are a service business now. Real time example is all the AI server farms used to power that are huge and costly. They are being put in Abilee ect, but those servers are build in Asia and Mexico due to cost. Simple.Oldbear83 said:Sorry but that is a biased and dishonest post.Mothra said:This is the problem. Even if Trump achieves his goal of removing all tariffs (something I am cool with), if the end game is to return manufacturing to the US, that's just never going to happen within the next 2 years. It's why most manufacturing interest groups have come down hard against the tariffs. It will take at least 5 years and huge capital investments to achieve that goal. And that will of course result in much more expensive products, as not only will capital be required, but you will also be paying the American worker with his union dues a LOT more money than some dude in Vietnam.Johnny Bear said:
I have confidence/faith this revolutionary strategy will ultimately succeed long term, but my biggest concern is how long it will take for it to happen and whether or not voters will be willing to wait it out. Everyone can rest assured if dims retake power over the course of the '26 and '28 elections we will immediately return to the endlessly printing money plus increasing the debt like there's no tomorrow strategy and we will be right back to mortgaging future generations while on an inevitable path to national bankruptcy. Hoping and praying the inevitable long term benefit of Trump's strategy - if given the time to succeed - will at least be starting to be felt by the masses before they turn back to the people that got us into the incredible mess in the first place.
The end result is the American people are going to feel the hurt for some time, and the surest fire way to lose the midterms is to hurt Americans in the pocketbook. So whatever Trump's plan is, he better damn sure be both quick and right. Otherwise, he is going to lose both the House and the Senate, and have his agenda completely derailed.
The bottom line is not winning elections, but fixing the basic need to restore our manufacturing base. To do that, several things need to happen, and tariffs are just part of the process, although they need to happen early to be effective.
If you don't understand that point, there's no reason to waste my efforts explaining the rest of it. But two things Trump has learned, that are showing up in the current conditions, include the fact that Trump doesn't care about elections now that he doesn't have any he needs to win going forward (if you are one of those people who can't tell between Trump's trolling and his serious plans, just stop here and go find something with small words and lots of pictures, you won't be able to understand this post), and the framework has to be set up without depending on politicians buying into it. The GOP had everything needed to solve a lot of problems in 2017-18 but didn't want to take on any serious conditions, so only a fool would trust them to have a spine now.
Simple example: HVAC production could easily be brought back if the regulatory burden was eliminated and a window of opportunity existed. The per unit transportation cost exceeds the per unit skilled labor payroll differential. The killer is regulatory nightmares.
Texas cities like Kilgore, Brownwood, Abilene, etc. could easily home and staff production facilities.
tariffs, reducing the regulatory burden, tax incentives, etc. have to be viewed together.
The USA ships pipe from halfway across the globe. Zero chance that works financially based solely on labor and materials cost differential. Transportation EASILY overwhelms those items. It is regulatory burden that causes the globalization.
The "it can't be done" talking point willfully ignores the regulatory component which is being worked in conjunction with tariffs.
Andrew Yang is a grifter dork. Nobody takes him seriouslyboognish_bear said:A big company CEO - “We tried to explain to the administration that it takes 2 - 3 years to shift production domestically and that we would need to know the tariffs go for much longer than that to even start and they ignored us. So we are just going to cut spending.”
— Andrew Yang🧢⬆️🇺🇸 (@AndrewYang) April 5, 2025
JUST IN: Trump’s tariffs will push up the cost of Apple, $AAPL, iPhone components to $846 from $549, per WSJ
— unusual_whales (@unusual_whales) April 5, 2025
Today’s Wall Street Journal front page: pic.twitter.com/xY7ICYRn8b
— Josh Wingrove (@josh_wingrove) April 5, 2025