April 2nd Reciprocal Tariffs

265,632 Views | 3837 Replies | Last: 6 hrs ago by boognish_bear
Adriacus Peratuun
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How many countries opting out of a fight and instead making new more balanced arrangements creates unstoppable momentum to support tariffs?

Certain industries and their pet politicians will continue to scream but the public at large will generally get onboard. Momentum is a weird factor to calculate.

Frank Galvin
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Mothra said:

Porteroso said:

Redbrickbear said:

Porteroso said:

Redbrickbear said:

Porteroso said:

ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:


...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.
It will all trickle back to the consumer. Whether you pay more for made in USA, or more because Chinese goods are 54% more expensive, you are paying more. Tariffs are effectively a tax upon consumers.

Pay more so Americans can have better jobs? Count me in

Not to mention you are going to pay no matter what system you chose.

Even without tariffs you pay....in the real life sense of societal break down and via helping Communist China rise to be a world power.

There is no free lunch....and even free trade has its long term costs....and those costs will come due
That is a great personal policy for you to have as an individual, but it is a long term restructuring policy of the global economy policy to have, as a country. The question has to be asked, what evidence is there that America will be better off if we effectively close ourselves off to global trade?

As I've said, if this ends up being mostly tariffs on China, and we get better deals with most other countries, I can be for that. But as it was proposed, it's a declaration of economic war upon the free market, and that will not go well.

Lost in this is what Republicans used to say was a core value: the free market.

1. We are NOT closing ourselves off to global trade (we could be an Autarky if we wanted....but we don't)

A sensible tariff program is about evening out the inequalities of global trade....everyone can still enter and compete inside the American market

BMW will still be here selling cars for instance.

Global Trade will keep taking place....globalism will not end

2. The real bedrock values of the Republican party were: free soil/anti-slavery, Gold standard, and protective tariffs

Important to remember that was the real GOP for its history
By the way, it won't get to that point. Tariffs are not the purview of the President. He has to declare an emergency to get to this point, and it is trivial for Congress to say "nope" at any time. Congress will not actually allow the global economy to crater, no matter how loved Trump is.
You sure about that? Think enough Republicans in the House will cross him? I am not so confident.
Almost none of them will, but it won't take very many. There are going to be some GOP reps whose districts will take huge hits under these tariffs. They are signing their termination slips if they don't do something.
Redbrickbear
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Mothra said:

Porteroso said:

Redbrickbear said:

Porteroso said:

ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:


...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.
It will all trickle back to the consumer. Whether you pay more for made in USA, or more because Chinese goods are 54% more expensive, you are paying more. Tariffs are effectively a tax upon consumers.

Pay more so Americans can have better jobs? Count me in

Not to mention you are going to pay no matter what system you chose.

Even without tariffs you pay....in the real life sense of societal break down and via helping Communist China rise to be a world power.

There is no free lunch....and even free trade has its long term costs....and those costs will come due
That is a great personal policy for you to have as an individual, but it is a long term restructuring policy of the global economy policy to have, as a country. The question has to be asked, what evidence is there that America will be better off if we effectively close ourselves off to global trade?

As I've said, if this ends up being mostly tariffs on China, and we get better deals with most other countries, I can be for that. But as it was proposed, it's a declaration of economic war upon the free market, and that will not go well.

Lost in this is what Republicans used to say was a core value: the free market. If Trump does negotiate in good faith and get many countries to eliminate their tariffs upon US goods, the free market will benefit. If he does not negotiate, and no matter what a country like Vietnam says (they say they will eliminate all tariffs on US goods.... that's a wrap, right?), he goes forward with tariffs, this will be a major blow to free trade not only globally, but especially in the USA.

No President or Congress has ever taken it upon themself to declare war on free trade, not even the most liberal. To have this done by a Republican, and backed by conservatives, is yet another total flip flop driven by the GOP's total admiration for their Dear Leader.
Red's idea that this is going to hurt China is absurd. China is going to make a killing on this.
If that was the case then the Chinese foreign minister would not be screaming bloody murder...and he is


[China's foreign minister has accused the US of "two-faced" behaviour, condemning the imposition of tariffs on Chinese goods and warning against the "law of the jungle" that could emerge from Donald Trump's "America First" policy.

Speaking at the sidelines of China's annual parliamentary gathering, Wang Yi said China would "firmly counter" US pressure. "No country should think that it can suppress China and maintain good relations," he added.

Wang's comments came days after the US president announced an increase on tariffs on Chinese imports.]
Adriacus Peratuun
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Frank Galvin said:

Mothra said:

Porteroso said:

Redbrickbear said:

Porteroso said:

Redbrickbear said:

Porteroso said:

ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:


...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.
It will all trickle back to the consumer. Whether you pay more for made in USA, or more because Chinese goods are 54% more expensive, you are paying more. Tariffs are effectively a tax upon consumers.

Pay more so Americans can have better jobs? Count me in

Not to mention you are going to pay no matter what system you chose.

Even without tariffs you pay....in the real life sense of societal break down and via helping Communist China rise to be a world power.

There is no free lunch....and even free trade has its long term costs....and those costs will come due
That is a great personal policy for you to have as an individual, but it is a long term restructuring policy of the global economy policy to have, as a country. The question has to be asked, what evidence is there that America will be better off if we effectively close ourselves off to global trade?

As I've said, if this ends up being mostly tariffs on China, and we get better deals with most other countries, I can be for that. But as it was proposed, it's a declaration of economic war upon the free market, and that will not go well.

Lost in this is what Republicans used to say was a core value: the free market.

1. We are NOT closing ourselves off to global trade (we could be an Autarky if we wanted....but we don't)

A sensible tariff program is about evening out the inequalities of global trade....everyone can still enter and compete inside the American market

BMW will still be here selling cars for instance.

Global Trade will keep taking place....globalism will not end

2. The real bedrock values of the Republican party were: free soil/anti-slavery, Gold standard, and protective tariffs

Important to remember that was the real GOP for its history
By the way, it won't get to that point. Tariffs are not the purview of the President. He has to declare an emergency to get to this point, and it is trivial for Congress to say "nope" at any time. Congress will not actually allow the global economy to crater, no matter how loved Trump is.
You sure about that? Think enough Republicans in the House will cross him? I am not so confident.
Almost none of them will, but it won't take very many. There are going to be some GOP reps whose districts will take huge hits under these tariffs. They are signing their termination slips if they don't do something.
Will the number of those Rs outpace the number of Ds who support tariffs? At least one D has publicly come out in support.

Will the issue even be allowed to get to a vote?
Mothra
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Adriacus Peratuun said:

How many countries opting out of a fight and instead making new more balanced arrangements creates unstoppable momentum to support tariffs?

Certain industries and their pet politicians will continue to scream but the public at large will generally get onboard. Momentum is a weird factor to calculate.


What is a new and more balanced arrangement? Some of these countries have lower tariffs than the US. They could do like Israel - get rid of tariffs altogether - and still get smacked with a 30% tariff (like Israel). So what can they do? Try to get their citizens, many of whom have an average income that is a fraction of the income of American citizens, to buy more American products to reduce the trade imbalance? How does that work exactly when they are having trouble putting food on their tables?

Let's drop the silly charade that this is some sort of reciprocal tariff. It's not and never was.
Frank Galvin
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Adriacus Peratuun said:

How many countries opting out of a fight and instead making new more balanced arrangements creates unstoppable momentum to support tariffs?

Certain industries and their pet politicians will continue to scream but the public at large will generally get onboard. Momentum is a weird factor to calculate.


Yes it is. But at present, it is hard to see how this policy has momentum.

And "how do countries opting out of a fight" help the middle-class American. I would guess those who do not retaliate have decided that they will still be able to export becuase even with the tariffs, it makes economic sense for America to import rewther than to onshore.

America gets the revenue maybe, but it means higher prices to do it. So it is still a tax increase; a large one.

Redbrickbear
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Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Frank Galvin said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

whiterock said:

Redbrickbear said:

whiterock said:

Mothra said:

whiterock said:

Robert Wilson said:

Mothra said:

boognish_bear said:

Not sure if this is accurate across the board or not… Comments seemed to indicate so


So, when I first saw the list, I thought it was actually a reciprocal tariff based on the tariffs imposed by other countries, and I thought it might not be so bad.

However, if this is truly the formula Trump used - which is based apparently on trade deficits - this is not a reciprocal tariff but instead a tariff that tries to get manufacturing to come back to the US - something that is likely never gonna happen in any large numbers.

In short, the Trump admin is misleading the American people by labeling this a reciprocal tariff. That's just a wholly false statement.

Such an entirely ridiculous and unnecessary move, and it's going to come back to bite him. Kiss the midterms goodbye. We are going to lose the House and the Senate. So dumb.

I hope Republicans who didn't skip Economics 101 will block this deal.


I'm with you. I could get on board with reciprocal tariffs. If we are instead enacting huge one sided tariffs just to counteract trade deficits, that's insane.

muddled thinking. the purpose of tariffs is to address a trade deficit, which will benefit domestic manufacturers and jobs. Whether they are reciprocal or not depends on the nature of the abuse happening, e.g. look at the way China relocates production & transshipments to avoid existing trade restrictions. This is particularly true when it comes to trade subsidies (which many countries do) and non-tariff barriers to trade like the EU VAT.

if you are going to pick this fight you have to smack hard coming out of the gate, to effectively deny entry to our market unless concessions are made. Your opponent, who has investments in an existing supply chain has to make hard decisions about whether he is going to abandon the supply chain or open up his own market to your goods. Sure, the wealthier countries will have at least theoretical options to consider, but it will take years for them to restructure and in the meantime they will incur more damage to their economy than they will inflict on ours (by virtue of having a trade surplus with us).

our position is quite strong and concessions from trade partners are a matter of when not if.
So, in other words, this is about damaging other countries' economies more than helping our own. It will take years to change supply chain and manufacturing base, but at least over the course of the next two years we can damage their economies worse than they can damage ours. In the meantime, the American people take it in the shorts.

Such a silly strategy.

The silliest strategy of all is doing nothing and accepting the status quo, which is what you are advocating.



There are a lot of people in American who see nothing wrong with the status quo

They walk out of their expensive homes in their expensive neighborhoods and see nothing wrong with the current spoils system or how the economic pie is divided up

They are going to learn (by the ballot box or the bullet) how wrong they are

The red light is flashing...and the American electorate is signaling (potentially dangerously) revolutionary impulses

[America's newly elected president may be a demagogue and a populist, but what he is above all is a revolutionary.
In hoping to make America great again, Donald Trump promises to introduce a fundamental, comprehensive and rapid transformation of American political, economic, social and cultural institutions. Such a massive change is what we mean by the term "revolution."]


https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4976570-america-has-elected-a-revolutionary-will-he-succeed/

The aversion to tariffs is a foremost luxury belief of the upper classes. THEIR careers are not impacted by a flood of cheap foreign goods……
You simpletons are absolute economic idiots. Making the working and middle class pay for their own economic demise through higher prices is one of the most evil ironies I've ever heard of.

Their economic demise was the closing down of 60,000 factories and the importing in of 40-50 million 3rd worlders to work for semi-slave wages

What multi-million dollar home in Highland Park are you posting from to be this blind to the economic realities of modern America.

Get out of the Texas Triangle and drive through America sometime


[U.S. manufacturing employment plummeted by one-third, and 60,000 U.S. factories were closed, just between 1995 and 2010]
I am guessing that "ATL Bear" doesn't live near Highland Park.

There is an absolute myth that America's lower and middle classes (economically speaking) are suffering like never before. Access to medical care, the safety net, and ease of life have never been higher. We have severe challenges, but of the scores of billions of human souls that ever existed, almost all of them would prefer to have lived in America, circa 2025.

Success in America requires education, ambition, hard work, and a responsible lifestyle. If you have and do those things, you almost certainly will have a great life. It is not my grandfather's economy or even my father's economy. But it is still a great place to live. I wish we would quit pretending otherwise.


The USA is a great place to live…I would never argue other wise

And yet at the same time it's middle and lower classes are feeling squeezed like never before…

Have you not notice the political tensions we are living under? Politico described it as "pre-revolutionary"

The middle and lower classes are voting consistently for the most outsider candidates they can find and the ones offering "change"

They are signaling with a flashing red light that they are highly discontented with the present economic arrangement.

And it does not matter that you seem to think they are just not working hard enough…

And you believe that bringing more manufacturing back to the US is going to solve all of these issues?



Solve all issues? No, you can never solve all probelms

But you can help bring back good paying jobs.....and good paying jobs help to stabilize society and stabilize communities (especially among the working and middle class)

That in turn makes everything a little easier....politics, social issues, interpersonal relationships.

Imagine tomorrow if you lost your job and could not get another....imagine if everyone you know in the Woodlands (assuming you live there) could also not find a job. What kind of effect would that have on your mental situation and on the mental situation of your family, friends, and community?

2nd and 3rd order effects and all........every real conservative should be able to understand that


[Since 1989, the tragedy of Flint's decline has been repeated in a number of Midwestern cities plagued with shrinking populations, opiate addiction, joblessness, and a pervasive feeling of hopelessness. Flint and nearby Detroit remain the worst-case scenarios of once-proud, unionized, and solidly middle class "motor cities" that have fallen into ruin. After the 2008 crisis, both had their local authority stripped away by the state of Michigan, with emergency managers replacing municipal governments. In Flint, the emergency manager terminated a water contract with the city of Detroit, preferring to draw water from the polluted Flint River and send it down aging pipes to city residents, 42 percent of whom live below the federal poverty line.

[Once a thriving industrial city of nearly a quarter million people, with most residents' employment tied in some way to automobile manufacturing, Flint's population has dwindled to less than 100,000 in the aftermath of auto plant closures during the 1980s. The city has demolished over 5,000 abandoned houses in the last decade. Today, not one grocery store exists within the city.]

[General Motors was at its peak with around 85,000 employees in the 1980s, according to David White, Genesee Historical Society President....

About 90 percent of Flint's wage, salary and shareholder earnings were estimated to come from local General Motors products in 1950, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.

Flint's population boomed from 13,000 to more than 156,000 residents between 1900 and 1930 - a 1,000 percent gain and 17-times the national growth in population, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.

The city's population continued to climb and peaked at about 200,000 in the 1960s]


https://brightthemag.com/the-fall-of-flint-e74aded576d9

Just so I am clear...

You believe a tariff that is going to - according to JP Morgan - cost the average American family an additional $5k per year,

Ask the people of Flint Michigan (and the thousands of other towns and cities that used to host 60,000-90,000 American factories) if they would pay $5k a year to stop the deindustrialization of the USA and the destruction of their way of life

Please.....
ron.reagan
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Yeah, I'm not sure we are going to have a competitive country if we go back to paying union workers $70/hour to sweep the floor.

boognish_bear
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Redbrickbear
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ron.reagan said:

Yeah, I'm not sure we are going to have a competitive country if we go back to paying union workers $70/hour to sweep the floor.



This kind of extreme example is not going to work on the American people.

Yes, Unions need to be constrained and inefficiencies stopped.

That does not mean we should have shipped 60,000 to 90,000 factories overseas....immiserating our working class while making China a world power.

(not to mention we traded Union guys getting a high wage for sweeping the floor for toxic DEI jobs were paper pusher leftists make $100,000 to talk about race & LGBTQ stuff all day....driving up the cost of a college education to a astronomical level.

Its not just Union guys bleeding the system and being horribly inefficient....and at least those guys were decent patriotic people )

Adriacus Peratuun
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Mothra said:

Adriacus Peratuun said:

How many countries opting out of a fight and instead making new more balanced arrangements creates unstoppable momentum to support tariffs?

Certain industries and their pet politicians will continue to scream but the public at large will generally get onboard. Momentum is a weird factor to calculate.


What is a new and more balanced arrangement? Some of these countries have lower tariffs than the US. They could do like Israel - get rid of tariffs altogether - and still get smacked with a 30% tariff (like Israel). So what can they do? Try to get their citizens, many of whom have an average income that is a fraction of the income of American citizens, to buy more American products to reduce the trade imbalance? How does that work exactly when they are having trouble putting food on their tables?

Let's drop the silly charade that this is some sort of reciprocal tariff. It's not and never was.
Your argument is based upon a false assumption. That a global tariff scheme is intended to have equal long term impact across the globe.

Squeezing everyone serves multiple purposes.

1) lock up some early easy wins.
2) deal making by "not the true targets" puts pressure on the true targets to deal.

End game:

Germany buying LNG from us and telling Russia to kick sand.
Kill all of the preferential deals that China has negotiated in the developing world.
Stop all of the undercover Airbus subsidies.
Get tech manufacturing back in the USA [to some degree]
Teach India a harsh lesson
And similar………
boognish_bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Let the brinkmanship commence

Mothra
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Frank Galvin said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

whiterock said:

Redbrickbear said:

whiterock said:

Mothra said:

whiterock said:

Robert Wilson said:

Mothra said:

boognish_bear said:

Not sure if this is accurate across the board or not… Comments seemed to indicate so


So, when I first saw the list, I thought it was actually a reciprocal tariff based on the tariffs imposed by other countries, and I thought it might not be so bad.

However, if this is truly the formula Trump used - which is based apparently on trade deficits - this is not a reciprocal tariff but instead a tariff that tries to get manufacturing to come back to the US - something that is likely never gonna happen in any large numbers.

In short, the Trump admin is misleading the American people by labeling this a reciprocal tariff. That's just a wholly false statement.

Such an entirely ridiculous and unnecessary move, and it's going to come back to bite him. Kiss the midterms goodbye. We are going to lose the House and the Senate. So dumb.

I hope Republicans who didn't skip Economics 101 will block this deal.


I'm with you. I could get on board with reciprocal tariffs. If we are instead enacting huge one sided tariffs just to counteract trade deficits, that's insane.

muddled thinking. the purpose of tariffs is to address a trade deficit, which will benefit domestic manufacturers and jobs. Whether they are reciprocal or not depends on the nature of the abuse happening, e.g. look at the way China relocates production & transshipments to avoid existing trade restrictions. This is particularly true when it comes to trade subsidies (which many countries do) and non-tariff barriers to trade like the EU VAT.

if you are going to pick this fight you have to smack hard coming out of the gate, to effectively deny entry to our market unless concessions are made. Your opponent, who has investments in an existing supply chain has to make hard decisions about whether he is going to abandon the supply chain or open up his own market to your goods. Sure, the wealthier countries will have at least theoretical options to consider, but it will take years for them to restructure and in the meantime they will incur more damage to their economy than they will inflict on ours (by virtue of having a trade surplus with us).

our position is quite strong and concessions from trade partners are a matter of when not if.
So, in other words, this is about damaging other countries' economies more than helping our own. It will take years to change supply chain and manufacturing base, but at least over the course of the next two years we can damage their economies worse than they can damage ours. In the meantime, the American people take it in the shorts.

Such a silly strategy.

The silliest strategy of all is doing nothing and accepting the status quo, which is what you are advocating.



There are a lot of people in American who see nothing wrong with the status quo

They walk out of their expensive homes in their expensive neighborhoods and see nothing wrong with the current spoils system or how the economic pie is divided up

They are going to learn (by the ballot box or the bullet) how wrong they are

The red light is flashing...and the American electorate is signaling (potentially dangerously) revolutionary impulses

[America's newly elected president may be a demagogue and a populist, but what he is above all is a revolutionary.
In hoping to make America great again, Donald Trump promises to introduce a fundamental, comprehensive and rapid transformation of American political, economic, social and cultural institutions. Such a massive change is what we mean by the term "revolution."]


https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4976570-america-has-elected-a-revolutionary-will-he-succeed/

The aversion to tariffs is a foremost luxury belief of the upper classes. THEIR careers are not impacted by a flood of cheap foreign goods……
You simpletons are absolute economic idiots. Making the working and middle class pay for their own economic demise through higher prices is one of the most evil ironies I've ever heard of.

Their economic demise was the closing down of 60,000 factories and the importing in of 40-50 million 3rd worlders to work for semi-slave wages

What multi-million dollar home in Highland Park are you posting from to be this blind to the economic realities of modern America.

Get out of the Texas Triangle and drive through America sometime


[U.S. manufacturing employment plummeted by one-third, and 60,000 U.S. factories were closed, just between 1995 and 2010]
I am guessing that "ATL Bear" doesn't live near Highland Park.

There is an absolute myth that America's lower and middle classes (economically speaking) are suffering like never before. Access to medical care, the safety net, and ease of life have never been higher. We have severe challenges, but of the scores of billions of human souls that ever existed, almost all of them would prefer to have lived in America, circa 2025.

Success in America requires education, ambition, hard work, and a responsible lifestyle. If you have and do those things, you almost certainly will have a great life. It is not my grandfather's economy or even my father's economy. But it is still a great place to live. I wish we would quit pretending otherwise.


The USA is a great place to live…I would never argue other wise

And yet at the same time it's middle and lower classes are feeling squeezed like never before…

Have you not notice the political tensions we are living under? Politico described it as "pre-revolutionary"

The middle and lower classes are voting consistently for the most outsider candidates they can find and the ones offering "change"

They are signaling with a flashing red light that they are highly discontented with the present economic arrangement.

And it does not matter that you seem to think they are just not working hard enough…

And you believe that bringing more manufacturing back to the US is going to solve all of these issues?



Solve all issues? No, you can never solve all probelms

But you can help bring back good paying jobs.....and good paying jobs help to stabilize society and stabilize communities (especially among the working and middle class)

That in turn makes everything a little easier....politics, social issues, interpersonal relationships.

Imagine tomorrow if you lost your job and could not get another....imagine if everyone you know in the Woodlands (assuming you live there) could also not find a job. What kind of effect would that have on your mental situation and on the mental situation of your family, friends, and community?

2nd and 3rd order effects and all........every real conservative should be able to understand that


[Since 1989, the tragedy of Flint's decline has been repeated in a number of Midwestern cities plagued with shrinking populations, opiate addiction, joblessness, and a pervasive feeling of hopelessness. Flint and nearby Detroit remain the worst-case scenarios of once-proud, unionized, and solidly middle class "motor cities" that have fallen into ruin. After the 2008 crisis, both had their local authority stripped away by the state of Michigan, with emergency managers replacing municipal governments. In Flint, the emergency manager terminated a water contract with the city of Detroit, preferring to draw water from the polluted Flint River and send it down aging pipes to city residents, 42 percent of whom live below the federal poverty line.

[Once a thriving industrial city of nearly a quarter million people, with most residents' employment tied in some way to automobile manufacturing, Flint's population has dwindled to less than 100,000 in the aftermath of auto plant closures during the 1980s. The city has demolished over 5,000 abandoned houses in the last decade. Today, not one grocery store exists within the city.]

[General Motors was at its peak with around 85,000 employees in the 1980s, according to David White, Genesee Historical Society President....

About 90 percent of Flint's wage, salary and shareholder earnings were estimated to come from local General Motors products in 1950, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.

Flint's population boomed from 13,000 to more than 156,000 residents between 1900 and 1930 - a 1,000 percent gain and 17-times the national growth in population, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.

The city's population continued to climb and peaked at about 200,000 in the 1960s]


https://brightthemag.com/the-fall-of-flint-e74aded576d9

Just so I am clear...

You believe a tariff that is going to - according to JP Morgan - cost the average American family an additional $5k per year,

Ask the people of Flint Michigan (and the thousands of other towns and cities that used to host 60,000-90,000 American factories) if they would pay $5k a year to stop the deindustrialization of the USA and the destruction of their way of life

Please.....
Those jobs aren't coming back in the next 2 years brother. This ain't the 70's. And putting a tax on all Americans to have a few thousand workers in Flint employed is just utterly, stupid policy.
Mothra
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Adriacus Peratuun said:

Mothra said:

Adriacus Peratuun said:

How many countries opting out of a fight and instead making new more balanced arrangements creates unstoppable momentum to support tariffs?

Certain industries and their pet politicians will continue to scream but the public at large will generally get onboard. Momentum is a weird factor to calculate.


What is a new and more balanced arrangement? Some of these countries have lower tariffs than the US. They could do like Israel - get rid of tariffs altogether - and still get smacked with a 30% tariff (like Israel). So what can they do? Try to get their citizens, many of whom have an average income that is a fraction of the income of American citizens, to buy more American products to reduce the trade imbalance? How does that work exactly when they are having trouble putting food on their tables?

Let's drop the silly charade that this is some sort of reciprocal tariff. It's not and never was.
Your argument is based upon a false assumption. That a global tariff scheme is intended to have equal long term impact across the globe.

Squeezing everyone serves multiple purposes.

1) lock up some early easy wins.
2) deal making by "not the true targets" puts pressure on the true targets to deal.

End game:

Germany buying LNG from us and telling Russia to kick sand.
Kill all of the preferential deals that China has negotiated in the developing world.
Stop all of the undercover Airbus subsidies.
Get tech manufacturing back in the USA [to some degree]
Teach India a harsh lesson
And similar………
We will see if it works.
boognish_bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Frank Galvin said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

whiterock said:

Redbrickbear said:

whiterock said:

Mothra said:

whiterock said:

Robert Wilson said:

Mothra said:

boognish_bear said:

Not sure if this is accurate across the board or not… Comments seemed to indicate so


So, when I first saw the list, I thought it was actually a reciprocal tariff based on the tariffs imposed by other countries, and I thought it might not be so bad.

However, if this is truly the formula Trump used - which is based apparently on trade deficits - this is not a reciprocal tariff but instead a tariff that tries to get manufacturing to come back to the US - something that is likely never gonna happen in any large numbers.

In short, the Trump admin is misleading the American people by labeling this a reciprocal tariff. That's just a wholly false statement.

Such an entirely ridiculous and unnecessary move, and it's going to come back to bite him. Kiss the midterms goodbye. We are going to lose the House and the Senate. So dumb.

I hope Republicans who didn't skip Economics 101 will block this deal.


I'm with you. I could get on board with reciprocal tariffs. If we are instead enacting huge one sided tariffs just to counteract trade deficits, that's insane.

muddled thinking. the purpose of tariffs is to address a trade deficit, which will benefit domestic manufacturers and jobs. Whether they are reciprocal or not depends on the nature of the abuse happening, e.g. look at the way China relocates production & transshipments to avoid existing trade restrictions. This is particularly true when it comes to trade subsidies (which many countries do) and non-tariff barriers to trade like the EU VAT.

if you are going to pick this fight you have to smack hard coming out of the gate, to effectively deny entry to our market unless concessions are made. Your opponent, who has investments in an existing supply chain has to make hard decisions about whether he is going to abandon the supply chain or open up his own market to your goods. Sure, the wealthier countries will have at least theoretical options to consider, but it will take years for them to restructure and in the meantime they will incur more damage to their economy than they will inflict on ours (by virtue of having a trade surplus with us).

our position is quite strong and concessions from trade partners are a matter of when not if.
So, in other words, this is about damaging other countries' economies more than helping our own. It will take years to change supply chain and manufacturing base, but at least over the course of the next two years we can damage their economies worse than they can damage ours. In the meantime, the American people take it in the shorts.

Such a silly strategy.

The silliest strategy of all is doing nothing and accepting the status quo, which is what you are advocating.



There are a lot of people in American who see nothing wrong with the status quo

They walk out of their expensive homes in their expensive neighborhoods and see nothing wrong with the current spoils system or how the economic pie is divided up

They are going to learn (by the ballot box or the bullet) how wrong they are

The red light is flashing...and the American electorate is signaling (potentially dangerously) revolutionary impulses

[America's newly elected president may be a demagogue and a populist, but what he is above all is a revolutionary.
In hoping to make America great again, Donald Trump promises to introduce a fundamental, comprehensive and rapid transformation of American political, economic, social and cultural institutions. Such a massive change is what we mean by the term "revolution."]


https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4976570-america-has-elected-a-revolutionary-will-he-succeed/

The aversion to tariffs is a foremost luxury belief of the upper classes. THEIR careers are not impacted by a flood of cheap foreign goods……
You simpletons are absolute economic idiots. Making the working and middle class pay for their own economic demise through higher prices is one of the most evil ironies I've ever heard of.

Their economic demise was the closing down of 60,000 factories and the importing in of 40-50 million 3rd worlders to work for semi-slave wages

What multi-million dollar home in Highland Park are you posting from to be this blind to the economic realities of modern America.

Get out of the Texas Triangle and drive through America sometime


[U.S. manufacturing employment plummeted by one-third, and 60,000 U.S. factories were closed, just between 1995 and 2010]
I am guessing that "ATL Bear" doesn't live near Highland Park.

There is an absolute myth that America's lower and middle classes (economically speaking) are suffering like never before. Access to medical care, the safety net, and ease of life have never been higher. We have severe challenges, but of the scores of billions of human souls that ever existed, almost all of them would prefer to have lived in America, circa 2025.

Success in America requires education, ambition, hard work, and a responsible lifestyle. If you have and do those things, you almost certainly will have a great life. It is not my grandfather's economy or even my father's economy. But it is still a great place to live. I wish we would quit pretending otherwise.


The USA is a great place to live…I would never argue other wise

And yet at the same time it's middle and lower classes are feeling squeezed like never before…

Have you not notice the political tensions we are living under? Politico described it as "pre-revolutionary"

The middle and lower classes are voting consistently for the most outsider candidates they can find and the ones offering "change"

They are signaling with a flashing red light that they are highly discontented with the present economic arrangement.

And it does not matter that you seem to think they are just not working hard enough…

And you believe that bringing more manufacturing back to the US is going to solve all of these issues?



Solve all issues? No, you can never solve all probelms

But you can help bring back good paying jobs.....and good paying jobs help to stabilize society and stabilize communities (especially among the working and middle class)

That in turn makes everything a little easier....politics, social issues, interpersonal relationships.

Imagine tomorrow if you lost your job and could not get another....imagine if everyone you know in the Woodlands (assuming you live there) could also not find a job. What kind of effect would that have on your mental situation and on the mental situation of your family, friends, and community?

2nd and 3rd order effects and all........every real conservative should be able to understand that


[Since 1989, the tragedy of Flint's decline has been repeated in a number of Midwestern cities plagued with shrinking populations, opiate addiction, joblessness, and a pervasive feeling of hopelessness. Flint and nearby Detroit remain the worst-case scenarios of once-proud, unionized, and solidly middle class "motor cities" that have fallen into ruin. After the 2008 crisis, both had their local authority stripped away by the state of Michigan, with emergency managers replacing municipal governments. In Flint, the emergency manager terminated a water contract with the city of Detroit, preferring to draw water from the polluted Flint River and send it down aging pipes to city residents, 42 percent of whom live below the federal poverty line.

[Once a thriving industrial city of nearly a quarter million people, with most residents' employment tied in some way to automobile manufacturing, Flint's population has dwindled to less than 100,000 in the aftermath of auto plant closures during the 1980s. The city has demolished over 5,000 abandoned houses in the last decade. Today, not one grocery store exists within the city.]

[General Motors was at its peak with around 85,000 employees in the 1980s, according to David White, Genesee Historical Society President....

About 90 percent of Flint's wage, salary and shareholder earnings were estimated to come from local General Motors products in 1950, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.

Flint's population boomed from 13,000 to more than 156,000 residents between 1900 and 1930 - a 1,000 percent gain and 17-times the national growth in population, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.

The city's population continued to climb and peaked at about 200,000 in the 1960s]


https://brightthemag.com/the-fall-of-flint-e74aded576d9

Just so I am clear...

You believe a tariff that is going to - according to JP Morgan - cost the average American family an additional $5k per year,

Ask the people of Flint Michigan (and the thousands of other towns and cities that used to host 60,000-90,000 American factories) if they would pay $5k a year to stop the deindustrialization of the USA and the destruction of their way of life

Please.....
Those jobs aren't coming back in the next 2 years brother. This ain't the 70's. And putting a tax on all Americans to have a few thousand workers in Flint employed is just utterly, stupid policy.

You might be right that it will take more than 2 years to undue decades of foolish economic policy and damage.

But you are wrong if you don't think something has to be tried.....manufacturing powers are as important today for world power as they were in 1970s and as important as they were in 1870s

You either make things for consumer consumption (building up factories and worker expertise)....that can be turned toward weapons manufacturing in the event of war....or you get run over.

Ask the Ottoman Empire, ask Qing China, ask the CSA, ask anyone.......build or get crushed

[A strong manufacturing base can contribute significantly to a nation's overall power and influence...

A robust manufacturing sector can lead to economic prosperity, technological innovation, and the ability to produce goods and services that are in high demand, both domestically and internationally]
boognish_bear
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Mars will be next

ron.reagan
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Things can be important and also require to be subsidized. Keeping steel factories here are import and deserved to be kept open even at the cost of tax payers. GI Joe manufacturing is something we could let the market work out
ron.reagan
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boognish_bear said:

Mars will be next


My guess it is because of the seals. Very bad hombres but I assume some are good
Limited IQ Redneck in PU
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ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:

ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:


...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.


Trump said the tariff money can be used to help eliminate income taxes. So everyone buying American wouldn't help that out...
I don't see Congress getting rid of income taxes. Get back to me when they do.
Great Scott. Tariffs are a tax on you. When Trump puts a 25% tariff on foriegn cars, you will pay the difference. Tariffs are an attempt to force you to buy an American made car.
I have found theres only two ways to go:
Living fast or dying slow.
I dont want to live forever.
But I will live while I'm here.
Adriacus Peratuun
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:

ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:


...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.


Trump said the tariff money can be used to help eliminate income taxes. So everyone buying American wouldn't help that out...
I don't see Congress getting rid of income taxes. Get back to me when they do.
Great Scott. Tariffs are a tax on you. When Trump puts a 25% tariff on foriegn cars, you will pay the difference. Tariffs are an attempt to force you to buy an American made car.
Clarification…….foreign manufactured cars not foreign brand cars.

There are plenty of foreign brand cars manufactured in Alabama, Mississippi, the Carolinas, Tennessee, etc.
Redbrickbear
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Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:

ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:


...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.


Trump said the tariff money can be used to help eliminate income taxes. So everyone buying American wouldn't help that out...
I don't see Congress getting rid of income taxes. Get back to me when they do.
Great Scott. Tariffs are a tax on you. When Trump puts a 25% tariff on foreign cars, you will pay the difference. Tariffs are an attempt to force you to buy an American made car.

No, the foreign manufacturer will

They will cut costs and sell the car at a cheap enough price point to be competitive in the US market

Or they will move production of said car to the USA to avoid the tariff....thus creating jobs in the USA
ron.reagan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Adriacus Peratuun said:

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:

ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:


...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.


Trump said the tariff money can be used to help eliminate income taxes. So everyone buying American wouldn't help that out...
I don't see Congress getting rid of income taxes. Get back to me when they do.
Great Scott. Tariffs are a tax on you. When Trump puts a 25% tariff on foriegn cars, you will pay the difference. Tariffs are an attempt to force you to buy an American made car.
Clarification…….foreign manufactured cars not foreign brand cars.

There are plenty of foreign brand cars manufactured in Alabama, Mississippi, the Carolinas, Tennessee, etc.
assembling plants, so not much difference
Adriacus Peratuun
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ron.reagan said:

Adriacus Peratuun said:

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:

ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:


...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.


Trump said the tariff money can be used to help eliminate income taxes. So everyone buying American wouldn't help that out...
I don't see Congress getting rid of income taxes. Get back to me when they do.
Great Scott. Tariffs are a tax on you. When Trump puts a 25% tariff on foriegn cars, you will pay the difference. Tariffs are an attempt to force you to buy an American made car.
Clarification…….foreign manufactured cars not foreign brand cars.

There are plenty of foreign brand cars manufactured in Alabama, Mississippi, the Carolinas, Tennessee, etc.
assembling plants, so not much difference
Granted that engines & drive trains will continue to be built in Japan & Germany [and almost every chip in Taiwan……a different issue], but everything else can be grabbed back from Canada & Mexico. The USA can cost-effectively manufacture many automotive components.
ATL Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Frank Galvin said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

whiterock said:

Redbrickbear said:

whiterock said:

Mothra said:

whiterock said:

Robert Wilson said:

Mothra said:

boognish_bear said:

Not sure if this is accurate across the board or not… Comments seemed to indicate so


So, when I first saw the list, I thought it was actually a reciprocal tariff based on the tariffs imposed by other countries, and I thought it might not be so bad.

However, if this is truly the formula Trump used - which is based apparently on trade deficits - this is not a reciprocal tariff but instead a tariff that tries to get manufacturing to come back to the US - something that is likely never gonna happen in any large numbers.

In short, the Trump admin is misleading the American people by labeling this a reciprocal tariff. That's just a wholly false statement.

Such an entirely ridiculous and unnecessary move, and it's going to come back to bite him. Kiss the midterms goodbye. We are going to lose the House and the Senate. So dumb.

I hope Republicans who didn't skip Economics 101 will block this deal.


I'm with you. I could get on board with reciprocal tariffs. If we are instead enacting huge one sided tariffs just to counteract trade deficits, that's insane.

muddled thinking. the purpose of tariffs is to address a trade deficit, which will benefit domestic manufacturers and jobs. Whether they are reciprocal or not depends on the nature of the abuse happening, e.g. look at the way China relocates production & transshipments to avoid existing trade restrictions. This is particularly true when it comes to trade subsidies (which many countries do) and non-tariff barriers to trade like the EU VAT.

if you are going to pick this fight you have to smack hard coming out of the gate, to effectively deny entry to our market unless concessions are made. Your opponent, who has investments in an existing supply chain has to make hard decisions about whether he is going to abandon the supply chain or open up his own market to your goods. Sure, the wealthier countries will have at least theoretical options to consider, but it will take years for them to restructure and in the meantime they will incur more damage to their economy than they will inflict on ours (by virtue of having a trade surplus with us).

our position is quite strong and concessions from trade partners are a matter of when not if.
So, in other words, this is about damaging other countries' economies more than helping our own. It will take years to change supply chain and manufacturing base, but at least over the course of the next two years we can damage their economies worse than they can damage ours. In the meantime, the American people take it in the shorts.

Such a silly strategy.

The silliest strategy of all is doing nothing and accepting the status quo, which is what you are advocating.



There are a lot of people in American who see nothing wrong with the status quo

They walk out of their expensive homes in their expensive neighborhoods and see nothing wrong with the current spoils system or how the economic pie is divided up

They are going to learn (by the ballot box or the bullet) how wrong they are

The red light is flashing...and the American electorate is signaling (potentially dangerously) revolutionary impulses

[America's newly elected president may be a demagogue and a populist, but what he is above all is a revolutionary.
In hoping to make America great again, Donald Trump promises to introduce a fundamental, comprehensive and rapid transformation of American political, economic, social and cultural institutions. Such a massive change is what we mean by the term "revolution."]


https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4976570-america-has-elected-a-revolutionary-will-he-succeed/

The aversion to tariffs is a foremost luxury belief of the upper classes. THEIR careers are not impacted by a flood of cheap foreign goods……
You simpletons are absolute economic idiots. Making the working and middle class pay for their own economic demise through higher prices is one of the most evil ironies I've ever heard of.

Their economic demise was the closing down of 60,000 factories and the importing in of 40-50 million 3rd worlders to work for semi-slave wages

What multi-million dollar home in Highland Park are you posting from to be this blind to the economic realities of modern America.

Get out of the Texas Triangle and drive through America sometime


[U.S. manufacturing employment plummeted by one-third, and 60,000 U.S. factories were closed, just between 1995 and 2010]
I am guessing that "ATL Bear" doesn't live near Highland Park.

There is an absolute myth that America's lower and middle classes (economically speaking) are suffering like never before. Access to medical care, the safety net, and ease of life have never been higher. We have severe challenges, but of the scores of billions of human souls that ever existed, almost all of them would prefer to have lived in America, circa 2025.

Success in America requires education, ambition, hard work, and a responsible lifestyle. If you have and do those things, you almost certainly will have a great life. It is not my grandfather's economy or even my father's economy. But it is still a great place to live. I wish we would quit pretending otherwise.


The USA is a great place to live…I would never argue other wise

And yet at the same time it's middle and lower classes are feeling squeezed like never before…

Have you not notice the political tensions we are living under? Politico described it as "pre-revolutionary"

The middle and lower classes are voting consistently for the most outsider candidates they can find and the ones offering "change"

They are signaling with a flashing red light that they are highly discontented with the present economic arrangement.

And it does not matter that you seem to think they are just not working hard enough…

And you believe that bringing more manufacturing back to the US is going to solve all of these issues?



Solve all issues? No, you can never solve all probelms

But you can help bring back good paying jobs.....and good paying jobs help to stabilize society and stabilize communities (especially among the working and middle class)

That in turn makes everything a little easier....politics, social issues, interpersonal relationships.

Imagine tomorrow if you lost your job and could not get another....imagine if everyone you know in the Woodlands (assuming you live there) could also not find a job. What kind of effect would that have on your mental situation and on the mental situation of your family, friends, and community?

2nd and 3rd order effects and all........every real conservative should be able to understand that


[Since 1989, the tragedy of Flint's decline has been repeated in a number of Midwestern cities plagued with shrinking populations, opiate addiction, joblessness, and a pervasive feeling of hopelessness. Flint and nearby Detroit remain the worst-case scenarios of once-proud, unionized, and solidly middle class "motor cities" that have fallen into ruin. After the 2008 crisis, both had their local authority stripped away by the state of Michigan, with emergency managers replacing municipal governments. In Flint, the emergency manager terminated a water contract with the city of Detroit, preferring to draw water from the polluted Flint River and send it down aging pipes to city residents, 42 percent of whom live below the federal poverty line.

[Once a thriving industrial city of nearly a quarter million people, with most residents' employment tied in some way to automobile manufacturing, Flint's population has dwindled to less than 100,000 in the aftermath of auto plant closures during the 1980s. The city has demolished over 5,000 abandoned houses in the last decade. Today, not one grocery store exists within the city.]

[General Motors was at its peak with around 85,000 employees in the 1980s, according to David White, Genesee Historical Society President....

About 90 percent of Flint's wage, salary and shareholder earnings were estimated to come from local General Motors products in 1950, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.

Flint's population boomed from 13,000 to more than 156,000 residents between 1900 and 1930 - a 1,000 percent gain and 17-times the national growth in population, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.

The city's population continued to climb and peaked at about 200,000 in the 1960s]


https://brightthemag.com/the-fall-of-flint-e74aded576d9

Just so I am clear...

You believe a tariff that is going to - according to JP Morgan - cost the average American family an additional $5k per year,

Ask the people of Flint Michigan (and the thousands of other towns and cities that used to host 60,000-90,000 American factories) if they would pay $5k a year to stop the deindustrialization of the USA and the destruction of their way of life

Please.....
Those jobs aren't coming back in the next 2 years brother. This ain't the 70's. And putting a tax on all Americans to have a few thousand workers in Flint employed is just utterly, stupid policy.

You might be right that it will take more than 2 years to undue decades of foolish economic policy and damage.

But you are wrong if you don't think something has to be tried.....manufacturing powers are as important today for world power as they were in 1970s and as important as they were in 1870s

You either make things for consumer consumption (building up factories and worker expertise)....that can be turned toward weapons manufacturing in the event of war....or you get run over.

Ask the Ottoman Empire, ask Qing China, ask the CSA, ask anyone.......build or get crushed

[A strong manufacturing base can contribute significantly to a nation's overall power and influence...

A robust manufacturing sector can lead to economic prosperity, technological innovation, and the ability to produce goods and services that are in high demand, both domestically and internationally]
Low skill manufacturing isn't coming back. And even if it did it would be low wage work and serve no economic purpose other than higher prices and increased worker risk for low pay. That was the preponderance of the oft sighted 60,000 - 90,000 factory loss (heck of a range there BTW).

Bringing manufacturing back is a capital not labor exercise, and the type of manufacturing we need is not only skilled labor, but highly skilled labor which is not only in short supply, but requires a reorientation of our education and training matrix domestically to address the short and long term lack of resources. That's before we even address the scale required to mass produce like our global competitors, the deregulation required to even contemplate it, and the supply chains necessary to execute.

Manufacturing employment beyond engineering, IT, and specialty technicians is on the bullet train of obsolescence. Why we would go to war with the world economically to try and protect it is beyond me. Don't protect, create and innovate. That's what always made us better.
ATL Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Frank Galvin said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

whiterock said:

Redbrickbear said:

whiterock said:

Mothra said:

whiterock said:

Robert Wilson said:

Mothra said:

boognish_bear said:

Not sure if this is accurate across the board or not… Comments seemed to indicate so


So, when I first saw the list, I thought it was actually a reciprocal tariff based on the tariffs imposed by other countries, and I thought it might not be so bad.

However, if this is truly the formula Trump used - which is based apparently on trade deficits - this is not a reciprocal tariff but instead a tariff that tries to get manufacturing to come back to the US - something that is likely never gonna happen in any large numbers.

In short, the Trump admin is misleading the American people by labeling this a reciprocal tariff. That's just a wholly false statement.

Such an entirely ridiculous and unnecessary move, and it's going to come back to bite him. Kiss the midterms goodbye. We are going to lose the House and the Senate. So dumb.

I hope Republicans who didn't skip Economics 101 will block this deal.


I'm with you. I could get on board with reciprocal tariffs. If we are instead enacting huge one sided tariffs just to counteract trade deficits, that's insane.

muddled thinking. the purpose of tariffs is to address a trade deficit, which will benefit domestic manufacturers and jobs. Whether they are reciprocal or not depends on the nature of the abuse happening, e.g. look at the way China relocates production & transshipments to avoid existing trade restrictions. This is particularly true when it comes to trade subsidies (which many countries do) and non-tariff barriers to trade like the EU VAT.

if you are going to pick this fight you have to smack hard coming out of the gate, to effectively deny entry to our market unless concessions are made. Your opponent, who has investments in an existing supply chain has to make hard decisions about whether he is going to abandon the supply chain or open up his own market to your goods. Sure, the wealthier countries will have at least theoretical options to consider, but it will take years for them to restructure and in the meantime they will incur more damage to their economy than they will inflict on ours (by virtue of having a trade surplus with us).

our position is quite strong and concessions from trade partners are a matter of when not if.
So, in other words, this is about damaging other countries' economies more than helping our own. It will take years to change supply chain and manufacturing base, but at least over the course of the next two years we can damage their economies worse than they can damage ours. In the meantime, the American people take it in the shorts.

Such a silly strategy.

The silliest strategy of all is doing nothing and accepting the status quo, which is what you are advocating.



There are a lot of people in American who see nothing wrong with the status quo

They walk out of their expensive homes in their expensive neighborhoods and see nothing wrong with the current spoils system or how the economic pie is divided up

They are going to learn (by the ballot box or the bullet) how wrong they are

The red light is flashing...and the American electorate is signaling (potentially dangerously) revolutionary impulses

[America's newly elected president may be a demagogue and a populist, but what he is above all is a revolutionary.
In hoping to make America great again, Donald Trump promises to introduce a fundamental, comprehensive and rapid transformation of American political, economic, social and cultural institutions. Such a massive change is what we mean by the term "revolution."]


https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4976570-america-has-elected-a-revolutionary-will-he-succeed/

The aversion to tariffs is a foremost luxury belief of the upper classes. THEIR careers are not impacted by a flood of cheap foreign goods……
You simpletons are absolute economic idiots. Making the working and middle class pay for their own economic demise through higher prices is one of the most evil ironies I've ever heard of.

Their economic demise was the closing down of 60,000 factories and the importing in of 40-50 million 3rd worlders to work for semi-slave wages

What multi-million dollar home in Highland Park are you posting from to be this blind to the economic realities of modern America.

Get out of the Texas Triangle and drive through America sometime


[U.S. manufacturing employment plummeted by one-third, and 60,000 U.S. factories were closed, just between 1995 and 2010]
I am guessing that "ATL Bear" doesn't live near Highland Park.

There is an absolute myth that America's lower and middle classes (economically speaking) are suffering like never before. Access to medical care, the safety net, and ease of life have never been higher. We have severe challenges, but of the scores of billions of human souls that ever existed, almost all of them would prefer to have lived in America, circa 2025.

Success in America requires education, ambition, hard work, and a responsible lifestyle. If you have and do those things, you almost certainly will have a great life. It is not my grandfather's economy or even my father's economy. But it is still a great place to live. I wish we would quit pretending otherwise.


The USA is a great place to live…I would never argue other wise

And yet at the same time it's middle and lower classes are feeling squeezed like never before…

Have you not notice the political tensions we are living under? Politico described it as "pre-revolutionary"

The middle and lower classes are voting consistently for the most outsider candidates they can find and the ones offering "change"

They are signaling with a flashing red light that they are highly discontented with the present economic arrangement.

And it does not matter that you seem to think they are just not working hard enough…

And you believe that bringing more manufacturing back to the US is going to solve all of these issues?



Solve all issues? No, you can never solve all probelms

But you can help bring back good paying jobs.....and good paying jobs help to stabilize society and stabilize communities (especially among the working and middle class)

That in turn makes everything a little easier....politics, social issues, interpersonal relationships.

Imagine tomorrow if you lost your job and could not get another....imagine if everyone you know in the Woodlands (assuming you live there) could also not find a job. What kind of effect would that have on your mental situation and on the mental situation of your family, friends, and community?

2nd and 3rd order effects and all........every real conservative should be able to understand that


[Since 1989, the tragedy of Flint's decline has been repeated in a number of Midwestern cities plagued with shrinking populations, opiate addiction, joblessness, and a pervasive feeling of hopelessness. Flint and nearby Detroit remain the worst-case scenarios of once-proud, unionized, and solidly middle class "motor cities" that have fallen into ruin. After the 2008 crisis, both had their local authority stripped away by the state of Michigan, with emergency managers replacing municipal governments. In Flint, the emergency manager terminated a water contract with the city of Detroit, preferring to draw water from the polluted Flint River and send it down aging pipes to city residents, 42 percent of whom live below the federal poverty line.

[Once a thriving industrial city of nearly a quarter million people, with most residents' employment tied in some way to automobile manufacturing, Flint's population has dwindled to less than 100,000 in the aftermath of auto plant closures during the 1980s. The city has demolished over 5,000 abandoned houses in the last decade. Today, not one grocery store exists within the city.]

[General Motors was at its peak with around 85,000 employees in the 1980s, according to David White, Genesee Historical Society President....

About 90 percent of Flint's wage, salary and shareholder earnings were estimated to come from local General Motors products in 1950, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.

Flint's population boomed from 13,000 to more than 156,000 residents between 1900 and 1930 - a 1,000 percent gain and 17-times the national growth in population, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.

The city's population continued to climb and peaked at about 200,000 in the 1960s]


https://brightthemag.com/the-fall-of-flint-e74aded576d9

Just so I am clear...

You believe a tariff that is going to - according to JP Morgan - cost the average American family an additional $5k per year,

Ask the people of Flint Michigan (and the thousands of other towns and cities that used to host 60,000-90,000 American factories) if they would pay $5k a year to stop the deindustrialization of the USA and the destruction of their way of life

Please.....
Those jobs aren't coming back in the next 2 years brother. This ain't the 70's. And putting a tax on all Americans to have a few thousand workers in Flint employed is just utterly, stupid policy.

You might be right that it will take more than 2 years to undue decades of foolish economic policy and damage.

But you are wrong if you don't think something has to be tried.....manufacturing powers are as important today for world power as they were in 1970s and as important as they were in 1870s

You either make things for consumer consumption (building up factories and worker expertise)....that can be turned toward weapons manufacturing in the event of war....or you get run over.

Ask the Ottoman Empire, ask Qing China, ask the CSA, ask anyone.......build or get crushed

[A strong manufacturing base can contribute significantly to a nation's overall power and influence...

A robust manufacturing sector can lead to economic prosperity, technological innovation, and the ability to produce goods and services that are in high demand, both domestically and internationally]
Good thing we are the world's leader in defense manufacturing and defense technologies with the vast majority of it done domestically.
Assassin
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RealEstateBear said:

boognish_bear said:


Sympathy for Nike??? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

They've been employing slave labor for over half a century. New Balance doesn't have a problem with making their product in the US. Cry me a river

Nike is one of the most corrupt left-leaning businesses only headquartered in the US. This is exactly correct, They love slave labor. My last pair of Nike's lasted about 6 months. They literally fell apart
Facebook Groups at; Memories of: Dallas, Texas, Football in Texas, Texas Music, Through a Texas Lens and also Dallas History Guild. Come visit!
Adriacus Peratuun
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ATL Bear said:





Low skill manufacturing isn't coming back. And even if it did it would be low wage work and serve no economic purpose other than higher prices and increased worker risk for low pay. That was the preponderance of the oft sighted 60,000 - 90,000 factory loss (heck of a range there BTW).

Bringing manufacturing back is a capital not labor exercise, and the type of manufacturing we need is not only skilled labor, but highly skilled labor which is not only in short supply, but requires a reorientation of our education and training matrix domestically to address the short and long term lack of resources. That's before we even address the scale required to mass produce like our global competitors, the deregulation required to even contemplate it, and the supply chains necessary to execute.

Manufacturing employment beyond engineering, IT, and specialty technicians is on the bullet train of obsolescence. Why we would go to war with the world economically to try and protect it is beyond me. Don't protect, create and innovate. That's what always made us better.
Questions:

1) for people whose basic skill set aligns with manufacturing work and not "create & innovate", what exactly are they to do for employment?

2) if the USA can cost effectively run automotive assembly plants, why can't it also run automotive component manufacturing? HVAC manufacturing [easily brought back]? Similar?

3) is the USA's national defense better by destroying the manufacturing base?

4) why did the USA create an economic environment that lead to offshoring tech manufacturing?

5) how many items do you own that are created by basic manufacturing skills? Cars, HVAC, appliances, etc.?

6) how many items do you that utilize tech manufacturing? Phones, cars, computers, pads, etc.

7) how often do you make phones calls, utilize the internet, etc.?

Throwing shade on manufacturing as part of a balanced economy is very 1990s.
Mothra
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Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Frank Galvin said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

whiterock said:

Redbrickbear said:

whiterock said:

Mothra said:

whiterock said:

Robert Wilson said:

Mothra said:

boognish_bear said:

Not sure if this is accurate across the board or not… Comments seemed to indicate so


So, when I first saw the list, I thought it was actually a reciprocal tariff based on the tariffs imposed by other countries, and I thought it might not be so bad.

However, if this is truly the formula Trump used - which is based apparently on trade deficits - this is not a reciprocal tariff but instead a tariff that tries to get manufacturing to come back to the US - something that is likely never gonna happen in any large numbers.

In short, the Trump admin is misleading the American people by labeling this a reciprocal tariff. That's just a wholly false statement.

Such an entirely ridiculous and unnecessary move, and it's going to come back to bite him. Kiss the midterms goodbye. We are going to lose the House and the Senate. So dumb.

I hope Republicans who didn't skip Economics 101 will block this deal.


I'm with you. I could get on board with reciprocal tariffs. If we are instead enacting huge one sided tariffs just to counteract trade deficits, that's insane.

muddled thinking. the purpose of tariffs is to address a trade deficit, which will benefit domestic manufacturers and jobs. Whether they are reciprocal or not depends on the nature of the abuse happening, e.g. look at the way China relocates production & transshipments to avoid existing trade restrictions. This is particularly true when it comes to trade subsidies (which many countries do) and non-tariff barriers to trade like the EU VAT.

if you are going to pick this fight you have to smack hard coming out of the gate, to effectively deny entry to our market unless concessions are made. Your opponent, who has investments in an existing supply chain has to make hard decisions about whether he is going to abandon the supply chain or open up his own market to your goods. Sure, the wealthier countries will have at least theoretical options to consider, but it will take years for them to restructure and in the meantime they will incur more damage to their economy than they will inflict on ours (by virtue of having a trade surplus with us).

our position is quite strong and concessions from trade partners are a matter of when not if.
So, in other words, this is about damaging other countries' economies more than helping our own. It will take years to change supply chain and manufacturing base, but at least over the course of the next two years we can damage their economies worse than they can damage ours. In the meantime, the American people take it in the shorts.

Such a silly strategy.

The silliest strategy of all is doing nothing and accepting the status quo, which is what you are advocating.



There are a lot of people in American who see nothing wrong with the status quo

They walk out of their expensive homes in their expensive neighborhoods and see nothing wrong with the current spoils system or how the economic pie is divided up

They are going to learn (by the ballot box or the bullet) how wrong they are

The red light is flashing...and the American electorate is signaling (potentially dangerously) revolutionary impulses

[America's newly elected president may be a demagogue and a populist, but what he is above all is a revolutionary.
In hoping to make America great again, Donald Trump promises to introduce a fundamental, comprehensive and rapid transformation of American political, economic, social and cultural institutions. Such a massive change is what we mean by the term "revolution."]


https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4976570-america-has-elected-a-revolutionary-will-he-succeed/

The aversion to tariffs is a foremost luxury belief of the upper classes. THEIR careers are not impacted by a flood of cheap foreign goods……
You simpletons are absolute economic idiots. Making the working and middle class pay for their own economic demise through higher prices is one of the most evil ironies I've ever heard of.

Their economic demise was the closing down of 60,000 factories and the importing in of 40-50 million 3rd worlders to work for semi-slave wages

What multi-million dollar home in Highland Park are you posting from to be this blind to the economic realities of modern America.

Get out of the Texas Triangle and drive through America sometime


[U.S. manufacturing employment plummeted by one-third, and 60,000 U.S. factories were closed, just between 1995 and 2010]
I am guessing that "ATL Bear" doesn't live near Highland Park.

There is an absolute myth that America's lower and middle classes (economically speaking) are suffering like never before. Access to medical care, the safety net, and ease of life have never been higher. We have severe challenges, but of the scores of billions of human souls that ever existed, almost all of them would prefer to have lived in America, circa 2025.

Success in America requires education, ambition, hard work, and a responsible lifestyle. If you have and do those things, you almost certainly will have a great life. It is not my grandfather's economy or even my father's economy. But it is still a great place to live. I wish we would quit pretending otherwise.


The USA is a great place to live…I would never argue other wise

And yet at the same time it's middle and lower classes are feeling squeezed like never before…

Have you not notice the political tensions we are living under? Politico described it as "pre-revolutionary"

The middle and lower classes are voting consistently for the most outsider candidates they can find and the ones offering "change"

They are signaling with a flashing red light that they are highly discontented with the present economic arrangement.

And it does not matter that you seem to think they are just not working hard enough…

And you believe that bringing more manufacturing back to the US is going to solve all of these issues?



Solve all issues? No, you can never solve all probelms

But you can help bring back good paying jobs.....and good paying jobs help to stabilize society and stabilize communities (especially among the working and middle class)

That in turn makes everything a little easier....politics, social issues, interpersonal relationships.

Imagine tomorrow if you lost your job and could not get another....imagine if everyone you know in the Woodlands (assuming you live there) could also not find a job. What kind of effect would that have on your mental situation and on the mental situation of your family, friends, and community?

2nd and 3rd order effects and all........every real conservative should be able to understand that


[Since 1989, the tragedy of Flint's decline has been repeated in a number of Midwestern cities plagued with shrinking populations, opiate addiction, joblessness, and a pervasive feeling of hopelessness. Flint and nearby Detroit remain the worst-case scenarios of once-proud, unionized, and solidly middle class "motor cities" that have fallen into ruin. After the 2008 crisis, both had their local authority stripped away by the state of Michigan, with emergency managers replacing municipal governments. In Flint, the emergency manager terminated a water contract with the city of Detroit, preferring to draw water from the polluted Flint River and send it down aging pipes to city residents, 42 percent of whom live below the federal poverty line.

[Once a thriving industrial city of nearly a quarter million people, with most residents' employment tied in some way to automobile manufacturing, Flint's population has dwindled to less than 100,000 in the aftermath of auto plant closures during the 1980s. The city has demolished over 5,000 abandoned houses in the last decade. Today, not one grocery store exists within the city.]

[General Motors was at its peak with around 85,000 employees in the 1980s, according to David White, Genesee Historical Society President....

About 90 percent of Flint's wage, salary and shareholder earnings were estimated to come from local General Motors products in 1950, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.

Flint's population boomed from 13,000 to more than 156,000 residents between 1900 and 1930 - a 1,000 percent gain and 17-times the national growth in population, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.

The city's population continued to climb and peaked at about 200,000 in the 1960s]


https://brightthemag.com/the-fall-of-flint-e74aded576d9

Just so I am clear...

You believe a tariff that is going to - according to JP Morgan - cost the average American family an additional $5k per year,

Ask the people of Flint Michigan (and the thousands of other towns and cities that used to host 60,000-90,000 American factories) if they would pay $5k a year to stop the deindustrialization of the USA and the destruction of their way of life

Please.....
Those jobs aren't coming back in the next 2 years brother. This ain't the 70's. And putting a tax on all Americans to have a few thousand workers in Flint employed is just utterly, stupid policy.

You might be right that it will take more than 2 years to undue decades of foolish economic policy and damage.

But you are wrong if you don't think something has to be tried.....manufacturing powers are as important today for world power as they were in 1970s and as important as they were in 1870s

You either make things for consumer consumption (building up factories and worker expertise)....that can be turned toward weapons manufacturing in the event of war....or you get run over.

Ask the Ottoman Empire, ask Qing China, ask the CSA, ask anyone.......build or get crushed

[A strong manufacturing base can contribute significantly to a nation's overall power and influence...

A robust manufacturing sector can lead to economic prosperity, technological innovation, and the ability to produce goods and services that are in high demand, both domestically and internationally]
Come up with a plan that works, and let's take a look. But this plan is a load of horse *****
Mothra
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Redbrickbear said:

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:

ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:


...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.


Trump said the tariff money can be used to help eliminate income taxes. So everyone buying American wouldn't help that out...
I don't see Congress getting rid of income taxes. Get back to me when they do.
Great Scott. Tariffs are a tax on you. When Trump puts a 25% tariff on foreign cars, you will pay the difference. Tariffs are an attempt to force you to buy an American made car.

No, the foreign manufacturer will

They will cut costs and sell the car at a cheap enough price point to be competitive in the US market

Or they will move production of said car to the USA to avoid the tariff....thus creating jobs in the USA
No they won't.

I already have Honda and Toyota dealers that have marked up prices on the vehicles that have arrived since yesterday a full 10%. The idea that foreign manufacturers are going to slash prices is extremely naive.

It will take 5 years to set up manufacturing here. These countries will wait it out the next 2 years, and then when Trump loses congress and these stupid tariffs are overturned, will reclaim their market share.
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ron.reagan said:

Things can be important and also require to be subsidized. Keeping steel factories here are import and deserved to be kept open even at the cost of tax payers. GI Joe manufacturing is something we could let the market work out

Because FDR's policies did worse on prolonging the depression than did the Smoot Hawley tariffs

PS

Reagan was a good guy....he was not a demigod

He was wrong about mass migration from the 3rd world, wrong that Liberals would ever secure the border and follow through on their promises, and wrong that throwing open our markets while letting others cheat on trade would be good for the country in the long run.

Adriacus Peratuun
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:

ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:


...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.


Trump said the tariff money can be used to help eliminate income taxes. So everyone buying American wouldn't help that out...
I don't see Congress getting rid of income taxes. Get back to me when they do.
Great Scott. Tariffs are a tax on you. When Trump puts a 25% tariff on foreign cars, you will pay the difference. Tariffs are an attempt to force you to buy an American made car.

No, the foreign manufacturer will

They will cut costs and sell the car at a cheap enough price point to be competitive in the US market

Or they will move production of said car to the USA to avoid the tariff....thus creating jobs in the USA
No they won't.

I already have Honda and Toyota dealers that have marked up prices on the vehicles that have arrived since yesterday a full 10%. The idea that foreign manufacturers are going to slash prices is extremely naive.

It will take 5 years to set up manufacturing here. These countries will wait it out the next 2 years, and then when Trump loses congress and these stupid tariffs are overturned, will reclaim their market share.
The entire dispute will be done within 3-4 months.

No global business is going to effectively sideline itself in the USA for two years.
Once the pain level is fully understood, deals will be made.
Foreign business/countries might hate USA tariffs, but they hate uncertainty even more.
Mothra
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Adriacus Peratuun said:

Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:

ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:


...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.


Trump said the tariff money can be used to help eliminate income taxes. So everyone buying American wouldn't help that out...
I don't see Congress getting rid of income taxes. Get back to me when they do.
Great Scott. Tariffs are a tax on you. When Trump puts a 25% tariff on foreign cars, you will pay the difference. Tariffs are an attempt to force you to buy an American made car.

No, the foreign manufacturer will

They will cut costs and sell the car at a cheap enough price point to be competitive in the US market

Or they will move production of said car to the USA to avoid the tariff....thus creating jobs in the USA
No they won't.

I already have Honda and Toyota dealers that have marked up prices on the vehicles that have arrived since yesterday a full 10%. The idea that foreign manufacturers are going to slash prices is extremely naive.

It will take 5 years to set up manufacturing here. These countries will wait it out the next 2 years, and then when Trump loses congress and these stupid tariffs are overturned, will reclaim their market share.
The entire dispute will be done within 3-4 months.

No global business is going to effectively sideline itself in the USA for two years.
Once the pain level is fully understood, deals will be made.
Foreign business/countries might hate USA tariffs, but they hate uncertainty even more.
Sideline themselves? Of course not. They will simply pass along most of the cost of the tariffs to the American consumer, which is of course what always happens. Just like the dealerships I described above.

And of course it will be easy for the manufacturers to "promise" Trump they will rebuild their factories in Detroit, telling him what he wants to hear, while simply reneging on the deal when he loses Congress in two years or is gone in 4.
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ATL Bear said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Frank Galvin said:

Redbrickbear said:

ATL Bear said:

whiterock said:

Redbrickbear said:

whiterock said:

Mothra said:

whiterock said:

Robert Wilson said:

Mothra said:

boognish_bear said:

Not sure if this is accurate across the board or not… Comments seemed to indicate so


So, when I first saw the list, I thought it was actually a reciprocal tariff based on the tariffs imposed by other countries, and I thought it might not be so bad.

However, if this is truly the formula Trump used - which is based apparently on trade deficits - this is not a reciprocal tariff but instead a tariff that tries to get manufacturing to come back to the US - something that is likely never gonna happen in any large numbers.

In short, the Trump admin is misleading the American people by labeling this a reciprocal tariff. That's just a wholly false statement.

Such an entirely ridiculous and unnecessary move, and it's going to come back to bite him. Kiss the midterms goodbye. We are going to lose the House and the Senate. So dumb.

I hope Republicans who didn't skip Economics 101 will block this deal.


I'm with you. I could get on board with reciprocal tariffs. If we are instead enacting huge one sided tariffs just to counteract trade deficits, that's insane.

muddled thinking. the purpose of tariffs is to address a trade deficit, which will benefit domestic manufacturers and jobs. Whether they are reciprocal or not depends on the nature of the abuse happening, e.g. look at the way China relocates production & transshipments to avoid existing trade restrictions. This is particularly true when it comes to trade subsidies (which many countries do) and non-tariff barriers to trade like the EU VAT.

if you are going to pick this fight you have to smack hard coming out of the gate, to effectively deny entry to our market unless concessions are made. Your opponent, who has investments in an existing supply chain has to make hard decisions about whether he is going to abandon the supply chain or open up his own market to your goods. Sure, the wealthier countries will have at least theoretical options to consider, but it will take years for them to restructure and in the meantime they will incur more damage to their economy than they will inflict on ours (by virtue of having a trade surplus with us).

our position is quite strong and concessions from trade partners are a matter of when not if.
So, in other words, this is about damaging other countries' economies more than helping our own. It will take years to change supply chain and manufacturing base, but at least over the course of the next two years we can damage their economies worse than they can damage ours. In the meantime, the American people take it in the shorts.

Such a silly strategy.

The silliest strategy of all is doing nothing and accepting the status quo, which is what you are advocating.



There are a lot of people in American who see nothing wrong with the status quo

They walk out of their expensive homes in their expensive neighborhoods and see nothing wrong with the current spoils system or how the economic pie is divided up

They are going to learn (by the ballot box or the bullet) how wrong they are

The red light is flashing...and the American electorate is signaling (potentially dangerously) revolutionary impulses

[America's newly elected president may be a demagogue and a populist, but what he is above all is a revolutionary.
In hoping to make America great again, Donald Trump promises to introduce a fundamental, comprehensive and rapid transformation of American political, economic, social and cultural institutions. Such a massive change is what we mean by the term "revolution."]


https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4976570-america-has-elected-a-revolutionary-will-he-succeed/

The aversion to tariffs is a foremost luxury belief of the upper classes. THEIR careers are not impacted by a flood of cheap foreign goods……
You simpletons are absolute economic idiots. Making the working and middle class pay for their own economic demise through higher prices is one of the most evil ironies I've ever heard of.

Their economic demise was the closing down of 60,000 factories and the importing in of 40-50 million 3rd worlders to work for semi-slave wages

What multi-million dollar home in Highland Park are you posting from to be this blind to the economic realities of modern America.

Get out of the Texas Triangle and drive through America sometime


[U.S. manufacturing employment plummeted by one-third, and 60,000 U.S. factories were closed, just between 1995 and 2010]
I am guessing that "ATL Bear" doesn't live near Highland Park.

There is an absolute myth that America's lower and middle classes (economically speaking) are suffering like never before. Access to medical care, the safety net, and ease of life have never been higher. We have severe challenges, but of the scores of billions of human souls that ever existed, almost all of them would prefer to have lived in America, circa 2025.

Success in America requires education, ambition, hard work, and a responsible lifestyle. If you have and do those things, you almost certainly will have a great life. It is not my grandfather's economy or even my father's economy. But it is still a great place to live. I wish we would quit pretending otherwise.


The USA is a great place to live…I would never argue other wise

And yet at the same time it's middle and lower classes are feeling squeezed like never before…

Have you not notice the political tensions we are living under? Politico described it as "pre-revolutionary"

The middle and lower classes are voting consistently for the most outsider candidates they can find and the ones offering "change"

They are signaling with a flashing red light that they are highly discontented with the present economic arrangement.

And it does not matter that you seem to think they are just not working hard enough…

And you believe that bringing more manufacturing back to the US is going to solve all of these issues?



Solve all issues? No, you can never solve all probelms

But you can help bring back good paying jobs.....and good paying jobs help to stabilize society and stabilize communities (especially among the working and middle class)

That in turn makes everything a little easier....politics, social issues, interpersonal relationships.

Imagine tomorrow if you lost your job and could not get another....imagine if everyone you know in the Woodlands (assuming you live there) could also not find a job. What kind of effect would that have on your mental situation and on the mental situation of your family, friends, and community?

2nd and 3rd order effects and all........every real conservative should be able to understand that


[Since 1989, the tragedy of Flint's decline has been repeated in a number of Midwestern cities plagued with shrinking populations, opiate addiction, joblessness, and a pervasive feeling of hopelessness. Flint and nearby Detroit remain the worst-case scenarios of once-proud, unionized, and solidly middle class "motor cities" that have fallen into ruin. After the 2008 crisis, both had their local authority stripped away by the state of Michigan, with emergency managers replacing municipal governments. In Flint, the emergency manager terminated a water contract with the city of Detroit, preferring to draw water from the polluted Flint River and send it down aging pipes to city residents, 42 percent of whom live below the federal poverty line.

[Once a thriving industrial city of nearly a quarter million people, with most residents' employment tied in some way to automobile manufacturing, Flint's population has dwindled to less than 100,000 in the aftermath of auto plant closures during the 1980s. The city has demolished over 5,000 abandoned houses in the last decade. Today, not one grocery store exists within the city.]

[General Motors was at its peak with around 85,000 employees in the 1980s, according to David White, Genesee Historical Society President....

About 90 percent of Flint's wage, salary and shareholder earnings were estimated to come from local General Motors products in 1950, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.

Flint's population boomed from 13,000 to more than 156,000 residents between 1900 and 1930 - a 1,000 percent gain and 17-times the national growth in population, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.

The city's population continued to climb and peaked at about 200,000 in the 1960s]


https://brightthemag.com/the-fall-of-flint-e74aded576d9

Just so I am clear...

You believe a tariff that is going to - according to JP Morgan - cost the average American family an additional $5k per year,

Ask the people of Flint Michigan (and the thousands of other towns and cities that used to host 60,000-90,000 American factories) if they would pay $5k a year to stop the deindustrialization of the USA and the destruction of their way of life

Please.....
Those jobs aren't coming back in the next 2 years brother. This ain't the 70's. And putting a tax on all Americans to have a few thousand workers in Flint employed is just utterly, stupid policy.

You might be right that it will take more than 2 years to undue decades of foolish economic policy and damage.

But you are wrong if you don't think something has to be tried.....manufacturing powers are as important today for world power as they were in 1970s and as important as they were in 1870s

You either make things for consumer consumption (building up factories and worker expertise)....that can be turned toward weapons manufacturing in the event of war....or you get run over.

Ask the Ottoman Empire, ask Qing China, ask the CSA, ask anyone.......build or get crushed

[A strong manufacturing base can contribute significantly to a nation's overall power and influence...

A robust manufacturing sector can lead to economic prosperity, technological innovation, and the ability to produce goods and services that are in high demand, both domestically and internationally]
Good thing we are the world's leader in defense manufacturing and defense technologies with the vast majority of it done domestically.

And and we had listen to some we would have sent those well paid manufacturing jobs and critical factories overseas as well.....
Adriacus Peratuun
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Mothra said:

Adriacus Peratuun said:

Mothra said:

Redbrickbear said:

Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:

ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:

ScottS said:

boognish_bear said:


...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.


Trump said the tariff money can be used to help eliminate income taxes. So everyone buying American wouldn't help that out...
I don't see Congress getting rid of income taxes. Get back to me when they do.
Great Scott. Tariffs are a tax on you. When Trump puts a 25% tariff on foreign cars, you will pay the difference. Tariffs are an attempt to force you to buy an American made car.

No, the foreign manufacturer will

They will cut costs and sell the car at a cheap enough price point to be competitive in the US market

Or they will move production of said car to the USA to avoid the tariff....thus creating jobs in the USA
No they won't.

I already have Honda and Toyota dealers that have marked up prices on the vehicles that have arrived since yesterday a full 10%. The idea that foreign manufacturers are going to slash prices is extremely naive.

It will take 5 years to set up manufacturing here. These countries will wait it out the next 2 years, and then when Trump loses congress and these stupid tariffs are overturned, will reclaim their market share.
The entire dispute will be done within 3-4 months.

No global business is going to effectively sideline itself in the USA for two years.
Once the pain level is fully understood, deals will be made.
Foreign business/countries might hate USA tariffs, but they hate uncertainty even more.
Sideline themselves? Of course not. They will simply pass along most of the cost of the tariffs to the American consumer, which is of course what always happens. Just like the dealerships I described above.

And of course it will be easy for the manufacturers to "promise" Trump they will rebuild their factories in Detroit, telling him what he wants to hear, while simply reneging on the deal when he loses Congress in two years or is gone in 4.
Disagree. Some behavior will immediately change. Easy deals will get finalized. Future work will get papered [enforceable].

Example: possible BMW

Immediate: radically change marketing to heavily emphasize all X series [made in Spartanburg].

Easy: begin process to move 2 series production from San Luis Potos plant in Mexico to USA. the 3 production there remains.

Future: deal to manufacture some inline 4 engines in USA, leave the inline 6 production entirely in Germany.

There is zero chance that Japan sits down to negotiate with USA and Germany remains outside shaking their fist. No major player is going to let the basic parameters of future deals be struck while they protest outside.

Free Trade purists might behave like Greta Thunberg, countries will not.



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