Certain industries and their pet politicians will continue to scream but the public at large will generally get onboard. Momentum is a weird factor to calculate.
Almost none of them will, but it won't take very many. There are going to be some GOP reps whose districts will take huge hits under these tariffs. They are signing their termination slips if they don't do something.Mothra said:You sure about that? Think enough Republicans in the House will cross him? I am not so confident.Porteroso said:By the way, it won't get to that point. Tariffs are not the purview of the President. He has to declare an emergency to get to this point, and it is trivial for Congress to say "nope" at any time. Congress will not actually allow the global economy to crater, no matter how loved Trump is.Redbrickbear said:Porteroso said:That is a great personal policy for you to have as an individual, but it is a long term restructuring policy of the global economy policy to have, as a country. The question has to be asked, what evidence is there that America will be better off if we effectively close ourselves off to global trade?Redbrickbear said:Porteroso said:It will all trickle back to the consumer. Whether you pay more for made in USA, or more because Chinese goods are 54% more expensive, you are paying more. Tariffs are effectively a tax upon consumers.ScottS said:...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.boognish_bear said:JUST IN: 🇺🇸 JPMorgan says President Trump's tariffs are the largest US tax hike since 1968.
— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) April 3, 2025
Pay more so Americans can have better jobs? Count me in
Not to mention you are going to pay no matter what system you chose.
Even without tariffs you pay....in the real life sense of societal break down and via helping Communist China rise to be a world power.
There is no free lunch....and even free trade has its long term costs....and those costs will come due
As I've said, if this ends up being mostly tariffs on China, and we get better deals with most other countries, I can be for that. But as it was proposed, it's a declaration of economic war upon the free market, and that will not go well.
Lost in this is what Republicans used to say was a core value: the free market.
1. We are NOT closing ourselves off to global trade (we could be an Autarky if we wanted....but we don't)
A sensible tariff program is about evening out the inequalities of global trade....everyone can still enter and compete inside the American market
BMW will still be here selling cars for instance.
Global Trade will keep taking place....globalism will not end
2. The real bedrock values of the Republican party were: free soil/anti-slavery, Gold standard, and protective tariffs
Important to remember that was the real GOP for its history
If that was the case then the Chinese foreign minister would not be screaming bloody murder...and he isMothra said:Red's idea that this is going to hurt China is absurd. China is going to make a killing on this.Porteroso said:That is a great personal policy for you to have as an individual, but it is a long term restructuring policy of the global economy policy to have, as a country. The question has to be asked, what evidence is there that America will be better off if we effectively close ourselves off to global trade?Redbrickbear said:Porteroso said:It will all trickle back to the consumer. Whether you pay more for made in USA, or more because Chinese goods are 54% more expensive, you are paying more. Tariffs are effectively a tax upon consumers.ScottS said:...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.boognish_bear said:JUST IN: 🇺🇸 JPMorgan says President Trump's tariffs are the largest US tax hike since 1968.
— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) April 3, 2025
Pay more so Americans can have better jobs? Count me in
Not to mention you are going to pay no matter what system you chose.
Even without tariffs you pay....in the real life sense of societal break down and via helping Communist China rise to be a world power.
There is no free lunch....and even free trade has its long term costs....and those costs will come due
As I've said, if this ends up being mostly tariffs on China, and we get better deals with most other countries, I can be for that. But as it was proposed, it's a declaration of economic war upon the free market, and that will not go well.
Lost in this is what Republicans used to say was a core value: the free market. If Trump does negotiate in good faith and get many countries to eliminate their tariffs upon US goods, the free market will benefit. If he does not negotiate, and no matter what a country like Vietnam says (they say they will eliminate all tariffs on US goods.... that's a wrap, right?), he goes forward with tariffs, this will be a major blow to free trade not only globally, but especially in the USA.
No President or Congress has ever taken it upon themself to declare war on free trade, not even the most liberal. To have this done by a Republican, and backed by conservatives, is yet another total flip flop driven by the GOP's total admiration for their Dear Leader.
Will the number of those Rs outpace the number of Ds who support tariffs? At least one D has publicly come out in support.Frank Galvin said:Almost none of them will, but it won't take very many. There are going to be some GOP reps whose districts will take huge hits under these tariffs. They are signing their termination slips if they don't do something.Mothra said:You sure about that? Think enough Republicans in the House will cross him? I am not so confident.Porteroso said:By the way, it won't get to that point. Tariffs are not the purview of the President. He has to declare an emergency to get to this point, and it is trivial for Congress to say "nope" at any time. Congress will not actually allow the global economy to crater, no matter how loved Trump is.Redbrickbear said:Porteroso said:That is a great personal policy for you to have as an individual, but it is a long term restructuring policy of the global economy policy to have, as a country. The question has to be asked, what evidence is there that America will be better off if we effectively close ourselves off to global trade?Redbrickbear said:Porteroso said:It will all trickle back to the consumer. Whether you pay more for made in USA, or more because Chinese goods are 54% more expensive, you are paying more. Tariffs are effectively a tax upon consumers.ScottS said:...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.boognish_bear said:JUST IN: 🇺🇸 JPMorgan says President Trump's tariffs are the largest US tax hike since 1968.
— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) April 3, 2025
Pay more so Americans can have better jobs? Count me in
Not to mention you are going to pay no matter what system you chose.
Even without tariffs you pay....in the real life sense of societal break down and via helping Communist China rise to be a world power.
There is no free lunch....and even free trade has its long term costs....and those costs will come due
As I've said, if this ends up being mostly tariffs on China, and we get better deals with most other countries, I can be for that. But as it was proposed, it's a declaration of economic war upon the free market, and that will not go well.
Lost in this is what Republicans used to say was a core value: the free market.
1. We are NOT closing ourselves off to global trade (we could be an Autarky if we wanted....but we don't)
A sensible tariff program is about evening out the inequalities of global trade....everyone can still enter and compete inside the American market
BMW will still be here selling cars for instance.
Global Trade will keep taking place....globalism will not end
2. The real bedrock values of the Republican party were: free soil/anti-slavery, Gold standard, and protective tariffs
Important to remember that was the real GOP for its history
What is a new and more balanced arrangement? Some of these countries have lower tariffs than the US. They could do like Israel - get rid of tariffs altogether - and still get smacked with a 30% tariff (like Israel). So what can they do? Try to get their citizens, many of whom have an average income that is a fraction of the income of American citizens, to buy more American products to reduce the trade imbalance? How does that work exactly when they are having trouble putting food on their tables?Adriacus Peratuun said:
How many countries opting out of a fight and instead making new more balanced arrangements creates unstoppable momentum to support tariffs?
Certain industries and their pet politicians will continue to scream but the public at large will generally get onboard. Momentum is a weird factor to calculate.
Yes it is. But at present, it is hard to see how this policy has momentum.Adriacus Peratuun said:
How many countries opting out of a fight and instead making new more balanced arrangements creates unstoppable momentum to support tariffs?
Certain industries and their pet politicians will continue to scream but the public at large will generally get onboard. Momentum is a weird factor to calculate.
Mothra said:Just so I am clear...Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:And you believe that bringing more manufacturing back to the US is going to solve all of these issues?Redbrickbear said:Frank Galvin said:I am guessing that "ATL Bear" doesn't live near Highland Park.Redbrickbear said:ATL Bear said:You simpletons are absolute economic idiots. Making the working and middle class pay for their own economic demise through higher prices is one of the most evil ironies I've ever heard of.whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Mothra said:So, in other words, this is about damaging other countries' economies more than helping our own. It will take years to change supply chain and manufacturing base, but at least over the course of the next two years we can damage their economies worse than they can damage ours. In the meantime, the American people take it in the shorts.whiterock said:muddled thinking. the purpose of tariffs is to address a trade deficit, which will benefit domestic manufacturers and jobs. Whether they are reciprocal or not depends on the nature of the abuse happening, e.g. look at the way China relocates production & transshipments to avoid existing trade restrictions. This is particularly true when it comes to trade subsidies (which many countries do) and non-tariff barriers to trade like the EU VAT.Robert Wilson said:Mothra said:So, when I first saw the list, I thought it was actually a reciprocal tariff based on the tariffs imposed by other countries, and I thought it might not be so bad.boognish_bear said:
Not sure if this is accurate across the board or not… Comments seemed to indicate soThis guy cracked the tariff formula:@orthonormalist
— Geiger Capital (@Geiger_Capital) April 2, 2025
It’s simply the nation’s trade deficit with us divided by the nation’s exports to us.
Yes. Really.
Vietnam: Exports 136.6, Imports 13.1
Deficit = 123.5
123.5/136.6 = 90% pic.twitter.com/fDOMoQwzKt
However, if this is truly the formula Trump used - which is based apparently on trade deficits - this is not a reciprocal tariff but instead a tariff that tries to get manufacturing to come back to the US - something that is likely never gonna happen in any large numbers.
In short, the Trump admin is misleading the American people by labeling this a reciprocal tariff. That's just a wholly false statement.
Such an entirely ridiculous and unnecessary move, and it's going to come back to bite him. Kiss the midterms goodbye. We are going to lose the House and the Senate. So dumb.
I hope Republicans who didn't skip Economics 101 will block this deal.
I'm with you. I could get on board with reciprocal tariffs. If we are instead enacting huge one sided tariffs just to counteract trade deficits, that's insane.
if you are going to pick this fight you have to smack hard coming out of the gate, to effectively deny entry to our market unless concessions are made. Your opponent, who has investments in an existing supply chain has to make hard decisions about whether he is going to abandon the supply chain or open up his own market to your goods. Sure, the wealthier countries will have at least theoretical options to consider, but it will take years for them to restructure and in the meantime they will incur more damage to their economy than they will inflict on ours (by virtue of having a trade surplus with us).
our position is quite strong and concessions from trade partners are a matter of when not if.
Such a silly strategy.
The silliest strategy of all is doing nothing and accepting the status quo, which is what you are advocating.
There are a lot of people in American who see nothing wrong with the status quo
They walk out of their expensive homes in their expensive neighborhoods and see nothing wrong with the current spoils system or how the economic pie is divided up
They are going to learn (by the ballot box or the bullet) how wrong they are
The red light is flashing...and the American electorate is signaling (potentially dangerously) revolutionary impulses
[America's newly elected president may be a demagogue and a populist, but what he is above all is a revolutionary.
In hoping to make America great again, Donald Trump promises to introduce a fundamental, comprehensive and rapid transformation of American political, economic, social and cultural institutions. Such a massive change is what we mean by the term "revolution."]
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4976570-america-has-elected-a-revolutionary-will-he-succeed/
The aversion to tariffs is a foremost luxury belief of the upper classes. THEIR careers are not impacted by a flood of cheap foreign goods……
Their economic demise was the closing down of 60,000 factories and the importing in of 40-50 million 3rd worlders to work for semi-slave wages
What multi-million dollar home in Highland Park are you posting from to be this blind to the economic realities of modern America.
Get out of the Texas Triangle and drive through America sometime
[U.S. manufacturing employment plummeted by one-third, and 60,000 U.S. factories were closed, just between 1995 and 2010]
There is an absolute myth that America's lower and middle classes (economically speaking) are suffering like never before. Access to medical care, the safety net, and ease of life have never been higher. We have severe challenges, but of the scores of billions of human souls that ever existed, almost all of them would prefer to have lived in America, circa 2025.
Success in America requires education, ambition, hard work, and a responsible lifestyle. If you have and do those things, you almost certainly will have a great life. It is not my grandfather's economy or even my father's economy. But it is still a great place to live. I wish we would quit pretending otherwise.
The USA is a great place to live…I would never argue other wise
And yet at the same time it's middle and lower classes are feeling squeezed like never before…
Have you not notice the political tensions we are living under? Politico described it as "pre-revolutionary"
The middle and lower classes are voting consistently for the most outsider candidates they can find and the ones offering "change"
They are signaling with a flashing red light that they are highly discontented with the present economic arrangement.
And it does not matter that you seem to think they are just not working hard enough…
Solve all issues? No, you can never solve all probelms
But you can help bring back good paying jobs.....and good paying jobs help to stabilize society and stabilize communities (especially among the working and middle class)
That in turn makes everything a little easier....politics, social issues, interpersonal relationships.
Imagine tomorrow if you lost your job and could not get another....imagine if everyone you know in the Woodlands (assuming you live there) could also not find a job. What kind of effect would that have on your mental situation and on the mental situation of your family, friends, and community?
2nd and 3rd order effects and all........every real conservative should be able to understand that
[Since 1989, the tragedy of Flint's decline has been repeated in a number of Midwestern cities plagued with shrinking populations, opiate addiction, joblessness, and a pervasive feeling of hopelessness. Flint and nearby Detroit remain the worst-case scenarios of once-proud, unionized, and solidly middle class "motor cities" that have fallen into ruin. After the 2008 crisis, both had their local authority stripped away by the state of Michigan, with emergency managers replacing municipal governments. In Flint, the emergency manager terminated a water contract with the city of Detroit, preferring to draw water from the polluted Flint River and send it down aging pipes to city residents, 42 percent of whom live below the federal poverty line.
[Once a thriving industrial city of nearly a quarter million people, with most residents' employment tied in some way to automobile manufacturing, Flint's population has dwindled to less than 100,000 in the aftermath of auto plant closures during the 1980s. The city has demolished over 5,000 abandoned houses in the last decade. Today, not one grocery store exists within the city.]
[General Motors was at its peak with around 85,000 employees in the 1980s, according to David White, Genesee Historical Society President....
About 90 percent of Flint's wage, salary and shareholder earnings were estimated to come from local General Motors products in 1950, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.
Flint's population boomed from 13,000 to more than 156,000 residents between 1900 and 1930 - a 1,000 percent gain and 17-times the national growth in population, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.
The city's population continued to climb and peaked at about 200,000 in the 1960s]
https://brightthemag.com/the-fall-of-flint-e74aded576d9
You believe a tariff that is going to - according to JP Morgan - cost the average American family an additional $5k per year,
BREAKING: Trump's tariffs — if sustained — likely to push the U.S. and globe into recession, says JPMorgan, $JPM
— unusual_whales (@unusual_whales) April 4, 2025
ron.reagan said:
Yeah, I'm not sure we are going to have a competitive country if we go back to paying union workers $70/hour to sweep the floor.
Your argument is based upon a false assumption. That a global tariff scheme is intended to have equal long term impact across the globe.Mothra said:What is a new and more balanced arrangement? Some of these countries have lower tariffs than the US. They could do like Israel - get rid of tariffs altogether - and still get smacked with a 30% tariff (like Israel). So what can they do? Try to get their citizens, many of whom have an average income that is a fraction of the income of American citizens, to buy more American products to reduce the trade imbalance? How does that work exactly when they are having trouble putting food on their tables?Adriacus Peratuun said:
How many countries opting out of a fight and instead making new more balanced arrangements creates unstoppable momentum to support tariffs?
Certain industries and their pet politicians will continue to scream but the public at large will generally get onboard. Momentum is a weird factor to calculate.
Let's drop the silly charade that this is some sort of reciprocal tariff. It's not and never was.
Prepare for the re-retaliatory tariffs. pic.twitter.com/Hmd6UnkMSa
— Geiger Capital (@Geiger_Capital) April 4, 2025
Those jobs aren't coming back in the next 2 years brother. This ain't the 70's. And putting a tax on all Americans to have a few thousand workers in Flint employed is just utterly, stupid policy.Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:Just so I am clear...Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:And you believe that bringing more manufacturing back to the US is going to solve all of these issues?Redbrickbear said:Frank Galvin said:I am guessing that "ATL Bear" doesn't live near Highland Park.Redbrickbear said:ATL Bear said:You simpletons are absolute economic idiots. Making the working and middle class pay for their own economic demise through higher prices is one of the most evil ironies I've ever heard of.whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Mothra said:So, in other words, this is about damaging other countries' economies more than helping our own. It will take years to change supply chain and manufacturing base, but at least over the course of the next two years we can damage their economies worse than they can damage ours. In the meantime, the American people take it in the shorts.whiterock said:muddled thinking. the purpose of tariffs is to address a trade deficit, which will benefit domestic manufacturers and jobs. Whether they are reciprocal or not depends on the nature of the abuse happening, e.g. look at the way China relocates production & transshipments to avoid existing trade restrictions. This is particularly true when it comes to trade subsidies (which many countries do) and non-tariff barriers to trade like the EU VAT.Robert Wilson said:Mothra said:So, when I first saw the list, I thought it was actually a reciprocal tariff based on the tariffs imposed by other countries, and I thought it might not be so bad.boognish_bear said:
Not sure if this is accurate across the board or not… Comments seemed to indicate soThis guy cracked the tariff formula:@orthonormalist
— Geiger Capital (@Geiger_Capital) April 2, 2025
It’s simply the nation’s trade deficit with us divided by the nation’s exports to us.
Yes. Really.
Vietnam: Exports 136.6, Imports 13.1
Deficit = 123.5
123.5/136.6 = 90% pic.twitter.com/fDOMoQwzKt
However, if this is truly the formula Trump used - which is based apparently on trade deficits - this is not a reciprocal tariff but instead a tariff that tries to get manufacturing to come back to the US - something that is likely never gonna happen in any large numbers.
In short, the Trump admin is misleading the American people by labeling this a reciprocal tariff. That's just a wholly false statement.
Such an entirely ridiculous and unnecessary move, and it's going to come back to bite him. Kiss the midterms goodbye. We are going to lose the House and the Senate. So dumb.
I hope Republicans who didn't skip Economics 101 will block this deal.
I'm with you. I could get on board with reciprocal tariffs. If we are instead enacting huge one sided tariffs just to counteract trade deficits, that's insane.
if you are going to pick this fight you have to smack hard coming out of the gate, to effectively deny entry to our market unless concessions are made. Your opponent, who has investments in an existing supply chain has to make hard decisions about whether he is going to abandon the supply chain or open up his own market to your goods. Sure, the wealthier countries will have at least theoretical options to consider, but it will take years for them to restructure and in the meantime they will incur more damage to their economy than they will inflict on ours (by virtue of having a trade surplus with us).
our position is quite strong and concessions from trade partners are a matter of when not if.
Such a silly strategy.
The silliest strategy of all is doing nothing and accepting the status quo, which is what you are advocating.
There are a lot of people in American who see nothing wrong with the status quo
They walk out of their expensive homes in their expensive neighborhoods and see nothing wrong with the current spoils system or how the economic pie is divided up
They are going to learn (by the ballot box or the bullet) how wrong they are
The red light is flashing...and the American electorate is signaling (potentially dangerously) revolutionary impulses
[America's newly elected president may be a demagogue and a populist, but what he is above all is a revolutionary.
In hoping to make America great again, Donald Trump promises to introduce a fundamental, comprehensive and rapid transformation of American political, economic, social and cultural institutions. Such a massive change is what we mean by the term "revolution."]
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4976570-america-has-elected-a-revolutionary-will-he-succeed/
The aversion to tariffs is a foremost luxury belief of the upper classes. THEIR careers are not impacted by a flood of cheap foreign goods……
Their economic demise was the closing down of 60,000 factories and the importing in of 40-50 million 3rd worlders to work for semi-slave wages
What multi-million dollar home in Highland Park are you posting from to be this blind to the economic realities of modern America.
Get out of the Texas Triangle and drive through America sometime
[U.S. manufacturing employment plummeted by one-third, and 60,000 U.S. factories were closed, just between 1995 and 2010]
There is an absolute myth that America's lower and middle classes (economically speaking) are suffering like never before. Access to medical care, the safety net, and ease of life have never been higher. We have severe challenges, but of the scores of billions of human souls that ever existed, almost all of them would prefer to have lived in America, circa 2025.
Success in America requires education, ambition, hard work, and a responsible lifestyle. If you have and do those things, you almost certainly will have a great life. It is not my grandfather's economy or even my father's economy. But it is still a great place to live. I wish we would quit pretending otherwise.
The USA is a great place to live…I would never argue other wise
And yet at the same time it's middle and lower classes are feeling squeezed like never before…
Have you not notice the political tensions we are living under? Politico described it as "pre-revolutionary"
The middle and lower classes are voting consistently for the most outsider candidates they can find and the ones offering "change"
They are signaling with a flashing red light that they are highly discontented with the present economic arrangement.
And it does not matter that you seem to think they are just not working hard enough…
Solve all issues? No, you can never solve all probelms
But you can help bring back good paying jobs.....and good paying jobs help to stabilize society and stabilize communities (especially among the working and middle class)
That in turn makes everything a little easier....politics, social issues, interpersonal relationships.
Imagine tomorrow if you lost your job and could not get another....imagine if everyone you know in the Woodlands (assuming you live there) could also not find a job. What kind of effect would that have on your mental situation and on the mental situation of your family, friends, and community?
2nd and 3rd order effects and all........every real conservative should be able to understand that
[Since 1989, the tragedy of Flint's decline has been repeated in a number of Midwestern cities plagued with shrinking populations, opiate addiction, joblessness, and a pervasive feeling of hopelessness. Flint and nearby Detroit remain the worst-case scenarios of once-proud, unionized, and solidly middle class "motor cities" that have fallen into ruin. After the 2008 crisis, both had their local authority stripped away by the state of Michigan, with emergency managers replacing municipal governments. In Flint, the emergency manager terminated a water contract with the city of Detroit, preferring to draw water from the polluted Flint River and send it down aging pipes to city residents, 42 percent of whom live below the federal poverty line.
[Once a thriving industrial city of nearly a quarter million people, with most residents' employment tied in some way to automobile manufacturing, Flint's population has dwindled to less than 100,000 in the aftermath of auto plant closures during the 1980s. The city has demolished over 5,000 abandoned houses in the last decade. Today, not one grocery store exists within the city.]
[General Motors was at its peak with around 85,000 employees in the 1980s, according to David White, Genesee Historical Society President....
About 90 percent of Flint's wage, salary and shareholder earnings were estimated to come from local General Motors products in 1950, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.
Flint's population boomed from 13,000 to more than 156,000 residents between 1900 and 1930 - a 1,000 percent gain and 17-times the national growth in population, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.
The city's population continued to climb and peaked at about 200,000 in the 1960s]
https://brightthemag.com/the-fall-of-flint-e74aded576d9
You believe a tariff that is going to - according to JP Morgan - cost the average American family an additional $5k per year,
Ask the people of Flint Michigan (and the thousands of other towns and cities that used to host 60,000-90,000 American factories) if they would pay $5k a year to stop the deindustrialization of the USA and the destruction of their way of life
Please.....
We will see if it works.Adriacus Peratuun said:Your argument is based upon a false assumption. That a global tariff scheme is intended to have equal long term impact across the globe.Mothra said:What is a new and more balanced arrangement? Some of these countries have lower tariffs than the US. They could do like Israel - get rid of tariffs altogether - and still get smacked with a 30% tariff (like Israel). So what can they do? Try to get their citizens, many of whom have an average income that is a fraction of the income of American citizens, to buy more American products to reduce the trade imbalance? How does that work exactly when they are having trouble putting food on their tables?Adriacus Peratuun said:
How many countries opting out of a fight and instead making new more balanced arrangements creates unstoppable momentum to support tariffs?
Certain industries and their pet politicians will continue to scream but the public at large will generally get onboard. Momentum is a weird factor to calculate.
Let's drop the silly charade that this is some sort of reciprocal tariff. It's not and never was.
Squeezing everyone serves multiple purposes.
1) lock up some early easy wins.
2) deal making by "not the true targets" puts pressure on the true targets to deal.
End game:
Germany buying LNG from us and telling Russia to kick sand.
Kill all of the preferential deals that China has negotiated in the developing world.
Stop all of the undercover Airbus subsidies.
Get tech manufacturing back in the USA [to some degree]
Teach India a harsh lesson
And similar………
JUST IN: Trump posted this video on Truth Social: "Trump is purposely crashing the stock market." pic.twitter.com/4s2gN5aNRT
— unusual_whales (@unusual_whales) April 4, 2025
Mothra said:Those jobs aren't coming back in the next 2 years brother. This ain't the 70's. And putting a tax on all Americans to have a few thousand workers in Flint employed is just utterly, stupid policy.Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:Just so I am clear...Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:And you believe that bringing more manufacturing back to the US is going to solve all of these issues?Redbrickbear said:Frank Galvin said:I am guessing that "ATL Bear" doesn't live near Highland Park.Redbrickbear said:ATL Bear said:You simpletons are absolute economic idiots. Making the working and middle class pay for their own economic demise through higher prices is one of the most evil ironies I've ever heard of.whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Mothra said:So, in other words, this is about damaging other countries' economies more than helping our own. It will take years to change supply chain and manufacturing base, but at least over the course of the next two years we can damage their economies worse than they can damage ours. In the meantime, the American people take it in the shorts.whiterock said:muddled thinking. the purpose of tariffs is to address a trade deficit, which will benefit domestic manufacturers and jobs. Whether they are reciprocal or not depends on the nature of the abuse happening, e.g. look at the way China relocates production & transshipments to avoid existing trade restrictions. This is particularly true when it comes to trade subsidies (which many countries do) and non-tariff barriers to trade like the EU VAT.Robert Wilson said:Mothra said:So, when I first saw the list, I thought it was actually a reciprocal tariff based on the tariffs imposed by other countries, and I thought it might not be so bad.boognish_bear said:
Not sure if this is accurate across the board or not… Comments seemed to indicate soThis guy cracked the tariff formula:@orthonormalist
— Geiger Capital (@Geiger_Capital) April 2, 2025
It’s simply the nation’s trade deficit with us divided by the nation’s exports to us.
Yes. Really.
Vietnam: Exports 136.6, Imports 13.1
Deficit = 123.5
123.5/136.6 = 90% pic.twitter.com/fDOMoQwzKt
However, if this is truly the formula Trump used - which is based apparently on trade deficits - this is not a reciprocal tariff but instead a tariff that tries to get manufacturing to come back to the US - something that is likely never gonna happen in any large numbers.
In short, the Trump admin is misleading the American people by labeling this a reciprocal tariff. That's just a wholly false statement.
Such an entirely ridiculous and unnecessary move, and it's going to come back to bite him. Kiss the midterms goodbye. We are going to lose the House and the Senate. So dumb.
I hope Republicans who didn't skip Economics 101 will block this deal.
I'm with you. I could get on board with reciprocal tariffs. If we are instead enacting huge one sided tariffs just to counteract trade deficits, that's insane.
if you are going to pick this fight you have to smack hard coming out of the gate, to effectively deny entry to our market unless concessions are made. Your opponent, who has investments in an existing supply chain has to make hard decisions about whether he is going to abandon the supply chain or open up his own market to your goods. Sure, the wealthier countries will have at least theoretical options to consider, but it will take years for them to restructure and in the meantime they will incur more damage to their economy than they will inflict on ours (by virtue of having a trade surplus with us).
our position is quite strong and concessions from trade partners are a matter of when not if.
Such a silly strategy.
The silliest strategy of all is doing nothing and accepting the status quo, which is what you are advocating.
There are a lot of people in American who see nothing wrong with the status quo
They walk out of their expensive homes in their expensive neighborhoods and see nothing wrong with the current spoils system or how the economic pie is divided up
They are going to learn (by the ballot box or the bullet) how wrong they are
The red light is flashing...and the American electorate is signaling (potentially dangerously) revolutionary impulses
[America's newly elected president may be a demagogue and a populist, but what he is above all is a revolutionary.
In hoping to make America great again, Donald Trump promises to introduce a fundamental, comprehensive and rapid transformation of American political, economic, social and cultural institutions. Such a massive change is what we mean by the term "revolution."]
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4976570-america-has-elected-a-revolutionary-will-he-succeed/
The aversion to tariffs is a foremost luxury belief of the upper classes. THEIR careers are not impacted by a flood of cheap foreign goods……
Their economic demise was the closing down of 60,000 factories and the importing in of 40-50 million 3rd worlders to work for semi-slave wages
What multi-million dollar home in Highland Park are you posting from to be this blind to the economic realities of modern America.
Get out of the Texas Triangle and drive through America sometime
[U.S. manufacturing employment plummeted by one-third, and 60,000 U.S. factories were closed, just between 1995 and 2010]
There is an absolute myth that America's lower and middle classes (economically speaking) are suffering like never before. Access to medical care, the safety net, and ease of life have never been higher. We have severe challenges, but of the scores of billions of human souls that ever existed, almost all of them would prefer to have lived in America, circa 2025.
Success in America requires education, ambition, hard work, and a responsible lifestyle. If you have and do those things, you almost certainly will have a great life. It is not my grandfather's economy or even my father's economy. But it is still a great place to live. I wish we would quit pretending otherwise.
The USA is a great place to live…I would never argue other wise
And yet at the same time it's middle and lower classes are feeling squeezed like never before…
Have you not notice the political tensions we are living under? Politico described it as "pre-revolutionary"
The middle and lower classes are voting consistently for the most outsider candidates they can find and the ones offering "change"
They are signaling with a flashing red light that they are highly discontented with the present economic arrangement.
And it does not matter that you seem to think they are just not working hard enough…
Solve all issues? No, you can never solve all probelms
But you can help bring back good paying jobs.....and good paying jobs help to stabilize society and stabilize communities (especially among the working and middle class)
That in turn makes everything a little easier....politics, social issues, interpersonal relationships.
Imagine tomorrow if you lost your job and could not get another....imagine if everyone you know in the Woodlands (assuming you live there) could also not find a job. What kind of effect would that have on your mental situation and on the mental situation of your family, friends, and community?
2nd and 3rd order effects and all........every real conservative should be able to understand that
[Since 1989, the tragedy of Flint's decline has been repeated in a number of Midwestern cities plagued with shrinking populations, opiate addiction, joblessness, and a pervasive feeling of hopelessness. Flint and nearby Detroit remain the worst-case scenarios of once-proud, unionized, and solidly middle class "motor cities" that have fallen into ruin. After the 2008 crisis, both had their local authority stripped away by the state of Michigan, with emergency managers replacing municipal governments. In Flint, the emergency manager terminated a water contract with the city of Detroit, preferring to draw water from the polluted Flint River and send it down aging pipes to city residents, 42 percent of whom live below the federal poverty line.
[Once a thriving industrial city of nearly a quarter million people, with most residents' employment tied in some way to automobile manufacturing, Flint's population has dwindled to less than 100,000 in the aftermath of auto plant closures during the 1980s. The city has demolished over 5,000 abandoned houses in the last decade. Today, not one grocery store exists within the city.]
[General Motors was at its peak with around 85,000 employees in the 1980s, according to David White, Genesee Historical Society President....
About 90 percent of Flint's wage, salary and shareholder earnings were estimated to come from local General Motors products in 1950, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.
Flint's population boomed from 13,000 to more than 156,000 residents between 1900 and 1930 - a 1,000 percent gain and 17-times the national growth in population, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.
The city's population continued to climb and peaked at about 200,000 in the 1960s]
https://brightthemag.com/the-fall-of-flint-e74aded576d9
You believe a tariff that is going to - according to JP Morgan - cost the average American family an additional $5k per year,
Ask the people of Flint Michigan (and the thousands of other towns and cities that used to host 60,000-90,000 American factories) if they would pay $5k a year to stop the deindustrialization of the USA and the destruction of their way of life
Please.....
JUST IN: The Trump administration has put a 10% tariff on the Heard Island and McDonald which has a population of 0 people and is inhabited only by penguins, per NYP
— unusual_whales (@unusual_whales) April 3, 2025
My guess it is because of the seals. Very bad hombres but I assume some are goodboognish_bear said:
Mars will be nextJUST IN: The Trump administration has put a 10% tariff on the Heard Island and McDonald which has a population of 0 people and is inhabited only by penguins, per NYP
— unusual_whales (@unusual_whales) April 3, 2025
Great Scott. Tariffs are a tax on you. When Trump puts a 25% tariff on foriegn cars, you will pay the difference. Tariffs are an attempt to force you to buy an American made car.ScottS said:I don't see Congress getting rid of income taxes. Get back to me when they do.boognish_bear said:ScottS said:...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.boognish_bear said:JUST IN: 🇺🇸 JPMorgan says President Trump's tariffs are the largest US tax hike since 1968.
— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) April 3, 2025
Trump said the tariff money can be used to help eliminate income taxes. So everyone buying American wouldn't help that out...
Clarification…….foreign manufactured cars not foreign brand cars.Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:Great Scott. Tariffs are a tax on you. When Trump puts a 25% tariff on foriegn cars, you will pay the difference. Tariffs are an attempt to force you to buy an American made car.ScottS said:I don't see Congress getting rid of income taxes. Get back to me when they do.boognish_bear said:ScottS said:...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.boognish_bear said:JUST IN: 🇺🇸 JPMorgan says President Trump's tariffs are the largest US tax hike since 1968.
— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) April 3, 2025
Trump said the tariff money can be used to help eliminate income taxes. So everyone buying American wouldn't help that out...
Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:Great Scott. Tariffs are a tax on you. When Trump puts a 25% tariff on foreign cars, you will pay the difference. Tariffs are an attempt to force you to buy an American made car.ScottS said:I don't see Congress getting rid of income taxes. Get back to me when they do.boognish_bear said:ScottS said:...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.boognish_bear said:JUST IN: 🇺🇸 JPMorgan says President Trump's tariffs are the largest US tax hike since 1968.
— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) April 3, 2025
Trump said the tariff money can be used to help eliminate income taxes. So everyone buying American wouldn't help that out...
assembling plants, so not much differenceAdriacus Peratuun said:Clarification…….foreign manufactured cars not foreign brand cars.Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:Great Scott. Tariffs are a tax on you. When Trump puts a 25% tariff on foriegn cars, you will pay the difference. Tariffs are an attempt to force you to buy an American made car.ScottS said:I don't see Congress getting rid of income taxes. Get back to me when they do.boognish_bear said:ScottS said:...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.boognish_bear said:JUST IN: 🇺🇸 JPMorgan says President Trump's tariffs are the largest US tax hike since 1968.
— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) April 3, 2025
Trump said the tariff money can be used to help eliminate income taxes. So everyone buying American wouldn't help that out...
There are plenty of foreign brand cars manufactured in Alabama, Mississippi, the Carolinas, Tennessee, etc.
Granted that engines & drive trains will continue to be built in Japan & Germany [and almost every chip in Taiwan……a different issue], but everything else can be grabbed back from Canada & Mexico. The USA can cost-effectively manufacture many automotive components.ron.reagan said:assembling plants, so not much differenceAdriacus Peratuun said:Clarification…….foreign manufactured cars not foreign brand cars.Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:Great Scott. Tariffs are a tax on you. When Trump puts a 25% tariff on foriegn cars, you will pay the difference. Tariffs are an attempt to force you to buy an American made car.ScottS said:I don't see Congress getting rid of income taxes. Get back to me when they do.boognish_bear said:ScottS said:...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.boognish_bear said:JUST IN: 🇺🇸 JPMorgan says President Trump's tariffs are the largest US tax hike since 1968.
— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) April 3, 2025
Trump said the tariff money can be used to help eliminate income taxes. So everyone buying American wouldn't help that out...
There are plenty of foreign brand cars manufactured in Alabama, Mississippi, the Carolinas, Tennessee, etc.
Low skill manufacturing isn't coming back. And even if it did it would be low wage work and serve no economic purpose other than higher prices and increased worker risk for low pay. That was the preponderance of the oft sighted 60,000 - 90,000 factory loss (heck of a range there BTW).Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:Those jobs aren't coming back in the next 2 years brother. This ain't the 70's. And putting a tax on all Americans to have a few thousand workers in Flint employed is just utterly, stupid policy.Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:Just so I am clear...Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:And you believe that bringing more manufacturing back to the US is going to solve all of these issues?Redbrickbear said:Frank Galvin said:I am guessing that "ATL Bear" doesn't live near Highland Park.Redbrickbear said:ATL Bear said:You simpletons are absolute economic idiots. Making the working and middle class pay for their own economic demise through higher prices is one of the most evil ironies I've ever heard of.whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Mothra said:So, in other words, this is about damaging other countries' economies more than helping our own. It will take years to change supply chain and manufacturing base, but at least over the course of the next two years we can damage their economies worse than they can damage ours. In the meantime, the American people take it in the shorts.whiterock said:muddled thinking. the purpose of tariffs is to address a trade deficit, which will benefit domestic manufacturers and jobs. Whether they are reciprocal or not depends on the nature of the abuse happening, e.g. look at the way China relocates production & transshipments to avoid existing trade restrictions. This is particularly true when it comes to trade subsidies (which many countries do) and non-tariff barriers to trade like the EU VAT.Robert Wilson said:Mothra said:So, when I first saw the list, I thought it was actually a reciprocal tariff based on the tariffs imposed by other countries, and I thought it might not be so bad.boognish_bear said:
Not sure if this is accurate across the board or not… Comments seemed to indicate soThis guy cracked the tariff formula:@orthonormalist
— Geiger Capital (@Geiger_Capital) April 2, 2025
It’s simply the nation’s trade deficit with us divided by the nation’s exports to us.
Yes. Really.
Vietnam: Exports 136.6, Imports 13.1
Deficit = 123.5
123.5/136.6 = 90% pic.twitter.com/fDOMoQwzKt
However, if this is truly the formula Trump used - which is based apparently on trade deficits - this is not a reciprocal tariff but instead a tariff that tries to get manufacturing to come back to the US - something that is likely never gonna happen in any large numbers.
In short, the Trump admin is misleading the American people by labeling this a reciprocal tariff. That's just a wholly false statement.
Such an entirely ridiculous and unnecessary move, and it's going to come back to bite him. Kiss the midterms goodbye. We are going to lose the House and the Senate. So dumb.
I hope Republicans who didn't skip Economics 101 will block this deal.
I'm with you. I could get on board with reciprocal tariffs. If we are instead enacting huge one sided tariffs just to counteract trade deficits, that's insane.
if you are going to pick this fight you have to smack hard coming out of the gate, to effectively deny entry to our market unless concessions are made. Your opponent, who has investments in an existing supply chain has to make hard decisions about whether he is going to abandon the supply chain or open up his own market to your goods. Sure, the wealthier countries will have at least theoretical options to consider, but it will take years for them to restructure and in the meantime they will incur more damage to their economy than they will inflict on ours (by virtue of having a trade surplus with us).
our position is quite strong and concessions from trade partners are a matter of when not if.
Such a silly strategy.
The silliest strategy of all is doing nothing and accepting the status quo, which is what you are advocating.
There are a lot of people in American who see nothing wrong with the status quo
They walk out of their expensive homes in their expensive neighborhoods and see nothing wrong with the current spoils system or how the economic pie is divided up
They are going to learn (by the ballot box or the bullet) how wrong they are
The red light is flashing...and the American electorate is signaling (potentially dangerously) revolutionary impulses
[America's newly elected president may be a demagogue and a populist, but what he is above all is a revolutionary.
In hoping to make America great again, Donald Trump promises to introduce a fundamental, comprehensive and rapid transformation of American political, economic, social and cultural institutions. Such a massive change is what we mean by the term "revolution."]
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4976570-america-has-elected-a-revolutionary-will-he-succeed/
The aversion to tariffs is a foremost luxury belief of the upper classes. THEIR careers are not impacted by a flood of cheap foreign goods……
Their economic demise was the closing down of 60,000 factories and the importing in of 40-50 million 3rd worlders to work for semi-slave wages
What multi-million dollar home in Highland Park are you posting from to be this blind to the economic realities of modern America.
Get out of the Texas Triangle and drive through America sometime
[U.S. manufacturing employment plummeted by one-third, and 60,000 U.S. factories were closed, just between 1995 and 2010]
There is an absolute myth that America's lower and middle classes (economically speaking) are suffering like never before. Access to medical care, the safety net, and ease of life have never been higher. We have severe challenges, but of the scores of billions of human souls that ever existed, almost all of them would prefer to have lived in America, circa 2025.
Success in America requires education, ambition, hard work, and a responsible lifestyle. If you have and do those things, you almost certainly will have a great life. It is not my grandfather's economy or even my father's economy. But it is still a great place to live. I wish we would quit pretending otherwise.
The USA is a great place to live…I would never argue other wise
And yet at the same time it's middle and lower classes are feeling squeezed like never before…
Have you not notice the political tensions we are living under? Politico described it as "pre-revolutionary"
The middle and lower classes are voting consistently for the most outsider candidates they can find and the ones offering "change"
They are signaling with a flashing red light that they are highly discontented with the present economic arrangement.
And it does not matter that you seem to think they are just not working hard enough…
Solve all issues? No, you can never solve all probelms
But you can help bring back good paying jobs.....and good paying jobs help to stabilize society and stabilize communities (especially among the working and middle class)
That in turn makes everything a little easier....politics, social issues, interpersonal relationships.
Imagine tomorrow if you lost your job and could not get another....imagine if everyone you know in the Woodlands (assuming you live there) could also not find a job. What kind of effect would that have on your mental situation and on the mental situation of your family, friends, and community?
2nd and 3rd order effects and all........every real conservative should be able to understand that
[Since 1989, the tragedy of Flint's decline has been repeated in a number of Midwestern cities plagued with shrinking populations, opiate addiction, joblessness, and a pervasive feeling of hopelessness. Flint and nearby Detroit remain the worst-case scenarios of once-proud, unionized, and solidly middle class "motor cities" that have fallen into ruin. After the 2008 crisis, both had their local authority stripped away by the state of Michigan, with emergency managers replacing municipal governments. In Flint, the emergency manager terminated a water contract with the city of Detroit, preferring to draw water from the polluted Flint River and send it down aging pipes to city residents, 42 percent of whom live below the federal poverty line.
[Once a thriving industrial city of nearly a quarter million people, with most residents' employment tied in some way to automobile manufacturing, Flint's population has dwindled to less than 100,000 in the aftermath of auto plant closures during the 1980s. The city has demolished over 5,000 abandoned houses in the last decade. Today, not one grocery store exists within the city.]
[General Motors was at its peak with around 85,000 employees in the 1980s, according to David White, Genesee Historical Society President....
About 90 percent of Flint's wage, salary and shareholder earnings were estimated to come from local General Motors products in 1950, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.
Flint's population boomed from 13,000 to more than 156,000 residents between 1900 and 1930 - a 1,000 percent gain and 17-times the national growth in population, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.
The city's population continued to climb and peaked at about 200,000 in the 1960s]
https://brightthemag.com/the-fall-of-flint-e74aded576d9
You believe a tariff that is going to - according to JP Morgan - cost the average American family an additional $5k per year,
Ask the people of Flint Michigan (and the thousands of other towns and cities that used to host 60,000-90,000 American factories) if they would pay $5k a year to stop the deindustrialization of the USA and the destruction of their way of life
Please.....
You might be right that it will take more than 2 years to undue decades of foolish economic policy and damage.
But you are wrong if you don't think something has to be tried.....manufacturing powers are as important today for world power as they were in 1970s and as important as they were in 1870s
You either make things for consumer consumption (building up factories and worker expertise)....that can be turned toward weapons manufacturing in the event of war....or you get run over.
Ask the Ottoman Empire, ask Qing China, ask the CSA, ask anyone.......build or get crushed
[A strong manufacturing base can contribute significantly to a nation's overall power and influence...
A robust manufacturing sector can lead to economic prosperity, technological innovation, and the ability to produce goods and services that are in high demand, both domestically and internationally]
Good thing we are the world's leader in defense manufacturing and defense technologies with the vast majority of it done domestically.Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:Those jobs aren't coming back in the next 2 years brother. This ain't the 70's. And putting a tax on all Americans to have a few thousand workers in Flint employed is just utterly, stupid policy.Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:Just so I am clear...Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:And you believe that bringing more manufacturing back to the US is going to solve all of these issues?Redbrickbear said:Frank Galvin said:I am guessing that "ATL Bear" doesn't live near Highland Park.Redbrickbear said:ATL Bear said:You simpletons are absolute economic idiots. Making the working and middle class pay for their own economic demise through higher prices is one of the most evil ironies I've ever heard of.whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Mothra said:So, in other words, this is about damaging other countries' economies more than helping our own. It will take years to change supply chain and manufacturing base, but at least over the course of the next two years we can damage their economies worse than they can damage ours. In the meantime, the American people take it in the shorts.whiterock said:muddled thinking. the purpose of tariffs is to address a trade deficit, which will benefit domestic manufacturers and jobs. Whether they are reciprocal or not depends on the nature of the abuse happening, e.g. look at the way China relocates production & transshipments to avoid existing trade restrictions. This is particularly true when it comes to trade subsidies (which many countries do) and non-tariff barriers to trade like the EU VAT.Robert Wilson said:Mothra said:So, when I first saw the list, I thought it was actually a reciprocal tariff based on the tariffs imposed by other countries, and I thought it might not be so bad.boognish_bear said:
Not sure if this is accurate across the board or not… Comments seemed to indicate soThis guy cracked the tariff formula:@orthonormalist
— Geiger Capital (@Geiger_Capital) April 2, 2025
It’s simply the nation’s trade deficit with us divided by the nation’s exports to us.
Yes. Really.
Vietnam: Exports 136.6, Imports 13.1
Deficit = 123.5
123.5/136.6 = 90% pic.twitter.com/fDOMoQwzKt
However, if this is truly the formula Trump used - which is based apparently on trade deficits - this is not a reciprocal tariff but instead a tariff that tries to get manufacturing to come back to the US - something that is likely never gonna happen in any large numbers.
In short, the Trump admin is misleading the American people by labeling this a reciprocal tariff. That's just a wholly false statement.
Such an entirely ridiculous and unnecessary move, and it's going to come back to bite him. Kiss the midterms goodbye. We are going to lose the House and the Senate. So dumb.
I hope Republicans who didn't skip Economics 101 will block this deal.
I'm with you. I could get on board with reciprocal tariffs. If we are instead enacting huge one sided tariffs just to counteract trade deficits, that's insane.
if you are going to pick this fight you have to smack hard coming out of the gate, to effectively deny entry to our market unless concessions are made. Your opponent, who has investments in an existing supply chain has to make hard decisions about whether he is going to abandon the supply chain or open up his own market to your goods. Sure, the wealthier countries will have at least theoretical options to consider, but it will take years for them to restructure and in the meantime they will incur more damage to their economy than they will inflict on ours (by virtue of having a trade surplus with us).
our position is quite strong and concessions from trade partners are a matter of when not if.
Such a silly strategy.
The silliest strategy of all is doing nothing and accepting the status quo, which is what you are advocating.
There are a lot of people in American who see nothing wrong with the status quo
They walk out of their expensive homes in their expensive neighborhoods and see nothing wrong with the current spoils system or how the economic pie is divided up
They are going to learn (by the ballot box or the bullet) how wrong they are
The red light is flashing...and the American electorate is signaling (potentially dangerously) revolutionary impulses
[America's newly elected president may be a demagogue and a populist, but what he is above all is a revolutionary.
In hoping to make America great again, Donald Trump promises to introduce a fundamental, comprehensive and rapid transformation of American political, economic, social and cultural institutions. Such a massive change is what we mean by the term "revolution."]
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4976570-america-has-elected-a-revolutionary-will-he-succeed/
The aversion to tariffs is a foremost luxury belief of the upper classes. THEIR careers are not impacted by a flood of cheap foreign goods……
Their economic demise was the closing down of 60,000 factories and the importing in of 40-50 million 3rd worlders to work for semi-slave wages
What multi-million dollar home in Highland Park are you posting from to be this blind to the economic realities of modern America.
Get out of the Texas Triangle and drive through America sometime
[U.S. manufacturing employment plummeted by one-third, and 60,000 U.S. factories were closed, just between 1995 and 2010]
There is an absolute myth that America's lower and middle classes (economically speaking) are suffering like never before. Access to medical care, the safety net, and ease of life have never been higher. We have severe challenges, but of the scores of billions of human souls that ever existed, almost all of them would prefer to have lived in America, circa 2025.
Success in America requires education, ambition, hard work, and a responsible lifestyle. If you have and do those things, you almost certainly will have a great life. It is not my grandfather's economy or even my father's economy. But it is still a great place to live. I wish we would quit pretending otherwise.
The USA is a great place to live…I would never argue other wise
And yet at the same time it's middle and lower classes are feeling squeezed like never before…
Have you not notice the political tensions we are living under? Politico described it as "pre-revolutionary"
The middle and lower classes are voting consistently for the most outsider candidates they can find and the ones offering "change"
They are signaling with a flashing red light that they are highly discontented with the present economic arrangement.
And it does not matter that you seem to think they are just not working hard enough…
Solve all issues? No, you can never solve all probelms
But you can help bring back good paying jobs.....and good paying jobs help to stabilize society and stabilize communities (especially among the working and middle class)
That in turn makes everything a little easier....politics, social issues, interpersonal relationships.
Imagine tomorrow if you lost your job and could not get another....imagine if everyone you know in the Woodlands (assuming you live there) could also not find a job. What kind of effect would that have on your mental situation and on the mental situation of your family, friends, and community?
2nd and 3rd order effects and all........every real conservative should be able to understand that
[Since 1989, the tragedy of Flint's decline has been repeated in a number of Midwestern cities plagued with shrinking populations, opiate addiction, joblessness, and a pervasive feeling of hopelessness. Flint and nearby Detroit remain the worst-case scenarios of once-proud, unionized, and solidly middle class "motor cities" that have fallen into ruin. After the 2008 crisis, both had their local authority stripped away by the state of Michigan, with emergency managers replacing municipal governments. In Flint, the emergency manager terminated a water contract with the city of Detroit, preferring to draw water from the polluted Flint River and send it down aging pipes to city residents, 42 percent of whom live below the federal poverty line.
[Once a thriving industrial city of nearly a quarter million people, with most residents' employment tied in some way to automobile manufacturing, Flint's population has dwindled to less than 100,000 in the aftermath of auto plant closures during the 1980s. The city has demolished over 5,000 abandoned houses in the last decade. Today, not one grocery store exists within the city.]
[General Motors was at its peak with around 85,000 employees in the 1980s, according to David White, Genesee Historical Society President....
About 90 percent of Flint's wage, salary and shareholder earnings were estimated to come from local General Motors products in 1950, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.
Flint's population boomed from 13,000 to more than 156,000 residents between 1900 and 1930 - a 1,000 percent gain and 17-times the national growth in population, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.
The city's population continued to climb and peaked at about 200,000 in the 1960s]
https://brightthemag.com/the-fall-of-flint-e74aded576d9
You believe a tariff that is going to - according to JP Morgan - cost the average American family an additional $5k per year,
Ask the people of Flint Michigan (and the thousands of other towns and cities that used to host 60,000-90,000 American factories) if they would pay $5k a year to stop the deindustrialization of the USA and the destruction of their way of life
Please.....
You might be right that it will take more than 2 years to undue decades of foolish economic policy and damage.
But you are wrong if you don't think something has to be tried.....manufacturing powers are as important today for world power as they were in 1970s and as important as they were in 1870s
You either make things for consumer consumption (building up factories and worker expertise)....that can be turned toward weapons manufacturing in the event of war....or you get run over.
Ask the Ottoman Empire, ask Qing China, ask the CSA, ask anyone.......build or get crushed
[A strong manufacturing base can contribute significantly to a nation's overall power and influence...
A robust manufacturing sector can lead to economic prosperity, technological innovation, and the ability to produce goods and services that are in high demand, both domestically and internationally]
Nike is one of the most corrupt left-leaning businesses only headquartered in the US. This is exactly correct, They love slave labor. My last pair of Nike's lasted about 6 months. They literally fell apartRealEstateBear said:Sympathy for Nike??? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLboognish_bear said:Nike won't build factories in the U.S. to make sneakers. That would add more cost than the 40% tariffs. Plus, they need to stay competitive selling to customers in other countries that don't impose tariffs. The result will be fewer sneakers sold in the U.S. at much higher prices.
— Peter Schiff (@PeterSchiff) April 3, 2025
They've been employing slave labor for over half a century. New Balance doesn't have a problem with making their product in the US. Cry me a river
Questions:ATL Bear said:
Low skill manufacturing isn't coming back. And even if it did it would be low wage work and serve no economic purpose other than higher prices and increased worker risk for low pay. That was the preponderance of the oft sighted 60,000 - 90,000 factory loss (heck of a range there BTW).
Bringing manufacturing back is a capital not labor exercise, and the type of manufacturing we need is not only skilled labor, but highly skilled labor which is not only in short supply, but requires a reorientation of our education and training matrix domestically to address the short and long term lack of resources. That's before we even address the scale required to mass produce like our global competitors, the deregulation required to even contemplate it, and the supply chains necessary to execute.
Manufacturing employment beyond engineering, IT, and specialty technicians is on the bullet train of obsolescence. Why we would go to war with the world economically to try and protect it is beyond me. Don't protect, create and innovate. That's what always made us better.
Come up with a plan that works, and let's take a look. But this plan is a load of horse *****Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:Those jobs aren't coming back in the next 2 years brother. This ain't the 70's. And putting a tax on all Americans to have a few thousand workers in Flint employed is just utterly, stupid policy.Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:Just so I am clear...Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:And you believe that bringing more manufacturing back to the US is going to solve all of these issues?Redbrickbear said:Frank Galvin said:I am guessing that "ATL Bear" doesn't live near Highland Park.Redbrickbear said:ATL Bear said:You simpletons are absolute economic idiots. Making the working and middle class pay for their own economic demise through higher prices is one of the most evil ironies I've ever heard of.whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Mothra said:So, in other words, this is about damaging other countries' economies more than helping our own. It will take years to change supply chain and manufacturing base, but at least over the course of the next two years we can damage their economies worse than they can damage ours. In the meantime, the American people take it in the shorts.whiterock said:muddled thinking. the purpose of tariffs is to address a trade deficit, which will benefit domestic manufacturers and jobs. Whether they are reciprocal or not depends on the nature of the abuse happening, e.g. look at the way China relocates production & transshipments to avoid existing trade restrictions. This is particularly true when it comes to trade subsidies (which many countries do) and non-tariff barriers to trade like the EU VAT.Robert Wilson said:Mothra said:So, when I first saw the list, I thought it was actually a reciprocal tariff based on the tariffs imposed by other countries, and I thought it might not be so bad.boognish_bear said:
Not sure if this is accurate across the board or not… Comments seemed to indicate soThis guy cracked the tariff formula:@orthonormalist
— Geiger Capital (@Geiger_Capital) April 2, 2025
It’s simply the nation’s trade deficit with us divided by the nation’s exports to us.
Yes. Really.
Vietnam: Exports 136.6, Imports 13.1
Deficit = 123.5
123.5/136.6 = 90% pic.twitter.com/fDOMoQwzKt
However, if this is truly the formula Trump used - which is based apparently on trade deficits - this is not a reciprocal tariff but instead a tariff that tries to get manufacturing to come back to the US - something that is likely never gonna happen in any large numbers.
In short, the Trump admin is misleading the American people by labeling this a reciprocal tariff. That's just a wholly false statement.
Such an entirely ridiculous and unnecessary move, and it's going to come back to bite him. Kiss the midterms goodbye. We are going to lose the House and the Senate. So dumb.
I hope Republicans who didn't skip Economics 101 will block this deal.
I'm with you. I could get on board with reciprocal tariffs. If we are instead enacting huge one sided tariffs just to counteract trade deficits, that's insane.
if you are going to pick this fight you have to smack hard coming out of the gate, to effectively deny entry to our market unless concessions are made. Your opponent, who has investments in an existing supply chain has to make hard decisions about whether he is going to abandon the supply chain or open up his own market to your goods. Sure, the wealthier countries will have at least theoretical options to consider, but it will take years for them to restructure and in the meantime they will incur more damage to their economy than they will inflict on ours (by virtue of having a trade surplus with us).
our position is quite strong and concessions from trade partners are a matter of when not if.
Such a silly strategy.
The silliest strategy of all is doing nothing and accepting the status quo, which is what you are advocating.
There are a lot of people in American who see nothing wrong with the status quo
They walk out of their expensive homes in their expensive neighborhoods and see nothing wrong with the current spoils system or how the economic pie is divided up
They are going to learn (by the ballot box or the bullet) how wrong they are
The red light is flashing...and the American electorate is signaling (potentially dangerously) revolutionary impulses
[America's newly elected president may be a demagogue and a populist, but what he is above all is a revolutionary.
In hoping to make America great again, Donald Trump promises to introduce a fundamental, comprehensive and rapid transformation of American political, economic, social and cultural institutions. Such a massive change is what we mean by the term "revolution."]
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4976570-america-has-elected-a-revolutionary-will-he-succeed/
The aversion to tariffs is a foremost luxury belief of the upper classes. THEIR careers are not impacted by a flood of cheap foreign goods……
Their economic demise was the closing down of 60,000 factories and the importing in of 40-50 million 3rd worlders to work for semi-slave wages
What multi-million dollar home in Highland Park are you posting from to be this blind to the economic realities of modern America.
Get out of the Texas Triangle and drive through America sometime
[U.S. manufacturing employment plummeted by one-third, and 60,000 U.S. factories were closed, just between 1995 and 2010]
There is an absolute myth that America's lower and middle classes (economically speaking) are suffering like never before. Access to medical care, the safety net, and ease of life have never been higher. We have severe challenges, but of the scores of billions of human souls that ever existed, almost all of them would prefer to have lived in America, circa 2025.
Success in America requires education, ambition, hard work, and a responsible lifestyle. If you have and do those things, you almost certainly will have a great life. It is not my grandfather's economy or even my father's economy. But it is still a great place to live. I wish we would quit pretending otherwise.
The USA is a great place to live…I would never argue other wise
And yet at the same time it's middle and lower classes are feeling squeezed like never before…
Have you not notice the political tensions we are living under? Politico described it as "pre-revolutionary"
The middle and lower classes are voting consistently for the most outsider candidates they can find and the ones offering "change"
They are signaling with a flashing red light that they are highly discontented with the present economic arrangement.
And it does not matter that you seem to think they are just not working hard enough…
Solve all issues? No, you can never solve all probelms
But you can help bring back good paying jobs.....and good paying jobs help to stabilize society and stabilize communities (especially among the working and middle class)
That in turn makes everything a little easier....politics, social issues, interpersonal relationships.
Imagine tomorrow if you lost your job and could not get another....imagine if everyone you know in the Woodlands (assuming you live there) could also not find a job. What kind of effect would that have on your mental situation and on the mental situation of your family, friends, and community?
2nd and 3rd order effects and all........every real conservative should be able to understand that
[Since 1989, the tragedy of Flint's decline has been repeated in a number of Midwestern cities plagued with shrinking populations, opiate addiction, joblessness, and a pervasive feeling of hopelessness. Flint and nearby Detroit remain the worst-case scenarios of once-proud, unionized, and solidly middle class "motor cities" that have fallen into ruin. After the 2008 crisis, both had their local authority stripped away by the state of Michigan, with emergency managers replacing municipal governments. In Flint, the emergency manager terminated a water contract with the city of Detroit, preferring to draw water from the polluted Flint River and send it down aging pipes to city residents, 42 percent of whom live below the federal poverty line.
[Once a thriving industrial city of nearly a quarter million people, with most residents' employment tied in some way to automobile manufacturing, Flint's population has dwindled to less than 100,000 in the aftermath of auto plant closures during the 1980s. The city has demolished over 5,000 abandoned houses in the last decade. Today, not one grocery store exists within the city.]
[General Motors was at its peak with around 85,000 employees in the 1980s, according to David White, Genesee Historical Society President....
About 90 percent of Flint's wage, salary and shareholder earnings were estimated to come from local General Motors products in 1950, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.
Flint's population boomed from 13,000 to more than 156,000 residents between 1900 and 1930 - a 1,000 percent gain and 17-times the national growth in population, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.
The city's population continued to climb and peaked at about 200,000 in the 1960s]
https://brightthemag.com/the-fall-of-flint-e74aded576d9
You believe a tariff that is going to - according to JP Morgan - cost the average American family an additional $5k per year,
Ask the people of Flint Michigan (and the thousands of other towns and cities that used to host 60,000-90,000 American factories) if they would pay $5k a year to stop the deindustrialization of the USA and the destruction of their way of life
Please.....
You might be right that it will take more than 2 years to undue decades of foolish economic policy and damage.
But you are wrong if you don't think something has to be tried.....manufacturing powers are as important today for world power as they were in 1970s and as important as they were in 1870s
You either make things for consumer consumption (building up factories and worker expertise)....that can be turned toward weapons manufacturing in the event of war....or you get run over.
Ask the Ottoman Empire, ask Qing China, ask the CSA, ask anyone.......build or get crushed
[A strong manufacturing base can contribute significantly to a nation's overall power and influence...
A robust manufacturing sector can lead to economic prosperity, technological innovation, and the ability to produce goods and services that are in high demand, both domestically and internationally]
No they won't.Redbrickbear said:Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:Great Scott. Tariffs are a tax on you. When Trump puts a 25% tariff on foreign cars, you will pay the difference. Tariffs are an attempt to force you to buy an American made car.ScottS said:I don't see Congress getting rid of income taxes. Get back to me when they do.boognish_bear said:ScottS said:...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.boognish_bear said:JUST IN: 🇺🇸 JPMorgan says President Trump's tariffs are the largest US tax hike since 1968.
— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) April 3, 2025
Trump said the tariff money can be used to help eliminate income taxes. So everyone buying American wouldn't help that out...
No, the foreign manufacturer will
They will cut costs and sell the car at a cheap enough price point to be competitive in the US market
Or they will move production of said car to the USA to avoid the tariff....thus creating jobs in the USA
ron.reagan said:
Things can be important and also require to be subsidized. Keeping steel factories here are import and deserved to be kept open even at the cost of tax payers. GI Joe manufacturing is something we could let the market work out
The entire dispute will be done within 3-4 months.Mothra said:No they won't.Redbrickbear said:Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:Great Scott. Tariffs are a tax on you. When Trump puts a 25% tariff on foreign cars, you will pay the difference. Tariffs are an attempt to force you to buy an American made car.ScottS said:I don't see Congress getting rid of income taxes. Get back to me when they do.boognish_bear said:ScottS said:...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.boognish_bear said:JUST IN: 🇺🇸 JPMorgan says President Trump's tariffs are the largest US tax hike since 1968.
— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) April 3, 2025
Trump said the tariff money can be used to help eliminate income taxes. So everyone buying American wouldn't help that out...
No, the foreign manufacturer will
They will cut costs and sell the car at a cheap enough price point to be competitive in the US market
Or they will move production of said car to the USA to avoid the tariff....thus creating jobs in the USA
I already have Honda and Toyota dealers that have marked up prices on the vehicles that have arrived since yesterday a full 10%. The idea that foreign manufacturers are going to slash prices is extremely naive.
It will take 5 years to set up manufacturing here. These countries will wait it out the next 2 years, and then when Trump loses congress and these stupid tariffs are overturned, will reclaim their market share.
Sideline themselves? Of course not. They will simply pass along most of the cost of the tariffs to the American consumer, which is of course what always happens. Just like the dealerships I described above.Adriacus Peratuun said:The entire dispute will be done within 3-4 months.Mothra said:No they won't.Redbrickbear said:Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:Great Scott. Tariffs are a tax on you. When Trump puts a 25% tariff on foreign cars, you will pay the difference. Tariffs are an attempt to force you to buy an American made car.ScottS said:I don't see Congress getting rid of income taxes. Get back to me when they do.boognish_bear said:ScottS said:...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.boognish_bear said:JUST IN: 🇺🇸 JPMorgan says President Trump's tariffs are the largest US tax hike since 1968.
— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) April 3, 2025
Trump said the tariff money can be used to help eliminate income taxes. So everyone buying American wouldn't help that out...
No, the foreign manufacturer will
They will cut costs and sell the car at a cheap enough price point to be competitive in the US market
Or they will move production of said car to the USA to avoid the tariff....thus creating jobs in the USA
I already have Honda and Toyota dealers that have marked up prices on the vehicles that have arrived since yesterday a full 10%. The idea that foreign manufacturers are going to slash prices is extremely naive.
It will take 5 years to set up manufacturing here. These countries will wait it out the next 2 years, and then when Trump loses congress and these stupid tariffs are overturned, will reclaim their market share.
No global business is going to effectively sideline itself in the USA for two years.
Once the pain level is fully understood, deals will be made.
Foreign business/countries might hate USA tariffs, but they hate uncertainty even more.
ATL Bear said:Good thing we are the world's leader in defense manufacturing and defense technologies with the vast majority of it done domestically.Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:Those jobs aren't coming back in the next 2 years brother. This ain't the 70's. And putting a tax on all Americans to have a few thousand workers in Flint employed is just utterly, stupid policy.Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:Just so I am clear...Redbrickbear said:Mothra said:And you believe that bringing more manufacturing back to the US is going to solve all of these issues?Redbrickbear said:Frank Galvin said:I am guessing that "ATL Bear" doesn't live near Highland Park.Redbrickbear said:ATL Bear said:You simpletons are absolute economic idiots. Making the working and middle class pay for their own economic demise through higher prices is one of the most evil ironies I've ever heard of.whiterock said:Redbrickbear said:whiterock said:Mothra said:So, in other words, this is about damaging other countries' economies more than helping our own. It will take years to change supply chain and manufacturing base, but at least over the course of the next two years we can damage their economies worse than they can damage ours. In the meantime, the American people take it in the shorts.whiterock said:muddled thinking. the purpose of tariffs is to address a trade deficit, which will benefit domestic manufacturers and jobs. Whether they are reciprocal or not depends on the nature of the abuse happening, e.g. look at the way China relocates production & transshipments to avoid existing trade restrictions. This is particularly true when it comes to trade subsidies (which many countries do) and non-tariff barriers to trade like the EU VAT.Robert Wilson said:Mothra said:So, when I first saw the list, I thought it was actually a reciprocal tariff based on the tariffs imposed by other countries, and I thought it might not be so bad.boognish_bear said:
Not sure if this is accurate across the board or not… Comments seemed to indicate soThis guy cracked the tariff formula:@orthonormalist
— Geiger Capital (@Geiger_Capital) April 2, 2025
It’s simply the nation’s trade deficit with us divided by the nation’s exports to us.
Yes. Really.
Vietnam: Exports 136.6, Imports 13.1
Deficit = 123.5
123.5/136.6 = 90% pic.twitter.com/fDOMoQwzKt
However, if this is truly the formula Trump used - which is based apparently on trade deficits - this is not a reciprocal tariff but instead a tariff that tries to get manufacturing to come back to the US - something that is likely never gonna happen in any large numbers.
In short, the Trump admin is misleading the American people by labeling this a reciprocal tariff. That's just a wholly false statement.
Such an entirely ridiculous and unnecessary move, and it's going to come back to bite him. Kiss the midterms goodbye. We are going to lose the House and the Senate. So dumb.
I hope Republicans who didn't skip Economics 101 will block this deal.
I'm with you. I could get on board with reciprocal tariffs. If we are instead enacting huge one sided tariffs just to counteract trade deficits, that's insane.
if you are going to pick this fight you have to smack hard coming out of the gate, to effectively deny entry to our market unless concessions are made. Your opponent, who has investments in an existing supply chain has to make hard decisions about whether he is going to abandon the supply chain or open up his own market to your goods. Sure, the wealthier countries will have at least theoretical options to consider, but it will take years for them to restructure and in the meantime they will incur more damage to their economy than they will inflict on ours (by virtue of having a trade surplus with us).
our position is quite strong and concessions from trade partners are a matter of when not if.
Such a silly strategy.
The silliest strategy of all is doing nothing and accepting the status quo, which is what you are advocating.
There are a lot of people in American who see nothing wrong with the status quo
They walk out of their expensive homes in their expensive neighborhoods and see nothing wrong with the current spoils system or how the economic pie is divided up
They are going to learn (by the ballot box or the bullet) how wrong they are
The red light is flashing...and the American electorate is signaling (potentially dangerously) revolutionary impulses
[America's newly elected president may be a demagogue and a populist, but what he is above all is a revolutionary.
In hoping to make America great again, Donald Trump promises to introduce a fundamental, comprehensive and rapid transformation of American political, economic, social and cultural institutions. Such a massive change is what we mean by the term "revolution."]
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4976570-america-has-elected-a-revolutionary-will-he-succeed/
The aversion to tariffs is a foremost luxury belief of the upper classes. THEIR careers are not impacted by a flood of cheap foreign goods……
Their economic demise was the closing down of 60,000 factories and the importing in of 40-50 million 3rd worlders to work for semi-slave wages
What multi-million dollar home in Highland Park are you posting from to be this blind to the economic realities of modern America.
Get out of the Texas Triangle and drive through America sometime
[U.S. manufacturing employment plummeted by one-third, and 60,000 U.S. factories were closed, just between 1995 and 2010]
There is an absolute myth that America's lower and middle classes (economically speaking) are suffering like never before. Access to medical care, the safety net, and ease of life have never been higher. We have severe challenges, but of the scores of billions of human souls that ever existed, almost all of them would prefer to have lived in America, circa 2025.
Success in America requires education, ambition, hard work, and a responsible lifestyle. If you have and do those things, you almost certainly will have a great life. It is not my grandfather's economy or even my father's economy. But it is still a great place to live. I wish we would quit pretending otherwise.
The USA is a great place to live…I would never argue other wise
And yet at the same time it's middle and lower classes are feeling squeezed like never before…
Have you not notice the political tensions we are living under? Politico described it as "pre-revolutionary"
The middle and lower classes are voting consistently for the most outsider candidates they can find and the ones offering "change"
They are signaling with a flashing red light that they are highly discontented with the present economic arrangement.
And it does not matter that you seem to think they are just not working hard enough…
Solve all issues? No, you can never solve all probelms
But you can help bring back good paying jobs.....and good paying jobs help to stabilize society and stabilize communities (especially among the working and middle class)
That in turn makes everything a little easier....politics, social issues, interpersonal relationships.
Imagine tomorrow if you lost your job and could not get another....imagine if everyone you know in the Woodlands (assuming you live there) could also not find a job. What kind of effect would that have on your mental situation and on the mental situation of your family, friends, and community?
2nd and 3rd order effects and all........every real conservative should be able to understand that
[Since 1989, the tragedy of Flint's decline has been repeated in a number of Midwestern cities plagued with shrinking populations, opiate addiction, joblessness, and a pervasive feeling of hopelessness. Flint and nearby Detroit remain the worst-case scenarios of once-proud, unionized, and solidly middle class "motor cities" that have fallen into ruin. After the 2008 crisis, both had their local authority stripped away by the state of Michigan, with emergency managers replacing municipal governments. In Flint, the emergency manager terminated a water contract with the city of Detroit, preferring to draw water from the polluted Flint River and send it down aging pipes to city residents, 42 percent of whom live below the federal poverty line.
[Once a thriving industrial city of nearly a quarter million people, with most residents' employment tied in some way to automobile manufacturing, Flint's population has dwindled to less than 100,000 in the aftermath of auto plant closures during the 1980s. The city has demolished over 5,000 abandoned houses in the last decade. Today, not one grocery store exists within the city.]
[General Motors was at its peak with around 85,000 employees in the 1980s, according to David White, Genesee Historical Society President....
About 90 percent of Flint's wage, salary and shareholder earnings were estimated to come from local General Motors products in 1950, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.
Flint's population boomed from 13,000 to more than 156,000 residents between 1900 and 1930 - a 1,000 percent gain and 17-times the national growth in population, according to MLive-The Flint Journal archives.
The city's population continued to climb and peaked at about 200,000 in the 1960s]
https://brightthemag.com/the-fall-of-flint-e74aded576d9
You believe a tariff that is going to - according to JP Morgan - cost the average American family an additional $5k per year,
Ask the people of Flint Michigan (and the thousands of other towns and cities that used to host 60,000-90,000 American factories) if they would pay $5k a year to stop the deindustrialization of the USA and the destruction of their way of life
Please.....
You might be right that it will take more than 2 years to undue decades of foolish economic policy and damage.
But you are wrong if you don't think something has to be tried.....manufacturing powers are as important today for world power as they were in 1970s and as important as they were in 1870s
You either make things for consumer consumption (building up factories and worker expertise)....that can be turned toward weapons manufacturing in the event of war....or you get run over.
Ask the Ottoman Empire, ask Qing China, ask the CSA, ask anyone.......build or get crushed
[A strong manufacturing base can contribute significantly to a nation's overall power and influence...
A robust manufacturing sector can lead to economic prosperity, technological innovation, and the ability to produce goods and services that are in high demand, both domestically and internationally]
Disagree. Some behavior will immediately change. Easy deals will get finalized. Future work will get papered [enforceable].Mothra said:Sideline themselves? Of course not. They will simply pass along most of the cost of the tariffs to the American consumer, which is of course what always happens. Just like the dealerships I described above.Adriacus Peratuun said:The entire dispute will be done within 3-4 months.Mothra said:No they won't.Redbrickbear said:Limited IQ Redneck in PU said:Great Scott. Tariffs are a tax on you. When Trump puts a 25% tariff on foreign cars, you will pay the difference. Tariffs are an attempt to force you to buy an American made car.ScottS said:I don't see Congress getting rid of income taxes. Get back to me when they do.boognish_bear said:ScottS said:...except the tariffs Trump put on are paid by other countries. Could it be past to the comsumer, yes but you might just buy something US made instead. You don't have to pay the tariff.boognish_bear said:JUST IN: 🇺🇸 JPMorgan says President Trump's tariffs are the largest US tax hike since 1968.
— Watcher.Guru (@WatcherGuru) April 3, 2025
Trump said the tariff money can be used to help eliminate income taxes. So everyone buying American wouldn't help that out...
No, the foreign manufacturer will
They will cut costs and sell the car at a cheap enough price point to be competitive in the US market
Or they will move production of said car to the USA to avoid the tariff....thus creating jobs in the USA
I already have Honda and Toyota dealers that have marked up prices on the vehicles that have arrived since yesterday a full 10%. The idea that foreign manufacturers are going to slash prices is extremely naive.
It will take 5 years to set up manufacturing here. These countries will wait it out the next 2 years, and then when Trump loses congress and these stupid tariffs are overturned, will reclaim their market share.
No global business is going to effectively sideline itself in the USA for two years.
Once the pain level is fully understood, deals will be made.
Foreign business/countries might hate USA tariffs, but they hate uncertainty even more.
And of course it will be easy for the manufacturers to "promise" Trump they will rebuild their factories in Detroit, telling him what he wants to hear, while simply reneging on the deal when he loses Congress in two years or is gone in 4.